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Erm What?

  1. thisisoli profile image65
    thisisoliposted 5 years ago

    So I had a read through the ToS and there is plenty of dubious bum covering in there, however the thing that really caught my attention was this particular section.

    "The Amazon Program earnings for Your Hubs are advertising fees based on: i) a percentage of qualifying revenues from transactions that occur on Amazon via a referral of a user from Your Hubs, ii) a cost-per-click fee for valid referrals from Your Hubs, or iii) as an alternate formula that HubPages selects. The earnings formula may not be identical across all HubPages Earnings Program accounts that run the Amazon Program."

    So what this basically means is that we might not get paid based on direct sales commissions, we may be placed under another CPC Model, Hubpages may make up some formula to 'judge' what we earn, and worst of all, you can pick and choose which earning methods go on which accounts, something very shady indeed.

    TOS inclusions such as this leave me with absolutely zero confidence in Hubpages being out for my best interests anymore.  You can make a TOS that covers you, no problem there, but what is suggested here seems worrying to say the least.

    Again please dont force us in to the Amazon Hubpages Earnings program.  I simply cannot afford to keep my content under rules as ambiguous as this.

    1. EmpressFelicity profile image83
      EmpressFelicityposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Wow. Especially the bit about them being able to "pick and choose" who gets what earning model.

    2. gabgirl12 profile image61
      gabgirl12posted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I still don't understand what all this means, and how it will be detrimental. I've seen a steady increase in my earnings. But, I'll definitely follow this thread to find out more. It's never a bad idea to be informed.

      1. 2uesday profile image88
        2uesdayposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        One thing that the change will mean is that all of your earnings apart from Adsense will be coming to you through HubPages. You will be dependent on HubPages for what you earn here apart form the Adsense payments.


        But that is not what is being discussed here. To over simplify it - as yet (as far as I know) no one yet knows for sure how the money they earn from Amazon will be structured and the levels of payment for sales through your hubs.

    3. IzzyM profile image84
      IzzyMposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      This is worrying. I don't want to go on to a CPC model. I've always down a lot better here with Amazon than I ever did with Adsense or HPads. HP must know thing - they get 40% of my sales. Or maybe they don't. Amazon reports aren't that detailed, unless HP has already set up a new affiliate tracking code for each user, which I imagine they have.

      CPC would mean I earn less, but they earn more? or what? I don't get a lot of clicks, but I do get a high percentage of sales. I want to stay under that model.

  2. Cagsil profile image83
    Cagsilposted 5 years ago

    I'll remove my Amazon stuff from my hubs, not that I make much from them, if this is how Hubpages is planning on handling this entire mess.

    1. 0
      Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I make stuff all from amazon too, but it's disappointing to see dodgey stuff still. I was starting to regain confidence in HP

      1. Cagsil profile image83
        Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I'm still on the fence about HP's revival. It seems like some of the changes made were good, but some of the changes were meaningless also.

  3. 2uesday profile image88
    2uesdayposted 5 years ago

    It may sound like a stupid question but how do Hubbers know which one they will be allocated to and how it is allocated?

    The current Amazon arrangement seems to be 'transparent' in that you cross a threshold and you are on the next tier.

    1. Cagsil profile image83
      Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Good question, but unfortunately no Staff member has been "transparent" about the new and upcoming program.

  4. sunforged profile image64
    sunforgedposted 5 years ago

    wow ...

    Super devious! There is no way to explain this one away.

  5. 2uesday profile image88
    2uesdayposted 5 years ago

    Thank you thisisoli, for posting this as I had not noticed the information until you did.

    Sorry another question from me does this quote from an announcement match up to the above terms -

    from the official announcements - 

    "What is the new Amazon Program that HubPages has announced?

    Starting in early December, Hubbers can participate in the Amazon Associates program directly from HubPages. HubPages offers a very high Amazon commission tier because the volume across HubPages is aggregated for the benefit of all participants. The program will track referrals from your Hubs and the resulting purchase activity on Amazon. You will accrue into your HubPages Earnings Program balance from this activity, based on a commission from transactions on Amazon that occur after a referral from your Hubs."

    As I said that is from the official announcement, to me it does not sound like the three options in the terms.  Hopefully I am wrong on this as I am not use to 'business talk/clauses' etc.

    But it does say ' HubPages offers a very high Amazon commission tier because the .... and goes on to say for the benefit of all participants. ' 

    so the announcement does not refer to variations in levels of payment and possible alterations. A badly performing month across the board and what happens can the percentage paid go down as and when ?

    1. David 470 profile image85
      David 470posted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Wait, so Amazon is going to be incorporated directly in HubPages Earning program - just like Ebay was incorporated? What if we already use Amazon?

      I have some money from Amazon, but can not be paid until I fill out tax info. etc..

      1. wilderness profile image97
        wildernessposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Then you best get it filled out.

        Using the HP amazon program is voluntary only until the first of the year.  At that time you will be switched over whether you like it or not.

      2. QuestionMaster profile image89
        QuestionMasterposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        This is the reason I'm now working on getting Amazon product links up in lots of OTHER places, since HP will soon no longer be putting $$ into my Amazon account.

  6. sunforged profile image64
    sunforgedposted 5 years ago

    I think those terms are truly nutty.

    They arent doublespeak .. thye are pretty clear, clearly, we go from having independent, transparent sensible reporting that works off a simple principle of more sales = more money/higher percentage tiers ... to a garbled, we pay you what we want as we please HUbpages way.

    WHether they choose to utilize amazon that way remains to be seen, but they certainly set the stage for a good buggering of your amazon earnings

  7. HikeGuy profile image84
    HikeGuyposted 5 years ago

    "or iii) as an alternate formula that HubPages selects. The earnings formula may not be identical across all HubPages Earnings Program accounts that run the Amazon Program."

    That's disturbing. What I liked about HP was its -- former -- transparency. Many rev share sites keep the details of how they allocate revenue a mystery -- something I could never go along with. It's unpleasant to see HP taking this direction.

    Almost unbelievable. Good motivation to keep diversifying. I hope there will be an official response to this. This changes my whole take on HP.

    1. 0
      Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      yes, very weird and dodgy

  8. LindaSmith1 profile image60
    LindaSmith1posted 5 years ago

    So what does that statement mean, HP is going to play favorites??????

  9. LeanMan profile image81
    LeanManposted 5 years ago

    So lots of fluff in the forum about HP as a whole being able to get the higher commission band from Amazon - but they may not give you your share of actual revenue!!!

  10. LeanMan profile image81
    LeanManposted 5 years ago

    This is an important issue and needs an answer - Oli... maybe you should have chosen a better title to get it read more and commented on!! Don't want to start a new thread so guess just have to comment to bump it to the top of the page...

    1. mistyhorizon2003 profile image90
      mistyhorizon2003posted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I agree, this might be worth re posting 'Oli' with a more appropriate title to get people to look in and read the content.  At least if you do you can link from here to the new forum thread so these posts get read as well.

      1. Cagsil profile image83
        Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this
      2. 0
        Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        do we trust HP?

    2. wilderness profile image97
      wildernessposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Yes, I would really like to see some comment from HP on this - it's like it was snuck into the TOS while being carefully kept from the forum announcements.

      Unfortunately, we probably won't see anything until at least Friday and likely Monday.

  11. prairieprincess profile image97
    prairieprincessposted 5 years ago

    Wow, I agree that this changes everything when looking at Hubpages. We need some answers quickly. I was just getting ready to do a bunch of Amazon hubs and now it's up in the air.

    1. Cagsil profile image83
      Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Hey Prairie,

      I was just considering doing a 30 hubs in 30 days challenge and a majority of the hubs were going to be Amazon sales hubs.

      But, I guess that's on hold now.

      1. prairieprincess profile image97
        prairieprincessposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Cagsil, wow, me too! I had started the challenge at the start of the month, and was going to try to still finish it off with some sales hubs for the Christmas.

      2. Will Apse profile image89
        Will Apseposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Many of us have qualms about these changes. I suppose I am willing to wait and see  what happens on the basis that Hubpages will be taking their forty per cent and so have every motive for maximizing the returns.

        The issue is- will they maximize their returns by advantaging the majority while disadvantaging the minority who do very well as things stand?

        All of this goes back to one word in Paul Edmondson's original announcement of the Amazon deal. He said 'most' people will benefit. Perhaps that word is less significant than we have made it out to be. Perhaps not.

        1. Cagsil profile image83
          Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          And how is your post relevant to my post Will? It's not. So why reply to my post?

          It has nothing to do with what I had planned and how I will proceed forward. So, thank you for adding no value. hmm

          1. Will Apse profile image89
            Will Apseposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            I made a mistake. Deary me.

            You on the other hand are a ...

            Well, it is not worth saying since so many others have said it to you already.

            1. Cagsil profile image83
              Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              A mistake?

              Someone who has been around the forums for 2 years and posted 1,277 posts, and you made a mistake? Yeah right.

              As for what I am? Is none of your concern and you telling me is none of my concern.

              Let's just leave it at that.

              1. Will Apse profile image89
                Will Apseposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Believe me it was a mistake. I never read your posts. I certainly wouldn't respond to one deliberately.

                It has been an unpleasant enough experience for me to be much more careful in future about hitting the right button to post in a thread.

                1. Cagsil profile image83
                  Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Okay. No problem.
                  Highly unlikely.
                  Untrue.  Because we've had discussions in the past. None that you were on the winning end of, but still.
                  Is this your method for disrespecting people? No wonder why many people on HP don't like you.

          2. thisisoli profile image65
            thisisoliposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            @Will when it comes to Hubpages motives for this, they are forcing every amazon earner in to their tier so they can push amazon for higher commissions. (not to mention the fact that they will get a pretty penny on interest on the cash in the account).

            The positives are mild for the people who dont make many sales, an extra dollar or two per sale maybe, but still not much.  For those who make a lot of money the extra percentage here and there might be nice, but losing reporting is difficult for serious marketers. 

            But still the benefits for each individual are still small.

            But now look at the combined 40% of sales that Hubpages garners from amazon, the small increase in commission means a hell of a lot more to them than it would to any individual writer.

            Is the growth in commission be a bad thing? No. But forcing hubbers to lose out after so much (especially with these shady terms) is not a good move either.

            1. Will Apse profile image89
              Will Apseposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Frankly, I don't mind Hubpages making the extra money. I want it to be a strong business. After all, one of the chief concerns after Panda was would the site survive at all or would it be sold off to some corporation with far less concern for writers than Hubpages have shown (or,or,or).

              I certainly think those people who imagine the management here are somehow shady are just paranoid. People with genuine reputations to protect in the real world rarely engage in petty scams.

              Greekgeek is right about spreading the eggs around, though. Which is what I am doing.

              1. Pearldiver profile image87
                Pearldiverposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                I don't Believe ANYONE Bar you has Implied that this is A SCAM Will!

                Factually The LAST Thing that Any Site Needs in Networld is to be referred to as being a Scam!

                THAT has a Negative effect on All of us in one way or another. Further, those of us that are here are and do illustrate that we have at least some level of loyalty... Perhaps the non recognition of that is another questionable aspect!

                The other questionable things are the roughshod approach, the undermining of existing relationships with those agencies which identify us as individuals and the total lack of transparency - an aspect that HP were Actually 'Caught' on previously! smile

                Other than that... we're happy aren't we? yikes

    2. LindaSmith1 profile image60
      LindaSmith1posted 5 years ago

      Greed just might kill HP.  There are remedies to this.

      We can GO ON STRIKE!  Stop publishing.
      We can GO ON STRIKE!  Publish hubs but not promote any Amazon products as we do now.
      We can GO ON STRIKE!  Have our own web sites set up, blogs set up, and then link to our sites and blogs from our hub.  Our amazon on our sites and blogs are ours not HP.
      We can GO ON STRIKE!   Start unpublishing our hubs! Make copies of them and save to computer.  If they are unpublished, they wont be seen at all.  They will just sit and stagnate,

      1. relache profile image88
        relacheposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        You can only go on strike if you are an employee.  You are a freelance contractor.  HubPages doesn't mind if you choose to take your content and leave.

        Plenty of people have gotten up in arms over the last five years and not once did it have any effect on the changes being made, nor did it slow down the rate of new users joining the site or new Hubs being made. 

        Remember how many people swore up and down after Panda hit that they were leaving?  Does the site seem any smaller or less crowded now?  'Cuz it's not...

    3. LindaSmith1 profile image60
      LindaSmith1posted 5 years ago

      On my profile,bottom the 2nd from bottom is a read more of my articles, there is a site I use to publish and earn from.  There is no minimum pay out.  Only issue is that all goes in profile, no self promotion in articles. No adenses.  Get paid for publishing article.  Then earn from views.  I earn from their about same I do here at HP.  What got me back here was because of Amazon.  Now HP is essentially taking our earnings away from us,what is the point in busting my butt publishing here, when I can do it elsewhere. Squiddo here I come, and of course my other site where I can earn passive income,  Hey, I have made 5 bucks for one month publishing one article.  But I think I have around 60 in total published.

    4. LindaSmith1 profile image60
      LindaSmith1posted 5 years ago

      I copied this: It is portions I find interesting.

      Amazon Program under HubPages will be tracked (as part of Your Earned Balance) and paid to You by HubPages (in accordance with the terms of the Payments section herein to this section). Note that crediting of Amazon-related earning activity into Your Earned Balance may be delayed until sales are deemed final (that is, no longer eligible for return or other adjustments). Earnings will be based on a formula selected by HubPages, in its sole discretion, which formula HubPages may change at any time for Your account.

      Amazon Program earnings for Your Hubs are advertising fees based on: i) a percentage of qualifying revenues from transactions that occur on Amazon via a referral of a user from Your Hubs, ii) a cost-per-click fee for valid referrals from Your Hubs, or iii) as an alternate formula that HubPages selects. The earnings formula may not be identical across all HubPages Earnings Program accounts that run the Amazon Program

      Here is the kicker:  You expressly waive any claims against HubPages relating to Your participation in the Amazon Program on HubPages      This is after they refer to us maybe losing money, etc.

      You acknowledge and agree that with respect to Your participation in the Amazon Program under HubPages: i) You are prohibited from entering into any additional tier of affiliate relationship, and You will not utilize any HubPages-issued Amazon tracking ID anywhere other than on the HubPages Website; ii) Amazon, the Amazon Associates Program, and advertisers/merchants of Amazon are exempt from liability to You; iii) The Amazon Program under HubPages is made available to you without warranty of any kind and on an “AS-IS” and “AS-AVAILABLE” basis, and any such use of the Amazon Program under HubPages is at your own risk; iv) HubPages shall not be liable to You for any direct, indirect, punitive, incidental, special, consequential or exemplary damages that result from Your use of the Amazon Program, even if HubPages was advised of the possibility of such damages; v) HubPages shall not be liable to You for any decrease in earnings that may occur due to a change of earnings formula that impacts Your account; and vi)

      1. Teddletonmr profile image82
        Teddletonmrposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Oh my, what are we to do? What about those of us that have our amazon acc acout ?

        1. relache profile image88
          relacheposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          You're going to do what you can do with ANY affiliate program:  either accept the terms of service and participate OR don't accept the terms and don't participate.

          1. Randy Godwin profile image95
            Randy Godwinposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Does this mean we can't bitch about it?  smile

            1. relache profile image88
              relacheposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Bitch all you want.  Based on past precedent, it's going to have zero effect.

              1. Randy Godwin profile image95
                Randy Godwinposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Thanks, I never expect the past to always determine the future.  Besides, I enjoy bitching sometimes and you'd be surprised how often I get satisfying results from it.  roll

                1. FloraBreenRobison profile image60
                  FloraBreenRobisonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  I have found that sometimes complaining about something does indeed calm myself down. In in those cases, it is beneficial.

          2. thisisoli profile image65
            thisisoliposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Relache, while I have hung on and continued to post (despite the warnings of others) this is looking like an ever increasing final straw for me.  It might not change Hubpages decision, but the fact of the matter is that a lot of people who are 'traffic generators' no longer write articles here, because the truth is there are plenty of sites that offer similar services. 

            I write at Hubpages because I like how easy it is to create page layouts, but that is a small benefit for 40%.

            PLenty of the people who said they were leaving may still be around the forums, but a quick scan of their post updates will show that they have either stopped posting, or post purely backlink related hubs.

            Do I want to leave Hubpages behind? No. Even with reduced earnings I still bring in a tidy income here.  Do I feel as comfortable in my security here as I did before the changes (Not Panda) started being rolled out? not at all.

            1. Will Apse profile image89
              Will Apseposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              I would hang on for a while.

              I don't know if you one of the recipients of a huge traffic boost after the sub-domain change. If you are,Hubpages is a great earning platform even with all the uncertainties.

              And we just don't know how things will go with Amazon.

              One thing to bear in mind is that the management are not out to 'get us' after all. They want us to make money so they can make money.

            2. relache profile image88
              relacheposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              That sums up how I feel.

              1. Will Apse profile image89
                Will Apseposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                I was an innocent before Panda. I felt like a comfortable milk cow grazing in a big open pasture. There was a lot of chewing to be done- churning out the hubs - but little anxiety.

                Now I am a bug eyed rabbit gobbling furiously and looking out for death from the air and land with the near certainty it is coming.

                Maybe, in a year, if nothing terrible has happened, I will relax a little.

    5. LindaSmith1 profile image60
      LindaSmith1posted 5 years ago

      I do wonder if Hub Pages is telling us that we cannot participate with Amazon any other way than through HP, if we participate in Amazon through HP.  But, it looks like we really do not have a choice.

      1. Sinea Pies profile image84
        Sinea Piesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        That is a very good question. Will we, for instance, be allowed to link within the text using our "outside" Amazon account?

        1. relache profile image88
          relacheposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          My understanding of what the terms say would make the answer to this a "no."

          1. Sinea Pies profile image84
            Sinea Piesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            That makes sense.

            1. wilderness profile image97
              wildernessposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Apparently that is not the case.  Further down the thread, Jenna received emails from HP stating that we can use our current account ID for in-text links.

              I would have agreed with relache, but that now seems wrong.  It begins to seem that until the rules come out and are actually posted somewhere (and probably even then) we are limited to interpreting a few short posts from HP and are often getting it wrong.

        2. 0
          Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          If I understand the rules correctly, we're not allowed to use a HP acquired amazon account outside HP

          1. Sinea Pies profile image84
            Sinea Piesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            I thought that would be the case.

    6. LindaSmith1 profile image60
      LindaSmith1posted 5 years ago

      What they plan with this not the same across the board could also explain why some hubbers are making money here, and the rest of us are just plugging along.  There has to be some sort of favoritism.  I have noticed that hub pages staff has hubs.  I am sure they won't be on same pay scale as the rest of us low lifes.

    7. LindaSmith1 profile image60
      LindaSmith1posted 5 years ago

      Are the oldest hubbers going to fair better than the rest. 
      Who knows?

    8. thisisoli profile image65
      thisisoliposted 5 years ago

      "You acknowledge and agree that with respect to Your participation in the Amazon Program under HubPages: i) You are prohibited from entering into any additional tier of affiliate relationship,"

      can a member of staff also please clarify that particular sentence?

      1. 2uesday profile image88
        2uesdayposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I was wondering exactly what that meant too so thanks for raising this point.

        Does it just apply to the people who have more than one account here ( I believe I read that you have to sign up for each Amazon account on your HubPages separately. It would seem (if it relates purely to HubPages accounts) that it is saying you are limited to a tier? Yet in the other 'terms' that they can change the tiers and terms that you are on? 

        This is really confusing, my comprehension of what I read is usually fairly good but I cannot comprehend exactly what is on offer here. I joined HubPages partly because it was easy to understand how it worked, now if I read the terms of service and look at the updates at the bottom of the page the changes are coming thick and fast.

        BTW. If you have landed here, before reading the first post fully you probably need to read thisisoli's (the OP) first post to understand the concerns being expressed here.

        I think the stay or go choices might be what it comes down to for some, as excellent writers have left before, if more go will the site eventually suffer? Who knows, but without a large number of experienced Hubber's input; HubPages may need more staff hours for quality control duties.

        1. EmpressFelicity profile image83
          EmpressFelicityposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          You're right, it's bloody confusing. It almost reads as though they're saying you can't have a separate Amazon affiliate account outside of Hub Pages. Surely THAT'S not what they mean is it?

          Really fed up with the waffly, ambiguous stuff we're being given by HP management here.

          Oh well, it's reminded me to get on with unpublishing the hubs on my other account this w/e. Will probably keep the Amazon ones on this account, if only to help me use it as a handy one-stop portfolio for getting other writing work.

    9. Pearldiver profile image87
      Pearldiverposted 5 years ago

      Well NO MATTER WHAT... AND Irrespective of any statements to the contrary.. This is Riding roughshod over ALL THOSE who have or continue to Contribute to the Earning potential of HUBPAGES.

      If You DO NOT Agree with such Irresponsible and Clearly Questionable Antics.. Then there are MORE OPTIONS (Legally) than are being offered!

      I suggest that if you DO NOT Agree In Principle for all the reasons that are being highlighted here.. Then Notice Should Given To OR Recorded Chronologically That You Agree ONLY on the Basis that You Agree UNDER DURESS!

      Perhaps HP AND WE.. Should Consider the TRUE Nature and Legal Consequences of FORCING Such presents upon those that while may be referred to as Independent.. Still are LEGALLY Entitled To ALL The Benefits that DUTY OF CARE Represents!

      Does That help???? yikes

    10. Greekgeek profile image97
      Greekgeekposted 5 years ago

      Seems like we've all been doing damage control this year, even those of us who weren't on Hubpages and didn't get hit by Panda. Every few months, we get hit with a policy change that requires us to adjust all our articles and bail water furiously instead of making new content.

      I may be wrong about this, but it looks to me like the one thing that Hubpages still has going for it -- earnings-wise -- is that it pays for raw impressions. That's rare. Usually, sites only pay you for clicks on ads.

      You can probably do better elsewhere with Adsense (Wizzley, I suspect, although I haven't yet tried it.)
      You can probably do better elsewhere with Amazon Associates, if you are the kind of person who diversifies and publishes on multiple platforms, since all your sales across all your sites will count towards your commission rate.
      You can probably do better elsewhere with eBay-- there's gotta be some sites where you can use your affiliate codes.

      But I've not seen any other site where pure and simple impressions earn money.

      If that's so, then perhaps Hubpages is best suited for content that doesn't monetize well elsewhere -- that is, informational articles, tutorials, editorials, and humor articles which people tend to read without clicking on ads or buying anything. At least, that's my hunch.

      2011 has definitely taught us that we have to move eggs into many different baskets, including our own websites. But ugh. It's discouraging when you've had a good basket, and suddenly it doesn't fit your eggs anymore.

      1. 0
        Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        my hp ads do much better than any of the other programs, so yes I do earn something for my stuff that doesn't earn much otherwise

    11. 2uesday profile image88
      2uesdayposted 5 years ago

      This thread is getting lost under a pile of - on never mind, it is important to read what the OP on this says.

      1. Will Apse profile image89
        Will Apseposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        There so many ifs and maybes. We will be getting the reports of what it all actually means in practice soon enough.

    12. frogdropping profile image84
      frogdroppingposted 5 years ago

      Re the Amazon Program earnings, in particular this little nugget:

      "The Amazon Program earnings for Your Hubs are advertising fees based on: i) a percentage of qualifying revenues from transactions that occur on Amazon via a referral of a user from Your Hubs, ii) a cost-per-click fee for valid referrals from Your Hubs, or iii) as an alternate formula that HubPages selects. The earnings formula may not be identical across all HubPages Earnings Program accounts that run the Amazon Program."

      I've read through this thread. I wouldn't have realized what it was about by the thread title ... so the bottom line is this: if you don't like it/get it/agree with it, leave.

      Judging on some of the reactions, there's plenty that haven't read through the TOS lately. I guess it doesn't help that HP forgot to bring this to the communities attention by way of a formal announcement within the forum.

      If hubbers want to remain a part of the community, that's their choice. Your hubs are your own, despite various opinions as to ownership. None of us have to stay here, we're all free to go.

      For my part moving my hubs is gonna be a wrench, because (said it before and all that) I have an emotional attachment to the site. Still ... all good things must come to an end sooner or later.

    13. skyfire profile image72
      skyfireposted 5 years ago

      So hubbers are going to earn this way from Ebay and Amazon Program ?

      1. CPC Click to the Product that gets purchased                                     ..(Very low earning ?)
      2. Value of click depending on the total number of hits                          ..(Eh ?)
      3. Single purchase count for each click irrespective of other purchase made by customer in same session. 
      4. No additional product purchase count and no commission.                                          ..(what ?)
      5. Six month with no 50$ payout then money belongs to HP (?)

      Why amazon program has to be like Ebay ?

      1. EmpressFelicity profile image83
        EmpressFelicityposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        To quote the OP: erm what? Where does it say that?!

        1. skyfire profile image72
          skyfireposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Account Closure and Inactivity.

          In the event of Inactivity, the entire amount of an Earned Balance in Your account will be permanently forfeit by You (and You hereby waive any claim relating to the dispute of such payment and disclaim any and all interest in such funds). "Inactivity" means that any of the following have occurred:

          a) There has been no change to Your Earned Balance for a period of greater than six (6) months;

          b) Your account has expired tax information that is greater than six (6) months beyond the date of such expiration;

          c) You have uncollected payments or unaccepted payments by the payment company into your account for a period of greater than six (6) months; or

          d) You have not responded to attempts to contact You at the primary email address listed in the contact information in Your account for a period of six (6) months from the date of the first attempt to contact You for which no response has been received.

          1. EmpressFelicity profile image83
            EmpressFelicityposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            That means that *no* new money is paid for a period greater than six months. If you were getting payments during that period (even very small ones, like a couple of dollars a time), you'd be OK. That's how I read it anyway.

            1. skyfire profile image72
              skyfireposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Here's how i see this change -

              Case #1 - You've no adsense account, so no HP and ebay ad program. You enrolled to the amazon program and then you created 20-30 sales hubs and everything is working fine. HP is earning from all the text ads and you're earning from amazon ads for 60% impression within amazon program. Google dumps your hp subdomain and for next sixth month you struggle to earn a single cent (this is possible there are plenty of members here with this problem). Imagine even single cent or dollar close to 50$ can make a difference in this case.

              Case #2 - Your account has all three - ebay, amazon, adsense active and panda slaps again. Your hubs are not earning for next sixth months. You lost payout no matter how many cents it takes, in this case as well.

              These are the extreme cases which are not hard to imagine considering regular google slapping on content farm pages.

            2. 2uesday profile image88
              2uesdayposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Then it would mean - if you got no payments in for six months you forfeit what was in the account.

              Just imagine someone has an account set up that is not their main account, it is one they just use for Thanksgiving and Christmas hubs, one year they fail to reach the payout threshold by a few cents. Never mind next year will bring it above. No, as I guess that by then they will have donated/forfeited the money to HubPages.

              1. EmpressFelicity profile image83
                EmpressFelicityposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Yes, in theory that could happen for someone who just had seasonal Amazon hubs and nothing else (particularly if they weren't also earning through the HP ad program). In that case, it would be worth their while writing a few evergreen Amazon hubs just to make sure they were earning money during the rest of the year. Or they could take their hubs down and publish them elsewhere.

    14. Will Apse profile image89
      Will Apseposted 5 years ago

      I read in another thread that the sky is on fire. I will be killing myself forthwith.

      No wait a minute...

      The sun is still shining here. My eyes are probably to blame for this anomaly. But I reckon I will wait 'til tommorrow.

      1. Pcunix profile image91
        Pcunixposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Ayup.  Although I do understand why some are angry.

        There is definite overreaction by others, though.  Tempest in a teapot  stuff. 

        I think HP could do a better job of responding to the more legitimate concerns, though I suppose any rational response would just get drowned out in the fury anyway,

        Personally, I'm likely to do much better with this change.  That doesn't mean I don't care about the pain of those who see it as harmful, but I think some are hunting straw men.

        1. Will Apse profile image89
          Will Apseposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          I think there is a mixture of lingering resentment over changes in the TOS- most of which were necessary in my view- plus a remarkable disposition to mass hysteria in these forums.

          I reckon the mass hysteria is understandable in the light of all the post Panda chaos, but that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be resisted.

          1. thisisoli profile image65
            thisisoliposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Pre-hub ads chaos would be a more accurate description of what caused much of the resentment.


            Their is plenty of the usual legaleze in there which makes sense, however when it comes to Hubpages telling me I cannot have my own contract with Amazon or any other afifliate provider, and that at their discretion htey could switch me on to a payment model which could see me lose out finanicially, I have to question just what these conditions are intended to do.

    15. LindaSmith1 profile image60
      LindaSmith1posted 5 years ago

      Gabgirl:  What people have been earning, can go down the drain once this Amazon thing goes into effect. 
      This is how it is going to work according to HP TOS

      Hubber A:  Oh, we like them, blah blah blah   So I will use   the DEY formula  for them

      Hubber B:  Nah,  we will use the    D  formula for them  which pays less than DEY formula

      Hubber C    Oh, maybe we will use the CDE formula for them, and they get the lowest pay of all


      Do you get it now.       HP is going to control how much money every hubber earns from the Amazon program.

      The catch is, the same forumula used to calculate the payments is not going to be the same for every hubber.

      So 3 hubbers would normal have 15 earned with Amazon let says in commission.

      Now HP says one hubber gets 1 dollar,   the next hubber gets 5 dollars and the last hubber gets 5 cents. 

      We will not know how they are calculating this,.

      1. wilderness profile image97
        wildernessposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        You're reading a lot more into this than there is and making a lot of funny assumptions.  According to you:

        We like hubber A so we'll let them and HP make lots of money.

        We don't think too much of hubber B so we won't let them make much, and we'll cut our earnings from their hubs as well.

        Hubber C we hate, so we won't allow hardly any earnings at all, and we'll forgo our own earnings, too.  Because we hate them.  Our investors hate them, too, so they will also be please not to make anything from their hubs.

        Doesn't make a lot of sense to me...

    16. skyfire profile image72
      skyfireposted 5 years ago

      Is there any formula to begin with ?

      1. 2uesday profile image88
        2uesdayposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Amazon's current formula is a transparent one - (increasing) tiered % for the number of sales.

        1. skyfire profile image72
          skyfireposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          So what's the top tier percentage for hubbers ? 6.5 % ? 8.5% ? 11?

          There is no official line about it in TOS. Let me know if i missed something in TOS.

          Take a look at this explanation, this type of transparency i expect from HP staff.

          Another point is that you can set your own paypal payout with Squidoo from 1$ onwards. So if that is allowed here, it'll be possible for most of us to get over the rule mentioned previously. As you can see we have no such option to edit payout amount in settings.

    17. LindaSmith1 profile image60
      LindaSmith1posted 5 years ago

      For the avoidance of doubt, with Your participation in the Amazon Program under HubPages, You will not have a direct contractual relationship with Amazon, the Amazon Associates Program, or any advertiser/merchant of Amazon. You acknowledge and agree that with respect to Your participation in the Amazon Program under HubPages: i) You are prohibited from entering into any additional tier of affiliate relationship

      This is mumbo jumbo.   So, does this mean that we can only be Amazon associates through Hub Pages?

      There are retailers, on Amazon, who have affiliate programs through linkshare, etc.  So does this mean that we cannot continue our affiliate relationships with merchants who advertise on Hub pages as well directly with affiliates or through other affiliate programs?

      Does this mean if we are on Hub Pages, the only Amazon account we can have is one through Hub pages?

      1. EmpressFelicity profile image83
        EmpressFelicityposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        So I'm not the only one who's asking that question.

        If that's what they are saying then I will be pulling all of my Amazon hubs down, including the ones on this account.

        1. IzzyM profile image84
          IzzyMposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          I read that as saying you will no longer be able to put an intext link direct to Amazon using an html code.

          I suspect this will mean having to remove all my AmazonUK affiliate links from hubs as soon as the new HP Amazon is in place.

          I'm sure I read they had plans to incorporate the world-wide Amazon into the Amazon program, but of course, don't know if that is going to be in place in time for the start of the new compulsory program.

          I just hope they give us time to remove those links before they hit the unpublish button because I must have 100s of hubs to go through!

          Been down this road before, haven't we?

          Yet ANOTHER mass edit.

      2. Kangaroo_Jase profile image81
        Kangaroo_Jaseposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        No,

        It suggests that no matter what structure you use for signing up or not signing up for Amazon on HP, this is separate to your own Amazon affililate account; so,

        In the future,

        Can I use my own Amazon affiliate acct on HubPages? No

        Can I use a HP Amazon affiliate acct I have signed up for using HP ads? Yes

        Can I still use my own Amazon affililate account on my own or other compatible websites? Yes

    18. LindaSmith1 profile image60
      LindaSmith1posted 5 years ago

      Well, HP won't clarify this mess.  So, let's see if Amazon Associates program will.  I just sent an email to them.

    19. thisisoli profile image65
      thisisoliposted 5 years ago

      ""HubPages shall not be liable to You for any decrease in earnings that may occur due to a change of earnings formula that impacts your account"" Also had this particular line of the ToS pointed out to me.

      Clearly this means that Hubpages is strongly considering moving to either a CPM or a standardized CPC earnings method.  It also means that plenty of us would lose out.

      Sorry Hubpages, but seriously?

      1. LindaSmith1 profile image60
        LindaSmith1posted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Face it. HP is trying to find a way to get huge cut of the pie., while we work our arses off for a pipe dream that this supposed increased commission which is going to be diffrent for all of us, not accross the board, which is nothing more than a pipe dream.

        I see it this way:  Do you see the I made $1000 overnight, get rich schemes, that claim it costs you nothing.

        Same thing here.  But it is not free.  It will take our time to write these hubs again, maybe for less than the pennies we get now.  So, they can do as adsense has a rep for, get close to pay out, HP closes your account and you lose all of it.

    20. jenniferrpovey profile image93
      jenniferrpoveyposted 5 years ago

      Wow. That really does read as if you can't have your own Amazon affiliate code on your own site. I suppose I'll have to stop putting Amazon capsules in my hubs unless it is specifically clarified that it does NOT mean that.

      I use Amazon Associates as part of my business model as it's really the only easy and feasible way for me to sell books through my site right now. So...I'm not giving it up for HubPages or anyone else.

      I think, though, that they are shooting for 'don't put OUR Amazon code on your own site'...like anyone would. But yeah, we need an answer on that because it's not properly clear.

    21. Paul Edmondson profile image
      90
      Paul Edmondsonposted 5 years ago

      We always try and be transparent with our intent.  In regards to the posted terms about how we may pay earnings out, we try and anticipate some possible changes.

      For example, the reason we called out CPC is because of the difference between affiliate commissions and advertising. Had Amazon been paying publishers on a CPC basis, publishers in states like California wouldn't have lost their Amazon earnings. 

      This will hopefully give us flexibility to quickly adapt to changes that may come. There is a good chance people in California wouldn't have lost their earnings for as long of period as they did if we had this in place.

      1. jenniferrpovey profile image93
        jenniferrpoveyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Can you clarify your intent on the 'other affiliate tiers' question that seems to be worrying some people?

        1. EmpressFelicity profile image83
          EmpressFelicityposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Bump!

      2. IzzyM profile image84
        IzzyMposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I think what you are saying is that the CPC option will be put in place if California loses its Amazon affiliation again, but that it will only affect hubbers who live in California or another banned state, so those of use outwith those areas can continue to earn by commission. But there will be some kind of choice put there.
        Or maybe not, with HP being based in California, maybe we will all have to go over to CPC but that is away in the future, and if that happens, I assume there be an option to use our own affiliate codes again if it meant a huge loss.

        1. wilderness profile image97
          wildernessposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          That scenario makes sense to me, although it isn't so far in the future.  Less than a year and amazons agreement with California runs out.

          Or we could see a federal effort to force tax collection, whereupon the whole question of nexus is null.

    22. paradigmsearch profile image89
      paradigmsearchposted 5 years ago

      http://inthewildwithwags.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/wild20turkey.jpg
      Paradigmsearch and Paul Edmondson take a stroll...

    23. paradigmsearch profile image89
      paradigmsearchposted 5 years ago

      http://inthewildwithwags.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/wild20turkey.jpg
      Paradigmsearch and IzzyM take a stroll...

    24. LindaSmith1 profile image60
      LindaSmith1posted 5 years ago

      Here is anothert goodie in the Amazon portion of the TOS     

      HubPages reserves the right to discontinue, temporarily or permanently, Your participation in the Amazon Program under HubPages at any time and for any reason, without liability to You or any third party.

    25. mistyhorizon2003 profile image90
      mistyhorizon2003posted 5 years ago

      It seems that no straight answer on this is going to be forthcoming hmm

    26. LindaSmith1 profile image60
      LindaSmith1posted 5 years ago

      Looks that way Misty.  It is easier to get an answer from a politiican than it is from HP.  Well, I do have an answer for me.  I am removing my amazon from every hub.  If it turns out that we cannot have Amazon if we put hubs here, then I move what hubs I do have elsewhere.

      Relache: Oh yes, Indenpendent contractors can go on strike.  Independent Truckers did that very thing years ago over fuel prices.   Writers can go on strike, but putting their work everywhere but on HP. They can go on strike by pulling all or part of their work.

      The Panda is irrelevant here.  This is about getting shafted with our Amazon affiliate accounts.  They won't touch Ebay because that is not an affiliate  program.

      1. IzzyM profile image84
        IzzyMposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Linda, I think you are getting worked up over nothing. Just wait and see what pans out. As someone pointed out, the TOS always contains stuff to protect the company and that part you quoted about removing people from the service is pretty normal.

        I for one am staying, with all my Amazon hubs.

        If it doesn't work out somewhere down the line, I am free to leave, as we all are, but let's not make any knee-jerk reactions just now, when we don't know how this is going to work.

        It could work GREAT, in fact we hope it does.

        Oh and eBay IS an affiliate program.

        1. Pcunix profile image91
          Pcunixposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          +1

          What she said.  Exactly what she said.

    27. thisisoli profile image65
      thisisoliposted 5 years ago

      If amazon had used a CPC model that still adjusted it's rate based on sales earnings it would have still bee hit by the California sales tax though. The california sales tax law clearly covered both direct and indirect commission and closed the loophole on rate adjusted CPC based on sales.

    28. thisisoli profile image65
      thisisoliposted 5 years ago

      "You acknowledge and agree that with respect to Your participation in the Amazon Program under HubPages: i) You are prohibited from entering into any additional tier of affiliate relationship,"

      Would still really like clarification on this.

    29. LindaSmith1 profile image60
      LindaSmith1posted 5 years ago

      Izzy:  Since when is eBay affiliate program.  I know people with real stores sell things there and private people do with collectibles etc, but not affiliates like with Amazon?

      I have already removed  most of my Amazon links.  Arenlt the changes to start today, and then again 2012?

      Everything is too secretive.  Different pay rate among all hubbers???  Well, it will only take me about 5 minutes to shut down what I have left with Amazon here.  I keep reading and it appears if you participate with Amazon here, you CANNOT have anotther ID for blogs etc.  a

      Since the CEO was in here today, it is obvious they are watching to see what is being said about this.  So, why weren't some straight answers provided?

      1. janderson99 profile image84
        janderson99posted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I have deleted my Amazon as well. In the new system there is no way of verifying the Amazon data and payments as this is all done by HP. Its all too secretive and variable. I'll post my Amazon articles elsewhere.

      2. PaulGoodman67 profile image90
        PaulGoodman67posted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Izzy is correct, eBay is an affiliate program.  With respect, LindaSmith1, that's not rocket science.

        1. LindaSmith1 profile image60
          LindaSmith1posted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Seriously, I had no idea.  I always thought it was for ordinary people to sell things they wanted to get rid of, which is when I found out that various business list things to get people to their main site.  But affiliate program, I had  no idea.  Shows how much I go to Ebay.  I sold a few things there, hated them and that was it for me.  But even so, HP cannot control private sales, like if you sold an old PC etc.  Who knows, if they find a way, that will be next.

      3. QuestionMaster profile image89
        QuestionMasterposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        eBay has always had an affiliate program, however it's VERY difficult to get into, and the application process has tightened up a lot in the last few years.

        Recently Hubpages made a deal with eBay so hubbers can earn through them and it's fairly easy to get into - but we are paid through the ad program.

    30. LindaSmith1 profile image60
      LindaSmith1posted 5 years ago

      Kangaroo: That is not the way the TOS is reading, and HP is not giving straight answers,

      1. Kangaroo_Jase profile image81
        Kangaroo_Jaseposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Yes it is, HP has no control over how I use my Amazon Affiliation outside of HubPages.

        Quote and read the ToS (colored text is mine)

        Your participation in the Amazon Program under HubPages (you choose to sign up and use the Amazon Program as provided by HubPages or not), You will not have a direct contractual relationship with Amazon, the Amazon Associates Program, or any advertiser/merchant of Amazon. You acknowledge and agree that with respect to Your participation in the Amazon Program under HubPages: i) You are prohibited from entering into any additional tier of affiliate relationship. (This tells you that you may not use your own or another persons Amazon affiliate account, or any other Amazon agreement you have, ON HUBPAGES ONLY)

        Stop and wonder, why would people continue to use Hubpages if they have their own Amazon Account used elsewhere.

        If THAT was the case, I myself would certainly shut shop on Hubpages and take all of my work elsewhere.

    31. LindaSmith1 profile image60
      LindaSmith1posted 5 years ago

      Baileybear: That is the way a lot of us are understanding it.  If that is the case, HP made a bad move.  People will leave in groves.

    32. LindaSmith1 profile image60
      LindaSmith1posted 5 years ago

      Or, we can leave our hubs, drop the Amazon here, and just link to our blogs and sites where we have our own amazon account at.

    33. LindaSmith1 profile image60
      LindaSmith1posted 5 years ago

      Well, I just saw I have 2 items sold on Amazon.  All I earned was a lousy $1.20 for $29.98 in sales.  So Under the new HP, what would I get, 12 cents?

      1. wilderness profile image97
        wildernessposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Depending on what sold and the actual terms with Amazon, probably $2.55.  I'm assuming that some things, like electronics, would not pay that much.

        It appears that most sales will net 8.5% under the new program, whereas you are earning 4% with only 2 sales.

    34. LindaSmith1 profile image60
      LindaSmith1posted 5 years ago

      Wilderness: I don't know where you get your figures from.  There is going to be different formula used, which we are not priivy to among all hubbers. It is not a universal pay configuration. With Amazon, I can collect on a $10 minimum rather than having to wait for a 50 minimum here.  Who knows, HP may raise that too. It also appears we won't have access to any type of report like we do with our own Amazon accounts. I would rather be able to see my reports, monitor what is going on with my account, my links, get paid at a low minimum, have control of what I do, where I advertise, etc and earn the 4 percent than some imaginary figure that we don't know how HP comes up with it.

      What is somebody at HP earned the 8.5 percent for a $30 sale, and then you find out that you only earned a 5 percent for a $30 sale, because that is what is going to happen.

      1. wilderness profile image97
        wildernessposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        You don't know that that is what is going to happen any more than I can guarantee that it never will.  For the time being I can accept Paul's explanation of the strange TOS as factual - I can accept that each hubber can reasonably expect to earn top tier on their sales just as earlier posts from HP have given us to expect.

        If your imaginings prove to be factual and HP has deliberately set out to screw their hubbers and themselves - well, there are other sites and you get to say "I told you so!".  Until that time, however, I have no reason to believe that the new TOS is any more than simple legalese to protect HP, just as Paul states, and there is no deep, dark, plan to steal from everyone.

        To stick around and find out what will happen could cost me a couple of months of amazon earnings - a couple of hundred dollars - but that wouldn't be the end of the world.  Or it could increase my earnings by the expected 30% or so for the next ten years. 

        You appear to have found a magic crystal ball telling you that HP is a thieving conniving outfit, but personally I doubt that it's telling you the truth about what HP plans on doing.  We'll see.

        1. lrohner profile image84
          lrohnerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Explanation? By Paul? You saw an explanation by Paul with regards to the TOS wording? I saw a post by him earlier on in this thread, but I saw nothing even vaguely resembling an explanation. Or did I miss it?

          1. wilderness profile image97
            wildernessposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            "For example, the reason we called out CPC is because of the difference between affiliate commissions and advertising. Had Amazon been paying publishers on a CPC basis, publishers in states like California wouldn't have lost their Amazon earnings.  "

            The CPC and the possibility of differences in plan for different hubbers is due to the possibility of further nexus troubles down the road or to changes made by amazon.  Or so I read Paul's post.  I call that an explanation. 

            As I said, that explanation could be nothing but cover for darker purposes, but until it happens I will take Paul at his word and not attribute his words or those in the TOS to nefarious plans to steal from us all.

    35. Wesman Todd Shaw profile image94
      Wesman Todd Shawposted 5 years ago

      Yup.  "Innocent until proven guilty" might not be the way the U.S. Government operates, but Hubpages is innocent until proven guilty.

      1. nicregi profile image64
        nicregiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Wow....the topic is LOOOOOONNNNNNGGGGGGG! But seriously thanks all for sharing their thoughts.

        I got to agree in what Wesman Tood Shaw says.

        Keeping finger crossed and I am still keeping my Amazon hubs with me. Mean time, will hang out more with eBay first and see how things goes around.

        1. skyfire profile image72
          skyfireposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Ebay and Amazon both are under CPC model in this new Ad program, so it hardly matters which you put on your hubs. AFAIK, it all come down to testing which online shop users prefer for shopping. Earnings will differ based on that.

    36. LindaSmith1 profile image60
      LindaSmith1posted 5 years ago

      Well sun worshipers let me tell you this:

      I dropped almost every amazon capsule in my hubs.  I have spoken out against this new plan, TOS, that really does not tell us anything, questions not being answered. 

      One person that started a forum topic has been banned for 7 days.  In fact, their forum post that they started cannot be found now.   

      My profile score has dropped from 85 to 79.  I was more active on here yesterday than I have been from day one.  My individual hub scores have increased.  Yet my earnings for past 24 hours are ZERO

      Now tell me there isn't some funny business going on and it has only just begun.

      1. 0
        Baileybearposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        you seem to think there are conspiracy theories re banning a member for 7 days. Not sure what ban reason was, but do recall them playing sockpuppet games

      2. Pcunix profile image91
        Pcunixposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        How on earth does it make sense to drop your capsules?

        You have worked yourself up into a high state of anger and most of it seems to be from misunderstanding and unjustified suspicion.

        Calm down. Breathe deeply.  The ONLY class of people who should have any issue with this are those who are already in top or perhaps next to top tier AND who have well performing Amazon elsewhere.  Those very few people may get hurt by this.  Moreover, they may NOT get hurt, so that's not a given either.

        For the rest of us, we should be far better off. 

        But no matter which group you fell into, it makes zero sense to remove your Amazon capsules.   If you think you need to "vote with your feet",  that's not a vote, that's just untying your shoelaces.

      3. Lisa HW profile image83
        Lisa HWposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        My score often goes down if I'm on the forums a lot and/or mix that with other activity.  I pretty much have never made any "big stink" about anything that goes on HubPages, and I've always assumed it just shakes things up in the system until they settle down some (or else its HP's way of keeping one person from showing up everywhere anyone looks, rather than have a better mix of Hubbers showing up.

        Maybe I'm wrong - but I've been here four years and definitely know that the way to decrease my score for a couple of days is 1) write a Hub and 2) be in the forums and/or comment a lot more than I ordinarily would.

        I just think people ought to wait and see how the new thing pans out.  If it doesn't work for them they can do the next thing.  I've tried HP ads a couple of times.  They don't work as well for me as my private Ad Sense account - so I shut them off.  Businesses make changes with how they do things.  There will always be people who aren't happy and/or who leave as a result.  Other people can/will adjust how they do things under a new system.

        I'm not entirely comfortable with the new Amazon thing.  It doesn't matter a whole lot to me for now because I've only done some light efforts with Amazon.  I've been aiming to do more, though; and now I'm thinking I may do that somewhere else.  I happen to like the private-account thing, rather than some other "deal".   My own earnings aside, I don't like to think that people may lose money with a new system.  Still, I just think people ought to wait and see how the new things works (or doesn't) for them.

        One thing, though:   Every time there's a change that goes on here, there's a person (or a few) who come on the forums and imply that anyone who has no plans of immediately leaving because of the change is stupid, or doesn't "smell the coffee", or doesn't see what's going on (that kind of thing).  The bugs me.    People aren't usually stupid.  People know what works for them, and they aren't about to keep doing something that doesn't work for them.  It's that's simple. 

        It's one thing that voice disagreement with, or concern over, some new change that's about to take place.  It's another to suggest that the people running this site have little but nefarious motives, or to suggest that anyone who's willing to wait and see what happens only does that because he doesn't know enough not to leave just because some others say they're leaving.

        Anyone who can write well and/or is skilled with Internet marketing can do either or both of those things on a lot of other sites.  I really can't see getting all up in arms over what one site does.  Why do people say they're leaving here but still leave up their Hubs?  Because they're making money on them even when they're not writing more.  If they can make more money with them somewhere else they tend to take them down and put them somewhere else.  Good luck to anyone who leaves.  Good luck to anyone who stays.  All anyone usually wants is for people to make their money with their writing.

        All I know is that if this site ever no longer works for me then I'll stop writing here and quietly move on, assuming that whatever goes on here is still working for whoever stays.   Honestly - those of us who didn't leave after Panda went through the whole thing about how "people who stay don't know any better" then.  Then there's been some other little uproars here or there about how people who stay "don't see what's happening". 

        We've had people come on here and imply (say, if I recall correctly) that we're all a bunch of mind-controlled folks and if we stay it's only going to worse.  lol

        I appreciate reading people's concerns about changes.  I have my own and like to see if there others I haven't thought of myself.   There's a point, though, where it goes beyond expressing concerns and/or dissatisfaction for onself and onto thinking that people are "sun-worshippers" if they decide to hold off and see what works/doesn't work for them.   That's when it gets tiring.  It's not as if the "wait-and-see" thinking so many people go with is some big, wild, and radical course of action.  The smartest business people know how to adapt their own approaches to changes that are inevitably a part of every business.

        1. Pcunix profile image91
          Pcunixposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          I will defer to your seniority, but note that I generally put up one hub per day and am usually active in the forums every day and my score goes up and down for no apparent reason. 

          It's meaningless anyway.  The person you responded too seemed to be trying to imply some correlation with income, but I know there are people here who make ten times the income I do with a far lower profile score and no more hubs.

    37. LindaSmith1 profile image60
      LindaSmith1posted 5 years ago

      Kangaroo:  It says, implies that if you participate in Amazon on HP, you  cannot have any other relationship with Amazon ANYWHERE, ANY HOW, ANY PLACE OTHER THAN HP.

      1. IzzyM profile image84
        IzzyMposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        No it doesn't.

        It says you can't use your HP Amazon affiliate code anywhere else. That is different to your own Amazon affiliate code which you can't use on HP anymore, but CAN elsewhere.

      2. Kangaroo_Jase profile image81
        Kangaroo_Jaseposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        See IzzyM comment above mine.

        Your trying to suggest to me something akin to I can't use Twitter if I have a Facebook account, because thats in the ToS for Facebook?

        Think long and think hard.

    38. edmob1 profile image61
      edmob1posted 5 years ago

      As someone who does not rely on this site, Amazon or Ebay for any real financial contribution the outcome may not affect me greatly.However,I see to two threads within the thread;1) Worries about earnings,2) Hubpages credibility.
      It is the second of these that concerns me most.I beleive hubpages have handled this badly.                                                         The system can throw out emails to hubbers to come and read new TOS at the site.Therefore it should be able to send emails saying here are the new TOS regarding X and how it affects your relationship with Hubpages.
      If I approach an editor with a piece and they say I'll give you maybe 50 or 60 for that I take it or leave it,but atleast I have an idea of the value to them. If another editor offers me a 100 you know who I will go with.
      Telling a writer you can take or take a hike will only end up with content taking a dive.Companies not being able to respond to freelancers enquiries about earnings potential means the freelancers will not submit their best work to that company though they keep a relationship for the hard times over the horizon.

    39. Jenna May Swan profile image61
      Jenna May Swanposted 5 years ago

      I don't normally do any more than lurk on the forums, but I thought this might be useful for some of you guys...

      I sent this email to hubpages team on 17th Nov



      Their response on the 18th was



      So to clarify I sent this on 19th



      and got this reply on 24th



      And then I come back for a peek at the forum and it seems no-one actually has any idea how the amazon program will work at all.

      However, I assume from the delayed response for their last "yes" email that someone hubpages end did bother to check.

      If it's true then it is good news in part, as we can still have some control over our earnings.

      1. IzzyM profile image84
        IzzyMposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Excellent, that eased one of my worries, thanks smile

        1. wilderness profile image97
          wildernessposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Do I detect a little sarcasm here?  'Cause I don't see any emails in Jenna's post - just blank space.  Am I left out of the information loop again? sad

          1. Jenna May Swan profile image61
            Jenna May Swanposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Are you really not seeing the emails?

            1. mistyhorizon2003 profile image90
              mistyhorizon2003posted 5 years ago in reply to this

              I can see them okay Jenna smile

              1. wilderness profile image97
                wildernessposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                And I still can't.  I'm being shortchanged here!

                1. mistyhorizon2003 profile image90
                  mistyhorizon2003posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Not even on her original comment Wilderness? Strange! It is on page 7 of this thread and is post number 7 (in chronological view as opposed to that horrible threaded view).

                  1. wilderness profile image97
                    wildernessposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Nope.  Just blank areas between the sentences with dates in them.

                    I use FF, but I tried IE and even copy and pasted into a word processor.  Nothing but blank space.

                    1. mistyhorizon2003 profile image90
                      mistyhorizon2003posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                      Okay, I shall quote the old fashioned way so you can read it:

                      Jenna to HP: "Hi there,

                      In all the stuff about the switch for the amazon program I cannot seem to find an answer to this:

                      "Can we continue to provide text links to amazon (using our own associates tracking IDs) when the compulsory switch occurs in the new year?"

                      I would love to hear back with clarification.

                      Many Thanks"

                      *****

                      HP to Jenna: "apologize for my confusion, but I'm not sure what you are asking. I think you are asking if you can add a direct link (bypassing Amazon capsules offered in the HubTool) to your products using your associates tracking ID, which you can. In other words, you can use the link capsule or add a hyperlink to text in your Hub directly to Amazon. Please keep in mind, you can only link to Amazon 2 times per Hub.

                      Can you let me know if that doesn't answer your question?"

                      *****

                      Jenna to HP: "Thanks that does indeed answer my question - so I will be able to continue doing this in the new year?"

                      *****

                      HP to Jenna: "Hello, Yes, you can."

                      *****

                      Hope this helps Wilderness smile

          2. IzzyM profile image84
            IzzyMposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            No, I replied to this post http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/87482?p … ost1875322

            For some reason the reply from HP is greyed out as if it has been quoted, so when I replied the quotes disappear.

            But HP staff has said that in text Amazon links are OK.

            1. Jenna May Swan profile image61
              Jenna May Swanposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Thanks for clarifying Izzy - thought I had done something even more stupid than usual... back to some serious lurking for me - this has all been far too interactive!

            2. ngureco profile image87
              ngurecoposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              How are you, Izzy?

              Where are you reading this from? I doubt if they will allow one to use the 1000-plus Amazon text links one may want use.

              1. IzzyM profile image84
                IzzyMposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                See the post I linked in my last last post, where Jenna May got a personal email from HP.

                I wouldn't want to put 1000 links to Amazon up, but I do link the odd sales hub to AmazonUK because I get a lot of traffic from the UK so it's worthwhile, and people in the UK seldom buy from Amazon.com.

                Living in Spain, I myself buy from AmazonUK as do most expats as they are cheaper than the other European Amazons, including AmazonES which has very little products to choose from anyway.

                And while Amazon.com will ship to Europe it is common for border control to open the package and charge an import tax to the recipient.

                So at the moment, I would cut my sales in half by not offering something to Europeans.

                1. ngureco profile image87
                  ngurecoposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Thank you, Izzy.

                  And yes, they said, “you can add a hyperlink to text in your Hub directly to Amazon. Please keep in mind you can only link to Amazon 2 times per Hub”.

                  I thought we used to have a limit on the number of links each Hubpages' account can link to a single domain?

                  1. IzzyM profile image84
                    IzzyMposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    There is, but not all my hubs are sales hub, and not all my sales hub have a link to AmazonUK, and I very seldom ever use two links to it in a hub, when a single H2 header link saying 'Amazon UK viewers click here' or words to the equivalent says it all.

            3. wilderness profile image97
              wildernessposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              How odd.  If I use your link, Izzy, it tells me the post is no longer there and sends me to the one above with the deleted emails.

              I guess the emails are just saying that we can still use in text links with our current tracker and amazon code.  Thanks for the info.

    40. LindaSmith1 profile image60
      LindaSmith1posted 5 years ago

      Jenna:  What was sent.  Reply????

      How can we have control when HP is going to control everything, including how they figure out earnings. The way they will figure earnings is not going to be universal, it will be different from hubber to hubber.

      There is still the question of if a hubber has an Amazon account here, if they can have their own Amazon affiliate account outside of Hub pages.  The way the TOS reads, it implies a NO

      1. Jenna May Swan profile image61
        Jenna May Swanposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Although I have to say that time spent on hubs these days is pretty much wasted personally, I think there are some things worth worrying about and others worth putting onto the shelf marked "hubpages is a business, and like any other they want to make money for them not me".

        But, I was pleased to actually get a response.

        The new payment structure is not for me at all. Which is why, in part, I don't write here any more. But rather than go to the bother of deleting hubs at least I can stick with text links and delete the capsules (providing of course that the information I was given is correct - and I doubt we will really know that till Jan 1st). It will be useful too for those with UK associate accounts too.

        In confirming we can use our own affiliate ids on hubs in text links, they are confirming we can have affiliation with amazon. How would they even know? I have many tracking IDs for use on different sites and only amazon know they are all tied to my account.

     
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