How should this be handled?
I am pretty sure discretion would be best, but unfortunately, I am not in the mood. And, since I am not in the mood, it is being made public.
I am requesting publicly that this person to be permanently banned from HP. It is uncalled for, shows no respect for fellow members or even human beings.
And, many people may disagree with how I am handling it and that is too bad.
Here is a copy of an email I received from another member.
mr. daydream (firstname.lastname@example.org) mr. daydream on HubPages
has sent you this message.
(email address verified)
Choke on a gay hollywood dick and go str8 2 hell Fagsil!
The problem here is this individual fails to understand the consequences of their actions and also fails to realize or understand that every action, has an opposite and equal reaction. So, I guess this person didn't see this coming.
This is also a warning for any other individual who wants to take these types of steps.
This is uncalled for and I agree they should be banned.
I would generally advocate discretion in a situation like this, Cags, but this behavior is deplorable. I read through the thread where your initial encounter took place today, and even there, his treatment was hateful, inappropriate, and even threatening, in my opinion. I understand being "not in the mood" sometimes, and generally I try to wait until I'm a little more clearheaded. You, however, have every right to bring this to the attention of the staff and your fellow hubbers. We have a right to be prepared and enlightened before we encounter the same type of attitude.
I'm sorry people can be jerks.
Hey Motown, please don't apologize for other people. It's about time people learn that with every action comes consequence and reaction.
My reaction is only to point out this individual's actions, which was intentionally hidden via email, on purpose. This individual apparently didn't use rational thought when he sent the email. And, since he chooses to not see the reaction coming from his action, he was to be made an example of.
By doing so, it will encourage other members to hold others accountable for their actions. I have heard time and again, other Hubpages members have had to deal with the abusive nature of many who are religious(not counting you) and their pathetic antics.
These same people claim a higher moral ground, but their own actions show that they haven't a clue of what moral ground actually is. That's all.
You did nothing wrong, so no need for you to apologize. I have accepted this person is as they are because they choose to be that way. I don't have to tolerate their actions, because their actions were completely unacceptable to begin with.
Maybe I should have worded it differently. I wish people didn't have to be jerks. It doesn't cost anything to be decent.
I'm right with you and think this approach is perfect! Sorry about the situation, what an a$$.
Well kudos to you Cagsil for sticking up for yourself, as it's obvious this guy is an idiot.
Although, I do feel sorry for the guy to purposely leave what looks like his full name in that e-mail address, as I know employers will probably frown upon that comment if they happen to come across this thread if he tries to look for a job in the near future.
However, as you said, he never should've done it to begin with, and it does look like he needs a proper lesson for his obvious lack in maturity.
He definitely is showing his true self.
And, that was my whole point of pointing out his actions. Now, should any other consequences and/or reactions come from his initial action, he only has himself to blame.
He needs a proper lesson, but in many areas he is obviously lacking....
Time to take out the trash.
Those who would go as far as this to support their obvious homophobia have other mental problems that should be shared with a therapist.
Is the offender gone yet?
Nope, but also called me an a$$hole in another thread.
@Wilderness, I plan on sending the original email to staff, but wanted to make it public, to prove a point, which was in my OP(last sentence or two).
Oh, I agree with making it public - I think that's a great move. I just thought it should be brought directly to the attention of staff rather the solely through this thread.
Well done, Cagsil. I might suggest forwarding the email to HP, with the same request. It will provide better "proof". Whatever, don't lost that email.
It seems to me that this constitutes "abuse" and steps taken to prevent same in the future should be an easy call.
He got ugly very quickly in one thread when anyone disagreed with him.
I knew when starting to read this post, which hubber you were referring to. It is particularly offensive and this site could do without such bigots.
well, of course he should be banned - but, Cags, I wish you hadn't posted that email in the forums - it would have been quite enuf just to say you had received a really scurrilous email from him - we would have believed you - I hate to see that kind of stuff and often think that repeating it the way you did is pretty much almost as bad as sending something like it - even though it wasn't directed at us we had to see it - oh well. things sure escalate rapidly around here. another reason I've been staying away from forums lately. pewh! the stench!
The email has been sent to three separate people on Staff.
Fawntia, Maddie and Jason.
This individual definitely needs to be taught a lesson..or two.
I'm sorry about that Cags. I can't deal with arguing online. We have too many fights to put up in our face-to-face interactions, and our daily life to go online to get abused. Which is why I've been criticized for not having anything to say in these forums. Whatever.. I've always thought that if you have nothing good to say, don't say anything at all.
And, if you are trying to make a point, there are better ways of doing it. I hope they do something about it.
Cags, you rock. This guy is WAY out of line and has no place among the finer HubPages people such as yourself. Whatever you need to do to get this maniac banned from HP, is just all right by me! Let me knnow where I can offer my support my friend. Hub Hugs!
You don't need to email it to the staff - each email you get sent has a report button on it which will immediately notify the staff anyway. I've used it before and seen a user banned.
I can understand your anger; the guy will get pulled- i would not generally advocate the action you took as the guy is probably attracted to all the fuss he is making. However I can understand why you did it and why you would find it distressing.
Anger? I wasn't so much angry about it. I found it lacking in so many areas. I am also not distressing about it. I found it strange that because I defend someone's rights and/or that someone else feels the need to defend someone's rights, that this individual came to the conclusion I was gay, which isn't the case. How he came to that conclusion made no sense.
Whether or not you were gay is not the point. This person was totally disrespectful, not only to you but all gay persons and to HP.
I have just looked at this person's profile, in which they describe coming to hubpages in peace. Further, they write that they could not work for a bigot. How ironic.
Maybe he felt that Cagsil was pushing him out of the closet and he didn't want to go? There must have been something floating around inside that round chunk of bone....
Did he really think he could get away with something like that?
The forums is not a place to insult or disrespect anyone, let alone invading someone's privacy by emailing them that crap.
BANNED!!! I say.
I just found the original post that this person started. He not only insulted you but most everyone who replied.
I think his intention was not to get unbiased feedback but for everyone agreeing with his retarded way of thinking. He even called someone in the thread a 'moron'.
Again, it shows his true self. It's sad when people fail to see what their own actions do and say about themselves.
I also went and read the other thread and now I understand why Cagsil posted his email here in forums. But what I can't fully understand is what, for heaven's sake, drove this person to write such a nasty email, based on a forum thread. Wasn't it enough that he called Cagsil a$$hole and the other person, a moron? ... me thinkz not, eh!
Hey Cagsil - Sorry you had to deal with something like this. I'm torn regarding your approach to handling it but feel that whatever your purpose is (in handling it this way) it will be served.
Playing devils advocate here, but I'm not sure as I would suggest a banning from Hubpages in total. Maybe from the forums.
I just don't know if I'm comfortable with people being banned because of what is, essentially, a private argument. Yes he was out of line, but he was out of line in a private email. I don't think that a body of writing should be judged or limited by a person's interactions with others. If he is using his hubs as a platform to a writing career then HP could be hurting his career based on, essentially, a nasty spat between co workers.
He should be banned for his actions that happened in the forums, just for that alone, be unable to post to the forums.
A private argument? How is a public forum a private argument? The email wasn't a private argument or even a conversation of some sort.
He was out of line completely, in every action he did.
Co-workers? What do you think Hubpages is? We don't work for HP. We don't work with each other. We are independent publishers of articles. To see his profile, his hubs and his actions, speaks volumes about his true self. Apparently, he didn't give much thought to any of it and wasn't concerned about his own career(if that's what it was or is).
I appreciate your comment.
I totally disagree. In a traditional workplace this type of "nasty spat" would be seen as sexual harrassment and could lead to the offender being fired. The offender should have considered that before instigating the "nasty spat". jmho
Personally, I think the dude should be banned totally and his account closed. That is a hate crime message, as well as out of line. It's also a form of abuse, even without the reference of 'fagsil'. I'm sure he's reading these posts as we contribute.
Sorry, the coworker thing was a metaphor. Apparently not an particularly apt one.
Cagsil, you are upset. I would be upset too. His language was inappropriate as was the personal attack. I'm just worried about slippery slope. I.E. if I piss someone off, am I going to be banned? Cause honestly, I'm probably going to piss someone off on the forums at some point... hell, I've probably done it with just what I've posted in this thread.
My articles are going to piss people off.
I'm sure you have pissed people off too. Obviously this guy for one.
So, at what point does name calling become bannable? If someone calls me a b***h do I have the right to have them banned? What if they've written 100 hubs? Do they all go as well?
And, obviously, hubpages IS a business... So, why is your offense worth the loss of revenue for them from his articles.
Again, nothing personal, this whole thing has the feel of a vendetta though.
When you send abusive messages through HubPages email that is definitely a bannable offence.
Actually, I am not upset about it. I am just pointing out the actions that this particular individual took.
It's not about pissing someone off. Many of my hubs have pissed off some readers. It's about the utter lack of respect for people and ignorance displayed by his actions.
You cannot please everyone and to try to is futile. I don't think you have pissed off anyone in this thread, because many people are not going to take your words as harmful. You're just pointing out a specific view, which isn't a problem.
Breaking the rules of the forums and of HP in general is how one can be banned. I know, I've been banned from the forums several times.
I made a request to HP, but it doesn't mean that they are going to agree with me. But, doesn't mean, I cannot ask.
It's not actually. I only pointed out his actions and I suspect the consequences will be harsh, from my past experiences. Again, it's only a request, but HP doesn't have to do as I asked. It is their business.
First, I agree with Cagsil, this guys actions are reprehensible and indefensible, as to banning him, well I guess that will bring him back in another guise, and another sock puppet will surface.
These forums are a public place, one which I mainly ignore as they seldom produce more than hot air (including myself in that category)normally a place for people to rant or express their anger, or enjoy some aggressive baiting of others.
On rare occasions we all learn something from them.
What he needs is to see that as a community, despite differing opinions, we shun people who are abusive.
This guy is obviously (from his actions)mentally under developed and needs to garner a whole heap more wisdom before he should be allowed to take the training wheels off and spout off in a place where slightly more advanced thinkers play.
Publishing his email address was classic, wonder how many emails he has had already telling him what we think!
I certainly hope nobody is sending him emails! That would only serve to fan the flames and create a situation where many hubbers could be banned. I don't think it's a good idea.
I don't expect anyone to send him emails and the email address wasn't posted for that reason. The reason for the email being posted was because it had his name, which was part of his oversight, with regards to overall point.
He opened the floodgates and apparently didn't completely understand the consequences of his actions.
If any hubber sent him an email via HubPages, yes they could get banned, however the moment he sent an email to Cagsil, he left the 'security' of the hubpages TOS by revealing his real name and address to Cagsil, and once his email has been posted, anybody sending him an email directly (as of not via HubPages) is not infringing any TOS of HubPages (though as it would be uninvited, they would be guilty of 'spamming' him).
I'm not suggesting anyone should send him mail, but merely indicating that when he wrote abuse to Cagsil, he opened the door to reprimand by anyone seeing his address.
Personally I would hope to think that this public rejection of his actions should have him cringing and in deep reflection, I know by now (had I been stupid enough to do such a thing) I would be looking inside myself to try and find any bit of me that I could believe made me less of a jerk.
Especially as he chose Cagsil to try that rubbish on, does the man have no sense, Cagsil is one of our most eloquent writers with a very precise manner of dealing with idiots!
Dang it, I wish I knew how to break a post down in quotes...
Anyway, to Aguasilver... please don't get the idea that I am defending his actions, I'm not. But sorta, to a point, I do.
Not the Gay reference of course, but the right to call someone a moron or likewise. Also the right to tell someone to go to hell. I do that all the time. In an area where debate is encouraged, that's going to be a common occurrence.
You all have made some valid points that I concede to concerning abuse. I guess now my question is what is considered abuse? My response to the email would have been something along the lines of "homophobic much?" and then a delete. I'm not sure I would have considered even reporting it. And the reason I say that isn't to devalue Cagsil's feelings, but to show the difference in BS tolerance between individuals. With different personalities, how does a definition of abuse get formed that protects both the rights of expression and the right to not be abused? I'm really not being philosophical here, is there a clear definition somewhere on hubpages that I haven't seen?
Melissa, when you hit reply, above the box is a clickable link "import and edit the quote". Click on it and it will put the entire quote in your box in front of you. Make sure that when you break down the quote that you have a quote command at the beginning and a "/"quote command at the end of each section you want to break apart.
HP has rules for conducting oneself.
And you would have given that person the one thing they do not actually have- your primary email address. They have to use the contact link on your profile, which forwards an email to your primary email account. If you respond to any email, then that particular person will automatically get your email address. Thus, giving them power to contact you at any given time of their own choosing.
Again, I disagree with you. I feel calling names is abusive as is telling someone where to go. Why? Because it's disrespectful, and I believe disrespect is the core to abuse.
I also do not believe debate has to be disrespectful. Seriously, if someone is debating with me and becomes disrespectful I'll confront them about it - because I wont put up with it. Common occurrence or not, wrong is wrong.
Regarding how you would respond to such an email - I think that kind of response is akin to giving permission for that type of behavior to continue. Ignoring bad behavior isn't going to solve the problem.
Not to point out the obvious, but the person that sent the email has been called various names throughout this thread.
I didn't say that debate should become disrespectful, just that it does become disrespectful frequently. In frustration the perfectly P.C. sentence "I feel you are being unreasonable and unaccepting of different viewpoints" frequently becomes "You are being stubborn" just as "All scientific evidence points to this conclusion" becomes "Can you not read?" which quickly becomes "You are a moron" We are not automatons, human exasperation happens, especially when debating topics that we feel strongly about.
As far as telling someone where to go... I honestly feel that there are times that this is appropriate and can be done in a nonabusive way. For me it is a strongly worded indication that an argument is over and will work when other methods do not.
In addition, just because something hurts someones feelings does not mean it is abuse. Nor are all insults abuse. There is a thin and fluid line between between being abused and being oversensitive. (I am not saying Cagsil is oversensitive, he is obviously on the clear side of the line here)
But if I would say "I believe all homosexuals are going to hell" (Which I don't by the way, just an example) That is offensive, but not abusive. Offensive statements are part of life. Abusive would be "I'm going to kill you in your sleep because you are gay"
As for ignoring it, I must respectfully disagree with you, I have found that ignoring and/or laughing at the rantings of an abuser is exactly the way to stop them. I have an incredibly abusive ex-husband that was brought up short when I started laughing at his insults towards me. Best advice ever given to me and it was by an abuse counselor.
If someone is obviously going out of their way to get under your skin, acknowledging it in any way is exactly what they want. That's why stalkers LOVE restraining orders. It lets them know that someone is taking them seriously.
Huh, it must come down to different life experiences then.
I've laughed at an abuser once...and had a glass of water thrown in my face. Once when I told someone where to go I was thrown backward into a wall. I seriously do not recommend this type of approach. As for using strong language, I believe it can be done without telling someone where to go, and without using foul language, thereby being respectful while asserting my rights and / or position.
I may have misstated my position - I believe calling names is disrespectful. I also believe disrespect leads to abuse as I believe disrespect is the core of abuse. However, I don't believe disrespect always leads to abuse. (some people can just be plain rude! but rudeness doesn't equal abuse)
I understand what you're saying about debates becoming heated which leads to calling names and other disrespectful behaviors. What I am saying is that it doesn't have to be that way. Debates would go further toward solving the issue IF the debaters used a little restraint / self-control and behaved like grown ups rather than little children. Just because disrespect in a debate is a common occurrence doesn't make it the right thing to do.
Insults are meant to cause harm, are they not? (in the way of hurt feelings or offending someone) The way I see it, the person throwing out insults chooses to attack another human being in order to feel better about themselves - the same thing an abuser does. Nope, can't accept insults as an innocent bystander.
I agree with your statement about offensive vs abusive, but not your abusive statement. That statement is clearly a threat.
Ya know, I grew up ignoring all the disrespect, laughter, and abuse that came my way (not just from family, but from classmates too). Let me tell ya, it didn't stop just because I grew up. Nope, ignoring it taught me that it's okay for other people to kick me around as much as they want - because they'll never tire of it. Ignoring it also taught others that it's okay for them to treat other people however they choose because there are no consequences. A totally lose / lose situation.
Firstly, I am sorry for what happened to you.
I was prepared for that, or something like it. If he would have hit me, I would have laughed louder. It was my way of telling him that he was powerless over me. I threw as much distain as possible into that laugh. It was a freeing exercise. Even if he would have beaten me to death, from the moment that laugh left my lips it would have been impossible for him to abuse me. So I must respectfully disagree with the not recommending portion of your statement. The first step to recovering from abuse is to demand that you will never allow yourself to be a victim again, no matter how hard the world tries to make you one.
Actually, power and control are at the core of abuse. In this case I don't technically see that. Unless he was trying to force Cagsil to see his point of view by degrading him... which is possible I guess. Honestly, I think he was just being an arse. And while I agree that all abusers are arses, not all arses are abusive.
I agree, but I also realize that humans aren't always going to do the right thing and some things are wronger than others.
No, I don't think all insults are meant to cause harm, or people would never say they are sorry. An occasional insult from an otherwise normal well-adjusted person is generally a sign of frustration and not really meant to be hurtful. Even the nicest people in the world have occasionally flipped off another driver who almost caused an accident. I'm not talking about bullying here, I'm talking about heat of the moment slips (which is what is most likely to occur in a debate setting). Habitual abuse and constant taunting are not done by well-adjusted individuals.
You do realize that there was/is nothing you could ever do to stop another persons behavior right? Your passiveness didn't teach anyone anything any more than confronting them would have.
Its not a matter of ignoring it, it is a matter of refusing to let it impact you. Its a totally different thing. It sounds (and this isn't meant to be mean at all, I actually feel a lot of empathy for you) like you accepted it and learned to live with it rather than ignoring it.
There is and never will be any consequence to stop someone from being abusive unless they want to stop. Jail, being band from a forum, having the crap beat out of them... nothing. The idea of consequences for someone that is abusive is laughable. They don't care.
This is quite interesting.
I can't accept laughter as a "freeing exercise" if it could possibly lead to death. I do not see death as freedom. (I understand the concept but what you explain makes no sense to me) I also disagree with your first step to recovering from abuse - the first step is acknowledging you've been abused. (what's the point in demanding to never again be a victim if you deny you were a victim to begin with?)
I notice that I said disrespect is the core of abuse, and you said power and control are at the core of abuse. Power and Control are centered around disrespect. I say this because respectful people do not have power and control issues.
In general insults are meant to cause harm - that is the sole purpose of insults. Whether an individual has a lapse in judgment and releases an insult is a different matter, but if an individual purposely and consistently uses insults to cause harm then that individual is choosing to attack another human being in order to feel better about themselves. Which is what an abuser does. (the abuser just doesn't realize it doesn't work that way)
Heat of the moment slips = a lack of self-control. Grown ups w/o self-control are nothing more than large children with anger issues. (remember, I'm talking about consistent & purposeful heat of the moment slips - occasional slips are part of the human condition)
I totally disagree with you - Standing up for yourself tells others that you can and will defend yourself. My passivity taught others that there were no consequences to their actions, hence, they continued. They learned, through my inaction, that what they were doing was okay. I refused to allow it to impact me because I had a future!! - but you know what? That only lasted until I was in my 30's and discovered that it was never going to stop. There is only so much a body can withstand before it begins to collapse.
Abusive people do care - they don't want to be hurt.
That ol' delete button is a handy and under-utilised tool.
There isn't even a clear definition in the real world never mind Hub Pages, which is often rather short of clear definitions these days.
BTW if you want to see how I broke your post up into quotes, just hit the Reply button and all will become clear.
I think all who post on the Forums should read the rules before doing so.
Rosie take a look at the rules:-
ok, got it. I never used to read other forums' threads except in ask help, knowledge exchange, and used to be hubmob. Now I'm reading other topics and I'm amazed what hubbers can get away here in forums.
This is exactly Cagsil's point. This needs to stop.
I don't think he started this thread only because it became personal. I think a lot of people have been getting away with this kind of behavior and this one went a bit too far. This kind of thing needs to be nipped in the bud...if you know what I mean.
LOL, thank you Empress, I got it. Obviously, I don't post much
I think this says it all:
"Do not threaten, harass, or spam our members.
Emails sent through HubPages are logged, and we will cooperate with legal investigations.
Violation of these rules will result in your account being closed."
It is fine to call each other names in the forum, within reason...but it is a completely different matter when they email you.
Regardless as to what is or isn't an insult worthy of banning...people have been banned from HubPages for a lot less.
Not only that, but it is subjectively based on what moderators of the forums think is or qualifies as an attack/insult. We, as a members, can only report those who we feel have done so. It doesn't mean that any action will actually be taken.
Just an added thought.
I'm sorry as well Cagsil, I didn't mean to hijack either.
To Rafini: I agree to disagree people survive abuse in different ways.
Hey Melissa, everyone handles situations and/or circumstances differently. Don't worry about hi-jacking the thread. It's not a problem. I can understand we each have different was of dealing with the things we've had in our lives, but when we stop to consider how we handled it, is the difference in which tells us whether or not, we learned and moved on.
Those who don't. Possess a level of regret, which leads them to be unable to let go of the past and see their own future. It was one reason I wrote the hub- "The Past, The Present or The Future- Which Controls Your View?"...to give people something to think about.
Our experience are cast aside while we are on HP, because it doesn't actually matter with regards to this subject matter. We can only do what we can to protect ourselves and one another against the actions of others, and let moderators work it out for us.
@Melissa - not only that, but not all abusers are alike.
If anything, something will be learned from this thread, which is always my reasoning for doing anything I do.
Thank you everyone. I appreciate the input everyone has offered.
OK I have to go there because I say it as I see it.
There is a fine line between abuse and insults, HOWEVER leaving emails or other forms of communication which would seem threatening or abusive in reference to someones religious beliefs, sexual orientation or preference, ethnic origin, and several more could be considered or construed as a hate crime and POSSIBLY be considered for prosecution.
There is a HUGE difference between telling someone they are stupid or you believe they will go to hell for their sexual gender preferences than telling them to choke and calling them a ***.
I am glad his words and actions were posted so I do not visit, view, or add to any income of someone who can be so despicable and vial against another human being.
That's my 2 cents for what it's worth and you can take it or leave it.
Good morning, Cagsil, Wrylit is correct. The best thing to do is report the email by clicking on the spam or abuse button at the bottom of the email. It will send a copy of the email to staff and we take those violations very seriously. I get spam emails once in a while and report them. Cheers!
Good Morning Robin. I have sent a copy of the email to Jason, Maddie and Fawntia. If you would like, then I will report the email, if that is what you would like.
However, I opened this thread to get other people's attention, as well as staff. I am sick and tired of people of this nature continuing on here at HP and those who are willing to go the extra mile to spout of similar junk, should have to see that their own actions have consequences and reactions.
Hey Robin, I have reported the email via the abuse link provided in the email. But, as my previous posts says, I did send it to those other Staff members, so don't be surprised if you manage to hear from them about it.
I think it's absolutely fine that you emailed HubPages as well, Cags. Was this a direct attack on you because of interaction that you had with the user in the forums? If it is not taken care of today, it will be tomorrow when everyone is back at work. Hope you can manage to have a great Sunday despite it all!
Robin, the link below is to another thread. I grabbed the link from the second page of the thread. His post in that page coincides with his email to me, after our slight discussion.
I am having a great weekend. His email and posts in the forum did nothing to prevent that from happening. I am not distressed or angry about it. I was only pointing out that his actions had consequences and reactions, which apparently he was unaware of.
I'm strange on things of this nature. I like pointing out the actions of people, because half the time they fail to see the consequence and/or the reaction they are going to get from said action.
Glad you're still having a good weekend! The user has been banned from the forums for two weeks because of hate speech in that forum thread. I will look into it tomorrow regarding the email. Cheers!
Thank you Robin. Very much appreciated. I hope you have a pleasant(rest of) weekend.
Of course you did the correct thing, Ray! And the email should take care of this person if HP handles this incident correctly. But we will wait and see.
First time I saw this thread and I'm glad the other hubber is banned. Sorry to hear you've received such an email Cags but, despite this, you still had a great week-end so I just want to say, have a great week also .
These are what I call "YouTube comments". Brainless, spineless, infuriating, inappropriate, rude, etc. There's no place for this IQ level on HP. I've been attacked too. Really gets your goat, because there's no way to strangle someone through your computer........You had every right to post this. He lost his rights when he sent it. He probably crawled back to YouTube where he belongs....
Well Stan, I only posted it, because I was absolutely positive that this particular individual didn't bother to review the consequences and/or reaction of their actions.
I appreciate your take on it and I'm glad you stopped by the thread to post your view.
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