You know, if I entered a place where I felt unwelcome, I would leave. I have always done that even in some of the forum discussions here at HP. My happiness overrides my need to just get my way because I know how to rant and rave about how unhappy I am. it just makes no sense to me to stay where I believe I cannot be happy at all.
I guess that's my rant for the moment. A little advice. If you are unhappy here. move your articles elsewhere and stop publishing here.
also, if I may add, it would be cool for those on the site, hating the site, staying on the site to stop being petty and whiney or at least til you also publish a hub.
I haven't made or not made enough of anything here to flounce or kvetch yet. But you have good forums here, and that is all that I look for at this stage of things.
Nicely said SirDent. A fine example of why you are a classy Hubber my friend!
I'm disappointed with some aspects of HP, but I am not completely unhappy. Those who are should up and leave. Those who are not, stay.
Not difficult to understand, nor is it difficult to do.
Well, ok, but..
I don't mind seeing complaints. Complaints can improve things.
But yeah, after a certain point, just shut up and move on.
Yes, I'm happy here! I'm very grateful that I have somewhere to post my articles/stories/poems/recipes/ramblings and to make money doing so. I don't mind complaints - as long as they're done in a constructive manner.
absolutely!!!!! couldn't agree more...if you dislike something enough to complain about it, it might not be where you should be...
life's too short to waste a minute being unhappy...there is going to be something about every site that everyone finds objectionable...c'est la vie!!! deal with it or move on....
me, I like it here...
Couldn't agree more. It's one thing to complain about a problem or offer a solution - that's why there is a "Report a Problem or Suggest a New Feature" forum.
To simply gripe and carp, venting anger, ignorance and stupidity for dozens or hundreds of posts, is ridiculous. Move on to somewhere you like better. If you can find such a place.
I could not agree more Baileybear. I have been bitting my tongue for a while now.
I'm staying with HubPages until I feel the need to move on. I think it's very tacky to rant on the Forum about your complaints. If I wanted to leave this site, I would take my toys and leave. That's it. No need to be ugly and leave an angry mess for people to read. Some things don't work out, so it's best just to move on and not to be bitter. I can honestly say that I'm glad I found HubPages. It's a lot more fun than the last online place I wrote for, and I'm very grateful I can write and publish here. I can't complain about the writers, their work, and the encouragement. It's all good.
People dislike their jobs all the time, hell sometimes they hate them, thrash them, yet they still stay. The point you are missing here is that to alot of people this is their job, writing hubs on HP, it makes their income, supports their family, they dedicate hours on hours to writing on HP. So when you see someone with thousands of followers and has been read over 100,000 times here on HP they consider this a job. It is easy to say shut up stop crying, move on, but starting over sucks. That is why people always complain about their job yet stay, why because being te new guy sucks, people hate, dread and fear the first day of work. So I disagree with you 100%, and I incourage all you "hoorah" you suck for complaining people to hold your tongue and look at who is posting what topic and for what before you condemn them. That being said, and although I am not one of the dedicated hubbers who are upsett this hub is meant to address, I totally disagree with the point trying to be made here.
I think the problem arises from the way dissatisfied hubbers choose to couch their complaints. Calling HP staff names, making derogatory comments and being overall verbally abusive isn't okay. If you want to liken HP to a work environment, then this behavior is DEFINITELY not okay. Constructive criticism and rational complaints are not the issue. But the way some hubbers have chosen to voice their complaints would most definitely get them fired in a live work environment.
I know of and am still friends with some well-known hubbers who've left. They left their hubs and gracefully departed. I know it's not simple for everyone to leave after investing so much time and energy in writing here. But why not address the problems they're having with the site privately with HP staff, instead of starting threads fraught with name-calling and conspiracy theories for the entire HP community to see. It's just unprofessional.
The big difference is that we are customers not employees.
I concur, I get that Oli. But, the person to whom I was replying was likening HP to a job... that's why I was making those points in that context.
My ONLY point is the way in which SOME people choose to communicate their woes. I do not think it's helpful or productive to call staff "idiots" and other names. I am tired of hearing about conspiracy theories and how HP is ripping hubbers off. I understand griping, I really do. There are ways to bring issues to the community and staff that don't necessitate ugliness. There's nothing productive in being nasty, no one wants to help people who are being verbally abusive. And frankly, some of us don't want to listen to it. I know I don't and I can tell I'm not alone.
Demonstrating respect is always a more productive way of accomplishing things, that's all I'm saying.
their is a difference you are clearly missing at a work environment you get paid pretty decently. So you complain but keep it to yourself, what you still fail to realize is the people here who work their asses off make less than illegal mexican immigrants and decided to ask? "HEY whats going on here".
also at work you get benefits (health insurance, pension, dental) so really common that is a sad comparison
Writing at HP isn't a job and shouldn't ever be considered a job. As a writer, each individual is self-employed. If anyone doesn't know what that means, then I suggest looking it up.
Edit: Unless you don't commercialize your content. If you're just here to write, then you've no logical reason to complain in the first place.
I am a published author, and have no problem being unproffesional "if thats what you want to call it" on a site with so much brilliant material being published and lost on. So yes if I think HP knows they got a good thing going, awesome articles for free, lots and lots of new advertisers heading there way because of these and are making a few mill a year because of their writers, I feel bad for some of the writers here and hope it gets better. They could be writing articles free lance for magazines "Trave;, Money, etc..etc..." But instead they lay their souls on the line here, I just think some deserve better.
I dont, but honestly you should quote and post what you just said in HP policy if you want people to believe it. Because alot of people take this as their job and by you saying that it insults them. Not me, I really could care less just voicing my opinion but just letme copy and quote you so I have this for the future because I think it is just straight up inconsiderate to so many.
"Writing at HP isn't a job and shouldn't ever be considered a job. As a writer, each individual is self-employed. If anyone doesn't know what that means, then I suggest looking it up."
Ok got it.
what should it be considered "fun time" alot of people here dont write about what they are passionate to write about. they research there artcicle, find a niche and spend hours perfecting it. So I guess it is just "funtime" for them after they are homefrom work? If i am wrong let me know.
I am here to read and respond I am just commenting on one of your comments, I see your **Edit: plus new stuff add on** But it is not significant to me. I do comercialize my content because i love readers input. But the rest of what you wrote is straight forward. I mean if I misinterpreted it please elablorate for me. Clear it up for me.
If you can do that I would appreciate it and would gladly respond, but as of now I have no clue what you expect me to say?
There's a difference between working a job and being self-employed, which my post, which you quoted, stated. I thought I was clear when I said that "anyone who doesn't know what "self-employed" means, then I suggest looking it up".
Those who are here to write for the pleasure of writing have no reason to commercialize their writing and I have seen my share of hubbers who do not commercialize their writing. That means, there are absolutely NO ads on their hubs. Which means, THEY are not earning anything and writing here is just a pleasure, because they like using the Hubpages Platform. There would be no logical reason for anyone who isn't commercializing their pages(hubs) to complain.
Those who are writing on Hubpages for earnings must understand that they do so for "self-employment" purposes, just like owning and operating a business. The writing they do under this specific purpose should be handled different than that of a job.
Owning and operating a business is NOT a job. A job is when you work for someone else and not yourself.
Is that clear enough for you?
actually no, it is you making up your own answer to your original post, in your original post you never said "self employed" ever. If your short term memory is suffering then re-read it yourself. So this response is a solid example of you covering your own ass and still trying not to look like a buffoon. Not to be rude even though I know I am being rude but do not contradict your previous statement by acting like I should of known as well as all who read it that you mean self employed if that was your intent you should of stated it originally.
yeah well said. I am happy with HP but didn't like the score level of it. I am here to learn about online writing and more.
I like "working" on HP..
I get paid a reasonable amount for what I have done... but I have chosen my subject and aimed it at the right people, people who want to buy and click adverts. I have promoted my work to get traffic..
I have not written about my pet dogs ability to wipe its ass on the grass or about outer Mongolian tree snakes, stuff for which no one is searching for and has zero chance of earning money.. If I wanted to write about these things then I would do it for fun and not bitch about being paid so poorly for my writing!!
The setup at HP makes it easy to rank pages and earn as long as you do your keyword research, write good stuff, and do some promotion. It is easier and quicker to earn on than anywhere else I have tried on the internet and I have tried quite a few places whilst learning what works and does not work for me!
I don't just write here, I have my own sites too, but I still like HP..
The staff do not always reply promptly to requests for help or clarification but they do their best - sometimes they make mistakes - but in general I see things improving since having hit a low after panda!
So I like it..
My pay may be less than that of a illegal immigrant picking corn for the hours I put in but hell I get it paid every month without putting in too much extra.. and every time I add an hour or twos work I get a few cents more each and every month.. soon adds up to some impressive monies being paid every single month without any more work put in!!!
I will write what makes me money as that is what I am writing for - it also interests me.. I am not going to try to sell ice to Eskimos and complain that they are not buying and blame the shipping company that took me there!!
yeah, I agree , +100 , +1000 even! ... damn dissenters always muddying up the waters.
Just move those hubs and dont let the door hit you on the bum on the way out!
voted up, funny, awesome and shared!
I don't mind if the door hits them on the way out
They're not talking about dissenters.
They're talking about people who scream about how miserable they are all the time here, how HP is doing everything wrong, and who cook up conspiracy theories and fabrications over and over again.
I suspect you're not going to want to see a difference between the two, but most will.
Why wouldnt I want to see a difference Jason Menayan?
Is there some reason why I would not want to see HP and my several hundred pages of content performing in the best possible manner giving me the best possible earnings and exposure?
Did I write here for 3 years because I dont enjoy the platform?
Whats wrong with little honesty when it comes to how administration decisions effect each individual .. or how these decisions are often interpreted occasionally in what seems to be odd ways? Its only a lack of response and communication that leads to many of the commonly repeated issues.
Why for example can I converse with you under two distinct user names? Wouldnt it be best if staff members were shining examples of Hubpages TOS and suggested practice?
It doesnt bother me ... but you do see how these little things can all add up?
I think your the only one who thought I was being sarcastic maybe, I wasnt.
Id love positive honest forum environment with tons of experienced professionals sharing strategy, assisting in writer concerns, brainstorming and generally providing support for each other ... but for some unimaginable reason .. a great majority of those types are now absent from the forums!
Still not sure why you chose to directly respond to me as LiveLonger ... I dont think we have had any interaction under that persona that would assume enough familiarity to question "how I would see it"
Oh I dunno, <name removed by me>, but aren't you glad it gave you something else to rage about?
Interesting, so did a Hubpages staff member just abuse his privileges and acess to information or did a forum user just abusively post identifying information?
See the two name confusion?
Should I be sending an email to one of the Paul's asking whether this is accepted practice from staff or just sending a report to a forum moderator?
The difference between me posting your alternative persona and real name as a public staff member in the context of my point is quite different then my privacy as a user isnt it?
What if I have a stalker or in my private life Im some sort of public figure who wouldnt want my name attached to this site?
Because he's staff, and he can, so there? There is a faint but noticeable whiff of contempt here IMO.
Jason, you might want to have a rethink about this attitude. It has come across both in this thread and in other interactions with users of this site.
One day it could return to bite you on the a**e.
Interesting. Nary a disgruntled "I'm taking my hubs and leaving" hubber has posted here.
For my part, when a thread's original topic relates to raising a genuine concern, I don't have an issue with it.
This is a public forum, where everyone has the right to speak, share news, opinions, discuss issues (good or bad)and so forth.
Some of the concerns relating to the new Amazon has caused HP to pull the TOS and revisit them, due to the lack of clarity. Had it not been for one of the hubbers that brought that to the forum, it's unlikely to have happened.
Namecalling no. Constructive criticism yes.
I was concerned after Panda hit with the waves of Hubpage haters in the forums damaging a site where I earned well enough and where I thought the staff were doing a decent job in difficult circumstances.
Now, I just don't care. Hubpages is secure for the time being. Anyone with ability can do well. What more can you ask?
I reckon that last remark was a little unfair (assuming that it is a real name).
Not really. He used my real name. His real name is hardly a secret (countless results in Google).
And, look, I've given him yet another thing to fume about.
I reckon you need a bit of a rage yourself. And why not?
You have absorbed a huge amount of nonsense in these forums.
Having said that, I still think real names should be kept out of here.
This is why I detest HP's multiple name policy.
Fine - allow multiple hubbing accounts. But I really, really hate multiple accounts in the forums.
Yes, I'm griping. No, i'm not threatening to leave :-)
But, You have never seen me rage .. perhaps when I made a single phone call to stop your little DocStoc issue when your office was still running about claiming to be sending emails is a better example of what rocking this boat can lead to.
I think you owe me a public apology
When times are wrong, even those whom we 'think' immune to wrong actions, do so. That's what history teaches. Believe nobody!
respectability is ...
Wow, you really got me going now ... the horror!
I wonder how your attempts to rile me up reflect on your professionalism in the rest of your duties?
Is this the status quo in the office? Your right ..you did give me more to "rage" about ... why would I as a user trust you to access to sales and conversion data after a tantrum like this?
But, I forgive you. I just dont trust you now.
A few points if I may?
1. I thought the rules say you can only use one account for forum posting? There should NEVER be any breaking of rules by HP staff - it is doubly unfair on non staff members.
2. Real names should never be used on an internet forum. I need a guarantee from HP that NEVER will my real name be divulged under any circumstances. This is vital to some people.
3. Constructive criticism is healthy, useful and should be encouraged. Other Hubbers and HP themselves could occasionally learn from it. The most important event of this year, the Panda slap, was flagged up by Hubbers who were in turn shouted down. It was useful to know what was going on - particularly from those on here such as sunforged who are in my opinion... experts.
4. Ranting isn't healthy. It's boring. Save it for a humorous hub or something.
5. I dislike cheer leading equally the same as constant moaning. I would like to read the truth, or an approximation of it.
6. To answer the OP. I am very happy with HubPages. The software, site, staff and people - it's a pretty good place. It's not perfect. If I was an internet expert who was making a good living on here and then lost it, and was largely ignored by HP when offering suggestions - I would be less than happy.
One further thought on the last few months, well since Panda really. As an impartial observer, sort of, I watched the experts versus HP. One thing I thought HP missed out on was using the valuable and free expertise available. In their position I would have formed a working party consisting of people like sunforged, Oli, Mark Knowles and so on, plus a couple of HP staff - and done some sitting round the table to work together on the problem.
I reckon staff members have the right to participate as hubbers when they clearly are hubbers.
As for the 'experts'. You really think that there were any experts on Panda anywhere on the net in those first few months after it hit?
Hubpages was the first out of the pit and kudos to them for it.
As for committees...
Oh go on then. I'll bite.
Staff are welcome to run separate accounts. But it doesn't seem right to me that the 'hubber' who is spouting off is also a staff member. A bit like plain clothes police or agent provocateurs.
Panda experts. No. Internet experts. Yes. As a non expert myself I consistently and loudly argued that HP should clean up the crap and introduce better monitoring for new writers. I was ignored. It was the crap that brought HP down, and the accidental subdomain discovery that enabled the crap to be separated.
What if they had got rid of the crap to start with? Would all the other changes have been necessary?
I know what you mean by committees. It's easy to mock. Less easy to be constructive perhaps.
'A bit like plain clothes police or agent provocateurs.'
I think you might be taking this a little too seriously. Next you will be saying you live in fear of a knock at the door and deportation to Squidoo.
As for committees,I have nothing really against them.
They are fine for deciding how many trains it will take to shift all the dissenters to the frozen North at dead of night without anyone noticing.
No, I think he's right.
I don't like sockpuppets in general and having a dual identity as staff and hubber IS a form of that. On the other hand, posting personal opinions as staff could be confusing, so I do see that side of it.
If I were a member of staff and wanted to post as "pcunix" also, I'd put a disclaimer on those posts "(Tony Lawrence in real life and the above represents my personal opinion only)".
But that's just me.
Third agreement, we keep going like this and I will have to let you buy me a pint of Guinness.
Many of us didn't get hit, except on Hupages.
It was nice of you to remove the name, Jason, but I didnt ask for that. I asked for an apology. If the use of my name was damaging, the damage would have already been done.
I dont know if your comments were specifically directed at me as someone who had "conspiracy theories" and such ... but, if so, that would be incorrect. I point out when policy changes are going to negatively either effect my income or my ability to earn due to the importance of my access to the data that your new changes will limit and in turn provide you.
Prior to the subdomain switch I discussed the futility of "witch hunting" existing members when the front door was off the hinges allowing for masses of spam hubs from new users. I also discussed the arbitrary nature of commercial to text ratios and "relatedness"
Unless you guys secretly kept a large portion of hubs and hub accounts immune to that change before and after the subdomain switch you have no way of knowing whether that long and annoying process had any effect on the placement of this site.
You were/are also sticking tons of obviously unrelated ads from the hpad programs across the hub network while demonizing amazon capsules and nitpicking what products were related.
This isnt tin foil hat stuff ... it all happened. Sorry I wasnt clapping. I supported your subdomain decision 5 minutes after the first OMG Panda thread hit this forum. (Months before it occurred)
In that post-panda climate I had at least 6 or 7 hubs unpublished for lengths of time that were republished with the admission of technical errors and new moderation errors on your side!
Im still here. Before I saw my efforts being damaged by unfocused moves .. I was equally as loud in this community helping with takedown efforts on many large scale thefts of this sites content, participating in a hubber born effort that created nearly 1500 hubs for this site ... that did have a focus on quality and inter-writer support and revision. I think you interviewed me? ... so Ive always been vocal, and Im not anti-hub - or a conspiracy nut, im a person protecting an income stream, talking in what I thought was an open forum.
So I dont appreciate your jab in the least .. I pointed out an obvious bending of the rules in your regards .. the link is in blue right over there on the left... in what way was your response justified as JM staff member or as LL - someone who often discusses the importance of faith in their life?
When Im vocal here, its because I would love to see you all try harder to find a way to maintain a system that benefits both experienced and inexperienced, commercial and non-commercial writers ...thats it just try harder ... it still is way early to be having a cheerleader section, we both know that.
I would still appreciate the apology.
Why is ancient history still so potent for some people?
Will I be obliged to listen to accounts of the Panda purges for the rest of recorded time?
Anyway, I am off to get drunk. The worse that can happen is that one of my Irish friends will say something like 'And the Battle of the Boyne, what do you think about that then?'
I am very happy here to the point where I am quite addicted.
What makes me unhappy is to see the insults and bad behavior by adults. If there are children here then please let us know!
I agree with you SirDent.
One more thing, when you are leaving, don't write a hub about it or announce it in the forums....WE DON'T WANT TO KNOW!
ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS UP AND LEAVE...DON'T MAKE A BIG DEAL!
There is a way to voice your concerns without the 'unhappy' factor. Everyone gets frustrated at some point. I don't have any complaints about hubpages, because I'm pretty good with figuring things out. It's also important to 'read' about things before participating and wait awhile to see where your niche is. I haven't made much on hubpages to be honest. That doesn't determine if I am 'happy' or not. I just don't think I have all the knowledge I need to promote my hubs so I'm still learning and watching and asking questions. It might be some time before things start to kick off, but I can say they are progressing.
I agree with you that we should read and get an idea of the rules and how things are done first.
It is also okay to complain but when people start insulting each other it just upsets me. If you have a problem or concern voice it and you will get assistance.
I joined hp around 6 days ago. I didn't think of making money on hp before, just wanted to post my writings and read those of others. My first impression is that the hubpages team are helpful. They reply my email quickly and make sure I understand what is happening to my hub. I'm not sure about the future, but until now, my answer is I'm happy with hubpages
Just an observation, but isn't this all just a little bit like complaining about complainers?
5 hours ago
livelonger posted this message to the topic Are You Unhappy with HubPages? on the HubPages Tutorials and Community Forum
Hope I will see his face again ...
When it comes to staff members in the forums, I actually don't have any probelm with Jason posting under Live Longer in a thread that has nothing to do with Hubpages. However if a thread DOES have something to do with Hubpags I think it would be preferable to use his main account.
I use my other Hubname (Paul Edmondson), when posting about official HubPages business
By the way you got any reply from Paul, regarding your job application ?
And you are trying to get a job offer from yourself, right?
Need for a victim and blood in the air.
If Livelonger disappears as an identity I will know that the witch hunting mentality of Salem, Mass is alive and well.
I think Jason has a thick skin. He has to have in his job. :-)
I'm actually a pretty sensitive person.
What's actually helped is understanding people's motivations to rant. Some have legitimate complaints, as you've mentioned; there is absolutely nothing wrong with that, and we actually encourage honest feedback. Some are querulants--they'll never be happy no matter what. What had been harder for me to discern are people who have a vested interest in playing up and even feigning indignation and anger. I don't fall for their act anymore.
And, although it's probably abundantly clear to anyone who's been on the site for a while and who might be reading this thread, I'm Jason Menayan. These opinions are my own, and I'm entitled to them.
I think negative comments or raising problems one is having on here is fine and important. Expecting nothing but pleasantness and neutrality on here is like expecting no bad news in the newspapers. I used to tell my kids, though, "If you're angry or upset we want you talk about it, and tell us; but people can be angry or upset and still act respectful toward others and be civil." There's a big difference between being unhappy with something that goes on on a site like this and implying that the people running the site (and/or any others on it) are "stupid" or "evil".
I don't even mind if someone (lots of people) have one, long-running, problem/issue on here and keep coming on and letting others know what's going on (or voice their own challenges with it). Again - important and constructive, in terms of the community's being informed about what's going on and any challenges.
There's a point, though, where things can turn from being legitimate, honest, "sharing-of-challenges/problems" into being unproductive, useless, counter-productive, and "life-sucking" to others (who may or may not already be dealing with their own kind of dissatisfaction/concern, and who really don't need anyone else working against their efforts to deal with his own version of the same issue(s) or deal with his own, different, set of challenges. There's also a difference between people who come on here and imply (or say) that they essentially hate this site and/or have no use for it whatsoever - and yet who keep showing up on here anyway. There are generally four different things that doing that says about the person who does it - and none of them is very flattering (and not very conducive to having even a legitimate complaint/concern heard either). There's a reason so many large corporations and institutions have the expectation of professional behavior, and that's because it's effective, works well in group settings, and generally establishes that respect for others makes a big difference in how well things get done.
Pcunix - curiosity got the best of me. I reduced the word "querulant" to the base word "querul". Unfortunately, it is not allowed in Scrabble, but if you scramble it into "liqueur" you can use it. After all, isn't liqueur an effect of querulant? lol Then again it works both ways - isn't querulant an effect of liqueur???
16 points minimum - unless you TW it!! hehe
At the moment, I'm content. I'm new and learning my way around. We'll see how I feel after another couple of months, lol.
So - who are all the other staff members with second accounts sock-puppeting the forums ?
Does this explain the random bannings for moderate insults - was I insulting a moron who is also a member of staff ?
Can we trust HP staff with our information or will they (as Jason threatened) use that supposedly confidential information for their own use ?
Forum poster and moderator is the criminal, policeman, judge and executioner.
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