Last September, I transferred here unwillingly when Squidoo closed down. Although it wasn't what I wanted to do, I tried to adapt, and edited all my lenses and made them into hubs. It was a lot of work, but at first, things seemed to be going well.
Not any more! I seem to be getting more and more hubs unfeatured for lack of traffic, and one is even unfeatured for quality. I've been editing them, and deleting some capsules, but there are quite a few to work on, and it's time-consuming.
Pretty soon, I will have to decide if it is really worthwhile to continue here, with so little results. I have been told that some of my hubs are thin on content, but I have worked on them, and done what I can.
Perhaps my topics are of no interest to others, who knows.
Sorry if I seem to be complaining, but at the moment, I'm feeling really down about my hubs, and am seriously considering no bothering with them anymore.
Is anyone else feeling the same? Any suggestions to improve traffic? Social media isn't doing much at all, so where to go next?
Think I'll go and cuddle the cat......
It might be worth your time to consider improving the titles of your hubs. Most of your titles appear to be quite short and generic. A good title will be specific and should explain what a reader will expect from the article.
For example, instead of "Ceramic Knives" you might call it "Top 5 Advantages of Ceramic Knives" or something that is more specific.
There are many good resources on how to write search friendly titles.
I do agree that improving titles of hubs could be / is beneficial. If things aren't looking so good it sure isn't going to hurt to experiment some.
Adding numbers to a title always helps with traffic, as long as they are applicable.
I have been here more than 3 years, and my main site is doing OK...not great, but OK. I started a second site 6 months ago, and it is doing horribly bad! I keep playing with it, but nothing seems to work, and I wonder why I can do well in one place but not in another.
Many of the articles on the second site came from the first one and did well there. Now they are tanking.
Don't know if this helps, but wanted you to see that there can be another side to this picture!
i had been at hp for 5 years now, in the past it was easy to earn money but after the panda stuff everything went down. you want to remove your unfeatued hubs to your own sites, blogs and leaves the good ones here. sorry to hear your problems. everyone is having a bad time too. me too. thought of giving up.
Like you, I've thought of giving up, but I must have a stubborn streak, because I'm working on updating my hubs. :-)
If it doesn't work this time, though, I will seriously look at moving some of my work to other sites where they may fit in better.
I wish I knew what to tell you.
I have been here over 8 years and have stopped updating Hubs because when I do, they get unfeatured.
I'd love to say just hang in there.
So that's what i will say.
Hang in there and keep trying.
To the best of my recollection, my first account was here two years before the traffic and money started happening. It is not an easy path. But it is possible to eventually get some money coming in every month.
And do keep those 4 pythons away from the cat.
HubPages has always seen a big dip in traffic over the summer months. However as the overall site traffic has gotten drop after drop, each summer has become much more grim.
As someone approaching their ninth anniversary of joining the site, it's been going downhill for four years in comparison to the first five. The last two years have been the steeper part of the decline.
Given that this is your experience, how do you feel about continuing on Hubpages. How does it fit into your Internet strategy going forward.
Having been here at HP for some years, I've seen a lot of bouncing up and down. It took 8 months or so to get any traffic from outside HP. Then in the Golden Years, traffic went through the roof. It's never been that way again. Every time visits go down, I have a cow. Then they go up some and I am happy. Summer is no time to judge traffic. I won't get my shorts in a twist over summer's lull.
As a former Squid I know how your feel. I have been editing my sites mainly for the spelling, grammar and the image quality. I have made other fixes with the links. But my score seams to keep going down further and further. After doing the fixes my hubs are either featured or not. And it feels like there are more in the not featured quality. The first lens / hub I ever published that was always in my top 5 on Squidoo is now down below 50 on this scale. I do agree it feels frustrating at times. And looking at some of the other comments there are positives and negatives from those that are participating. Sorry if this doesn't sound on the positive side.But I am not sure what's happening right now either.
It pays to go with your own sites! I have done better in past 6 months on my own than 4 years of content farms.
I was just coming here to say the same thing. I've been slowly moving my old transferred lenses off HP onto my own websites and am beginning, now, to see sales stats and ad earning revenue that's starting to approach the "good old days" of Squidoo for me.
The problem, in my humble opinion, was clearly not the content, despite HP repeatedly calling it "low quality" or spammy. The problem has been the platform.
I recommend looking into setting up your own sites/blogs, or looking into some of the smaller co-operative/co-authoring sites that have been set up by ex-Squids like Goody Guides (or if I may, my own site Spacial Anomaly).
It is discouraging after having enjoyed the traffic we had on Squidoo. It's hard to adjust to the new reality. I'm not saying it is Hubpages fault as it may be the whims of Google we should blame.
I've moved some away to similar sites like Webnuggetz, started my own page for one topic, and started 2 ebooks for two other topics. My former best pages show a little life here but no matter how I massage them, it's not working out for me.
Just saying... I know how you feel.
I have three of my own websites, which I update via Blogger. I host google adsense on the sites. From from an income point of view the time I devote to them is not justified because they simply don't get enough traffic. I've reached the conclusion that very few people are able to earn money by hosting ads on their hubs or sites. I imagine that many close their accounts before they have reached the threshold at which a payment will be made to them. These people are simply earning income for Amazon, eBay, Google etc.etc. I have around £16 in my Adsense account at present. There is another £15 in an Amazon account that I have closed - and the money is inaccessible to me. Multiply these small sums by the thousands and thousands of people who have no doubt given up and it adds up to substantial sum of money. I strongly believe that policy should be changed so that if one decides to close an account the money from that account is paid out. Alternatively, could there not be a transparent policy of donating it to charitable causes? What is happening to it all? It's just sitting there earning interest for the Amazon, or whoever. I'm seriously considering removing all ads from my websites and writing my blogs simply for the pleasure of writing and honing my skills
@GlenisRix - take a look at Skimlinks. Join Skimlinks, put the code on your site and you can earn income from links to Amazon and many other affiliate networks without having to be a member of them. The great thing is that the payout threshold is only $10.
You will earn better from Skimlinks if you use images as well as ordinary text links to link to products.
However as TimeTraveler2 found, making money on a blog isn't easy either! You have to have a good topic and you have to work out how to monetize successfully, which is more than just putting a few ads on your posts.
So I am intrigued by Skimliks, but I am not sure how it works, and their site is somewhat oblique. It says it automatically enters links? How much control do we have over it? I might want them on some pages but not others.
Skimlinks worked for Marisa, but not for me. I never got the first sale from it, even after 6 months. I found it limiting and also felt the loss of some control over it. Maybe I did things wrong, but it just did not work for me.
You have a number of choices with Skimlinks. In its simplest form, you can allow it to search for product links in your blog and turn them into affiliate links. However that is definitely not the best way to use it.
You can do much more by searching for merchants on Skimlinks that sell products matching your post topics, then creating your own "affiliate ads" for those products.
So for instance, instead of logging into Amazon and getting the affiliate code for one of their ads, you simply use the Amazon image from that product, link it to the Amazon product page (using an ordinary link, not an affiliate link), and then let Skimlinks turn it into an affiliate link.
That sounds like it would look much better than those ugly Amazon ads and links.
What happens if I have a link to a page that is not part of their program. Will it ignore it or will it find a product with one of its affiliates to link it to? I have links on my blog to my own website that I want to maintain.
For the link to convert, it needs to be a link to a product on a website that belongs to one of their merchants. But they do have thousands of merchants and you may even be linking to some of them already without realising.
You can of course keep any other links you like, Skimlinks will just ignore them.
Yes, personally I like being able to use my own choice of Amazon images instead of those ugly ads. Plus I use Wordpress which sometimes doesn't play nicely with Amazon affiliate code, so it's nice not to have to worry about that.
I had a good topic as is evidenced by the fact that I had more than 10,000 page views during the 6 months that I kept it. However, it was A LOT OF WORK and although I thought Skimlinks was a good way to monetize for me, I was wrong. I didn't know much about that aspect back then, but even so, you would think somebody would have bought something! Marisa is a pro at this stuff, but obviously, I am not...although I do earn well here at HP during my season and make payout and more most months. I probably needed a website rather than a blog.
Thanks for your comments and ideas. At least I know I'm not alone in all this!
Skear, I will check out some of my titles, and see what I can do with them - it's something I haven't done before.
Some of you have been here at HP for years, and are also having a decline in traffic. I wonder if this is because of increased competition? There are so many sites and blogs out there today. If this is so, only the very best articles are going to get looked at.
My sites don't seem to be getting much traffic at the moment, and perhaps those who say it's the Summer traffic dip are correct.
Thanks again, everyone, and I feel a little more positive now, so off to work on a couple of hubs to see what I can do with them.
It's good to know there are always people willing to share and help.
I'm with sabreblade on this one. Every time I edit a hub, it gets unfeatured. My hubs also gets unfeatured if they make any money at all or start getting views
Seems odd that hubs get unfeatured if edited, make money or get views! You'd think that it would improve their rating, Jen.
I'm sorry to hear of your discouragement, Snakes. I'm going to hop over and take a look at some of your work.
One of my former Editor's Choice hubs recently was unfeatured due to lack of traffic. Since it was a holiday recipe with lots of photos, I was shocked. Today I decided to take a good look at it and found that the text was less than 1,000 words, there was no video and there was much I could do to improve the wording of the article. I can only hope it becomes featured again after sharing it on Facebook and Google plus.
I hope you will continue to write here and gain some momentum with traffic.
All the best to you.
I know the feeling actually, very strict on here I must say. I have edited my Hub many times and it's almost as if the moderator just wants to close me down. I have ONE link at the BOTTOM of my article, my article is hand written and I have offered what I believe to be some handy advice. I'm starting to wonder if it's the hubs that have the adverts making HP money that seem to be getting more favouritism here frankly!
I have been around for a few years and it keeps getting worse. I stopped writing on HP. I don't know what to do about my existing content since it's so varied, a blog wouldn't work out.
So I'll just leave most of my articles here and collect the little money I get each money from them.
I wish to thank everyone for commenting here; I found all of these helpful.
My story is that I have been on HP for 3 years. I've never written at Squidoo. I've had a total of one payout ($50 something).
I have many deleted hubs that I have saved on a flash drive. This morning I unpublished (without deletion) hubs that HP has unfeatured due to engagement (traffic). Then I went through and unpublished (again, without deletion) hubs that scored below 80.
Guess what? My success rate, based on remaining hubs compared to total hubs on my account, is 58%! That definitely is failure.
In unpublishing some of my hubs, I did see where titles and summaries could be improved. And, if any of you know me, you know I have had a hard time focusing on a niche (I blame my Gemini sun sign). However, after reading comments here, I realize a blog might be useful. I don't have my own website, which also might be helpful.
My best hubs fell into the following topics: sewing, holistic health, child development, and writing (grammar and mechanics). To focus on the sewing, I think my own website and YouTube videos would work best. Perhaps just child development articles here on HubPages will serve me. As far as writing, I think I'd better just practice writing; the fairly recent membership at Book Country should satisfy me if I just use it.
All this takes time. I remind myself to be patient. New businesses starting up often take 5 years before getting out of the red (at least, that use to be the rule of thumb). Habits can be changed and dreams can come true, whether HubPages or some other sites and endeavors.
Keep happy and keep writing!
I'm out of here and will be taking my article elsewhere, clearly the owners of this platform just want those that make them money with Google ads to stick around. Thanks for wasting my time, I'm out.
Maybe thinking of a more general idea for a website that could include a variety of topics. I'm working on mine, (haven't really put anything on it until I get a decent amount written), and the main topic is secrets of a single mom. I'm going to include different things that i like writing about, like health and beauty, kids, finances, etc. All of them would apply to a single mom. I know it's not a popular choice (I've heard multiple times I should pick a niche), but I don't see it turning out badly either.
Angel: You don't need a ton of articles. I started mine with maybe a handful. Single moms??? You will do better with own site. I think your idea is wonderful! Look how many single moms there are out there, young moms, even married moms who could benefit from information that you provide. I have one for infants to toddlers, various categories, and it does very well. In fact, all of my sites do well.
Get a paid domain. You can start with a few articles, and then just add one daily, a couple of times a week, at least once a week.
Thanks! I got a paid domain, and am trying to get a break from work to get it started more. I think I'm going to add in a giveaway tab too I was trying to write more than one article at a time, and I think I like your idea better of writing one a day or a couple a week. When you make it more realistic like that it seems so easy
You can also take your hubs to sites like Writedge or Honest Reviewz, and not only make more money, but you will not have to put up with constant rule changing and having to spend insane amounts of time revising your work over and over.
Today, it seems as if things are getting worse. Although I've edited several hubs, after they were unfeatured for lack of traffic, they were marked as unfeatured for quality. This, after I'd deleted most Amazon capsules, and left only the minimum.
That's it for those hubs, they're gone, and I'm getting tired of trying. No good putting them on my own site, as they wouldn't fit there.
I'm getting discouraged, and haven't felt like writing anything new for a while now - it just doesn't seem worth the effort, although I've tried to remain positive. Back to more editing of hubs, I guess........
I took a quick look at your "I Need to Get Fit" hub and here are a few thoughts that might help you:
First, nobody, but nobody, wants to read about YOUR issues or how you deal with them. People come online to find out what to do about THEIR issues. Thus, you need to change the focus of this article. The info in it is good, but you should gear it to readers and title it in a way that makes them want to read it.
Unless you have a strong background or lots of experience with fitness issues, writing an article like this will not have a lot of credibility for readers. If you do have such experience, etc, you should state this. It is one thing if Jillian (the fitness guru) writes it, but quite another if someone like you or me writes it.
Instead of "I Need to Get Fit" how about something like, "Ten Tips That Will Help You to Shape Up Fast".
Also, your article seems a bit out of focus. I would not include an equipment list, for example. Make that the topic for another hub "Fitness Equipment That Tones and Shapes".
Also, I don't see much SEO. The first sentence in your first paragraph should restate your title, and the last sentence of the article should restate it again (using synonyms, of course). Also, your capsule titles should refer back to your title in some way.
Your ad about tennis shoes seems out of place. Your article is about getting fit, not tennis shoes.
One more problem, which is a big one, is that this topic is saturated. Everybody and his brother has written about fitness. When you have so much competition, it is highly unlikely that your article will be ranked well enough by Google to be visible to searchers.
Having said all of this, let me say that the issues I see are very common and are extremely easy to create. You are not the only person who makes them, and you won't be the last. I've done these things myself many times and probably will continue to do so. Writing is very hard!
Hi Timetraveller 2,
Thanks for taking the time to look at one of my hubs, and for your critique.
I think you are probably right about the points you make about the fitness hub; this particular article is a transfer from Squidoo, and was written in a different way from HP's wants.
It's certainly not the way I would write something today, and perhaps one day soon, I'll find the time to update it. I may even delete it, but currently it can stay to keep the numbers of hubs up.
You're right! "Writing is very hard!" :-)
I started writing here three years ago. I wrote a handful of hubs then quit when the whole featured-unfeatured thing started happening. I understand what Hubpages is trying to do in terms of improving the content here, but ultimately writing just stopped being fun for me and I got a bit discouraged.
Then seven months ago I started blogging on a different site. I have the freedom to write about what I'm interested in and I have started to enjoy writing again. What's more, I have gotten a lot of support and interest from key people within the niche I blog about. This has done wonders for my traffic - my blog posts have gotten more traffic than my hubs, despite the blog being new and the hubs being established. Even more importantly, my writing opportunities have started to blossom and it looks like I'm going to have my very first guest article on a website in my niche. I'm so excited! No, I don't make money off my blog but guess what? I haven't made money from Hubpages either!
I guess my point is this, there is more than one way to define success as a writer. I credit Hubpages with giving me my first taste of writing online and I'm not complaining about this site. It is what it is and I accept that. But I feel like I have come so much farther in terms of advancing my potential to earn money as a writer since I started blogging. If you love writing DO NOT limit yourself to Hubpages. By all means still write hubs. But if you can't write about what you love here, find some place where you can.
Best of luck to all!
The advice I'm reading about from a variety of great writers like yourselves is excellent and it's one of the best things about hubpages that you won't find elsewhere. For myself, Hubpages is my beginning to a potential writing career or at least side career before branching out into blogs and personal websites. I did begin an eBook about a month ago, so I'll see how that goes when I finish it but so far so good on here.
I'm not expecting to make it big here or earn much, but I've said before that it's okay because it's one step on a continuous journey. I know there's been a lot of complaints about the site, but at least things are getting addressed and they're trying to make it better for us.
Glenis Rix: I don't use Adsense on my sites. i use infolinks. Income from the ad sites like Adsense, etc is a slow process. Infolinks minimum is less than Adsense but it is still high. If I make payout great, if not, oh well. I don't focus on that for income. However, I make sales almost daily from my sites, which is better than I ever did on HP or other content farms. My sales, from my sites alone, so far this year, have surpassed the past 3 years I was with HP.
Hello mister snakesmum. I was reading some of your hub. You did a marvelous beautiful work. Some of your hub are highly qualified for stellar hubs. My advice to you. Start doing hubs with the hub pages program. Read the instructions on how they want the hubs done. Hubpages learning center. I believe the work done somewhere else does not have much opportunity in the hubpages sites because they are large . After, you read and learn hubpages rules. You will see . What I am talking. Good luck to you. You will do an excellent job here at hubpages.
TimeTraveler: I have a couple on blogspot. I use Weebly for my web sites.
Thanks. I tried Blogger awhile back and had great views but virtually no money...and...I found it to be a lot of work! Don't know much about Weebly or Blogspot but am skittish about moving hubs given my past experience.
TT, I've started a Blogger blog with the intent of trying to monetize it. But I definitely don't have a lot of time to devote to it. My plan is just to get Adsense working when I have enough content, and take whatever comes in. I'm wondering if that's what you did, with the result of "virtually no money." I guess what I'm really asking is if it's even worthwhile to try to monetize a blog that won't be in a high traffic niche and that I won't pay a lot of attention to except for regularly writing new content. Any thoughts?
Oh yes! I quickly found out that a blog has to be maintained regularly and produces comments that must be attended to. Monetizing is very tricky and requires a special "knack", such as the one Marissa Wright has. Creating an attractive blog is a lot of work and without the monetization, it is an exercise in futility. Yes, you will get views, but your chances for making money? Not so good.
You are an outstanding writer. Perhaps you should try print publishing? That's a lot of work, too, but if a company publishes your book for you, they do the PR, etc. Getting formally published, however, is not easy. However, you have good credentials already, so use them.
You asked TimeTraveler2, but I'll butt in...
Your question is a really good one. It can look like making money off a blog is almost random, but it's not. It's true, there are elements that are not ultimately in your control (like your organic traffic). But you can figure out if your investment is worth the risk in the first place by using your understanding of economics, AdSense/AdWords, your own capabilities, and your topic.
Put simply, blogs have little chance at making long-term money with AdSense UNLESS they connect a sufficiently spendy and hungry market with a contingency of juicy AdWords advertisers, at levels to support their ongoing advertising budgets.
To predict this, you have to think intuitively, for any blog, "What product might advertisers happen to be promoting on this topic? How much competition would I expect there to be among these advertisers? How likely is it that enough readers of this topic are actively interested in that product at the time of reading to satisfy the advertisers?"
If you are not expecting high traffic, and it is not a very commercial niche, ask yourself if the traffic is at least highly CONVERTING traffic. If you can imagine frequent conversions occurring from your blog (Would YOU convert, for example? Your relatives? Your workmates?) and you think there are enough advertisers out there competing for widgets to drive up their AdWords bids, it's more likely to make you money.
Then you have to ask yourself if you have anything to offer such a potential readership that other existing websites do not. Don't just assume that because your interest is sincere and you write about it well that you'll be the best choice for your readers. See what else is out there. If there's already some good content in that niche, try to figure out if, and how, you can beat it.
And if nothing else is out there that even comes close, meaning you have no real competition, that's not necessarily good news. DON'T expect to make money right away; this may be an earner that takes a while to pay off. That is because you can assume that lack of good existing content on a potentially profitable topic means that advertisers have had no luck finding pages on which to advertise, and they're not using AdWords in any big way. It may take a while for them to catch on. You could keep developing the pages and building a readership, so it stands out when the advertisers find you, with the idea of its paying off in the future. (Though of course AdSense is not the only way to monetize a blog with decent converting traffic.)
So, at this point if it seems viable and you decide to start writing the blog, you must now, ironically, immediately stop thinking foremost of advertisers and products and start thinking of your readers' wants. Content writers often complain they're not the kind to do a hard sell, and the truth is, that's good - they SHOULDN'T do one.
With some topical exceptions, your blog pages should not be sales pages. For most topics, readers don't like it, and they aren't going to share pages blatantly hinting at a purchase in social media. Search engines aren't going to rank your blog well if all it has to offer are commercial opportunities. Now it's all about your reader. The thinking-about-commercial-viability was purely to weigh your risks.
So I've blabbed on a lot, but there's one more thing, because I can just hear some of y'all thinking, "I know for a fact that such-and-such blogger wasn't thinking like this." And that's true; it's possible to succeed at a blog with no weighing of commercial viability. Many now-successful blogs were written without any commercial vision. What happened, though, was that such blogs did happen to land on topics that fit the above criteria - they matched a demand to a supply.
So it does help to think all this through at the outset when you try to predict your own chances of success.
Thanks for the detailed info, Fiction Teller. You've helped me focus. I don't expect my niche to be high traffic, nor do I expect a lot of conversions. The only products I can think of that would naturally fit that niche are books, and I suspect that most visitors interested in books on the subject have already been to Amazon. So, until my blog is getting thousands of views per day (if it ever does) I won't worry about Adsense.
snakesmum - I was in the same boat as you. It took a while but I finally got the hang of it. My main problem was loosing many of the embedded images in my lens. When they converted to hubs, many of the images were lost. Keep at it and don't give up. Here is a link to my successes -
http://jackcleelm.hubpages.com/hub/Goog … f-Hubpages
My hubs are getting great page ranking from google same as they did on Squidoo.
I keep trying to tell people that the best way to get traffic is to ask yourself, when you start a Hub, "What question or statement would someone be typing into Google to find this information?".
If you can't formulate a question or statement, then it's not even worth starting the Hub. If you can formulate it, use it as your Hub title.
This is possibly the best explanation I've ever seen as to why that's so important:
Basically, "What question or statement would someone be typing into Google to find this information?" is the internet writer's equivalent of "Location, location, location" in real estate.
I've been here for about 3 years, and have no complaints at all. I do agree with Marisa. Ask yourself what info people are searching for before you even start a Hub. I used to use the AdWords tool, but now I don't even bother with that.
Why is location important when looking for real estate. Why is location important when buying real estate? What does location, location, location mean in real estate? Think of how you would ask a question when looking for information or to buy something.
Thanks for your contribution.
Can one use google adsense, or amazon links or ebay at wordpress.
What I learned early on at Squidoo was that to really be successful at this game you do need to find an area that you are really interested in, if not kowledgeable already. At least if you have the interest you will then be motivated to learn new things about your niche and that excitement will come through in your writing.
Same with your own site or blog. To make money you need eyeballs and eyeballs come from people like you who are interested in this topic. They search for it on the Net and (hopefully) find you and then it is your responsibility to hold them, encourage them to bookmark and sign up for update emails. And yes, that takes a whole lot of time especially if you have to learn new platforms first.
I am letting my hubs ride at the moment because I have other activities that are time intensive (try getting a cover band off the ground!) but I check in here and other forums to stay in touch with the nice folks that helped me along the way.
One thing we must give the HP leaders credit for is to let us discuss moving hubs to other sites. That at least, is mature and I say "Thanks!"
I have had a ton of success with this method. <link snipped>
I spend a lot of time posting my hubs in different areas, but it has worked well for me. good luck!
Here is what I found works best (not just for HP but any online writing such as a blog): a narrow enough but broad enough topic (i.e. Japan, design, writing), and automation of the marketing. I have found ways to do this through programs I have written and other services such as IFTTT. These have helped to improve marginally. In some cases, it takes time for things to get going.
Hi All, I recently discovered WeekendNotes. Please check out my profile and my article for loads of details about them. They are an Australian company that recruits writers from all over the world to write about activities/cafes/hiking trails/museums etc. in your local area as well as places you've visited elsewhere. They have an impressive array of awards they give on an ongoing basis to help boost your income, and pay at $50.00 by PayPal. I started 1.5 months ago and will soon hit my first pay out! I think they have amazing long-term opportunities.
Most of the times, the questions and complaints regarding views seem to stem from someone stating they make no money on here. Just figured I'd put this out there: if you want to make money as a writer, don't rely solely on Hubpages. I enjoy HubPages, but I also have an account on elance, upwork, peopleperhour (one of my favorites) and a few other sites that I get work from. Granted, I'm not writing on topics that I choose all the time. Sometimes it's boring product descriptions. But I'm also well on my way to making a full time living as a writer. I get up every morning and "go to work." Don't put all of your eggs in one basket, so to speak. Hope that helps out some of the people on here
by Charles T Baumert6 months ago
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