Electrolyte For HHO Fuel - What Not To Use in Your HHO Dry Cell or HHO Generator

Don't Ruin Your HHO Dry Cell

Using the right catalyst for HHO gas production in your hho dry cell
Using the right catalyst for HHO gas production in your hho dry cell

Your HHO Dry Cell or HHO Generator and Electrolyte

Baking Soda for Water Fuel a NO NO Part 2

Using Baking soda as an electrolyte to produce hho gas :
Empirical tests have shown that using baking soda as an electrolyte gives a false sense of security. Baking soda will not only remain baking soda in use, but also cause permanent damage to the electrode surfaces in your hho generator during its transition into sodium hydroxide.

Note Baking Soda is very dangerous to use.
Empirical tests have shown that after the gas was analyzed, there is hydrogen, some CO2, also enough CO to be lethal. There is NO oxygen produced until ALL of the carbon has been reacted from solution. It is not suitable to state that the gas produced is to be burned and not inhaled. Many "water fuel" experimenters who use baking soda are burning the gas when they are doing their experiments. Most are venting the gas into the air in the room they are in, and even those that DO burn the gas in an engine often-times have leaks in their Hydrogen on demand systems.

Baking soda will permanently damage the surface structure of stainless steel. That is why it has to be sanded or ground off, and then the cleansing and conditioning of your hho dry cell started all over again.

Baking soda does not lose potency; it decomposes as a part of the reaction during electrolysis. Some carbon binds with the electrodes and causes damage to the surface structure, the rest of the carbon binds with oxygen to produce other products of reaction during electrolysis. While it is still baking soda, it does not produce hho gas, it produces a blend of hydrogen (H2), carbon monoxide (CO), and carbon dioxide (CO2). As this occurs, the baking soda is transformed into NaOH, sodium hydroxide. This is why it keeps on working, but only as the carbon is consumed does it change into hho gas.
A reliable and repeatable performance increase is not going to happen during the decomposition phase of baking soda. It will eventually stabilize, but not until all of the carbon is consumed.

If your looking to “escape” the usage of caustics by using of baking soda in your HHO Dry Cell keep reading.

Baking soda decomposes into NaOH during electrolysis; you end up with a caustic material anyway. The worst part of this is, the end users are lulled into a false sense of security, thinking that it remains safe baking soda. So they are more prone to not take proper safety precautions. And if you are using expensive stainless steel electrodes in your hho dry cell, they become damaged as the carbon will also poison the catalytic capabilities of stainless steel. Salt is also unsuitable as is battery acid. To recover the damage done to your hho generator would require a real good sanding to get rid of the surface damage and start over.

DO NOT USE BAKING SODA IN YOUR HHO GENERATOR PERIOD END OF STORY!

Further you would have to add 84 grams of baking soda (NaHCO3) to obtain the same amount of sodium as you would for 40 grams of Sodium Hydroxide (NaOH). This is relevant because it is the Sodium that is driving the electrolysis process.
On electrolysis of NaHCO3, the Na+ ion will rush to the cathode and you will get:-
2Na+ + 2e- + 2H2O -----> 2NaOH + H2 and HCO3- + H2O -------> H2CO3 + OH-
Also
H2CO3 --------> H2O + CO2
Also
CO2 + 2H+ + 2e- -----> CO + H2O
Also
CO + 2H+ + 2e- ------> C + H2O

Conclusion: On adding NaHCO3 a whole range of chemical processes can take place but due to the nature of alkali metals, the one sure conclusion is that Hydroxides will be formed. DO NOT BE DECEIVED into thinking that if you make a completely safe electrolytic solution using NaHCO3 or other carbonates that you end up with a completely safe electrolytic solution after use. If one takes pH readings of the electrolytic solution over time, one can access the progress of the carbonate solution (pH will increase with increasing Alkalinity).

Using Vinegar in HHO Generators:
A common person may reason that Vinegar (a 5 to 10% solution of acetic acid) is a suitable electrolyte for DC Electrolysis to make HHO Gas. Why not? It’s cheap, sometimes cheaper then bottled water, everybody can buy it around the corner, and it is very safe you can drink it. WRONG.

It's not a good electrolyte, and you can NOT count on its stability. One of the reasons is that is not a solid with a high boiling point like the preferred KOH or NaOH, but pure Acetic Acid is a liquid, with a certain vapor pressure ( you can not smell cold KOH, wile sniffing on a bottle of cold Acetic acid may let your nose fall off, it stinks pretty strong); and it has a boiling point not much higher then water.

( Water = 100°C, Acetic Acid = 118°C ). And because many HHO Cells and hho Hydrogen Boosters are run on elevated temperatures, some above 90°C, you can imagine that besides your Hho gas, a lot of water vapor ( steam) AND also acetic acid vapors will escape such a hho generator. Thus you are losing your electrolyte if you use Vinegar, not so with NaOH and KOH.
Further See : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolbe_electrolysis The Kolbe electrolysis From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia reaction is an organic reaction named after Adolph Wilhelm Hermann Kolbe.

Acetic Acid gives Ethane gas + Carbon dioxide gas So you get an un-useful gas CO2 (it extinguish flames does not promotes explosions) and Ethane gas which is a flammable gas that will behave as a fuel. Your electrolyte, by the electrolysis process in your hho dry cell cooks and vanishes trough your engine, you'll be left with plain water, without electrolyte, resistance goes up, amps go down, hho gas production goes down, and your possible gain in MPG is pretty fast back to zero.

Using Sodium Sulfate in Your HHO Generator :

The electrolysis of an aqueous solution of sodium sulfate using inert electrodes does produces hydrogen at the cathode and oxygen at the anode, but a neutral solution of sodium sulfate remains unaltered by the electrolysis.

Cathode Reaction : 4 H2O + 4 e(-) ==> 2 H2 + 4 OH(-)
Anode Reaction : 2 H2O ==> O2 + 4 H(+) + 4 e(-)
The overall cell reaction is : 6 H2O ==> 2 H2 + O2 +4 H(+) +4 OH(-)

Sodium sulfate is much weaker than lye, so you would need much more electrolyte and it quickly turns your water into a brown/red substance. Though it does not damage the electrodes in your hho generator, it really does not look good. So the bottom line is that after all my experimentation I simply decided to stick to KOH for best production of hho gas from my HHO Dry Cell Generators. Yes it is a caustic material, but just like any object or substance that can be potentially dangerous in the wrong hands, you simply need to study up on the material you are using and be responsible and keep it out of the reach of your children. NaOH or KOH, when used as electrolyte to produce hho gas, from any type of HHO Generator is clean and will never damage your electrodes.

Part One of this HHO Generator Help Hub

I hope that this helps those who are experimenting with HHO fuel devices. For extensive study on hho generators and hho Dry Cell Design go to HHO 2u.


Comments 50 comments

Mowag 6 years ago

Hi, I'm from Belgium and I'm also testing with HHO generators. This text containsd a lot of extra info I didn't have till now. Thanks!

But, because my english is not as well as yours I had a few questions:

1.Sodium sulfate is that: NaCl?

2.Your recommanded electrolite's, KOH and NaOH, do not dammage the generator you say. Can they dammage the PVC tubes, the silocone and the engine?


larry 6 years ago

Thank you for stopping by Mowag.

Koh does not damage the components of a properly built hho generator system. All electrodes should be at least 316L stainless steel. I would not recommend using "pvc tubes".

All hho generators, no matter what electrolyte being used, should have a "bubbler", also known as a scrubber in place to clean the hho gas before inducing it into the engine.

Otherwise yes the KOH could damage the engine.


Robert 9w2MTX 6 years ago

Hi Larry ,

Tq for the info.

Have you tried Pottasium carbonate as I found there are saying its good not to sure. Hope you can explain.Though.

TQ

Regards

Robert 9w2MTX


Larry 6 years ago

Thanks Robert

Potassium carbonate is a very good electrolyte for hho production and safer to work with but the disadvantages are it is sometimes necessary to mix it with a little NaOH to draw more amps. This brings you right back to point A. caustics.

It is also much more difficult to locate a supplier.

Thank you for bringing this to my attention for further study.


3300mc 6 years ago

this was some of the best info i've found when it comes to electrolites... and i deff. think i'm going to change my set up to a KOH solution but i do have a question how do you think that type of electrolite would interact with my small circulation pump and pvc and other rubber conections?


Adam 6 years ago

Won't KOH eat up the aluminum parts of your carberutor? Or does the bubbler remove all the lye out of the gases produced?


Larry 6 years ago

Hi 3300mc and Adam;

Sorry it took me a wile to get back.

Adam sort of answered the question about the effects of Koh.

It does eventually damage rubber parts and may effect your pump after a while, depending on what the pump is built out of.

Yes Koh in a concentrated mixture will damage aluminum, and that is exactly the purpose of the secondary bubbler/ scrubber - to remove any contaminates before the hho gas is injected into the motor.

Thank You for stopping by - Larry


midahar 6 years ago

What if you use Titanium plates?


Larry 6 years ago

Potassium Hydroxide (KOH) is the proper electrolyte to be used in a Titanium Substrate HHO Cell. Potassium Hydroxide is used because it works the best with coated titanium plates as well as with all stainless steel hho dry cells and wet cell hho generators.

If you want to learn more about Titanium hho dry cells check out

Smacks Boosters newer hho generator stuff.


chris 6 years ago

I used KOH and drove to California and back from the Midwest and all my Anodes were eaten away and a sludge left at the bottom of the container. Surprisingly enough the system still worked even after it blew a fuse . I believer that the Ambient Energy from the engine kept powering and creating the reaction in the gen.


HHO Drycell 6 years ago

Wow Chris

Let me get this straight. Was this hho generator a wet cell or dry cell ? I am assuming a wet cell generator, when you say "sludge at bottom of container".

What were you using - 316l stainless or less grade ?

And last when you say "eaten away", do you mean totally gone but the hho generator was still producing hho gas ?


hoover1 profile image

hoover1 6 years ago from NM

there is some residual current in the cell,when off. a weak battery in effect. what you buy may not be 316L, if the silkscreen numbers are wiped off.


hoover1 profile image

hoover1 6 years ago from NM

i needed some scientific type info on this issue, thanks. im on a quest for the real deal.. what about hydrogen peroxide? seems logical, efficient. can get 35% h2o2 online, overkill? http://reliablehho.com


hho drycell 6 years ago

Hydrogen peroxide's chemical representation is H2O2. It has uses in industry in it's purest form but the product available to most of us over-the-counter is usually only 3% hydrogen peroxide and 97% water.

It breaks down quickly when exposed to light so it generally comes in brown bottles that filter out the sun.

In a less diluted form Hydrogen Peroxide is very dangerous.

Hydrogen peroxide decomposes (disproportionates) exothermically into water and oxygen gas spontaneously:

In other words it Evaporates very quick.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontaneous_process

Hydrogen Peroxide does not react well with metals that are of the transitional metal group.

Most common HHO Dry cells and hho generators are being built with stainless steel which has several of the metals or elements of the transitional group in "table D".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periodic_table D block

For the reasons above and many others not mentioned here Hydrogen Peroxide is Not a good catalyst for hho gas production.

By looking at the link you left hoover1 .. (HHO/ hydrogen cell electrolyte solution additive products, do's and don'ts)

I believe you already know what the best Electrolyte is. I'll leave your link up because you have some good info.

Any other input on this subject is appreciated .. Please no Spam Just to get a Link.


T Gray 5 years ago

I was reading in the NASA article where they were testing HHO and were using Ammonia as a catalyst. Has this been tried? They claimed it produced much more HHO than other chemicals.


Rody Leman 5 years ago

Verry good Infom.Ilove it.Also what is your anser To pure ammonia?? I mad my owne Units, Joe- and try cells.dond like to go over 18-20 Amps.thank you for more info.Rody.


mike 5 years ago

just a thought why not use sweat as a catalyst for hho production


luis valle 5 years ago

Hi Larry, i have a question, whether i use koh or naoh in my generator, the same problem happens, at first when the electolite is new produces good quantity of hho gas, but in ive days the water gets brownish, and the quantity o hho gas goes down dramatically, I have the ccpwm, and I see that the amps are the same. -t supposed the solution can last much more than what is happening to me. What do you think??

Thankyou


Larry - hho2u 5 years ago

Hi Luis;

Sorry for late reply. What type of hho generator are you running - a wet cell or an hho dry cell ?

Are you using 316L stainless steel or a lower grade in your hho generator ? This does make a huge difference.

I am assuming you are not over amping.


john walker 5 years ago

i have a 13 plate cell kit ive got it installed,this is my first,the cell and bubbler will hold 1 gal, how much KOA should i put in this system,i did abreakin using Naoh,please give me pounds per gal,thanks,J.R.W.


HHO2U profile image

HHO2U 5 years ago from Mojave California Author

Hi John;

10% koh to water is a good mix for most hho generators.

When first starting up your hho dry cell it is best to start with a little less as each cell reacts slightly different and each chemical co. has different concentration. 1 oz. of 90% pure koh to 10 oz. water.

For more info on hho dry cells and generators try http://hho2u.com


electronicspark1 5 years ago

I'm using NaOH for a few months. Is KOH better to use? Is it the same? It seems to be used interchangably?

P.S. This is the best, most recent info I've found in a long time. Keep up the great work.


Nirmal dixit 5 years ago

Well i am from India , i am also using KOH IN MY HHO KIT, but as in India we didn't get 100% pure fuel as you people , so is only KOH is ok or i need to add something else


hho2u 5 years ago

Thank you for stopping by.

I will try to answer both comments at one time.

Koh is found to produce "cleaner" hho gas in any hho generator, wet cell or Dry cell.

The purity of the KOH will determine the amount needed to bring your hho dry cell up to the amperage draw you desire.

You should not need to add anything more to produce clean hho gas.

Awesome hho generator help >> http:hho2u.com


lov@hho 5 years ago

i have been surfing the internet for a long time but have not been able to find any helpful information about how to prepare the electrolyte, how much soda to be added to water and after what period of time to change the electrolyte.

anyone please help me in this regard


HHO2U profile image

HHO2U 5 years ago from Mojave California Author

Hi lov@hho;

Sorry for late reply - First off we do not recommend using baking soda in any hho generator; please read our articles about koh for better hho gas production.

More detailed hho generator and hydrogen on demand information can be found at http://hho2u.com -- Best hho dry cell design out there.

If you insist on using "soda" .......

How much baking soda should i put in the water for hho fuel cell ?

If you are planning to generate this HHO for catalyst use on a car (to help the gas burn more efficiently) you will want to build an electrolyzer (hho generator) that draws no more than 20 amps. Depending on your array you might actually want less than that - sometimes you have to experiment to see where you get your peak LPM (liters per minute ) of hho gas output. It could be 2 amps, could be 10, could be 20... It's also a good idea to draw the experimental power from the auto you are going to use the unit in, as the alternator and electrical system can have an effect on that optimum amperage, ie amount of baking soda.

Rest of this hho generator info > http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=200806...


Munir Ahmed 4 years ago

Which hh0 cell is c0mpatible with K0H??? and can it drives the 1000cc car??? h0w much plates that cell will contain?? Reply s0on..


Munir Ahmed 4 years ago

Which hh0 cell is c0mpatible with K0H??? and can it drives the 1000cc car??? h0w much plates that cell will contain?? Reply s0on..


HHO2u 4 years ago

Hi Munir

The standard formula for best performance when using a Hydrogen on Demand system to improve gas mileage is -- 1/4 to 1/2 LPM ( liter per minute ) of hho gas per liter of motor size. 1000cc is equivalent to one liter.

The Dry Cell hho generator is much more energy efficient than a wet cell hho generator for many reasons.

More info. on this can be found here

"http://www.hho2u.com/COMPLETE_DRY_CELL_Kit.html" COMPLETE HHO DRY CELL Kit


Brent 4 years ago

Have you ever heard of using sulfuric acid as and electrolyte? Diluted would it be ok to use? Also I have seen some generators that use no electrolyte at all. Will this actually work?


milanc 4 years ago

citric acid

what about with citric acid as an electrolyte ??

can you give me an answer

sorry for the bad english


HHO2U profile image

HHO2U 4 years ago from Mojave California Author

Thank you for stopping by our hho hubs Milanc;

Citric acid is indeed a very clean electrolyte, however as far as huge hho production it falls low on the list of best catalyst.

Years ago we experimented with citric acid as electrolyte with various hho wet cell generators; honestly we have not run experimentation on the hho dry cell to calculate production of hho gas (LPMs)

Perhaps in the near future we will run these test and post video of the production of hho gas with a dry cell hho generator using citric acid.

Anyone out there using citric acid in there hho dry cell ??

Please feel free to contact http://hho2u.com


Daniel 4 years ago

Can You tell me, how is freezing problem solved?


Ravinder Jeet Singh 4 years ago

Can we go with simple distlled water without using of sodium or baking powder Although we get lesser results but our components are safe.


YATIN PATEL 4 years ago

I am trying to generate HHO Cell but again it was not get sucessed. which Electrolyte i should use ?? when using distilled water it get brown precipitate . why this happen ?? give me information regarding size,diameter of electrode ? space between electrode ? type of electrolyte i havet o use.


TJ 4 years ago

What is the best mix to use in freezing conditions. For example does KOH have better freezing prooperties than NaOH (i.e. a lower freezing point)


LD - hhodrycell 4 years ago

Koh not only is a better ("cleaner") catalyst for your hho dry cells it also has a lower freeze point.

Many people in sub zero temps. add "heet"

What can I use to protect the HHO cell from freezing?

Some people say that freeze protection isn't necessary, since the electrolytic injection cell will eventually warm up after you start your vehicle and then build up to its normal output. However, this may not be what you want, so adding a freezing point depressant is recommended during the winter months. In extremely cold climates, a heater would be more effective than using a great deal of additives. 

Methyl alcohol - Sometimes called wood alcohol, methanol is a very poisonous and a highly effective freezing point depressant for water. This is the same active ingredient found HEET®. A Brand of gas line additive has methyl alcohol, and can be found at any auto part store.

You can down load the rest of this page at http://hho2u.com


sadi 4 years ago

Is it enough to draw 2 amp per cell for a small production of brown gas as like 1 LPM? And what should be the best for connection type of cell either series or parallel?


Adebisi Nigeria 4 years ago

I think for now we all agreed on using KOH or NAOH as catalyist for production of hho gas. can you pls enlight me on production of hho by high voltage low current bcus high current is still a chalenge of this project. thanks.


richard dobyns 4 years ago

how can I be sure of hyd not to hurting engine when produced by lye and

aluminum for gen..


HHO2U profile image

HHO2U 4 years ago from Mojave California Author

Hi Richard;

The purpose of the secondary bubbler ( scrubber) is to run the hho gas through water, some use other additives to clean contaminates from hho before inducing into air intake.

The bubbler for your hho kit can be as simple as a pvc tube 1/2 full of water or an elaborate filtration system.

Either way the hho should be filtered.


BlindPlague ☯ 3 years ago

The KOH will destroy aluminum blocks.

What can I use in conjunction with my car HHO gen to ensure max hho production but not risk corrosion of my engine?


Bob 3 years ago

The secondary Bubbler, also known as a "scrubber" is in place for this reason. The hho gas recirculates from the dry cell along with water to the reservoir (air gap at top). From the Reservoir the hho gas is run through a bubbler/scrubber filled with water and sometimes other filtering substances before being induced to the motor.

You can see a clear pic. of the basics at 2hho.com dry cell page


HHO2U profile image

HHO2U 3 years ago from Mojave California Author

Sorry for the late reply BlindPlague ;

As stated above and below your comment the bubbler or other filtration device is a necessary part of any Hydrogen on demand system, most people use the simple bubbler type tube filled with water because it works well and is affordable.

here is the page indicated above http://2hho.com - see the hho dry cell page


despat 3 years ago

Keep in mind that Potassium Carbonate releases carbon dioxide gas.

K2CO3 + H2O yields 2KOH + CO2

Eventually you will be left with KOH in aqueous solution. In my mind its better to start with KOH and not put the carbon dioxide gas into the atmosphere.

The idea that its safer is preposterous.


HHO2U profile image

HHO2U 3 years ago from Mojave California Author

Nicely put despat,

We have been running koh in our dry cell systems for years and will continue until some one shows up with something better.

Noticed you just joined Hub, what is your special interst, will you be publishing anything on HHO gas generation?

http://hho2u.com - hho generator info.


Gary 17 months ago

Hi HHO2U,

Can we use ordinary saltwater as catalyst? Thanks.


Larry 16 months ago

Using Salt water should be avoided, (can produce chlorine gas)

Salt causes a lot of corrosion and an orange scum in your hho cell.

We recently did however perform some promising experiments using only ocean water in our cells to produce hho.

Will keep you informed on the process.


Roger Lance 16 months ago

I read your directions on mixing the catalist for HHO. There are many safety precautions pertianing to the “dust” and “reactions” from the powder chemicals. I also found a problem with measuring the “ratio” of catalist to water. The liquid catalist product I found is much simpler to use but I sure could use a ratio such as tablespoons of liquid catalist to ounces of water”.

The product below has both of your catalists combined.

Home Depot Store Exclusive. This item is available for purchase in select stores only.

Instant Power ® Hair and Grease Drain Opener

Sodium hydroxide & Potassium hydroxide liquid.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Instant-Power-67-6-oz-H...


genakay 26 hours ago from Ukraine ????????

good afternoon misters I only began to work with but the generator and I try the electrolyte received by means of the device similar to a wet cell

which rascheplyat water on дисцилат and alkaline and after sedimentation of a deposit I mix them 1х1 so far still fully did not test but the brown deposit was not yet as soon as fully at loading I test I will share to whom interestingly write on the genakay@mail.ru mail

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    Potassium Carbonate In Your HHO Dry Cell

    I thought it a good Idea to add to this article based on a question about potassium carbonate for use in Hydrogen generators.

    Potassium Carbonate is actually a very good electrolyte to use when trying to produce hho gas from any type of hho generator wither it be a wet cell design or hho dry cell. It is more safe to handle but more difficult to procure. For this reason most experienced hho experimenters are using KOH - Potassium Hydroxide in their Hho Generators. If handled with care it is at this time been found to be the best catalyst for producing clean hho gas that is readily available.

    Today potassium carbonate is prepared commercially by the electrolysis  of potassium chloride. The resulting potassium hydroxide is then carbonated using carbon dioxide to form potassium carbonate, which is often used to produce other potassium compounds.

        2KOH + CO2 ? K2CO3 + H2O

    It is mixed with distilled water to make a safer electrolyte for oxyhydrogen production than potassium hydroxide, the more commonly used electrolyte.


       1. Potassium Hydroxide - KOH
              * Advantages:
                    * Electrodes stay clean
                    * 95 - 100% pure HHO (hydrogen - oxygen) gas production with the right generator design
                    * Strong and pure electrolyte
              * Disadvantages:
                    * Not available everywhere
                    * Somewhat dangerous to work with
              * Recommended as a very good electrolyte to work with (recommended by Honda in 2001).
       2. Potassium Carbonate - K2CO3
              * Advantages:
                    o Maximum HHO gas production
                    o Very pure HHO gas production with the right generator design
                    o Efficient
                    o Works great with bottled natural mineral water
                    o Safe to work with
              * Disadvantages:
                    o It is possible (sometimes necessary) to mix it with a little NaOH to draw more amps
       3. Winter Electrolyte
              * Mix Water + Ethyl Glycol + KOH to provide the benefit of a low freezing point but high boiling point at the same time.

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