jump to last post 1-26 of 26 discussions (172 posts)

An Increase to The Words Per Product Limit

  1. Marina Lazarevic profile image86
    Marina Lazarevicposted 22 months ago

    Hi Hubbers, I have an important policy announcement regarding product capsules and moderation. Beginning tomorrow (1/28/2015), all newly published and edited Hubs will be subject to an increased words per product limit. Instead of 50 words for every product, a Hub will be required to have 100 words for every product. There are many Hubs that comply with the old policy but will be in violation of the new. As soon as these Hubs are edited, they must be brought into compliance with new limit lest they may be moderated by the bot. In other words, if you have a Hub below the new limit and do not edit it, it will be safe from becoming moderated for violating this rule.  We decided to implement the change this way so that you could bring your Hubs into compliance with the new rule at your own pace.

    We sincerely hope that this change will be seen as another step in our goal to improve the overall quality of our site. Fundamentally, we want HubPages to be a place to create and discover in-depth articles. A low product to word ratio encourages the production of thin Hubs so this change was very much needed. Moreover, we know from our Net Promoter Score (NPS) data that readers prefer Hubs with fewer products. Over the long run, we expect readers to be more satisfied with the articles they find on HubPages as a result of this change.

    Please let us know if you have questions about this.

    1. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image94
      TIMETRAVELER2posted 22 months ago in reply to this

      This is great, but I don't think you have gone far enough.  Why not just limit ads to a maximum of two or three per hub?

      1. Marisa Wright profile image94
        Marisa Wrightposted 22 months ago in reply to this

        Because that would be silly and unnecessary and totally misunderstanding the correct use of affiliate ads.

        I would like to see the limit increased to 150 or even 200 words, but I would never advocate limiting it to a certain number of ads per Hub.

      2. Sue Adams profile image93
        Sue Adamsposted 22 months ago in reply to this

        It takes time, but thank you for listening. However, I agree with TT. This new rule, in theory, still justifies sales hubs listing any number of  ads.  We do not want to attract readers looking for the best lampshades or the best hemmorhoid supositories on the market. Reviews, yes. But only one product to be reviewed per hub. (Perhaps HP could even provide a template for review hubs like you've done for recipes at some future date).
        To recap: We do not want sales hubs at all. We want HubPages to be the best source for interesting, practical, and innovative knowledge on the web.

        So I would go  even further and simplify the rules for greater clarity:

        1. Have a 1200 compulsory minimum number of words per hub. Also change that number in the "need some goals" box from 1250 to 1200.

        2. Plus a rule of no more than three ads per hub.

        Nice and simple! No more ambiguity and confusion. No more bad vibes.

        With the above 2 rules in place, the fact that they bring the number of minimum required number of words per ad up to 400 need not even be mentioned.

        1. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image94
          TIMETRAVELER2posted 22 months ago in reply to this

          While I am all for placing ad limits, I know from my own experience that in some instances, depending on topic, it can be difficult to write 1200 word articles, even though those are considered to be the optimum.  I often write more than that, but sometimes must write less, and I think this is the case with many writers here.  Yes, we can "add words" to fill the gap, but they would add nothing to the quality of the hub...so, having said that, I think we should mandate a minimum of 700 with an optimum of 1200.  Google has stated that any hub with less than 1500 words portrays an author who does not know enough to produce a complete hub, but I think 1500 is a high reach for many, regardless of their expertise.  On the other hand, when I hear of people writing 7,000 word hubs, I think  "Why?".  The Internet is not the place for such lengthy articles.  Anyhow, that's my take, for what it's worth.

          1. TheDragonBringer profile image96
            TheDragonBringerposted 22 months ago in reply to this

            I personally require myself to at least hit 700 words. Often by the second or third time I go back to rewrite they reach 1200. Even at 700 that would mean 7 adds, which I think is pretty generous. I tend not to do an add for evey every 100 words. I think and ad per 150 words is perfect, 200 would be alright too, but a little high for some.

          2. Marisa Wright profile image94
            Marisa Wrightposted 22 months ago in reply to this

            You say "Google has stated that any hub with less than 1500 words portrays an author who does not know enough to produce a complete hub" - I've never seen such a statement, where does that come from?

            1. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image94
              TIMETRAVELER2posted 22 months ago in reply to this

              Google   I read it awhile back on the net...can't remember where, exactly, but I know for a fact that this was stated.  Probably Writer Fox can tell us...he keeps track of all this stuff.

              1. Marisa Wright profile image94
                Marisa Wrightposted 22 months ago in reply to this

                Sorry TT2, I don't believe it.   Google would never make a statement specifically about Hubs. 

                I remember Nelle Hoxie doing experiments with Hub length and finding that her Hubs performed best when they were between 800 and 1,500 words.   I also recall HubPages identifying 1,500 words as a "sweet spot", which is why they used to PAY UPFRONT for Hubs of exactly that length - but again, that was based on their analysis of traffic at the time.

                1. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image94
                  TIMETRAVELER2posted 22 months ago in reply to this

                  Searched but could not find it, but I did find this article which pretty much says the same thing:

                  https://blog.bufferapp.com/the-ideal-le … to-science

                  I do remember seeing it, and I do remember it coming from Google, but this was quite awhile back, and I did not save it.

                  Most experts agree that articles that are much shorter than this generally do not do as well, but what is important is quality.  If you write a long post that is garbage, length will not matter.

        2. OldRoses profile image84
          OldRosesposted 22 months ago in reply to this

          I don't think that any of my hubs have ever come close to 1200 words.  Even 700 words is a stretch for me.  I write very economically.  The only way that I could consistently meet those kinds of standards is with a lot of filler and repetition which would lead to much poorer quality hubs.  I refuse to lower the quality of my hubs to meet some arbitrary word count.

          1. Benny01 profile image44
            Benny01posted 22 months ago in reply to this

            When a hub is so long it become too tiring to read no matter how interesting the subject might be, I hope they put this into consideration, it happens to me, I keep skipping pages if its too long. I prefer making good points than stretching it in order to reach 1500 or 2000 words.

        3. Marina Lazarevic profile image86
          Marina Lazarevicposted 22 months ago in reply to this

          calculus-geometry said this in a post below and I'd like to reiterate: this policy change affects the published status of a Hub, i.e., new and edited Hubs with fewer than 100 words per product will be automatically unpublished (no human review.) It's important to set this limit at a reasonable place because the consequences are pretty severe. It's certainly possible for Hubs with more than 100 words per product to be excellent. The same is true for total number of products per Hub.

          In contrast to the above, the standards for a product Hub to be *Featured* are much higher (refer to the products section of the Spammy Elements FAQ). Some of these Hubs require human evaluation to determine whether they are spammy or not. Defeaturing spammy Hubs (product-oriented and otherwise) is an ongoing process; we've been working on it and will continue to do so.

          Thanks for the support, everyone! smile

    2. colorfulone profile image87
      colorfuloneposted 22 months ago in reply to this

      That is gracious of HubPages.

    3. NateB11 profile image93
      NateB11posted 22 months ago in reply to this

      Good idea. Keep out the thin content to ensure quality of the site.

    4. peachpurple profile image77
      peachpurpleposted 22 months ago in reply to this

      if i have 3 amazon capsules, does it means i must have 100 words for each capsules, excluding the hub contents?

      1. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image94
        TIMETRAVELER2posted 22 months ago in reply to this

        No.  It means you have to have at least 100 words per ad within your hub contents.

      2. Sue Adams profile image93
        Sue Adamsposted 22 months ago in reply to this

        Predictably, here comes confusion poking its head up again! The emphasis is all wrong. In order to make newcomers understand what HP is about, a rule on the number of words required per ad is not really helpful. If anything, such a rule encourages  people to write sales hubs.
        As far as serious authors are concerned,  I mean those who deserve the "HubPages Author" label under their name, pure sales hubs are out.
        But now Marina says:
        "It's certainly possible for Hubs with more than 100 words per product to be excellent. The same is true for total number of products per Hub."

        So that means you can have a 2000 word hub with 20 Amazon or eBay Capsules.

        Sorry, I do not wish to be a part of a website that endorses such a policy. Also,  in the same breath, HP recommends not writing hubs for the sole purpose of selling stuff! Make up your mind for crying out loud! Are you surprised people get confused?

        As Marcia mentioned earlier, our pages are already saturated with ads placed by HP. Hence, plenty of money can be made from the HP ad program without placing any Amazon or eBay capsules in a hub at all. If an ad enhance a hub, yes have it, but please let us have no more than 3 ads per hub maximum.

        With a minimum requirement of 1200 words and no more than 3 ads per hub, you kill 2 birds with one stone:
        1. Richer articles, and
        2. No more over-promotional content.
        Full stop. No more confusion. Forget about number of words per ad.

        I hear you, TT but I really feel that 700 words is rather mean to cover any topic to any decent depth.

        1. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image94
          TIMETRAVELER2posted 22 months ago in reply to this

          So, how about a compromise...say 950 or 1000 minimum?  I think many could handle that many.

        2. NateB11 profile image93
          NateB11posted 22 months ago in reply to this

          I agree about limiting the number of amazon and ebay ads, but I also disagree about word count. Sometimes less is more, depends. Also, I've had Hubs well under 1200 words that perform well. It's possible to be concise and sparing (economical) yet thorough and effective.

        3. Rymom28 profile image86
          Rymom28posted 22 months ago in reply to this

          I'd like some tips on how exactly you make plenty of money from the HP ad program? Just by making sure you have a lot of hubs?  For me, the goal is to at least make a little extra cash for clothes for my kids or to buy a couple books a month from my writing, which to some seems like nothing, but for me it has been surprisingly hard to attain here.  What is the key?  TIA

          1. Jodah profile image86
            Jodahposted 22 months ago in reply to this

            If you are looking to make tons of money you've come to the wrong place.

    5. peachpurple profile image77
      peachpurpleposted 22 months ago in reply to this

      the 100 words per capsule, when i wrote in the capsule, it doesn't appear, why?

      1. rebekahELLE profile image90
        rebekahELLEposted 22 months ago in reply to this

        Which capsule are you referring to? It doesn't mean you must add 100 words to an ad capsule.  It means that for every Amazon capsule used in a hub, there must be 100 words of text.

    6. Rymom28 profile image86
      Rymom28posted 22 months ago in reply to this

      I am still relatively new here, coming from Squidoo, and I guess I don't really understand what is wrong with selling a product through writing? I would really appreciate some tips on how people realistically make money here because it is a very different format than Squidoo with these guidelines. 

      Coming from my point of view, I am a busy stay at home mom and I try to keep my writing short and to the point.  While I understand with more writing comes better quality, it seems to me that the current consumer tends to read less. (Case in point: http://www.slate.com/articles/technolog … ticle.html  )

      Finally, does anyone know if there is a site where I can do more sales type writing?  I appreciate any all help.

      1. Marisa Wright profile image94
        Marisa Wrightposted 22 months ago in reply to this

        There is nothing wrong with selling a product through writing - it's just that people always take things to extremes.   HubPages is simply saying, "don't use Amazon capsules to excess", and there will always be people who think, "if ten Amazon capsules are bad, that means ALL Amazon capsules are bad!  Delete, delete, delete!"   

        It's a load of rubbish.   If eBay and Amazon capsules are used properly, they are perfectly fine.  HubPages has even given us recommended examples of Hubs with plenty of Amazon capsules (you'll find them on the blog).   

        As for length - you are right that consumers tend to want "short and sweet" these days, but in order for  a  consumer to see your Hub at all, you must first provide what Google wants!   Research by several Hubbers has proved that Hubs over 800 words tend to do better with Google, and HubPages has said that 1,500 words seems to be a "sweet spot".    Shorter Hubs may not get Google's attention and therefore won't get readers.

        As for the key to making money - first, as I just said, write longer Hubs.  Second, write about subjects people are looking for on Google - but before you write, be sure to check your competition, too.  There's no point writing about something that already has a gazillion articles published, unless you feel you can offer a new angle or write it better than what's already out there.  Third, be patient - it can take months for a Hub to gain traction.

        1. Rymom28 profile image86
          Rymom28posted 22 months ago in reply to this

          All good points Marisa, I appreciate you taking the time to reply.

      2. 0
        Donna Cookposted 21 months ago in reply to this

        As a Squid refugee, I am moving recipes and reviews to Seekyt. Hope this helps.

        1. Rymom28 profile image86
          Rymom28posted 21 months ago in reply to this

          Sent you a message on FB, as I would like some more info please.

  2. aesta1 profile image90
    aesta1posted 22 months ago

    Is this 100 words the product description or just the ration of the words in the hub to th encumber of products?

    1. Marina Lazarevic profile image86
      Marina Lazarevicposted 22 months ago in reply to this

      100 words refers to the words in the entire Hub, excluding things like photo captions. It does include the main text of the Hub as well as text in product descriptions.

      1. aesta1 profile image90
        aesta1posted 22 months ago in reply to this

        Thanks Marina.

      2. janshares profile image88
        jansharesposted 22 months ago in reply to this

        Recipe and poetry hubs as well? Most HP poets don't put ad capsules on their poetry hubs anyway but just wanted clarification.

        1. Marina Lazarevic profile image86
          Marina Lazarevicposted 22 months ago in reply to this

          Yep, the text in Recipe Capsules and poetry Hubs is counted. smile

          1. janshares profile image88
            jansharesposted 22 months ago in reply to this

            So it is likely for a bunch of recipe hubs and poetry hubs with say, 200 words and 4 ad capsules, to become unfeatured, right? Even if those ads are ingredients mentioned in the hub?

            1. Marina Lazarevic profile image86
              Marina Lazarevicposted 22 months ago in reply to this

              Because the word to product ratio is 50:1 for those Hubs, they would become unpublished if they are edited.

              Edit: I should add that, if they are left alone, they may or  may not become unfeatured for other reasons.

              1. janshares profile image88
                jansharesposted 22 months ago in reply to this

                Thank you.

      3. Marcy Goodfleisch profile image93
        Marcy Goodfleischposted 22 months ago in reply to this

        Marina - (hope you read this - or someone on the staff reads it):

        A question about one phrase in your OP:  If hubs that aren't being edited are not subject to the 'bot' review, that seems to imply there will continue to be quite a few spammy hubs on the site? I know you said a hub could still be moderated or unpublished for 'other reasons,' and perhaps the 'bot' isn't installed in a way that allows it to review existing hubs.   

        How can we (writers) help get the 'existing' spammy hubs addressed?  Most spammers are unlikely to edit a hub if they realize the act of editing it will cause the bot to moderate it. For that matter, some spammers are hit & run artists - they create hubs filled with spam & don't mess with them afterward.

        If we run across them, should we report existing hubs that do not comply with the new guidelines?

        1. Marina Lazarevic profile image86
          Marina Lazarevicposted 22 months ago in reply to this

          Great question, Marcy. For now, the change will only apply to new and edited Hubs, but will likely be mandatory for all Hubs in the future. We'll give plenty of notice before we implement that.

          I actually advise against flagging Hubs that violate the new words per product rule, if that's the only reason you would be flagging them. This is because our moderation team doesn't have time to calculate words per product (one reason we automate this sort of thing). We really appreciate your willingness to help keep our site clean; just make sure that the product Hubs you flag are spammy for reasons other than having fewer than 100 words per product. For instance, if the Hubs contain excessive products (big blocks with no descriptions), unrelated products, and particularly if they lack original content.

  3. paradigmsearch profile image88
    paradigmsearchposted 22 months ago

    And no more than three products per hub would be nice.

    Update. TT2, you beat me to it. big_smile

  4. Lorelei Cohen profile image84
    Lorelei Cohenposted 22 months ago

    That is still a very generous ratio considering Google's new stricter standards. Thank you for the heads up.

    I do believe longer articles deserve to have a larger number of products within their fold and NOT be limited to a strict number ie:3. Having more products scattered throughout the text increases the chances of revenue coming in for the writer.

    1. Elsie Hagley profile image79
      Elsie Hagleyposted 22 months ago in reply to this

      Very generous. Thanks for the info.
      I really don't intend to make product hubs anymore.

  5. Thelma Alberts profile image80
    Thelma Albertsposted 22 months ago

    Thanks for the information. I have to remember that in case I will edit my hubs or publish a new one.

  6. KarenHC profile image85
    KarenHCposted 22 months ago

    Thanks, Marina.  This is a good step for Hubpages to take.   While I don't think it's necessary to limit a Hub to 2 or 3 products (for instance, I have a "10 best books" page), I am coming around to agree that a much larger ratio of text to products is better overall for the pages I write, no matter what the platform.

  7. calculus-geometry profile image85
    calculus-geometryposted 22 months ago

    It's 100 words to avoid moderation by bot, but it doesn't necessarily mean you will be featured if you write exactly 100 words per product.

    Probably what sales hub authors want to know is what density will them featured. Much more than 100 words per, I imagine.

  8. tlcs profile image81
    tlcsposted 22 months ago

    I agree with Sue Adams and Marina Lazarevic Hubpages to me are a place to create and discover in-depth articles not for selling lampshades as Sue Adams states!

  9. Marcy Goodfleisch profile image93
    Marcy Goodfleischposted 22 months ago

    I agree with Sue Adams, Marina & Tics - either this is a site and platform for informative articles, or it's a Spam Spot. 

    The increased word requirement helps - maybe those who have a ton of Amazon ads won't want to take the time to create real, genuine, actual, authentic informative hubs. But those who are willing to invest the time writing 100 words per capsule could still create very spammy hubs. 

    How many readers will be enticed to visit a site that has a 1,000-word article thinly disguised as 'informative,' but has 10 ads?  Not to mention the slew of ads that are already on the page due to the HP ad program.

  10. Marcy Goodfleisch profile image93
    Marcy Goodfleischposted 22 months ago

    There seems to be discussion here about how many ads someone can squeeze into hubs, and whether they'd be able to write the length they'd need in order to have a good (as in promising) number of ads.

    To me, this might indicate an interest on ad revenue rather than on writing good content. If someone's main concern is 'How many ads can I get put into this one?' - maybe the driving force is the ads and not content.

    If someone is by nature a writer (and their are many of us here, who signed on because we WRITE), the ads are secondary, and writing a hub of more than 700 words is not a problem.

    Many of us only ad Amazon capsules organically - if a topic lends itself to an Amazon capsule, fine. But we don't LIVE for Amazon capsules. Sure, they can be sources of revenue, but if that's what people are 'writing' for, they're not real writers.

    HubPages started out as an online platform for writers, not a host site for people to create spammy sales hubs and post ads.

    1. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image94
      TIMETRAVELER2posted 22 months ago in reply to this

      +1

    2. janshares profile image88
      jansharesposted 22 months ago in reply to this

      +2

    3. justholidays profile image80
      justholidaysposted 22 months ago in reply to this

      I'd really like to get real authors/writers take on this.

      What a delight reading an interview from some well known and highly popular authors like Stephen King, J.K. Rowling or even authors like Juliette Benzoni or Jean Breton saying they're going to give all the earned money back to their readers because as "real" writers, they aren't interested in earning money.

      Didn't they write GOOD content because they did it for the money? So as per your statement, anyone working on Earth doesn't do a good job because they do it for the sake of money... It's more or less what you stated.

      The more I read the forums here, the less I enjoy being a part of HubPages even though I joined 7 years ago and liked the site. And HubPages started with NO limits on anything, if you were here more than 3 years ago, you would know it.

      Yes, there are writers that write to make a living, should it please to you and your notion of what an author should be. And they deserve as much respect as others. And their place on here, unless HubPages decides on stopping their earning program. As as you can see, without the money brought by their multiple ugly ads placed all over our Hubs, they wouldn't exist!

      1. Marcy Goodfleisch profile image93
        Marcy Goodfleischposted 22 months ago in reply to this

        For the record, I am indeed a 'real writer,' justholidays - I supported myself and my family as a writer during my entire career, and I have been very successful at it.

        Those who create hubs for the sake of cramming tons of ads into them are corrupting the purpose of the site - this is opportunistic use of the site. It is also a disservice to those who are professional writers and who are on this site as a place to publish work that has content integrity. I've seen 'hubs' on this site with literally dozens of ad capsules, all thinly accompanied by minimal text that is liberally laced with promotional language. That's not a 'real writer.'

        When I wrote for newspapers and magazines (yes, as a 'real writer' - for actual money) the publications had ads and that paid my salary or my per-piece compensation. I had no problem with that, and I still don't have a problem with it, unless a publication or site begins looking spammy. I have no problem with the idea of placing Amazon ads in hubs when they clearly complement the content and the content is not driven by the goal to insert ad capsules.

        1. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image94
          TIMETRAVELER2posted 22 months ago in reply to this

          Thank you, Marcie.  I really appreciate your take on this and what you say supports my point.  It always amazes me in discussions like this to see that many who yell the loudest against something are often the very people who are the worst offenders.  I was shocked a few minutes ago (and posted so) that someone here has a sales ad that shows the same product twice for each capsule.  This is what I am talking about.  It's overkill, and it is  unnecessary,

  11. Sue Adams profile image93
    Sue Adamsposted 22 months ago

    @ just holidays
    Why are you twisting Marcy's words? Of course professional writers write to make a living. Everyone knows that. That is not the issue here.
    Would Dostoevsky or Jack London have applied their talent to writing sales blurb for bedlinnen or lampshades? No!

    1. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image94
      TIMETRAVELER2posted 22 months ago in reply to this

      +1

  12. Susana S profile image92
    Susana Sposted 22 months ago

    I understand people's concerns about thin product pages but certainly not all product pages on HP are thin - many are excellent and very helpful to the reader. This is what needs to be encouraged, not a ban on all product pages!

    Let's be realistic, without healthy amazon/ebay income I doubt that HP would be able to exist. I'm guessing that these affiliates account for at least 50% of total income for the site.

    Disrespecting those who write product pages is also not fair IMO. Good sales pages take a lot of skill.

    Some years ago I had a series of hubs on 3D TV and related products which took many, many of hours to research, write and keep up-to-date. I know without a doubt that they had value for those that found them through search. At the time there was nowhere else on the web to get the information in one place, explained without jargon. People used to email me and thank me for explaining the options and compatibility issues so clearly.

    I wrote those hubs for profit and I did make a lot of money from them, but that's not to say that I didn't care about the reader. I did.

    What hubbers need is educating! Product pages are not evil.

    We need to get to a point where every single page on the site meets the needs of the reader, regardless of whether it's an informational article or a product comparison or a how to or whatever. By doing that we will also meet Google's requirements.

    This is where HP is heading and I think they're doing a good job.

    1. EricDockett profile image95
      EricDockettposted 22 months ago in reply to this

      Well said, Susana.

    2. Millionaire Tips profile image89
      Millionaire Tipsposted 22 months ago in reply to this

      I agree.  Sales hubs can be written well and provide value to the reader. I have a couple that do okay.

      I also don't a point of having a larger word count per Amazon capsule. The point is to create a minimum to automatically avoid the really spammy hubs. We do need to use common sense to make sure that we are providing sufficient value to the reader to make it worth their time to come read our hubs, and make sure that the ad is directly relevant to the reader. That is not something that can be measured with a word count.

      One thing that people may be forgetting, is that you get revenue from anything the person buys once they go to Amazon, not just the thing you are trying to sell them. So you don't need to put all the possible choices on the hub. If they choose something else, you'll still get the revenue.

      1. Marcy Goodfleisch profile image93
        Marcy Goodfleischposted 22 months ago in reply to this

        MT - I agree with Susanna's post as well - I've written a few product reviews, and they focus on the details of the product and the pros and cons.  There might be a few ad capsules, but only if they are supported well by the purpose and content of the hub. There's nothing wrong with that type of product review - consumers turn to user reviews when they make purchasing choices. 

        Hubs written like sales catalogs, though, go beyond that type of legitimate product-review writing.

        1. Millionaire Tips profile image89
          Millionaire Tipsposted 22 months ago in reply to this

          I agree with that Marcy. To avoid these types of issues, though, it seems they would need a case by case basis review instead of a blanket rule that the system can handle.  Or at least, I can't think of a rule that would help weed them out.  Sure, you can look at the number of products and compare to the number of words, but that won't necessarily give you the bad ones, just ones that are possible candidates for review.

          1. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image94
            TIMETRAVELER2posted 22 months ago in reply to this

            This is why limiting the ads to a specific number is the best option.  Takes all the guesswork out of this issue.

    3. NateB11 profile image93
      NateB11posted 22 months ago in reply to this

      Glad you made this point. If an article is well-researched and detailed sufficiently and gives the reader what they need, that's what counts. Drastic measures taken on certain kinds of articles are liable to, excuse the cliche, cut off the nose to spite the face.

      1. Susana S profile image92
        Susana Sposted 22 months ago in reply to this

        Exactly. We don't want to go down the road of nose cutting!

        Also, (and this is quite controversial), I think that adding in a product or two on pages that have nothing to do with products is equally as damaging to the site as poor product hubs.

      2. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image94
        TIMETRAVELER2posted 22 months ago in reply to this

        How is limiting the number of ads per article "cutting of the nose to spite the face?".  Do we really need articles with 10 plus ads on them?

        Also, you are assuming that everybody here writes quality articles.  You surely know this is not so.  Every day I see substandard work that is poorly written and misuses ads and worry that these will lead to the downfall of HP.

        Furthermore, even many good writers here do not understand how to properly use ads...they just throw them on randomly and hope for sales.  This ruins the quality of their work and damages the site.

        Let's get real here.  We need specific, clear guidelines and ways of enforcing that they be followed.  Otherwise we end up with the types of issues we now have that have ruined other sites.

        Of course a good deal of income for the team comes from ads, but many of those ads are the ones Google places, and we get income from them, also.  The best article in the world can be considered spam by a reader if it houses too many ads.  What happens to the advertising income then?

        1. NateB11 profile image93
          NateB11posted 22 months ago in reply to this

          I agree, and I think most people commenting on this thread agree, that something should be done about improper and excessive use of ads. No doubt about it, it brings down the site and is no doubt the reason for the current rule changes. You're absolutely right, even good writers improperly place ads on their articles, I've seen it.

          I think Susanna is correct though that we could inaccurately target certain kinds of articles. If we restrict writers to the extent that they can't write certain kinds of articles because rules are unnecessarily constraining, that could actually create a significant loss of writers, content and income.

          1. NateB11 profile image93
            NateB11posted 22 months ago in reply to this

            Although, I should say, I'm not against limiting the number of ads at all.

          2. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image94
            TIMETRAVELER2posted 22 months ago in reply to this

            Tell me, please, what kind of article can anybody write that requires them to use more than three or four ads to make their points?  It is ridiculous to think that placing such a fair limit would hurt people's income.  In fact, it might even help.

            Even with the new rules, someone with a 1200 word article could place 12 ads...and a 1200 word article is not really that much when you think about it.

            If you put photos, videos, polls, google ads and then 12 more ads on an article, I would think things would get pretty crowded and would detract from the content of an article.

            The truth is that we shouldn't be writing sales articles here, because that is not the intent of this site.  However, since the team allows this, at the very least they should put realistic limits on the ads because if they don't, they are writing the epitaph for their own demise.

            1. NateB11 profile image93
              NateB11posted 22 months ago in reply to this

              I'm definitely not an apologist for sales articles, I'm about as far from a salesman as a person can get. So, I'm not going to spend a lot of time arguing for sales Hubs and product reviews; they definitely are not my thing. I'd much rather write informational articles, for certain. I was only saying Susanna made a good point.  In fact, I'm not sure she or I contradict anything you've said. I really wasn't thinking that much about limitation on Amazon ads either way when I replied to Susanna's comment. I was just agreeing that we shouldn't exclude certain kinds of writing or writers and, as she pointed out, should do something about spam articles and bringing up the quality of the site.

              To tell you the truth, the whole subject bores me to tears, I was just dropping in with a quick comment on Susanna's points.

            2. Susana S profile image92
              Susana Sposted 22 months ago in reply to this

              Search the web for the best led TV's or the cheapest car insurance or gifts ideas for grandmothers and you will find pages with lots and lots of affiliate links/product options ranked on page 1. Many more than 3 or 4 on a page.

              That is because searchers typing those kinds of queries expect and want plenty of buying options and google knows that.

              1. Marisa Wright profile image94
                Marisa Wrightposted 22 months ago in reply to this

                +1

              2. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image94
                TIMETRAVELER2posted 22 months ago in reply to this

                Yes, but those are not articles on a writing site...they are advertising only ...there is a difference.

                1. Marisa Wright profile image94
                  Marisa Wrightposted 22 months ago in reply to this

                  You have an idea in your mind of what you would like HubPages to be.   Take another look at those two Hubs I linked.  That's what HubPages wants HubPages to be.

                  http://comfortsofhome.hubpages.com/hub/ … by-nursery
                  http://editoranna.hubpages.com/hub/Best … naged-Girl

                  You have every right to use HubPages in a way that suits you, but your desire to limit advertising for others isn't what HubPages wants, because it's not necessary to please Google and it's not in the best interests of the site's revenue stream.

                  HubPages promotes itself in several ways to different markets.  Of course it wants to attract people who can write well, but that doesn't mean the site has to be "writerly".  It can be commercial as well.

                  1. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image94
                    TIMETRAVELER2posted 22 months ago in reply to this

                    All I know is that what attracted to me to this site was that they advertised it as a place for people to write, not sell. 

                    Had selling been what they advertised, I would never have come here, and frankly, I don't think the team ever intended for this site to be used so extensively for that purpose.

                    I think the income from products is what made this site morph into what it is today, and speaking as someone who has owned and run numerous businesses myself over the years, I completely understand their thinking and I do know what the site is at this point.

                    I also see them realizing that things have gone too far and taking steps to try and correct this problem.  This tells me that I am not quite so wrong in my way of thinking as you would suggest.

                    Frankly, I like having the opportunity to place ads on my hubs and earn a little extra money from them, but I certainly do not think ad articles should be the main thrust of this site, nor do I think it is a good thing.

                    However, as I said before, it does not matter what I think or what you think because in the end, this is not our business.  It belongs to Paul and the team and it is up to them to make the choices that either make or break this site.

                    Trying to convince me or anybody else that we need to think differently is a waste of your time, and frankly, I don't know why you feel you must do this.

                    If you want to place ads, place them.  That's a choice which is your right to make.  If you and others can do this so that the site is still standing a few years from now, great.  If you are wrong, and the site goes under as the result of what you have done, there won't be anything to discuss any more because there will be no HP.  Seems pretty clear cut to me!

                2. Susana S profile image92
                  Susana Sposted 22 months ago in reply to this

                  Not really. They are pages that provide content that searchers are looking for and that meet their needs.

              3. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image94
                TIMETRAVELER2posted 22 months ago in reply to this

                It might also be that those people are paying Google to be placed on page 1.  People do that, you know!

                1. Marisa Wright profile image94
                  Marisa Wrightposted 22 months ago in reply to this

                  TT2, Susana S is very experienced and she knows the difference between paid results (the sponsored ones at the top) and genuine search results! 

                  You used to be able to pay to get on page 1 by indirect means - buying backlinks etc - but it's not nearly so easy now.

        2. Marisa Wright profile image94
          Marisa Wrightposted 22 months ago in reply to this

          Do we really need articles with 10 plus ads on them?   Yes we do.   

          You assume that ANYONE writing a Hub with 10 ads must be a spammer and a useless writer and someone we don't want on HubPages.  That's simply not true and pretty insulting to Hubbers who do use Amazon or eBay ads intelligently, e.g. to provide the materials for a project or to compare different products and help the reader make an informed decision.

          HubPages has never said it doesn't want sales Hubs, or that it doesn't want Hubs with lots of Amazon ads.  It says it doesn't want fake sales Hubs, and it doesn't want lots of irrelevant Amazon ads.    Take a look at the blog and view some of the Hubs they offer as good examples. 

          HubPages is not rolling in money so it can't afford to issue a blanket ban on one of its sources of income.  As you should know, Adsense is not paying well these days and I'm sure they are under constant pressure from their other advertisers to keep rates low.

          1. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image94
            TIMETRAVELER2posted 22 months ago in reply to this

            No, I don't assume that, and you should know better than to think that is what I am doing.  Having lots of ads does not mean your article is thin or that you are a spammer, but I do think it means that the reader could look at it as someone trying to sell them something rather than someone giving them information...and I don't think this is a good idea, whether or not the team permits it. 

            When I read a hub with lots of ads, all I see is someone trying to sell me something...no matter how good the article is.  I can see having a few ads, but certainly not ten.

            1. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image94
              TIMETRAVELER2posted 22 months ago in reply to this

              I just noticed that someone here who is defending not limiting ads has at least one article that shows the same ad not once but twice, and has about 6 of them on her article.  What's with that?  It's bad enough to place six, but to place that same six a second time for a total of twelve?  How is this enriching or helping the reader? 

              I can see now why some here are fighting these changes so hard.  If that isn't spam, I don't know what is!  Sorry!

            2. Marisa Wright profile image94
              Marisa Wrightposted 22 months ago in reply to this

              "Having lots of ads does not mean your article is thin or that you are a spammer"

              ...so what you're saying is, because some people misuse the feature, everybody else has to lose out?

              1. paradigmsearch profile image88
                paradigmsearchposted 22 months ago in reply to this

                Blue Eyes, we kind of need to meandering chat. Not a big deal.

              2. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image94
                TIMETRAVELER2posted 22 months ago in reply to this

                I don't consider a reduction in the number of ads "losing out".  I know many here depend on these ads  increase their income, but  they can still do that with fewer ads.  Why would we want to compromise the integrity of this site and create an opportunity for Google to whack us, when there is a simple compromise people can make to avoid having those problems.  Many will say, well, what I do has always worked in the past...etc...but that was then and this is now.  What happened to Squidoo should be a wakeup call for all of us.

                1. Marisa Wright profile image94
                  Marisa Wrightposted 22 months ago in reply to this

                  Where we fundamentally disagree is that you think Google hates lots of ads.   NO ONE has said that, ever - and I know it's not true because if it were, my blogs would get no traffic.   What Google hates is lots of irrelevant ads.

                  1. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image94
                    TIMETRAVELER2posted 22 months ago in reply to this

                    I agree, totally.  However, when we write here, we must please two masters, not just one.  HP has made it abundantly clear that they do not want spammy hubs and that abusing ads creates spam.  Only really good writers like you know how to produce articles that meet those parameters.  You need to take some time and read some of the articles that are written for the purpose of selling products.  You will be shocked at some of what you will see.  THAT is what I refer to when I make comments here.

          2. Susana S profile image92
            Susana Sposted 22 months ago in reply to this

            +1
            The voice of reason, eloquently stated, as usual.

          3. NiaG profile image91
            NiaGposted 22 months ago in reply to this

            Go Team Marisa! Yes it's stupid to have a bazillion ads on a hub but in my opinion, if it helps readers make a more informed decision on a product I see no harm in increasing the text to capsule ratio just a little bit more. As a consumer of Amazon myself, it is sometimes hard to see all the products you may be interested in before you. Some hubs put them right there so consumers don't have to hunt all day looking for needed items. I say if the hub is written well and capsules aren't out of control let it be.

    4. colorfulone profile image87
      colorfuloneposted 22 months ago in reply to this

      I like product pages, where the writer knows what they are talking about to a large degree. It is great to have someone to trust who is willing to go out of their way to ensure a potential buyer gets the best product for their need.  It takes a lot of time to research some products, (and that can be ever changing), but if I find someone who has already done the homework for me...I will most likely buy through them if I am ready.

      1. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image94
        TIMETRAVELER2posted 22 months ago in reply to this

        You are talking about product review pages, not sales pages.  There is a big difference.

        1. Marisa Wright profile image94
          Marisa Wrightposted 22 months ago in reply to this

          .....so are you proposing that if someone has a product review page, they should be allowed multiple ads, but if it's a sales page, they can't?

          A product review page doesn't have to be about a single product, and is often better if it isn't.  I recently read an excellent Hub about air conditioners - the writer obviously knew his stuff and had set out the pros and cons of several models, indicating which was best for different situations.  It would've been very unhelpful to the reader if he'd been allowed to provide links to only two or three of those models.

          1. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image94
            TIMETRAVELER2posted 22 months ago in reply to this

            Why would he have to provide links to all of them when just a few ads give people a portal to find the others on Amazon and he can point them in that direction verbally.

            I never said we should completely terminate ads, just limit them.  A well written article that is cleverly designed can do well with three or four ads.  People do not need ten of them to get the point unless they are total morons.

            You act like I am somehow picking on people who write sales articles when really I am not.  I am simply suggesting that they use some common sense, like everyone should, and not splatter ads all over their hubs when it really is not necessary to do so. 

            How many different ads for AC units does someone need to show?  Yes, this is a matter of personal opinion, but just because you disagree with me on this issue, do not assume that I am wrong.  My view is just different from yours, and I am entitled to have it without being accused of insulting people or insinuating that they are bad writers.

            It doesn't matter what I think, anyhow, because in the end, this decision belongs to the team.

            1. rebekahELLE profile image90
              rebekahELLEposted 22 months ago in reply to this

                Sometimes hubbers do need 10 items to make available for sale.  The Nursery theme hub is an excellent example.  The hubber has 12 product capsules displayed along with relevant text.  If someone was searching for this information, they have everything they need on one page.  There are so many people now who do not want to go shopping, they want it at their fingertips and delivered to their door.  Maybe they live in an area without a lot of shopping options.  Or they're like myself and millions of others who just don't like shopping from store to store. 
              HP has shown this hub as an example of what's OK.  http://comfortsofhome.hubpages.com/hub/ … by-nursery 
              Or what about the searcher who decides to search a particular topic for information and sees an item displayed relevant to the topic and decides to buy, even though they searched without intention to buy anything?  That's a happy user experience. 

              Hubbers are people.  Calling some 'writers' and others non-writers is not the issue here, and it's insulting and unnecessary.  HP is not an exclusive 'writers' site.  Let's be fair.  Let's get rid of the spam, that's the goal.

              1. Marcy Goodfleisch profile image93
                Marcy Goodfleischposted 22 months ago in reply to this

                Rebekah - I agree that members of this site are people, but we are also on a publishing site. Referring to members as 'writers' is in no way insulting.  HubPages actually uses the term writers several times in the information video on the main page. One of the first phrases in the video says the site has:  "A large, vibrant community of writers . . ." 

                The site also has the following 'blurbs' on its main page:

                DISCOVER
                a wealth of genuine, unique information

                CREATE
                original, in-depth, useful, media-rich Hubs

                CONNECT
                with a passionate community of writers and enthusiasts

                Unique information . . . original, in-depth, useful media-rich . . . a passionate community of writers . . .

                The reference to writers is very clear. Nobody is playing one-ups-man here. If this were a site for teachers, or maybe physicians, there would be references to those skills and fields.

                1. Jean Bakula profile image96
                  Jean Bakulaposted 22 months ago in reply to this

                  I write a lot of hubs which feature a group of people, and like to ad something from Amazon for each of them. But since I write a large bio, the word count usually is OK with the ads I put. But the rest of my writing doesn't lend itself to sales, and I never made an Amazon payout anyway. So I don't care anyway.

                2. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image94
                  TIMETRAVELER2posted 22 months ago in reply to this

                  +1

              2. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image94
                TIMETRAVELER2posted 22 months ago in reply to this

                Actually, HP DOES promote itself as a writer's site.

            2. Marisa Wright profile image94
              Marisa Wrightposted 22 months ago in reply to this

              A Hub about ten different kinds of air conditioner, with ten Amazon ads on it, is not "splattered" with ads. Like many other people, you've got the idea in your head that a lot of ads is bad per se, no matter how relevant they are - and that's just utter rubbish, and even HubPages doesn't agree with you.  As they say on the blog, "A Hub may have 20 products and still be excellent".  And here are two examples from the blog, of GOOD product Hubs:

              http://comfortsofhome.hubpages.com/hub/ … by-nursery
              http://editoranna.hubpages.com/hub/Best … naged-Girl

              Did you look at the graph on the HP blog?   The "reader satisfaction" rating shoots up when the words per product gets to 200 words and doesn't change much after that.   So the evidence says readers are quite happy with a rate of 200 words per product.   Given that evidence, I'd like to see HP increase the word limit to 200 words per product but I don't see the value in going beyond that.

              1. Marcy Goodfleisch profile image93
                Marcy Goodfleischposted 22 months ago in reply to this

                I like the idea of increasing it to 200 words per capsule (per ad?).  That is not a difficult number to reach.  At that rate, a hub with 10 ads would need to be 2,000 words - but that ratio increases the odds that the hub has quality content about products.

                I agree completely that people do their shopping research online. They look for good user information, though, not just product names with ads. Some hubs here have many dozens of ad capsules - at even 100 words per ad, they'd need to write hubs that were 4,000 or more words long.

              2. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image94
                TIMETRAVELER2posted 22 months ago in reply to this

                I agree with that, but if you do the math, people would have to write 2000 words in order to place 10 ads, or 1000 to place five.  Since most people write 1000 more or less on this site, that would limit it to just a bit more than what I was suggesting, and that seems a good number to me for those who want to appropriately place relevant ads on their hubs.

                This would mean the articles would look better visually and then, of course, people would be more likely to make purchases because they actually would be able to SEE the ads.  This is exactly why I feel the number of ads should be somehow limited.  I think the team is being far too liberal with just upping the word count per ad to 100.  That was my point all along.

        2. colorfulone profile image87
          colorfuloneposted 22 months ago in reply to this

          Yes, you are correct, @TIMETRAVELER2
          There is a "big difference" there.

      2. NiaG profile image91
        NiaGposted 22 months ago in reply to this

        Sorry colorfulone. I pretty much reiterated what your initial comment was. I hadn't seen your post yet.

    5. rebekahELLE profile image90
      rebekahELLEposted 22 months ago in reply to this

      +   
      We know that HP is not trying to get rid of all product related hubs, and why should they?  A recent blog gave excellent examples of how to use products in various hubs.  I'm somewhat surprised by some of the responses in this thread and yet it reminds me of a few years ago when there was a similar discussion between the creative writers and the marketers. 

      I'm glad to see the change and would possibly go higher with the word count, but I see no reason to eliminate all product capsules or place a specific number limit.  There are all different kinds of writers here.  It's learning how to write within the guidelines that HP has set with our own unique style.

  13. paradigmsearch profile image88
    paradigmsearchposted 22 months ago

    How about any Amazon or eBay capsule that doesn't score a sale in any 60-day period is automatically hidden?

  14. paradigmsearch profile image88
    paradigmsearchposted 22 months ago

    And I do like you.

    Update. Post made at same time as TT2 post.

  15. paradigmsearch profile image88
    paradigmsearchposted 22 months ago

    And why is the sequence not showing right? And who cares.

  16. DzyMsLizzy profile image93
    DzyMsLizzyposted 22 months ago

    I do not write sales hubs.

    I do not overly promote products.  I use only very relevant (and few) Amazon capsules overall.
    I have over 200 published Hubs, and I would make a guess that I have fewer than 30 Amazon capsules in total over all of those articles.

    The only time I place a product is if it is something I am writing about (for example, an Amazon capsule for the DVD version of a movie I reviewed).

    I have only a single hub with multiple Amazon capsules, and that is my camping for beginners article; each Amazon product is there less to sell a product than as a visual example of the item being addressed in that section of the hub.

    It is rare for me to write fewer than 1200 words, but I do have some of the shorter ones; particularly my poetry hubs, and some of my humorous essays.

    All of this said, I presume that once we enter "edit" mode for the purpose of doing nothing other than assessing word counts, even if we make no changes at all, this will count as an "edit," and could cause a problem down the road?

    1. paradigmsearch profile image88
      paradigmsearchposted 22 months ago in reply to this

      Just saying hi.

      1. DzyMsLizzy profile image93
        DzyMsLizzyposted 22 months ago in reply to this

        LOL  Hi, yourself, paradigm!

    2. Marina Lazarevic profile image86
      Marina Lazarevicposted 22 months ago in reply to this

      DzyMsLizzy, the warning will appear when you go into edit mode, but your Hub won't get moderated unless you make an edit (e.g., edit a capsule, move a capsule, delete a capsule). In a few days there will also be a skull icon next to Hubs that complied with the old rule but violate the new one in My Account > Statistics. That should help Hubbers find the Hubs that need to be fixed.

      1. DzyMsLizzy profile image93
        DzyMsLizzyposted 22 months ago in reply to this

        Thank you for that clarification, Marina.

  17. paradigmsearch profile image88
    paradigmsearchposted 22 months ago

    https://i.imgflip.com/h0sud.jpg

    1. NiaG profile image91
      NiaGposted 22 months ago in reply to this

      Ha!

  18. Marisa Wright profile image94
    Marisa Wrightposted 22 months ago

    Well, at one time HubPages had hundreds of Hubs full of adult content, saucy photos etc - until they realised Google didn't like it. Also in the early days, I saw Hubs which were just one image, which a Hubber felt like sharing with other Hubbers.  And until the first Panda in 2011, "sales" Hubs were THE most praised and promoted Hubs of all.  So no, HubPages didn't start out as a place to write and morph into a place to make money, more the reverse. 

    HubPages always used to be promoted as a place to make money by creating Hubs.  It is only since income has dropped that they've switched their promotional emphasis to "writing what you love".

    1. rebekahELLE profile image90
      rebekahELLEposted 22 months ago in reply to this

      It was encouraged from the start to publish blog-like hubs which would generate ad revenue.  The topics could be anything that we wanted to write about.  The site has evolved through the years, just like all things online, which it is continuing to do. 
      In essence, Google created its own monster with ad revenue opportunities. Everyone wants to put up a site/page and earn money and wonders why it doesn't happen overnight.  Keeping a user generated content site as big as HP alive and viable requires a lot of change and risks.  I admire the administrators for their insight and perseverance.

    2. NateB11 profile image93
      NateB11posted 22 months ago in reply to this

      I'm always fascinated when I hear about the history of the site and what it was like way back and how it's changed.

      1. Marcy Goodfleisch profile image93
        Marcy Goodfleischposted 22 months ago in reply to this

        I agree, Nate - in reading the way things were prior to when I signed up, I would not have wanted to be here.  Yes, people made money, but that manner of doing so does not interest me.

        As with TT2, when I joined, I thought it was a writing site. In fact, the site specifically advertised for writers in my area, and stated they needed new writers (and that revenue was available).  Sadly, this was during that brief window of time when they used some old 'success stories' and data on revenue (from during the halcyon years) to lure people to write. Panda had already hit, though, and even the success stories were not successful at that point.

        That information was posted prominently on HP's opening page, and it stayed there for several months. Several of us (names you would recognize, many of whom already had track records as writers) signed up at that time, based on outdated information and examples.  Had I know about Panda, I would not have joined.  Also, had I known about the really old and really bad content still on the site, I would not have joined. HP had placed ads for writers, not spammers and not adult content generators.

        I love the community of colleagues here, but I don't know how I feel about the misinformation that led me to be here. I don't think there was malice in the misinformation - I think it reflected HP's desire to reverse a really sad situation, and to use some good writers (who had enjoyed good revenue back in the day) as examples to attract new writers.

        1. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image94
          TIMETRAVELER2posted 22 months ago in reply to this

          I feel exactly as you do Marcy and am disappointed to hear Marissa's summary of "the old days".  I guess in the end it's the "bucks" that count, and not really the quality of writing.  I am beginning to wonder why I have spent so much time trying to produce "quality" writing here, when all I really have to do is write sales oriented articles with enough wordage to justify the ads and then make bushels of dough!  It's sickening.

          1. Jean Bakula profile image96
            Jean Bakulaposted 22 months ago in reply to this

            It's a completely different site than when I came four years ago. People were making money, backlinking, and it wasn't a big issue how many Amazon capsules you put on your hub. But it was still considered a "writer's site" and there were many really good writers on it.

            The Panda algorithm changed everything. For the group who began when I did, it took a lot longer to make our first payout. Many saw the writing on the wall and left. Then the rules kept changing, and we had to keep editing all our hubs. It took so many hours of time to do that. Now it's not really advertised as a "writer's site" anymore, it's about "having fun, writing what you love." That isn't going to make much money, and the administration fully admits that.

            HP is still the nicest writing community though, as there aren't many left. The administrators are trying to do what they can to keep up with all the technology changes, but it's a losing battle I think. Eventually we will be down to just the people who write because they love to. And that's OK too.

            1. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image94
              TIMETRAVELER2posted 22 months ago in reply to this

              If the administration admits that people are not going to make much money here, that tells me that they do not expect the site to continue much longer.  Without income, HP will not be able to sustain itself, so I would think they would want to encourage quality writing about interesting topics so that the public would be encouraged to read and this, in turn, would encourage advertisers to pay up.

              1. Jean Bakula profile image96
                Jean Bakulaposted 22 months ago in reply to this

                I've gone back on the Hopper, and see the same old, tired topics on there. How to lose weight. How to make money with SEO (when I don't think it matters much anymore). And I say this as someone who writes in an over saturated niche and still managed pretty well when the going was better. My readers say they like my style of writing.

                I don't know what other sites there are now, unless you want to compare 5 different refrigerators or something equally boring. I've been experimenting with some fictional pieces, but notice readership seems to be down as well. Normally people read and write more after the Holiday season dies down, but I'm not seeing that. It's still a place to practice our writing, if nothing else.

                I've gone on to teaching Tarot and Astrology out of a business near my house now, so am enjoying that, and meeting new people. I still love to write, but am not sure what direction I want to take in that regard. I didn't plan to take the role of a teacher when I began writing here, but that's the way it went, and I may continue onward in that vein. I still have my blog, but don't post on it nearly as much as I did.

                1. OldRoses profile image84
                  OldRosesposted 22 months ago in reply to this

                  Jean, I hear you.  After 7 years here, I'm considering moving my hubs to my own site.  It's not HP fault.  I blame Google for discriminating against an entire category of sites (content farms) thereby punishing writers.  A year ago, I moved my hubs on herbs to my own site and the traffic from Google on that site is three times the traffic from Google on my hubs.  It's discouraging that Google wants to drive sites like HP out of business.  Sites like HP are where many fine writers got their start because they didn't have to invest any money nor learn how to administer a website.  HP does all that for them as they get they practice and perfect their craft.  Shame on Google for picking on the little guy.

  19. paradigmsearch profile image88
    paradigmsearchposted 22 months ago

    http://s1.hubimg.com/u/8240956_f520.jpg

  20. PaulGoodman67 profile image90
    PaulGoodman67posted 22 months ago

    Good move HP!

  21. ecogranny profile image88
    ecogrannyposted 22 months ago

    " In other words, if you have a Hub below the new limit and do not edit it, it will be safe from becoming moderated for violating this rule.  We decided to implement the change this way so that you could bring your Hubs into compliance with the new rule at your own pace."

    Apparently this is not true, because my hub on eco-friendly baby gifts under $10 now has a red skull on it. It was fine before, but tonight not. Apparently I don't have 100 words for every one of the items we love to gift to our friends and family having babies.

    I rarely did lenses-now-hubs that focused on products, unless Squidoo had a challenge for them. This is one of the few, and it is a favorite because it really is hard to find eco-friendly gifts that are inexpensive and meet that adorable factor.

    I hope this is a mistake and that someone on staff will see it and fix it.

    1. Jean Bakula profile image96
      Jean Bakulaposted 22 months ago in reply to this

      ecogranny,
      Before you do too much, maybe try taking off only one or two products, and then wait a day, and see if the skull goes away. Often you only have to tweak a hub a tiny bit and it gets back in HP's good graces again. Good luck to you.

      1. ecogranny profile image88
        ecogrannyposted 22 months ago in reply to this

        Thank you for your kindly response, Jean Bakula. Unfortunately, doing anything at all with it is out of the question today, and perhaps for a whole week, but that's not the point.

        My beef is with HubPages saying they wouldn't diss our hubs until after we edited them, yet here it is, "Out Of Compliance With Our New Product Policy."

        I would like to know they keep their word about such things. Otherwise, how can we trust them to report our earnings and views correctly?

      2. Benny01 profile image44
        Benny01posted 22 months ago in reply to this

        @Jean Bukalu I also saw the skull on one of my hubs and while trying to edit it, I mistakenly deleted the contents of my hub and I don't know if there is any way I can retrieve the contents.

    2. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image94
      TIMETRAVELER2posted 22 months ago in reply to this

      At this point I doubt your ads are the problem.  Have you checked your outgoing links or the links to your images. Those count, too.  Also, since making that initial announcement the team added that at some future date ALL hubs will be reviewed and will be treated like the ones that are now being penalized.

      1. ecogranny profile image88
        ecogrannyposted 22 months ago in reply to this

        Thank you, TimeTraveler2. No I haven't had a moment to check anything, and I may not get that time for a full week, but the skull appeared yesterday evening. It hadn't been there two or three hours earlier. The reason given for the violation: "Out Of Compliance With Our New Product Policy."

        As I said in reply to Jean Bakula, above, I want to know we can trust the HubPages people. This makes me quite uneasy on that score.

      2. ecogranny profile image88
        ecogrannyposted 22 months ago in reply to this

        Thank you, TimeTraveler2. No I haven't had a moment to check anything, and I may not get that time for a full week, but the skull appeared yesterday evening. It hadn't been there two or three hours earlier. The reason given for the violation: "Out Of Compliance With Our New Product Policy."

        As I said in reply to Jean Bakula, above, I want to know we can trust the HubPages people. This makes me quite uneasy on that score.

  22. PeterV profile image79
    PeterVposted 22 months ago

    What the heck??? On 1/25/15 I published my first hub. It wasn't great.  I should have been fine tuned and tracked better.  It gets featured.  My goal was really just to get my first hub finished and published so I could anchor in and move forward.

    On 1/31/15, I published my second hub.  This one has 1158 words, one Amazon and one Ebay capsule.  It gets a "Not Featured" status ...with the reason given as "feels too spamy".  What's that? I am not selling or promoting ANYTHING.  It was detailed answer that I gave to a friend when she wanted to understand how to interpret metric tire sizes. 

    I have no clue where to even start to finish such a vague review.

    1. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image94
      TIMETRAVELER2posted 22 months ago in reply to this

      Sometimes you can use too many links within your article, especially if they are to your own site or bogs, and you will get unfeatured for spam.

      1. PeterV profile image79
        PeterVposted 22 months ago in reply to this

        ok thanks, but I don't believe that I have ( without looking), and if I do there is only a couple and they don't go to anything that is mine.  Ok, there appears to be one link in the 1150+ word article..and it goes to a calculator that is NOT mine.  It just really feels like a "I just don't like your article" kinda thing.  Grrr....  Oh well, we will see.  I resubmitted it.

        1. rebekahELLE profile image90
          rebekahELLEposted 22 months ago in reply to this

          I see a hub on your profile page about tire sizes and it doesn't look or sound spammy to me.  Is it now featured?  If it isn't and you want suggestions, you can post the link in the Improving Your Hub forum.
          http://hubpages.com/forum/category/2885
          The only thing I might add is a video if you can find a good one and possibly another photo showing a close up of where to find the tire sizes.

          1. PeterV profile image79
            PeterVposted 22 months ago in reply to this

            Thanks rebekah.  I will look for a good video or maybe just make one. smile It isn't featured at the moment, but I just put it back in for republishing a few hours ago.

        2. Susana S profile image92
          Susana Sposted 22 months ago in reply to this

          Have you got at least 100 words per product? If not then that'll be the problem.

          1. PeterV profile image79
            PeterVposted 22 months ago in reply to this

            well... my math might be a little rusty, but I think so... wink There are 1153 words and no products accept one random Amazon capsule and one random Ebay capsule.  Granted I am the product of the public school system, and am not update on this new core curriculum math stuff, but in my day that would be like one product to every 550 words. wink

            1. Susana S profile image92
              Susana Sposted 22 months ago in reply to this

              I was replying to ecogranny. Sorry I replied to wrong post.

              1. ecogranny profile image88
                ecogrannyposted 22 months ago in reply to this

                Susana, if I don't have, I'm pretty close, because I have a lot of words in that article. I don't write fluff, and I hate sales articles, so on the rare occasions I've done one, it's because I think the piece will be of real benefit to others like me.

                And if it doesn't have the 100 words per product, then it shouldn't have been flagged yet as "Out Of Compliance With Our New Product Policy," should it, because, "if you have a Hub below the new limit and do not edit it, it will be safe from becoming moderated for violating this rule."

                1. wilderness profile image95
                  wildernessposted 22 months ago in reply to this

                  "Pretty close" isn't good enough: I got notice of one hub with 8 amazon ads and 783 words.  I thought I had fixed it, but obviously not. 

                  You can check via the "violations" button on the stats screen, which I've been doing because I have several older sales hubs that were out of compliance. Some of those I don't really care about, but some produce monthly sales (this was one of them) and want to keep.

                2. Susana S profile image92
                  Susana Sposted 22 months ago in reply to this

                  I have 4 hubs flagged. Like yours the word count is very close, but this is done via an algorithm rather than human moderation so it will be looking strictly for the 100 word minimum per product.

                  Also, just because these hubs now have red skulls it doesn't mean they are going to get unpublished. HubPages has said they won't be unless we edit the hubs and fail to fix the problem - you can trust that.

                  I imagine at some point we will all be given a deadline to fix these hubs by, but I would guess that will be months off yet.

                3. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image94
                  TIMETRAVELER2posted 22 months ago in reply to this

                  I would definitely email the team and ask them about this .

                4. Marina Lazarevic profile image86
                  Marina Lazarevicposted 22 months ago in reply to this

                  Hi ecogranny, this warning appears on violating Hubs regardless of whether they've been edited. The warning is not a moderation; it's just a message. You can expand the warning message by clicking on the arrow to the left of the yellow text. It clarifies that this is just a warning, and that your Hub will only be moderated if you edit it. Here is the full text of the warning:
                  "Your Hub is currently published. However, it has a large number of Amazon or eBay products listed in comparison to the amount of text. Our policy has changed to require 100 words of original text for every product featured in a Hub. If you edit this Hub without bringing it into compliance with our new policy, it may be moderated as overly promotional."

                  You may also find this post helpful. Let me know if you have any other questions, or feel free to email us.

                  1. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image94
                    TIMETRAVELER2posted 22 months ago in reply to this

                    Yes, but you recently posted that this is only for right now and that, at some future date, all hubs, old or new, edited or not, will have to adjust to meet this new requirement.  I think it's important for people to know this is coming, otherwise, down the road, we could have a huge number of hubs being unpublished because people will not have enough time to make the necessary corrections.

                  2. ecogranny profile image88
                    ecogrannyposted 22 months ago in reply to this

                    Thank you for getting back to me, Marina. I did not realize the red skulls of death would be affixed to the hubs now, but I'm glad to know that doesn't mean it is unfeatured.

                    Interestingly enough, according to HubMetrics, I have 1585 words on that hub, which has 15 carefully selected items that I have personally gifted to family and friends in the last few years.  I've written all my own copy for every last one.

                    Now, it's true, I haven't edited this hub since before Christmas. It's time to check that all the products are still good, because Amazon changes them out from time to time, or changes the prices so they no longer meet the promise in the title, but if I understand the new policy correctly, this hub is not in violation.

                    So why the red skull?

            2. Millionaire Tips profile image89
              Millionaire Tipsposted 22 months ago in reply to this

              I haven't read your hub, but the word "random" in your description tells me that you may have found the issue.  The links and capsules must be directly related to the content on the hub.  Random doesn't seem like it does that.

              1. PeterV profile image79
                PeterVposted 22 months ago in reply to this

                well, it is possible.... by random, i meant "not pointed at anything that I myself was selling".  Not the best word to use I guess.  Thanks.  I am fairly new here so like any Noob, I have not figured out 99% of what is really going on here.

                1. Millionaire Tips profile image89
                  Millionaire Tipsposted 22 months ago in reply to this

                  I took a look at your tire hub.  You are selling a tire gauge. Yes I know you didn't make it and it is from Amazon, but you don't mention anything about inflating a tire, so the tire gauge is random.  Either take out the Amazon capsules, or find a way to get them to fit into the hub more properly by talking about inflating tires. The eBay capsule is the same. It has to do with tires, but it is random to the hub.

                  1. PeterV profile image79
                    PeterVposted 22 months ago in reply to this

                    ok. will do. thanks. smile

    2. OldRoses profile image84
      OldRosesposted 22 months ago in reply to this

      Peter, I read both of your hubs.  The first one on firefighting training was great.  Lots of good info for anyone considering this career.  The second hub felt more like an ad for slow cookers and sauce.  Perhaps if you wrote more on why you prefer using the sauce over creating your own sauce or why a slow cooker is a better choice over other preparation methods.

      1. PeterV profile image79
        PeterVposted 22 months ago in reply to this

        Thanks.  It was my "tires" hub that they didn't like.  It is funny that you said that about my pulled pork recipe, because once I published it, the first picture of the picante sauce is too large and does make it feel a bit like an ad.  It wasn't intended that way,  that just happened to be the brand of sauce I had on hand when I discovered this technique, and works really well.  Anyway, it made ponder the system a bit when that recipe went through without question, but the tire article was not featured.

  23. Jodah profile image86
    Jodahposted 22 months ago

    This is a welcome policy change, even though with mainly poetry hubs I received notification that about 12 hubs now didn't meet the word count per ad. I have removed the ads from all of these to comply even though it wasn't required unless they were edited. I now have a few hubs with no Amazon or eBay capsules at all. Just one thing I found out that may be of interest. Even if in "edit" mode you have empty Amazon and eBay capsules on your hub, they are treated as part of the product count. You have to delete them. I couldn't work out why a few of my hubs with only one product ad and more than 100 word were flagged.

  24. Venkatachari M profile image84
    Venkatachari Mposted 22 months ago

    I am much confused at this discussion. Does hubs contain amazon and ebay products, as you say, one product per each 100 words of that hub? Then, if a hub is made up of 1000 words, does it contain 10 product ads plus 5 google ads? Total 15 ads in a single hub!!!!! Are there hubs like that here on hubpages?
    One more thing, I want clarification is do people write only to sell some products here on hubpages? I mean, product hubs.

    Regarding, word count limit per one hub, the minimum count which is presently 700 words should be retained as it is and I think maximum also may be fixed as 1500 words only, considering from the readers point of view.

  25. Benny01 profile image44
    Benny01posted 22 months ago

    I agree with Marcy, I join HP mainly to write article that will benefit my readers and not for the ad. Focusing on how many ads we should add to our hub will reduce the quality of our hubs completely, earning through an ad should be a plus.

  26. paradigmsearch profile image88
    paradigmsearchposted 22 months ago

    From the HP newsletter...

    "...We have significant evidence at this point that readers prefer fewer products..."

    And that's the name of that tune...

    Got some non-performing Amazon or eBay capsules? Un-display them for awhile. I, for one, don't want HubPages being sent another can of whoopass from Google.

    1. NateB11 profile image93
      NateB11posted 22 months ago in reply to this

      Very true. We need to think about what's good for the site.

      Plus, you're cracking me up.

      1. paradigmsearch profile image88
        paradigmsearchposted 22 months ago in reply to this

        https://i.imgflip.com/gzcca.jpg

 
working