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The Hub Pages Contract

  1. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image94
    TIMETRAVELER2posted 14 months ago

    http://usercontent1.hubimg.com/12644332_f520.jpg
    For those who do not already know this:  when you sign on to write on this site, you are making a legal agreement with HP.  It is up to you to read and understand their Terms of Service, part of which states that they have the right to change those terms as needed.  You, on the other hand, have the right to leave the site if you do not like their terms.

    Newbies who come on board and instantly start whining about the way this site works or how they feel they know more than everybody else here, are just that...whiners.

    We should ALL bear in mind that HP is a business.  It's purpose is to make money.  If we want to have any chance whatsoever of making money also, we need to follow their guidelines (even those we disagree with).

    HP is not perfect, but this is THEIR company.  This gives them the right to choose how they run it.

    They do their best to try and please Google, and so far what they  have been doing is paying off because while may other similar types of sites have faltered, HP is still standing.

    Those who want to come here and randomly write whatever they please should not be disappointed when their articles are unfeatured or do not bring in much money. 

    I repeat.  HP is a business.  If you do not write legibly, correctly and well, spam too much and/or create work that is not going to be well received by the general online public, you are working against yourself as well as everybody here who is trying to do well.  This is both disrespectful and a waste of everybody's time.

    1. wilderness profile image97
      wildernessposted 14 months ago in reply to this

      +1 Well said!

      1. gmwilliams profile image85
        gmwilliamsposted 14 months ago in reply to this

        In total agreement.  Don't writers who sign on to HubPages realize this?  HubPages is a business and it is one of the best writing sites.  When one is a writer, h/she should write in a way that creates a respectful and intelligent readership.  Articles are to be intelligently and logical written in addition to being analytical and impartial.

    2. Perspycacious profile image75
      Perspycaciousposted 14 months ago in reply to this

      If you want to play in the major leagues, learn the rules....no surprises.

    3. MuellerWordsmith profile image85
      MuellerWordsmithposted 14 months ago in reply to this

      Newbies are whiners... good discussion glad I clicked.

      1. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image94
        TIMETRAVELER2posted 14 months ago in reply to this

        Read it again.  I never said newbies are whiners.  I indicated that  those that hop aboard the HP train and immediately start complaining and finding fault before they even give themselves time enough to learn the ropes are whiners who waste everybody's time.

        1. makingamark profile image75
          makingamarkposted 14 months ago in reply to this

          1+

    4. Alternative Prime profile image84
      Alternative Primeposted 14 months ago in reply to this

      TIMETRAVELER2~

      I'm certainly not *Whining*, but I might have chosen a different way to introduce myself to a universe of new members, and that way would not necesarily include criticizing  individuals who may have legitimate questions and or concerns pertaining to a wide variety of subjects ~

      You are not exactly correct in your assertions either TT2 ~ As well intended as a company may be with regard to a "Contract", it is not absolute nor immovable ~ For example, a contract may be written at will to contain whatever an individual or legal entity desires, however, said agreement may be rendered invalid, un-enforceable, void etc.  ~

      Considering the "LEGAL" feel of the conversation, I felt the need to add a few "Attorneyistic" facts to the discussion ~

      1. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image94
        TIMETRAVELER2posted 14 months ago in reply to this

        You missed my point.  Most newbies have good questions and honestly ask for help.  These people accept the answers and make an attempt to improve their skills.  When you assume "all", you are making an incorrect assumption.

        Furthermore, a contract is a contract, no matter how you wish to interpret it.  Yes, by mutual agreement it can be changed, but in the end, it is the person who provides the venue and pays the money who makes the final decision.

        What you are viewing as a criticism is not that at all.  It is information that some here do not seem to understand.  If they did, they would not need me or anybody else to inform them.

        I am always amazed when people read comments based on reality and view them as being negative.  There is nothing negative in anything I said.

        Asking meaningful and thoughtful questions or honestly seeking assistance is not whining.  There is a big difference in those two things.  I was merely pointing them out.

        1. Alternative Prime profile image84
          Alternative Primeposted 14 months ago in reply to this

          TT2 ~ I'm not a republican so I got your point the first time around ~ > smile

          P.S. ~ If you are refering to a "Contract" in legal terms, "Mutual Agreement" is not the only valid way to change, augment, amend, or terminate it ~

          Just FYI ~

          1. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image94
            TIMETRAVELER2posted 14 months ago in reply to this

            Really?  How else can you do these things other than by some sort of force?

            1. Amanda108 profile image91
              Amanda108posted 14 months ago in reply to this

              I don't want to put any words in Alternative Prime's mouth so this is just a quick 'in and out' jump for a non-comprehensive answer to your question about "How else...?" in regards to a contract:

              A contract refers to an agreement between two or more parties, yet has a legal meaning beyond a - for example - promise between two friends. Though a promise can certainly BE a contract. The easiest way to see a quick explanation of the concept of an unenforceable contract would be to google that term as some really quick and to-the-point explanations come up. But factors such as the age and mental capacity of the people signing the contract are one consideration. Like a 5 year old could sign a contract, but that wouldn't mean it holds up in court, obviously. Neither can contracts be in violation of the law; the most extreme yet simple example being that one cannot sign away their life or freedom (ie become a literal slave legally).

              Now obviously none of this applies to Hubpages, but it might be important for people (in general) to know that "a contract is a contract" isn't actually true in any sort of black and white sense and that using "force" has nothing to do with it.

              Oh and contract debate over, I totally agree with this thread you've started. Hubpages is a business, too much whining, etc. :-)

              1. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image94
                TIMETRAVELER2posted 14 months ago in reply to this

                Thanks for this great explanation.  Of course I did not mean to say that contracts, under certain circumstances, cannot be voided or broken.  For my part, I was specifically talking about those who write articles on this site.  Unless any of them meet the definitions you just mentioned, they indeed are bound by the contractual agreement they made when they hopped aboard the HP train.

                I'm quite sure that when the agreement was drawn up, it was carefully crafted by a skilled attorney who knew enough to protect the owners of this site.  So, no matter how much any of us stamp our feet, try to start "movements", complain, etc...we made an agreement and are expected to keep it.

                They DO have the right to change it.  We do not.  Our only right is to take our articles and walk away.

                Personally, I have seen very little here that would make me want to do that.  After all, where else can you find such a user friendly site run by people who listen to writers and seem to be doing the best they can to make things go well for all of us.

                If we want this site to do well, we need to stop criticizing every little thing the team does and start writing to the best of our abilities.  Seems pretty clear to me!

              2. NateB11 profile image91
                NateB11posted 14 months ago in reply to this

                Been awhile since my pre-law days, but I recall that a contract has two elements: An offer and acceptance (of offer). This means even verbal agreements are contracts and are binding. It is true there are various things that make a contract void; if agreed to under duress for instance or if it is "unconscionable" as in when someone is not competent to understand the terms of the agreement.

                1. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image94
                  TIMETRAVELER2posted 14 months ago in reply to this

                  Yes:  The offer is when HP extends the opportunity for people to use this site.  The acceptance is when you sign on as a writer, which should indicate that you understand and agree to the TOS.  If someone does not take the time to read the TOS, they are still expected to follow the rules as long as they continue to write here.  "Ignorance of the law is no excuse!"

                  1. NateB11 profile image91
                    NateB11posted 14 months ago in reply to this

                    Exactly.

                2. Amanda108 profile image91
                  Amanda108posted 14 months ago in reply to this

                  Yes, this is what I was saying - that there are ways a contract can be void, but that nothing in the Hubpages contract has fallen under such a scenario.

              3. Alternative Prime profile image84
                Alternative Primeposted 14 months ago in reply to this

                Amanda108 ~

                Those words you had been apprehensive about attributing to me are acceptable, even though there is much more depth and complexity to the subject ~

                My observation centers on what appears to be TT2's Narcissistically Presumptuous attitude toward his/her opinion of the definition of an "Iron Clad" Contract, or lack thereof ~ Despite how "Carefully Crafted" an individual claims it to be ~ Agreements throughout history have  been Breeched, Broken, Twisted, Toppled, Manipulated, Mashed, Trashed, Augmented, Voided, Un-enforced, Recinded etc by either party ~ Nothing is "IRON CLAD" until tested ~

                I'm not trying to be argumentative with anyone, even TT2, just educational ~

                P.S. ~ I'm not so sure HP Staff would condone your comment regarding a member just packing up his/her articles and "Walking Away" if un-satisfied with this site ~ Seems rather un-appreciative don't you think? ~ Just an observation ~

                1. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image94
                  TIMETRAVELER2posted 14 months ago in reply to this

                  Narcissistically Presumptuous attitude?  Really?

                  Perhaps you would do well to check out your own attitude!  Blatantly insulting and/or verbally attacking another writer on the forums is not only unnecessary, it is also against the TOS.  You can be banned from the forums for doing this...in case you missed that part of our "contract".

                  1. Alternative Prime profile image84
                    Alternative Primeposted 14 months ago in reply to this

                    Everyone should read my comments here ~ I'm baffled, I don't see any "Blatant Attacks" directed at anyone, just observation and perhaps a touch of constructive direction ~ I believe I've been quite Helpful & Educational on this subject ~

                    Legalities of a Contract are indeed quite complex not simplistic by any measure ~ The subject deserves adequate attention and explanation which is what I've attempted to do ~

                2. psycheskinner profile image80
                  psycheskinnerposted 14 months ago in reply to this

                  It is not 'educational' to attribute imagined psychological disorders to other people in the discussion. I think you will find Hub Staff very much do not condone that. Whereas removing one's content and moving whenever you like for whatever reason on is totally condoned and permitted under our Terms of Service.

                  1. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image94
                    TIMETRAVELER2posted 14 months ago in reply to this

                    +1

                3. Amanda108 profile image91
                  Amanda108posted 14 months ago in reply to this

                  Alternative Prime, I'm not entirely sure who you are addressing in your comment. You start off with my name and continue to use the word "you", yet you've made an accusation of something I in no way implied, let alone said. Your comment being: "I'm not so sure HP Staff would condone your comment regarding a member just packing up his/her articles and "Walking Away" if un-satisfied with this site"

                  Anyway, just to be clear the only thing I showed reluctance about was the possibility of speaking for someone else. Something I would never do. Therefore I was simply making it clear at the start of my comment that though I'd jumped into the middle of a specific topic I was not representative of your viewpoint.

                  And while I agree - it's a fact, after all - that there is much "depth and complexity" to the subject of contracts, I did attempt to state up front that I was doing nothing more than providing an example of an explanation at a forum appropriate length: "a quick 'in and out' jump for a non-comprehensive answer."

    5. NateB11 profile image91
      NateB11posted 14 months ago in reply to this

      All very true. At some point a person becomes more economical with time and effort and only publishes what has a chance of getting traffic and so earn money. If I wanted to play with writing I'd just keep a journal at my desk.

      1. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image94
        TIMETRAVELER2posted 14 months ago in reply to this

        +1

  2. makingamark profile image75
    makingamarkposted 14 months ago

    You make a lot of good points smile

    However on one you're a tad misleading. HP might be still standing but the trend on its traffic is a steady decline.

    Similarly the business model does not make it a business per se. It's the content that makes it a business i.e. having a good idea is one thing, translating it into something that works is what really matters.

    Thus I would suggest it's only a business because of the content - and in a way that makes it more of a partnership

    Hence if HubPages wants to continue to be successful I would suggest keeping hubbers happy and wanting to keep their good quality content on HubPages is also absolutely key to doing 'business", being successful and ultimately surviving the changes in the context in which it operates.

    1. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image94
      TIMETRAVELER2posted 14 months ago in reply to this

      I agree that it is important to keep hubbers happy, but only if that means doing so does not damage the site. 

      If a hubber is unhappy because his work becomes unfeatured due to the fact that it is substandard, should the team ignore everything and just let him stay indexed in an effort to keep him happy?  I think not.

      None of us really knows what goes on behind the scenes here or how difficult it is for the team to try to maintain.  It is easy to criticize, but not so easy when it is you who must make the important decisions.

      Even though you say the trend is downward right now, there are still plenty of people here making money and doing well.   This tells me the team is doing something right, even though some writers may not like what they are doing.

      The truth is that the trend will never go back up if HP keeps trying to please everybody.

      1. makingamark profile image75
        makingamarkposted 14 months ago in reply to this

        I'm still making money and get paid every month and I'm still commenting on the decline in traffic which has had a constant trend for a year now.

        I think the real key to the site lies in your last sentence

        The truth is that the trend will never go back up if HP keeps trying to please everybody.

        If you redefine "everybody" i.e. who can write for this site then HubPages could start to make a big difference to its fortunes - and ours.

        To my mind HQ seems to spend far too much effort on tackling content written by people who can't actually write. 

        If they want to provide an education for people who need to develop literacy before they develop better writing skills then I'd suggest setting up a charity and diverting those who would benefit from such an enterprise to that site - and stop dragging this site down.  That way they'd be doing everybody a favour!

        1. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image94
          TIMETRAVELER2posted 14 months ago in reply to this

          +1

  3. littlething profile image81
    littlethingposted 14 months ago

    +1

  4. tillsontitan profile image90
    tillsontitanposted 14 months ago

    Most deals in life are 50-50, some give some take.  HP is like that.  You give a little, they take a little.  They give a little, you take a little.  It is all, however, voluntary.  If you are not satisfied with the way HP is run, as my mother used to say, "there's the door."
    Change is inevitable and it is also inevitable we will not agree with or like every change.  Such is life.  HP is the best place we have to write what we want, when we want, keep in touch with our friends, and if we're lucky make a buck or two.  Following some simple guidelines isn't much of a price to pay for that!

    1. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image94
      TIMETRAVELER2posted 14 months ago in reply to this

      Well said, my friend, well said.

  5. paradigm search profile image81
    paradigm searchposted 14 months ago

    I feel a meme coming on...

  6. psycheskinner profile image80
    psycheskinnerposted 14 months ago

    One nice thing about Hubpages is that they encourage polite discussion about all aspects of the site and quite often make use of our suggestions.  On a previous content site such discussions led me to be banned. Of course it is their business and they decide what happens.  But that does not mean it is not open to discussion.

  7. WryLilt profile image87
    WryLiltposted 14 months ago

    Some newbies are awesome, ready to listen and learn and respectfully disagree (and then sometimes even start an interesting discussion, where even veterans can learn or consider new ideas).

    Then there are the ones who come on board and say "In MY opinion, this, this and this needs to change".

    But for me, the funniest ones are the ones who go with the line, "Hubpages is making money off ME, they should listen to me." Seems the ones who say that are always the ones who have less than 1,000 views - ie probably earned themselves and HP no more than $1 all time. Ah, the irony.

    I had a big dummy spit (for you non-Aussies, that's a temper tantrum) and quit the site because of "Hubpage's shortsightedness" I don't know... 3 years ago? To be fair, they did have one staff member at the time who did make things slightly worse in the member communication department. However I came back to the site after realising that:

    1. Hubpages was still here (unlike many other sites).
    2. Hubpages staff actually DO listen and make changes and happily involve themselves in conversations with members. Much more than almost any other site I've been on.
    3. I now have many of my own sites and know just how hard it is to have a working, small site, let alone the work that would go into a big one!
    4. Hubpages is not the center of the world! It's a great starting off point but you're never going to have your own online writing career JUST writing here. I now use it more for viral once off content, or testing out content before making my own sites. It's free and easy to use, but with that comes being restricted to their rules and guidelines. Which are really good rules and guidelines, but also incentive to have ownership of your own online properties. My main website now gets over 300,000 views/month and I 100% thank Hubpages for all the learning I did about the "rules" of online content and SEO, before I went out and made my own way.

    1. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image94
      TIMETRAVELER2posted 14 months ago in reply to this

      WryLilt:

      I have always said that the education one gets here is priceless, and I mean that.  You are a shining example of this.

      I had written for another site for a year prior to coming here. When I arrived, I had absolutely no clue about how to write online.  Now, while not perfect, my work is so much better and so much more satisfying.

      I'm glad you're back.  We need people like you here who not only are talented but also supportive.

    2. NateB11 profile image91
      NateB11posted 14 months ago in reply to this

      Very well-put. And inspiring, in a true sense.

    3. makingamark profile image75
      makingamarkposted 14 months ago in reply to this

      Well said!

      I too concur that I've certainly seen evidence of HubPages staff reading/listening and making changes based on views expressed by members.

      It's an excellent jumping off point and a place to put and test content which doesn't quite fit anywhere else.

    4. tillsontitan profile image90
      tillsontitanposted 14 months ago in reply to this

      Well said!

  8. DasEngel profile image61
    DasEngelposted 14 months ago

    Since when does Hubpages promote writing short stories and poems?



    Christy Kirwan posted 8 months ago:

    " Good question, suzzycue. As a few other Hubbers have mentioned here, unfortunately, creative writing doesn't usually earn much online. However, it's important to us that HubPages remains a great place for creative writers to share their work with the community and get feedback and advice from fellow writers. And as Writer Fox mentioned, a few are lucky (and skilled) enough to do quite well with search engines.

    And, personally, I think it's important for writers (even exceptional ones) to constantly try new things. It keeps the work fresh and the ideas flowing. smile "

    http://hubpages.com/forum/post/2692804

 
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