Is hubpages in danger of being over-run by writers from India who can't write proper English? I went to a hubpages question yesterday, and half the answers were from Indian hubbers who didn't understand the question but felt compelled to answer it anyway.
It's not just answers. More than half of the questions that come up on my stats page are written in broken English, usually by Indian hubbers.
Given that these peeps are writing hubs as well, is the overall quality of the site decreasing due to this influx? We can't discriminate, but we could apply stricter quality control. Perhaps it's just questions and answers lacking control, but that might have an adverse effect on its own.
+1 on this post! I've reported some of the garbled posts on Q&A and also on a forum thread. It was clear the person couldn't write English, but had been on the site for a few years. When I checked her hubs, the summaries were equally as garbled, but (guess what!) the content was magically well written! Except, in some cases, the intro paragraph. I flagged the hubs, the Hubber and even the forum post. She was still around a few days later, so I don't know what it takes to nuke poorly written and possibly stolen content (or the Hubbers who do that).
Think I'll go find that thread & see if she's still around.
Marcy, I reported this hubber for copied content, and it was ignored.
So I will repeat -
is a copy of
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=KDa4 … mp;f=false
For some reason, duplicate checkers seems to disregard .pdf files.
Bingo - that's the one. I reported it, too, Izzy, and when you mentioned it in another thread, I figured we'd seen the same issue (great minds & all that - well, one great mind, and her fan club in Texas).
Maybe they'll check it out this time. As with you, I kept an eye on it - still no action.
Oh my god that is awful. I've never actually seen a work being fully copied like that. How did you find that book and realise it was being copied on that hub?
Was it just a slim chance or something? That hub seems very bland despite its copied high quality content anyway, so the good news is It's not likely to get many views
Views or not, it's still breaking the law. The "Hubber" clearly can't write English, but wants to earn money here.
The problem lies with the hypocrisy of the situation. Someone who cannot piece two words together in English can copy an article and have a hub that is still featured despite being flagged several times!
Others, who write well-researched, original content find their hubs removed from the search engines because they do not know the backhand tricks to gain traffic and do not want to spam their Facebook friends constantly with their hubs. When they try to edit things in a desperate attempt to get more traffic, their hub is sent through a "quality assessment". This sends the piece to someone who is happy to earn 5 cents for rating a hub and possibly does not even have the intelligence or education to understand more complex content. This minion rates the hub for "quality" using a mechanical rating system. If the hub does not contain a defined number of original photos, a defined number of videos, a poll capsule, a map capsule and heavens knows what other junk content, its quality score is marked down. As a result, the hub may never have a further chance to feature in search engines.
So the cheats, plagiarists and spinners thrive and the MTurk minions get their pittance while genuine writers get slapped.
Is it any wonder that a lot of people are very angry at how they are being treated?
Oh marry me WA.... your posts are Always So incredibly perfect in their accuracy and subtlety!
Soooooooooooooo well said! I love that "So There!" thing that you do!
You do have to pass a quality test before rating hubs on MTurk, but I'm sure the system isn't perfect. I definitely agree that at 5 cents per rating, I'm not exactly pouring over the hubs looking for inconsistencies. But I like to think I'm also not a minion
The system does attract some decent raters, because people who used to hop hubs here are hopping over there instead. While my last hub (a crochet pattern) was still in "review" I got 4 comments from people who were NOT following me. So I know they were rating it on Mturk and bounced over to give me a thumbs-up here. Very gratifying! So my point is that a lot of the raters are real people.
I wouldn't say the plagiarism problem is an Mturk problem. I would say it's a worldwide problem. Every day the same thing is happening online, in schools, and even at big businesses. If Hubpages found the magic fix to stop any plagiarized content getting through - they deserve a medal! I can't judge them too harshly for failing in that aspect.
I don't know anything about the whole Turk thing either. Ive heard it mentioned a lot.
Ive had ppl comment on my hubs b4 they were published too... also ppl I didn't know. What does that mean and how does that happen?
Your hub shows up in the "feed" as soon as it is written (when you hit the submit button). If someone is following the topic that your hub is on they will see it in their feed before it goes through QAP or gets featured.
Oh... huh. You could fill the ocean with what I still have yet to learn here. (I didn't even know you could follow a specific subject.)
LMAO... I will bite you if you call me missy again.
I spose that could be misconstrued as a nick name when your name is melissa, but I call every one missy. Im weird like that.
Wait, but what is Turk?
Amazon runs a program called Mechanical Turk.
Lots of people getting paid to do microtasking (small jobs) HP has hired out article ratings to them. Turkers are now doing paid hub-hopping.
Huh... so those ppl here who hub hop, and say they are doing their part to help rate... do they get angry that they are doing for free what others are getting paid to do and why can't they be paid too?
(Did you mean they are rating hubs when you said the Turkers are hob hopping?)
Some of them get angry, I guess. But there wasn't enough hopping going on to get enough QAPs. Most can get paid if they want to mosey on over and sign up at Mechanical Turk. If they pass the qualification test. It is limited to US residents, and that does suck, but otherwise every hubber could at least take the test if they wanted to.
The turk system uses the same hopper as hubbers use.
This was a really bad thread to mention that nationalities other than American were excluded.
I see your point about how that might sound to the many respected writers here from other countries. I don't know if the requirement is related to the form of payment, or to language skills (I'm not an MTurker).
However, one thing that might bear mentioning is that many language schools require instructors to be native speakers in whichever language they will instruct.
Non-American's can do work on Amazon Turk, I have earned a few cents that way I didn't realize only US residents could hub hop.
If I talk to you, you're not going to call me that are you? I don't, after all, quite fit the part...
We don't really know that for sure do we? You could have drawn that mustache on after all.
In truth, maybe we actually need to swap avatars. You never know, on the web.
I have to say, though, that if you do call me that I may not answer. I've been known to answer to many things (and be called even more!) but that's not one of them.
I promise not to call you missy, but I can't promise that I wont call you senor.
It's specifically in my profile who gets to call me Missy. It is a very short list. But, I have no problem calling you Missy if you like Wilderness. I actually have a couple friends I could introduce you to if you decided to walk that path.
wilderness...I now dub thou 'Missy'. Deal with it, sir or ma'am!
It is actually very easy to find.
Suspicions are (or should be) immediately aroused when a hubber posts a question or writes on the forums in broken English, yet their hubs are perfect.
Using Chrome, I highlight a section of the text of the hub, right click on it and choose 'search in Google'.
The results page should then show a host of similar results.
More often than not, the hub is found to be plagiarised from a .pdf file which for some reason plagiarism checkers don't seem to check.
So I can deduce from this that although plagiarism checkers do not check PDF filles, Google Search will do it just fine? Marvellous! Balance is restored - I will enjoy flagging many a hub thanks to this.
Maybe there should be a permanent forum where people can link to clearly copied hubs so that members can collectively flag it down for removal. I flagged the one that was mentioned above but I'm not sure how many flags (if there is a number) will warrant a removal.
I hate to say it (because it could get out of hand) but a forum thread for posting copied content or low-quality hubs might be a good idea. You are at least the third or fourth person who flagged the same content mentioned above - and it took several days to have it removed.
Okay, I've created the forum thread, don't forget to follow and spread it so we can all begin cleaning HubPages up!
I can't see the book - maybe it's been taken down. *No, that's not true; it just took forever to load.*
But we hubbers may, in a way, be partially responsible for copied pdf stuff. I'm constantly seeing advice on how to get around the duplicate rule while posting duplicate material, usually by making the material into a photo. Is it possible that a pdf is like that; seen as something besides text by checkers and google?
FireFox can find it, and I would think a duplicate checker could too, but I don't know enough to be sure.
I think it was published a few years ago, before the quality review process. But it's been reported by at least two people. Not sure why the hub is still there.
HP staff have said that flagging is not much help, I'm guessing because they don't have the manpower to follow up on all the flags that are sent their way. (Would love clarification on this.) They want us to hop instead of flag, but older hubs don't go into the hopper, so it sounds like poor quality hubs are here to stay if the articles were published before the QAP process was put into place.
5 hours later and this hub is still published, despite all the flags.
Maybe we should all go find a .pdf file and copy someone else's work.
It's obvious the site doesn't give a damn.
Bump on this one - I'd like to understand from Admin why this hub is still published. Izzy has attached a link to the site from which it was copied. I just checked a minute ago - the hub is still published.
That's a good idea. I think I'll just start flagging these questions in future. My worry is that with all this poorly written content, the site will be ranked down overall.
If the question is a good one and there are some great answers then this won't work - you'd have to contact the owner of the question and let them know there are some very poor quality answers - they have the ability to delete answers...
Whenever the intro and/or summary is garbled English and the content well written it only means one thing. Its either a copied or purchased hub. There are several sites where I have seen requests for hubs to be written.If you can purchase a well written hub for $4, why not?I prefer to write my own but there are several who buy hubs to put on here.
Don't judge them based on background stuff like forum posts. People may have English as a second or third language and still put in the effort to create well written Hub posts. Sure, I've seen some poorly written posts, but not all of them are poorly written. Some are no worse than posts written by people who live in North America but don't take time to proofread their posts at all.
Sorry, but I'm skeptical of someone who publishes hubs that are pretty much flawless, but can't write a short sentence without numerous spelling and syntax errors. The person who wrote the clip I copied here still has hubs published that have one style of writing in the summary & first sentence of the hubs (which resembles this post) and the rest of the hubs are in a completely different writing style.
I agree with your skepticism, Marcy. If you are capable of writing perfect English, why would you write a question/answer, comment, or forum post in poor English? Or in a completely different style?
I have to agree with you here.....just a gut feeling.
In theory the QAP process 'should' sort this out. Also - answers can be voted down....
Best you make an effort to reinforce your glasshouse mate!
Surely your having such a superior command of English, would allow you to demonstrate within your thread firsthand, your true ability to express yourself in a somewhat more appropriate and less ironic manner Mr Swan?
Would be so kind as to explain to we inferior souls, exactly what 'PEEPS' are, S.V.P.
It's internet slang. It means "people", but with an amiable tone. I felt my post could have appeared slightly prejudiced against Indians, which is why I went with it.
No way! PEEPS are those nasty but addictive little marshmallow things we get to eat at Easter. It helps to pretend you have small kids at home when you sheepishly go through the checkout counter. At least we don't have to pick the fake grass off of them before we eat them, like when we were kids.
Off topic. Sorry!
Then you completely missed my point then didn't you?
Perhaps devolving the English language with such chosen 'slang' should be seen by all of us as being more acceptable than what is offered by 'people' who are often genuinely trying to improve and evolve their writing skills!
Did you not consider that point?
PearlDiver, I just figured out, is from a country where some good friends of mine live part of the year. I love the accents there. He hasn't let me hear his, yet. Darn! Or should that be 'bloody shame' ??
Well he had a smilie to word ratio that put him in the halfwit or forum troll category (note: smilies intended to ridicule). He capitalized and added color to words in a banal attempt to add emphasis; suggesting an inability to express himself. He then mentioned my name to make it a more personal attack. All suggested troll, hence my unwillingness to engage. Understanding their methods makes it easier to see their deficiencies (and to not take it personally). Thanks for the heads up though.
He is not a troll. He is the real deal. Go visit his profile. He has one of the most amazing composite of hubs on this site. They are works of art both visually as well as written..
Oh my, I sometimes overuse smilies... does that make me a halfwit and a troll?
I don't know Univited Writer, but had I used more smilies a few forums ago--I might have escape being banned. lol lol
Depends how you use them <-
I get your point though. I meant smilies intended to ridicule someone that, more often than not, incite an angry reply.
Have you met Mark Ewbie yet? Well, you just opened a door for him to step in
No. TBH I usually stay away from the hubpages forum for this reason. This topic seemed important enough to bring up, but I'm beginning to wish I hadn't. Lesson learned!
I tried to delete the post, because like you said the topic you bring up is much too important. My fingers were not quick enough.
No I will not admit he was trying to bait you. Overtime, I discovered if you give PDs responses a second read you will usually discover they are not what they appear at first glance and sometimes you might discover he was actually in agreement. That was what my comment was directed towards.
I checked out your profile pretty impressive
It's good that you brought it up. It is an important topic. Note the many, many emotion-filled responses. Many HP account holders are frustrated to have their well written articles de-indexed within a few weeks, while poor quality content is allowed to remain.
I'll step in but I have no idea what it is about. Here's my first ever smiley...
How Dare You publicly intimate that someone of over 3 years standing here who rightfully 'corrected' your improper English.. (per: your opening post, in which you ironically slurred the improper use of, by others of Indian descent!).... is a Halfwit or Forum Troll!
You allege in your Bio to be a master of philosophy etc. etc.... and yet it seems you were completely unable to appreciate the subtle nature of my post... Unbelievable!
You were wrong and yet you then persisted in posting further derogatory personal slurs about me! That is a 'Personal Attack' and if that was your best attempt... it lacked credibility, simply because of the 'Trollish' manner you chose to use! I would contend that you chose not to directly 'engage me' as you put it, because you were Out of Your Depth!
So, kindly Formally Apologize and take the time to engage in Due Diligence before you consider it appropriate to Insult others with Indirect and Inaccurate Trashy Remarks! - Perhaps in that way, you will be able to see the facts between the lines and learn a little more about the things that you claim to be an 'expert' in! You certainly 'no' F*** all about Kiwis and their 'expertise' mate!
Good Luck in the ODI series!
It seems I angered the troll who tried to anger me. I must admit, I'm struggling to give a damn. Perhaps your ability to communicate what you originally intended needs to be brought into question. Or does your ego not permit that, Mr. "3 years standing"?
Well sadly.... I did give you the opportunity to be 'amiable' and show some class by retracting your personal attacks... but in the absence of emotional maturity.. you choose to be the aggressor and predictably choose to carry it on!
Your True Colors shine through your inability to communicate maturely, factually and accurately!
I believe you opened this thread to create an opportunity to show off your feathers, but factually, it appears that your parrot had previously suffered a severe loss of hair mate!
How sad that we haven't had a chance to meet face to face...
I would love to show you a pic of what a seemingly dejected ego looks like from DownUnder Sport!
I'll be in San Fransisco soon for the Americas Cup races... love to compare the strength of our opinions then!
Did you not know that we have a whole different perspective on BS down here... and that clearly, we are more qualified at seeing which insecure @sses up there, it comes from? The world is Not Flat mate!
Always remember that... if you ever feel like looking down at people again, or the need to learn something about Kiwis... our directness, ethics and our honesty!
But Sheeeshh Mr swan... I still feel sooooo incredibly violated by the immature nature of your persistent baiting efforts! But I must admit you've opened a can of worms with this thread... Pity your efforts with me fall into the very same category that you were originally posting on!
(**shuffles off with the image of Danny de Vito's penguin character from that Baitman movie on his mind!!**)
..... (See ya in the spring! Qquaaaaark!)
...... (Sheeesh.... wish I had a Ewbie Smiley original for that thought!)
Wow, that ego trip is almost as long as the one in your profile. I guess it ends here because, like your profile, I won't be reading this either.
Man . . . you are brutal! I hope Pearl Diver can recover from the near fatal blow.
Oh thanks for that compliment young fella.... yes.... It's Really BIG!
Yes... I've always been intrigued by how badly observant young geese tend to be! But I must say.... it was good of you to recognize that some of us men are substantially longer than others... and therefore bluffing in Winter ain't so smart... is it?
They are little chicken shaped, sugar coated marshmallows.
Important issue! I am myself a non-native English speaker, I just started hubbing last week and I find it very important to write in correct English. I use automatic proofreaders and spend quite some time on forums in order to find the appropriate term or idiom. If the proportion of low-quality hubs starts increasing (whether they originate from India or elsewhere), I am afraid this will impact everybody. I already found the kind of hubs you mention... this is unacceptable. How can we act on it?
Welcome to the site, sdelandtsheer - I admire you for learning to be so fluent in another language. If your hubs are as well-crafted as this post, you will do well here!
Yes, I agree that poor writing hurts everyone on the site. I'm by no means suggesting we should bar persons who live outside of the English-speaking countries. I'm just saying that all quality should live up to reasonable standards.
It is a language issue, not a racial or nationalist one. Many Indians and others speak and write excellent English. I myself, as a Brit in the US, struggle with linguistic/cultural differences in the US, which can affect writing. I think the problems are more to do with basic grammar and syntax, which can be difficult if you are not a native speaker. Plagiarism too can be an issue, as a non-English speaker has more incentive to copy material.
I think you're right. The temptation to plagiarize is probably the main risk here. Theoretically, poor English should be weeded out anyway, no matter if the writer is a native Indian, a native Brit or American...
As an Irishman in the US, I also struggle with the same issue. I have employed a huge number of people who are native English speakers yet can barely put a sentence together. I try to overlook it and overtime, I realized that there were also many customers who preferred speaking with them, as they had the same "lingo". It was odd.
Your use of the English language is very good! I wish everyone had your dedication.
I'm afraid it will impact the whole site too. This is a time when google is getting stricter, and hubpages is seeing an influx of bad writers.
Perhaps the automatic proofreader you mentioned could be used on hubpages. Once the error-per-word percentage gets high enough, the question or forum post could be rejected.
No more or less than the site has been at any point in the last four years.
most of the people who write here are from America, India and Pakistan per viglink. l don't
most of the people who write here are from America, India and Pakistan per viglink. l don't think
most of the people who write here are from America, India and Pakistan per viglink. l don't think it is
most of the people who write here are from America, India and Pakistan per viglink. l don't think it is fair
Why is it unfair? This is an English language site that supposedly cares about the quality of the content it features.
These people can go and write on a site in Urdu or whatever is their language. Of course, they won't because there is probably no money in it and money is their only motive for producing the c__p they produce. However, I do not see why they should be allowed to write here and drag down everyone else's reputation by their lousy, incomprehensible contributions.
Agreed. It is not about the writer's nationality, it is about their ability to write well in English. English is theoretically my "third" language, but I think I can write well in it (excepting careless typos and general slovenly habits).
On the other hand, I have a terrible sense of balance and am generally very clumsy. Therefore I will not try out for a gymnastics team, or even try to earn by waitressing.
most of the people who write here are from America, India and Pakistan per viglink. l don't think it is fair that people from other countries are being picked on for the lack of the English language.
most of the people who write here are from America, India and Pakistan per viglink. l don't think it is fair that people from other countries are being picked on for the lack of the English language. English is the
most of the people who write here are from America, India and Pakistan per viglink. l don't think it is fair that people from other countries are being picked on for the lack of the English language. English is the hardest language
most of the people who write here are from America, India and Pakistan per viglink. l don't think it is fair that people from other countries are being picked on for the lack of the English language. English is the hardest language to learn. They a
This is an open user-based content site. New Hubs go up as easily as new forum topics. There is a reason why big publishing companies have rigorous requirements such as college degrees, interview screening processes, and background checks on potential writers... *cough*professionalwriters*cough*
---"Welcome to the internet."
But, to answer your question, *yes* it *does* decrease the quality of the site. You want quality writing? Go www.nationalgeographic.com. Anything on there needs to go through a rigorous review process, including but not limited to putting a piece before an editing panel prior to publication.
HubPages *could* become more like National Geographic... I do, however, like HubPages the way it is.
There is poor English everywhere ,even from English speaking countries. Thanks for post, as we need to pitch in and help make this a better site.
I think it's alright to discuss the issue of improper use of english language, grammatical errors, plagiarism on HP but I'm sure it's not right or even good to get biased to any country without any study done around it. We are here to discuss subjects using a common language, you should be indeed happy people are sharing a pool of good information than storing it with them. Also, you should be happy that you'll get to know more about a country which is rich in its culture, history, people and much more. Since HP did not do any discrimination on which national can post and which can't , too very politely request you to edit the title of your Q&A.
Poojas, I'd have a stab at 'people who can't speak English properly'. Nevertheless, in spite of what I said in a hub elsewhere the real culprits in all this are not the ones whose hubs aren't first rate but the arseholes who comments string out hubs with trivia, spam, meaningless banter, foul-mouthed bravado, innuendo, personal attacks, snippets designed to make us all chortle, etc. What a pity this lot can't sling their hook and leave everyone else to write in whatever standard their English may have reached.
There are many people posting questions and writing hubs on this site who can't string a sentence together. It was my observation that many are from India. I didn't know that voicing that observation was discriminatory.
My is so much sorry terrible. My is not a white man whose can tell poor englishen
Thomas, your prejudice specifically against East Indians absolutely astounds me.
...Certainly many English writers can extremely often be equally inept/incompetent in their command of the English language.
...I have been on HubPages over 3 years and have read many, many poorly constructed Hubs by all folks of differing cultures.
Here's the post - minus the Hubber's name. Is the the sort of stuff you're talking about?
(This was posted in a thread about whether people could earn $100 here):
Earning $ 100 is do not depend upon the quantity of hubs, it is fully depend upon the quality of hubs.
For an example you wrote something about current affairs with good key words which will bring more than 100k traffic a month in that case that single hub also can help you to Earn $100 in single month.
So write maximum number quality hubs and calculate yourself with your own earnings because every individual has different style to earn money.
Simone - I flagged the profile & her hubs - the summaries make me cringe. And it's very curious that the content is magically decent (after the first sentence). The person has a Hubber score of 86 or something, and since the work was published a while back (possibly updated recently), it won't hit the Hopper.
Many Hubbers (me, for one) would not want to write for a magazine or newspaper that allowed this type of poor writing, so why should we write on a site that permits it?
Don't forget Marcy, the definition of the word "quality" is different here. Now it means "engagement", which really means "traffic." Which in turn means it has a "heartbeat". Which also indicates it has a "heat something or other."
Well - we're engaging that one Hubber being discussed here. Izzy & I both visited the hubs & tried to engage Admin, too. Wanna go get engaged with us? Maybe if three of us report it, she'll get an accolade or something.
Because we're an open publishing platform, we've always had writers who are new to the English language.
Because grammar is featured into the Quality Assessment Process, very poorly-written Hubs are not Featured.
If Hubs are not in English, they are moderated (they may also be moderated for benig next to impossible to read), though reporting Hubs for bad grammar does little good.
Hopping can help the most!
Yeah... I've also heard that Pogo Sticks are the perfect Hopping device for those who struggle to understand how perfect one must be, to be, grammatically accepted by those extremely short tempered old men of Hoy! Their language 'Rocks' and they're English!
You are, however, no longer an open publishing platform to all, only to those who write topics for the masses and bring in lots of views. The rest are gradually having their hubs removed from searches and at some point will have nothing left.
What about questions, answers and forum threads? They don't seem to receive quality control but they are on the hubpages domain, so they likely impact the site as a whole. Flagging and voting down by hubbers probably only catches a fraction of the total. I for one used to ignore these questions, though now I'm more likely to flag them.
From the flagging popup screen under "low quality" when flagging:
"Short or unfinished, rife with spelling or grammatical errors, contains a large number of broken links or videos, or is poorly formatted."
Are you meaning that the "rife with spelling or grammatical errors" isn't something that HP really wants us to flag? I have flagged in the past for both of those things, but if it is just wasting my (and moderators) time I'll stop.
Simone, what do you think of my "provisional license" site? If someone fails a basic generic test on signing up, they could be categorized within a separate legal entity, recognized separate to hubpages ie. hubpages probation.
I feel that this would keep everyone happy, give the challenged members a path to full membership, and google would rank the material as a separate entity.
I agree. If I lived in a foreign country, I would not be able to attempt to write on the site (unless in France which I am fluent in) due to lack of knowledge of the language. I am amazed at how well those from foreign countries do when they compose articles for HubPages.
Wow, I did not know that this has occured. I guess in a sense that hubpages could gain more people that do not even speak English or only broken English. I don't believe that the overall quality of the site is decreasing because of this.
This is nothing new. Many of us have complained about it for years but theses hubs still remain and new writers will be coming along all the time. Can't blame them, they are just trying to make a few bucks like everyone else.
Wow. I get dinged for duplicate content if I simply use too many direct quotes I've given proper attribution for in my hubs. How can whole passages get by the filter?
When I come across a hub obviously written by an English-as-second-language writer, I usually send them a private messege encouraging them to get an English-speaking friend to serve as their proofreader. We all need them.
I only speak one language and admire those who tackle a second language. These folks bring a rich texture to our community. But if they are simply copy and pasteing their way into HP, we need to flag their hubs and HP needs to investigate. I dare say there are many English native speakers who are Wikipedia-ing their way to high hub scores as well.
Accolade, a Hub Of The Day and more earnings than those who write correctly and don't copy.
I don't think HP really cares anymore as long as the hub brings traffic and they make money from ads.
While I am sympathetic to the problem of poor grammar and horrible spelling in the hubs published by people who are not native English/American style speakers, I have also learned from those hubs. So, I am less worried than some regarding the stilted use of conjunctions and proper verb tenses.
Should they be 'professional' writers, no. Should they be gently lead to becoming better? Yes.
Is there a process where they can be edited? I know I don't have the time to do so.
NMLady - I agree in theory that it would be nice to have an editing process, or a way to bring people along, but the site isn't here to teach people to write. And adding editing or coaching would be extremely labor intensive. It's reasonable to expect basic writing skills in return for having a platform on which to publish.
You may notice that a lot of the youths of today can barely speak English in English speaking countries. That goes for the UK, US and all other English speaking countries. "Ax" has replaced "ask", "B" has replaced "Be", etc etc.
I think it would be a good idea, on the part of hubpages, to have a separate area of the site for those who intent to improve their English skills while increasing the standard requirements for those on the high proficiency site. That way, everyone is happy.
That could be a very good idea. Allow the first site to be a trial-site, where people can graduate to the other one once they have a basic ability to write English.
Well, the problem is that most people who write poorly here either don't care, or they're not even aware they're lacking in skills. I agree that our language is deteriorating, but that doesn't mean a site devoted to having 'good quality' and 'well-written' content should set up a rehab center for people who would not pass 7th Grade English. Everything on this site is done with a bottom-line goal for profit, and I don't blame admin for having that as a goal. Many people don't personally see problems with their own use of the language.
Everything on the site also gets churned by Google to review quality and copyright infringement. Since most people writing here are in it for money, it's hardly likely that they'll voluntarily want their content put in a queue where no ads will appear (and that would surely be the case). So the site would have to figure out who 'wants to learn' or needs major improvement. That's already happening with the review process before publication. And yet things are still slipping by. They haven't even begun looking at the old content here.
As for copied content - some cultures don't view that the same way we do. But we have standards and laws to follow. All a site can do is try to prevent abuses (through not publishing) and offer a platform for good (or even adequate) to be published. There are schools for those who still need to learn.
I guess what i am trying to say, in a polite respect, is that there will always be those who come here to either mess around and write junk or who have terrible English and either know or dont know.
My suggestion would act as a deterrent and could separate the site into two parts, in the eyes of google. They could have a simple automated exam when you sign up that could determine your eligibility for the full site. This would also deter those who come here to write one article and/or spam.
One of the major problems on HP is that too many people write glowing praise in the "Comments" sections of hubs published by members they like even when the writing is atrocious.
If I begin reading a poorly written hub, I rarely finish it. Even if I struggle through it for some reason, I don't compound the problem by praising the writer. Poor writing should not be rewarded simply because its creator has the nerve to click on "Publish."
Content and creativity are crucial, but the ability to string words together into grammatically correct sentences and paragraphs is also important.
Poor writing is a distraction to the discerning reader, and why some HP members will state that only what is written is important--not how--is incomprehensible to me. After all, it's a WRITING SITE. We should all be writing to a high quality standard if we're going to publish.
I agree and disagree. Though I can't say I'm fluent "in France" as some apparently are, I have lived in France for almost 30 years and written two non-fiction books "in French" with French editors cleaning up after me. Still I would not presume to be fluent enough to write the kind of breezy text required for HP type articles in that language. So in this respect, I agree.
However, I see plenty of native Indians winning Booker Prizes (that's the big prize for best English language novel, folks), i.e. Salman Rushdie and Arundhati Roy to name just two. Yet I rarely read a hub (or forum entry) by a native American, Brit or Australian that is not fraught with spelling or grammatical mistakes, if not just plain poor writing and thought processes.
My point is that we native English writers should tend our own gardens first. The handful of foreigners that write here are not the main threat to the overall reputation of Hub Pages. We are.
Although I too find it annoying that some articles are not written in 'proper English' I ignore this fact if there is good information in the article. Ones that are so garbled that I have trouble following them I just leave and find something else to read. I personally know a couple of people that speak in 'broken English' and I honestly don't think it's a big deal, if you understand what they are saying and get the idea that they are trying to put across, then it's ok.
As for copied content - I'm not allowed to do it so why should they be allowed to do it! Rules are rules and that's all there is to it.
You might ignore it, but Google won't, and has informed the site that low-quality content is an issue with our rankings. Many (if not most) of the writers here who are from non-English speaking countries have a very good command of English, and some are among the best writers here. There's no reason to allow poorly written work here. And also no mechanism to filter something based on 'good information' rather than good writing.
When I first began writing here, the "Greeter" that contacted me was 'Haunty' & I was amazed to find that he is Hungarian, for he uses English better than most I've known who are native to the English language. While communicating with 'Haunty' for a couple of months, I found him to be excessively careful to use English correctly and I remember wishing then that everyone I knew was so thoughtful regarding the written word. So, we DO in fact, have English as a second language, writers here at HP that put in the time and effort to build their skills and while not everyone is going to be as well written as 'Haunty', I'd only ask that they carry with them a portion of the same ambition. I do think a basic skills test with a probationary period would be a good foundation to improve the overall quality of HubPages.
The point is not to screen people based on English as their second (or third) language, it is to set standards and uphold them for at least some basic skills in English. As many have stated here - some of the best and most popular writers are not native English speakers. Similarly, some of the worst writing we've seen has come from people who grew up in an English-speaking environment.
No matter what someone's background is, they need to write competently enough to reflect well on the site and its standards. It's far more than just a difference in idioms or slight spelling variations from the UK to the US. We have people signing up who can't construct a literate sentence in ANY language, and in some cases, resort to stealing content in order to publish here. That's got to be stopped.
Singling out Hubbers from India is unfair. Many Hubber from India (and other so-called non English speaking countries) happen to write quality content and for many Indian, English happes to be their native language. They speak and write English in their own way. To a red-blooded Britisher who speaks the Queen's English, most American "can't write proper English." Am sure many Americans have the same problem with Ebonics.
Indeed, I'm only going on what I've observed. Nearly all of the poorly written questions and hubs that I've seen have been from Indian or Pakistani hubbers. I've noticed that the number of hubbers within this category is increasing, and given googles increasingly strict standards for quality, I'm worried about the future success of this site in the google search engine.
Factually.... you are wasting your energy 'worrying' about how Google could potentially think about this site! Historically, it was this site's initial policy to embrace substandard, trashy 'writing' from ALL nationalities and on ANY subject, that they could attach an earning Google Ad to!
Writers on HP overall today, are NOT responsible for ANY negative BS from Google or ANY previously or current strategic decisions made by the management of HP! Factually, Google also earned from the partnership between HP and Google that enticed trashy writing onto the site! I think you will find that very point is where the Today Problems stemmed from and why HP choose to ignore Every Opportunity to be 100% Transparent!
Personally (and I'm certainly Not alone), I don't appreciate having My efforts to support the site and introduce quality to this site being completely undermined and manipulated on the basis of highly questionable and non transparent information (per above), that not only does not address the fact that HP management knowingly 'Chose' to use their site for a library of trashy (though earning) articles, that continue to exist here... but also have the audacity to attempt to convince intelligent people, who have Always only ever written Quality articles, that THOSE quality articles are the reason why better Library Practices need to occur and then rip down our efforts on the basis of that and other fabricated, spin reasons!
The Google - HubPages commercial partnership WAS and IS whatever those two entities 'Choose' it to be - BASED on the previous performance of and measurable culpability for 'ENGAGING' in what would be described today as Highly Questionable Trading Practices! - But Hey.... Lance Armstrong Never Cheated Either!
As I and others have said.... Don't waste your energy on 'worrying' about what happens to Beautiful Icebergs when someone Knowingly Tows them into Tropical Waters!
It doesn't take much to work out what the REAL worrying issues are!
Just imagine the waste when a 10,000 year old Iceberg melts and consider how much the guy who destroyed it is genuinely worrying about it... While he's getting paid for the exercise!
Time has the uncanny knack of highlighting yesterday's 'Truths' doesn't it! Look how sincere the Seven Sisters have been over the years!
Apparently, Oscar 'Bladerunner' thought he was killing an intruder when he emptied his gun into a person who wanted to share Valentines with him!
Oh Please...... don't worry about the hype... worry about the truth!
One of the writing affectations that offends my sensibilities more than almost any other is the penchant to sprinkle capital letters through text where they are inaccurate. Talk about a distraction! I can't read something like that and don't want to (just as I read less than two paragraphs of the diatribe above before judging it not worth my time. I'm not referring to your question, Thomas).
If people are going to call themselves "writers", they should learn to write. Take a class, read a "how to" book, invest in a style manual, buy an old copy of "Sistrunk & White", and learn to use grammar properly.
I don't wish to give the impression that I think my own writing is anywhere near perfection (it isn't) or that a few minor errors will make me turn away from an article or creative piece of writing that otherwise has value. What dismays me is consistently awful writing. Sometimes it's difficult to tell if the writer doesn't realize how bad it is or simply doesn't care.
I learned very soon after joining HP that the "Comments" section is not meant for critiques. Perhaps I'm more thick-skinned than the average HP writer, but I wouldn't mind someone pointing out how one of my own hubs could be improved. There are, however, many HP members who emphatically state they don't think punctuation and spelling are important, and they don't want anyone pointing our their errors! Enough said! I can take a hint. Ha-ha.
If someone doesn't believe a grasp of grammar is necessary for good writing, and it's evident in all of his or her hubs, I won't be among the followers of that Hubber. I've been reading since the age of four and am almost 70. It's a bit late to relax my standards, and why should I? There are too many good writers, both on HP, other online venues and in print.
Surely, the geographical origin of the writers should not count (I am myself Belgian, residing in Italy, and at the moment travelling South-East Asia). I speak three languages fluently and I am annoyed when I see bad grammar or lack of punctuation in any of them, whatever the information content.
Bad grammar hurts search engines ("key word" is not the same thing as "keyword"). Also, when I look something up in Google, and find a poorly written article, I just hit the "back" button...
Most annoying for a non-native English speaker is the "your/you're" or "its/it's" type of mistakes. I usually don't get the sentence and have to read it all again...
@ Sarra Garrett - filtering writing on the site does not amount to picking on people, or imply there's discrimination. If I tried to write for a foreign language site, I'd be kicked off in a nanosecond, and I wouldn't blame them. Nor would I think I was being picked on. Even Google sees problems (either with quality, abuses, violations or something), because writers from certain countries cannot get AdSense accounts for at least six months.
People can't drive cars legally until they pass a test, and if they don't pass, they don't get a license. Is that picking on them for not having the skills to drive?
If that is the case then HP should not allow these people to write here. Maybe they (other countries) aren't from a free country but America is still free with freedom of speech. I enjoy reading some of the hubs from India as I envision their accent throughout their hubs. Those who are writing here are trying to learn the English language. Heck, I've seen forums where people are going through hubs that are written just to flag them due to the fact that a comma was put in the wrong place. I even put commas in the wrong place sometimes especially now that I can't remember the simplest of words due to my lupus. Does that make me think that I'm being flagged too? Geez. Just sayin. If someone from a non-free country wants to put their opinions and writings on a site in a free country let them. Not everyone is perfect.
This is not a matter of freedom of speech, or how charming it might be to see something that's poorly written. The site is not here for those reasons, it's here to make money, through good rankings in google and good Internet traffic. And it presents itself as having informative, good-quality writing. To attract hidden talent, it has an open-door policy. Just because someone WANTS to write doesn't mean this is the right venue for them or that it's a good fit.
Yes, there are licensed drivers who still can't drive. That's why we have traffic laws and monitors. The same goes for writing - just because someone took a course in English, it doesn't mean they have an adequate command of the language.
+1. Not a free speech issue, a quality issue. We need Google to love us. Well written content is important to reach that goal.
It's all about money, you know, greed. If HP wants to have India and Pakistan write on their site, that's their business. Why don't other countries write on HP? Huh?
I really don't buy this picture of people who are just here to learn and improve. I have recently gone through the process of finding all the copied versions of my hubs on google. Can you guess where most of the people doing the copying were from? Regardless, no-one is suggesting banning people from particular countries. I'd much rather we have a better quality control process, or a trial period for new hubbers to improve their writing. If these people are just trying to improve, they will keep joining the site and stick around until they improve. If they are just in it for the money, they'll go elsewhere.
Exactly. I wish this wouldn't turn into a race issue. I was worried I'd be accused of discriminating against Indians. It's just that nearly every example I've seen has been from Indians or Pakistanis! If they were all English or American, I would have said so.
quite a few people can't drive even with a license.
I enjoy the writing of someone who uses English as a second language. It's as if they aren't encumbered by our rules and customs and sometimes they come up with a unique way to express themselves...
Well why don't you have a chat with Google and tell them they need to rank this site based on the refreshing and unusual approach to language use?
Sorry - you have yet to see them. They're there, though.
I'm sure, we all have claws and mine come out sometimes too. This is all about free speech isn't it? or is it all about the almighty dollar? I just don't paint my nails anymore
No, it's not about free speech. Nothing on the site even suggests that. No painted nails here - never have; never will. But I do have a long history as a professional writer, and I strongly feel we need to rid the site of bad content and illegal (stolen) content. Plenty of that comes from writers who live in the USA, too, by the way.
I didn't say anything about stolen content from American writers or other writers. Darn I hate it when people put words in my mouth. America does have freedom of speech if you remember, at least we still do of sorts as we will always have censorship. People in India and Pakistan don't have freedom of speech so they write on American sites.
I'm not a professional writer (no comments on that please) and with my lastest medical setback have been having a very difficult time remembering how to spell and where to put punctuation. I'm certainly not the best writer nor the worst. Kudos to you for being a professional writer, that is something I probably will never be,however, I enjoy being able to express myself here on HP freely. I don't have $$ to open my own website so here I am. Others around the world should be able to express themselves without being persecuted so they write on an American site.
My goodness people, the drop in views on HP is not caused by the Indians or Pakistanis. On any writing site there is going to be stealing of written material. Theft is everywhere like the plague and will never be stopped unfortuantely.
Some of the best writers on HP have typos in their hubs, so what. People who are not native to the English language put their words together differently, so what. Haven't you ever had a conversation with someone from a different country? I would think that if you are such the 'professional writer' that you would own your own website and write all your articles on there instead of going to an article mill site. Just sayin. Give Peace a Chance People. The world is our oyster, let's share the pearls.
I was making a point about my impression of some of the writing.. and in some cases I like it. That's it... not sure why I should talk to Google... are you being catty or was that sincere?
HP is a business. Its owners need it to make a profit. It would be nice if that didn't have to be part of the equation, but HP owners started this site to help feed their families, as far as I know. So yes, money is a factor, even if that is not too popular a notion to some.
I think one point should be made - there are thousands of very well qualified Indians, Pakistanis etc. who write quality content and add value to many writing sites, blogs etc.
If you were an early adopter of the internet writing business you may remember there was a huge influx of very poorly written content as people cashed in on the 'phenom' - when I first started writing on the web you got paid $10 and then $1 per review on epinions. I wrote several hundred very poor reviews and earned quite a bit of money.
The industry has matured and it's not so easy to earn a lot; however while we may consider the hourly rate on a writing site to be very poor, it's actually a huge incentive in some other countries where the minimum wage is far lower than in the UK and US. (This is why so many companies have outsourced to these places).
HP should allow these people to write here as long as they abide by the same rules, QAP process etc. that we do.....
The discussion is about people who do not master the English language. They have no place here, regardless of their country of origin. Many of them happen to be from Asian countries. I agree there are also many participants from Asian countries, who write well. The problem is to remove the dross.
As has been suggested so many times, a simple vetting process, in which the first three, five, ten, however many hubs are subjected to strict vetting for linguistic proficiency and lack of spinning or duplication would do the trick. Unfortunately, HP is more interested in crucifying quality writers who do not know how to get views rather than filtering out the scum that attracts views by interspersing high-value keywords among the rest of the rubbish it churns out.
It does not matter if you have a PhD from Harvard, if you can't write, using proper grammar and punctuation, then you have no business being here, and HP needs to put stop to the lousy written hubs that they feature, while idling those that are readable and of quality.
Dear Sarra Garrett... I agree with most of what you have to say. However, the last time I checked, people in India (the largest democracy in the world) still have freedom of speech! (What they don't have, thankfully, is the right to bear arms). They write on American sites not because they can't write elsewhere... People around the world will write on any and every site where they think they can make money!
My apologies, I was thinking more of Pakistan than India. Yes, and make pennies on the dollar while the site owner makes millions. The poor writing and Google is not what is bringing down the traffic. If you have a good article it will be read. Geez.
What about the people who don't write articles yet are allowed to sign on and join forums? They aren't contributing anything to the site monetarily so shouldn't they be banned? We can't ban everyone in the world there is only so much we all can do.
Up with the Commies, ban everyone.......well, that's what is being said here. Everyone in the world has the want to express themselves. Haven't you ever spoken to someone from a foreign land and had a hard time understanding their accent? "No espeaka Englais" You either write well or you don't so why waste your time in trolling around flagging people who didn't spell a word correctly. Isn't there a better way to spend your time fruitfully? Heck, I'm surprise I haven't been flagged on my articles. My writing sucks according to HP
OK, who wants to explain free speech? I don't think I have the energy.
Sara you are missing the entire point.
There is a standard for writing articles on these sites and that includes proper written English, grammar and punctuation.
There should be no exception.
Good writers sit with hubs put in idle, etc. while those of poor quality, written terribly are ignored by HP. If that is the case HP needs to lower the standards to where writers only need a pre-school writing level.
In reality, there will always be this problem. Like driving on the public roads, there will always be bad drivers, whether or not you are required to pass a test.
But we need to do what we can to keep bad drivers off the road, so they don't kill anyone. Poorly written articles supposedly kill ranking and therefore traffic, so we should do what we can to keep them to a minimum here.
I'm not talking about flagging someone for a typo. I'm talking about getting rid of poorly written trash articles that drag HP down as a site. Here's an example of what I'm talking about. This is a quote from a currently featured hub:
"Body erect techniques are not just spectators help make an impression, mainly walking on the road to overcome the pieces of wood, roots and stones, the essence of technique."
maybe they were smokin some purple haze and hit publish instead of save. They missed a couple of words.......
Crazy isn't it? This article is featured while others that conform to HP's "stellar" definition get idled. What should be done about that horrible article? Does it and others like it get a free pass because the writer does not have a good command of the English language? Meanwhile the site sinks lower and lower.
Yes, it about the money. HP is a business, not a charity. Businesses exist to make a profit; their owners are in business to make a living.
Well read up at my above comment and see what I suggested. Yet, my suggestion was shot down (2 sites and a test on initiation to determine which level you should be put in, english as a second language hubpages or hubpages). That was what i had said prior to my bad driver analogy. So yes I am offering to take the license from bad drivers or even stop them from even setting up an account, while also keeping them happy.
Rejecting my idea just makes me feel like people just came out to complain with no solutions on offer.
I thought your idea was a good one. Giving it some more thought, what test would it be? It would have to be something that can't be cheated on. I think the only way to test people would be to give them a trial period on the "beginner" site. If they can produce good quality articles without copying someone elses, allow them to move their stuff to the other site.
Trial period, or they simply write an article and hubpages could analyze it quick;y like the apprentice program. If that takes to many man hours they could simply have an automated test where you choose the answers to many multiple choice questions while being timed.
I for one, love your suggestion, Cfin! Just as Sarra G. has stated that she struggles with writing on ocassion due to lupus, I too have cognitive dysfunction from medical issues. However, I sincerly do my best to turn-out quality, easily read pieces & it wounds me a bit when I find these writers who have hubs that can barely put forth an idea or a single sentence without error, attaining higher numbers than I do when I'm sure I've given twice the effort.
Well put, and a good analogy. There will always be bad drivers, just as there will always be poorly written hubs. The cops will never catch them all no matter hard they try.
That doesn't mean we should just ignore it though - I've called the cops on the drunk driver ahead of me and I've flagged hubs for attention. I never know the results of either action, but it is something we all need to participate in just as we are with this thread.
Well wilderness, as I said, we could have a test on initiation to determine what rank you are. The bad go to hubpages MK 2(TESOL style), the good go to hubpages and get published.
Everyone is happy, hubpages manage the problem. My point is, you cannot just eliminate them, but you can successfully curb the problem from the start ie. a provisional license.
Sarra, the debate is not about the occasional typo.
Look at this hub content.
"Swahili is Spoken in Eastern African Countries such as; Kenya,Tanzania,Uganda, Rwanda and so on... Swahili is no that clicking noise most Americans Assume . So I hope you Enjoy and Hopefully i will post up more in the near future.
Swahili is different from Afrikaans.
Today there are many Laguages spoken africa such as; French,Arabic, Italian, Farsi, Hindi ect.
Here are some Basic words to practice in Swahili.
Hello - Habari Goodbye - Kwaheri I love you - Naku Penda Excuse me- Samahani Thank You - Asante Welcome - Karibu When - Lini Who - Nani You - Wewe Come - Njoo Yes - Ndiyo No - Hakuna Mother - Mamaki Father- Babaki Sister- Dadaki Brother - Ndugu Male - Kiume Female - kike"
This is the TOTAL content of the hub. Nothing else at all.
This hub was produced 3 days ago and is featured, which means a moron at MTurk rated it as being good quality and earned 5 cents for doing so.
Oh yes, I flagged it. However, Simone has told us flagging is more or less useless if the hub isn't actually doing anything to offend Google. So this shite will remain on the site. People chancing on it may well click ads to escape. Thus the low life that produced this will earn money from views and money from Adsense. If the hub happens to get lots of views, HP will be happy and do nothing about it.
Yes but the moron that let it through and the low life that produced it are the ones earning the money, off a supposed "quality" site. Meanwhile, decent authors are being gagged and deprived of income by having their hubs removed from the search engines just because of low traffic.
I would say that maybe the "quality" site isn't quality is it for "allowing" this article.
Otta Here, said what I had to say, going to spend my "quality" time doing something else like doing the dishes and walking the dogs. Maybe take a nap. Maybe just disappear and no one will know when I'll pop up again. under an assumed name. I'm tired of the politics anyway around here. No one is perfect unless they are God and I don't think He is perfect either as he created man.
Ya'll have a good one.
More pearls of wisdom from a featured hub that gratified the single brain cell of the MTurk responsible for letting it through QAP
"Once the beverage drinks are available on Western companies like U.S.A. but now these are available at almost all the countries in the world. They might produce by the same country but it made with the collaboration of a U.S.A company. The Tea we take is might be prepared from the Exports of Countries like Srilanka, India etc."
Guess the author's origin, folks!
I knew there were some terrible pre-QAP articles on HP but it is incredibly frustrating to learn articles such as this are currently being approved by the raters.
I get people from India on my hubs asking me for life advice because of the nature of some of my hubs. They don't give me the info I need, and the English is so bad, I am helpless to do anything. My husband works with many people from India who speak perfect English. I usually just tell the person on HP that I really cannot give advice based on the info, or in some cases have had to go as far as to say I am not a mental health professional. Some of these people have such awful problems, and it comes through even with badly broken English. I flag them when I hub hop, but am getting annoyed when I get long winded questions on my hubs that make no sense.
Translation: "Tea is grown in Sri Lanka and India, but can be exported all over the world."
No sh1t, Sherlock.
Another featured hub in its entirety, which satisfies the quality criteria that rule in MTurkey
"Hello Parents, my daughter is 2 now and i know we all remember bring our little bundle of joys home to jusy be waken up every three hours for feeding time and back to bed we go or to our favortie shows but now we find ourselfes deep into where we never get,our alone time well here is a few tips from the baby to do for you or you and your spouse can share alone time just like the old days.
1) put the babys favorite cartoon,on or give her or he its favorite snakes.
2) drop baby off at grandmas or daddy can stay home well you get a night out on the town
3) a nanny is plenty of help or if you have a older daughter or son ask to see if they can play with them for a hour so you and yout spouse can get alinr timr.
4) nap time with babu
5) day care can,never be too later nor early.
to rest is to relax your mind and everyone even is parents need a break once in a while. so try everything and anything to still be able to emjoy free time.
good luck to all you and your little,ones."
Oh yes, dear writer, please do give your baby a favourite snake. With luck, said snake will ensure your pathetic bloodline is extinguished....
I want to know more about that snake.
Is Randy around?
I thought you were boycotting these chicken scratch forums.
I should, but it no longer seems important to not be banned anymore. It's not as if I have anything to lose, is it?
Yes, I ticked people off enough by telling the truth without the serpent image. A much more kinder, gentler, viper as it were.
I liked the Jack Russel. Did I spell that right, or do I have spell check on Brit again?
Oooh - good one, Dear Snake Friend! Appropriate, too!
This one cracks me up. I have to say that this is much more than just poor English. Why would someone (no matter what their language is) think that this is valuable information that needs to be shared?
Jean, I would delete that stuff without compunction. It is just going to drag down your hub in Google's eyes.
You can always set up a site where people have to hit a Paypal button to get advice from you!
Thanks for that last one about the babies, WriteAngled. Seeing all these awful articles that have been approved by the QAP really had me raging, but the baby one is LOLicious.
Give the her or he its favorite snakes! Drop it off with a nanny. Drop it off with your parents. Drop it off with an older child. Its never too early for daycare! Love it! This one is gonna be a classic, I can just tell. Awesome stuff.
Before anyone jumps all over me, I am not trying to defend anyone or attack anyone!
Writeangled - in your honest opinion, out of the recent featured hubs what percentage are of adequate quality to be featured? What would you accept as a margin of error?
I'm not attacking you - I'm asking a valid question and value your honest opinion. I'm not being sarcastic - but you're probably among the top quality writers so it'll be interesting to see what your judgement is.
I'd obviously love to see a 100% 'adequacy' rate - but would a 98% suffice? 2% slip through the cracks (and captured later) would seem OK to me.
BTW I define 'adequacy' by the average writer not by the top quality writer - so it has to be readable, have good grammar (not perfect), looks good and overall can be considered good....
+1 There will always be those few that slip through and we need to accept that. Even if they're NOT caught later. No system will ever be perfect and like you I would find a 98% accuracy acceptable and even a 95%. Or 90% if that's the best that can be done (though I would certainly hope for better than that).
Along with that is cost. Judging from the complaints of people that can't pass the MTurk test, they've made the requirements of being a rater so high that they're on the verge of not being able to hire any. I think I even saw a recent mention that they're short of people there. Yes, they could probably make it even harder, pay $10 a hub and still get people but that isn't a workable solution.
SimeyC, thank you for your assessment of my contributions. I regret to say it is not shared by Google or HP going by my hits and my well under $5 monthly revenue.
Given the fact it took me less than 10 seconds to find the rogue hubs I featured, I would guess that a huge number are passing through the controls.
With respect to a margin of error on hubs becoming featured, I expect 0%.
Firstly, because the MTurks are supposed to match a predefined quality standard or else be dropped. If the predefined quality standard allows this sort of garbage through, then it is lacking.
Secondly, because the MTurks are siphoning off money that would otherwise go to authors. I cannot fail but connect the decreases in revenue that so many people have mentioned with the fact that MTurkers are parasitising off this site with payments for their inadequate quality assessments.
Thirdly, because genuine authors with genuine hubs are suffering the effects of inaccurate assessment by these mainly uneducated and unskilled amateurs. Oh, is this a harsh perception? Who but an unskilled and uneducated amateur would sell their time for 5 cents a rating, apart from, perhaps, a few hubbers who feel they might as well get 5 cents per Hopper ride rather than nothing at all. After all, 5 cents is probably more than most hubbers receive as daily revenue from their hubs.
This is perhaps the most galling part of the equation. HP is willing to pay people (even if at a risible rate), who have no investment in this site whatsoever. Given the various secret revenue programs that already exist here, e.g. APs, it surely would not have been difficult to factor in a payment scheme through the on-site Hub Hopper for HP members who wish to rate hubs. This could have been set up so as to reject people who made a lot of "outlier" assessments. At the very least, this would have ensured the quality assessment was being conducted by people with an interest in the continued success of the site.
I totally agree - but I also understand there are always ways to 'work' the sytem - so there will always be some slippage. I feel a very high rate of say 98% is potentially achievable....
Alas, it is not being achieved by the system as it stands.
Thus, we are suffering a double whammy. Some of our earnings are being diverted away to people doing an inadequate job, and their inadequacies are costing us reputation.
That's why I asked - I'd be interested in what the current success rate - 50%, 75%, 20%? I had a very quick look of the first couple of pages and it looked like at least 8 out of 10 were OK - but I really need to go through about 500 hubs to get a decent stat.
Of course - that's only my opinion of the hubs I saw - not necessarily right!
You nailed it, WA - I was okay with the idea of having my new hubs in limbo for a few hours, because I thought maybe we finally had at least a metal detector on the gate to catch the smoking guns, but it's disheartening to see this sort of junk (what we've seen on the thread) pass through and continue to drag down the site.
Hi Simey. Where did you get the 98% figure from? Is this merely an example or has anyone actually given an estimate of the percentage which gets through?
No - it's what I would accept - I have no idea what the actual percentage is - hence the question to Writeangled/.
I've got an idea, lets ask HP what percentage of these types of Hubs get by the QAP or MTurk process so we can tell what point they're at in the matter of actually having a decent system. Obviously there is a very bad problem with it now as WA pointed out as she found all of this she linked to in a very short time.
Personally, it looks as if HP actually likes this kind of stuff because folks may click on the ads simply to get away from the page. This type of trick is what caused all of the trouble in the first place with Google. Frankly, all this talk of "quality" by TPTB, and seeing what they purposely--yes purposely because I don't believe a program could be this terribly designed by professionals--allow to get through, tends to make me leery of believing the HP line. Just saying.
Seems like when you put ppl before money the world is a better place.
And the English on this one is perfect - http://liveleigh.hubpages.com/hub/LinkedIn-Profile-Tips
From the featured hubs list, and published 15 hours ago.
This one, published on the 15th of January, is identical.http://www.diverse-employment.co.uk/linkedin-profile-tips
Now it might be the same author, but that is not the point. Why is the QAP passing copied content while idling perfectly good, original, hubs?
I regret the dearth of official response from HP staff.
They have already spun us the line that they think subjecting all new hubs to QAP is more important than getting rid of the spun junk and soft porn that litters the underbelly of this site.
However, it appears that QAP is penalising genuine hubbers while letting lots of illiterate stuff through. HP, don't you think this is a rather important deficit that should be addressed? Perhaps your decision to leave the matter to anonymous and underpaid minions who cannot even manage to become McD burger flippers was a big mistake? But no, you will never admit to that, will you?
For your delectation, as we await a response, here is an Indian auntie hub, with beautiful pixelated and watermarked images, that has survived on HP for 5 years:
And you have the nerve, HP, to say that it is more important to punish authors of new content than to get rid of this junk!
How about a hub that tells you EVERYTHING you need to know to visit this place (wherever it is... )
Once again, featured courtesy of MTurk morons
I think the excuse that the occasional crap hub is fed in to ensure MTurkeys are on the ball rather falls flat given the number of duds it is possible to find in just a few minutes of searching.
It ain't a valid excuse - it just gives an open door opportunity to use it over and over again whenever challenged.
HP still 'promote' misleadingly that it takes 2 minutes to join and you can write on whatever you like! Does no one in the design dept or 'page retirement' dept feel morally obliged to actually improve THAT page, remove the thoughtless misconceptions and potentially head off 1mill BS pages?
Oh and Everyone....
Sorry about my last post and it's timing relevance to this exercise.... But I don't appreciate the abusive attitude of the OP..... or being called out as a troll...
...and now you act like a victim. At least be original.
back off Thomas...PD is a great guy...you just don't get him
Hey PD....still wearing sandals....or switching to winter gear now....i think you should rent a bike when you are in SF and scoot along the coast with me!
I was under the impression pearldiver was a woman. maybe I missed the boat on that one.
I have a great one for that, but I am not that impulsive.
I joined twice this evening. I got banned and came back after I ate dinner. I felt like messing with yahoos on google. I might even put up a hub. Please vote up and interesting!
Yes, maybe we got off on the wrong foot. I find it difficult to hold a grudge longer than a few hours.
Oh dear... well if you can't hold a grudge then you'll never get the coveted "Angry Hubber" accolade. Only 10 are given out a year. The competition is fierce
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Well less than 100 words. Actually breaks the rules on more than one point as it is just a short introduction to get the reader to go to another site.
Passed the MTurkers though. What a great job they are doing!
Interesting thing about MTurk hub raters. First, their accuracy is determined by how close their ratings come to standards defined by HubPages. If they do not rate a hub the way it would be rated by HP, they're accuracy levels drop. So, ultimately, if HP thinks that fewer than a hundred crap words is worthy of being on the site, and it's rated poorly by MTurk, the MTurk worker is penalized.
So, ultimately, are these hubs passing a quality standard set by MTurk workers, many of whom are English degree holders and excellent writers in their own rights, or are those rating the hubs forced to conform to a lax quality standard already set in place by HubPages?
I haven't rated one single hub during my week at MTurk and I've already made 2/3 of what I've made at HP in two years.
Take up the quality issues with HubPages. It's not the MTurk folks you have a beef with. If you want to be the ones making the money to rate hubs, then maybe you should petition HP to offer that option to hubbers.
Just a thought.
Apparently not many folks can write cruddy enough to pass HP's MTurk standards. This must be what Derek was speaking of when he said the bar was set extremely low.
The point is that it is not an MTurk standard. It is an HP standard. Don't like the QAP standards? Take it up with HP.
Tell me how one does that, MO? How would you go about discussing something of this nature with those who know this thread is going on and still sit back and say nothing? I'm open for your thoughts on this. No, I'm as serious as a heart attack. Have you not noticed it's like pulling teeth to get a straight answer from them? Watch this:
Hey HubPages, what's the deal with all of the crud getting by your QAP? Or is this stuff considered "quality"? Straight forward and to the point, no? Now let's see what a concise answer we get, and when.
Wish I knew, Randy. Apparently, though, the forums are not the way.
And emails don't cut it either as the identity of those you converse with is usually not revealed. So see, the forums are the only place to get one's voice heard. But this doesn't prevent them from sticking their fingers in their ears and going, "wawawawawawawawawawa..............................................., apparently!
The suggestion sounds feasible at first glance.........but that's all, sadly.
Well, now you are earning money off hubbers' backs? All our earnings are down per thousand views, so we can only assume some of that money has gone to pay the Turkeys.
Please read my post again. I have not rated a hub in my time at MTurk. I choose not to do so. Whether HP is paying money to Turkers that you feel you should be earning is something of which I know nothing. You would need to ask HP staff about that? The only money I earn at HP is what comes from the pitiful traffic that comes my way.
I chose when I signed up with MTurk not to rate hubs as part of my work there.
I think you misunderstood my post.
Without rating hubs, I make more at MTurk than at HP. That was part of my point. The most important part of my point is that QA standards are set by HP. If you don't like that HP uses MTurk, talk to them.
Yeah, sorry, I did misunderstand your post.
I still don't actually understand it. You make money there but you don't rate hubs? Oh maybe you do something else...doh!
I am not one of those that HP staff will listen to. If I have anything to say, I say it on the forums.
Taking you out of it altogether (and sorry again), the Mturk rating thing isn't working. Instead it is angering a lot of dedicated hubbers who find their work unfeatured simply because it didn't 'take off' in the search engines right away.
In my experience, most don't. But many gradually gain traffic, if given enough time.
The problem on this site is the thousands of substandard hubs that are in existence, and to a certain extent the QAP has stemmed the flow, but not stopped it.
HP managed to limit the 'exclusive hubs' to those with a hubberscore of 80 or more.
So hubscores can be used to weed out substandard hubs, if they chose to do so at one fell swoop.
The trouble is, they don't seem to want to, because many of those hubs brings in views and money.
They need the money to survive.
Equally, some of those hubs are almost certainly harming the site.
There is something very wrong going on at the moment.
We have high quality hubs with high scores getting idled through lack of traffic, while some scribble from a third-rate writer stays featured because it is getting hits.
Google says they hate poor quality content, yet they still send traffic to it.
But it does seem that they have downgraded the site because of this low quality content, so I think HP should wipe the slate of all the dross, and do everything they can to encourage quality hubs, and that includes not 'un-featuring' them.
Izzy, I totally get you. I also agree with you to a point. I'm not one of those that staff would listen to either. The best I can do (and I do it ALL the time) is to hop, flag, and hope for the best.
And, yup, I do other things on MTurk. Some writing tasks, some data entry, some transcription, and some survey work.
I think some of the ruffled feathers come from the fact that while it may be agreed that HP's MTurk endeavor isn't as successful as we'd like it to be, it can't really be taken out on the Turkers - at least IMO.
Give me a break. You people from the UK don't even know how to spell color.
Actually, I think you'll find we taught you English, but you chose to ignore it. Maybe the early settlers were a bit illiterate and you are stuck with it now LOL
Don't be so high fallutin'. You don't even have pockets on your pool table.
This is just the sort of uneducated statement I might expect from a MTurker.
I would love to see trial or provisional membership of some kind here. It has been brought up many times in the past, but so far HP has rejected the idea. Maybe some day....
Perhaps instead of criticizing some writers, time would be better spent helping them? Just a thought! At least they're trying and more importantly, probably enjoy writing!
HP managed to limit the 'exclusive hubs' to those with a hubberscore of 80 or more.
So hubscores can be used to weed out substandard hubs, if they chose to do so at one fell swoop.
However - the stellar writer we have both reported (with the copied hub about alcohol) has a Hubber score of more than 80. And that's not the first person I've seen with a high Hubber score but questionable content.
(Edited. Trying to do forum posts on a mobile. Not winning the contest.)
If they put software in place to deal with those their mysterious hubscore already dealt with, they would then have time to look at flags other hubbers put on those that escaped through the net.
No system is perfect, but that would get nearer it.
They don't want to do this because this system would catch out some of their highest trafficked hubs.
It is not just the content that hubpages look at. The frequency of hubs or the turnaround seems to be a bigger factor?
You can have complete garbage and keep turning it over and have a high hub score. It is great to encourage more hubs, but not at the expense of quality. Also just because a hub does not get alot of hits does not mean it is low quality. It might just be a niche not many people search for.
Of course! You look just like Beyonce. How could anything else even be inferred?
Its a pic of a lion on one of our fountains.
Oh dear, it's so obvious now you've said.... I thought it was a goat with a towel on its head!
It may well be in my case! My Dad always said "Two heads are better than one, even if one of them is a goat head." Art is not really my strong point.
If I were from a nation different from the US, I would be feeling a bit uncomfortable right now and most certainly unwelcome... as I stated earlier, I think ppl are more important than money. Maybe that's a little too Mayberry for this crowd. lol
It's ok Beth, there are plenty of people from the US who struggle with their writing. Perhaps you misunderstood this thread. We're saying writers who can't string a sentence together shouldn't be allowed through the quality control process. Many of us have noted that the majority of these users come from Asia.
Oh, and I had to delete the unattractive comment you left on my hub. That wasn't very nice at all!
What comment was that? Ive printed other ppls comments that were hugely unnecessary and unkind, with the exception of a porn site posting. I don't remember what I said, but I can't imagine it was so bad?!
And not every comment has said they're bothered by ppl not being able to string 2 sentences together... some ppl's comments seem way more pointed and unkind, and by that, I mean racial.
On my "Does God Exist? Ask a Cognitive Scientist" hub, you said something like "The title of this thread is killing me. It's like asking a vegetarian how to eat beef" or something like that. Pretty unnecessary, and I'm sorry something I said in this thread prompted it. There is actually a field of study called the cognitive science of religion that has done more to explain religious belief in the last 20 years than we've previously managed in our entire history.
Oh, now I remember what comment I made... it was a very good comment. Im surprised you weren't confident enough to post it.
Given some of the unpleasantness in this thread, I wasn't ready for another argument. The internet is slowly turning me into a fascist!
Well, we don't seem to lack for foreign writers on this site--you've seen the terrible examples posted on this thread--so apparently it doesn't keep them away enough. We even allow people from Tennessee to write here on rare occasions! (J/K)
Im not bothered by it... if they can stomach my work, I can stand theirs.
I am a person from a country other than the US (ok I now live in the UK but I am not originally from here). The thread doesn't make me feel uncomfortable at all. It's not about where you're from, it's about whether you can write in English.
I doesn't makes any difference where people are from, but if they can't write in English they should not try to earn money by writing, simples.
Im glad. I have wondered a few times if ppl don't join to practice their English... I just don't like it when ppl are small, you know? It's not hard to be generous.
Oh poor you, don't they have compare the meerkat ads in troll land? How sad that you are so culturally deprived. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTSCUYcp20A
OMG you are of those - what are they called -meerkats.
I was away from the UK for a number of years and came back to them - only their parent company are thinking of retiring them. No no no no! Not my meerkats.
I am not fed up with them. Bring them on
Yep, one of the better things on the telly nowadays. Didn't hear anything about meerkats being "idled". Might start a FB campaign to save them.
What are the meerkats? It's so interesting cause I was on another forum where one of the trolls said he was German and always used a pic of a meerkat. I wonder if there is a connection.
I can't find the links just now, but I did read about them the other day.
To those who have not heard about them
is actually the same as comparethemarket.com
The folks behind an insurance comparison site developed a very clever play on words.
With animated meerkats to follow through.
Appropriate to this thread, they speak in broken English.
Coronation Street, the longest running soap opera in the world. has a cat that sits in wall.
This new company has an advert with their junior,animated meerkat hop skipping jumping along the wall until it reaches the resident Coronation Street cat.
Just a look, that's all it takes.
Izzy is not the one hiding behind a recently invented profile here is she?
Right here, right now, let it be known that I do not post in the forums on another name, unless by accident.
I am surprised, actually, that you might think otherwise, 2uesday. You know me well enough,
Who is hiding?
Izzy was not my guess at all. Apparently I had it right. That guy cracks me up.
I'm not sure why a troll would pick this tread to post? What hubber feels so threatened by hubbers discussing copied/spun/low quality content passing through the QAP? And yes plenty gets passed through. Is HP standard this low? Are they really serious about maintaining site wide quality? As WriteAngled said; it takes 10 sec to find these hubs. They are not hidden they are featured and promoted as if they were high quality.
Sorry about your nephew
I think at this point we all know how 'Cockothenorth' is. He has done his best to de-rail any useful comments. it'll be his last, because we have sussed him.
You say what? You sure are clever! I left links all over the place http://www.wdc3art.com/
I'm in Florida, not the north, honey buns. It is weird what makes you happy.
I am at that. This is a cheezy, free Intuit site. I don't recommend them. ADOBE MUSE!
Hubbers! If I were being anonymous, would I leave links?
so you had every barnyard animal to choose from and you went with the chicken?
Personally? Ive never been asked that question before.
Somehow Ive avoided most barnyard animals. Ive met a couple of weasels though.
Sorry Izzy, maybe that was not clear in my comment but it was not about you.
No probs hun
I read your original comment again. Shows how easily mistakes can be made?
Thanks Izzy, maybe the forums here are not the best place for me to be.
I am sorry for you and your family, a terrible loss.
2uesday, please stay on the forums. I'm sorry I misread your post, really!
Wow - I missed so much in my drive home from work!
Ummm trying to get back to the main point - is anyone willing to take a look at say the last 50 hubs featurd and give an objective score of how many should have been featured? Just a ball park - if multiple people did that (me included) we could at least see how good or bad the system is working?!
You'd also need some numbers on how many DIDN'T get through as well.
Unfortunately that isn't a stat that's available - at least if we had a stat says 30 are good, 20 are poor then we actually have something to base complaints on - simply picking the bad ones doesn't prove anything without context.
I don't think that an influx of people who can't write proper English is subject to just one group of people, nor is it subject to writing, as more and more people are talking with improper English. These people come from many demographics. I only hope that they will soon invest their time to improve their English where ever they come from or if they have a native language to go back to using it. I'd much rather get a translator and translate what they have to say rather than start thinking that the dumbing down of the nations is in full effect.
I've noticed a lot of my new watches are from other countries.
And you know what? So what if they have trouble with English. They are trying their best. I know it can make certain hubs look unprofessional, but they should be given a chance.
I flag a hub if it looks bad regardless of where the person is from. Plus I've seen worse writing from those that have English as their native language.
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