My Lambretta GP 200 Restoration
After many years stored in the shed,I finally decided that it was time to get it back on the road, little did I know at that time what I was letting myself in for.
I started in 2008 by wheeling it out for stripping down,it was only then that the sorry state it was in, became apparent to me, still it had to be done, and the final restoration would be worthwhile even though at the time I was not aware of what I was to experience.
After I had removed the engine and all the parts it was then I had to find someone to restore the bodywork as the paintwork was in a sorry state, first stop was a friend who was into spraying cars, big mistake that was, never ever use friends, he had all the bodywork for over a year, then decided that he was packing the business in, so had to get everything back and start again.
As I had stripped the engine it was then I decided to look round for someone to do a rebore ,this was a problem as there had been demise of Scooter dealers in the area, so I had to find any information on engineers experienced in scooter rebores, but after a search I found one who I thought may be able to be of some assistance. It was also whilst there that It was mentioned that he also did resprays, great back on track, or so I thought took everything there for shotblasting and respraying, paid up front for the shotblasting, then waited, waited and waited. Then it seemed that this restore was doomed to failure, it was mentioned that he too had to close down, but he would start doing mine and should have it done before the closure. Eventually went to pay for and collect the finished paintwork, it was only when I got home and really took a detailed look at the work that I realised what a bad job had been done, but thought it may look different after it had been "flattened and polished ", so another search for a sprayer. This led me to the final part of the work being done by someone who actually knew his job, I took the parts I needed to be done, then came another shock,he told me that he had only touched the paintwork very lightly with his buffer to do the polishing, and the next thing it was down to the undercoat, this was annoying to say the least as I had myself located and purchased the paint to do the job from AMD in Ellesmere Port, so that I would be sure that the correct paint was used, in total I gave him two Litres of Rosso Red as per the spec required,I was informed by Phil at Dreamland Motor Cycle Paint Shop .co.uk (contact 07933 651 305), who was doing the job for me now that he could have sprayed a Transit van with that amount. So now it was decided that it would need doing from scratch, so left everything with Phil in the knowledge that at last it would be sorted by a reputable paintwork specialist, this he has done using less than half the amount of 500ml extra paint I supplied,and very impressed with it so far.Having paid twice for bodywork/paintwork it is now down to me to rebuild the engine and restore or replace any of the parts to the engine and the final build, this was another eye opener. I shall start now to include some photo's of the before ,during and finally the finished project.
I am nearing the finish of the assembly of the body parts but progress is continually being delayed by my disgust with the quality of some of the parts that are being sold, I will be including some photo's of the worst I have come across, and will be going through my invoices and naming and shaming them, one supposedly a "Innocenti badge" being sold on ebay as NOS, this is going back as it has a defect, and also it is nothing like the original and not a very good copy at that..............more to follow.
Not much more to add at the moment as I have been busy fine tuning the engine,well when I say fine tuning I don't mean tuning for speed etc.just making sure that I am happy with the engine and all the internals are sound before I put the crankcase cover back on again, before I finish off adding the rest of the bodywork, for instance I am thinking of changing the gear endplate, for one of the earlier ones with the ramp mounted in the casing, mainly to ease the stress on the endplate studs.I have also been modifying another rectifier for 12 volt lights, Will be posting some more photo's soon, but I have to repeat again the quality of parts being sold are to say the least abysmal, and I am sure that there are many others that will agree with me, seeing the comments on some of the forums, the manufactures of these remade parts have not got an understanding of the meaning of the phrase "fit for use", and have little or no Quality Control,or final inspection, I think that it is about time something is done about it,as I am fed up having to buy various parts in duplicate or triplicate to get one suitable,will be providing samples shortly,mean while back to the engine.
After giving it some thought I decided that I would do some more work on the engine,replace the kickstart shaft, plunger etc, and instead of the back plate with the ramp built into it I decided to eliminate the extra stress and strain on the back plate via the kickstart, I am reverting back to the older style,with the ramp located in the casing,acquired a backplate from Barry Turner and ground the ramp off, fitted the ramp into the casing,I then found that the endfloat was at the maximum so back to Barry for some extra spacers,now have a reasonable setup,but on assembling the clutch found the the spring that locate in the basket the gap was too big so going to have another go with another spring and/or basket to be on the safe side.
I have sorted out the lights and ignition, all working ok, but think I will need to get hold of a new horn this one is a bit iffy. Badges have been put on the legshields, next the rubbers then I think after that its time to put some juice in and see if it fires up.
Should be finished this weekend if no more foul ups ,started refitting the bodywork again, delayed with this due to (sorry to have to go on about it ) parts that are incorrect or don't fit, example I started to fit the legshield runner boards to find that on lt two of them(the inners) were the incorrect ones, then found that a so called horncast fitting kit did not have the two bolts /screws for the top by the headset,so another visit to Barry, if I had known at the outset I would never have bothered with online, as it ends up a bit of a lottery and more expensive in the long run.I have said it before and will repeat it some form of monitoring should be in place for aftermarket sales,if I had not bought them a long time ago I would be sending them back or reporting them, as selling items not fit for purpose, still I have all the invoices and have made a note of the ones not to use in future.The aftermarket for Lambrettas leaves a lot to be desired, there are only a few dealers selling parts that are fit for the job,,just purchased a new horn locally that just "pings",took it back, it was tested on a scooter with no battery obviously an ac machine and as mine is battery dc, it is no wonder it works on that machine, but not mine, no offer of changing it, or refund just comments to the effect, that mine must be pushing out too much volts, also bought an airhose that has parts of the rubber inside the bellows,this would hinder the airflow to the carb, not there on my original, which unfortunately has splits on the top ,otherwise would be using that one, in fact I may even try to repair it as it is far better than this one, needless to say I won't be using that dealer again,I have found that the only reliable one locally is Barry at Scooter Warehouse,and he is also very helpful with advice
I found some old photographs of one of the last times the scooter was used, and have uploaded them to show what is capable with a GP200, took both my Wife and myself down to Torquay and the following year, down to Newquay with a load of luggage and two up,never once missed a beat, all the way there and back,apart from the last time to Newquay, when the oil seals went, good job we were not camping that time, had the engine stripped down and rebuilt in a caravan all good fun.
Finally decided to fit electronic ignition, this has led to a few confusing episodes,as this was originally a battery model decided to keep it that way, and following the LCGB workshop wiring for that particular model, came across few problems, to start with the colours of the wires from the stator did not match up with any of the diagrams, Lammydave on the forum came to the rescue identifying it for me, that was one problem sorted out, so was able to connect up the cdi.Then came across problems with the regulator once again Lammydave came to the rescue and sent me a DC regulator, then the problem was how to wire it up following the workshop instructions again, I chopped off the bullet connectors from the wiring loom, replaced them with the recommended spade connectors,connected the red/grey together, fitted spade connector then connected it to the B+ terminal on the regulator, then did the same to the brown/purple but as it says to connect to the output terminal of the lighting regulator cannot decide which this terminal it is.The original coil wire has been connected with a spade connector and fitted to the only green terminal on the regulator.This leaves the only terminals remaining available as two red coloured terminals and a yellow one, as per the wiring diagram, with the yellow (brown) from the stator connected to the cdi, this leaves just two red terminals spare,so I have now to find out which of these terminals, if any are the correct "output terminal". bit confusing but will get there in the end ,failing that will just have to wire it as a non battery model.have included some pics of the cdi fitted and the regulator partially fitted,will add the results later as I sort it out. Update ....Well when all else fails contact the people who should know i.e. Mark Broadhurst at MB Products, spoke to Phil who then spoke to Mark and the answer, did not sort out the problem, the "output" is the B+ terminal,but he told me Mark has said that in two weeks they have a new regulator coming out that will do everything I need,so roll on two weeks. So I have removed the regulator that cannot be used as dc as commented by "firekdp" and have got another one from "Ricambi" that has the four terminals two marked G and one marked A plus an earth terminal so will wire it up as "firekdp" recommended red ,purple and grey together, just need to know what happens with the brown from the loom.Is it any wonder there is confusion over the fitting of electronic ignition,doing a trawl of sites I came across instructions for fitting electronic ignition on Cambridge Lambretta's site,this is what confuses me ,Wiring instructions, take the two green wires (joined) from your main wiring loom,these need to be fitted with a lucar connector and then plugged into the remaining green on the cdi. Make sure the green wire that was on your old coil is taped up and not earthed in any way, this wire is no longer used...............who is right?????????? Well there is that many different ideas on wiring, there is no way I could be confident in the setup, so have decided that this will be the last update as it is going back in the shed for another few years until there is a standardised method of wiring, or will go back to points, dead simple and easy wiring can't go wrong with that system might have its faults, but nothing compared to getting this wiring straight, fed up throwing money at it and getting nowhere. Well the plot thickens as suggested I decided to just see what difference there was with all these regulators,so set off to local Vespa dealer to get as suggested by Kev (firekdp) a later PX or LML regulator,they did not have any ducati DC ones but had an RMS which they said is used on the LML's ,so thought ok will have one, got home and found it is "identical" to the one Lammydave sent me,gets better by the day,anyway I have bunched up all of the loom wires and once I get confirmation of which of the green wires goes to the cdi ( the two green wires or the single green one from the loom) will finish up the wiring and see what happens. Well it looks as though the regulator saga will be coming to an end.I have had information sent to me by "Firekdp" that should be of interest to anyone that is attempting to restore a battery dc system with electronic ignition. I cannot believe something that is so simple with the original points and condenser DC system that came with the scooter out of the factory ,could be so confusing and complicated with the upgrading to the 12 volt electronic system. Anyway Kev(firekdp) has been very helpful and I am sure he knows what he is talking about,so much so that I have asked him if it is alright for me to pass on the helpful information he has sent me and he has agreed.So I will be including this info which includes a wiring diagram that should make it a lot easier for anyone else restoring a Lambretta to DC battery operated systems.
I hate to have to keep going on about this issue on parts that people are selling,another on the ongoing saga,I decided (sorry for the pun) to splash out on a stainless stand and splash guard,the hooks that I got did not look right ,but thought will try them and see ,it turned out that I was right, the angle of the bend was way out on the hooks, and the stand just waggles about,informed the person and was told that he has them on his, and sold many with no problem,well probably because the buyers have had to modify them to fit, rather that send them back,if people selling goods made sure that they were right in the first place would be a better world for scooterists.
Not much happened apart from fitting the regulator that is supposed to be the correct one for what I need.wired everything up took a chance on isolating the two green wires, fitted an isolator switch to the battery feed,connected the battery turned the key to check the lights and only the speedo and the headlight worked though the dip,the backlight or the stoplight and the horn just squeaked.I contacted Kev telling him what was happening or was "not" happening,I was then informed that the lights only work through the ac circuit...this to me was daft, as what is the point in fitting a battery, for it not to function, as it should do. I pointed out that under the points system that I had converted to 12 volt lighting and that I had originally fitted,everything worked from a turn of the key from the "battery" without having to start the engine, for the ac circuit to kick in, this says a lot for the system employed by Innocenti whether it be 6 or 12 volts it works,unlike this system,I am trying to understand why it is that there is a need for an ac/dc regulator in the first place apart from generating cash flow adding to the many types that are available. Also wondering if it is worthwhile continuing or going back to points /condenser, which is a lot more simpler to fit and apart from the points issue, it works with less hassle.
Well I have decided that for now anyway to stop wasting time trying to get this setup, with electronic ignition working as dc, and to put the points and condenser system back on,cannot understand how it works the lights without the engine running, yet put the electronic regulator on and it don't ,to me it just points to the regulator not being suitable for the dc system, yet it is supposed to be the correct one, so maybe another wiring loom is what is required for this regulator, and I am not going down that path, a lot easier to replace it (electronic ) with one that works ( points), or just use it as ac,which defeats the whole object of the use of the parts fitted,the regulator is supposed to be both ac and dc.
Well at last thanks to the Lambretta Club Forum in particular "soulsurfer( Mike) and Knowledge (Mark)" plus mainly "Firekdp", there appears to be light at the end of the tunnel. It appears that anyone wanting dc lighting system on a Lambretta with a SIL stator, need to modify the stator, forget about using any vespa regulators, apparently the one you require, is a good old British bike part in the form of a BSA /Triumph. regulator, ( these are available on ebay just do a search for them they are listed as described ), this along with the modification to the stator solves all of my problems,( I hope),and the regulator is a lot cheaper than the recommended 5 pin one, sorry Mark B , but this one seems to be the way to go,once again thanks to Firekdp,Knowledge and Soulsurfer from LCGB forums and firekdp (Kev ) for pointing me in the "right " direction.I have ordered the regulator off ebay and will let you know the results.
Have added another photo of the face behind Scooter Warehouse Barry Turner another who has been very helpful, to me and also many other local scooterists,not only a dealer but also attends lots of rideouts either as a trader or sometimes as a riding scooterist, note he made a point of removing his hat ,though I wanted it left on,as you rarely see him without one on. You have to give praise were it is due to decent dealers when you find one these days, the ones that need naming and shaming not worth mentioning, as they know who they are as we all do l. Other dealers I would recommend are MB Products for quality,and also Scooter Restorstions are about the best of online for Lambretta parts.,and finally Lambretta restore for that simply rear view mirror attachment ,a must for today's scooters.
I have included a wiring diagram that has been supplied by Kev (firekdp) this is the one for 12 volt dc and according to soulsurfer and others it does work, I have not been able to install it yet as I have to take apart the previous wiring replacing some of the spade connectors with brass bullet connectors and vice versa and it's too bloody cold at the moment, have made a start removing the last regulator, have to make a bracket to go with this regulator,and to remove the flywheel to modify the stator,then it should be finally sorted to the way I want it.
I have decided to incorporate into the wiring of mine a dc junction box in order to keep the wiring tidy and as near to original as possible.Will be adding the photo's as I do it.
For Information purposes contains nothing that can be claimed as malicious and is all done with just cause by presenting the facts as I know them.There has been ample opportunity for an explanation to be given but none has been made.
Have had an interesting experience of late with one of the dealers I have been going on about previously, I am waiting for some sort of an explanation regarding a PWK Carb I ordered, when or I should say "if" I get reply, I will be uploading, it will be a warning to be very careful what, and how you order,as there have been some really mysterious happenings that I am trying to get answers to,will keep you informed.
Where do I start, well looking to after I have run the scooter in, I thought it was time to look for a newer carb,so after much searching through the forums I decided to go for a PWK24mm. I looked at various prices and decided to take the foreign route and use a dealer I had used once before and had no problem with that order, despite various reports of others having problems. So I went on google found the website, scrolled down to "Lambretta" clicked on "fuel",this took me to "carbs and parts" looked for what I was after ,found "PWK Kit ( two identical photographs of the same kit) clicked on one and added it to the basket, along with the air filter to suit , decided to pay the extra shipping for FedEx to cut down on delivery time, paid via paypal on 28th February 2011,then sat back and waited for it to arrive. The package arrived on Monday 7th. March 2011,then to my surprise found that it only contained the following, the carb plus manifold rubber, the airfilter and nothing else.This seemed strange so e-mailed the supplier got a reply saying, that was what I ordered just the carb, and not the carb and kit,explained the process of how I ordered and was sent a link to what I was supposed to have used to order, "carbs only" page,this was not available to me from the page I ordered from, and could not find that page for carbs only except from clicking on the link that was sent to me in the e-mail,so then I got very suspicious and started looking further into my order and found some mysterious figures,that I have asked for an explanation of and have not to date had any reply explaining these weird figures.
More to follow explaining what I am on about ,and will leave it to yourselves to draw any conclusions.
The mysterious figures are as follows,will try to keep it as simple as I can.
When I quiried the order I was told to look at the e-mail of my order,I will admit I had not done so ,if I had I would have cancelled it there and then,because as I thought I had ordered a PWK Kit,in fact it turned out to be just the Carb and filter with prices as follows on the e-mail
carburettor 24mm PWK
then we have to look at the exchange rate as follows for 28/2/2011 $81.99 = £50.40,....$13.49 = £8.29...shipping $30.85 = £18.97.........TOTAL £78.66
The invoice that came with it is as shown in the photograph,with prices of Carb $20.50 and Air Filter $ 3.37 shipping $30.85........Total $54.72.
converted to English Pounds..carb £12.60............air filter £.2.07.........Shipping £18.97.. Total = £ 33.64 ..........Then I find that I have paid £81.99 both on paypal and same amount from my bank account............Do these figures make any sense, well not to me .........what do you think. The only figure that is consistent is the shipping.........Which figures are right I don't know, and cannot get an explanation, all I know is that £81.99 has been taken from my account.
In my opinion the invoice shows that I should have paid $54.72 or in other words £33.64 when in fact I was charged £81.99 and still no explanation.
I have just been wondering how long I would have been in business when I was a Full Time Professional Photographer, if when someone order a photograph advertised at £50 then sent an invoice after payment with the order of £2.50 pence,How this business is still going is beyond me.
Well finally come to the end of the restoration,be adding the final chapter later and what an ending,well it is now just cosmetic finishing touches then MOT and off we go,will add some more later.
Finally finished and Insured and MOT'd,but not on the road "yet", final snag I found out on visiting local DVLA that there are no details of the machine on their system.
What happens next really annoys me,even though I have a V5, the last two MOT certificates dated 1974 and 1975,plus even the Hire Purchase agreement dated 1971,they have no details,with all that I thought it would be plain sailing........no I have to get it "authenticated" by the LCGB, I just don't get this, an organisation run by the Government, has to have details authenticated by an organisation of non paid volunteers, of an organisation, this could lead to something new ,perhaps we could be involved more in Governing the country by being allowed to authenticate all the decisions the Government make in the future,don't think so somehow.
Anyway the information has been sent off for authenticating ( getting to like this word more and more),after all that has gone on with the restoration and getting it legal ,I am beginning to wonder if it is actually worth keeping it and riding it and instead sell it.
For the benefit of anyone else restoring a vehicle of any sort be it motorcycle ,car or scooter,anything that has been involved with the DVLA,If you don't have a V5c Registration Document then there will be no details of the said vehicle as it does not exist, according to the DVLA system,Why....because when the DVLA went computerised in 1983 any vehicle not being used on the road for whatever reason,did not get put on the computer and like me I bet there are many up and down the country been placed in a similar position,whereas at the time the DVLA should have/could have, wrote to all those requesting what was happening to the vehicle ,would it be requiring a new registration document,if it was me ,the cheapest way would just to send them out to everyone and enter the details on the system,but then Government run Departments don't know the meaning of "common sense" .
I am beginning to understand the meaning of the word "frustration",after spending hundreds or more like over a thousand pounds, and hours restoring the scooter it is nowhere near getting it on the road due to the absolutely "stupid " system in this country makes me wonder if it is at all worthwhile.Still awaiting for it to be authenticated by the LCGB,possibly next week .All this even though in my possession are the "original documents i.e. original V5 (though now obselete,as you now require the "European one V5c), two MOT certificates dated 1974 and 1975 ,the "original" hire purchase agreement dated 1971,It was actually "bought in this country" here in Liverpool by myself and has been in my possession ever since, and is not one of the recent "imports", what more does one need to prove this scooter is "authentic",and has always been "owned" by myself, as it came from Italy maybe a letter from the Pope might help,though I doubt if even that would be enough for this DVLA ,it is so annoying to have paid out all of this money, and time, plus Insurance, and MOT, plus an authentication fee, and still not being able to use it on the road. Probably as soon as the weather breaks, and it starts "raining" will be when it is ready for the road, then I will not be in the mood to trundle round at 30 mph running it in, "FRUSTRATED"...............you bet.
Frustration has now turned to down right annoyance,I have just been informed by LCGB that even when they return the paper work to me it takes the DVLA "four weeks " to actually register it, What do these people actually get paid to do,it is only a matter of hitting keys on their system,what a waste of taxpayers money .
Completely lost interest in Scootering,especially with misleading information, putting it back in the shed,or may break it up and weigh it in for "scrap",going back to the bigger two wheels putting my motorbike back on the road,did not have the "hassle" with that even though it was an Italian import,good thing about the motorbike is that the bigger wheels are a lot safer.I will also be deleting this blog at the end of the month.
For anyone in the UK that requires a scooter authenticating,I have just found out that there is a much better,cheaper and more important quicker means of doing so than LCGB, pity I found this out too late, but this information must be of use to anyone else that requires it, it is by Pete Davis at British Lambretta Archives..........contact him at email@example.com
Finished fitting the "genuine Nannuci" legshield glove box but need to make some stronger brackets,it will do for now though,also changed the fuseholder due to the other one not making contact all the time,this one is much better has modern mini fuses and is waterproof.So thats it for now all done apart from fitting panel locks,and have a few adjustments to make to the legshield glove box due to the disforming of the panels when shotblasted, if I was starting again I would not recommend shotblasting,would try something different.Its annoying to spend money preparing panel work and then find out what fitted properly just does not anymore, without gentle persuasion,perhaps given time in may settle in, another problem with the sandblasting appears to have led to fuel starvation, had a few episodes of the engine cutting out ,at first thought it might have seized ,but it started first kick.On removal of the carb and fuel tap I found grit choking both the filter on the carb and the fuel tap,cleaned it off for now,but thought need another tank to sort this one out properly,so searched around and found that Andy Francis was doing some Italian ones..great so ordered one.In these days when some dealers are just selling anything that they can make a buck out of ,it is very uplifting to get a phone call from Andy this morning about my order,he said that the tanks he has left are not very good,he is not happy with sending one out to me ,I inquired as to what the problem was ,if the internals were ok I was not worried about the appearance,and went on to explain what my problem was and that this was just a stopgap ,and as long as it was free of grit I had no problem with him sending it out to me,he said all that was wrong was that there were a few wrinkles on the underneath side of the tank,not a problem just send it ,he said he will give it a good check over and blow it out before he sends it out on Monday.How refreshing to have the dealer actually ring and explain ,some would just send it out and then you ,if not happy have the job of sending it back for a refund.Another dealer that is worth adding to the ones to deal with.Andy Francis Scooters.
In my opinion anyone that is, or has restored a genuine Lambretta that came with the "original keys",must get a spare set of keys and use the spare set and keep the "originals" in a safe place,the person who can provide these is Jem Booth and they are resonably priced and very good quality, he can be contacted at...................firstname.lastname@example.org
Thank for all the suggestions .Especially Lammydave, byron, Firekdp (Kev) and anyone else I haven't mentioned,
GP 200 Before and after
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