Don't let this happen to you.
As most of you know my Mother is is failing health and I've been traveling a lot trying to take care of my Mom, spend as much time with her as possible and get back home for my kids, busy to say the least.
Of my 302 hubs many of them have link capsules on them including links to related hubs, I had done this before we got the new groups tab added at the bottom of the hubs.
Recently I've been trying to work my way through them taking out these links as they are now considered prohibited links, some of which are rss feeds I had added long ago.
I get a warning when I edit that looks like this,
Note: This hub is currently published. However, if you make any changes to it, it will immediately be unpublished until it has been re-approved for publication (which can take 24-48 hours).
I sent out emails two weeks ago asking why, I just got an answer today from the HubPages team that reads,
Your HubPages account has been placed on probation as a result of rules violations. All of your new and edited hubs will require moderator review in order to be published. Please ensure that your hubs meet our rules prior to publication.
Now as I edit my hubs I also see this warning,
• WARNING: This Hub is at risk of being unpublished for linking to prohibited sites
The prohibited sites are links to other hubs and hubkarma links. Once I remove all of them my hubs become unpublished.
Watch for yourself, this morning I had 302 hubs published and they are systematically being unpublished.
I don't want this to happen to anyone else so be warned. Also know this, it has always been my intention to represent the HubPages community well.
Given my circumstance and the vague explanation as to my status it is unclear to me what the state of my standing here will be. This is also bad as I was earning a good income from both Adsense and Amazon.
I have made every effort to communicate with the HubPages team and have received only the information I share with you today.
Hopefully I can prevent anyone from experiencing this hardship and I wish you all well.
Goodbye, Best Wishes and Much Success, Katie
I have hubs that I am working on to and I am revising. Due to the rules with Google these things are happening to everyone. Don' get frustrated 6 months from now, it will be just a small speck of dust. I have been here since November 2007 and have weathered the storm. If they asked me to have my hubs reviewed before posting, I would be o.k. with it because as a writer we always grown and gain something new. Hang in there, just hang in there.
I agree with you and have no problem with it, your spot on and I do feel your right.
I just want everyone to realize the changes must be made, I don't take it personally I take it as a sort of computer check list as is revised. great to hear from you AEvans
The problem is that if you are on probation and want to edit an existing hub (or Hubpages requires you to edit an existing hub) then the hub must be unpublished while pending review. Unpublishing can be detrimental not only to earnings but to search engine ranking.
Right and not to mention the time it creates for the staff to check it again for feeds, links etc.
To bad a system can't be in place to determine if the iinks feeds and such have been removed then automatically republished, the probation thing is going to create a big bottle neck for the system. I know many with pending violations and soon they will mount up...
The reason why your account was placed on probation, as stated earlier by Jason, was due to multiple violations of many rules, not just unrelated links. Simply removing the RSS feeds in a hub would not necessarily resolve all issues in that hub. Please feel free to respond via the email thread that you have started to team@ if you need further clarification of the kinds of problems we are seeing consistently in your hubs.
EDIT: In addition, your 302 hubs were not unpublished and will not be unpublished unless they are flagged by members of the community. All new and edited hubs will require review.
Violators will not be treated equally. Trying to play the system will only cause wasteful time for the staff. You had plenty of time to make the needed changes now your in a pickle. Hope they keep the slaps up. Good Luck
Katie,sorry to go all the way back to your OP, but why did you decide to take them out? Did you get an email from HP telling you they were prohibited, or when was that announced?
Marisa, Sorry to have over looked this. I got a warning on all or any hub I tried to edit, it was a red warning stating that the hub was currently published and if I made any changes it would become unpublished until it could be reviewed by a moderator. I was told after two weeks of this I was on probation for violations for prohibited links, which were either to my own sites with related content or rss feeds, hub karma links etc.
Have HP given you any assistance in all this ? I am sorry to be too lazy to go back through the thread
It would appear to me that you are having a mixture of your own problems that are being aggravated by HP. Have you tried emailing a nice letter explaining your various issues ?
I don't think so either but it's real and It's happening to me, I tell it just as it has happened.
Wow, that is crazy, especially if your links are relevant links (and to other hubs at that). I knew Clickbank was no longer allowed, and RSS feeds to your own 'Latest Hubs', but as I understood it you can place links or an RSS feed to relevant hubs to the topic you have written about. I wonder why they haven't come back to you with an answer yet!
I truly hope that the HubPages staff do look into this and work they way they did with spacey Gracy.
If your hubs are in violation of the new, revised occasionally, latest, extra bits added and newish reasons for flagging TermsOfService then they must be fixed of course.
The issue is the crappy way it is being done, to ask [sorry - demand] that the hubs be fixed but auto-unpublishing them while the mods get around to dealing with it is unreasonable and arrogant in my opinion. It is probably a breach of contract in some way to change the Terms of Service and then unreasonably reduce your income.
If this was a new hubber with a dozen hubs then it would only be rude, to do this to an experienced long term hubber is blatant stupidity and loses the 'team' more respect than them being so totally unprepared for this in the first place.
I know the HubKarma is a bit unreliable sometimes. It often chooses sites that are not always that relevant, but then again you have the choice of whatever it comes up with as options, and I am assuming you chose only hubs that were relevant to the topic. Still mystified on that basis as to what has gone wrong. Have you tried emailing Maddie Ruud directly? (she can be contacted through her profile). As she oversees the moderators she might be able to give you an immediate answer.
Thanks for the helpful support, I've done so many things wrong its hard to catch up, fix them all and in only two weeks with over 300 hubs I'm just not making the cut.
Katie, if I were you, of the hubs that I think need fixing I would be fixing the ones that pull serious traffic first. The rest are sort of unimportant.
Katie, you're not sharing the whole story.
I'm not a moderator but I can see your moderation history. Your Hubs have been moderated 43 times. These are for "old", well-established violations (not the new ones). This is a staggeringly high number. When some Hubs are moderated, we expect users to read and understand that sort of violation, and at least not make that same type of mistake again. You unfortunately have a history of making the same mistakes over and over again, which is only using up valuable moderator resources.
What your status simply does is require that a moderator review any new Hub you are about to publish or change, because we are not sure you know the rules well enough to publish immediately on your own.
If you establish a good history of submitting Hubs that are within our guidelines, that restriction can probably be lifted.
Honestly I'm confused! I am not trying to do anything but correct the problems and I am working very hard to do so!
I in no way have any intentions of airing all my dirty laundry, only helping both the moderators and the community.
As it is I'm working my way through all of my hubs to make certain I take out any rss feeds, links to unrelated hubs etc.
That's not true that all 43 violations had to do with the RSS capsule. Not even close. Why would you say that if it's not true?
You have a record of each and every violation in the form of an email that's sent to you.
My response is not to embarrass you. It's to correct misleading information you've shared in your post that unfairly makes our moderation team look bad. The reality is that you haven't been banned, and your Hubs haven't all been unpublished: your Hubs just must be reviewed by a moderator before publishing.
I never said I was banned, NEVER said that! Nor did I say they were all rss feed violations
This is pointless your taking everything I say out of context
You edited your post and took that part out. That's dishonest of you to do that and say that you never said that.
I'm done here.
Maybe we should all leave, until HubPages gets its act together.
-change Hubs to clear warning
-change Hubs to clear warning
-change Hubs to clear warning
See a pattern?
Gee, it's not like we don't all have lives and all this "fixing" isn't taking away from doing other things, including writing more Hubs.
At least we get a warning and a reason. Ehow just deleted your atticles and sometimes they told you why and sometimes they didn't and sometimes the reason was bogus.
The money was good at eHow but in the end things were pretty bad there. It's obvious that things are not going to change around here, at least not right away. So this looks like a good time to start concentrating on your own sites for a while.
Katiem2 and TerryGI both went on probation very soon after discussing on the forums the location of the | key on the keyboard. That seems to the be the "rules violation".
By talking about the pipe symbol?
I don't understand.
A moderator jumped in and said that article spinning was against the rules, and shortly thereafter they were both on probation.
Basically, the moderator did not understand the nature of the discussion and thought it looked suspicious. I think Katiem2 was discussing using SocialMonkee. It had nothing to do with article spinning. I think all TerryGI did was answer her question about the key’s location.
You would think they would require evidence of wrongdoing first. Unpublishing hubs is a form of punishment.
Oh my I had no idea that was in violation I was only trying to help. WHO knew!
Call me stupid but I'm really trying to fix my errors, REALLY I don't understand.
I don't completely understand whats going on in hubpages , Its sad though that Katiem ! One of the better quality hubbers is being flagged . I just recently visited a sight where all ten of one persons hubs were of one subject , And a hubscore 0f 95? Huh! What is hubpages trying to accomplish in driving great hubbers away. I came here just to express my written thoughts , not to make a dime or a name , I write stories and poetry . ......ehhhhhuhh, change ! always change!
And yet, these hubs are still published:
http://hubpages.com/hub/How-To-Retrieve … t-Messages
http://hubpages.com/hub/FewNicheIdeas-t … cesFlowing
http://hubpages.com/hub/Acai-Berry-Sele … ght-Choice
http://hubpages.com/hub/Blue-ocean-stra … or-success (duplicate content)
I hub hop and flag hubs like this often in an effort to do my part.
Thanks for the support Irohner, It feels better to have someone honesty point out the truth and not try to justify and honest hubbers mistakes and efforts to correct them. Thanks
Some of those will probably be getting notifications and will have a couple of weeks to fix.
For any others you find in violation of our rules, I hope you're flagging them.
I think the key word in your response is 'probably.'
I have kept track of the hubs/hubbers I've flagged, and I know what's in violation and what's not. Of the hubs/hubbers I've flagged, I also know exactly what has been pulled and what's still up -- since March 1st.
Your moderation team needs to get their priorities straight, IMHO. If you're not going to deal with things with an even hand, then don't deal with them at all.
Most of the people I know here at HP have quite a bit of common sense. I know that if your team had come up with a reasonable set of expectations, communicated them clearly and effectively and then gave folks with hundreds of hubs more than two weeks to clean things up (or just gave all of the rules out in one pass instead of dribs and drabs), attitudes might be different about now.
And honestly, I have found your attitude in dealing with hubbers rather appalling these past few weeks, and I believe you owe all of us an apology.
Keep in mind -- writers don't 'need' HP, but HP does need writers.
Thank You! It feels like an abusive situation with this guy.
I in no way intended to be attacked or discredited as being a LIAR!
This guy is scary! This was intended to be a brainstorming thread to help others and myself come to terms with the changes we need to make and what happens if you don't make them quickly enough.
I'm sorry you feel that way, Lisa.
The reason I say "probably" is for 2 reasons: 1) I'm not a moderator, so I won't be moderating any Hubs, and 2) having not read through each of those Hubs, I don't know if they're in violation or not.
If there's one thing I am absolutely sure of, it's that our moderation team applies the rules fairly. There is a bit of a backlog, as the moderation queue continues to grow, and the head moderators are very busy bringing new moderators on board, but all flags are evaluated and the Hubs flagged moderated if they're found in violation of our rules.
It's possible that some of the Hubs you've flagged are still up. If you flagged those Hubs more than a week ago, then it's because our moderators did not agree with your flag, or the Hub was modded and the Hubber corrected it to our satisfaction and it was republished.
We understand the frustration of having to deal with the new standards, but our top priority right now is getting search traffic back to quality Hubs. We realize that some people might not like that and will want to leave. We wish them well.
Really? So you mean to tell me that those hubs I just listed meet HP's standards or are not in violation? Really?
Please reread my post, as taking things out of context seems to be your new schtick. It's not that people are frustrated with the new standards. They are clearly frustrated with the lack of communication, new rules being tossed about on a whim and not enough time for folks with hundreds of hubs (and who are probably only on here part-time at best) to rectify the situation.
I, personally, didn't have enough hubs for that to affect me. But what is really ticking me off is the clear lack of priority setting and the "who give's a rat's arse" attitude of the staff towards once loyal, prolific and profitable hubbers, and the short-tempered, curt replies being posted by several members of the staff.
In other words, Jason, it's not us -- it's you.
There are a number of inaccuracies in your post, but since you're not able to communicate in a respectful fashion right now, I'm not going to respond to your message.
Irohner, you are my hero! I must admit I am not one of those great writers like katie, but I will tell you I have learned much from her hubs
If you ever flag a hub that you believe to be a violation of our rules and it is not taken down within a week, please contact us. Everything that was listed here was a rules violation and required moderation. We have doubled our moderation staff in the past month, so we should clear out this backlog soon.
Hello Katie , I understand writing is a business now ,more than ever , I think the saddest part of leaving hub pages is going to be missing people like yourself who truley care about the writing AND the encouraging of others to write. Hence , I thought , the essence of HubPages! I came here unsure of myself and new at writing and found an unbelievable community of friendly and helpfull people. Whatever is going on here seems to be driving very decent people away. That , in the old world , is not good business.! But then , being a small businessman , I have seen many great things come to an end. The best moves in business are not always the brightest . Stick with it Katie......Ed
Katie - I know how you are feeling right now and I am sorry that it has happened to you. I have fewer Hubs than you do but had to go through each one removing rss links and unfollowing aq large number of people that I had been following. Took me more thyan two weeks, I think, so I really understand the pain!
In the end it will be worthwhile though and I would hate to see you leave HubPages!
I have to admit there were times that I was greatly tempted to leave and I am now pleased that I have stuck it out.
Keep writing! You still have some positive readers.
HubPages and ALL the staff are doing the very best we can to remedy the traffic issues that were the result of the Panda update. We understand that some of the decisions will be difficult for Hubbers, however, we feel if we did nothing our chances of recovering diminish. We have hired 4 or 5 moderators since the update and the whole staff is working overtime to remedy the problems. Of course there are Hubs that are going to slip through the cracks; we are only human and thousands of Hubs are published a week. Please help us and flag those Hubs you find substandard.
The bottom line is we need our Hubbers to be helpful and understanding right now. Hubbers that insist on complaining over and over in the Forums take up our time that could be spent elsewhere. (I have basically left this same response in other posts.) The same posts with the same complaints just take our resources that could be spent making the site better for everyone. Just so you know, Jason works tirelessly for you and the other Hubbers to make the site the best it can be. He has been here since the beginning and has been an integral part in the evolution of HubPages.
We value all our Hubbers very much. This community was built on a cooperative foundation and that is tested the most during times that are difficult. We hope you stay and continue to be a part of a positive, helpful community. However, if you feel that this isn't the place for you, please go where you feel is right and we wish you the best. I hope this post ends this discussion and we can all get back to work. Kindest regards, Robin
I understand completely and as I have said in no way intended to cause trouble, this was a cautionary vent intended for others hubbers to be warned what can happen if they don't move more quickly than I have.
This is why I posted this in the Hubbers Hang Out, not a need help topic. I know what I need to do just wanted to prompt others to do the same. I in no way intended to waste anyone's time or meant to involve the staff.
Hubbers Hangout is for off topic discussions and that is what I intended to utilize this for, again a cautionary vent for other hubbers.
Best Regards to ALL
Thank you for hysterical giggles, Robin
Wasting YOUR time?!
As Iloner mentioned before, HubPages needs writers (us) more than the writers (us) need HubPages.
I think the problem is that many of the changes you are implementing are making the situation work from an organic traffic perspective.
Yes some sweeping changes needed to be made, but a lot of hubbers are having work unpublished for reasons unrelated to SEO or the rankings of Hubpages.
Since many people are currently losing traffic, chosing to unpublish or post warnings on hubs that have pixilated images, or watermarked images, or other inane details will have very little impact on site recovery.
Unfortuantely every time a hub is unpublished the entire site loses a little bit of value which will not be instantly recovered, and generally you annoy at least one writer in the process.
Firefighting the traffic drops with article deletion is a mistake which will continue to cost Hubpages traffic in a descending spiral. By all means employ some harsh moderation on duplicate content, obviosuly spun content and similar articles, but now does not seem an appropriate time to implement other quality measures which have a low bearing on SEO. Case in point - affiliate links, I don't know who told you they harm page quality, but two external affiliate links is goign to have a negligible affect on a page ranking.
I am worried that my earnings are going to continue to decline here, especially if my articles are no longer supported by a large amount of content written by other authors.
Everyone is feeling the pinch from Google. This is when the great writer will show and the good writer will go. I truly hope you all will stay here but there is many other community's that you can write for.
Now if Hubpages can not act like a company and be fair while penalizing the good Writers then why will people write for them. We want to work for a company who will work with us.
I hope everyone can get along, but until then I do not see myself writing here anymore.
Its like Hubpages ignoring my comments on my Child Abuse post. Sure they will leave certain ads on for income but they have removed all of the other ads. Tiss a Pity I guess.
I really feel for everyone that is having issues with all of this, because no one likes change at all, but what I find is a pity, is that you in particular MaineWriter were told what to do about your hubs to bring them into line with receiving ad placement back and have yet to do that simple thing and then you challenge the owners of the site because you broke a rule. Unbelievable! This is a big portion of why along with the Panda slap are why things are changing around here.
I hate that Katiem2 took a hit over a misunderstood comment in the forums, but the simple fact is all of us are taking hits in one form or another right now.
Katiem2, keep up the good fight. You are a great writer and look at this as an opportunity to spread your wings and fly ever higher.
I refuse to change my writing so I can earn .03 a day. I wrote an article about Sexual abuse and I will not change the words. Could I change it to touching abuse or fondle abuse, I do not think so. It sucks that certain words have been blacked so not my problem .
I am out and Hubpages is going no where fast. HAHA
Katie sorry that you're having problems...
There have been many valid points made on this thread... including the inability of certain staff members to communicate with hubbers as intelligent equals, as opposed to ignorant children!
Jason and Robin... You are for whatever reason.. missing many of those points that are extremely valid and tabled from the context of concern; which do not require knee-jerk or defensively aggressive reactions.
Factually, other than the Pandemic, all the current hubbers on this site have been kicked in the teeth indirectly by a set of principles that were adopted by HP and were contrary to what had been promoted to us as individuals. I refer to the 1000s of misleading articles that were condoned, provided a degree of site income and effectively represented a double standard! That I guess Google is to blame for?
A high handed attitude generally denotes arrogance where I come from.. maybe it doesn't in San Fran. but it sure as hell does not match the words being stating that you value the people who remain here!
After being banned for telling you what it is like to have your hard work stolen by article thieves, that you STILL retain as community members... what an insult, what a way to show that you care about the people here! Please do us all a favor and don't Treat Real People the way you don't appreciate being treated yourself! Most of us Are Not Ignorant... You guys have a Dollar each way on the outcome... We Don't.
It is REAL PEOPLE who make a BUSINESS.. If you are so foolish to believe that the people who question you are for some reason wrong, then you will never have Real People in your business and that very point denotes the Value of Your Business and who you are as a person! If you always remember that and you might as a 'Team' win back some of the respect that has been systematically bastardized here!
Its quite distressing to see that so many members of the community are being dealt with so little sensitivity.
I hope its apparent to everyone how inappropriate and well, crappy, the whole situation is, the users that have invested the most time into the site are the ones most negatively effected by the changes.
We get rewarded for contributing more in the past by being beat on harder and seemingly in a more rude way with every change now.
Hundreds if not thousands of pages leaving this site is a disastrous move .. even if they all deserved it, the site will suffer from all the lost backlinks and errors it will create.
I also humbly request that you ban this "Quality Noob" - its an obvious sock puppet and certainly not needed at this time. Im quite sure many will soon start flipping out on its boot licking persona.
Well Mate... If certain 'Staff Orientated' members feel it is appropriate to deal with people like us with Sock Puppets and Article Thieves.. then one (or ALL the Hubbers) really must ask the relevant questions about things like 'Duty of Care' etc.
Sadly, such BS actions do not support a very mature or professional business planning ability..
Perhaps you were right J.. about the writers mill template
I have every right to be here as you do sunforged. Can't handle the truth then humbly remove yourself then from the forums. Hubbers in repeated violations will be placed on probation just a the hubber has stated what part if the truth can't you handle sir?
It's definitely somebody trying a little too hard to make it seem like their grammar and spelling are poor, in an attempt to disguise their true identity
Nope I stumbled on this site after it made the news as being hit hard by panda. I came by to maybe start some writing but only found constant nonsense and hubbers bailing out. Total disrespect of the Hubpages staff and hubbers fighting hubbers. It's a free community now hubbers are blaming other hubbers if they are'nt happy with a response, sorry it's just plain ridiculous. I'm sure this Will guy will appreciate your concern.
I've been in the writing game far too long to fall for that one
I haven't worked out who you really are yet, but I am sure that you will trip yourself up at some point.
Nice sock puppet. It appears as if you've been here 3 weeks, yet to write a single word into a hub and publish it. Ironically, it show that you actions are no better than that of a sock puppet.
It walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, smells like a duck and looks like a duck....it must be a ducky sock puppet. Good job. You must be proud of yourself.
The funniest part is you haven't been here long enough to know sh!t. Another fact I am sure you are proud of yourself for. Good luck going forward.
Well Then... You would be best to research the whole history, instead of solely that little irrelevant piece that you state that you're sorry about!
Clearly you don't.. But if you really did expect others to take you seriously, then perhaps you shouldn't 'stumble' so pointedly at those of us who know what we are talking about!
Im sorry, my Blind Governor must have rubbed off on me, sorry for confusing you with existing members. Welcome. Your enthusiasm should be commended.
Ah yes and do note the temperament...very telling
I find his writing style to be a little wooden, to say the least.
Yeah, that could be somebody else's arse, too. Team's?
Ugly arse either way, I would say... no match to Froggy's
I know I'm a NOBODY, but I wasn't kicked in the teeth. And none of my 139 hubs was unpublished.
Why Do You refer to yourself as a Nobody?
Is it because you have taken what I said OUT Of Context!
You will get used to it. I am lucky that only 1 hub of mine had a broken link. It will take some time to get used to this new rule but after some Months it will be nothing!
"Qualitynoob on HubPages
Grumpy old person with to much time on their hands. Passing gas and reading through substandard hubs, weeding out the dead weight. Maybe I'll right a hub some day."
Just what we need.
Well that's cool... they've finally got an expert to 'Hop' Hubs.. they don't need our efforts.. this one will bring some balance to that one legged exercise!
Mind you - It is a bit sus when a Sock claims to have time on it's 'Hands' instead of it's Foot!
Yeah someone qualified to state what is substandard when they can't even spell correctly themselves!
hehe - Its real identity can spell perfectly well.
It might want to delete its sockpuppet account very soon or its identity may well be revealed. Apart from the fact that using a sockpuppet to cause trouble in the forum is a banning offence, it has also proved that it is a liar by claiming that it is new here.
They always slip up somewhere along the line
Hey Katie....hope you get things ironed out. This is a crappy situation. I've always enjoyed your hubs.
Can we all sit in a harmony circle and hold hands chanting kumbayah?
Folks, if Panda is as bad as you say it is, I'm betting that HP has had quite a struggle to recover, which saddens me, since this product has tremendous potential. I just joined 3 weeks ago, and this state of uncertainty with Google search is troublesome to say the least.
In business, decisions have to be made, they have to be made quickly, otherwise we all suffer. Your flexibility, patience, and understanding is appreciated during these growing pains. Our content is a business and as such we have to react accordingly to the needs of the market.
I plan to stick it out. In times of uncertainty, consistency is key. My focus is on the writing, developing my niche, and followers.
There are lots of great writers here, and I would encourage you to hang on! I'll do what I can to add a little sparkle your day!
Hands across the water,
Panda was not THAT bad. Reaction to Panda is terrible...
True Misha, my daughters online business is taking off like a rocket!
It seems more to do with cleaning out content farms in my view than a general attack on the web.
The article placement in Google search is a mess at this time though as I see it.
No something is terribly wrong. Before migrating my blog content to HubPages I had lost 50% of my traffic on my blog as many others have too. I wasn't a content farmer or affiliate spammer. There are others who are experiencing the same issue.
Reading this re/ original post, hubbers do have other things going on in their lives apart from writing.
Sometimes I have found the solution to the moving goal post scenario is to walk off the pitch, not too spite anyone just to simplify the situation.
I had built up a 'picture' of the way to put together hubs, my traffic was increasing, but now it does not seem worth trying, I cannot predict what the future holds.
I am going to go back to writing because I love words, I really cannot waste time with worrying about SEO words or how readers will find me. The people I feel sorry for are the ones who had been building up an income on here.
If one of your hubs is permanently unpublished here or you want to move it elsewhere, how long would you have to leave before reposting the content so that no duplicate flags are triggered?
I think it was RyanKett that said they need to be unpublished for about 4 days to a week or so to allow time for Google to de-index them.
Thanks for the info Misty - never know when I will need it!
I tried doing this and two weeks later it was still indexed.
I just want to say that I support HP staffs 110%. Weeding out top rated writers along with their high quality hubs is the best move you could possibly make. I'm sure in the near future my substandard hubs will become the new standard and third rate writers such as me will thrive on hp. Thank you all
Idel hands make much work, too many chiefs and not enough indians
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