Have you ever noticed as you browse the forums that there is a set group of people that one would presume owns HubPages? The ones who will be sarcastic and/or disagree with each and every forum post that they respond to? It is like a clique out there and you will see them respond one right after the other.
I addressed this several years ago when I first started on HubPages and even wrote an article about it that is published elsewhere. Those who think they are better, more informed, and above everyone else who may not understand an issue or could be having problems. These are perfect people in their eyes I am sure. They never have had any questions and were born into the world "all knowing".
It is much better and by far shows much more intelligence to respond without the sarcasm, a downgrading tone of response and the "all knowing" attitude.
Just my thoughts as I do get rather tired of seeing such disrespect towards others.
I see it too, typically by the same three women over and over and over again. It's not vulgar, doesn't call names and is typically an intelligent comment though mean spirited and designed to denigrate the reader. It's offensive. While I agree that it is cyber bullying, it is sadly also within the limits of what is considered a violation and what is not. On the plus side, they do seem to be equal opportunity mean meaning they do it to everyone.
Personally, I've simply gotten to where I ignore them completely. They are smart. There can be no doubt about that and at times they will even throw out a grain or two of good advice and useful information but it's so buried in obvious self glorifying horn touting in an effort to place themselves above others I simply refuse to read or respond to it in any way.
There are very few ways to have me resolve to never, ever, for any reason click on an article, link, recommendation or share from anyone, but you hit on it with this question. I wouldn't read something by one of them if it truly did tell how to turn mud into gold.
Thanks Rhonda for the further in depth information along the lines of the folks I was writing about. It is good to know that I am not alone in my findings deep within the walls of the forum threads! You hit the nail on the head narrowing it down to a specific number of folks and I think you are pretty accurate in your assessment of the situation.
You are not imagining it Dale. I too have felt that the 'helpful' responses from those few individuals are rude and condescending. I try to avoid those "enlightened ones".
Always good to hear I am not in a world alone in my thoughts and perceptions. Thank you.
I can't imagine having enough time in my day to spend perusing forums with an attitude.
Why in the world would anyone want to spend all day switching back
and forth between real life and such passive/aggressive 'helping?' It's the adult version
of bullying and it's quite a sad situation for them; in reality, it's called 'displaced anger
(and/or utter sadness and displeasure with one's own personal life)'.
Life is oh, so precious--too precious to spend on forums in the manner--and most troubling--the FREQUENCY that some do: this from someone whose own husband dropped dead unexpectedly
and week before Christmas (try telling 11 y/o twin boys their dad was gone forever with a Christmas tree in the background) .
So, yeah I know a few things about how real life is literally a minute-by-minute gift. Spend it wisely
and thoughtfully, folks.
Feel empathy for these folks; they can't sort their feelings enough to fix whatever it is
that's really bothering them. I wish I could reach out to many of those that are troubled,
I really do. SO sad.
I deeply regret not having responded to this post when I first saw it. Moments ago I remembered reading it, and raced back to write to you. You make some very valid and worthy points. Please don't think they went unnoticed.
I agree with you 100% .. about everything. I received a phone call very close to last Christmas saying one of my adult children who lived interstate was dying and I feared I might not make it to her bedside in time. Since then it has been a major task to keep her alive. Fortunately in our case, she has had unexpected improvement.
With that pain still real and raw, I simply can't imagine how dreadful it must have been to have lost your husband ... and to break the news to your children at Christmas. It seems so unfair that a time that should be happy and exciting for your kids will forever be marred by their dad's death.
You are absolutely right, HomeArtist1. Life is oh, so precious.
What a compassionate woman you are, wishing you could reach out to many of those who are troubled. I have no doubt they could benefit from your strength and experience.
I look forward to seeing more of your posts on forums, and I promise never to leave your words unacknowledged again. Of course I'm not on the forums very often, but hopefully others will also keep an eye out for your words of wisdom.
I'll be thinking of your family at Christmas. Take care.
With my sister battling cancer, I completely agree that life is precious and too short, and feel deeply for what both you and HomeArtist1 have said and are going through.
Very glad to hear that your daughter is improving, LongTimeMother.
Thank you Lionhrod. When my daughter was blind and bed-bound and neurologists offered no hope for improvement, her beautiful fighting spirit kicked in. I am immensely proud of her for finding the strength to go on, and her determination to explore alternative methods for healing. She can currently walk and see, and no longer requires a full-time carer. She's not in the clear yet (her MRIs show increasing brain and spine damage, contrary to her surprising lack of visible symptoms), but we continue to implement unorthodox remedies and continue to hold hope.
Sadly for HomeArtist1, a sudden death doesn't offer the opportunity to search for remedies. Nor does it give us the chance to choose our final words. I am pleased that there is nothing left unsaid to my daughter. I certainly feel for HomeArtist1.
Sending my best wishes to your sister and your families. I hope she wins the battle.
Wow. If you don't mind my asking, what was your daughter diagnosed with? From your description, I'm imagining a brain tumor.
I can't imagine suddenly (or even over a slow and longer period) losing my husband. I am amazed at the positive energy that HomeArtist1 expresses. I don't know if I could do the same.
Sending white light and love to both of you.
Sis isn't in the clear yet. It's rectal cancer, and allegedly much worse than colon cancer. She's becoming an expert on diets and natural cures, but it's scaring the heck out of all of us. She does not want chemo/radiation/traditional therapy and...I'm terrified. I respect her desire for a natural cure, but the longer these don't work the more danger she is in.
Sorry for your pain and suffering , we all are going through our own trials and suffering as well. The bible does say. New World Translation Ro 8:22 For we know that all creation keeps on groaning together and being in pain together until now.
Many here have experienced your pain, and yet they find a way to cope by talking to each other, and considering other subjects to think about.
You so happen to turn hubpages on and find others talking about other things that does not fit your problems at this time. How could we know your pain until you informed us. What I can share with you what is helping many people !
New World Translation 2Pe 3:13 But there are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell.
Reference Bible Isa 33:24 And no resident will say: “I am sick.” The people that are dwelling in [the land] will be those pardoned for their error.
Reference Bible Re 21:4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”
Your pain and suffering will come to an end according to God's word.
So please remember this is a promise!
I've noticed as well, Dale.
Just recently while searching the forums to see if a question had already been asked about something I was pondering, I ran across a few very nasty comments directed toward people asking questions of similar topics I was searching for, that made me cringe. These comments were from a person that was so very rude to the posters, clearly intending to be condescending, it was as if they enjoyed it. This person never said anything technically "ban-able" but I couldn't help but wonder, if such blatant seething, smarta** remarks are made toward someone simply asking for help, why doesn't HP step in somehow and just give a heads-up to the offender? Perhaps an email addressing their community interaction skills, etc. It would make for a better community, I would think.
Seeing how the people asking for help was treated by this rude person honestly made me hesitant about posting the question I was pondering.
Mel, I believe a lot of people stay clear of the forums for that reason exactly: they do not want to put themselves in a situation where they will be attacked with sarcasm and intimidation.
There is a 'report' button on each post that probably should be used more often every time we encounter such rude, out of place comments that turn others away from the forums. All the forums are open to every one and no one should feel they cannot join just because of a few bad apples. You know what I do with bad apples? I toss them out for they spoil the pie.
I know exactly what you are saying. I have noticed the same Dale, and am loath to ask questions in here unless I really have to. I have commented on this elsewhere also, but it doesn't seem to change. I am sure these people think they are being helpful but their tone comes across as condescending rather than encouraging. they need to do a course in people skills.
They need a course in professionalism. Professionalism means that one acts civilly at all times. Professionalism means that one is mature and uses tact when addressing and interacting with others. If one finds others bothersome, DON'T enter the forums at all!
You addressed what I have been thinking about this Hubpages community these days. It does not really bother me that they "know-all" because what bothers me more than that are their rude comments, and sarcasm. Like common, get a life people!
I have taken note of those attitudes, as well. It can be very off-putting to people who are new here and trying learn the ropes and make connections. People should feel welcome in forums, rather than berated and disrespected. I've been tempted many times to take shots at bullies but in the end it's probably not worth the aggravation. Just ignore them.
Dale, yes I've noticed a few certain individuals that habitually answer with decidedly condescending tones, as if anyone that disagrees with their answers or opinion are just ignorant. Then there is one in particular that answers with quite the air of superiority, as if she believes she was put on this earth for the sole purpose of being the unofficial HP's administrator brownnoser. These folks can be frustrating, but most times I just find their overgrown sense of worth amusing and ignore them.
OUCH, SPOT ON, this person can be quite acerbic.
Okay, I admit, I had to look it up, "acerbic":
"sharp, sarcastic, sardonic, mordant, trenchant, cutting, razor-edged, biting, piercing, stinging, searing, scathing, caustic, bitter, acrimonious, astringent, abrasive, harsh, wounding, hurtful, unkind, cruel, virulent, vitriolic, venomous, malicious, vicious; informalbitchy; rareacidulous, mordacious"
After doing so, yes indeed! I fully love that adjective and it is pretty accurate for what we are discussing here for the most part!
Perfect description, come to think of it there are two that comes to mind.
What I don;t quite understand is, if someone is tired of answering the same questions over and over, or if they feel burdened by helping people out in the forums, JUST DON'T. Is it that these people feel exhausted about the questions asked? Do they feel that it's their duty to correct every incorrect statement made or do they just see people as being stupid? Those are the impressions they form by their actions.
Totally agree with you. There are certain people here that do not welcome comments, suggestions or complaints. Sadly, some work for Hubpages as well. As a writer, I don't feel welcome here anymore and have been working to take my articles elsewhere.
I was a victim of those "high-attitude and sarcastic" you know who they are. I really hate it, it seems that they know everything that they see people so low. That is why I seldom communicate here and on forums, it's like they see you as trash. lmao. I hate it...
I have seen and met people with there expertise but they remain humble and the way they talk, you can feel the "down-to-earth-factor". Thanks for addressing this, I do not have the guts to do this. Hope they will remain humble, teach with respect and low pride.
I have been into some forums before and this situation cannot be avoided. I am new in this site and haven't fully explore the site but if I would have to encounter such kind of people, perhaps I would just refrain from interacting with them.
It would be another issue if they would directly throw negative words against me or my people in general.
Comments should not be offensive to others. Being polite is best,
Dale, I have come across the same sort of cliques on HubPages from time to time. Not a good thing, but part of human nature I suppose. For some perspective on this, read some of the forums outside of HubPages that are critical of what goes on at this site (Google "HubPages Reviews" or "Is HubPages a Scam". I found it amusing to hear what those who had left HubPages had to say about this site.
I haven't read any of the posts replying to you, so I apologize if this has been brought up already. However, I can tell you something based on my own experiences in the past. I know when I used to be active on hubpages regularly almost everyone on forums had their own cliques that they hung out with on here.
Most hubbers didn't even bother talking to you at all if they didn't know you, as they usually stuck within their own clique. That is unless you said something they didn't agree with, and in which case they'll flock to you in droves just to try to prove you wrong; even if they happen to be the ones in the wrong.
I'm not sure if much has changed since then because I'm not as active in forums as I used to be, but from what I've seen it doesn't seem like much has really changed. I mean I open up forums all the time based on topics that interest me, and I'm usually lucky if I get like maybe one or two responses. Whereas in the past when most of my clique was on hubpages regularly, I usually hosted some of the more popular forums on hubpages because of them. These days not so much.
As far as these cliques go, I think I know which one your talking about specifically, but I hesitate to say because I'm not in the mood to deal with any b.s. However, I will tell you this.
"F**k them." I mean think about it. Who are they? Why do you care what some arrogant pompous a** who thinks they're high and mighty think about you? Just say "F*ck them", and then don't even waste your time on them.
Well I don't think most of us would ever want to literally f*** them but in the sense you are using I do agree. Although the reason it was brought up (for me anyway) was more because of how these jerk offs react to new hubbers especially. What a great way to drive away new potential which could help the site. Snub someone once. They may forgive it. Snub someone twice. It'll probably piss them off. Snub someone three times why wouldn't they want to leave the site? If no one will help answer questions or give coherent explanations which won't leave them feeling like an idiot then hubpages is certainly not going to be a site they would recommend. Would I personally recommend hubpages to a 'newbie' who I know is a great writer looking for help? I have once and warned them over the forums immediately. I shouldn't have to attach a 'warning' to a recommendation. So for now, I will point them elsewhere.
Well to be fair, i wasn't referring to all hubbers in my last post. However, i do see what you mean though, as I too have had some bad experiences on hubpage forums; sometimes through no fault of my own. Granted, I'm not going to lie and say that I've been a saint throughout my time on this site either, but there have been times where I've found myself in a conflict with someone on forums, when I wasn't even trying to offend anyone.
For instance, I said "the Matrix" trilogy sucked and it was overrated to someone, when I was just joking around. And through no fault of my own, I found myself being attacked by a couple of hubbers, who I wasn't even talking to, and they started questioning my competence and intellect to comprehend the movies themselves. It's laughable because it's like those two idiots fail to comprehend that ALL MOVIES are subjective; hence if you don't like a movie that someone else loves, then it does NOT make you stupid. It just means you have different tastes. Nothing more or less. Anyone who says otherwise is a moron...like the two hubbers that I just referenced for instance, but I won't embarrass them by citing their names on here like I could, as they know who they are. Besides, what kind of person would I be if I tried to shame them when they weren't around to defend themselves? Plus, it's in the past anyway, so who cares?
However, I do want to tell you that not all hubbers are like the ones your probably describing. It's just that most hubbers won't talk to someone they don't know fairly well. If you want to make friends and form your own clique on hubpages, or join a clique, then there are ways you can do that.
Like if you open up a forum asking hubbers how adsense or whatever works, then that's one way you can get hubbers to talk to you. Or if you want to do one of those random hubpage forums like "the last person to post wins" or whatever, you can always try to say hi to people on there and see what happens. Granted, you won't get a response most of the time if they don't know you, but sometimes you might. And if you do, then try to make the most of it by starting up a conversation. Participate in forum topics that interest you.
If you see a hubber on hubpages that talks about topics you like, and you decide to check out their profile to check out their writing. You can comment in some of their hubs, and you can usually start to develop a rapport with someone that way.
Granted, I know none of these methods are guaranteed to make people on here talk to you, but they can work sometimes to make friends on here, as I did that when I first started out on this site, and it did work for a while. Although it's been ages since I've been active on this site regularly through forums, but if things are close to being the same as they used to be, then it's worth a shot.
I think the thing you should take from what I'm saying is that you shouldn't let a few bad apples ruin you from meeting some of the good hubbers out here on this site. I'm sure you'll find your own clique on hubpages. You just haven't found it yet. However, once you find your own clique, then I think you'll be fine.
Another word of advice though is that it might be best not to take things too personal on this site, as many hubbers kind of have a motto about if you get offended by what they say, then it's your fault because you chose to be offended. Granted, I can see their point, but it's kind of a flawed logic to some degree as well if you think about it.
However, the thing is sometimes some hubbers that criticize you will think what they're saying is harmless even though it's not, and if you get offended by it, then they'll see it as you choosing to be offended. My advice to you is try not to take what most people in forums tell you too personally, as sometimes the hubber you may be talking to might seem like they're talking down to you, but that might not be their intention. Just don't let anyone get under your skin, and just be yourself. Even if you don't succeed at making friends on here, then nobody can take that away from you.
And if all that doesn't work and people still hate you, then "f*** them." Haters going to hate. Or like James Franco said in "The Interview", "They hate us because they ain't us!" (joke) Sorry, I wanted to end my comment on a high note to make everyone here laugh. I hope it worked.
If you see disrespect I suggest reporting it. I have seen such posts deleted many times. Other than that, don't feed the trolls.
I don't feed trolls, however I do feed those that this post is directed at.
Edit: Also, most of the time it is not a reportable offense. It is the attitude and the looking down upon others that is reflected that shows a total lack of respect and proves the ones responding have absolutely no professionalism in any part of the mind, soul or body.
I agree with you on that, Dale. There are some who really and truly help because they do not have an attitude of "I am better than everyone" - instead these few I am thinking of have an honest, sincere, and caring about helping others learn.
The ones you are talking about are always butting in and causing problems in a very subtle way that cannot be reported - it is their attitude and tone and the fact that they always try to take control away from the OP. I read some of their posts and am astonished that no one comes right out and tells them to back off. They have the attitude that all should fear them and not dare go against them. I had to flat out tell one to stop what that one had started and then was able to work things out with the person I had addressed. Intruders who stir up trouble need to be told to back off.
Phyllis, Long time no see. There is a more apt phrase to use regarding such people; however, this phrase is quite bannable! Here's a synopsis of the situation at hand:
There are THOSE who simply love to psychologically undermine other's sense of self and worth. They really do not care about others but THEMSELVES. They contend that they are the supreme ubermenschen. Two come to mind! There was one who each time I posted something, would make a snarky remark. I reported the person and IT STOPPED! People who constantly intrude should be PERMANENTLY BANNED from the forums.
Hi GM - good to see you. You hit the nail on the head when you said, "There are THOSE who simply love to psychologically undermine other's sense of self and worth."
I do not believe that any of us here are "reading into" anything, rather we are telling it as it is from constant experience of interacting with those two or reading what they have written to others. Sometimes it is very difficult for me to not jump in to a post they wrote to another member and blast them - but, sometimes it is necessary to come to the support of another hubber who has been rudely ridiculed.
I did once. I told one off before. I don't think I was rude I just told the person my mind. The person hasn't really bothered me since. I have tried to be nice to that person when on the same forums, I even try to be friendly, directing comments at them. They just ignore me now...lol
A couple years ago there was another person who would post opposing replies on every forum I was and one day someone insulted me. Instead of replying the same way I said something nice. She emailed me that she was astonished and how she was impressed at my response, and we have been friends since. I have not seen her in the forums for nearly two years. I think she ws trying to test me when I became an Elite to see how I would handle situations.
The trouble is, it becomes even more frustrating when a few others then come out in support of the offender. I suppose they're the ones who have never been bothered by the bullying and refuse to see it.
I have seen HP do something about it at times if it is within certain guidelines, Linda. But what I am referring to here is the "tone" of response, carefully orchestrated to not "violate" the rules, etc. Speaking down on folks does not always violate rules, but does do the other things I mention above.
The weird thing is I can only think of one person who does that. There are others who can be a bit sarcastic but this particular person always say how long they've been here and they carry on as if they built the darn site.
And the things that ticks me off the most is when people make suggestions for the site. They are always the first to say negative things about our suggestions.
I understand what you are saying. It is the walking a fine line, with the condescending attitude you see in responses, the I know more than you do, you are wrong I am right even if I may be wrong, but then again I am never wrong.
Thanks! At least is not just my mind running rampant.
DEFINITELY! There are those with the mobbing mentality. This is indeed cyberbullying en masse which has to stop. In a way, such behaviors are considered to be personal attacks. Personal attacks can be overt or covert actions. If one feels such to be occurring to them, press the REPORT button, it works EACH TIME-HP Team DOES respond and penalize the offenders.
Cliques, yes! Do we ever really grow up? We're older, but it seems the high school cliques prevail. :-P
Dang it, I meant to stick my tongue out. How do I do that? :- p
I think the cliques will always be around, lol. I stick my tongue out by opening my lips a tad and let the tongue roll out. As for doing it here, I have no idea!
I always wanted to write a post like this because I definitely have noticed it happening. Thank you for saying what I was afraid to.
Hmmm, Could you be reading something into responses? "Tone" sarcasm and disrespect are sometimes had to detect in writing.
I can think of one or two people who tend to be very direct in correcting people, and leave out all the BS.
I actually appreciate that approach to solving problems and improving my hubs, and find it very helpful.
Maybe we are thinking of different people.
We aren't talking about 'correcting' just asking simple questions we need to get by to have some understanding going on. There is no need to 'correct' someone for asking; now, if they are doing something which could potentially damage their position on Hubpages then correct them by all means. I also find it slightly disrespectful to question one about whether or not they are 'reading' to much into a response regarding the issue they brought up. There are plenty of things I believe people read far much into around here but I am not going to go about saying it to them. It would be rude to do so.
A great response and one that I totally agree with! Thanks.
Well this entire thread started by reading malice and collusion into the actions of some hubbers. So I think suggesting it is not actually there must equally be permitted rather than just treating the first proposition as unassailable and correct.
Or we could all just assume goodwill in each other, report name calling, and take up personal issues directly with the person involved and/or the moderators.
I don't know you nor do I know whether or not you are one of the referenced females.
I merely know that I HAVE felt bullied in the forums, intentional or not.
I also know that others have felt the same.
If you ARE one of them, then stepping into this thread with antagonism isn't helping the situation.
IF you are, then maybe it is time to consider the way you relate in your posts, and work on the tone of those.
Personally, I doubt the people spoken of in this thread were in collusion to be nasty to others. However they did make others uncomfortable, whether that was deliberate or not.
I totally respect your right to say all that, but let me just make an observation.
You don't know if this was even one of the accused, and yet you spoke in a very direct manner, lacking any friendliness at all. You simply wanted to convey a msg (again making the point that this may not even be someone who has been accused of lacking sensitivity.) So maybe you can see how easy it is to be judged as harsh when what you are is direct. Not all of us are flowery speakers. Sometimes we just offer our opinions and do so rather quickly. Communication is hard enough in real life, let alone absent of tone, facial expression or immediate follow up.
I'm usually much flowerier. I apologize for not being more so in my last post.
She said she WAS one of the referenced people. I still have zero clue if she was or not. If she's not, I'm sorry she thinks she is.
If she was - and I do NOT know that this is the case, then coming in with a slightly more apologetic tone might have been useful.
Something like, "wow, I had no clue I was coming off like that. I try to be helpful..." etc.
As I said to her, I do NOT know if she is one of the "accused".
Forgive me, I'm getting tired of this entire thread and need to retire from it and get it off "followed."
I know it wasn't meant to be that way, but at this point the thread is starting to get witch-hunty.
DEAR FOLKS: If you KNOW you are one of these mentioned, say you're sorry, strive to do better and lets all try to get past this.
Oh my gosh, can you imagine if this whole thread had been just your bottom sentence?
"DEAR FOLKS: If you KNOW you are one of these mentioned, say you're sorry, strive to do better and lets all try to get past this."
To the point, yet non offensive. You should be a HP's ambassador. Some of us (and I'm talkin' 'bout me here...) don't have the sense to put a cap on something when it's time to shut something down.
I applaud your last post.
Lionhrod, none of the accused knows, because no names have ever been mentioned, anywhere on this thread.
So all the experienced female Hubbers who spend a lot of time on the forums are wondering - is it me? It is not nice to think that people might see you as a nasty, vicious, condescending bitch, so please excuse us if people like myself and Psycheskinner are starting to get a little upset about it.
I'm sure if names were named, we would all be saying, "wow, I had no clue I was coming off like that" - but we're not being given the chance, because no one is brave enough to identify the people they're talking about.
Are names allowed to be mentioned for something like this? I actually saw someone mention one hubber and say she xxxxxxxx, and I was like, hey, is that allowed?
If names could be named I would have no problem (although brave isn't the word I would use) naming them, at least one of them. Another one I know of I (and no it's not you) wouldn't name because personally I haven't seen what others have.
Marissa...since my arrival here I have only seen you as helpful, and actually pay attention when you say something as you seem to look at all sides of an issue. I have seen you clarify, and correct, but never act out of line. That is ONLY my opinion as I can only speak for myself
Agreed that Marisa has only been helpful to me.
Thank you! I think that's the point - there is no rule about naming Hubbers in the forums. There is a rule about naming a Hubber and then attacking his/her personality, or accusing them of nasty behaviour. The point is that to me, the Hubbers here are doing exactly what they're complaining about - skating around the rules by avoiding the use of names! The women concerned may guess they are the ones being attacked but there is nothing they can do to stop it, because they are not being identified by name, only by innuendo.
My take would be - if you feel that criticising a Hubber by name would be against the rules, then criticising the Hubber anonymously is not acceptable either - especially if you give enough information about them to narrow down the potential candidates to a small number of possible alternatives.
If 'she' is me, I never said I was I one of the accused. I said I had wondered of I was. If you asked me point blank to guess, I would say I am not. But I really have no idea.
In any case I would only apologize if I felt I had done something wrong. I am responsible for what I say, not for every possible way someone might take it. And I do not feel I have said anything malicious or deliberately hurtful.
If anyone does actually feel wronged by me they will need to find a more explicit way to let me know than this thread of whispers. I am not subtle enough to untangle, as it happens, exactly who or what this thread is about. Hence my admission that I pondered whether might involve me as I do not know for sure that it does not.
" I just love the way everyone is attacking THEM on this thread without ever naming them, which means (a) they have no recourse and (b) there are at least a dozen female Hubbers wondering if they're one of the three."
"I know I am."
Yes you did say it. Unless I and possibly others misunderstood what you were saying. (Always HIGHLY possible.) That doesn't mean you actually ARE the person referenced.
I apologize for any time I ever hurt someone's feelings, got snippy, or otherwise insulted anyone without meaning to. I will strive to be a better human.
The way I read it was, "I know I am wondering, not "I know I am one of them".
I follow the forums occasionally when I want to get answers to something. I've been intrigued by this thread, as I've noticed people who are often on the forums to give answers. And yes, they do sound knowledgeable, but I'm not sure I've ever noticed long-time hubbers being offensive. I'm not on here a lot, so maybe I have no room to talk, but without mentioning names, I would have no idea about who is being referenced. This thread, while having some valid points about bullying--I'm not sure I've seen it, except with trolls or people who haven't been on HubPages to have the knowledge to share without being condescending. Sometimes hubbers just share their knowledge. Again, maybe I'm not on the forums enough to address this issue.
I trust myself to not be reading something into something.
That maybe true also, but Dale's right.
There are quite a few people that are just plain jerks.
They have no respect for people's feelings and there are quite a few that I would have LOVED to take down a notch or two.
But...that's hard to do over the internet.
Unless you pull a Jay and Silent Bob and track them down and go to their houses.
I agree with this. Most of the blunt posters are being so only to get to the point matter, and I don't think are trying to be condescending with their bluntness. Some exasperation is normal among more established users attempting to help newbies, as many people refuse to do the basic legwork to help themselves before asking for help on the forums.
I think if you feel impatient answering people's questions, then don't do it at all. Don't go to the forums and frustrate yourself and belittle the person asking the question. They may have already read your link and may still be confused by the information they gleaned there.
Actually, the only thing that puts me off creating a forum thread is that one of these might participate. I'd rather live forever with an open question in my mind.
I think most people posting links to the learning center with some brief commentary mean well. After all, if they wanted an outlet to simply be mean to people, there are many more satisfying venues for that. There certainly are some people whose responses come off as snide more often than not, but that doesn't mean wrong. At the end of the day, I'd rather receive a correct answer delivered snidely than a wrong answer politely!
It's true that the LC is now more overwhelming and unwieldy than before, and harder to navigate than most sites' user guidelines. But if the learning center entry raises more questions, then progress is made because the OP can then ask a more specific question, and by showing an effort to help themselves, they will get more in-depth, less blunt responses.
I think you are correct, most mean well. However who is to say that some or one does not also enjoy being mean to people in a variety of outlets.
HP provides a special opportunity to those who have been here a very long time to lord their knowledge over the newbies. I am not super bent out of shape, but I understand what started this thread and why it has so many responses. Sometimes the helping hand feels like it holds a sharp little knife in the other hand. Don't give with one hand and take away the other person's self respect with the other.
I don't see why being polite and being correct have to be mutually exclusive.
Most of the time they're not, on this forum. But if some people are abrupt when answering questions but their answers are at least correct and helpful, well, I can overlook the rudeness of the delivery. They're just words on a screen to me. A bad attitude only reflects poorly on them.
The hubbers I'm thinking of are always on the non-topical forums. I'd only go to the topical forums if I were looking for trouble, which I certainly never am.
I do agree with these thoughts! Spot on and well stated.
Exactly. Recently I asked a question which I'm sure has been asked before. The folks who replied were kind enough to both point me toward some links, some of which I'd read before and some of which I hadn't found. Moreover, it was a question to which the answer may have changed over time, and they were nice enough to give me their present opinions.
One of the challenges with searching the forums is that much information is out of date or incomplete. When I have a question I certainly search for older threads. As for the learning center, according to the threads on proper photo crediting, even that is potentially out of date.
When I teach, I tell my students that if they have a question, then speak up, because there's probably someone else who has the same question but is too shy (or in the case of the forums too afraid of being bullied) to ask.
Ah that is far to beautiful of an analogy then they deserve. I am doing my best to try and figure out HubPages and often feel like asking a question either gets no answer or an answer phrased in a manner which reminds me strongly of one of my more ghastly neurologist experiences. Also, I wonder when 'squids' will ever just be seen as Hubpage members?
Kalafina--are you a squid? To me, anyone writing at HubPages is a hubber. Do you feel that people look down on squids? I don't. I think it's cool that the site has so many new and talented writers!
Victoria Lynn - You actually made my day with your comment! I am a squid and I get very tired of constantly feeling like we are ruining Hubpages traffic or stats. I have met some awesome Hubbers on here and I just try to avoid having contact with those who still seem to be put off about our presence. Cut us some slack. Imagine if you came home one day to find out everything in your apartment had been sold and you could either move out or follow your things to the next place. It's quite the shock.
If you don't mind me asking...what does the little a mean on the left side of your picture? Also, your comment really did cheer up my day so thank you
Kalafina, the "a" stands for the apprenticeship program that HubPages had for a while. We would apply, and HP would choose hubbers for a six-month program where we would receive some basic training each month, and we'd have specific instructions and topics to write eight hubs about per month. It was pretty intense, but valuable in some ways. The program was discontinued for a while to be revamped. HP said they might bring it back, and maybe they will.
I agree. These rants I see about Squiddoo are getting on my nerves.
I had never considered "squids" to not be HubPage members.
As for the folks mentioned in the post, they do tend to invoke some feelings of ill nature when you cross their paths at times with their sarcasm!
I agree with this post entirely. I now do not consider myself a "Squid," or even an "ex-squid." I write for HubPages, which makes me a Hubber. I've changed everything on my personal sites, my FB pages, my FB groups, and the tag on my email which says "See my pages at http://nancyhardin.hubpages.com/" Squidoo is dead, long live HubPages!
Yes, I know who you are talking about. They've mostly left me alone. But, some of those people have been here a long time and they probably think they're being helpful, but coming across in a snarky way. I know a lot of people who do that.
Also, this is a problem with every forum on every site I've ever posted in.
Kalafina--Well, I'm glad I made your day! I would think that all the squids joining this site is only a positive thing. There are many other things that affect traffic. Please don't let people let you feel that your coming here is the problem. I think that many others, besides me, welcome the new writers! I can't even imagine being kicked out of my home. If HubPages went defunct after my three years here, I can't even imagine how that would feel, as HP has been a home to me with my writing. I'm glad you're here! Welcome! The more the merrier!
Cheers! If I were technologically advanced I would have a smiley to fit that!
I'm pretty challenged on the smileys, too. :-)
Hi Kalifina. If you reply to any particular post, and in the posting box, click on formatting under the box to the right. Scroll down till you see all the smileys and copy the code, such as : and ) for a or a : and a ( for a or whatever. Cheers!
I hope I am not one of the 3 women you are referring to. I've been posting a lot on the forums lately and I certainly don't think I know it all, but I do try to help if I know the answer to something. If I am one of them, people are reading me wrong.
I can say that you are not one that I refer to Barbara.
You're not one of the three for me either, Barbara .
Thank you. That makes me feel better. I could only name 2, so I was worried.
I can bet we have the same people in mind, especially the one who does it not on most, but every single post in reply to a question
I mentioned this subject in one of my hubs and several hubbers replied this is just rumors
It isn't a rumor chateaudumer. There are 2 frequent flyers who do this that comes to mind without even having to think about it.
Such people are found just about everywhere, Dale. I am relatively new here, and I frequent very few social networks, but they do exist wherever there is humanity. The best thing for our own sanity is to ignore what seems pointless and attention-seeking. There will always be those who know more than us and those who know less, and those who truly know more definitely know that they know very little.
I agree with you workwithlove and I want to add the fact that we should not give up on our forum. Don't let it be taken over by exiting and making a new group somewhere else. I have seen that happen and that is not good for new members or the few that can't be reached and need better interaction on the forum.
Yes, there are countless times that I have received comments in the forums that I found irritating, annoying or inappropriate. That is not, nor should it be a bannable offence, however. People being arrogant or condescending is something that happens on just about every internet forum.
For sure, if someone makes personal insults or threats against a forum poster, or is breaking or the rules in other ways, that needs to be reported and dealt with. But otherwise, HP should not get involved, in my humble opinion.
What if a group of one or two or three or more are making remarks that appear to target one person? True, people sometimes say things that aren't very nice. God's know I've made a few myself over the years. But I don't think that is what the majority of people are talking about here.
I am thinking of a small group (person 1, 2, 3) that comes in and one makes a remark cutting down a person, sometimes it's the OP, sometimes it's Person Y who just happened to add a comment or ask a clarifying question.
If the OP or Y tries to defend or clarify, person 1 will make another cutting remark or 2 and 3 will chime in about how 1 is right, usually with a few gratuitous +1+1 thrown in for good measure. Attempts to get the behaviour to stop bring in the derailers and detractors telling OP or Y to grow a thicker skin and "well I didn't get offended so why should you?"
If this just happened once or twice even then I would be thinking, don't make such a fuss. BUT I don't see it happening now and again. I see it happening time after time after time, directed at 1 or 2 individuals. Persons 1, 2 , 3 are following OP and Y into other forum topics to follow the same pattern.
So yes, if it's just a rare whoops I said something offensive, terribly sorry, or even yeah I don't like you so I'm not going to read or respond to any of your comments, by all means that should not be forbidden or banned.
Continual low-level harassment and abusive behaviours however need to be well documented, and reported, and the instigators 1, 2, 3 held accountable.
Sorry to say it, but that all sounds very playground-like to me.
Yes. And this is actually what I see happening.
A few individuals are actively stalking and harassing others.
I've no clue why, but I've seen it to be a fact, and have watched as it was done to myself and others.
I don't find this acceptable in any way.
Exactly. We have moderators already and if this behaviour is a problem right now, then all you need to do is document and report it.
Even if we had volunteer moderators, they'd have to be following every single thread and every single forum to spot behaviour like that. Several moderators on shifts, for instance, wouldn't see the emerging pattern. So I don't think more moderators is the answer - I think the answer is for people to understand we DO have moderators and to complain when they're being treated badly. IF they complain properly (and by that I mean, don't just report one post but gather several examples and put them in an email), and get no action, then they can post on the forums, as Dale has done, and ask for the support of other Hubbers to also provide evidence. It sounds like so many people are observing this behaviour, it should be easy for several people to email the team and present the evidence.
I don't agree with either of you (Marisa ) , and especially with Colorful one who knows very well how it works when several people from different time zones are moderators.
Volunteer moderators can be picked from the community, however it was proven on Squidoo that voting for the most popular wasn't necessarily a good thing.
Marisa....I know this works, and I am sure the community has people that would volunteer and it only takes HQ giving them access to delete posts.
It sounds to me like Paul Deeds (or whoever said they didn't believe in removing comments 6 years ago) might want to revisit that thought. These sites grow and with that rules have to change.
**I want to add that some people "report" out of vindictiveness, or get their friends to report when there really isn't anything to report.
Kathy, can you explain a bit more please? The big complaint on this thread seems to be about people ganging up on one individual and stalking them to make snarky posts which are not overtly nasty or rude, so individually those posts aren't actionable. I'm wondering how a volunteer moderator could become aware of that pattern, unless they were monitoring every post - and then if they're handing over to someone else on a different shift, the continuity would be broken.
The thing with reporting is that it's the moderator's job to look at the complaint and decide whether it's justified: just because someone has reported something doesn't mean it will be acted on, so vindictive reporting doesn't work.
I agree with your assessment of the probable outcome of multiple moderators detecting a pattern in the short term. However, if people really are stalking and harassing others they might end up on a watch list.
I must say I have not been stalked to my knowledge, and have not been able to detect a stalking of others. All I have seen was arrogant comments and snarky comments that seemed in isolation, so they annoyed me, but never upset me enough to track the evil doers activities.
Actually, the VM would know, because if this is done right they would have communication with each other. So, like many jobs in real life, they would need to be "team players, honest, show an ability to be level headed, and having them in different time zones really works well."
We saw our forums benefit from moderation...and they often came in and tried to calm the group without closing a thread, but they did do that when necessary.
Oh, vindictive behavior always finds a way to worm into things! Now, as to the VM's job of only looking at complaints, is that really moderating the forum? A group of VM's could divide the days/times they check out new posts/threads and make sure everything is within the TOS of the forums including not allowing certain behaviors. I am sure there are several here, including the ones that used to moderate our old forum that could help direct this into something that would work.
Sounds like a great plan that was effective that you are referencing. I think it would be doable here as well if it was deemed important enough.
What I have not alluded to in this thread or any thread on HP is that I operate several forums and have a total of 25 moderators and also operate two chats with mods in place. I know the laws inside and out as I have been at this for almost ten years. That is simply to let folks know I do know how things can operate in forums and/or chats.
What you have mentioned is very similar to what we follow in our online endeavors dealing with the forums and chat and you are the first to bring this to light out of 25 pages of posts. Thank for sharing!
This is exactly the kind of detailed, constructive suggestion that people should be making in this new thread:
http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/126295? … ost2666577
It's a bit more than snarky posts Marisa
I was stalked. I knew I was being consistently harassed but wondered whether anybody else could see it.
I made my complaint about the behaviour directed towards me after I came across a discussion in another place which had been going on for several days (without my knowledge) in which a number of people who knew me commented on the behaviour being exhibited towards me.
That's when I made the decision to complain formally. If what was happening to me was that transparent to other people then I knew for certain that I wasn't being paranoid!
For the record I agree with you that
* it might well be difficult for Moderators to spot the behaviour - but only in the first instance
* AND more people need to put effort into citing ALL the relevant evidence (eg reference several posts by the permalink which is present in every post - see bottom line) and reporting this in the normal way.
I don't think it needs to be just the person who is being harassed who needs to report inappropriate behaviour which is inconsistent with the objectives of these forums. There's nothing to stop other people making reports as well.
If we all want to enjoy the forums then surely we all have an obligation to help out the people who have the job of managing the conduct?
I also think that where you find there are certain individuals who are being reported again and again by a cross section of individuals that's certainly justification for putting such individuals on a "watch list", advising/warning them as to what is happening and periodically checking the content of their posts. That's often all it takes to put an end to some of the behaviour which has been complained about in this discussion.
In all honesty, considering that the forums have to incorporate people with wildly different personalities, technical abilities, world views, social skills, political, religious, and life experiences, I actually think that HP do a great job overall.
I actually trust HP to do a reasonable job on this, and would be against "volunteers" being drafted in.
My years here at HP have led me to a number of general conclusions regarding the forums:
1. There will always be disagreement between people about what is acceptable and what isn't.
2. Different people will interpret a conflict completely differently. Sometimes one group will see X as the aggressor and Y as the victim, and another will see it the other way around. I am not saying that you can't and shouldn't moderate, just pointing out that it isn't always clean cut.
3. The forums are currently actually less raucous and pugnacious than they were in previous years. (If you weren't there, you should've seen how angry and unreasonable some people in the period after the first Panda hit a few years back!)
4. There is always a lot of squabbling and anger around after a drop in traffic. I am not saying it's relevant in this case, but it is something that I have noticed. Some people need a target when they are upset about something.
5. Strongly disagreeing with the content of what someone says is not generally bullying. Personal attacks are the things that need to be addressed. There is a big difference between pointing out why an idea is foolish and labeling a person as a fool.
6. Some people look for fights. I personally avoid the religion and politics forums for that reason. You don't have to fight with someone just because they disagree with you. You can walk away from the fray. Sometimes that is actually the best course of action.
100% agree with all of that.
There are also issues to be expected when two sites merge.
It reminds me of something I learned about group dynamics way back when I used to deliver training. Tuckman's model of forming, storming, norming, performing.
When the Squidoo crew came over we had a period of forming. Now we're in the storming phase.
http://www.businessballs.com/tuckmanfor … orming.htm
How about if the volunteers end up being exactly the people you take issue with. The lunatics running the asylum.
LMAO...yep, and that is exactly what happened when the other platform allowed us to vote for the moderators. One had a huge ego and wanted to censor all sorts of things (voted in because of popularity). A couple quit right away, and what was left...I think 6, or so, kept the forums running pretty well. Of course not everyone liked them, especially the friends of the one moderator that was trying to run their own show, and eventually left the position.
Good point Dale. I lost my appetite arguing here on forums. I only like to argue only in real life. This was my last comment on a forum. Promise
I have found exactly the same thing and it is more than just 3 female members unfortunately!
Those types of people are everywhere, online and irl. They act like you're the biggest idiot in the world for asking a simple question. It's their own way of stroking their ego for knowing a simple thing you don't know, when you probably have a library of information they don't understand. Best to ignore those types, or to give credit to those providing non-sarcastic answers. Give credit to someone else or ignore them, and watch them foam at the mouth ^_^.
As of now, I could only think of one person like that. I just try to ignore it though. Hehe.
Spot on Zeron...takes a few minutes to help someone and a few seconds to insult them...sad really
Hmmm... I can only think of one person that really chaps my a$$. Maybe that means I am part of the problem...
I couldn't imagine you being one of them, Solaras. I can think of three, but I'm not sure if one of them is a man or a woman--that one annoys me because a lot of the information 'it' gives is incorrect and/or misleading. The two I know to be women have been here many years.
All three are mean-spirited bullies. I wrote to the team this week about a bullying incident, but they'll do nothing about it. I've suggested these three have privileges above other users.
Ahhh I got it now. Maybe I am not on enough of the forums to see the latest incident. There is just one that has been particularly vile to me, snickering at me while completely mistaking what I had written. And no, while it was completely incomprehensible to me, since she was inferring and referring to something I had never intended, she is a gifted enough writer to impart tone in a sentence or two.
Edit - funny that happened on another thread specifically about Bullying.
And that's one reason we can be sure the tone is intentional.
LOL - I am remembering more of that exchange. In fact part of the quote was something along the lines of "and certainly there is no real sarcasm on the internet or the real world." That was intended to be sarcastic, no doubt about it. And no one was seeking technical advice, we were just venting about internet bullies and getting pushed around in the forums. It's deja vu all over again...
I wish I knew the thread you're talking about. Of course, linking to it would be much too obvious, but she sounds like one of those I'm thinking of.
Another thing I find is that these people make me feel aggressive, until I feel practically as bad as them.
Haha - you jumped in on that thread with much the same comment as you have here. I appreciated it! I can't remember the title of the forum now.
By the way, a very good-natured and genuinely helpful hubber was stabbed in the back by one of these women a few weeks ago and hasn't been on the forums since. Very sad.
You do realize that there are some here that do have these privileges right? I know of one who the HubPage gods to be or goddesses to be think the world of. One who has visited HP headquarters....dined and wined with the upper echelons that fits into the category I describe here.
(Looks for a ban coming my way.)
Yes, I know the one you mean. If I'd done the sort of nasty thing she recently did to a fellow hubber on the forums, I wouldn't be surprised if my account were deleted. I'm glad that that one's not on the forums as much as the other two with her snide comments.
What I really loathe is when I go over to the HubPages forums in the evening only to see one or both of the other two nasty, devious beings' names listed beside thread after thread after thread. I see a lot of benefits in the non-topical forums, but these users spoil the experience.
I don't think it has to do with cliques. It is just individual people choosing how they behave--not in a coordinated group sort of way
Actually - I think they are in competition with each other lol
The world has more than a few too many "Lucy Van Pelts' in it. When people who think like Lucy does just feel free to come across like Lucy does it comes across as abrasive. When People who hide their Lucy-ness under a nicer seeming veneer then it comes across as condescending.
Sometimes I think, though, that all the non-Lucy Van Pelts of the world are so sick of all those Lucy's, a lot of non-Lucy's can sometimes see a Lucy Van Pelt when the person really isn't one.
Of course, when a Lucy knows what she's talking about it's a matter of tone. When a Lucy doesn't know what she's talking about, that particular Lucy is the very blockhead that she needs/wants to think everyone else is.
With all the former Squids on HP I don't know who anyone here is referring to or thinking of. On a forum like this, I just think anyone who comes across to one or another person has a Lucy should be given the benefit of doubt and either ignored or else seen as "meaning well". In offline life it's different, but on a place like this a lot of people (Lucy's, Linus's, or who-ever else) just think it's efficient to say what they think is correct and not have to candy coat their idea of "straight, sound, and to the point". I really don't think too many people on a forum like this really intend to come across as a "Lucy Van Pelt". Offline, the "genuine" Lucy's can create some real problems (which may be why so many people come to forums like this with their Lucy radar picking up what may/may not really be a Lucy.
(Sure hope I came across more like a Linus, Charlie Brown, Sally, Snoopy or anyone other than a Lucy with my remarks here. )
Hi Lisa - I'll bite - who or what is "Lucy Van Pelt." I am willing to let my ignorance show.
BTW those being discussed here are long time hubbers - Squids have yet to achieve such notoriety.
Hi, Solaris. It's not ignorance at all. I'm guessing you just haven't spent much time watching the Peanuts (Charlie Brown - by Charles Schulz) cartoon specials (or reading the Peanuts Comic Strips). Lucy Van Pelt is the bossy and unpleasant/unlikable sister of the little-boy character, Linus. She's also known for being the one who would do something to make sure Charlie Brown's attempts to kick the football fail and frequently calling Charlie Brown, "You Blockhead". She's also the one known for hanging a sign out to advertise her own giving "psychology" advice to everyone else for five cents.
(Since you weren't familiar with her, I suppose that's a lot more info about her than you really wanted/needed. Anyway, she pretty much represents the bossy "kid" in a group who runs from being civil to being horrendously rude and obnoxious; and in all my almost-seven years on HP, I can't really say I've seen a whole lot of "intentional-Lucy's" on here (at least, I don't think I have. ). Then again, I tend to be more of a Linus (I think) - willing to ignore the Lucy's of the world and, yes, occasionally being willing to do the equivalent of sitting out on the occasional dark Halloween, waiting for the Great Pumpkin that never shows up "Better, a Linus than a Lucy," I always say. "Better an anyone, than a Lucy," for that matter, as far as I'm concerned. But, again, I really think that on these forums (or anywhere where words are typed, rather than spoken), most often coming across like a Lucy is really that problem of typing's not having the benefit of tone.
Victoria Lynn, I think the capital 'p' requires the thumbs stuck in the ears and the fingers waggling. The little 'p' works well without the thumbs and fingers :p. How do you do the thumbs and fingers?
In all seriousness, Dale Hyde, as I read your initial post to this thread, I had to agree that there have been community members whose delivery style in text is more than a little off putting. I'm sure I may have offended a few here or there without intending to, but I like to think it's not the earmark of all of my interactions.
However, the point is well taken that in the case of a few, a small handful, interaction with them in the forums and other places on HP seems to require field armor in order to ward off the barbs in their commentary. For some this may be a common means of communication within the social circles which they travel. I can think of more than a few states in the US for whom terseness and "rudeness" is a common complaint from outsiders but it's not a problem to the natives of that locale.
In my personal and professional interactions I find that those with whom conversation is notably uncomfortable, a wide berth is the most appropriate tack to take. I've always found it appropriate to tell customers on the phone who are intent on kicking the cat or dog, that I'm happy to help them but they will have to change their attitude. Some people won't give a rats patoutie if people avoid their attempts at conversation, others will do the math and tailor their interactions to a less painful reception on the part of other members, especially if it isn't their intent to offend.
Thank you for bringing up the subject and mustering the degree of tack and diplomacy you have. It's the problem we want to address, after all, and not attack the individuals. In the case of the latter one descends to the same level as the one being attacked.
As a native NYer, I know we have a bad reputation for being rude or terse. Rudeness is not considered acceptable behavior in NY either. However we struggle with our innate challenges with inefficiency, amongst other things. In NY there are so many people standing in line for any resource that anyone who isn't quick and decisive holds up everyone else. So that may at least in part contribute to our rep. Moving down to the South has been a shocker. The slow as molasses pace still threatens to drive me buggy, even after 20 years. (My biggest buttons are customer service/tech support people who don't listen to the problem and store clerks who don't seem to care about their jobs. I work hard at not screaming at them. I'm usually successful, but it does lead to my banging my head against the wall.)
In light of that, perhaps the folks spoken of, are dealing with buttons of their own. They may have seen the same questions again and again and are tired of answering them.
It might be helpful if the learning center were updated to take into account the questions that are most frequently asked. Though I do agree with the person who said it's already unwieldy.
"They may have seen the same questions again and again and are tired of answering them."
If one is getting tired of answering the same question over and over, then click the back button and don't answer at all. No one is obliged to answer a question in these forums. It's their own choice if they do, but that doesn't give them the right to be rude in any way to anyone.
As for your moving South shock: I worked for the Dutch RRS in my working life and at one time on a Friday afternoon I got a call from someone who wanted to speak to a colleague who wasn't there anymore and this man was furiously angry about something. I told him my colleague would be back on Monday and this man started cursing and said "you say - curse - I have to wait till Monday? Then I said "maybe that would not be a bad thing at all sir, because you're yelling at the wrong person now". It was quiet for a moment and then the man laughed and said "Darn lassie, I'm sorry, you're right, have a nice weekend".
We so often make the mistake (I too I must confess) to yell at the first person we get on the phone or the one behind the counter, but those are the innocent ones, they didn't cause the thing we're mad about.
I never knew Lucy's last name until this hub. One learns something new every day.
...and such a critical piece of information Lucy and Linus' last name is. (I can't say I know what Pig Pen's last name is, though. Guess it doesn't matter for this thread. ). (Of course, I'm not too thrilled with the frequently rude attitude of Bert (of "Bert and Ernie") either (unless Bert's mellowed since my Sesame Street-watching days).
Oh well... benefit of doubt or not, I do know that every so often some uncalled-for stuff can show up on things like these forums. I'm not saying it's always "innocent".
Hey, is this a new clique? The people-who-hate-condescending-responses clique? Can I join? I don't have any real life friends.
I can't join, because I may be the only one who has not seen the condescending and disrespectful responses.
I have a very strong desire to make a condescending and rude remark to you, but I don't want to be banned. If you wouldn't mind, imagine that I just dissed you really bad.
I'm so-sorry, SM. I guess I just have a hard time taking things personally. I don't necessarily expect respect from anyone. I don't usually get sarcasm, because I don't deal in it. So perhaps I am just insensitive and less perceptive than most people. If people really are trying to be rude or hurtful, I usually think it is their problem, not mine.
That is so healthy. I wish I could be like that. Where you don't recognize insult, I dwell on it until I find it. lol... I think I am too analytical.... which is another word for stupid. If you had to choose between the two, would you consider yourself happy or content? I know they should be the same, but I am wondering your take on it.
I couldn't real all the responses.
Dale, these are the people who demotivate me. It's the people in the forums why I have thought on several occasions to leave this place.
Life's too hard... this should be a fun place! It's our little haven. lol
I am throwing flowers and rainbows at each of you... it's kind of New Agey, but sparkly sunshine hugs for all of you!
You are a ray of sunshine Sed-Me. Thank you for the flowers and rainbow. I have had the sarcastic and rude remarks especially from one particular hubber who had it in for me from day one.
Well I could never be accused of not being sarcastic, but most ppl don't recognize it anyway so instead I just end up looking like a mental patient... which isn't far from the truth.
Just gotta keep on keeping on. (Oh my gosh, Im spouting posters from the 70s... someone help me. Rainbows and now this. Soon I'll be posting cat pics.)
lol, your kind of sarcasm is usually bordering on humor nut rudeness, that's the difference. Cat pics please!
I didn't say that. (Funny=peculiar or Funny=Ha-ha?)
I have always thought you had a really dry sense of humor.
I know, wet senses of humor are so messy.
As far as this thread goes, I think it is unnecessary and unfair to be talking about unnamed persons and unquoted instances of rudeness, etc. That's just my one cent opinion, not worth much. Let's get on with life.
Ummm...I guess you missed the public mocking of one hubber's pageviews and income by another hubber who possesses a unique insight into his HP account.
When you say mean things, a butterfly loses its wings.
You know, Sed-me, you may be on to a way to solve some of the problem. Perhaps if we find someone being rude, we should all join in by tossing rainbows and butterflies around the thread. If nothing else, it might cause the bullies to leave in disgust.
All of the best that I missed it-- sounds like something that should be ignored and not a cause for taking offense, but, then, I wasn't there. Let it lie.
Normally I would agree and say it's over. But in that case I actually thought it was good it was discussed because it brought up an important point about HubPages and personal information. I never heard of the referral program until then and I have to say, if it means someone has access to my personal information on stats then count me out of it. It's one thing to be mean-spirited it's a whole other to do it using a person's private information and share it with any one.
I certainly disagree with you. As folks have said, this is an open forum. People can read and post. My contention is if someone thinks this is an unnecessary thread/post, then pop right on out and read something that fits your particular mood for the moment!
Of course your comment and your stance is pretty interesting considering some of the threads I have followed in the past, lol!
I back you up with those thoughts, Dale. Also, there is no call for anyone to say a thread is not necessary or uncalled for. This thread has been necessary for us to express our thoughts about a few people who have caused unrest and bad feelings and it (your thread) has every right to be here.
By not calling out the names we are not lowering ourselves to the level of those who criticize and openly ridicule others by calling out their names.
Oh, noes. Not the infernal cat pics!
I like sparkly vampires. Can I get a hug from a sparkly vampire?
Cardisa, Now you have me curious who it is. I thought everybody loved you.
Well that would not generate any sunshine or rainbows whatsoever.
I know she wouldn't tell, but it still makes me curious. Everybody does love her as far as I know.
What a delightful way to send out good feelings. Flowers, sunshine and butterflies to you, too, and hugs.
This is a good story to reflect on when sharing the misdeeds of others: https://wisdomshare.com/dirty-laundry.
Reminds one of the snooty cliques in high school. They are the queens, kings, and LEGENDS........in THEIR minds while they disdain the rest of us as peons......WELL NOT! There are sadly THOSE who NEVER progressed beyond the high school level. SAD REALLY!
It is early morning here and it is sad, in a way, to say I have enjoyed reading all the additional comments over coffee.
I have enjoyed the intelligent responses and those that have taken the time to let me know that I was not alone in what I was encountering in the forums.
What is sad is that our interaction has to be over something like this versus something more joyful.
I do want to say thanks to everyone who has contributed and in advance to anyone else who contributes to this thread as I know I will enjoy reading your contributions. I am sure that those following this thread will enjoy any future contributions as well.
Dale, I've been reading along and am glad you did start this thread so members can air things out in the open just like friends and family need to do from time to time. Its healthy.
Dale, thank you for giving us the opportunity to express some long overdue thoughts, I appreciate it. We are a community and have every right to try and make it more pleasant.
It is not possible to avoid disagreements and banter - however, it is possible to disagree in mature and sensible ways without, as GM said, undermining a person's self worth.
You have handled this thread in a mature and amicable way and I admire you for doing this. Thank you.
I agree with you here for the most part, but since this is an open forum and members have the right to participate (within reason), it wouldn't be in keeping with the concern under discussion to suggest that anyone cannot chime in and post their opinion even if it is counter to what the majority believes, feels or wants to express. The point of your initial post is to bring into the open that some members don't contribute their opinions in a professional and respectful way. Or so I assume. So long as someone who thinks the thread is unnecessary posts that opinion in a respectful and professionial way, I feel strongly they have the right to do so. After all, I don't think you mean that it's okay for only opinions in agreement with yours and others posted here to be added to the mix.
As I've posted previously, "I had to agree that there have been community members whose delivery style in text is more than a little off putting." Their posts are off-putting because of the apparent disrespect to other members, not because their comments, if delivered in a respectful, courteous and professional way, would not be welcome though they may not be correct. The open forum idea goes two ways.
Please don't take this as a personal attack. I've also expressed enjoyment with the fact that you have broached the subject with tact and courtesy. I suspect that the way your statement above comes across may not be your intent.
Arachnea, one of the things I adore about you is what an evolved soul you are. I have admired your kindness, generous spirit and eloquence for quite some time. I think I'm going to make WWAD (What would Arachnea do?) one of my new mantras. (Not joking.) Thank you so much for the contributions you have made to Squidoo, to HP and to me as a growing human.
Thank you, Lionrhod. When I give my hand to something I attempt to do so 100%. It warms my heart that I was able to contribute positively to help someone out. Paying it forward, I suppose. BTW, I can think of one group that might take exception to your new WWAD. Ha! A very nice thing to say, however.
As I strive to recognize and comprehend the undercurrents to this thread, I have been googling similar topics. I found this one which seems to be quite well written:
http://www.t-empowerment-coaching.com/e … andbox.asp
I had started some research a number of months ago and hadn't gotten back to it. It was on the topic of bullying. In one obscure mention in one of the books I was reading, they mention the office gossip which results in discrediting a person, usually a member of leadership, to the point of being ineffective in their role. They are subtle in how they go about it and usually quite well liked, but bullies all the same.
I have not used it but there is one called Whyrll but it is used to promote products
I like this explanation. This is the first I've seen of someone taking the time to think through a cultural norm and explain it in a logical fashion. Yes, having a ton of things to get done and one idiot holding up the line thus preventing my getting on with things makes for a rant worthy of a lava explosion. I've been guilty of the tech service thing more than once, to my shame. I seem to get to the end of the diatribe with a solution long before the person telling me their tale and become impatient. I could stand to learn from a couple of my friends who have mach speeds going on upstairs to my turtle crawl down the cerebral highway. But, they never let me know that I'm holding them up.
A person really on the ball puts a safety guard over them dang buttons. Of course, I don't have any buttons. *thumbs in ears and fingers waggling* [yup my own brand of sarcasm]
Yes, searching the learning center can be a challenge. I appreciate when someone provides a link. I appreciate more when after viewing the link someone helps me out with more information once I make it clear that I still have questions after reading the link.
I've heard so many stories about how nasty the forums are that I don't even want to go and check them out. I did participate in a few discussions during the Squidoo to HubPages transfer process, and there were a number of really helpful, supportive Hubbers there. I also saw a few rude comments. The rude posts truly give a bad reputation to the rest of the community, which is a real shame.
On the other hand, Dale, just look at how many people have chimed in here - if the ones you are referring to did not exist, this would not be such an interesting thread!
One thing I've noticed reading through this thread is that the bullies make the non-topical forums unusable for many users, which is a very serious matter in my opinion that needs to be addressed by staff. The forums should be usable for all users, and not just those who are prepared to enter wearing battle armor.
I have in mind 3 people, male and female or possibly both, who I see doing this a lot. Sadly, this small group appears to be quite effective in driving people away from the forums.
It seems no matter what anyone says, they're an expert. And pointing out the factual errors in their statement only causes them to become nastier and more insulting. Yes, I have reported some of their posts, and I know I am not the only one.
Temporary banning from the forums however gets them giggling to each other in hastily erected hubs in the public comment sections over what a joke it all is because they'll be back soon enough.
I do find it quite telling that the 3 I am thinking of generally can't wait to inject their opinions into every forum topic that comes up, but not a one seems to have made a comment here.
To be fair...IF one of this triumvirate is who I think is being referred to, then she is at times very helpful and even kind once in a while. Not always but certainly on occasion. Negative...a bit, but I'm not perfect either.
Others who I think this may refer to however...not a single helpful word.
None of us are perfect. I, unfortunately, always put my battle armor on before entering the forums, although I feel able to leave it off for this thread (so far).
Yes, one of those I mean can be helpful at times, but I've found she usually turns on you just when you thought she might actually have a kind streak, so I'd never, ever trust her. The other is not helpful at all, just snide and full of self-praise. And the other comes across like an over-enthusiastic 15-year-old with an agenda. There are a couple of others I can think of who I find quite offensive, but they don't go on the forums too often, thank goodness.
Wow, I had no idea there were so many. I hope I haven't been offensive to people at all. Oh boy, I hope this whole thread isn't about me!
No Caridsa - I can't imagine it's about you. Paranoia may be one of the by products of a mysterious thread like this lol.
No, you're certainly not one of the three I'm thinking of.
It is certainly not about you, Cardisa. You are one of the kind helpful ones.
Good grief!!! If I have ever offended anyone, forgive me. I try to be amicable and helpful.
Can't forgive you Phyllis, sorry! Reason? Well, you are not one who has been offensive.
Awww! Thank you, Dale. I am beginning to get the giggles, for a lot of us are wondering about our own activity on forums. See? This thread is making us remember how important it is to conduct ourselves properly and utilize people skills.
I'm finding this giggle-worthy too, because a) I'm imagining any number of math-inclined folks attempting to "math out" who and/or how many people are among the guilty or maybe-not-really-guilty parties; as well as whether x number of other people all have the same x number of guilty parties in mind.
And b), though, (and I don't know who else but suspect many) would recall these forums a few years ago, when there would be whole "exciting", mystery, threads that were aimed at "outing" one sock-puppet or another.
(Nothing like a little idle entertainment on a late Friday afternoon. Oh, and if a "legitimate discussion" is involved too, all the better (although "all the not-quite-as-hilarious-as-the-old-sockpuppet-outings" too, I suppose. )
I thought the sock puppets were not so bad, except when they became condescending and rude and could no longer be converted back into proper socks.
Ooooh, outing sock puppets... that's my favorite game.
I think this thread is making a lot of us slightly paranoid.
If that makes us consider how we address others, that's not an entirely bad thing.
I don't think this is about either of us, or any of the others who were thus far concerned.
However, I CAN be a b***h on occasion. If anyone feels I am being so without cause then pm me or even call me out on the forums and I will attempt to learn and grow from the experience.
Wow, a lot said after my early morning post to the thread. I am just in from work drinking of of those sparkling fruit waters (works well for us diabetics!) and catching up.
Again, it is good to know that none of us stand alone in our thoughts on this and I do appreciate everyone expressing their opinions on all levels. This has been a great and stress releasing forum post for me.
I will never name names as that simply is not professional. These folks know who they are and that is why, so far, as others have noted, they have not appeared in this thread as of yet.
For a solution to this problem, I am not sure just what can or will be done, but from the number of members here who are sharing in this post I feel someone's attention may be gotten at some point. If not and change is not made, at least, as some have stated, we have had the opportunity to vent and that is healthy without any doubt.
I've mentioned this thread to the team during an exchange on a related matter. The trouble is, the staff member I'm in contact with seems to miss the fact that we are not emotionless robots and keeps telling me to press the report button if I think a post is in violation of the rules. The point is, the offenders know how far they can go without being in violation of the rules, which is nevertheless far enough to be offensive.
Apart from that, two of the offenders would never get a ban, anyway. They can do as they please.
Possibly that very notable incident was recently resolved behind closed doors, since I haven't seen receiver posting in this thread, and I'd think that person would definitely have something to say about this subject.
Dale, I think the most important thing about this thread is that we now know it is not unique to any of us, we all see the same thing (well, most of us) - and that should give us all the ability and common sense to ignore the ones who cause problems. I no longer respond to them and that has relieved a lot of stress for me.
This thread has me thinking about someone who has not been on the forums in a long time, and I find myself oddly missing him - for those times when he was on his best behavior, sparring with Beth. Oh and hating on Bubblews lol.
What is Mr. Will Apse up to these days?
This thread sure deserves a medal. It shows that people can discuss problems in a mature way and agree to disagree without getting nasty or condescending (had to look up that word). Hats off.
Like someone said, in forums like this one you'll always find those who think they're better than others and think they have to show that through belittleling remarks. (Geez this Dutchie's learning a lot of new words here).
Anyway, this thread reminds me strongly of another forum I used to frequent when I was still a little squid before it was taken down without no reason.
I really pity those who think they have to be sarcastic, rude and condescending, belittleling (don't know if that's a proper word) in order to be noticed. They'll end up living a lonely life.
In the interest of being fair, I think I should say that these folks, whoever they may be, (and they may be 10 different people rolled into three personas) at least the 3 I think I have identified, are talented writers.
They often have good information, and have probably read some, if not all of this forum. Hopefully this discussion has put up a sort of mirror, as we can only truly know ourselves through someone else's eyes.
I hope that helps them to make slight adjustments to their approach, and to be cognizant of how others perceive their comments. Then we can all eat butterflies, and pull the wings off of cupcakes together.
I hope so, too. But two of those I'm thinking of have run into a lot of criticism in the past regarding their attitude, and seem to have got worse rather than better over the years. I think scoffing at and demeaning other users gives them a kick. One of them is very argumentative, while the other enjoys dropping snide comments directed at one or all users, then sitting back to watch the floor show.
Solares, it would be nice if this thread does help them to see some truths about themselves and change their approach to a more pleasant one.
When I first signed on to HP, someone made the comment that the forums get a little heated from time to time or something to that effect. I wish I could recall the exact wording. The statement gave me pause and left me thinking I might rue the day I moved to HP. I have since found that there is an open-spiritedness [my word you can't have it!] in general in this community. I remember commenting way back when that I was overwhelmed with the outpouring of welcome and offers of help here by many. Phyllis Doyle, you still stick out in my mind as one of those welcoming party members that stood out.
I was nonplussed by the doomsayers and didn't let it wreck my world. I guess one can choose to do so if desired. I say all that to say this. I suspect it may have crossed a few minds that I'm not willing to carry a banner for everything said here, but I appreciate the option everyone has to speak their mind (as I will do likewise) and also respect those thoughts that are differing from mine.
Believe me, Titia, I have at least one dictionary in in the pile of books on my bed, a few on the book shelves and one by the puter. I'm glad to see I'm in good company.
So, please, no one throw actual stones at me. I totally understand you pov Dale. No one wants to be belittled when they have made themselves vulnerable... but here's the thing.
This has got to be the absolute definition of first word problems, right? lol I mean, we are all sitting on our duffs, most likely in our reasonably comfy homes, or what have you... we are on an optional discussion forum... and we have filled 10 pages now with our sorrowful tale.
Again, I do understand, but ... and maybe it has to do with the fact that we're writers... we tend to drag a point on and on until no one even remembers what was on page one, without scrolling back. I think the point has been well established, it has gained much support and momentum until the "victims" have become the "bullies". You know what I mean? I mean you did say you were talking about a small group, and I'm sure I can smell the oil from the burning torches... maybe we could just... you know... talk about cats... or whatever ppl do on the internet when they're not squabbling. lol
So I am going to get the snot beat out of me for this, right? But maybe it had to be said. Hugs and kisses and rainbows for everyone still!!!
No stone throwing, lol. However, I do believe HP likes threads like this due to the fact that HP likes Adsense. There are two ads at the bottom of each page that I can see. 28 followers of this discussion and who knows how many others have read the 10 pages of shared thoughts and opinions. I do know that there are some good ad impressions going on and who knows, someone may click an ad and make HP some profit!
Anyway, there is a new thought... not cats or rainbows, which are both nice, but revenue for HP, and mind you, not shared revenue so they get the full whammy!
So is this thread about making money? Cause it seems some folks are singling out some other folks and kind of dragging them thru the mud. I mean we all might need a kick in the pants sometimes, but just one kick usually does the trick... this is like several kicks per kicker... ppl do get bruised.
No it is not about making money. I was making light of the situation and your desire to see something else discussed.
I value all of the insight and sharing that has gone on here. No "one" is named, so no one is being singled out. As the saying goes to those who it may focus on, "if the shoe fits, wear it."
Many people have spoken and each is an individual needing to express their thoughts. Limiting expression and sharing of opinions is not the way to go in my book. Being open and honest has always worked for me.
I don't feel there is any bruising going on either. However, those who this references certainly have not cared how many they have bruised over the two years going on three that I have been here.
Sorry, Beth, but I don't see how anyone on this thread is doing anything wrong. This is an issue that has been bothering a lot of people for a long time. Why should we continue to remain silent while these offensive hubbers continue to deter other users who have questions and concerns from using the forums? Are the forums a place for us to lord it over others? I'm absolutely sick of entering the forums with the expectation that certain hubbers will pounce on me. Of course, I could stay away, but why should I?
No, I understand. I am just saying... take your sentence... "Why should I continue to be silent?"
Well, you haven't. I think it's all been said, don't you? Should we reiterate it again on one more page by the same posters? Or how bout two more pages? Or maybe someone could just do a final sum up of all the feelings expressed?
lol... Don't be offended... I don't even belong on this thread. But when I see the torches and the rope, I have this weird need to encourage ppl to take down the gallows and go home, you know? lol
I think the point has been made, I'll leave y'all to it though. Have a good night.
I can see what you are saying Beth and the funny thing is that we might all be thinking of 3 different people!!! I'm on to happier things. Like you say butterflies and cupcakes to everybody.
These people have bruised enough people to make it justifiable. Besides, no names have been mentioned, so if the shoe fits ...
Edit: Haha--Dale beat me to it.
Wow, lol, same thoughts published with a second of each other!
Beth - Where is my old pal, Will Apse - there was a man who could stand his ground in an argument against the mob?
Did he get a proper job?
I loved that man. lol
I so enjoyed his sense of humor.
I don't know if he is on the forum under a new id, but I have just assumed from what he said, that he is focusing on writing and making money at that task. I just enjoyed his take on things. He could "take the piss out of ppl" as his kind would say... but I've never understood why that's a bad thing. Do we all really want to be full of "piss?"
I am one of his kind, although I live in the US, so I "take the piss" too.
Then I am very glad you have joined this thread... it is full of "piss"... so to speak, of course.
Ironically, though you, sed-me, were not someone I thought of as being in this group of forum bullies, it is persistent comments like this one "This topic is full of piss" which I would classify as being sublevel harassment of forum members.
I suppose it's all in the perspective. We all see things differently. You look at this thread and see one thing. I look at this thread and see another. I think that's what makes the world go around. If we all saw things one way only, I wonder if there would be any point in us communicating at all. What would be the point of talking if we already knew and agreed with what the other person thought? I can see and understand the issue you are describing. Hopefully, you can understand the points I have made, even if you do not agree. That is communication.
This discussion is NOT as you describe - it's full of people expressing an honest opinion about their negative experience of using the forum - as experienced at a personal level or as observed.
Plus it's about trying to identify ways to address the behaviour which is the 'matter' that rather a lot of people have indeed noticed.
Plus it includes a significant number of comments which IMO are less than supportive (some are definitely disrespectful) of those who have been trying to discuss a serious issue in a serious way.
Your comment is just the latest. Given your previous expressed views in this discussion, I read it as attacking many of those who have been participating and contributing and uses an abusive term to describe their discourse.
I'm pretty certain I know what a lot of people will think about your comment . I wonder if you do?
I agree with Nan - IMO it's borderline harassment of forum members. At the very least it's just plain rude.
When I first started blogging I looked around for a guideline for the comments I'd allow on my blog and criteria for deciding which would be deleted and not published. I found a doctrine called "The Living Room Doctrine" which is sadly no longer on line
However I quoted an extract in the Comments Policy on my blog and this is what it said
I consider my blog to be a virtual extension of my living space. As such, any comments that I would find threatening or offensive if said to me in person in my living room will be deleted. It’s fine to disagree with me (I allow that in my living room). Not fine is unbridled hostility, name calling, etc., either towards me or towards other commenters.
The Living Room Doctrine
It seems to me that something very similar to the Living Room Doctrine is needed for this Forum.
By all means disagree with a perspective - that is of course allowed - but please do so in a way which is civilised and not rude or abusive.
You may not know that phrase. It's a British expression and means something entirely different there than it does here. It was a play on words. I believe you may be a more serious person than I am. I believe we have both expressed that we act and react differently to the subject at hand.
Yes, I think you demonstrated how subjective interpretation is there, Sed-me. Unfortunately, I don't think makingamark had a clue what you were talking about!
Did you notice Makingamark's spelling or take a look at her profile? or maybe it's London, Ontario.
I'm British and am well aware of the phrase. I'm also well aware of the fact that some people take great exception to it being used in company. Let's face it - think about exactly what you are saying when you use the term - and that's exactly why some people object to its use.
I'd never ever use it except with people I knew very well and in a place distinctly different from this forum.
Perhaps it is a British term, or a German term for Lebensraum.
I do not know.
The Living Room Doctrine you say... Not my living room! That kind of talk would get me banned and my Adsense account revoked. lol
Which speaks volumes as to why, in the matter of different habits and preferences as to ways of discussing things, Forums must inevitably go with the level which is least offensive to the maximum number of people.
It's simply a matter of whether you want a Forum to be inclusive for all members or restricted to those who prefer to discuss matters in a particular way which limits the involvement of all members.
I'd far rather a Forum was inclusive and exercise the discipline to mind my language.
The thing is if you want a place to vent then it's so very easy these days to set up a private group somewhere online and vent away to your heart's content in the manner which you're happy with. Your Living Room - your rules. My Living Room - my rules.
The thing is this particular Forum is a "Living Room" which does NOT belong to any single member but should, in principle, be inclusive of ALL. How it does that is down to the management.
Well said. I'm cool with the Living Room Doctrine!
As a kid I hung out with a lot of bikers, and you've never seen things go cold so fast as when one of these dudes felt they were insulted.
High spirited debate? Sure. All night long.
Just no rudeness. Confront ideas not people. Try not to make people feel stupid. Be polite and treat folks the way you want to be treated.
Funny enough, I've seen "rude, crude" and sometimes downright nasty types be more intentionally civil than what I've seen on some forums including this one. And some of those folks were convicted murders and felons.
(Most bikers I know aren't rude, crude, nasty, disrespectful or murderers, but the few who are give a bad rep to the rest.)
I've often wondered if HubPages encourages this type of offensive hubber in order to keep the forums 'lively'. I think, however, it's totally unnecessary--if people want that kind of 'liveliness', they surely go to the religious and political forums.
I used to frequent an art forum where the rule was that people had to behave according to very strict rules within the media forums - but there was ONE general chat forum where they allowed people more freedom. It had sod all to do with art and I still don't understand why they allowed it as such forums totally undermine the SEO for a website.
Anyway it used to be the online version of bare knuckle boxing in there at times.
Which meant of course that the forum was avoided by 99.5% of the members of the website while 0.5% let rip. I sometimes watched the awful behaviour of some of the participants but that was the limit of my participation.
Like I said - that particular chatting forum made absolutely no sense to me in terms of the integrity of the website or the satisfaction of the vast majority of its members.
I've not followed it for some time, However I gather what was allowed in that particular sub-forum changed soon after a well known publishing company took over the site. It was certainly NOT prepared to have its reputation besmirched by some of the things said and done in that particular chat forum.
For me, a website should deliver what it says - and if it says that its forums should be an enjoyable experience for everybody then that's exactly what should happen.
Otherwise the website dents its own credibility - and collects a lot of negative PR in other places online - and ultimately reduces its own net worth - to everybody: owners, participants and visitors!
I can't think of two more cogent reason for ensuring forums are properly moderated by experienced Moderators.
Couldn't find a glittery vampire. I'm never on time for anything so forget the Time Lord thing.
Kindness can accomplish a lot more than sarcasm or bullying. From a man who knew how to say what was on his mind, here are some good thoughts to send:
"Kindness is the language which the deaf can hear and the blind can see." - Mark Twain
"Do the right thing. It will gratify some people and astonish the rest." - Mark Twain
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