I paint and I have noticed that my paintings have been criticized by people who have never held a paint brush. I guess I need thicker skin but one day I sat a young protégé down and I said, "Do better!!' To which she respond she could not do worse. The next day she came over and I paid for all her supplies to paint an oil painting. Eight hours and 40 brushes ruined later and the teenager realized oil painting isn't so easy. She had an entirely new appreciation for oil paintings and for how difficult they were to create. If there is magic at all in at it is the artists that make it seem so easy.
Also on hubpages I have noticed there are those with very few hubs published that think they are qualified to criticize everyone's work. I read their criticism. I try to take it all in stride and if they are right I fix the errors and move on trying not to make the same errors twice.
My point is how can anyone who hasn't published a lot of hubs appreciate those who have published a great deal?
Should there be a minimum hub publication requirement before people can complain, vote down or criticizes another's work.
Let me share another example. I wrote a show review. I completed the research and on the internet the main character's name is spelled two ways. I went to the network’s website and I took the spelling directly from the network's website and yet someone who claimed to be a professional writer but who had not published one hub just torn into me claiming I did not do the research as I did not know the main character's name. I knew there was two spellings for the character's name but tried to write past it instead of confuse the reader.
Really the character's name was not that important and it was the difference of one letter.
Do you think there should be a minimum publication requirement before another hub member criticizes another person's work?
Thanks for reading and taking this into consideration.
I did make a typo in the article which I fixed immediately.
I would say it was maybe not the best way to enter a community, but I would also point out that just because he/she may not have a lot of hubs doesn't mean he/she isn't a "professional writer".
I've been pulling in a modest income for a few years doing freelance writing, but I've only been on HubPages for 10 months. I also have a B.A. in English (btw, somehow that still doesn't equate to error-free writing). I probably wouldn't bother to correct someone else's hub unless the hubber and I had a good relationship... then it would be something like "Hey, I think you missed a comma there."
The point is, just he/she is relatively new here doesn't necessarily mean he/she didn't have a point. Now, the tact shown by providing unsolicited critiques of another's work may be questionable.
Just delete the comment and go on if you don't like it.
For the life of me I still can't catch all my edits so I appreciate your perspective. I have been really reluctant to delete anyone's criticisms because I wanted to allow everyone a voiice in my hubs.
You are probably right. I should just delete and move on.
I think this is an excellent summation of the issue and an appropriate response.
JT, my two cents is this: This community of writers are preparing us to deal with the wider world of writing. I think we should be able to take the criticism and move on. Don't let it get us down so much. I am not undermining how you must feel because I know some people are quite rude.
Many of us aspire to be authors and criticism of our work is expected because publishers will be harsher. I know that some of us here on HP could be a bit nicer about it but that's the different personalities we have to deal with. Sometimes they mean no harm at all.
As Melissa said a new writer her doesn't mean he/she is a new writer.
It is not that I can't take the critism it is that I believe those who not produce shouldn't criticize. It is much easier to tear another person's work down then produce your own. I think wirter's should focus on writing. I can tell you that I don't criticism very seriiously form people who have zero hubs published. I do think it is an underhanded way to slap someone down anyonmously and that has no place in any profession as it is unprofessional.
I didn't say Melissa was a new writer. I think I clarified down below that I it was the zero hub criticism that concerns me.
But I appreciate our two cents and I get more than my fair share of criticism. Trust me I have thought about publishing all the criticism I have received but declined as it would be unprofessional.
Thank you for responding.
I understand where you are coming from JT. I just responded to the first post since that was your original concern.
The analogy you used explained it well also. Thanks for understanding.
Personally, I HATE the "do better" argument.
I can't bake from scratch, does that mean I'm not allowed to say if the cupcakes I'm eating taste bad?
I can't write neatly, does that mean I'm not allowed to tell someone if their essay is unreadable because of poor handwriting?
I don't bowl often, but I do know how to bowl because I've taken the time to read about how to properly bowl, does that mean I can't give advice for a person who does bowl often but still needs improvement? Experience doesn't always equate with mastery.
A person who is a bad writer is still allowed to say if an article is poorly written due to disorganization or misinformation.
I don't need to know how to paint to be able to tell if I like a painting or not and why I feel that way; it just means my advice/criticism won't be as detailed as someone who does, but that doesn't make my advice/criticism worthless.
Lack of knowledge just means you can't fully appreciate how much work goes into doing something because you don't have the experience of doing it. However, being able to tell whether something is good or not and why doesn't require that experience.
And, for certain things, being inexperienced is better! The people searching on the web who land on our hubs will most likely not be hubbers or writers, thus it's good to have the eyes of those who haven't been corrupted by experience to get a feel of how the inexperienced reader will react.
The point is: everybody's advice is equally important and I would NEVER use the "experience" or "skill" or "do it better" argument to determine whether a person's advice is worth listening to. Personally, I listen to all people's advice and consider their logic behind it - if it makes sense and is easily feasible, then it's worth taking it in.
So no, I don't think there should be a minimum hub requirement. Especially since quantity =/= mastery. I once saw a hubber with hundreds of hubs - all of which had extremely poor, nearly incoherent, writing.
Oh come on tell me how you really feel? Poorly written hubs are pulled as substandard by hubpages. Thise who don't publish can hid and tear down others work without being pulled off hubpages because they enver produce anything. It is a loop hole.
And yes the only way to master a skill to proficiency is through experience. You have made a straw argumment. You must be joking.
And without experience, good or bad, are completely "subjetive terms. The key to what you are suggesting is that a novice feelings are a great measures success. If you can't do better then how can you criticize but based on your own bais. I do read all my critics and I have to say I have been hit with some really unfair ones by people who produced absolutely nothing.
But I respect you opinion. Thank you for sharing.
Really? Is this a new development I've missed? Hubpages has heaps of trash published, and i'm talking about just a mis-placed comma LOL. Check out the latest hubs stream.
Really? I can't write about death because I'm not dead? I can't write about retirement because I'm not? I can't write about the chemical reactions occurring in the sun because I haven't been there? Obviously no religous hubs should be written - because who can know God - never met anyone who's met him - so no personal experience - can't write about it
No, you have misconstrued what I have written. Criticism of such hubs are subjective as well as any publications on them as well. But no one has said you can't write subjective hubs...I think there was a very cute hub I just read on bleething.
Yes, substandrad hubs are pulled by hubpages staff. Commas my not constitutue substandard hubs.
I agree with you Rising Caren. I think that anyone can provide constructive criticism as long as it is accurate and constructive. They do need to keep in mind that the author is sensitive about his/her work. Personally, I would prefer to know if I have made an error, instead of letting it sit for months without my noticing. They just have to be nice about it. How often am I going to go back to look at my old hubs - I have new hubs to write.
How would you know how many accounts that person actually has on HP?
What if they have 1000 articles under another persona but does not want to have their content revealed?
No, I do not think there should be any minimum requirements. A person is either a HP member or not a HP member, anything else is personal.
I have no poetry posted, does that mean I should not rate another's poem?
I should probably be considered an average to below average writer, I can still determine whether or not I like a hub I have read.
Why would you need more then one persona. There is a problem with people who are not publishing harshly criticizing those who they would be afraid to in their own HP names. And I think that is a rather unfair game to play on this site. If you have the courage to criticize someone then have the courage to stand behind those words even if it hurts your won hub ratings and means you will lose readers.
Lots of people have more than one account for SEO reasons, or find it easier to group hubs on certain subject matter under different pen names. Some, especially those with high numbers of hubs, might even do it for organizational reasons. I will probably end up doing it myself someday because people interested in some of my topics might be offended by other of my topics.
The practice is acceptable as long as multiple accounts aren't used to game the system.
After 400 hubs I have considered it myself as it would be simplier to start over with a new hub and recategorize based on subject content but I didn't because I would feelt hat would give me a very unfair advantage in gaming the system. And as much as I would like to do well I want to do the hard inner work it takes to be a really good writer. Although I must admit it is a bit overwhelming at times when I look at my stats.
If I had a hub/hubs that pulled in tons of views, I might not want anyone to see that content.
If I wrote movie reviews on one account I might want to create another account to post poetry. This is all within the TOS of Hubpages.
You can only use one account in the forums but you can have as many accounts as you want to write hubs.
Getting readers from hubpags is nice but does nothing to earn $$$. I think you will find that many members have multiple accounts.
As to hub ratings, personnally I do not even look at the scores, all I look at is the views and ultimately the amount of revenue generated by the hub.
You do have control over your comments. If you are not happy with the comment or the hubber deny the comment.
Maybe I should consider branching out. I just thought it would be cheating the system and i am really tryiong to be a better writier.
Thanks for the advice.
NP, it does make things easier.
I have one other account which I use to write mostly for the enjoyment of it. I write fiction and poetry. I do not get much outside traffic and I feel that adding poetry to this persona would denigrate the reputation of the account. LOL, I do have a rep.
I do not use myself in pics or my real name as i have seen nefarious people use these things in ways that I would not consent to.
Just this week someone used another hubbers pic as their avatar and posted filth to the forums.
I make a full-time living online - I have better things to do than criticise hubs- I comment if I like the argument or its a friend's hub - but worry about someone else's grammar - I think not!
I use different accounts to hide the niches that I make money in.
That is how I feel
Well I'm not saying all novices will give great advice; I'm just saying it's not a pure way to tell if someone is qualified to give advice or not. Some novices will give good advice; some won't. I'd rather get the advice and then tell for myself if I want to follow it, then just stop people from giving advice.
While the only way to master is through proficiency, it still doesn't change that proficiency doesn't equate to mastery. (Just like all squares are rectangles but not all rectangles are square. One way doesn't imply the other way is true). I've met many prolific writers who really cannot write at all, whether on HP or on Helium or Squidoo or wherever.
Poorly written hubs aren't always pulled as substandard btw. That hubber I mentioned had over 300 hubs. The words weren't mispelled, the grammar itself was completely illogical - kind of like spun content, but even worse - so I don't see how HP's automated "substandard" checker could catch on and he was a member for a loooooooooong time (which made it even more surprising).
I do understand why you'd be wary though; it's a very human feeling. When you work hard on something, it's hard to accept when a new person just goes away and criticizes without understanding all that goes into it. Kind of like when I have to spend hours decorating the xmas tree every year only to have my brother - who never does it and doesn't even know how to put it up- give a bazillion criticisms about it. It hurts, but some of his advice is good ( and some of it is crap, but it's up to me to filter the good from the bad).
I understand you completely now. I have been very relcutant to censor any criticism I have received and I really haven't unless it was a clear violation of TOS. Did you flag the substandard hubs. They get automatically reviewed if you do. I hate to flag substandard hubs but if they are less then a certain amount of words, not in English or there are more tham five errors in the first paragraph. I flag and I am reluctant. I hate flagging because I don't want to discourage new writers.
I agree that some novices can provide cnstructive criticism but I also agree with Melissa it is all a matter of tact.
All My Best and Thanks!!
Numbers of hubs does not mean anything. There are many on here who publish hundreds of poor quality regurgitated crap. There are a few I follow who publish genuine, original, 'proper' pieces of writing.
I am not sure who is qualified to judge but let me tell you numbers of hubs or hubber score or traffic does not come into it.
I will allow however that those who aren't copiers, spinners or dodgy linkers - are qualified to explain to other people why they don't get traffic.
But judging quality?
I think that when nasty criticism is made by a brand new hubber (with no hubs) it's often a post by a sock puppet created by an existing hubber. Someone wants to bump and run -- anonymously.
A hub minimum would cut down on such things.
That was my point exactly but it seems alot of people don't understand that this is going on. Not to mention how badly you could exploit the system with mutliple accounts. If I ever do set up multipple accounts which might make my life easier, I will not do it to be a socket puppet or game the system but to simplify my writing experience.
I think there should be a minimum hub publication requirement. But it is only IMO.
Thanks for understanding my concern.
Who cares what anyone says? Just write. There will always be critics. Take what you can use from the ones who bring something of value to your work ("good" or "bad"), ignore the rest.
I have real fans. I have people who think I'm a jackass or worse.
It works the other way too. There are people who are idolized that I think are jackasses; Seth Godin is one.
Most people think Stephen King is a good writer. I think he's awful.
Do you think Godin or King care ?
That is exactly when I need to here along with "ignore your hubber score".
As much as I don't like when people are overly critical of others' work, it's part of the experience in being in an interactive community. Some will love and adore you, while others will hate you. Not everyone's entirely right or wrong. It's just how the cookie crumbles. But if you offer constructive criticism that will help me, I'm willing to take it and develop it.
I think anyone with eyes can give useful feedback on a painting, without being restricted only to vapid praise. And even if the feedback is of no use to the artists they are fully free to share their opinion with other viewers. The same holds for hubs. It isn't all for or about us as the creators.
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