I was having an email debate with a U.S. Representative last night via emails back and forth. She's behind the opposition to a bipartisan bill that would ban shipping U.S. horses to Mexico and Canada to be butchered for food. I told her I didn't agree with eating companion animals/pets like horses, dogs, and cats, and she said she saw nothing worng with it. Many of these horses are treated horrifically - much worse than cattle and pigs are in American slaughterhouses. She tried to make me think I was being totally unreasonable, but from what I can find, 80% of Americans are against this practice. So...what do you think?
BTW, I'm not talking about eating a pet/companion animal if you were starving to death.
Oh, and in case you're wondering, she's a Republican. Our former Congressman, a Democrat, also supported horse slaughter. He basically told me that people should be able to do what they want with animals. I had voted for him before, but in 2010 I voted against him and encouraged everyone I knew to do the same, and he lost his re-election bid.
I had read a article about this practice one time, long ago. I agree there should be a more humane practice and there are groups offering 'retirement' homes. Maybe if this issue is more publicized - these 'retirement' homes can have more help and these animals can least live peacefully.
Hi, Dame. I just wrote a hub about the topic, which is what got me into a debate with the Congresswoman. I contacted her after I discovered she was leading the opposition to the legislation that would ban shipping our horses to end up as meat on dinner tables in Europe and Asia.
Personally the issue here for me is down to how animals are treated while alive. I lived on a goat farm in Missouri and had to get used to eating 'pets'. I had a pet goat, Romeo, that I had helped deliver with my mom, I fed him daily and he was my pet. One day he was gone, but since we sold animals to other farms often I didn't worry too much about it, until my mom says to me one evening 'Guess who you'r eating?'
She then told me it was Romeo. My mom was a firm believer in eating whats put in front of you without complaining, and the clean plate club. I really didn't want to eat dinner that had had a name ya know, but there wasn't really much choice with my mum (she isn't like modern moms, she never gave a inch when she said to do something). So I can understand eating a pet and know that ultimately if you eat meat you are eating something that was a living being. Why should a cat be of more value then a cow or goat?
What upsets me is how animals in general are treated. If these horses were being treated lovingly (like Romeo had been when I played with him and fed him daily) then their becoming food wouldn't upset me, food has to come from somewhere. What bothers me is the inhumane treatment they are getting while alive, and horrific slaughtering. If it's not legal to do at home it shouldn't be legal to send the animals to Mexico just to get around local law.
I mostly agree with your points. I couldn't eat a critter with a name, but that's me. When you have a close relationship with an animal and it trusts you completely, I couldn't kill it unless my family and I were starving. My biggest concern, however, is HOW the animals are killed and what they have to endure just prior to death.
Anyone who thinks this way, would be the last sort of person I would want to represent me politically. If she can't see how this practise will make the majority of people feel, then she will not be able to understand how the people she represents think about anything.
I recently read an article about how dairy cattle are slaughtered. I am a vegetarian, but not a vegan, so do drink milk. However I had never considered how dairy cattle are treated at the end of their lives. The cows are stunned at the slaughterhouse, but are still living when they have their legs sawn off. It is sickening, that after a lifetime of giving their milk, which is naturally only intended for their own offspring, that they are so horrifically killed. Humans have a never-ending capacity for evil.
And as bad as conditions are in some U.S. slaughterhouses, they're even worse in Mexico, where there are few regulations. The Congresswoman said that the few kill houses in Mexico that are inspected are better, but she admitted that in the ones that aren't inspected, there are very few regulations.
I think it's horrible and am completely against the killing of horses. Here in the UK I believe they are already slaughtered and end up as pet food, which totally sickens me. They are such beautiful creatures.
I would write a article about gov't officials supporting inhumane practices too shhhh you didn't hear that from me
I love horses. However, anyone who eats meat has to be able to understand that it is a little hypocritical to pick and choose what furry friend is going to end up on the dinner table.
Pigs are much smarter than horses. Will we give up ham and sausage? Cows have the eyes of angels. Should I say no to beef?
I'm sorry. Until we all take up a vegetarian lifestyle I don't feel justified in denying others the meat they choose to eat.
I agree. All animals suffer the same pain and distress. In the West people seem happy to have their roast on a Sunday, but criticise those in other countries for eating different kinds of animals. Different animals are used for different purposes in different parts of the world. Animals are treated just as sickeningly in the West, but people don't realise how horrifically they are treated. All they see is a bit of meat wrapped in plastic on their supermarket shelves, and don't even think of the animal it was cut from.
Again, my biggest objection is in HOW the horses are killed - not THAT the horses are killed. Cows in US slaughterhouses are stunned with a captive bolt gun. Horses in Mexico are often hacked with a knife, just in front of the withers. Even when a captive bolt is used on horses, it's not as effective as it is on cows, due to the position of a horse's brain. In some Canadian kill houses, the horses are shot with a rifle, which is much more humane, in my opinion.
The video you see of the slaughter animals here appears to be humane. I'm sure you've seen the worst of the videos Mexico has to offer. When we raised our own meat, we made sure it was killed on the property. We monitored to ensure they didn't know it was coming.
I have a friend who is a vegetarian. He is a vet who worked in the meat processing industry, verifying animals were healthy before slaughter. He worked in a facility that stayed well within regulatory guidelines. He said the animals knew it was coming. They reacted, with almost human emotion. Some, resolved to their fate. Some kicking and screaming. He claimed the pigs cried.
Murder is murder, though. And that is what we do in order to satisfy our palate. There's no way around it.
Seriously, murder?? You consider killing animals to be murder??
Yet I recall seeing you speak in favor of a woman's "right" to abortion, if I'm not mistaken.
Taking away a life is murder. I realise that most humans believe that we are unique and that God put animals on Earth to be eaten by humans. They therefore believe animals do not suffer pain or distress, which they view as something experienced only by humans. However, this goes against scientific evidence.
Having had cats who have died, in obvious agony, which was particularly distressing, it is obvious to me, that they experience exactly what we experience. And people are perfectly happy to eat young animals, but would be distressed if their own children were to be eaten by another animal. Young animals are the children of other species. I never understand how humans manage to compartmentalise their feelings. I have never been able to do this. When I see a piece of meat on a butcher's slab, I know that it was once part of a living sentient creature, which had as much right to life as we humans do.
Actually, taking away a life is 'killing'.. murder implies criminality...
Whether the killing of a given animal is classified as 'murder' is a legal issue law, and whether it should be is a personal belief... but in an of itself 'killing' does not automatically mean 'murder'.
I respect people who have empathy for animals.. but personally, i feel a chicken's 'right to life' ends where my appetite begins.
Your idea of a chicken's right to life is all too common, and is I believe evidence that humans have not evolved as far as we like to think we have. We may have civilisation, but scratch the surface, and we are all naked apes at heart.
Eh...speak for yourself, 'cause I'm not a naked ape, nor any kind of ape, at heart nor literally!
I understand that we are from different species to each other. I am evolved from a common ancestor to man and modern apes, whilst you are descended from Adam and Eve, who were created by God six thousand years ago. Maybe this explains why our views are so different.
If a naked ape was yummy, I would eat one too
Unless the definition has been changed via some act of liberalism, no, taking away just any life is not murder! Murder means the killing of a human being.
If one wanted to go by your view, then the sport of fishing would be a murderous act. (Some fish have even been heard to "cry".)
I do very much agree that it's wrong to kill anything just for the "fun" of killing (and even most fishermen will throw a fish back into the water), and I have pets (as I said before); and I know they can feel pain. But your definition and scenario is messed-up, seriously. I'm not gonna feel sorrow when I spray a nest of wasps on my front porch. Do you?
Yes, the term murder is only applied to the killing of a human being, because as we humans are the dominant animal on the planet, we get to make the rules. However, as a vegetarian, I recognise that I am an animal and that I have no more right to life than does any other animal. I realise you believe in God, and will therefore believe that God made animals to be consumed by humans. However, as evolution shows that humans are a recent development on planet Earth, I cannot understand why God would have created all of the other animals millions of years before humans, if their only puropse was to be farmed and consumed by our own species.
I am a realist, in recognising that animals have evolved to eat other animals, and therefore realise it is part of nature. However as someone who believes in the equality of all living creatures, and as humans are supposedly the most evolved animal, then I have developed enough to recognise the rights of my fellow creatures. I don't believe that the Earth was awaiting our coming and that animals were awaiting our dominion over them. And along with evolution of the human mind, comes a responsibility to care for other animals, and to think differently than did our primitive ancestors. There are plenty of things which ancient man saw nothing wrong with, such as slavery and genocide, however, most humans have thankfully grown out of this now, and it is my hope that we will eventually evolve out of our animal nature in other areas.
It is common knowledge in the horse industry that horse slaughter remains rampant. In 2004 the US government has enacted the Burnes Amendment to the Wild Horse and Burro act of 1971. The act effectively does the following:
1. It amends the 1971 Wild Free-Roaming Horse and Burro Act to allow the sale of wild horses for processing into commercial products.
2. It adds a new subsection to the Act, creating a "horse sale" requirement that mandates that BLM sell " without limitation, at local sale yards or other convenient livestock selling facilities" all wild horses who are either over 10 years old, or who have been offered for adoption 3 times unsuccessfully. BLM is required to continue to sell horses until all these "excess animals" are disposed of, or AMLs (appropriate management levels) are reached in all herd management areas.
3. It exempts horses bought pursuant to the new "horse sale" program from the criminal provisions of the Act that make it a crime to process or permit to be processed into commercial products the remains of a wild horse or burro.
Check out the Wild Horse Preservation website for more information.
This youtube video was recently released shows a lot of information and images:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvWBtoQ3 … redirect=1
Information on a recent case was published in horseback magazine:
BLM mustangs are very smart and emotional. I own one. They problem solve. They get mad when you go out of town. They use deductive reasoning.
How in the world do you jump from a conversation on the ethical treatment of animals to abortion? I’m only going to respond to that part by saying that abortion is not murder. Anyone that calls it that is purposely attempting to emotionalize the issue.
As to the murder comment about animals. We kill them Brenda. What else would you call it? I am not a vegetarian, but, I am at least willing to call it what it is. We kill animals so that we can eat them. I suppose you would prefer to call it justifiable homicide? Animal slaughter? Do you consider man slaughter to be murder?
I raised animals for personal consumption and one of the reasons I did it was because I felt uncomfortable with the meat processing industry. The giant feed lots to fatten the cattle. The pig processing plants. I wanted to make sure that the animals I consumed were treated ethically and compassionately.
I think everyone should have to stare their dinner in the face at some point, prior to cooking it. I think we’d eat a little less meat as a nation.
You answered my question. You think it's murder to kill an animal, but it's not murder to kill a human being!
That's seriously messed up.
Brenda calling me messed up doesn't change facts. It simply means your post is rude.
I was referring to you ideas and your perceptions being messed up. That's not rude, considering you posted a description of murder that's not factual.
I think, anyone willing to condemn others; for not holding the same values they do is wrong. If that is messed up, I could care less.
I will never consciously put myself into a position to insult, belittle, degrade or in any other manner hurt another human being by judging them for decisions they make for themselves. It is not my right. It isn't yours either. If you think it is, you might simply be confused on who is the one messed up.
You missed the point. Those aren't values. Those are facts (about the definition of murder, etc.)
You missed the point Brenda. You cross the bounds of decency and courtesy by pushing your point. Believe it, or not, the most important fact you miss is that your behavior is unchristian
When did my Faith even come into this discussion?
We talked about the definitions of murder.
Look it up in the dictionary if you don't believe me.
Otherwise, there's no use discussion it any further.
You were taking about abortion. Don't pretend your 'faith' wasn't pushing your argument.
Well, I readily admit that I have Faith, indeed. But I also do hold to the fact that there are many people who believe abortion is murder, and not all of them are Christians. The facts of life do pertain to people who aren't Christians.
But there are other threads where we could discuss that, if you're bent on making it a specific personal argument. Whatever!
My wife once had a dog come up missing permenantly...while living close to people who professed that they did eat dog in their own country...??!
I think of the FFA students who are given a calf to raise and care for...only to have it auctioned off at a livestock show at the end.
And...If I ever have a pet catfish...his time will as be limited on earth as an Extra on the original Star Trek series....getting beamed down next to Spock, Kirk, or McCoy!
That being said...Who would really want to eat dog?
I've eaten it. To be polite. It's not that bad.
Speaking of fish....ya know those college kids and whoever it is who swallow goldfish on a dare?.....I say they're committing not just murder but premeditated torture leading to murder!
This is an regional topic . So, some people like to it , but some are does not interested about us . This is conditional parts of ours all human life and different imagine .
How many people on this thread have been in an American slaughter-house-never mind the horrors of a Mexican one- where bolt guns don't work so well. Its not rare. Does anyone want a detailed description of what happens to the cows? How many have seen dogs of all breeds crammed into cages on the street , looking at you with sad and pleading eyes as one by one they're inhumanely butchered. This post is no dictum, but if as a human civilization we treat fellow mammals-whatever their "intelligence level"- like this and say its alright for any reason, can we then truly call ourselves an enlightened civilization in anything else.
I've been in a couple of American slaughterhouses, and they definitely aren't all equal. Some of the killers are skilled and honestly don't want the animal to suffer any more than it has to. Others, however, don't care about the animals' suffering at all. A friend of mine went into a Mexican horse slaughterhouse and was horrified.
Yes, I eat meat. I wish I didn't like it. I NEVER take a single bite of meat without thinking that it was once a living, breathing creature. Well, to be honest, I don't usually think about that when I'm eating shrimp. If we're going to be meat eaters, we at least need to give the animals some quality of life, along with a quick, painless (as possible) death.
Can't we be meat eaters and still be concerned with animal torture?
And how the heck did this thread get on abortion????
I said murder. It went downhill from there. We're done with the aside.
Hi habee, thank you. You bring up a good point. The problem often comes from cutting corners for the sake of profit. Most workers that do this onerous job do their best to kill the animals as mercifully as possible when the proper guide-lines and equipment is in place. The job has a tendency to cause callousness as a defense against the psychic toil of killing on an industrial scale. For the most part these folks should be sympathized with. The problem again is when the guide-lines are not followed and equipment is not keep in top operating order.
I'm with you on the animal flesh. Being a lacto-vegetarian(eggs, milk, cheese,etc) seems a good middle ground to strive for in one desiring to cease beef, pork and fowl. Some folk choose to eat only small portions of meat and don't particularly enjoy it when they do. Its not so much a matter of choice as it is method. In a perfect world perhaps safe synthetic good tasting flesh could replace the present way. Of course that has the potential to create another problem as concerns employment dis-placement for example. There are no easy answers but I do believe the time has come for humanity to make choices on how we want to proceed into the future with this- in far too many cases- brutal situation.
No matter how you look at it, we are still a PART of food chain. Eat or be eaten. Can you stop eating meat? Until then you don't have a right to talk about it. You ARE in it. You ARE the monster, a carnivorous animal. Me too, me too. I have a cooked chicken in my lunch bag. The point that I did not kill him personally is not valid. He is still being killed for the pleasure of mine.
All i know is..if the animals and humans were both starving. the animal would not hesitate to look at you as dinner...
This is very true. But we humans do like to pretend that we are different to the rest of the animal kingdom. We shower and have qualifications. We listen to Mozart and have lavender scented toilet cleaner. We read poetry and laugh at George W. Bush. Yet experience a bit of grumbling in our stomach, and our fangs come out and we sink them into the nearest pet pussy. We aren't all that different after all.
Exactly the reason why I do not believe into 'intelligent design' - nothing intelligent can be in this juxtaposition.
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