I'm all for animal welfare, and support people who go vegetarian for moral or health reasons, but veganism seems moral only to a limit. Skipping leather and things like that makes perfect sense. But what about wool clothing? Sheep need to be sheared, or they'll grow continuously (just google "shrek sheep" and you'll see the problem).
There are reputable companies that treat the animals humanely, and if that's the case, shearing them is about as cruel as brushing a dog's hair. I would find it cruel NOT to shear them.
Thoughts from vegans?
Not a vegan, also interested in hearing some comments
I do agree that there probably are SOME reputable companies however there are others that are not. A real vegan doesn't pick and choose which animal products they think are OK and which are not. There are some that just follow a vegan diet and I suppose they probably wear wool, leather shoes and use normal shampoos, soaps, candles, etc however, people that live their life completely cruelty-free do not use any product from an animal. It is just not possible to actually regulate that you are getting a wool product from a company that takes care of their sheep vs one that leaves them cut and nicked up.
Very good question though! I often wonder why some people make allowances for some products. I myself find it quite hypocritical.
I am vegetarian/vegan. I do not believe 100% that EVERYONE everywhere should give up eating meat. It's a personal decision. Most of why vegans tend to stay away from animal products as fashion is because of the way animals are treated prior to slaughter. Most of this is done inhumanely and for what? Fashion? I personally believe if a person is to slaughter and animal then they should do as the Native Americans did and use EVERYTHING. Not just kill for fun or waste. Most animals like mink or whatever that is used purely for fur and nothing else is ridiculous to me. Wool from a sheep isn't inhumane because the animals don't need to be killed in order to obtain wool for clothing. Nothing is being taken from the animal that cannot be replaced by that animal itself. I personally find nothing wrong with it at all as long as the sheep isn't tortured. That would just be kinda dumb.
Are you a vegetarian or vegan? There is a difference. True vegans do not use ANY product that comes from an animal, whether you believe it is humane or not. This includes shampoo, soap, etc with animal byproducts in them.
I do not use animal byproducts or eat meat but sometimes if things are unavoidable. I tend to go more of the route of vegetarian because where I live not everything is available. Such as dairy free options. Even then, I try to go out of my way to avoid things like that anyway. I do not wear leather or wool or anything obtained from animals. I chose this route for more health reasons and then I really got into understanding the cruelty aspect of it.
I have shared knowledge of cruelty towards animals but people live as they choose. I have chosen the route that I lead in my life, as is the case for everyone else. Passing along information is the best method. Really forcing my beliefs down another persons throat is something entirely different. I have changed a few minds about eating meat and living cruelty free, but ultimately it is a choice that is left up to that individual. I have been vegetarian for over 3 years now and I use cruelty free products. If someone is going to offer me something of that nature I will respectfully decline and offer up information for them. Not everyone is down for a lifestyle change as I have learned over the years.
I am a vegan and I do not wear wool. clearly the person who commented above me has never researched the process that sheep go through to get your wool. Have you ever seen videos? Do you think it is all sweet and smooth like a hair cut? It's not.
Yes I have seen the videos and I DO know. I don't agree with it, that's why I steer clear of it. But other people in the world will continue to wear wool whether my opinion counts to them or not. Removing the cruelty aspect of animal byproducts would be essentially more effective then forcing everyone to go basically "cold turkey" and removing everything from everyone's lives altogether that is taken from an animal. There are people in this world who believe they cannot live without eating meat everyday and will fight you to the death to defend their beliefs. Just because I don't agree with them, and cannot change them doesn't mean they will change my beliefs. Just because I do not agree though, doesn't mean I can't push for more cruelty free options to those that refuse to avoid meat and animal byproducts.
Funny in your first comment you said that you see nothing wrong with wool. You said...
"I personally find nothing wrong with it at all as long as the sheep isn't tortured. That would just be kinda dumb"
Now you are arguing that it is cruel. It is people like you that make people like me look bad. Take a stand...either be for something or against it. Clearly you are just confused in what you believe in and that is fine but don't make real vegans look bad.
And to say things aren't unavoidable is a ridiculous. Everything is avoidable if you want it to be. I have no problem with people who are not vegans....no one else in my family is like me...but at least they don't pretend to be something that they aren't.
Hope you figure out what you really believe in and stop trying to just group yourself into a category that you are clearly not in.
I did say I find nothing wrong with it... as long as the sheep isn't tortured. I also said that if someone will use animal byproducts because,they will if they choose too, I would hope it comes from an environment where in order to obtain items from it that it is not done in a cruel way. You can't stop everyone all over the world from doing as they please. It's free will and human nature. Does it make me happy that people are killing animals for food? No...But I prefer that if it HAS to be done it is done humanely.
I don't put myself in a group label to look cool or sound like I know things I don't. I don't try to go out of my way to make people look bad either. I am a very passive very compassionate person.
And people also don't realize how many things must be avoided to be vegan. Most medicines, Vaccines, insulin.... Even one of the members of PETA who claim to be vegan uses insulin to survive. With the absence of soy replacement cheese in this area, and no other options, it seems kind of redundant to say I am fully vegan when I know I'm not. Embracing Vegan ideals as well as taking into consideration humans right to free will and compassion for animals, I try my hardest but you can't change people, and that is very unfortunate.
Also, for herbivorehippi, I want to throw in that people using "REAL" or "TRUE" (insert label here) are the ones that are really extreme in the sense that they do not really listen compassionately to what other people say about their experiences. I am very iffy about people who exclude other people by using the terms "real" or "true" in regards of elitism. Exercise caution on that one. If you are looking to help people to understand vegan and vegetarianism, you will turn them off completely on the idea by asserting elitism. And that's how you are coming across to me, unfortunately.
As far as vegan/vegetarian thing -- people who say that are usually the ones who are TRANSITIONING between vegetarianism to veganism. There truly is a spectrum. There is no either/or, black/white, etc.
As far as sheep goes, in our area, the farmers here are not corporate in our rural area. That's what Sogno knows. The fact is, farmers here sheer their sheep in a normal, non-painful way because if you agitate them in any way it causes more problems down the road. Plus, it is their livelihood, so why harm them?
I have personally stood in front of a man sheering a sheep. The man was kind and the sheep calm. If I wanted something badly enough that was made of wool I would go somewhere that I could do just that... watch them sheer the sheep and spin the wool... most local places offer that kind of service. If I really wanted to I could go so far as to learn to spin wool myself.
If you like something enough to want to enjoy it long after you transition into becoming vegan.... support your local farmers, or become self sustaining.
It's pretty clear Sogno was being consistent in saying non-fatal products are acceptable if there is no animal cruelty involved, whereas companies that treat the animals inhumanely are not acceptable. Pretty straightforward. Accusing people of hypocrisy when their views are consistent means the only person who is "just confused" is you.
Secondly, we all know it's a fact that 6 billion people won't be convinced of veganism anytime in the near future, and I can tell you with personal experience of fundraising through the snowy winter for the ASPCA with a clipboard and frozen toes that the people who are most detrimental to the cause are people like you.
You accuse people of being immoral, even if they are vegetarian and do not buy products from companies that treat the animals poorly; making enemies with people who support the cause is inexcusably absurd. You may think your vegan superiority makes you a better person, but falsely accusing people of hypocrisy, immorality, confusion, misrepresentation and "making real vegans look bad" is not only incorrect, but extremely rude. I would challenge you to ask yourself how many people you have converted to vegetarianism or veganism, and ask them if they still stick with it. I bet the number is pretty low.
I raised a good $14,000 for the ASPCA. What did you do? So ask yourself who's superior now.
Wow, eslevy. I am so glad I'm your fan. I couldn't have said that any better myself.
Thank you.. For a minute there I felt like I was talking circles around myself lol. I don't think I could have said anything as...direct... as you did. lol I don't like confrontation. What you said is true though. I dislike labeling myself as a vegetarian or a vegan or anything like that because I feel like it limits me in what I am as a person.
Also this kind of debate really rings true if you replace vegan/vegetarian with religion. I like my religion and I will share if someone is interested in listening, but I would no more want to shove my religion down another's throat as I would have done to me. I was talking to Sunny earlier and said... if your man wants a hamburger, he will eat it whether I tell him where it came from or not. It is human nature.
are frogs and fish on the menu? caviar? those poor grapes and rye that i drink?
LOL Ralwus. You're so funny.
ANYTHING that is a creature that has eyes are essentially not on the menu at all when it comes to vegetarianism. Fruits, veggies, wheat, nuts, seeds ... those are the good stuff. Dairy products are totally awesome, too, unless you are vegan. Vegan completely remove any meat by-products, dairy, and anything to do with harming/killing animals from their diet and lifestyle. It's actually a pretty noble cause and quite healthy.
We all have our own little hypocrisies, but I've always wondered: do vegans not understand how a lot of our (plant-based) food in this country is harvested, with machines that chop up/crush animals living in the fields (such as mice and rabbits), and destroy their homes?
I think, if you're super militant about veganism (to the point where you belittle others for not living your lifestyle), you must also buy only hand-picked, locally farmed produce to be sure you're not participating in the slaughter of innocent rodents.
Well said. And it's true, too. The only way to totally be vegan is to be completely self-sufficient. Like have your own self-sustaining farm, grow your own food. Even then, you are still going to risk harming little animals. That is life.
That is very true, Maddie. It's not even JUST that either. If you really want to get technical, how about we get into how trees are cut down destroying animals homes and killing animals to build that house you live in.. Or that mall you shop at... Or the animals that are tested on for the medications you use everyday. Avoiding everything all the time is almost impossible...it's a sad fact of life.
I am a vegan but I still eat meat sometimes. I only have a blue belt in veganism. I have given up the cosmetics and leather, but I still need to stop eating meat and dairy. Hopefully by this time next year I will have my black belt and become a true vegan.
My master is so vegan that he doesn't even blow his nose or sneeze. "The germs are safer nestled in your nasal passages", he told me. I think he is like a fourth or fifth degree black belt. It's pretty impressive.
I am vegan for a choice that I made recently, but that for me is very important. I have some clothing from animals, but I decided to be careful in the future purchases, for consistency.
I've always been curious - are vegans "allowed" to have pets, like dogs and cats? If so, what do they feed them?
I've seen vegetarian cat food (I don't know if it's vegan or not), so I'm sure it's available for dogs too since they're omnivorous and that would make it easier. Seems like a pretty big step to change the eating habits of a natural carnivore, but if it's healthy enough, then whatever.
do do do dah la la la la
sheer them. It won't hurt.
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