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Fair Use, Quality Hubs and Personal Quality Control Checkers

  1. 0
    Iðunnposted 8 years ago

    I would appreciate if Staff would tell me whether GamerGirl and Whitney, both of whom have chosen to crawl through all my output (output which staff courteously restored after I had totally deleted it on my sabbatical) and repetitively downthumb and flag me, have been assigned by staff as my "personal bloodhounds".  Do I need to run every single Hub I dare to make by them now, or what?  Are there more hubbers I am supposed to answer to as well?

    If they have been given this assignment, do I get people to chase around too?  Also, could you explain "fair use" policy regarding news to them so staff won't have to keep going in approving my legitimate work.

    Additionally, are they poetry expert critics as well? Should I be running all my output by them including attached photos and themes, even wording, to see if every Hub I write meets with their approval?  And I'd like to know the other names and IP locations of the bunch that consistently makes sure all my Hubs have to slog through multiple downthumbs and flags to even get read, from first publication on.

    Is the "aha, I caught you!!!" part of the deal or can I request more courteous insults with slightly less "glee"?

    Thanks in advance!


    P.S. almost forgot!  they have informed me they personally are allowed to decide when I run adsense etc.  Would Staff prefer if I use no ads at all, or did Hubpages actually want revenue off my work.  I was rather under the impression you guys were thrilled I finally was.  I don't care much either way, other than knowing how they got this cushy assignment and what Staff wishes me to do regarding ads.

    1. Whitney05 profile image69
      Whitney05posted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Sorry, but although, I'm slightly flattered you think I'm chasing you around HubPages, I don't. I don't think I've even seen one of your hubs until that thread (no offense). I didn't even know that you were doing this until that thread was started. At that point, I wanted to see what she was talking about. And, I'm sorry, but I agree with her.

      1. jimmythejock profile image81
        jimmythejockposted 8 years ago in reply to this


        Sorry, but although, I'm slightly flattered you think I'm chasing you around HubPages, I don't. I don't think I've even seen one of your hubs until that thread (no offense). I didn't even know that you were doing this until that thread was started. At that point, I wanted to see what she was talking about. And, I'm sorry, but I agree with her.  /quote](Oh, and I didn't thumbdown your hubs... Not the 2 I flagged...)

        if you hadnt heard of her hubs or read them until the forum thread then how could you flag them considering gamergirl never named names.....jimmy

        1. 0
          simcoposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          Dam you got in before me Jimmy....... I'm just not quick enough....... wink

  2. jimmythejock profile image81
    jimmythejockposted 8 years ago

    If this is true, then I am absolutely disgusted, Iðunn your hubs are a great read , original, witty, well thought out and presented.
    your poetry speaks of love heartbreak and frozen sparrowz, you are always there with a comment of support for our hubs and in the forums.
    you are a great inspiration in the hubpages community and well respected by many.
    Adsense or any other of the affiliate programs are personal choice you can either decide to run them in your hubs or not to and if you do run ads who am I to say that you can't.
    if it is a fellow hubber, or fellow hubbers, then the flag options should be removed from them or ignored as i think Paul said in a previous forum thread some thumbs down clicks are ignored by the system.
    whether through jealousy or just wanting to reduce a persons hubscore to try and increase their own, flagging and down rating hubs that are legit is completeley and utterly wrong and the people who partake in such actions should be banned.....jimmy

  3. 0
    Iðunnposted 8 years ago

    Thank you, jimmy. 

    I was beginning to think I was the only revolutionary in the bunch who would stand up for someone who is being mobbed off of Hubs.

    In my ideal world, the proletariat would all be decent people.  They would read the Hubs they enjoy, upthumb the ones they like and avoid the Hubbers they are disinterested in or do not like.  This is what I choose to do.

    However, I do not live in an ideal world.  I cannot speculate why some people make the choices they do to hound and harass other Hubbers, and I sincerely doubt I'm the only one on the receiving end of this "treatment", but I would appreciate it greatly if someone on Staff would tell them to STOP.

  4. 0
    Iðunnposted 8 years ago

    Posted 20 hours ago
    270 posts
    Joined: 4 months ago
    Hubs: 35
    Fans: 106
    Awesome! That's what I thought.


    I'm sorry, darlin', but when the vast majority of a hub is copied from another site, it's still considered duplicate content.

    If you wanted to share news with other Hubbers, you could post the links on the forum.. but by trying to make money off of the writing of others you're doing something wrong.  Heck, I wouldn't flag news hubs if they had ads set to zero.

    259 posts
    Joined: 7 months ago
    Hubs: 140
    Fans: 206
    It's still flag material from what I gathered from another thread I asked on. I found another hubber copying- word for word- material from varius sites. Still posting the links to the sites, as though they were sources, but I'm sorry, it's still a duplicate and against the rules...


  5. 0
    Iðunnposted 8 years ago

    "Your Hub Gerry Adams: Statement on 26 Mar 2007 Meeting was cleared of any duplicate content penalty by the administrator[?]
    4 days agoYour Hub leonard cohen: the future was cleared of any duplicate content penalty by the administrator[?] 4 days agoYour Hub N Ireland bomb threat forces evacuation was cleared of any duplicate content penalty by the administrator[?] 4 days agoYour Hub 3 doors down - kryptonite was cleared of any duplicate content penalty by the administrator[?] 4 days agoYour Hub hips dont lie - shakira was cleared of any duplicate content penalty by the administrator[?] 4 days agoYour Hub the cranberries: zombie was cleared of any duplicate content penalty by the administrator[?] 3 weeks agoYour Hub Country Joe and the Fish: I Feel Like was cleared of any duplicate content penalty by the administrator[?] 4 weeks agoYour Hub Documentary - The Corporation was cleared of any duplicate content penalty by the administrator[?] 4 weeks agoYour Hub RuhRoh: Its the world Socialist Revolution, yo was cleared of any duplicate content penalty by the administrator"

    Wow, she took the trouble to go all the way back to the Gerry Adams statement on the success of the peace process.  That's some serious effort!   Go Gamergirl!!!!!

    Oh, wait...  AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    1. Misha profile image75
      Mishaposted 8 years ago in reply to this


      Thanks for chiming in with clarification. I too tend to think it is just an awful build up of coincidece and misunderstanding.

      I do have some things unclear, still. Look at that quote from Idunn:

      Does your explanation imply that all that duplicate content penalties were triggered by automated dupe content checker? Not by humans flagging those hubs?


      1. 0
        Iðunnposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        That would be more believeable if it weren't actually stated in print under others's names that they had actually flagged them because it was AWESOME.  I would suppose some just catch the filter, others are turned in. wink

      2. Jason Menayan profile image61
        Jason Menayanposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        That is correct.

        The override is manual.

  6. Misha profile image75
    Mishaposted 8 years ago

    Well, since it grew out of the thread I took active part in, I guess I have to take sides here.

    Original question there was "Is the hub consisting solely of copied and pasted news article considered a duplicate content?"

    And my answer was - Yes. And it is still - yes, when we are talking about *single* article. Idunn hubs never have single article, they have several bits of several articles, and in this case the answer is - No, it is not a duplicate content from search engine point of view. I leave the question of plagiarism to those who understand it - I don't.

    So, in short - I'm with Idunn on this, and I am extremely disappointed. I only hope this is a mistake, but considering info given in this thread, mistake is a really remote possibility sad

    1. Peter M. Lopez profile image91
      Peter M. Lopezposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      I hope so too. Yikes.

    2. robie2 profile image93
      robie2posted 8 years ago in reply to this

      I'm in full agreement with Misha on this. Idunn's hubs are a passionate, creative use of news articles to make a particular point--interspersed with her original content. I'm always interested in them and they've gotten lots of thumbs ups from me. I  give a thumbs up only to what I really think deserves it and have given only a few thumbs down votes to hubs I thought were deceptive,carelessly thought out or badly executed. I might well thumbs up a hub whose content I disagreed with but which I thought was well done. There are many hubs I don't read just because I'm not all that interested in the subject matter--we all have different tastes and that is the strength of this online community.

        I think the hubpages staff is the final authority on this issue and they seem to think Idunn's hubs do not violate the terms of service. I would venture to say that they probably also take a dim view of people flagging hubs indiscrminately for competitive or personal reasons. I'm new to this community and like it very much. Let's hear from the administration on this and get it resolved so we can all get back to hubbing.

  7. 0
    Iðunnposted 8 years ago

    thank you.

    what everyone needs to get is when they are through with me, and I'm not all that hard to terrorize away since I come and go anyway, what happens when they take off after the next Hubber and then the next one and the next one they just "don't like".  how many people have they chased off before in a big pack?  and is that good for Hubpages as a business?

    this isn't a message board run by a 25 yr old absentee generation Xer.  this is a business.  this sort of thing should be stopped in it's tracks.  there should be no place here for mobbing or harassment of this or that hubber by other packs of immature or disturbed hubbers.

    I stood up for Jerrico before over this issue and I'll be damned if I won't stand up for my own self now.  I am going to treat myself with the same respect I would treat any of my friends or even victimized strangers.  If I can stand up for them, I can stand up for me.


  8. 0
    Iðunnposted 8 years ago

    Misha, on a side note - maybe this is what I am supposed to learn.

  9. Misha profile image75
    Mishaposted 8 years ago

    very possible smile

  10. Jason Menayan profile image61
    Jason Menayanposted 8 years ago

    All -

    If you have a legitimate, well-substantiated issue with other users, please contact us. We truly are exceptionally busy these days, so we can't promise to drop everything to look into your case, but we will try to help you.

    In some cases, accusations turn out to be false (hey, we've seen it happen several times already, far more often than you'd expect) so please be careful in assigning blame publicly.

    - Jason

  11. 0
    Iðunnposted 8 years ago

    Staff, thank you for your prompt attention.  I hope you (and everyone) realizes I was in no way implicating Staff itself of having anything to do with the situation. 

    In future, I shall register my questions and complaints personally, however I do have to say that the anonymity key is what makes small groups so powerful online so I was trying to remove that cover of anonymity.  To me, it felt important.

    If Staff felt accused, then I certainly wish to rectify that here.  In no way shape or form do I believe Staff actually assigned these women to me nor did I think anyone would read it that way, neither do I feel Staff were aware of the problem, which is why I brought it to their attention.

  12. 0
    Iðunnposted 8 years ago

    thank you to those who took the time and energy to bother to check in.  staff and I are resolving the issue in correspondence.

  13. Whitney05 profile image69
    Whitney05posted 8 years ago

    Oh, and I didn't thumbdown your hubs... Not the 2 I flagged...

  14. 0
    Iðunnposted 8 years ago

    you just said you don't flag my hubs.  make up your mind.

    and look up "fair use"

    you got your public row.  are you happy?

  15. Whitney05 profile image69
    Whitney05posted 8 years ago

    They were implied in the thread in question. Iðunn basically sold himself/herself out. So, I went to look.

  16. 0
    Iðunnposted 8 years ago

    yeah, I sold myself out as the 'great evil' that I am.  roll

    look, if gamer had just flagged them, as it appears to me she usually does, how would I even know?  she made it public, she wanted it public.  you seemed to want it public.  now it's public.

    so I ask you again, are you happy with your results?

  17. 60
    broalexposted 8 years ago

    Well I will not pronounce names , but the "Thumb Downs" are practiced , I am convinced. And those that do this disgusting stuff should be penalized. They know who they are ! lol It is a forum an I don`t think I am allowed to give out names and make them dirty ,  but people should stop lying around Hubpages and we should be a community not ... "X" and "X" have the best hubs and the others just don`t know anything about hubbing. And one more thing I own blogs that are way better than the ones  I have seen being promoted here so stop showing off those who dare to put a worthless blog on their profiles. Everyone has a word to say and I don`t think we should critic so much , and thumbing down hubbers and crawling their hubs should be stopped and the managing team should get those users banned. And iounn I am pretty convinced a lot of hubs have copied content as I have done a little bit or search on the mains engines big_smile And please consider this "Copied hubs can have a low hub score" , but some of them can be successful 100  hubscore , it`s matter of how you promote it. But lets just not bother with  these people that are saying they are here for writing , they copy paste a lot of content , and of course as many of us know they are only for the money. Anyways I dont think so far there are people that earn more than 500$ a month from here , and trust me there are ways to make 500$ easily doing freelance work and even 1000$ or more , so let`s be happy and not try to thumb down other people`s hubs or trying to show off around here .. sad It`s not the way to do it .. we ... all hubbers get traffic , our articles are read worldwide , not only by hubpages users !

    All the best and lets all try to maintain a nice and pleasant place to come back , "Hubpages" , every time we do it.

    1. 0
      simcoposted 8 years ago in reply to this


      C'mon people this is a place of help and support not a place of spoilt brats who do not give a damn for anyone.
      Let the hubPages moderators deal with this problem,if indeed there is a problem.
      Whitney05 said.."I did not want it public" deerrrhh I think in that case you have chosen the wrong medium,ie,any forum not just Hubpages.

      So please people if you have a problem with an article go direct to the HubPages owners,do not wash your dirty laundry in public......!!!!!

  18. Whitney05 profile image69
    Whitney05posted 8 years ago

    I did not want it public. Like I said I didnt' even know until she had that thread. I just think that it's wrong. People get into big trouble when they write business write-ups and grad papers for copying and pasting (and still citing the sources), so I don't think that it's any different when doing it online.

    I'm sorry that I've upset you, but please do believe me when I say that for what I can remember I've never flagged your hubs. I wouldn't flag poetry anyway, as I write prose.

  19. 0
    Iðunnposted 8 years ago

    I'm willing to try the fresh start, whitney and label it a misunderstanding if you are willing to understand that I don't like being attacked publicly.   if you do feel an urge to flag or downthumb my hubs, and you might, do it privately and don't make a thread about it.  shall that work?

    can we make a deal here?

    1. Whitney05 profile image69
      Whitney05posted 8 years ago in reply to this

      It's a deal. I didn't make a thread about this. I just commented on one that was already made.

      I didn't go to the forum first. Yes, I did comment, but I didn't bring it to the public. It was already brought to the public.

      If it hadn't been brought to the public, I wouldn't have said anything becauseI wouldn't have known about it.

      "The greatest bloggers have never copied content" Note said. Ha.
      Also, it's not copying on the internet, it's copying in general that I don't agree with. Plus, copying on hubpages is against the rules.

      Selling lies and plagerizing are different concepts.

      1. 0
        simcoposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        I accept that however there are ways of making a point and perhaps this was not the correct way. However we all have our own opinions and as I said earlier do not wash your dirty laundry in public, you can have an opinion as i do but it does not make that opinion  correct.

  20. 60
    broalexposted 8 years ago

    Whitney I enjoy reading a lot of your hubs "When I do Have Time" , but no one should be threating other members here.

    "People get into big trouble when they write business write-ups and grad papers for copying and pasting". I will comment this one a bit , greatest bloggers have never copied content , well this is not illegal trust me I don`t think there are any strict rules on not copying content online , as long as you rewrite the article , but that`s not what I wanted to say. Greatest bloggers and money making book publishers got to sell their "Garbage" to a lot of people because they knew how to promote it the right way and maybe pushed some money into some god knows who`s pockets. I don`t like giving out names but I some real information about great bloggers that haven`t done anything than just selling lies. Agree with me on that?

    Check out "The rich jerk" .. what do you guys think of him? I might be wrong but these people.... and I hate saying this phrase "Make money telling others how to do it the easy way" , but they don`t know how to make money themselves (Not all of them). One true blogger bought a house from 6 months of blogging .. "Do you think you are not able to do it" ... "My answer is yes everyone can do it if he enjoys what he`s doing. Read stuff about Google`s founders  they have never complained of being tired in all these years... we all have a chance trust me tongue

    I love all hubs on Hubpages! But only read what interests me! That`s the difference. Sorry if I upset anyone here with this very message I don`t like to critic as I do critic myself enough roll , always want to improve my work big_smile

    All the best!

  21. 0
    Iðunnposted 8 years ago

    I don't lie and I don't plagarzie.  You really do need to look up "fair use" policies regarding news.  Moreso, the vast majority of my Hubs are unpoetry so I don't really see how I could "plagarize" that, and bunches of others are stupid Fads I made up as I went, drano, frozen sparrowz, ie, so I kind of miss the "lying" and "plagarizing" on that bit too.  News is news.  I put it up, in the standard accepted way, for discussion by the interested.  That isn't "lying" or "plagarizing" either. 

    However, that said, I'm glad you and I made a deal.  Let's start fresh, then.

  22. 60
    broalexposted 8 years ago

    pla·gia·riz·ing big_smile pls

  23. 0
    Iðunnposted 8 years ago

    grammar nazi :p  hehe

  24. Whitney05 profile image69
    Whitney05posted 8 years ago

    simco. like I said, although I did make a comment about the issue I did not publicize it first. I feel as though you are condeming me for something that I didn't do. I feel that publicizing is making something known to the public, and I just commented on something that was already made known.

    Iðunn- I wasn't accusing you of lying. I was making a comment towards what broalex said. I did  not mean to accuse you of that.

    Maybe the rules of news is different, but in general, in a formal paper, it wouldn't fly. And, being copyied from another site, although, yes, a news article, I still feel (not just you but anyone who does it) is going against the hub rules. Unless, I am misinterpretting the rules.

    I have asked in another thread previously, if copying from other sites and pasting the link counted as duplicate, and it seeemed most people agreed, but I do not know what the team thinks of it.

  25. Ralph Deeds profile image70
    Ralph Deedsposted 8 years ago

    Here's an article on fair use from this morning's NYT. Not everybody agrees on what it means.

    A Tight Grip Can Choke Creativity
    Published: February 9, 2008
    On Friday, a lawyer named Anthony Falzone filed his side’s first big brief in the case of Warner Bros. Entertainment and J. K. Rowling v. RDR Books. Mr. Falzone is employed by Stanford Law School, where he heads up the Fair Use Project, which was founded several years ago by Lawrence Lessig, perhaps the law school’s best-known professor. Mr. Falzone and the other lawyers at the Fair Use Project are siding with the defendant, RDR Books, a small book publisher based in Muskegon, Mich. As you can see from the titans who have brought the suit, RDR Books needs all the legal firepower it can muster.

    The author J. K. Rowling is suing to stop publication of a Harry Potter companion book.
    As you can probably also see, the case revolves around Harry Potter. J. K. Rowling, of course, is the creator of the Harry Potter series — “one of the most successful writers the world has ever known,” crowed Neil Blair of the Christopher Little Literary Agency, which represents her. Warner Brothers holds the license to the Harry Potter movies. Of the two plaintiffs, though, Ms. Rowling appears to be the one driving the litigation.

    “I feel as though my name and my works have been hijacked, against my wishes, for the personal gain and profit of others and diverted from the charities I intended to benefit,” she said in a declaration to the court.

    And what perfidious act of “hijacking” has RDR Books committed? It planned to publish a book by Steven Vander Ark, who maintains a fansite called the Harry Potter Lexicon. The Lexicon publishes Harry Potter essays, finds Harry Potter mistakes, explains Harry Potter terminology, devises Harry Potter timelines and does a thousand other things aimed at people who can’t get enough Harry Potter. It’s a Harry Potter encyclopedia for obsessive fans.

    So long as the Lexicon was a free Web site, Ms. Rowling looked kindly upon it. But when Mr. Vander Ark tried to publish part of the Lexicon in book form — and (shudder!) to make a profit — Ms. Rowling put her foot down. She claims that she wants to publish her own encyclopedia someday and donate the proceeds to charity — and a competing book by Mr. Vander Ark would hurt the prospects for her own work.

    But more than that, she is essentially claiming that the decision to publish — or even to allow — a Harry Potter encyclopedia is hers alone, since after all, the characters in her books came out of her head. They are her intellectual property. And in her view, no one else can use them without her permission.

    “There have been a huge number of companion books that have been published,” Mr. Blair said. “Ninety-nine percent have come to speak to us. In every case they have made changes to ensure compliance. They fall in line.” But, he added: “These guys refused to contact us. They refused to answer any questions. They refused to show us any details.”

    They fall in line. There, in that one sentence, lies the reason Mr. Falzone and his colleagues have agreed to help represent RDR Books. And it’s why Mr. Lessig decided to start the Fair Use Project in the first place.

    It’s an odd twist that this dispute centers around a book, because ever since the recording industry first sued Napster, most of the big legal battles over copyright have centered on the Internet. The lawsuit Viacom filed against YouTube last year to prevent people from posting snippets of Viacom’s copyrighted television shows is the most obvious recent example.

    But if you look a little further back, you’ll see that for a long time now, copyright holders have made a series of concerted efforts to extend copyright protection and make it an ever-more powerful instrument of control.

    More than a century ago, copyrights lasted for 14 years — and could be extended another 14 if the copyright holder petitioned for an extension. Today, corporate copyrights last for 95 years, while individuals retain copyrights for 70 years after their deaths. The most recent extension of copyright, passed by Congress in 1998, was nicknamed the Mickey Mouse Protection Act, because Disney’s lobbyists were intent on keeping Mickey Mouse from falling into the public domain — and on preserving billions in profits for Disney.

    At the same time, though, copyright holders have tried to impose rules on the rest of us — through threats and litigation — that were never intended to be part of copyright law. They sue to prevent rappers from taking samples of copyrighted songs to create their own music. Authors’ estates try to deprive scholars of their ability to reprint parts of books or articles because they disapprove of the scholar’s point of view. Mr. Lessig likes to cite a recent, absurd case where a mother posted a video of her baby dancing to Prince’s song “Let’s Go Crazy” on YouTube — and Universal Music promptly demanded that YouTube remove the video because it violated the copyright. Have these efforts had — as we like to say in the news business — a chilling effect? You bet they have.

    About a decade ago, Mr. Lessig decided to fight back. His core belief is that copyright protection, as he put it to me, “was meant to foster creativity, not to stifle it” — yet that is how it is now being used. He fought the Mickey Mouse Preservation Act all the way to the Supreme Court (he lost). He founded Creative Commons, which is, in a sense, an alternative form of copyright, allowing creators to grant far more rights to others than the traditional copyright system. And he started the Fair Use Project to push back against copyright hogs like J. K. Rowling.

    No one is saying that anyone can simply steal the work of others. But the law absolutely allows anyone to create something new based on someone else’s art. This is something the Internet has made dramatically easier — which is part of the reason we’re all so much more aware of copyright than we used to be. But it has long been true for writers, filmmakers and other artists. That’s what “fair use” means.

    And that is what is being forgotten as copyright holders try to tighten their grip. Documentary-film makers feel this particularly acutely. My friend Alex Gibney, who directed the recent film “Taxi to the Dark Side,” about torture, tried to get Fox to license him a short clip from the television series “24” to illustrate a point one of his talking heads was making about how the show glamorized torture. Fox denied his request. Mr. Gibney, a fair-use absolutist, used it anyway — but many filmmakers would have backed away.

    Which is also why the Harry Potter Lexicon case is so important. For decades, fair use has been thought to extend to the publication of companion books that build on the oeuvre of someone else — so long as the new work isn’t simply a rehash of the original. There are dozens of companion books to the Narnia chronicles, for instance, and the works of J. R. R. Tolkien.

    What Ms. Rowling is saying, however, is that her control of Harry Potter is so all-encompassing that only she gets to decide the terms under which a companion book is allowable. She can talk all she wants about charities that will be deprived if she loses this case, but this is really a power grab. RDR Books should not have to “fall into line” to publish the Lexicon. Ms. Rowling is claiming a right that, if granted, will hurt us all.

    And in a roundabout way, that gets us back to what the Internet has wrought. For, as Mr. Lessig points out, anybody who owns a computer can now create content that is based on someone else’s creation. Indeed, we do all the time, by posting content on Facebook, on YouTube, everywhere on the Internet. If the creation of that content is deemed to be a violation of copyright, “then we have a whole generation of criminals,” said Mr. Lessig — which is terribly corrosive to society. But if it is fair use, as it ought to be, then it becomes something quite healthy — new forms of free expression and creativity.

    As it happens, Mr. Lessig made those last remarks in a lecture at Stanford last week. It was a kind of swan song, for he is leaving the field of copyright to tackle a new challenge: he will try to build a grass-roots movement to reduce the influence of money in politics. When I asked him if he was making this change because he was discouraged about the state of copyright, he sounded surprised by the question.

    “I’m absolutely convinced now that this battle will be won on the right side,” he said. “I think there are now a lot of current leaders who can take the movement forward. When I started in this field, there were very few.”

    I suspect he’s right, though it is likely to be a long struggle — which will involve a lot more legal cases like Warner Bros. Entertainment and J. K. Rowling v. RDR Books. And a lot of attitudes will need to change as well, starting with Ms. Rowling’s.

    During my conversation with her representative, Mr. Blair, he pointed me to Ms. Rowling’s Web site, suggesting that would be the best place to find her response to the RDR Books case and the Harry Potter Lexicon. “You have our permission to quote from her Web site,” he said.

    I already have that right, Mr. Blair. But thanks anyway.

  26. 0
    Iðunnposted 8 years ago

    no worries, m8.   I just wanted to clarify.  fact is, I greatly prefer positive happy environments and this is how little of a control freak I am - I have offered Staff to unpublish and just go away, if they believe I am the source of all this negativity.  I am waiting for input from Staff to make my choice.

    I can choose to go away, but I will not choose to allow people to publicly attack me without response (and I'm referring to gamer here).  After I'm gone, if I go, she may tear me up to her heart's content because what I don't see can't annoy me - what I don't see doesn't require a response.

    Whitney, I do recognize (now) that all you did was add comment, and I am willing to believe you sincerely believed you were correct.  As a past MsDebate for 4 years running on an old message board, I have a pretty idea of what constitutes 'fair use', so clearly you and I just disagree here. 

    To this point on past Hubs, Staff seems to concur with my view.  I also informed Staff to let me know if they felt I took too much from this or that article, on my return, so it is not that I have some strong desire to "steal" someone else's work and as to getting paid for it.  You will never in your life meet a less material person than myself. 

    If it makes Gamer happy for me not to run adsense, I could go with that, however unfair, but the issue is bigger than that.  What happens when she decides that for other people too?  What if it's you next time? 

    I certainly hope for pleasant exchanges on the offchance we cross each other's paths again.

  27. 0
    Iðunnposted 8 years ago

    thank you, ralph, for the good read. 

    generally what I do is what every blogger in the world does.  take two or three paragraphs of a long article, link to the original and add some personal commentary. 

    I daresay there would a lot of empty blogs and message boards and and a HUGE new class  of 'criminals' would that procedure be deemed illegal.  I don't hardly see how you can get someone to discuss what they can't even get a peek at to read.  you'd be surprised how many never get past the blurbs I quote to even read the link and are seemingly satisfied with the parts I choose to quote.  this makes for some interesting slants sometimes, completely dependent on the bits I choose to offer to the public, and I might do that on purpose because I'm aware of that phenomenon, as a bit of mini-propaganda.  :p

    1. Lissie profile image86
      Lissieposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      I think maybe that we have a bit of a generation thing - I've never heard of or read a blog that does this, but I dont read politics or news and  I recall that blogging started in those topics.  Maybe its something that started in that way and then developed.  To me I would 9 times out of 10 expect the commentary to be longer than the quote - be it a blog or an academic paper - but that's just my 2c worth.

  28. chantelg4 profile image79
    chantelg4posted 8 years ago

    I've been reading along this thread and boy it's dramatic, but in a good way.  I think it's important to stand up for yourself.  As far as duplicate content, that's a tough one, copyright has never been my strongest point, so I usually just write my own stuff. 

    However, personally, I don't think your pages deserve any red flags.  You quote your sources, reference them and add your thoughts to it.  I think that's perfectly legit.  It was when I attended University, and they take plagiarism seriously.  I think your pages reflect your taste and those with similar likes will really enjoy having all that info on one page.

    I respect all hubbers who work hard in regards to creating fantastic hubs.  I would not be able to keep up with all the news articles you read ( and to narrow them all down to boot!), so good work, and remember, you can't change or control the people around but you do have control on your thoughts and emotions. I know that's a bit cheesy, but it works for me! LOL!

  29. Inspirepub profile image87
    Inspirepubposted 8 years ago

    As someone who has been a University lecturer, I can assure you, Whitney, that quoting with attribution in university papers is a completely acceptable practice, in fact, an expected practice.

    Those who "get into trouble" over it are penalised because their entire paper is a jigsaw of quotes, with no evidence that they have understood what is in the quotes or applied any intellect to developing on the thought, integrating it with other writers on the topic, or understanding the basis of any disagreement between the writers.

    University papers are expected to show evidence of understanding the issues at first year level, and progress to the level of unique individual contribution to the advancement of academic knowledge by the PhD level.

    Newspaper articles are not held to such high standards. There is merely an expectation of objectivity and balance, an expectation which is only sporadically met by the mainstream media, in my observation.

    Opinion pieces are exempt from the expectation of even this minimum level of rigor. For an opinion piece, it is sufficient to quote something, and then go on to say "I think this bloke has a stick up his %*$# and should be lynched."

    Hub Pages are entitled to be opinion pieces, although quality Hubs steer clear of the more florid forms of expression!

    News, in particular, is published to be discussed, and correct attribution is the only pre-requisite for quoting it.

    The issue of duplicate content arises when someone makes a Hub which quotes only from one source, quotes a lot of it, and doesn't add anything of their own to it.

    It's good to have discussions like this in the forums, so that the Team can make HubPages' position clear, and hopefully situations like this won't arise in the future.

    I hope it's sorted out now, Iðunn, and you can get on with Hubbing in peace.


    1. Whitney05 profile image69
      Whitney05posted 8 years ago in reply to this

      When I refer to papers and such, it's on the premises that the entire paper is a jigsaw of copy and pasted paragraphs from various sources. I know that with any high school teacher or college professor would turn me in for plagerizing if I were to do something like that.

      I'm not saying that it's illegal to copy and paste someone else's work online, but I don't think it's fair or right. To me I do think that it is against the duplication policies as nothing of your own is submitted, just paragraphs from other sources cut and paste. Jenny, this is what we are talking about in this particular case. From what I read everything was cut and past from outside sources and nothing was contributed. Now I may be wrong, but I believe I only saw, at most one or two sentences added in each of the hubs, and that isn't really adding an opinion, in my books.

      I do agree that a large quote with a similarly large opinion piece of your own, would slightly change the situation, but that is not exactly the case here or in a few other places I've seen on the site.

      Now, please don't take me wrong, I'm not trying to stir anything else up here, as there's obviously a good deal of friction and different opinions. I'm just stating mine.

  30. 0
    Iðunnposted 8 years ago

    thank you both.  you know, I look big and bad on the outside, but the truth is I'm just as human as anyone else.

    being attacked for no reason upsets and depresses me, and I've spent a lifetime being walked on by people because I wouldn't stand up for myself even when I'm right. 

    I'm trying very hard to do this right and I apologize if I haven't achieved that properly, but I'm just an average person and I'm doing the best I can. 

    I appreciate everyone who added input on the concept of the fair use policy and yes, jenny, in college we were required to source our information, if nothing else, in bibliographys.  this is the way I was taught and this is the way message boards run in my experience.

    I very much thank you both for your clarifications and support.

    Chantel, you too, thank you for the emotional support.  I have a stress disorder and can get overwhelmed at times.  Your kind words helped.

  31. Misha profile image75
    Mishaposted 8 years ago

    You are standing pretty good so far. Reasonable, but firm smile

  32. 0
    Iðunnposted 8 years ago

    I wish it wasn't about combat.  I'll be upset for days now because I detest conflict and avoid it to the utmost of my ability.  I didn't want to "win" anything.  I didn't want to fight at all.

    I admit to resenting being put in the position where I have to choose to fight or hate myself for letting me get walked on again.

    I wish people could just be decent.

  33. gamergirl profile image60
    gamergirlposted 8 years ago

    I am not going to sink into another forum argument, I've been dipping into being mean at counterpunch again and I told myself I wasn't going to do these things.

    I marked (if memory serves, I've slept since then) three of your hubs as duplicate content, because your hubs consisted of two or three paragraphs quoted from a news article, then perhaps a sentence or a short paragraph of your own content. 

    I believe I've only thumbs downed one of your 'news hubs,' and that was because it had very very little in the way of original content.

    Now, as for anything else having been said, insults toward me and the like, I will resort to the same answer I've decided upon in regard to the one CP and I clashed in:

    big_smile big_smile big_smile big_smile big_smile big_smile big_smile big_smile big_smile

  34. 0
    treseroposted 8 years ago

    You are completely and utterly wrong regarding plagiarism. It CAN NOT be plagiarized if it is cited, period. A piss-poor job, not worthy of reading, yes. A failing grade for not showing knowledge of facts and understanding of the subject, yes. Plagiarism, absolutely not.

    Plagiarism is an academic offense which has serious consequences, (i.e. termination, loss of tenure, dismissal from school, and etc.) and should not be bandied about lightly.

    I won't comment on the usefulness of the articles in question, but plagiarism is not an issue.

    Oh, my credentials, I am a university professor wink

    1. 0
      Iðunnposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Thank you.  I'm not trying to pass your class, and you made my point exquisitely.  I actually quite enjoyed this post. smile

    2. jaymz profile image80
      jaymzposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      I don't think she's wrong. It is plagiarism if there's NO other content other than what you've copied. I'm not sure what kind of professor you are, but I've never met one that would accept this as being acceptable. I do agree that it would term a failing grade, given an academic offense, etc. But, it is not right, and is still consider plagiarism by any means.

      Jason, so with the hubs in question that started all of this- the hubber would need to write more in order to get the penatly removed? But, as is, it's considered poor hubbing and a duplicate?

      1. Ralph Deeds profile image70
        Ralph Deedsposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        Why don't you try looking up plagiarism in the dictionary before weighing in on the subject and displaying your ignorance? Tesoro was correct. Whitney didn't even know how to spell the work, let alone define it.

      2. darkside profile image83
        darksideposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        So if you handed in say, a ten page assignment and it contained 3 full pages of material that was copied word for word from Wikipedia or an actual reputable source, then are you saying that it would slip through, even if it were noticed?

        1. darkside profile image83
          darksideposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          Now having read the rest of the thread...

          If a hub was made and it contained snippets from other sites AND had source links, then it would not be plagiarism. Add to that some personal opinion, commentary or indepth analysis and it could turn into quite an interesting hub.

          It may trip the duplicate filter, but there is a difference between duplication and plagiarism. Which has come up before. And I think that thread went awry too.

          It was said in that other thread that ALL duplication is plagiarism. However a person can purchase a PLR article and publish it, and it is not plagiarism. But it will be duplicate material, if others have purchased the same and published it online. This may have nothing to do with this thread, but I think it's important to realise that that there is a difference.

          And my apologies to Jaymz for not understanding the entire context in which he had made the statement that I quoted. And I don't mean his complete post, but this whole thread.

          1. jaymz profile image80
            jaymzposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            I was speaking more in terms of a paper versus a hub or online content. But, with the question you posed, I would say that yes part of that paper was plagiarized.

            I do agree that by copying and puting into quotes or something even a paragraph of info then throwing in agreements and/or disagreements to the comments in the paragraph would lead to something rher interesting to read versus just something found elsewhere.

            And, yes it is different if one had the permission of another to use the content, whether that is by purchasing the content or just by saying "Yes, you can use my article."

            Oh, and I have nothing to say to Ralph, as a error is human nature. A misspelling is human nature. You shouldn't judge on that alone. You shouldn't assume that one has NO clue what they're talking about because of a typo. Get over yourself.

            1. Ralph Deeds profile image70
              Ralph Deedsposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              Whitney misspelled plagiarism. Both Whitney and you misused the word by equating plagiarism with duplication. You apparently still don't understand the difference. As I suggested, why don't you look the word up in a good dictionary or on Wikipedia, read the definition carefully and think about it for a couple of days. I wouldn't have mentioned Whitney's misspelling if she had used the word correctly.

              1. Whitney05 profile image69
                Whitney05posted 8 years ago in reply to this

                Actually, I was not confusing plagiarism and duplication. I was speaking in terms of a paper not a hub. I was referring to in a paper the duplication (copy and paste without any original content) that we see online would not be allowed and would suffer academic penalty and a failing grade. So, I do know what I'm talking about.

                By the way, by definition plagiarism is "a piece of writing that has been copied from someone else and is presented as being your own work."

                In an academic paper, it takes proper citations and original content added around and thoroughly through the paper to avoid the accusation of plagiarism.

                I agree with you. Copy and paste word-for-word without adding original content is just not your own and a waste of time to republish and read. Personal, opinion, so PLEASE people don't say I'm wrong with my opinion, as opinions can't be wrong when in context to personal ethics and whatnot.

                But, in anysense. I give up with this entire matter...

                1. anime_nanet profile image60
                  anime_nanetposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                  Only citations needed if you do a bibliographical revision of a subject. In a scientific investigation work, for instance, you are almost shot if you put your opinion. The only part where you can be mildly creative and most of all original is in the showing / discussion of results and on your conclusion.

      3. Marisa Wright profile image94
        Marisa Wrightposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        OK, so it's not plagiarism to copy an article so long as you cite it, even if you add nothing yourself.  However, it IS making an attempt to profit from someone else's work without contributing any effort of your own, and that's clearly wrong.  So we either need another word to describe it, or we accept that the word plagiarism has a slightly different meaning on the internet.

        I haven't seen the Hubs in question, and I'm not going to look, because then I'll have to express an opinion and I don't want to take sides with either Iounn or Gamergirl - I like them both too much. 

        In general, though, I confess I'm a little uncomfortable with "mash-ups", which are simply compilations of news stories from different sources about one newsworthy event.  I'm happier if they use only short excerpts then provide the links to the full stories, because then you're actually encouraging traffic to the original sites.  How could they complain about that? 

        If whole articles are used, then I'm with Lissie - the commentary should be longer than the cut-and-pasted sections, otherwise it's too close to the bone for me.

    3. LdsNana-AskMormon profile image91
      LdsNana-AskMormonposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      I believe that I can say thank you to your post.

      1. Marisa Wright profile image94
        Marisa Wrightposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        Kathyrn, if what you're trying to say is that this proves your point, I think you're missing the point.

        Your Hubs are not being flagged for plagiarism.  They are being flagged for duplicate content.  That means a large chunk of the content on your Hubs is duplicated elsewhere on the net.

        Now, that may be a religious text or some other item that you can't change, but HubPages can't help that.  It's still duplicate content, and you can't publish it. 

        If you need to refer to that text in your Hubs, why not put in a link to another site that has it, instead of quoting it?   If doing that means you don't have a Hub left, then you need to rethink the topic.

        1. pauldeeds profile image
          pauldeedsposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          Actually, you can publish it.   The HubScore will be lower on that hub, and if a lot of your hubs are duplicated then your Hubber score will also suffer.  We prefer, and choose to reward original content, but we don't expressly prohibit duplicated content.

          Copyright infringement is another matter and we will remove content that is in violation, as long as the copyright holder follows the proper reporting procedure.

        2. Kenny Wordsmith profile image84
          Kenny Wordsmithposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          Quite right. I did a hub on a painting, and to put the scene in context, took a chunk out of the Gospel of Mark. I got a low score and a red warning and was asked to resubmit.
          I removed the chunk, substituted a link for it and resubmitted my hub. And lo! the hub's score shot back to the score I was used to seeing. smile

  35. Betty Jo Petty profile image60
    Betty Jo Pettyposted 8 years ago

    I have no credentials, but I might as well add an opinion, after reading most all of this 'stuff'.

    My daughter, whom is a well-educated college Freshman, did mention something about having to be more specific on the internet about naming sources, etc.

    On another site I have written on (and on and on, sorry), the requirement for naming another author is to put it in the article, or footnotes.

    I, myself, prefer using my own words mostly.  I am not a great writer.  I do love Poetry.

    All beside the point here.

    I really did miss where all this started from, and regret that, so I don't have enough information.

    I apologize to all of you for that.

    As I have stated before:  we are all writers.  Some of us are adults.  I don't know about the minimum age on Hub Pages, as I am plenty old enough.

    It would be nice if we could cooperate, and hope for the betterment of mankind, and for the future of writing. 

    As for as I know, if you name your source, it is not stealing. 

    In retail, you can add one change to a product, and put your name on it.  At least, this is my knowledge of years ago.  I could be wrong.  I see no difference.

    Thanks for all the good reading, anyways.  Betty Jo

  36. 0
    Iðunnposted 8 years ago

    I think we have maybe a bit of a faked death fat girl thing.  Did it piss ya off I caught her?  You buds with her?

    I think we also have a case of selective reading.  Now this one below includes a bloody shakespearean sonnet ON SUBJECT I personally wrote.  How about you write us one, maybe a nice piece on Jackilyn or Jaelyn or Joslyn or Joshalyn or Jadalyn or whoever's next fake death. Now if you look underneath what you might find is a 20 paragraph freaking ESSAY written by moi that covers the attached news.  Also collected, related news and Bible quotes that quite literally took me hours to put together.

    Now sometime I do that and sometimes I don't.  This is not my J O B.  I am not trying to pass a course, however, if I were, I'd get that A since I graduated that 3.8 Magna cum Laude.   I am not being paid enough to take two weeks to write an essay for each Hub and it's a whole lot of none of your business.

    You have just been told that it's pretty nasty to go around accusing people of plagarizing, yet you seem to have a learning problem and return to repeat it.  Do you need a tutor?  $20 a hour and I'll see if I can help you with conceptual thought processes and/or minding your own business.

    http://hubpages.com/hub/homelessness_in … espearean7

    homelessness in america - a shakespearean sonnet in iambic pentameter77
    By Iðunn

    target audience
    this will doubtlessly appeal to the vast sonnet-loving population in America who are also Catholic socialists. wink


    Bush-lined streets
    these Bush-lined streets have now become a home
    for elderly, disabled, kids and more
    the disenfranchised now are less alone
    soon joined by those who come back from the war
    new millions of americans despair
    while other millions claim to be devout
    no nests or dens will GOPers share
    but grab a profit while they kick men out
    they say a hammer used to be a tool
    to build the homes where sons of men can rest
    but now men use those hammers as a rule
    to crucify their neighbor and their guests
    ...they make sure all their neighbors go without
    ...and if their soul offends, they pluck it out

    Matthew 8

    http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?bo … version=31

    18When Jesus saw the crowd around him, he gave orders to cross to the other side of the lake. 19Then a teacher of the law came to him and said, "Teacher, I will follow you wherever you go." 20Jesus replied, "Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head."

    Gap widens for minimum wage, rent
    http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/artic … bz05a.html

    The annual report "Out of Reach" by the National Low Income Housing Coalition found, as in the past, that there is no place in the country where a worker at a full-time job at the $5.15-an-hour federal minimum wage can afford an apartment.


    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/09/ … 2185.shtml

    AP) The cost of rent and utilities for a typical two-bedroom apartment has increased more than a third since 1999, making such housing unaffordable for anyone earning minimum wage, according to a study by an advocacy group for low-income housing.

    A worker must earn at least $15.21 an hour to afford the average cost of $791 per month and have enough left for food and other necessities, the Washington-based National Low Income Housing Coalition said Monday. Five years ago the average cost for housing and utilities was $576.


    U.S. housing costs up, while real wages decline


    More and more working people in the United States are unable to meet basic living costs, according to two recently published studies. The reports highlight the increasing grind on working people as rent, medical insurance, food, and child-care costs increase, while real wages-that is, the purchasing power of workers' pay-have declined.

    Washington's Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) sets "affordable" rent at equal to or less than 30 percent of a renter's income. According to a study published in December, a worker today would need to earn $15.37 an hour in order to afford the average two-bedroom apartment in the United States.

    The report, published by the National Low Income Housing Coalition, says that in only four out of the 3,066 U.S. counties can a worker making minimum wage afford a one-bedroom apartment by the federal government's standards. In the 991 counties where 80 percent of the nation's 36 million renter households are concentrated, a worker making the state's minimum wage would need to work an average of 80 hours a week in order to afford the rent on the average two-bedroom apartment....

    Homeless in America

    Poor People's Economic Human Rights Campaign
    The Poor People's Economic Human Rights Campaign is committed to uniting the poor across color lines as the leadership base for a broad movement to abolish poverty. We work to accomplish this through advancing economic human rights as named in the Un
    Homelessness in America: The Unmet Need to Belong
    outstanding photo essay of homelessness in america
    photo by Gerald L. Campbell - Cincinnati Searching the Dumpster (link provided above)

    The Housing Bubble
    I used to think I was rather good at math, but clearly I'm as dumb as a rock. I don't understand the new math as it applies to housing and wages in the current U.S. economy.

    I live in a small rural town in Texas where average wages for workers is approximately $7 an hour. Obviously business owners, college professors and so forth make more, but most people are just folks who work on assembly lines, or are waittresses, hairdressers, work at video rental shops and stuff like that... ordinary jobs.

    Rent in this city has doubled over the last 3 years from $350-$450 for pretty much run-down housing, common low-status apartments, to about $600 a month - while wages have remained stagnant.

    Here's what I want to know.

    If an average worker in this town has an after tax income that is less than rent at a 600 sq ft house with holes in the floor and termite-eaten windows, then how are they supposed to live?

    I'm too stupid to understand how they do it.

    See, I remember an America where a low-paying job provided rent and bills and food on whatever lowly scale. I remember single families living in single family housing. Either my memory is incredibly flawed or things have changed. If my memory is flawed and the lower working class was always like this, why did anyone ever think America was so great, because to me this is very third-worldish to have large groups of Americans working at even a few dollars over minimum wage not earn enough to even pay rent.

    What I see now are groups of disparate (and desperate) people bunched up in clumps in housing. I see apartments in Ft. Worth that accept credit cards to pay rent. Why should anyone working 40 hours a week have to pay rent on credit? Am I the only person that finds this, at best, alarming??

    People having to use 90% of their income to pay rent is not good for the economy. In the 'old days', people could pay rent, bills and food. If one got raises (which existed and were relatively substantial) from staying at the same job (which was possible), they could spend their extra income eating out, going to movies, buying clothes, getting haircuts and so forth. In other words, they spent that money in the economy and this kept small and large businesses healthy.

    Now we all know that many big (multinational) corportations now get at least 50% of their sales from overseas, so they don't really care a lot whether the American working man can purchase their products. Sales of products isn't really how they produce income anyway... it's all mergers and investments and other forms of gambling and playing with the stock market. When these people do well, it looks like the American economy is thriving. But it's not. Not for most Americans, who are rapidly losing ground.

    And who is this "other" America. You have small businessmen who can't outsource their restaurants, hair shops, video stores, bars and so forth. If the average person is less and less able to spend money on un-outsourceable goods and services, these people are in some serious trouble.

    And who is profitting from this? The people who have turned housing in the U.S. into some sort of Ponzi scheme and the extraneous property owners who say "well, if this is the common market price for rent now, I should raise mine".

    If wages have to rise so that workers can pay rent, then the small business owners take another big hit in order to sustain property owner's greed.

    If they don't rise, what's next? Tent cities? Hobo camps? Prison for profit (and that hits the ordinary tax-payer too)? Where do you put these people who work 40 hours a week and can't live anywhere? What happens when small businesses that depend on the disposable income of the average American fail? Will they too take a job that doesn't enable them to pay rent? Then what? Jail them too for being homeless?

    Who's left? A few property owners in a Ponzi scheme? What happens when the scheme tops out and disintegrates with no real income or money to back it up?

    You Republicans who are good at the new math explain to me how any of this is good for America, Americans, and how the average person in my town is supposed to support themselves.


    Ponzi schemes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme

    Now technically, the housing bubble isn't a Ponzi scheme, but the difference is neglible in effect. From the source:

    A bubble. A bubble relies on suspension of disbelief and an expectation of large profits. But it's not the same as a Ponzi scheme. A bubble involves ever-rising (and unsustainable) prices in an open market (be that shares of a stock, housing prices, the price of tulip bulbs, or anything else). As long as buyers are willing to pay ever-increasing prices, sellers can get out with a profit. And there doesn't need to be a schemer behind a bubble. (In fact, a bubble can arise without any fraud at all - for example, housing prices in a local market that rise sharply but eventually drop sharply because of overbuilding.)

    The only reason anyone can even buy houses at these prices is because of ARM and other unrealistic credit practices that REQUIRE the immediate sale of acquired property. This cannot last. This will not last.

    Some commentary from an article on the housing bubble:


    Nickname: Neil

    Review: The median price of homes sold in December 2005 dropped by $75,000 as compared to November, 2005. Houses in this county lost about 12% of their value in one month! In the San Francisco Bay area, the median house declined by $25,000 in the same period. These are facts, the housing bubble will be much more destructive than the .com bubble/bust/crash. Recently, the Santa Barbara Realtor's Association stated that they will no longer make their housing sales reports available to the media. If that doesn't raise a few eyebrows, you guys need to get a catscan. Recently, the 5-year treasurey notes had higher interest rates than the 10-year bonds. This is called inversion and has preceded all of the past recessions and is one of the most reliable indicators there is. And to top it all off GDP fell off last quarter--the most since the last recession. Welcome to the Great Depression Part 2. Date reviewed: Jan 31, 2006 2:49 PM

    Nickname: Sven

    Review: What is disturbing? I am no economist or financial expert. All I know is how home prices affect me. I live in Ventura County, CA where the median price of a home is just north of $600,000. The median household income is right around $63,000 (lot of LA and SB commuters). I am a divorced single father of two and I make around $55,000 a year (subtract health insurance costs), just shy of the median income. I am a professional and would figure I might be able to afford a condo or townhouse. Yeah right! I can't even afford a two bedroom apartment. LOL. I am barely able to afford a studio! So I dare ask the question, who the heck is buying these homes and how in the world can they afford them? Date reviewed: Dec 2, 2005 7:23 PM

    Nickname: Jonstreiker

    Review: House prices should be in lockstep with incomes generated from anything other than the housing industry. Companies have--and plan to continue--to reduce expenses from labor. Home prices have only been propped up by new, jack-easy credit practices and unreasonably low interest rates. Today's "creative" loans are simply ways of getting out of real-world, loan payback. Balances don't come down fast enough. Individual & investor swapping frenzies are money in a circle. It will come when real-world payback (mostly in the form of first-time buyers with an income other than the housing & mortgage industry) would have to happen. And, today's (and tomorrow's) free enterprise corporations have NO intentions of "creating jobs" to be nice. Real money to fund the overprice housing scene does not and will not exist. Prices will have to come down. Investors & stretched buyers will fall into foreclosure. Values will plummet. America will see deflation. Date reviewed: Aug 2, 2005 6:08 AM

    Nickname: Steve B

    Review: The housing bubble is about to pop soon, and the effects on us all will be gigantic. This bubble is worldwide. Some places in the US have gone completely insane. In Silicon Valley, people have never recovered all their jobs after the dot-com bubble burst, but housing prices have just approached an all-time high. In Los Angeles, I have friends that are spending over half a million dollars for houses in bad neighborhoods that they have to be ashamed of. Who will pay for all of these houses when 10% of our jobs are outsourced, and many retirees sell off their 4-bedroom house because they do not need all four bedrooms anymore now that their children have grown up. Where is the next generation that can afford over half a million dollars for a simple house? The next generation is getting their jobs outsourced!! No one will be there to pay for overpriced housing!!! Date reviewed: Jul 18, 2005 7:36 PM

    Republicans, you explain to me how "Sven" the programmer is a low life scum who just isn't working hard enough or smart enough to make it when obviously anyone can in this "thriving" U.S. economy under Bush.

    NLIHC: Out of Reach, 2005
    Despite the emphasis on homeownership and the marginalization of renters, renter households still make up fully one-third of the households in the United States – nearly 36 million households. Out of Reach is a side-by-side comparison of wages and re
    I caught this last week on CNN
    Dobbs: Fighting?back in the war on the middle class - CNN.com
    "War on the Middle Class" is the title of my new book and our special report on CNN. Wednesday we broadcast live from the front lines of this all-out war, and we talked to American families facing the tough issues that are all but being ig
    This Documentary was brilliant as well
    August In The Empire State - Billionaires For Bush [2006]
    August in the Empire State is a film about division and defiance at the 2004 Republican National Convention. Following three outspoken individuals, the film captures the climate of conflict, confusion and confrontation that gripped New York City in t
    On the Lighter Side
    Below are a couple of good links for poetry structure. smile

    Dummies - Writing a Sonnet
    clear concise instructions
    lyric poetry: Information from Answers.com
    lyric poetry Lyric poetry is a form of poetry that does not attempt to tell a story, as do epic poetry and dramatic poetry , but is of a more personal...
    RSS for comments on this Hub

    Status: Approved
    Drax  says:
    16 months ago

    The people that appear to be living well have been using the equity in their homes to fund that lifestyle, as this bubble/Ponzi scheme heads south looks like a lot of people are going to have to follow. This is sad since is appears to me the Government is effectively stealing the money off the poor in terms of the manipulation of the CPI, this has a twofold 'benefit'...
    1. the Govt pays less to those most in need
    2. it makes the economy look good to anyone who cannot read or count over 5.
    Status: Approved
    Iðunn  says:
    16 months ago

    :p ok, so I couldn't resist the politics, even if I had to write a sonnet to sneak it in. : )

    I admit I'm quite pleased with myself. ahem, friend.... I worked GOP into a Shakespearean sonnet. hahaha!

    I couldn't resist including a classic spabbian rant, as well. I consider ranting an artform generally, but you are correct that it's a situation that really has my attention - I'm glad you read the data.
    Status: Approved
    NightFlower  says:
    16 months ago

    I'm not a fan of politics but it is certainly hard to ignore. I do however appreciate the activist role as usually it is in behalf of the underdog lying under the grinding wheel of politics. You do have a way with your portrayal of it and I love that.
    Status: Approved
    Iðunn  says:
    16 months ago

    I'd say under the grinding wheel of greedy people who use politics to create inequity. :p

    The difference is more than semantical or grammatical, it's philosophical and spiritual.

    I would love to have no interest in politics but unfortunately politics keeps having an interest in me by rearing it's ugly head to bite me or people I care about in hundreds of ways.

    I suppose my point is that all people have value and that their value isn't determined by assets and income. : )

    Status: Approved
    Iðunn  says:
    16 months ago

    the huge rant in the middle on the housing bubble is more my typical fare, btw. *blush*
    Status: Approved
    irishdreamer  says:
    16 months ago

    A great page. I am studying low pay in the USA and it is very sad to see people who work so hard in places like Wal-mart paid so little
    Status: Approved
    Iðunn  says:
    16 months ago

    thank you. I agree completely. I know most people think the U.S. is a land of opportunity, but that was then under different leadership.

    Income mobility has diminished completely and the poverty rate has risen and continues to, especially for children.

    many americans are marked to spend the only chance they get at life in prison because the GOP has created "prisons for profit" and use the "tough on crime" stance to load people into them for some nice dividends.

    it's almost like ireland is going forward that way and the U.S. is going backwards. sad
    Status: Approved
    Madame Sosostris  says:
    15 months ago

    O, hopefully this heartrending and devastating trend will end soon, although I am less confident than I'd like to be. People do not realise the magnitude of the damage caused by Bush outside the war in Iraq, and bless you for keeping us informed and accountable.


    Madame S.
    Status: Approved
    Iðunn  says:
    15 months ago

    thank you for reading, madame~
    Status: Approved
    Simon  says:
    13 months ago

    Supply and demand. Zoning laws and housing regulations mean it is far more expensive to build a house because the land is scarce.
    Status: Approved
    Iðunn  says:
    13 months ago

    I'd have to respectfully disagree in that the cost of housing is based on far more than scarcity of land and supply and demand, however I'm delighted you took the time to both read and comment.  : )
    Status: Approved
    Coral  says:
    11 months ago

    A heartbreaking sonnet with a twist of the  knife at the end. 




    Status: Approved
    Ralph Deeds  says:
    9 months ago

    Nice job! Very clever.
    Status: Approved
    Iðunn  says:
    9 months ago

    lol :p

    the stupid thing is with the hub format change, all my spaces disappeared in my various hubs and eventually I have to go back and put them all back in one by one.  every time I look at one of the hubs with no spaces my heart sinks a little.   

    Now the interesting thing about my news hubs is that they aren't set out as a "here it all is thing".  They are set out as a medium for discussion and lo and behold, people come and discuss it with me and a lot of the personal commentary goes on in comments.  This is how it's done on message boards.  We don't write essays that SAY IT ALL.  We put something up, they say something, you come back, they do , you agree, they bring up something new, etc etc etc.

    Somebody must get the point:  this one has 89 Comments. 
    http://hubpages.com/hub/The-D-Word-fina … -the-media

    Now I'm sorry your little whacko friend got caught faking her own death and I'm sorry that upset you, but frankly that is no excuse to accuse me of plagarizing, slag me around the boards and downthumb my stuff.  Grow up.  Her too.  That faking her own death stuff is annoying and has been old for years.

    blurp blurp blurp

  37. Misha profile image75
    Mishaposted 8 years ago

    Guys, it looks too overheated to me now. Why don't all involved parties take a break for a day or two, and then return to the subject with cooler heads? I see a lot of misunderstanding here, and it definitely can be cleared out if there is a will...

  38. Jason Menayan profile image61
    Jason Menayanposted 8 years ago

    All -

    I have only skimmed through all of this, but it seems at the heart of it, it's a misunderstanding. I don't sense any malice from anyone.

    What idunn does in terms of including excerpts from different sources (and attributing them by a link) and adding substantial commentary about them is a common blogger practice. Although the rules about "Fair Use" are pretty vague, as Ralph's post attests to, we believe that what idunn does qualifies. Our duplicate checker will sometimes automatically flag this sort of thing as duplicate, but we will put in an override because it is not a simple copy of the entire article.

    However, if it's something that's copied from another source, however innocently, with little/no commentary, we won't put in an override because we want to encourage original authorship and/or original commentary. We hope everyone understands why we do this. Your Hubs that you took the time to write on your own should be rewarded with higher HubScores than those you copied-and-pasted, after all.

    What we are not in favor of at HubPages, at all, is the copying and pasting entire articles from other sites for the purposes of promoting another site or offer. We consider that spam and will unpublish it, telling the author to fix it. This is pretty rare occurrence among users who actually interact with others in the forums and in Hubs.

    Another thing that we will not tolerate is copying content without the permission of the author. However, we comply with US DMCA law, and will wait until the copyright owner contacts us. This is the only legal and practicable way to deal with this.

    Note: flagging as anything other than duplicate (i.e. as adult, gambling, spam, low-quality, etc) will just make us take a look at it. It does not apply an automatic penalty or force it to be unpublished. We think this is great and flagging plays an important part of keeping our standards high on the site. We are truly thankful for the flaggers out there.

    Flagging as duplicate just means our automatic duplicate checker will take a look a bit faster than it would do otherwise.

    Hope this clears everything up from the way it works on our end.

    - Jason

  39. 0
    Iðunnposted 8 years ago

    Jason, thank you for the clarification.  Probably the ones who need to read it won't, but one can't say you didn't try.

    I appreciate you taking the time to address this issue.

  40. gamergirl profile image60
    gamergirlposted 8 years ago


    Thanks for responding in the thread.  So, by what you've said, if I find an article I like and post a chunk of it in a hub, then write one sentence about what I think of the article, that's ok?

    I appreciate any clarification on this, and apologize that you had to pause your busy day to deal with a thread like this one.

    1. Jason Menayan profile image61
      Jason Menayanposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      No, we're looking for more than one sentence of commentary, if you want the duplicate override - it should be substantial, thoughtful commentary. But unless you link out to a third site (i.e. not HubPages or not the source of the excerpted material) then it should not get flagged and unpublished, either.

      - Jason

      1. gamergirl profile image60
        gamergirlposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        Thank you very much. 

        That's exactly what I wanted to know when I made the other thread. smile

  41. LdsNana-AskMormon profile image91
    LdsNana-AskMormonposted 8 years ago

    Perhaps somebody here can 'enlighten' me as to WHY all of the sudden


    Ones that have been doing just fine and are TOTALLY original, except for a 'proclamation' that should not be tampered with....  but is LEGAL to post.

    Help... my score is plummeting fast and I can't get answers from anyone here.  I also have had quite a few friends say that they could post on other Hubs, but continually have NOT been able to on mine.

    Thanks guys,

    This is really confusing and concerning

    1. Jason Menayan profile image61
      Jason Menayanposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      I will restate this again, although I would kindly ask you to refer to my own emails to you fully explaining this in detail, as well as the previous post explaining this. Having to repeat the same thing over and over again suggests you are ignoring what I'm writing.

      A duplicate penalty is applied when our automated duplicate content checker detects copies of the same verbiage on the Web.

      Flagging something as duplicate only makes the duplicate content checker run the exact same automated process that it would do, just a bit sooner. (It moves it up the queue)

      If something is completely unique content, and someone flags it as duplicate, the automatic checker will run, it will find out there are zero duplicates, and there will not be a penalty applied. Someone flagging something as duplicate will not give it a penalty.

      There is the occasional false-positive, but we've only seen that on Hubs published outside the U.S. There are some forms of punctuation that mess up our duplicate content checker. We happily put in overrides in these cases when we manually check the content and see that it is original.

      LdsNana: Your Hubs that have a duplicate penalty applied have that penalty because they are copied content. You can easily find hundreds of copies of the exact same copy on the Web on other sites. It is not unique, so it will get a penalty. If you want to avoid the penalty, then we suggest you erase the whole thing and write something unique.

      This is my absolute last post on the subject. Gearing up for the contest next week - it launches on Thursday!

      - Jason

      P.S. Thank you darkside for the terrifice explanation of the difference between plagiarism and duplication.

      1. darkside profile image83
        darksideposted 8 years ago in reply to this


        I actually jotted down a few notes last time it came up. I think I may write a hub on it. Your post here has some excellent points that I'll reference if I do go ahead and publish it.

      2. LdsNana-AskMormon profile image91
        LdsNana-AskMormonposted 8 years ago in reply to this


        I understand you are done commenting here.  My point is that my last communication with you was when ONE had been flagged...  I came into the forums when THREE had been flagged in this manner and still no response.

        It was you, that told me to go to the forums with my problems and not bother the team with these things....

        Sorry if I upset you.... but this is upsetting to me.

        My apologies.


  42. 0
    Iðunnposted 8 years ago

    that is what happened to me too.

    do any of the people attacking me in here seem like people who dislike you too? 

    apparently some particular hubbers feel it is their personal and specific DUTY to make sure others (some others, others they dislike) achieve hub excellence by their own rather strange standards and misperceptions.

  43. gamergirl profile image60
    gamergirlposted 8 years ago


    I've had enough of the veiled (and not so veiled) attempts to insult me.  In the other thread, did you miss the post I made where I said it made me sad to see you post the articles in the way you did?  I have, up until you created a thread solely to insult and accuse me of things I did not do, enjoyed reading your hubs, your comments around the site and the other things that being your fan let me see in my Hubtivity screen.

    I made a thread which did not name you, and suddenly you begin to attack my character, claim to be the victim of a flagging spree, and continue to mock my use of the word "awesome."

    I flagged no more than three of your Hubs as duplicate content, and made a forum post to get clarification, as the flagging system has no method for reporting the judgment of the Hubpages staff.  The forum, as evidenced by the response from Jason (Thanks Jason!) shows a clearer response.

    I have attempted to remain as civil as can be, however the more you insult me, the harder it is becoming.

    I never, NEVER, claimed to dislike you before.  I was your reader, your fan, but when you moved from unpoet to mud-slinger, I left your fan club.  I stopped forwarding your poetry to my friends to read and enjoy.  I feel badly for you, actually, because you seem to believe that you're the victim of some sort of elaborate ploy, and you're not.

    I flagged hubs of yours for duplicate content.  I didn't shoot your dog, kick your mother or come at you with a long string of expletives.  I even went so far as to give this incident the anonymity I did at the start, out of respect for the fact that I was a reader.

    No longer, Iounn.  I will not worry myself over this thread, or any other wherein you take it upon yourself to paint me evil and yourself the victim.  I will not stoop to your insults, and though I am no longer your fan, I do wish the best for you and your endeavors on Hubpages.com.

    Have a great rest of the weekend.

  44. 0
    Iðunnposted 8 years ago

    you started a thread claiming I am a plagiarist out of nowhere.  you have been proved wrong, by the input of multiple others including staff and yet you continue to insist on it.

    me clearing it up is not attacking you.  it is my right to assert I am not a plagiarist, once you made an entire thread devoted to suggesting I am.

    I have gone out of my way to be friendly and courteous to you.  It has been ineffective.  I suggest you stop making threads attacking me personally and we choose not to interact.

  45. jaymz profile image80
    jaymzposted 8 years ago

    If you're referring to me- I haven't started ANY thread saying you were a plagiarist, merely commented.

    I'm not saying that you are, either. I'm saying in a college paper, this would be plagiarism and nothing less.

  46. 0
    Iðunnposted 8 years ago

    not you

  47. gamergirl profile image60
    gamergirlposted 8 years ago


    The attacks and written abuses being slung around are aimed at me.  I am the one who started a thread which named NO names, and now apparently I am deserving of three pages worth of Iounn's anger and insults, false accusations and direct attention.

    That is the PRECISE message which started all of this.

    No names, no link to any hubs, no way to identify whose hub it was that caused the beginning of this whole affair (though I've been absent for much of it enjoying my days off of work) and it was only when Iounn came blowing through the thread that any link to her was made.

    As I said in my previous response to Iounn, which seems to have gone mostly unread, I am no longer worried over it.  I have withdrawn from her fan club, will not be supporting her through sending the hubpage links to the poems I enjoy of hers to my friends, and that is that. 

    Also stated in the other thread, I am sad that things have come to this, that my anonymous question and request for clarification on duplicate content has been met with such venom and personal attacks.  However, I still remain hopeful that all will have an enjoyable time and much success.

    Feel free to continue this thread as you will, Iounn, however I will take no more part in it.  Once you make your next reply (and I know you will) know that I will see it, but you will hear no more about this or anything from me.  I wish you happiness and all the best in the world, I really do, but after your behavior in this thread I do not believe we should interact AT ALL.

  48. Whitney05 profile image69
    Whitney05posted 8 years ago

    Mark, you're right. I did spell the word wrong. But if you had the day that I had yesterday I was very flustered, and do NOT appreciate you insinuating that I don't know what I'm talking about because I spelled a word wrong. Thank you.

    By, the way I don't appreciate you attacking my intelligence because, yes, that's what I feel you just did.

    I will say that I took a quiz in both micro and macroeconomics that was solely based on plagiarism. It constituted anything that was closely worded to the original source, even if cited, as plagiarism. The quiz was based off of a handful of websites built by other colleges and professors.

    I'm not fighting with you. I don't appreciate being attacked. I didn't attack anyone. I just gave my opinion.

    Mark, people like you are slowly turning my opinion about HubPages to the point where I don't want to participate anymore other than my own hubs. You don't have the right to attack me or Jaymz for our interpretation of plagiarism. I am truly saddened and upset by what you have done here. Just because you may not like me does NOT give you the right to put me down or belittle me or anyone that agrees with me.

  49. Misha profile image75
    Mishaposted 8 years ago

    Whitney, you are still having a bad day - Mark did not post on this thread at all big_smile

    1. Whitney05 profile image69
      Whitney05posted 8 years ago in reply to this

      I'm SOO sorry to Mark. No, Misha I wasn't having a bad day until I read that comment towards me. I got so flustered, for whatever reason I typed Mark instead of Ralph.

      I hope that if Mark reads through this or happens by that comment, I appologize for that. I was just very hurt and flustered by what Ralph said.

      1. Mark Knowles profile image59
        Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        No sweat - I just took it as a Freudian slip and felt flattered. smile

        1. Kenny Wordsmith profile image84
          Kenny Wordsmithposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          I must admit I enjoyed it,too.big_smile

  50. darkside profile image83
    darksideposted 8 years ago

    I think Mark would laugh about it.

    Drawn into the centre of forum drama even though he is completely absent big_smile