Why can't some people respect others' political views, choices, lifestyles, religion, etc?
Is it intelligence or lack thereof, socialization, upbringing, personality, environment, education or lack thereof, religious teachings, politics, misinformation, propaganda, bad experiences, the economy, or are they just simply born that way?
Seems like tolerance is dead... instead of embracing each others' differences we seem more interested in disparaging or converting those that are not like us.
Every man [and woman] shall be free to profess -and by argument maintain- their opinions in matters of religion and politics.
Ok, but that doesn't mean that man or woman can't respect others' opinions.
Just exactly why should I respect some one's opinion that slavery is acceptable? Or there is an Invisible Super Being watching what I do and it will punish me for not believing? Or that women should be forced to bring a fetus to term? Or any number of other opinions?
Well if you did...you might gain seven virgins in heavan Mr. Knowles.
Ok, obviously slavery is not what I had in mind when I started this thread, so I'll just leave that there.
As for God or abortion, because it is just that, their opinion, not fact. And if you are under no compulsion to agree with it or accept it as fact nor do you have to associate with that person, then you should be able to respect it for what it is, their opinion.
You don't have to like what someone thinks, you just have to be able to respect that it's their opinion.
I come in peace.
I do respect that it is their opinion, I just do not respect that opinion sometimes.
So - do you respect the opinion that slavery is acceptable?
And that's fine, you can disagree with the opinion yet still respect their right to have it.
Of course I don't think slavery is acceptable. But if someone thinks it is acceptable, then as much as I disagree and would never associate with that person, I can respect that it is their opinion, as offensive as it may be to me.
Indeed. And I DO respect the rights of people to believe any idiotic thing they want to. In the case of religion, I will stand shoulder to shoulder and fight anyone who wants to take away that right or force any specific religion or non-religion on anyone.
THAT I respect.
But I cannot and will not respect the belief itself. Even while we stand in the line fighting those who would interfere with your belief, I will tell you that your beliefs are worthy of nothing but ridicule.
Nor will I necessarily respect you. I might, but if your beliefs are fervent, I will not respect you because I will think you a fool for holding such nonsense as real.
So - all you will get is respect for your rights. That's it.
You dodged the question. Do you respect the actual opinion or not?
And what value is it that you respect that it is their opinion?
Seems to me you have put yourself in the position of either admitting that there are some opinions you do not respect, or pretending to respect an opinion you abhor.
I respect anyone's right to have any opinion they like. I reserve my right not to respect that opinion.
I think you are trying to split hairs. I do not agree with the opinion that slavery is acceptable, but I can respect that someone else may hold that opinion. And let's leave it at that. You are free to interpret that however you wish.
What decent person respects that opinion? Does telling someone they're an ignorant idiot for having that opinion change things though? Respect doesn't mean agreeing.
I know what respect means, thanks. I don't know if telling people they are an ignorant idiot for having that opinion works or not - it certainly seems to as far as slavery in the US goes. Or do you think slavery would have magically gone away because every one respected that opinion?
Slavery was more than an opinion, it was a practice. When someone is doing something that is harmful to other people or society it should be taken care of, of course. I thought we were talking about other's opinions, not actions. Those can be two very different things.
It may help some people.
For example, my wife was brought up surrounded by fervent theists. She thought the whole thing was insane, but because she had no knowledge of anyone who thought any differently, she started to think that something was wrong with her.
Most people lack the strength of character to resist the opinions of the majority. That has been shown in incredible experiments where an obviously incorrect answer is given by the majority of a group. They have been told to give this answer, but sadly enough, a ridiculous number of ordinary people will give that same answer. They are good little sheeples, afraid to buck majority opinion.
So pointing out the ignorance, contradictions and utter impossibility of religious belief can in fact be very helpful. It can remove the self imposed blinders from peoples eyes.
This doesn't have to be a religious discussion. I want to know why some people (don't take it personally, I'm not singling you out) have to make their opinions made known in a few that is verbally abusive to the other person.
How would slave-holders ever learn the error of their ways if we didn't point it out to them loudly and repeatedly?
Okay that sounded rather obnoxious, but personally I'm all for open dialogue. I believe it should be done with as much mutual respect as possible, but the usual ruckus is better than everyone just tiptoeing around each other and issues that may cause... (gasp!) conflict. Let's not sweep our idiocies under a rug. It just builds up that way. Gotta sweep it out!
Conflict is good. Friction is good. It's the only way any progress is ever made.
See! Mark is open minded.. why cat the rest of you be!
If people don't want to here you, hold your tongue not them. Life is all about individuality, understand it and move on.
All too often people live in their own little universe.
In that situation, it is just too foreign to them for to imagine any other concept fitting into their little world.
If we have everything where we want it, we do not want anyone coming in and moving our stuff around. We want to be able to find it all in the dark.
I'm not talking about me, you or anyone else that I know,
Just answering the question as to why THEM OTHER Folks are the way THEY are.
Some people don't respect others' views because they are control-freak bullies who only want their own way.
That being said, there are some views that simply are not worthy of respect. And indeed there is no law of humanity that says a person has to respect those views. Honesty and morality are good attributes; tolerance for evil isn't.
Because just having a view on something is not good enough for debate. You need to have an 'informed view' where you have some knowledge of the subject. For example, you can't have not read anything but the bible for your whole life and then tell me science is a crock. That is not debate.
Some people feel they must look down upon others as a means of raising their own ego.
I'm inclined to think if an idea is ridiculous it's fair enough to ridicule it...it can be a good way to dismantle a faulty and potentially dangerous premise. For example if I came on here and said *people with red hair are evil*...I'd probably get a barrage of responses making fun of my claim and deservedly so. I'd be much less likely then to venture forth with that opinion again. Now you might say, I'd been intimidated into silence...but really my idea did not deserve respect and it shouldn't be propagated. By contrast if my claim had been met with respectful disagreement...I would believe that it had at least been taken seriously and might be more likely to take it out for a ride again.
Ridicule is one the ways society keeps silly and noxious ideas at bay. It's an effective and legitimate weapon against ignorant ideas. Look at Charlie Chaplin's satirical film about Adolph Hitler, The Great Dictator. Was it disrespectful? Yes? Did Hitler deserve respect? No.
Having said that, ridicule-as-weapon can also be abused. Definitely. Handle with care.
'Course there's always the possibility red-haired people ARE evil....*cue ridicule*
1) There is absolutely no reason why one should respect the opinions of another, especially if the opinion is uninformed, etc. However, one should always respect people. There is a difference.
2) Some people have a deep need to get their point agreed to. They feel bad at some level if others do not think or believe the same thing they do.
3) There is a fashion these days to discuss things when people don’t agree. I preferred it in days when if one met someone that had very different views to one’s own, one changed the topic and found something that both agreed to. In other words, one respected the person – not the point of view.
I still haven't seen one of these who argue in favor of "respecting other's beliefs," give me a good reason to do so. I suspect - although I may be wrong in this - that what they really means is, "Respect my religious beliefs, dammit! Now!"
That is polite but isn't it also a little dull? In an internet forum for example, it would be pretty lifeless if everyone just changed the subject whenever a contentious issue came up.
Did you hear this word? PERCEPTION mean it. Applicable to each and everyone.
Because most of us have been taught in school that there is only one correct answer, all other answers are wrong.
a : sympathy or indulgence for beliefs or practices differing from or conflicting with one's own "
I believe that's the definition of tolerance you're going for?
In that case - is someone 'intolerant' if they forcefully disagree with your view? They may not have sympathy for it - but unless they are actively preventing your from believing it - they are, by definition, indulging your right to have that belief.
So an atheist that disagrees with a theist is not being intolerant. Unless they are burning doing churches or trying to revoke the rights of people to worship as they wish, they are indulging the theists their right to worship and to believe as they wish.
As for respect - you can certain disagree with a view and respect it, however, simply disagreeing or factually dissecting an opinion or providing evidence against it is not showing disrespect.
In fact, by the first definition on myriam-webster.com
"a : to consider worthy of high regard : esteem b : to refrain from interfering with <please respect their privacy> "
a) why should someone automatically consider someone's opinion of being worthy of high regard or esteem?
b) unless they are actually interfering with you having your opinion, they aren't going against this either.
So on one hand, they can be showing "a lack of respect" (which isn't necessarily 'evil' or 'bad') to an opinion, but also not interfering with it on the other hand.
I agree. You can express your own opinion with out degrading the opinion of others. I think it comes down to personality and pride. Some people have to be right all the time and are not humble enough to hear another's views and then react with kindness and respect no matter what their own views are.
"Someday, when we are wiser.
When the world's older.
When we have learned.
I pray someday we may yet
Live, to live and let live."
- Someday, one of my favorite songs !!!!!
I tend to respect the person more than the opinion, but sometimes it's hard because you wonder what kind of person has that opinion?
Very true rebekahELLE... I do wonder how someone can have such an opinion sometimes... but, at the end of the day, it is just their opinion. And I am free to disagree and have my own.
I think a well rounded education is extremely helpful in understanding others and developing tolerance. when young people are sheltered from learning or taught a rigid set of beliefs, they either adopt those rigid beliefs or abandon them and start thinking for themselves. I think there's nothing more sad than a child who doesn't have a library card or doesn't have access to books and a place to read them. We form a lot of our beliefs as a child and they develop throughout adulthood, sometimes changing. I know some of mine did once I experienced more of life.
an adult who can't see the forest for the trees.. is missing a lot of life, getting so caught up in irrational beliefs rather than looking at the whole overall situation or belief system, etc.
rebekahELLE, I agree that sheltered upbringings where one is indoctrinated with certain belief systems does lead to close-mindedness.
However, I also see people, for example some atheists, who are well educated and came to their beliefs later in life through self-exploration, be very intolerant of others' views (religion in this case).
You misunderstand the word. We have little choice but to TOLERATE, but you cannot make us respect.
...but you don't have to SAY anything. Even if you are thinking, "Wow, that's a stupid opinion." Sometimes repect can be just holding your tongue and changing the subject. What does making fun of someone's beliefs do for you personally? What does telling someone their opinion is stupid do? Does it change them or just hurt their feelings? Does belittling people do anything for you personally? That is the question. Why can't people just live and let live?
If you don't bring up ridiculous beliefs, I won't ridicule them.
It's that simple.
Pcuinx, but they are ridiculous to you, not the person holding them.
MissE, I agree... nothing is accomplished from attacking people's beliefs in my opinion, except for hurting them and making yourself feel better in some (twisted) way.
Why? Why do you feel the need to "ridicule" anyone?
Because the beliefs are ridiculous. Note the word stem.
To you, but not to them. It accomplishes nothing. It does nothing to better you or the other person, so why do it? To bring others down? Why?
Pcunix, your views could be just as "ridiculous" to me, but I can respect that they are your views and not feel the need to ridicule you for having them.
Atheism can't be "ridiculed" - there is nothing to ridicule. There are no contradictions, no impossibilities, no lies. Religion, on the other hand, is rife with opportunity for ridicule.
Religious people find plenty ridiculous about atheism. Some choose to attack it, while others choose to respect it as the holder's belief.
Some theists may attempt to ridicule atheism, but they never succeed in anything but accidentally pointing out their own fallacious reasoning.
hello jaja you make me laugh LOL sound like me and my son well about others my friend from texas use to said "LABEL AND INTERPRETATIONS " ... LET THEM SAID WHAT THE F..WANT TO SAID RIGHT ? HOPE BE ALL NICE TO ME WITH MY SPANIENGLISH lol HEY BY THE WAY CAN I SEND POEMS HERE OR IN A NICE BLOG OR PLACE TO HAVE SOME FUN ?
There are lots of opinions that I don't hold, but respect.
There are others which are so stupid or ill-thoughtout, or illogical, or prejudiced, that I have no respect for them at all.
"Why is it so hard for some people to respect others' views?"
Self imposed ignorance as it relates to religious belief, specifically to the 3 major monotheisms, is absurd and deadly!
How can an educated, thinking, rational human being be respectful of that part of mankind which refuses to study, understand and accept "truths?" (the actual state of things)
Instead, chooses, due to abject ignorance" to guide lives and living based soley upon baseless opinion and conjecture?
I can neither respect them or their primitive, childish beliefs in supernatural heroes.
I cannot "respect" the views of lesser evolved people who have not studied the disgusting, deadly history and evolution of their fairytale, religious beliefs. Nor can I respect their choice to remain ignorant and frustrated when information and data is to readily available.
I can respect many views on a myriad subjects, but the asininity of religion? NOT!
Hmm... so I guess I'll count you out then.
I'm sure you're aware that religious people probably think the same of you (very little). Some may waste their time arguing with you while others just take it as your opinion and move on with their lives.
Oh of course.
Lol, I've been running into that attitude from my years in baptist seminary, to now.
I expect it from those who are as misled and ignorant as I was as an alledged "born-again-christian."
I've been where they are, have "worn-their mocassins" so I can understand their reticence in accepting "truths."
Now at the "advanced" age of over 65...lol and having done my homework, my thinking and understanding of "reality" is light years beyond their ability to accept, understand and make meaning of.
It's, as I experienced due to my youth and dirth of intellect, due to self imposed ignorance. I was an easily led young man who was being programmed to promulgate beliefs based on fear, superstition and myth. No doubt about it.
Why the need for bringing religious subjects into this. You have made your point about you're lack of respect for others religious beliefs. Why can you not even respond to a thread about respecting others with out making it about religion when you are so against it? You seek out opportunities to belittle and ridicule the religious because you are prejudice. That's all there is to it. Hate and prejudice can get you know where. It only brings yourself and others down. So why not just let it go?
Who as this comment meant for?
I am "guessing" me.
Why should I have to guess?
I think forum "courtesy" should require a "name" for whom a comment is aimed at.
This one's for you buddy.
With respect and regards,
P.S. It can also apply to many others as well. I guess my question more specifically is, Do you view yourself as prejudice? Why, or why not?
The word you have now misused several times is annoying me.
One can exhibit prejudice. One who does so may be said to be prejudiced.
Note the "d" on the end.
Thank you for the courtesy. :
This is an easy one to answer:
The forum question is: "Why is it so hard for some people to respect others views?"
That covers alot of ground. Ones views of religion are included.
Oh yes! I am very "prejudiced" against "self imposed ignorance" which has, historically cause death, destruction, pain and suffering for millions of innocent people.
Religion, specifically, monotheism during the past 2000 yrs is what I refer to.
I mentioned in a past forum subject, that the only concept man has created that has been responsible for more death, pain and destruction than monotheism, is the automobile.
I think you know that I am not an atheist, agnostic, deist or a believer in supernatural divinities.
I am a believer in universal education and the definition of "truth."
Religion has been used as a crutch through out the ages for political gain and power. It was not religion but the misuse of religion by corrupt rulers, politicians, and groups that have brought death, pain, and destruction. Every religion has periods of violence, but it was not generally caused by the doctrine of that religion, but the misuse of that doctrine by a corrupt leader.
Man created the concept religion.
Man created the concept god/s.
Man is guilty of using that which he created to cause death, pain and suffering.
Man is still an ignorant infant in the crib kicking a clawing at the surrounding world.
Man has no respect for "man!"
Man continues, to this day, creating methods to destroy himself without compunction!
Man's abject ignorance may be the perpetrator of his eventual demise.
Man now has the means and the desire to return all life to the "stone age."
Man does not respect life!
I DO NOT RESPECT MAN! IT HASN'T EARNED IT!
So you respect no one. OK, I get that. I'd rather someone apply the same to everyone rather than be prejudiceD. Still, how sad to have no respect whatsoever. Oh well. To each his own.
There are individuals who have earned my respect.
The Genus/species: "man," has not earned my respect.
I respect "man's" ability to this point in his evolution, to have endured, to have adapted and suvived.
He has done that because of his massive brain and the evolution of the 2 frontal lobes which have gifted him with the ability to think in abstract form, to image, create, plan and work a plan to fruition.
I respect man as an impressive result of the processes of "natural selection." He has evolved as earth's prime predator! A killer that now has the ability to destroy all contemporary life, including hmself.
The problem is that man is an immature animal having difficulty functioning with the uniqueness of consciousness.
Its primitive genetic programming is set on "instinct." The anomaly "consciousness" is controlled by "will."
The predatious characteristics of his genetic programming, combined with evolving consciousness and social skills, has been responsible for his survival as a species.
He has not yet learned "civility."
That is what I cannot respect.
Until his genetic programming can be sublimated into a more civil and sociable creature, he will not earn my respect.
Herein lies the problem i.e. it takes hundreds of thousands of years to evolve noticeable changes in complex creatures such as us.
There has been one exception. As man's brain evolved, his evolution over the past 50k yrs has been remarkably quick!
Man is not, at the moment, evolving well in accordance with Mother Natures demands.
A very interesting and scientific conclusion. I love science. I think what the scientific community fails to acknowledge is that science is based on hypothesis and that, while some hypothesis have been proven, many scientific theories have not and are therefore still just educated guesses. What the religious sometimes fail to acknowledge is that religion is based on faith. Faith cannot be absolutely proven with hard core facts either. Back to the topic at hand. So, your lack of respect for the human race in general has to do with their lack of evolutionary perfection of some sort. Hmmmmm... very interesting. You express your opinions well.
I wonder why the religious community persists in deliberately mis-stating this. Science is based on measurable facts and observable data. No scientific theories have been proven, they merely stand as the best explanation we have, awaiting some one to disprove them.
This does not mean they are the "still just educated guesses," as though this makes them exactly the same as the religious fairy tales you prefer.
I wonder if you appreciate how difficult it is for some people to respect this dishonest approach?
I am in fact religious, but did not state that I was. It is interesting that you are clinging to this need to take down the religious. I am trying to understand you and people like you, and have a very interesting discussion.
You said, "they merely stand as the best explanation we have" therefore they are not pure fact. You also said, "Science is based on measurable facts and observable data" I understand this, but I also see the Bible in this way as do many in the scientific community. It is data, written evidence to me. I also understand that you do not share this belief. I am cool with that. I enjoy the way you write and the way you express yourself. I respect that. I can state my opinion without putting you down. Can you do the same? That is what I am trying to figure out through this experiment and observation.
P.S. - I said "educated guesses" because that is the definition they give for a hypothesis in many cases. Science is based on hypothesis. I don't believe I am in the wrong in stating it that way. My opinion.
I am not "clinging to the need to take down the religious," - I am attempting to clear up a misconception that you have about the way science and religiosity work. They are not the same at all.
No - no one sees the bible as based on observable facts and measurable data - you said yourself it is a matter of faith and as I understand it - "revealed knowledge."
So, please stop insulting my intelligence by claiming that science and religion have exactly the same basis, because they do not and - I can tell the difference. This would actually be respecting me.
I wonder if you see how disrespectful of me you are being every time you tell me that scientific theories based on observable facts and repeatable tests are the same as your religious fairy tales.
I mean - do you actually think I am so stupid that I cannot tell the difference?
I did not say "based on observable facts and measurable data" I said they are data - or written evidence. It is something that you can hold in your hand. It is real and written word. I do not mean to insult your intelligence at all. Faith and Science are not the same. I am merely stating that neither one has been proven absolutely, in its entirety. Is this not true? Maybe we differ here.
"This would actually be respecting me." So, are you saying that to you respect is agreeing with you? It can be a form of respect, but not the form I am talking about.
"I wonder if you see how disrespectful of me you are being every time you tell me that scientific theories based on observable facts and repeatable tests are the same as your religious fairy tales."
How am I being disrespectful to you personally? Did you come up with said theories?
"I mean - do you actually think I am so stupid that I cannot tell the difference?" I never meant to come across as saying that you are stupid. I believe I said I respect you and your writing. I can't help but think that you are calling me stupid because of your first remark,
"I am attempting to clear up a misconception that you have about the way science and religiosity work. They are not the same at all." You imply that I think that they are the same and therefore "cannot tell the difference" meaning that I am indeed the stupid one. Correct me if I am wrong.
No - you seem to think I should hold them in the same regard. Why exactly is that? They are totally and utterly different. If I write something on a piece of paper - does that make it a fact or observable data? No.
You are correct in stating that neither science or religion have been proven absolutely, but you seem to be - and correct me if I am wrong - suggesting that this makes them some how equal. Is that the case? In which case you are insulting my intelligence.
I don't know if you can tell the difference. Do you think Jesus went to America before going to heaven and wearing particular underwear will convey some spiritual benefits? Because if you do - I may be forced to conclude that you are unable to tell the difference.
I am not saying that YOU should do anything. I am attempting to figure out if you can have a discussion respectfully......... actually. You are now attacking my beliefs and you really don't know what you are talking about at this point. I have my conclusion concerning you and the original subject matter. I meant no insult and continue to respect the way that you present your case. I am out of time and am on my way out the door. I am sure you are unsatisified with this reply, but I have run!
Why am I "attacking your beliefs,"? I thought you wanted to understand me and people like me?
We are having a respectful conversation aren't we? I just think your beliefs are not worthy of respect - and what you really mean is - you want me to respect your beliefs - not have a respectful discussion. Try saying what you actually mean - you will get a lot more respect.
I have not mentioned religion. You brought up the subject. I did not tell you what faith I am, you sought it out and brought to light things about it that are widely discussed by many people not of my faith that have no real knowledge of the matter. In saying, "Because if you do - I may be forced to conclude that you are unable to tell the difference. " You are hinting that because of my beliefs I am stupid. I understand the undertones in your words and what they imply, and while you are also implying that you are trying to have a respectful conversation your "pen" is a two edged sword. You are not trying to respect me, you are baiting me into a religious discussion. I have no intention nor have I ever had the intention of discussing my beliefs with you. I have great faith in my beliefs whether you understand or care to respect them at all. I think one's choice in religion or lack there of is a private matter. Others can debate it all they want, I will not. I commented here to discuss respect and have concluded based on what you have said and implied that in this case you will not react respectfully because you are prejudiced toward the religious of any kind. I continue to respect your intelligence and your ability to discuss your feelings well. I am not looking for your respect although I respect you enough to not say anything degrading toward your views. Thank you for sharing them with me. Our personalities and beliefs seem to be on very different ends of the spectrum.
Please stop insulting my intelligence. You were the one that bought up religion by suggesting to me that religious beliefs and scientific theories are much the same because neither have been absolutely proven.
I found it offensive that you seemed to think I was incapable of telling the difference, so I went to look at your profile page to see what you had to say about yourself. Lo and behold - you announce your religious affiliation right there. So, please do not accuse me of doing anything other than looking at you profile page to see what it is you want to tell the world about yourself.
If you genuinely think that one's choice in religion is a private matter - I heartily suggest removing your affiliation from your profile page, and I also suggest affiliating yourself with a less aggressively evangelical sect.
I hinted at nothing - if you choose to take my beliefs as a personal attack - that is your business. Nice getting to know you.
Let's just call a truce and agree to disagree. No hard feelings? I did not mean to insult you in anyway.
Oh - there are no hard feelings. Good Lord! Have you seen some of the comments in here? You cannot take it personally or you will become a gibbering wreck.
I don't understand what we are agreeing to disagree about,though. What is that exactly?
People form their opinions/beliefs based on what they think is right. If they think their opinions are right, then, obviously, they think differing opinions are wrong. It's pretty reasonable that someone not respect what he sees as "wrong".
I respect other people as people, and I respect their right to have their own opinion. So, I'm not guilty (in general) of not respecting other people. I'm guilty, however, of not respecting opinions I believe (and sometimes know) are wrong, because what kind of moron would I be if I respected what I know is wrong? One thing about respecting differing opinions, though is how well a person knows the difference between being sure he is absolutely correct and not being able to be sure he's correct.
The other aspect to it is some things don't have a right-or-wrong answer anyway. If Fred likes skiing, and I hate it; I can easily respect that as " just a difference in preferences". Then, too, there's those times when someone is obviously so twisted and wacky he's someone who does things like think he has a right to be rotten to people and animals. That person doesn't deserve respect. Blindly respecting some wacko, freako, opinion that involves something like slavery or pre-WWII era Europe is one of the weakest and worst things people can do.
I guess my point is, all "respecting our differences" is not equal. There's also something to be said for standing our ground if/when we believe we're right.
LisaHW, very well said. I agree with most of what you say. However, anyone can appreciate that there are exceptional circumstances where it may be very difficult or impossible to respect someone's views. But even then, I don't think much is accomplished from attacking them personally. If you (I mean people generally) have a problem with a societal norm, for example, there are means such as legal recourse to challenge that norm, which may ultimately be much more satisfying and lead to more good than attacking people who support it.
Pointing out flaws in others and ridiculing them, only makes the individual feel better about themselves.
Because they are not able to see the flaws in the gem they feel themselves to be, they compensate by pointing out and ridiculing others.
This relieves them of the burden of introspection to notice how they are personally lacking themselves.
Very interesting... I do think there is a great deal of insecurity involved with people who constantly attack others (such as homophobes who attack gays perhaps?).
Pointing out ridiculous beliefs can help a person lose their religious fantasies and become a better person.
As I noted in the case of my wife, it can help a person realize that they are not the crazy one when all around them are insisting that impossible things are true.
Pcunix, I hope you realize how arrogant that comes across.
There are billions of religious people in this world, and I'm sure they don't need your help to become better people. If they want to believe in God, then they should be able to do that without you calling their beliefs "fantasies." It is not helpful or constructive, and ultimately does more harm than any possible good.
As I now have to explain yet again, religious beliefs ARE fantasies and it is not arrogance to say so.
Moreover, making people aware that most intelligent people do not have these silly illusions can be very helpful to those who have been brainwashed by parents and family. As I said before, my wife really was worried that something must be wrong with her until she finally met others who did not accept religion as any sort of truth.
I see ridiculing religious beliefs in a forum like this as possibly being quite helpful to isolated people who are surrounded by fatuous theists. It helps them know that they are not alone, that there is a greater community of wise people who do not pretend that invisible friends are watching over them.
Ok, well if you feel you need to attack religious people, then more power to you. But I doubt it does any good, so that may be one fantasy you're living under.
This thread was about the reasons why people attack other people's beliefs, and you are a great case study.
Indeed. I have given valid reasons to point out the foolishness of religious belief in a forum like this.
The only argument you have offered against it is that someone's feelings may be hurt.
Tell me, do you feel hurt that I think religious beliefs are nonsense?
Does it bother you to know that religious belief declines with intelligence? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religiosit … telligence
Do you possibly think this might explain why some otherwise intelligent people cling to these beliefs: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment ?
I do. And that's why I take the time and trouble to speak against the madness, so that others like my wife do not have to feel isolated and alone. I do it so that young people who may not be fully brainwashed yet may have some help in opening their minds to reality.
And your reasons as to why I should not are what? Because you want to help perpetuate these fantasies?
I think you're taking this thread into an unnecessary tangent. It is not a thread about religion, but feel free to continue attacking religious people elsewhere.
Thank you, as you have offered no reason why I should not, and I have given an excellent argument in favor, I will continue to point out the absurdity of religious belief.
Do I really need to remind you that the heading of this thread is "hy is it so hard for some people to respect others' views" ?
Not only have I given you reason why those views deserve no respect, but I have also given reasons why I believe it is helpful to repeat those reasons frequently.
That's very definitely NOT a tangent, is it?
You've offered nothing to rebut any of that, have you?
Do you also point out to people that are obese that they are overweight?
Maybe it will awaken them and enrich their lives! Not!
Do you mean to imply that in an appropriate forum it is improper to discuss the health risks of obesity?
I did not realize that your only social interactions occur within forums.
A lot of things make sense now!
That's bad logic. I make my atheism known in human interactions also - when it is appropriate to do so. I don't jump all over people who say "God Bless" if I sneeze, but if they make ludicrous claims, I will refute them.
But you will point out the obese and the smokers in real life, knowing that your advice will benefit their lives?
Of course I do.
I care about my friends. I encourage them not to harm their health. I tell them that I am worried about that if I see them gaining weight or smoking.
Not unless they ask for advice. I allow an individual to live their own lives as long as they:
Do no harm to others, unless it is in defense.
Respect and do no harm to another's property.
Remain true to all contracts.
Well, I appreciate that, but I disagree. When I care about someone, I tell them what I need to tell them.
When I see a four hundred pound mountain in Walmart, I ignore them. That's partly out of courtesy and partly because I'd have no time for anything else.
just as an aside, I hate Costco and Ikea almost as much as Walmart
Do you think you are more courteous in real life, when actually seeing the human then you are in a forum?
I think this is true at times, but not always. Some people really don't form their own opinions/beliefs, they're imprinted at an early age or through brainwashing. we can see this in extremely rigid belief systems throughout history and in our current modern world. people in extreme religious and political cults have their beliefs formed for them and they accept it as the right way to think or believe.
I don't think attacking a person does anything other than widen the divide. If debating an opinion or belief, there's a fine line between the person and the opinion. I guess that's why sometimes people feel threatened when their beliefs are attacked. Carl Jung talks about this in his work.
Well, there is some loaded language used here by the theists.
They are not being "attacked" in any real sense of the word. In fact, the rules of these forums do not allow personal attacks at all.
Pointing out fallacies and impossibilities is not "attacking", no matter how many times they say that it is.
Pcunix, assuming that anyone who disagrees with you is a "theist" makes you look insecure and kind of desperate to pick at people by labeling them "theists."
We all know you are a proud atheist who thinks religion is fantasy. Let's move on.
More faulty logic. Simply because I mentioned theists in this context does not mean that I assume any such thing.
"Well, there is some loaded language used here by the theists."
No one on this thread has claimed to be a theist.
Anyways, let's please leave it here. We are all idiots, your logic is flawless. I hope that feels as good as you hoped.
My comment about "attacking" was not limited to this thread.
Nor did I suggest that anyone is an idiot - though certainly some of you don't argue very rationally at all. That's far from idiocy, however.
My logic is apparently flawless. You haven't rebutted it, have you? No one else has, have they?
Has anyone given reason why we should not point out logical fallacies and obvious impossibilities? Has any presented an argument that shows why we should respect fantasies?
No, you haven't.
I've always liked wavy gravy's famous line, it helps keep life in perspective..
we're all bozo's on the bus, so we might as well sit back and enjoy the ride.
some of my best friends and family have very different life views than myself, but we have great times together. we don't have to agree in order to respect each other. I think the way we live speaks much more than what we say. the issues we disagree on simply are put to the side.
I play poker every week with a group that is mostly Republican, conservative and regular church-goers.
We get along fine. They call me the Lunatic Liberal Atheist and I take their money
good for you i still send saints to my son and he send back LOL is matter of time to grow up and see one day was someone there when you go up and see the light and the peacefull tunnel then tell me no one there call JESUS??I HAVE A GREAT MIRACLES DO CARE TO KNOW I POST HERE SOME and oops the big was on jajaja love you mrs grace
well i guess we lost or we loosing time to talk something like god in this cold place and close to christmas but i respect all of you the way handle this topic very difficult to tell some one dont or do belive i have one home so is hard and hrt like someone said here but it true to someone said here let go and go on with some another topic
but is not good avoid problems in the society fu..i need a dicc here hahaha let me see if i get spelling right i love this hard topics to talk about it jajaja damm me love you all thanks i have to go now is a good place hope seeu around mrs grace
simple-equilibrium and balance. relationships of all kinds will continue to challenge us or push our buttons to provide the service of raising our resonate frequencies. these people will continue to reflect back to ourselves that part of us we are disowning. in the end, we are everything we think we are not-both "good" and "bad", either in the form of the One or the Many. Universal Law rearing its head. THIS is how the "Law of Attraction" works as elecrto-magnetic quantum physics beings made from "light". (scientists have proven all of our universe is comprised of light wave resonating at varying frequencies to give form) in essence, we are light, preceiving light. our "charge" (seeing/feeling events as one-sided) attracts an event, people, etc.. to us to give the opportunity to love parts of ourselves we are disowning. all light is half positive, half negative in wave form instaneiously complimentary balanced. in the end, it is all love, in one form or another. Dr. Mike
"Why can't some people respect others' political views, choices, lifestyles, religion, etc?"
What a loaded question!!! as usual in these forums, the very definitions of the words used by the OP i.e. respect, views, choices, lifestyles - are hazily defined or not at all. How the heck can I respect a political view, choice, lifestyle, religion? If I am sure that these views, choices, lifestyles and religions are based on such very flimsy knowledge - I just can't find it in me to respect them. I think I know that the OP is asking us to just smile and nod when someone makes some outrageous claim like the existence of hell, or the damnation of people for homosexuality, or the omnipotence of their all-knowing god - - respect those opinions? respect those statements, views or whatever? Hell no. I can't and I won't, even if I might personally (if I ever met them) adore the person saying it and make allowances for their ignorance, I would not and should not be expected to "respect" their unsupported and insupportable opinions on these things.
When I define "respect" I mean, beyond acceptance - having a positive feeling of esteem - so no I don't need to have a positive feeling of esteem for opinions that have been adequately refuted in many quite knowledgeable debates, papers, books and are opinions which I feel are big roadblocks in life. I don't feel esteem for opinions and beliefs that I have personally seen keep people living in the dark ages. Some of these views people hold onto so solidly are really limiting them, sometimes destroying them, but they don't see it that way.
If you mean attacks on a person because they hold those opinions - then no, I would never attack someone because they hold those opinions. I WOULD attack their opinions or beliefs sometimes - but usually only if I think they would really hear what I say coming from my own belief in endless compassion, and a sincere desire to bring them some knowledge to help open their minds.
I really like the Buddhist teaching - "There are many paths up the mountain."
Another definition of respect is to refrain from intruding upon or interfering with. I think that is what is being referred to here. Why can't people refrain from interfering and intruding on people's opinions? You can disagree with someone with out "intruding"upon their beliefs or opinions with verbal assault.
Absolutely - when in a courteous debate people usually point out the fallacies in the other person's opinion and bring to light the knowledge they have that refutes that opinion, when they disagree.
But so often I've noticed in these forums that people bring up a very astute reason for not having the opinion in question and the other person ignores the reason of it entirely, talks around the issue, reiterates their opinion over and over without any supporting knowledge to back it up, which is pretty rude and they probably don't know how to counter true reason when they read it. When that happens I don't blame people for getting less than courteous - and it is very frustrating to be in exchanges like this with people who have never learned the basic principals of true, courteous debate and who are really just spoiling for a fight, inviting the scorn they get really. And sometimes they are hiding behind their proclamations of belief or faith or using the Bible as a way to get to their real goal - which is to irritate, annoy and bring up the ire of people who disagree with them.
This is what I call "baiting" and it seems to be the real reason for many posts in the political and religion forums. Sometimes I can tell by the title of the thread that's what it is. In fact, I thought at first this thread was another such empty-headed invitation for argument - time wasting, really. But now I see you may be really sincere in wondering why people seemingly don't respect other's views sometimes - and so I jumped in to give you the reasons as I see them.
Because, opinions, as they say, are like A**H****. Everybody has one, and everyone else, thinks yours stink. Not my opinion, but that is what most people think. If someone is so dense that they just don't want to understand your point, don't waste your time. They just like to argue.
"And sometimes they are hiding behind their proclamations of belief or faith or using the Bible as a way to get to their real goal - which is to irritate, annoy and bring up the ire of people who disagree with them."
You speak only of the religious here, but you have to allow that the non-religious bait as well and that both sides "are really just spoiling for a fight." Just to be fair.
Part of the problem as stated in the OP seems to the question of what "respect" is. I can, and always will, respect a person for who they are. I find it very difficult to use the word "respect" in terms of a political or religious opinion. The person is fully entitled to hold their opinion but I feel no compunction to "respect" their opinion, if "respect means that I can't say anything against it. If I disagree, why can't I say so, and as forcefully as I like.
At the same time it is wrong and just plain bad manners to attack the person for holding those views. Respect is what is due to a person, doubt is what is due to an opinion.
Some opinions are, in my opinion, just simply wrong, and I feel free to say so. That is no disrespect to the person who holds such an opinion.
Like the opinion that creationism is a science - that is ridiculous and I will say so, while respecting the right of the person to think so. Where it gets out of hand and silly is when people who hold certain opinions which are demonstrably not based on fact want to tell me what to believe. They can believe the wrong things if they want to, just don't impose them on me.
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