I'm always kinda shocked by how aggressive and nasty the forums can get, especially the religion ones. Some people who post here (no names but I bet you know who you are) seem to come here just to rude and aggressive, it doesn't even matter what the topic is.
Do you think people would act this way in the forums if they worked together or lived next door to each other?
I'm thinking no. I'm thinking that feeling anonymous makes people braver about being horrid. What do you think?
depends on the person. religion is highly emotional for many. politics too. I happen to be married into to a VERY outspoken strong feeling "my way is the only right way" family. People absolutely will be just as nastier in person, its even worse then, cuz you actually KNOW them!!
Many people use the anonymous forum to vent and be aggressive. These are the same people who: a. are just mean spirited to begin with, or b. are super timid and meek in reality. I feel bad for them. They come here for the confrontation, rather than to gather other peoples' insights, and/or gleen wisdom.
I agree with this statement. Otherwise people wouldn't need the anonymity(I know I spelled this wrong lol).
I agree that anonymous hubbers are more tend to being horrid in some specific topic in the religious forums.Sometime I see the religious hubs and I find that only a few are posting neutral comments.The rest are posting as per their religious belief and definitely some have very aggressive attitude towards fellow hubbers,while some are trying to belittle their opponents.
I personally think that there are scope of showing compassion to each other while different faiths share their comments in a any religious topic.The verbal aggression reminds me a very small faction of a world population who always fight in the name of religion.I respect all my fellow hubbers no matter how young or old or belief they have and would request them to show more compassion to each other while discuss any topic in religious forums.The bottom line of life is we all humans,belong to the same species,are here only for a while .If we start showing respect and compassion to each other we can start a new tomorrow right here in our own hubpage.
I'm a very outspoken and friendly person, but can get nasty to extreemists and fundamentalists. I can tell it to their face if i have the opportunity to meet them. Asides that, if i lived next door to them, i'd still tell them in the same words. No need to hide under the cover of the forum for me.
There are for now 2 particular members i'd wish to see, to continue where we left off. Even if i have my LEFT HAND CHOPPED OFF!! for being an outspoken infidel(hint hint).
I'm sure we will all agree on that, but i cant mention names unfortunately because i wouldnt want to flout HP laws.
It would at the least greatly reduce the number of people you are talking to, imo. You'd find a thread of twenty or thirthy people down to 5 people supporting their own opinion or being their own pal in 5 other names.
I agree. I am more confident Online than I am in the real world. I think others are too and that leaves a medium open for a lot of snarkiness.
As for the religion forums. I wish people would stop trying to change others' beliefs. It's not going to happen. As an athiest, I don't go around spreading my athiest views unless someone asks me personally what I think. I hate it when religious people feel it is their job to bother me with religious stuff. I think it's a respect thing, you know?
You are right melbel, I never see atheist threads that call the religious fools. It always starts with a religionists throat ramming their belief. The only exception would be the odd satirical one!
I would never try to ram my personal religous beliefs down anyone's throat. I agree with melbel, I'll tell someone what i believe if they ask, but i won't force it on anyone. Whatever your beliefs are, if you can't discuss it without getting rude and nasty, i think that kind of puts a damper on anything you say.
I agree with your last statement. People are a lot less likely to tangle when the object of their ire/wrath/ridicule if stood directly in front of them.
Besides which - if you or I walked up to an individual and came out with half of the dross some folks write, I'm thinking A) you're placing yourself in a very vulnerable position and B) you're down right vile and bad mannered.
It's incredibly easy to be brave from your keyboard.
I think some actually would, jeeez some of the places I have worked in and some of the sarcasm, snide remarks and bullying make the forums look like Disneyworld !
Not me. Where I've worked, etc., the individual(s) I'm thinking of would be opening themselves up to a law suit or firing.
That's the truth. After eight years working the phones in called centers I don't know how anything shocks me anymore.
Nothing shocks me, some of the places I have worked I have seen young girls reduced to tears by bullying bosses. Lita we have unfair dismissal and laws over here but if you take a Company up for bullying then you are seen as a troublemaker when you go to apply for another job. Tis a Catch 22 !
You're right Pam, but HP is still very tame compared with some forums.
It's very easy to be brave behind a mask.
I'm sure that most would be nicer to each other face to face.
And if I may extend your original question.
Would they be nicer if they had to provide and use their true identity (ie Drivers licence, social Security number) to take part?
I think HP would be a ghost town!
@badco - I thought you left? Twice!
Haven't you exceeded your Forum Quota of 10 by at least 17 posts, methinks you should recalculate. I really wouldn't think too much, from reading a lot of your posts it really doesn't suit you !
ignore....... B.C. We are holding on to you forever and forever.
Still 2.7, but thanks for the concern.
You know, you're dead right. I've posted in another thread that I'm thinking of going over to the dark side, so you may not hear much from this userid in future.
Nooooo you know I love you as Eric G, jeeez I learnt a lot from you, and I know it's 2.7 but I was counting from when you posted it.
Besides I actually think I have left at least 5 times, you were prob sleeping for 3 of them. Ignore me Eric, you are one of the sites characters and I like reading your rants, plus yer maths are deff spot on
I'm sorry to hear that, I like real names and faces. But I understand.
I'll still post here with this Id.
But another forum discussion here tonight has made me finally admit to myself what HP is REALLY about. And it's not a little community of friends, which is how I've always regarded it.
So I'll do some sums, create another ID, do some proper keyword research, and maybe fast track a few hundred hubs as a test with various types of monetisation. After all, that's what it's all about isn't it? Maximum number of hubs. And if they provide a reasonable return then I'll get serious about putting hubs up. :-)
@BC - No need to edit anything mate. And you've misunderstood my little tanty about the questions, and the chicken breast example. But it doesn't matter
I like it when people put their actual photos and names up. So many people are all like, whoa, that's so dangerous! Why? I think it's more dangerous to drive to the supermarket.
I agree with both of you. I will say that certain topics will bring out strong opinions either way. During the past election, we had several dinners at my house and got into extreme discussion over the candidates, but because we were all friends, we seemed to accept the degree of negative opinions and not take offense personally.
Even in person I'm blunt..... takes far too much effort to be nice to folks... just say it and be done with it.... can't be a friend to everyone..... this is what I'm... take it or leave it.
You're fine, John Tutor. I've never seen you be rude. Frankness I don't think is what we are talking about here.
My dad was a fundamentalist JW.... that's a separate story...I have certain issues with fundamentalists.... of which I make no bones about.... I'm blunt with them.... I have noticed earnestshub and Mark knowles to be blunt too with fundamentalists.
At least that's honest. It's amazing how hyper-sensitive some supposed adults can be.
From what I've seen, there are only few really rotten apples that spoil the whole batch on the forums. I think they do have aggression issues and probably can't somehow express that in real life--therefore they come to the internet looking for 'victims.' I've got no idea why one in particular has not been banned, but it isn't my judgment call.
No, . They were warned...but I wouldn't mind if they were banned. A first. I'm down with freedom of speech, but this is something else all together.
I know that because I use my real pic, name, and location, I am always aware that people I know in real life could see my comments and writing. So I am careful about what I say and how I act.
I agree that for the most part Hubpages is much tamer than some of the other forums about adsense and affiliate marketing, and I hope it stays that way.
I don't visit the religion or politics forums, because I find the topics personally stressful.
Good point, Pam.
There are several topics that I want to comment on but the attacks are so bad that I avoid it then. Sometimes it is though they are asking for an attack and then it seems that some jump in and get nasty. I have had only one bad post for a forum or hub and they just went after me. I had never done anything to encourage this and had never "met" this person before but they took my hub as personal and went off on me.
Sometimes the old adage of if you can't say something nice don't say anything at all is a good path to follow.
I would regret if I didn't say it..... I would just say it and be done with it.... gotta have a thick skin.
I agree to some degree that you do have to have that thick skin. But at the same time some people have just got to learn what tact and politeness is. You can disagree with someone without insulting them and being nasty. I think Sweetiepie summed it up when she called them trolls.
(You would think that being around my in-laws so much would give my skin the strength of re-enforced steel.)
Oh all those nice qualities.... honestly folks who are very nice sometimes aren't taken seriously.... at least among my circle.... about beliefs everybody is entitled to there beliefs but some folks want others to believe in what they believe in... I'm not very nice to those folks who don't respect others beliefs... they get no respect from me... talk about getting out of the kitchen....Oops.. steel is a good conductor of "kitchen heat"
Rats. Got to rethink that one. How about concrete? Would that keep the in-laws off my back?
Now that is a CONCRETE defense....but hey building a concrete wall of niceties may stop others from attacking you... but the same wall can prevent you from attacking them too... that is if you ever need to.
Naw. I don't need to attack back. I figure that they do very well on their own making fools of themselves. They don't need me. Plus, when you KNOW that your opinion in the right one, there is no need for arguing.
I'm not sure of anything.... especially with regard to beliefs.... each person thinks there opinion is the RIGHT one... I try to see the other POV... Discussion certainly helps...Gosh... we have had unnecessary wars over that one.
I cannot see that they would be any nicer in person than in the forums. I really like the ones who leave comments asking why you are posting about something instead of leaving a normal comment or leaving the thread.
I get comments like that on hubs. Like, "How dare you write this? You are offending me!" And I'm thinking, geez. Like there's nothin' else on the internet to read except Pam? Rilly?
I mean, do you wander around looking for articles to get offended by? I don't, but if I did, I could find WAAAAAY better ones than mine. I mean, this is a medium where you can literally find ANYTHING, and people are still freaking out about, what?
I don't get it.
Yeah, I don't understand why people get offended when you write something small like that. Like I have had someone asking me why I posted something rather than just ignoring it and not responding.
It's the same in real life, people actually go to the Cinema to watch a Movie so they can be offended by it. People actually set their alarm to get up early to go and attend a parade they are offended by. People are just plain weird, jeeez some make me look totally sensible
I guess you are right now that I think of it.
My grandmother used to get obscene phone calls and stay on the phone. She'd blow a whistle into the phone, threaten the caller, try to reason with the caller--We'd all be like, for God's sake gramma just hang up will you? She'd have a new story every week about how "somebody called and said the most horrible things to me for half an hour!"
I have a sister in law, who LOVES to fight, fights mean, goes around picking fights and would be the first person who would say something was offensive, even if she didn't mean it, just so she could argue her point. It is way stressful. I think if someone feels something is inapproriate or whatever, dont read it.
Yeah the hardest thing in writing hubs is that you cannot write anything that is offensive. Well, people can get offended about anything, lol.
Shoot, this comment probably offended a dozen people
Thing that amazes me is why get offended by people online, you don't actually know them. Personally I think the Forums should be here for a laugh and a bit of banter. And if you can't take it then don't give it. Because otherwise the Forum is just going to turn into my friend Eric Gs worst nightmare, a Forum enquiring about whether a chicken has a breast. Hope you don't mind the friend mention there EG, I can re-edit it
Good point. It's not like we know them personally. AND maybe they aren't really as upset as they seem. There are people out there that really really enjoy arguing. That is their hobby.
I dont get offended when people do stuff like that, it is funny to me i guess. I just do not see the point in doing backflips over nothing.
Some forum posters follow those around with opposing viewpoints just so they can argue. However, when questioned they mysteriously cannot answer, and all of a sudden their desire to interact goes away.
I disagree. I think Americans could stand to relearn some manners. Being respectful is not the same as showing approval or agreement.
It isn't necessary to get right up in everybody's face with your own opinions. I mean, if someone asks, fine, they asked. But too often people feel the need to tell you all their crackpot ideas whether you want to hear them or not.
At my last job I worked next to young women who would be recounting all the goriest details of their sex lives and drinking binges after knowing you for all of an hour or so. Um, a little discretion? Why does everyone have to show their ass within five minutes? We're not dogs. I don't wanna sniff all that.
You are right about the manners. I've been told over and over how strict I am with my kids. Yet, they hold the door for other people. They are polite to strangers. I am trying my best to add at least three civilized people to this world that cares only for itself.
Yes I don't think manners are stuffy at all. I'm sorry we use them so little any more. Good on you with your kids. That will help them over the long haul.
OMG!!!!! When I go into town, old ladies go on and on about how "wonderful" my kids are, and "you dont see that much anymore." My friends say I am too strict, and I dont understand how hard it is to have kids. Im "lucky" becuase I have good kids.
"I am trying my best to add at least three civilized people to this world" GOOD FOR YOU!!!!!
Oh, I know, I was just saying 'lol' and sorry for laughing but that was funny.
Most forums you enter are like that though. That is why this is one of the first forums that I have posted in. I usually do not post in forums.
I'm nicer in person. I think posting in the forums allows me to develop my argument better. But speaking in person is probably way more effective. I'm into the waiting for a response thing. I'd rather just have a conversation.
All I can say is that I don't visit the forums a whole lot. I come and look and most of the time it's like "I am not going there" I hope someone would say some of the things I have seen here in person, The might just get a spanking.
Just glancing back at Pam's original entry in this posting - I think most would do the same in person. I'm noticing how argumentative most people are becoming in their day to day lives. They are determined that they are right and no one else is and that you have to agree with them.
I think people do act differently, I guess I do online, because you can be more honest and argumentative here without worrying that you're going to offend a friend or something like that. There's only a few people in 'real life' who I would be completely honest with (in terms of arguments) without worrying that I'm going to offend them. Maybe once friendships have been made and foundations have been set on here, if we were then to meet up we would be no nicer to each other. But in terms of first impressions I think that we would make more of an effort when we start out to be nice to people if we saw each other.
Just a last word from me though on the hubs forums, compared to the bitchiness on some UK Forums this is actually a good place. I find you Americans and Aussies can go with the flow with jokes, jags and sarcasm and take it and give it back wheras the English can't. Anybody American or Australian wanna adopt me ?
Question: How many of you get angry comments on your Hubs? I have had a few that were pretty stealth with being negative and/or condenming but I chose to leave them as approved because they are entitled to an opinion, even if they really did not seem to get the gist of the article. In responding, I always take the polite route in case others read the comments...
I left my only one approved because as you stated they have the right to express their opinion. But they basically could no understand how I could be fooled in my religious beliefs. I did not write an offensive hub. Just my thoughts on a subject. They acted like I called them up and tried to force them to agree with me. I've never visited one of their hubs so why jump on my religious beliefs?
I get more than I expected. I guess I have a strong liberal perspective that comes across in many of my hubs and that seems to draw hate mail from the right. Some of it has been pretty ugly. I've only actually deleted three of four angry comments and that was because they were threatening to other commenters, not me. For the rest I've settled on either ignoring extremely negative posts or politely thanking the posters for commenting but not responding the content.
Once in awhile I take the bait and say something back, but less and less often as it only seems to make matters worse.
LOL Pam, just make peace with it. I don't like raining, too
Freedom of expression is a fine thing when its not rude ,abusive, or mean-spirited.
For every asshole comment Ive read ,there are thankfully 10 nice ones to overshadow the ignorant.
I have been on a couple of other forums and although they can get aggressive they dont tend to hide behind an intellectual facade ,like some do on here.
I like that , say what you want but least have the balls to attack the topic and not the person.
Even some alto ego's are more pleasant its true.
On the opposite side of the coin though Pam , I think in person , I would be less likely to be diplomatic,so maybe Im being fake? , I dunno anymore. Sometimes I dont even care, yet I am a caring person. Contrary ,yep,guilty.
Anyone feel like a nice glass of merlot and chicken nibbles..
I would love a glass of merlot and chicken nibbles! I'll be over in a few minutes!
Does it have to be Merlot, I prefer a good Cabernet Sauvignon and like is it a big glass. As for the chicken can I have a bargain bucket, adds a bit of flavour to the wine.
I am happy if you just have Merlot, and I don't want to offend you but if you are inviting me for a drink ya gotta get the right brand, ya know
And of course you are contrary, yer a woman !
contrary ,hey thats maybe the thing , hormones are the hallrunners in HB ,and for guys maybe tis low estroegen,why didnt I see that before now..
Ohhh so the Captain has a sweet tooth!! and fine taste.
Cabernet Sav ,ok great New Zealand has some of the best (they use King Of The Grapes)so they will always been the expensive ,bloody typical,but never let it be said I am a stingy host.....
Im drawing the line at the chicken order though ,your wine longs for roast lamb ,even steak.
But what the hell after the first glass, we can attack Candie's cake and it viola..break out some motown
I know that I wouldn't be any different in person. But then again, I'm a Type A Irish-Catholic female. Translated: The in-your-face trifecta!
Most of the people I've met on here have been incredibly nice, kind, very smart and easy-going. They have fun debating, and love to trade barbs and jokes without malice. Then there are the psychotics who believe it is their job in life to change your mind over to the way they think. Those fanatics tend to go overboard, and I believe they would be the same in person. But truthfully, I've met less of them on here than I've met in real life!
I write on the forums how I would talk to other's in real life. That being said, I'm assertive, outgoing and a bit sarcastic at times offline and here on hubpages. No different for me.
I've met some very difficult and rude people in life, but I find it hard to believe that many on hubpages would talk to others in real-life like they do on here! I hope not!!! LOL
I am truly fascinated on a daily basis as to what people say on here...I have never taken part in an online forum before.
Craziness! But, it's so interesting to read that I can't stay away.
You will probably find it hard to believe that in reality I am actually a sarky git as well. To be honest I would have no hestitation in saying anything I type in person and have done.
On the minus side, I am on my own and I have no friends, maybe that old saying is true, best keeping yer gob shut
However, I have never seen you write anything overly cruel or mean. You are just an honest guy, and we like your style . There are some here on the forums that claim to be caring, but they are constantly following those around who do not agree with them.
I would never be cruel or mean but at times I can't help but be sarcastic, just black humoured. I do find though that a lot on here take things just a bit too seriously and I used to myself but if you just lighten up a bit the Hubs Forums can yet again become the fun place it used to be.
What annoys me a lot recently is the so called intellectuals who try and make some members look stupid. In many ways I find that demeaning and actually just as cruel as being mean, but hey that's just my view.
I would say the same things in real life that I say here, however they may be said differently, because in life you have body language to speak with. On-line, you have only words, and written, they don't always mean the same as when they are spoken.
That my friend is the problem even sending an email, sometimes the written word doesn't come across the same as talking and the body language and sometimes a sarcastic witty throw away comment can be mistaken as being rude or an attack on the person. The written word also can have so many different meanings, jeeez no wonder the forums can be a minefield
I try to be nice, and give people a chance. Then when I see that they are going to continue being a troll, I get nasty back. If they can get away with it, then so can I.
People can also be downright rude and cruel in real life too- ever been to a place called "high school"?
Definitely, things can be taken the wrong way online, and I find that's why smileys are sometimes called for to actually let the person know, "just kidding, don't kill me!" That's what they're there for, right?
From a mod's standpoint, this is a toughie. I have the rare opportunity (burden?) of listening to both sides of any dispute, and it's not always as clear-cut as one might think. There's very, very rarely just one person at fault.
There are couple of problems, as I see it:
One, of course, is the anonymity. There are no immediate repercussions or consequences to actions online, as there are in the real world. Another issue is that it's very, very easy to type something and hit "post" before thinking things all the way through. It's also extremely easy to misinterpret things in print, knowing nothing of the tone in which they were meant or the person who typed 'em.
Rise above. If someone's bugging you, don't retaliate. This makes "fault" much, much easier for me to determine. If someone is "trolling" or participating in personal attacks, you're shooting yourself in the foot by engaging with them. I'm more likely to ban 'em if it's very obvious who's out of line, which, when you sink to their level, becomes less clear.
Definitely, people would be nicer if they had to deal with each other in person. The internet, with its anonymity, breeds discourtesy and disrespect like nothing else in the history of man.
Now, if a man was talking to a guy from Spain or Turkey the way he does online, he'd get beat down in a heart-beat. That fear of immediate reprival is what keeps us in check.
People discard manners when they have nothing to fear. You see this in the "social blackmail" of kids intentionally being loud/ bad in public places (stores & restaurants). They know that mom's not going to spank them in public, so they act out more they would if they were in the privacy of home. The quiet kids are more likely found with the more quick-handed moms that care less about public opinion of their back-handed slaps. (You are still allowed to spank and slap children, by the way. As a cop, I've stood by and watched parents spank their kids -- just to make sure it did not get out of hand--- usually after I gave the parent a ticket for the kid's misuse of 911.)
The same goes for adults. People will be much more polite around the guy that looks like he'll explode, or the big huge behemoth, than they will with the little pip-squeek geek. Think about it, and you'll know it to be true.
Like a few months ago, I was in this long service line at Walmart. Ahead of me was this extremely loud and obnoxious female, dressed and looking like a man as she spouted some very unpatriotic comments, blaming our presence in the mid-East for her long wait. An older gent ahead of her politely asked that she dtop that kind of talk, and when she challenged him about her rights to free speech, he quietly countered that --- as a Korean War vet --- he knew her rights better than she did, and that he had the right to be free from her loud mouth. (Yes, your right to speech ends at the next guy's ears, and refusal to oblige his request for you to stop is legally harassment thereafter.) For whatever reason, the tom-girl thing thought she had the right to lay hand on this old man, and suddenly a walking cane became a weapon.... you'll bet that the man-thing and all of the witnesses there will certainly think twice before they are loud and disrespectful before an old cane-bearer again. (I personally thanked the old guy for his sevices rendered. in years past and that day).
Unfortunately, that's what it takes. There has to be a fear of pain or reprisal somehow before people will act right. That means that they have to fear that you will either hurt them or their wallet or their property or their precious time schedule before they will act the way they should.
Man is NOT inherently good, people. It says so in the Bible, that same book that says the Devil walks the Earth. "There is a Devil; there is no doubt. But, is he trying to get in us, or trying to get out."
mor_man, your remarks: "Unfortunately, that's what it takes. There has to be a fear of pain or reprisal somehow before people will act right. That means that they have to fear that you will either hurt them or their wallet or their property or their precious time schedule before they will act the way they should.
Man is NOT inherently good, people. It says so in the Bible, that same book that says the Devil walks the Earth. "There is a Devil; there is no doubt. But, is he trying to get in us, or trying to get out." "
I really disagree with this - all of it. The world is full of people who "act right" just because they're decent people. They aren't worried about being hurt or being assessed fees or having their property harmed. They're just good, nice, people - and there are plenty, plenty, of them.
I also disagree with the idea that man is not inherently good. Children are born innocent, and they aren't "evil" when they get past being babies and start to do a few things they shouldn't do. They're just immature and have to become mature. If they're raised with love and kindness and told right from wrong, they grow up to be kind, decent, people who "act right". It's people who are damaged as children who won't "act right" as adults and/or who believe the only way any person will ever act right is to be intimidated into it.
It is generally well known that people online do feel freer to make rude remarks and act hostile, but they're probably jerks in offline life; and they are probably the people who either mouth off at WalMart (or wherever) too. Online gives people more opportunity to interact with other people, so that could account for some bad online behavior.
If you look through the forum here (and have enough of a sense of humor to overlook some of the "wisecracks" that are aimed more at being funny than hostile; the vast majority of people on here are friendly and supportive to others. (The religion and politics forums get heated, but that's the nature of the subjects. People there give as good as they get.) If you look on the other forums, though, the vast majority are kind and supportive and don't make rotten remarks. Some of the kindness shown on here has absolutely nothing to do with anyone being afraid of anything happening if they aren't nice. People just want to be supportive and kind (or at least neutral).
If you're on the police force, I'm guessing maybe you've been exposed to a few too many creeps and criminals and not enough "regular people", and your outlook has been colored by that. From my viewpoint (and experience, which doesn't include exposure to criminals and punks), I've seen that the kindest and most polite people tend to come from homes where there was no hitting and yelling, and where parents helped children see the goodness in others and respect them for it.
I am pretty new to hubpages and was pretty surprised to how i got shot down in a matter of minutes after i did my first forum entry. Shocked me ! You get some nasty people here.
Good post, Lisa.
Rynaldos... It has gotten much worse than only a few months ago on the forums. A few different reasons, I think. Not everyone is like that, however...and you also have to realize some writers like sarcastic/witty humor. Some of that is not intended to be nasty.
Rynaldos, I've seen what you mean. I've seen some new people on here and some of the wisecrack answers they get, and wondered if that's enough to make them just go away and never come back. As Lita said, a lot of times there are people who attempt to make "witty" remarks but who may seem rude to those who don't know them. Even with that, though, the vast majority of posts (outside politics and religion, of course) are either neutral or nice.
I do understand the difference between witty and just plain rudeness. However, i have come across some very nice people here. I guess this is all part of the game. I will see it as in itiation?
I think it's more that you were unlucky enough to have had your threads spotted by one of the few "meanies" (who should just be overlooked). Being active in the community will help you in a few different ways, so don't be driven away by a few people who may have had a bad day.
I have been told that I remain the same online as off. In your face if I disagree about having something force fed, and easy going if you don't.
hehehe i hope so...
but with those who got involved with fierce debate about evolution they would certainly snub each other and i hope they wont get involve with fistfight nyahahaha....
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