Chaos the Void - Before the Beginning

Farthest-Ever View of the Universe ~

Astronomers have assembled a new, improved portrait of mankind's deepest-ever view of the universe. Called the eXtreme Deep Field, or XDF, the photo was assembled by combining 10 years of NASA Hubble Space Telescope photographs.
Astronomers have assembled a new, improved portrait of mankind's deepest-ever view of the universe. Called the eXtreme Deep Field, or XDF, the photo was assembled by combining 10 years of NASA Hubble Space Telescope photographs. | Source

Not a rebuttal or criticism ~

Chaos the Void, from ancient Greek mythology, is the basis of my thought process and beliefs on how to respond to Glenn Stok's article: Where Was God Before The Beginning?


I would like to make it clear that this article is not a rebuttal or criticism of Glenn's article - nor is it a debate of opinions and beliefs. It is an attempt to present some thoughts and questions to ponder on as Glenn did so well in his article. Glenn put out some very deep thought-provoking questions that I found very challenging and he did it in a way that is refreshing, as opposed to heated debates on religion and personal beliefs. I commend him for being able to do this.

Was Greek mythology once a firm belief?

Some may think there is no comparison between today's religious beliefs and Greek mythology. Yet, we must remember that at one time people never called the stories "mythology" - they were beliefs. The ancient people believed in their gods, goddesses, war heroes and battles for supremacy. They worshiped Gaia as the Mother goddess.

They believed the goddess of the harvest would bless them with an abundance of foods if the people made offerings to her, gifted the goddess with festivals in her honor and prayed for good crops. Each member of the Greek pantheon, and they are numerous, has a specific attribute and was worshiped for those exact blessings. A pregnant woman would pray to the goddess of motherhood. A newly married couple would pray to the god or goddess of fertility.

The reason I have gone into Greek mythology is to make us think that possibly some day our religions and beliefs of today will be termed mythology by future civilizations - and I firmly believe this. Will they wonder what was our "Beginning" and where was God before the beginning? What will they perceive as "the beginning" or as God? Will they believe it all started after a cataclysmic event? As Glenn mentioned, does time repeat itself and is there to be another such catastrophe?

There was a lot of panic, theories and jokes being tossed around about the year 2012 and the Mayan Calendar. It is (or was) believed that because the last year on the calendar was 2012, the world was to end. Is it not possible that the last year carved on the calendar was just because the carver ran out of room? My theory is that the Mayans believed time will repeat itself so why carve it all out? Now, see - that would take one humongous stone.

What was in existence before the "Big Bang"?

Aha ! This is, to many people, The Beginning. (I do not believe the Big Bang was the beginning, so when I refer to it I am referring to the theory that scientists believe.) Did that event start a chain of events that gave birth to what eventually became our ancestral civilizations? Planetary scientists believe the Big Bang created the Universe about 13 billion years ago when a huge explosion of extremely hot and dense matter expanded. As this cooled off the transitions of all that matter went through many phases. The Universe is still expanding since that explosion.

Well, what was before the Big Bang? The solar system is over 4.6 billion years old. This event, the Big Bang, happened then before the solar system was created. So, does that not show that there was something out there before what scientists believe was The Beginning?

And where was God before this Big Bang?

According to SSERVI Solar system Exploration Research, formerly the NASA Lunar Science Institute:

... according to a leading theory now being explored in detail, that early era was capped by a truly cataclysmic event. About 3.9 billion years ago, the movement of the most massive planets dramatically rearranged the outer solar system. The shifting planets freed rocky and icy bodies from the solar system’s edge, commencing a bombardment of the entire retinue of planets.

So, apparently more explosions rearranged the Universe.

According to the Oxford Dictionaries, Universe is defined as:

All existing matter and space considered as a whole; the cosmos. The universe is believed to be at least 10 billion light years in diameter and contains a vast number of galaxies; it has been expanding since its creation in the Big Bang about 13 billion years ago.

Interesting.

Order out of Chaos ~

Was there anything before that cataclysmic event? Of coure there was. Some forces caused pieces of rock and ice to start moving, picking up speed and flinging them helter skelter.

Hesiod was an ancient Greek poet who was active between 750 and 650 BC. Scholars today still consider Hesiod a major source of archaic Greek astronomy and ancient time-keeping. There we have two important factors of Universal knowledge and creation of the Universe - astronomy and time-keeping.

According to Hesiod, Chaos was the primeval void - the first thing which existed. This void was a mass of swirling debris, gases, rocks, ice, dust and who knows what else. Is it possible that these swirling masses that had no clear direction were the conscious or subconscious thoughts of God? Thoughts that were forming? Is it possible that these explosions and rearranging of planets were the thoughts of God, working to bring some kind of order out of Chaos?

To those who believe in God, He/She is All That Is, The One, The Mysterious, Omnipotent, Omniscience, and so vast that it is difficult to imagine Him/Her in human form or in any form small enough to envision.

Could these thoughts, the swirling masses, when they came together, have been God's Creation plan - thus the force that made the masses find direction and begin to bombard the solar system to rearrange and create the solar system we know now, plus other galaxies?

How is it that Hesiod, in his time, had the same theory that scientists of today are working on? Hmmmm?

Was Hesiod's primaeval void the same as the Black Hole?

Simulated view of a black hole in front of the Large Magellanic Cloud ~

The ratio between the black hole Schwarzschild radius and the observer distance to it is 1:9. Of note is the gravitational lensing effect known as an Einstein ring.
The ratio between the black hole Schwarzschild radius and the observer distance to it is 1:9. Of note is the gravitational lensing effect known as an Einstein ring. | Source

Gaia from the Chaos ~

Prior to the "Beginning" there was the Void, Chaos.

This is where God was before what scientists and the Bible call "The Beginning". Now think about that for a minute. "In the beginning, God ..." This to me means that God’s thoughts came together to start a project and "in the beginning of this project God created the Heavens and the Earth." It does not mean "before there was anything existing God created the Heavens and the Earth", for surely there was a beginning long before the Big Bang.

Now, from this void, the Chaos, after it began to pull together the masses and thoughts, came Gaia, the Mother Goddess of all that is in all the Universe.

She was Earth itself, the primordial deity. All that is was born from Her. Hesiod told of how Gaia rose up to the everlasting seat of Olympus above all (Heaven?). And she also ruled over the dark Tartarus (Hell?) below.

Many people still worship Gaia as Goddess of the Earth and that She is the Earth. Many refer to Earth as Mother Earth.

So - does this tell us where God was before the "Beginning"? And does it mean that God just always was, got lonesome so created things to nurture and care for?

~ ~ ~ ~

Gaia, Mother of All Creation ~

Gaia, primordial Mother goddess.
Gaia, primordial Mother goddess. | Source

Did this article give you some new thoughts to think about?

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Note from author ~

Thank you for reading my article. Your opinions are important to me and let me know your interests. This helps me to offer more of your favorite subjects to read about. Your time and interest are very much appreciated. I hope to hear from you in the comments section below.

I write on several different subjects, all evergreen articles. You can read more about me and see more articles I wrote by clicking on my name by the small picture of me at the top right of this page.

Blessings and may you always walk in Peace and Harmony, softly upon Mother Earth.

Phyllis Doyle Burns - Lantern Carrier, Spiritual Mentor

~ ~ ~ ~

© 2015 Phyllis Doyle Burns

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Comments 37 comments

Jodah profile image

Jodah 16 months ago from Queensland Australia

As always this is a wonderful article Phyllis and your thoughts on the matter coincide with my own. Now I have to go and read Glenn's article, as I read this one first. Thanks for the great read. Voted up.


Phyllis Doyle profile image

Phyllis Doyle 16 months ago from High desert of Nevada. Author

Hey Jodah ! Thank you for being my first commenter on this hub and for the vote. I really appreciate it. I am glad to hear our thoughts coincide on this subject. That is awesome. Even so, I think you will enjoy reading Glenn's hub. He presented his thoughts in a very interesting way that I found it enjoyable. Thanks again, Jodah. Have a great day.


whonunuwho profile image

whonunuwho 16 months ago from United States

This was a well presented article and well received. My thoughts are quite similar about the beginning of it all. I believe that our thoughts about the universe and the creator reflect our own humanity. We may accept our creator by faith. We have seen an awful lot of mighty mysterious "coincidences" in almost every venue of science. and our scriptural accounts are very compelling in many areas. I keep telling those who have doubts about the scriptures of the Bible and remind them that they were written by human hands inspired by God. Thanks for your nice work. whonu


Phyllis Doyle profile image

Phyllis Doyle 16 months ago from High desert of Nevada. Author

Hi whonu. Such a great comment you leave for me to enjoy. Thank you. Yes, there are many "mysterious coincidences" in science: Thank you so much for reading and contributing with your comment. I really appreciate it.


MizBejabbers profile image

MizBejabbers 16 months ago

Very well presented, Phyllis. I did read this article first and hope to find time to read Glen's article before the day is over. One scientific program on either the History2 or Science Channel presented the Big Bang as a "fold" in the universe. He made the comparison to the universe constantly folding up on itself to the folding of a cake mixture in an electric mixer. Food for though, anyway. So many ways to look at it, so little time (for us).


Phyllis Doyle profile image

Phyllis Doyle 16 months ago from High desert of Nevada. Author

Hi MizB and thank you for the very nice comment. That is interesting about the Big Bang being like a fold in the Universe. I think maybe the black holes would have something to do with that action. Thanks again for reading and commenting. I appreciate it.


Jo_Goldsmith11 profile image

Jo_Goldsmith11 16 months ago

Science never really held my interest. And I didn't care for it much in school. I think maybe it's because science can't really explain everything. Because God isn't scientific. He is creative. :-))

The wisdom the scientists believe they have, sometimes isn't settled by just the act of measuring or using telescopes.

I did enjoy reading this. It gives me something good to ponder.

Up and shared. :-))


Phyllis Doyle profile image

Phyllis Doyle 16 months ago from High desert of Nevada. Author

Hi Jo. I was never too interested in science either in my school years. Today I am a little more tolerant and find some science interesting.

Thanks so much for the visit and leaving a comment, votes and share - I really appreciate it.


tobusiness profile image

tobusiness 16 months ago from Bedfordshire, U.K

One day it will all make sense, piece by piece the jigsaw will come together. I believe that the universe will give up its secret, but only time will tell. Thought-provoking and very interesting.


Phyllis Doyle profile image

Phyllis Doyle 16 months ago from High desert of Nevada. Author

Hi Jo (tobusiness). Hope all is well with you. Thank you so much for stopping by to read and comment. I agree, some day she will give up her secret. Have a great evening.


always exploring profile image

always exploring 16 months ago from Southern Illinois

You've raised some interesting questions. I found your article informative and full of ancient history. ( Which I love. ) I personally don't know how anyone can not believe in God. The BIG bang theory is interesting but incomplete. Only God could make man and animals. Just think about the way he made a man and woman. I do believe there is much we do not know or understand, that's what makes the study of the universe so interesting. Voted up...


Glenn Stok profile image

Glenn Stok 16 months ago from Long Island, NY

Phyllis, Thanks for your kind words about my hub. I'm glad I inspired you to write other thoughts to ponder. Your way of writing and offering your opinion is also very refreshing and you brought up some interesting comparisons.

I wouldn't exactly call the Big Band a catastrophe, however. It was, on the other hand, the start of the present Universe as we know it. And besides, the end of the world, assuming we end up imploding into a black hole again, is not going to happen suddenly during our lifetimes. If the Universe does reach an expansion point were gravity starts to pull things back together, it will happen long after life as we know it will be gone.

Life can only be supported in the special environment that exists on Earth at the present. The Earth was too volatile in its early existence to support life. And it will become that way again as our sun dies. It's a slow process. So we don't need to worry that we wake up one day to discover it's the end, as the Mayan's has predicted. You are right about that.

At one point you asked, "if there was a solar system in place before the Voila! explosions, how could the Big Bang have created the Universe if it already existed?"

Not to argue, but rather to clear up the confusion, allow me to explain. I took a look at the site you got your information from, from the link in your references. They were talking about the formation of OUR solar system, which was about 4.6 billion years ago. That’s long after the Big Bang!

Those explosions you refer to, happening 3.9 billion years ago, or 700 million years after the start of our solar system, were not the Big Bang. You said so yourself later in your hub, where you quoted the Oxford Dictionary, that the actual Big Bang happened 13 billion years ago. And as far as we know from scientific study, you are right!

So I think you were confusing the start of the Universe (Big Bang) with the start of our solar system. And as far as all the other billions of solar systems, they all started at different times. Many are gone already as we can tell when we see a white draft, which are the remnants of a dead sun.

You deserve to be commanded for the immense research you did in such a short time to write this hub. You found some interesting facts.

That "rearrangement of the outer solar system" that you found happened 3.9 billion years ago was a very small event in the scheme of things, effecting only our own solar system, and only our outer planets, just as you said. It didn't even have anything to do with other solar systems in our galaxy. And it didn't have anything to do with other galaxies in the Universe. So I guess you lead towards the same conclusion as I had, that we don’t have an answer to where God was before the beginning. Interesting.

By the way, I also like your analogy to "Chaos Theory." This is something I always found very interesting. It indicates that all things eventually find an underlying order within apparent randomness. Your comparison to chaos brings up some interesting thoughts, such as attempting to answer the question if God's hand was involved in all the chaos, forcing "order" out of it. Very interesting! Well done.


Phyllis Doyle profile image

Phyllis Doyle 16 months ago from High desert of Nevada. Author

Hi Ruby. I am very glad you found my article informative and interesting. Study of the Universe is so deep with so many variable theories and thoughts that it does make it all very interesting. Thanks, Ruby, for the visit, comment and vote - I really appreciate it.


Phyllis Doyle profile image

Phyllis Doyle 16 months ago from High desert of Nevada. Author

Hi Glenn. Thank you so much for reading and commenting. I see what you are saying about my confusion with the numbers. I will have to go back over the hub and correct those parts.

I really appreciate your thoughts and open mind in regards to my "Chaos theory". Thanks again, Glenn. Have a great day.


kittythedreamer profile image

kittythedreamer 16 months ago from the Ether

Phyllis - I've often wondered about the beginning and man's origins, particularly. So much so that I'll sit and think about it for hours and it will totally blow my mind! I always wonder, if we only know about details from the past 6000 years or so...and if humans have been around for millions of years, what happened to all that time in between what we know and when we began? There's so much we don't know about our own origins, much less the universe. Sometimes I think we should start with man's origins and then once we figure that out branch out from there. LOL. Great hub!


Phyllis Doyle profile image

Phyllis Doyle 16 months ago from High desert of Nevada. Author

Hi Kitty. Origins of our beginnings have always been of great interest to me. I often ponder over it,. especially when I have past life recalls. I love delving into mythology and finding comparisons with life as we know it. I truly believe the ancient Greeks (and Romans and other cultures) knew things we do not yet know. I never really thought the ancients made up these stories of gods, goddesses and miraculous events.

Thank you, Kitty, for the visit and comment. I really appreciate it.


Phyllis Doyle profile image

Phyllis Doyle 16 months ago from High desert of Nevada. Author

Hello Glenn. I revised this hub to correct the errors I had on the numbers for the Universe.

I really appreciate the long and detailed comment you left here. If you have time, could you review this hub and see if I did a better job of placing the Big Bang in the correct time?

I know you and I do not agree to same theories / thoughts, but, I would still appreciate a second look see from you. Thanks, Glenn.


Glenn Stok profile image

Glenn Stok 16 months ago from Long Island, NY

Per your request I reviewed your hub again, but I don't see where you changed anything.

You still say "before the beginning there were 700 million years that we know very little, if anything about."

You refer to the beginning as the Big Bang. Okay, I can't judge that. As I discuss in my hub, time may be cyclic. Or the universe may be oscillating to repeat once again. We can only talk about what we know. The 700 million years you talk about is the period immediately AFTER the Big Bang. I'll explain.

We presently have the technology to scientifically monitor the cosmic microwave background radiation (CMBR) and calculate backwards from that. It follows backward to a single point in the Universe. Theory has it that this might be the point of the Big Bang.

The trajectories of the CMBR have been measured and are consistent with observable galactic motion. Using mathematics this easily deduces that this dates back about 13.8 billion years where it merges into a single point.

By following the movement of all the galaxies that we can see with present technology, we have a fairly well defined growth path of the Universe from that single point. The problem is that the first 700 million years is not clear. Cosmologists call this the inflation event. That's the period you are still saying was "before the beginning." But it's the initial inflation period when the universe went through exponential growth.

You asked me to correct you with the dates, so I did. But as far as stating whether there was anything before the beginning, or if God created the beginning, or if God had time to think about it all before the beginning - that's all left for theorists. I'm not going to judge it one way or the other, which is why I had written my hub as I had.


Phyllis Doyle profile image

Phyllis Doyle 16 months ago from High desert of Nevada. Author

Thanks, Glenn, for coming back.

I have not changed my thoughts / theories about where God was before the beginning and and when was the beginning. All I eliminated in my revision was when the Big Bang occurred, because I misunderstood and thought it happened 3.9 billion years ago, in

which case there would have been a solar system before the Big Bang.

I do not claim the Big Bang was the beginning, for I do not believe it was. I refer to scientists believing the Big Bang was the beginning

and I do not agree with that.

Yes, I agree the 700 million years was immediately after the Big Bang - another error I made and have removed from my hub. Thank you.

I still maintain that the Big Bang was not the beginning because Chaos, the Void had already existed. And, as Hesiod proclaimed, I believe that "According to Hesiod, Chaos was the primeval void - the first thing which existed. This void was a mass of swirling debris, gases, rocks, ice, dust and who knows what else. Is it possible that these swirling masses that had no clear direction were the conscious or subconscious thoughts of God? Thoughts that were forming?"

I am not trying to change anyone's beliefs or theories, only expressing mine - AND admitting I made a mistake as to when the Big Bang happened.

Thanks again, Glenn, for your time and comments.


whonunuwho profile image

whonunuwho 16 months ago from United States

Phyllis we may all believe and have faith our God has granted us. I enjoyed your work very much my friend and you certainly have my support. Blessings.whonu


Phyllis Doyle profile image

Phyllis Doyle 16 months ago from High desert of Nevada. Author

Yes, I agree with you, whonu. Thank you so much for your support and friendship.


Romeos Quill profile image

Romeos Quill 16 months ago from Lincolnshire, England

Another fascinating Hub article from you dear Phyllis and it was interesting to learn about the poet Hesiod's impact on some modern theories behind the great questions which baffle, excite and stimulate our intellects and sense of wonderment.

Have you ever contemplated what existed before even the darkness itself became visible?

There are so many mind-blowing ideas, thoughts and theories out there and perhaps we shall never be in full receipt of all the answers, with our ignorance exceeding our knowledge but one thing is for certain; we live on a beautiful planet with a great view :)

The awe and majesty of celestial and terrestrial glory always captivates and makes me appreciate just how generous and bountiful our Creator God truly is.

Thumbs up and happy to share;

Sincerely;

R.Q.


Phyllis Doyle profile image

Phyllis Doyle 16 months ago from High desert of Nevada. Author

Ahhh, warm fuzzy feeling here for your comment, R.Q. Bless your dear heart.

There are indeed some "mind-blowing thoughts" out there. I just read some on Glenn Stok's hub "Where was God before the Beginning". One commenter said maybe God is time itself, beyond our comprehension (something like that) and another analogy was we are like tiny ants to God. These are thoughts I have had myself - that our Creator God is so All That Is, it is hard for us to visualize Him.

"Before even the darkness itself became invisible?" Gosh, Romeo, what a thought-provoking question that is. I can only feel that God just always was. Wow - now you got me contemplating even more.

I so appreciate your visit and comment, thank you, Dear and Beloved Poet.


teaches12345 profile image

teaches12345 16 months ago

Your writing topic is interesting and informative. I am amazed at the vastness of our universe and the depth of space. I know one day God will reveal it all to us -- in His time.


Phyllis Doyle profile image

Phyllis Doyle 16 months ago from High desert of Nevada. Author

Hi Dianne. Thank you for the visit and comment. It definitely is amazing, this Universe of ours.


annart profile image

annart 16 months ago from SW England

What a fascinating article putting forward this hypothesis. Very interesting. It's the age old question isn't it? Which came first,....?

Well presented, well argued, well balanced. In fact, an excellent article. I tend to think that God just 'was' and that everything else followed. I don't even try to work out exactly what form, if any, God was.

Ann


Phyllis Doyle profile image

Phyllis Doyle 16 months ago from High desert of Nevada. Author

Hi Ann. Thank you so much for the very nice comment. I believe God always was, too, is in everything, is All. It is good and as it should be. Thanks again and have a great evening.


Faith Reaper profile image

Faith Reaper 16 months ago from southern USA

Dear Phyllis,

Ah, yes, the wonder of it all indeed! My little pea brain cannot even begin to comprehend it all. I do believe that God has always been and will always be, long before the Big Bang happened. Plus, if one truly thinks about it, there is this huge fraction that is mind-boggling in and of itself to show that for all of this to even be so that we are even able to take one breath in perfect harmony ...if that fraction were off just a minute bit, we would not be here. So, to me that says that God certainly spoke us into existence, whether that was the Big Bang or not, for us to even be here there had to be a Creator. He gives us a hint in His Word that the place He has prepared for us is a place that no man has seen or nor mind can even comprehend ... and all of the exquisite beauty found on this earth in different spots, is just a glimpse of what He has in store for us.

Blessings always


Phyllis Doyle profile image

Phyllis Doyle 16 months ago from High desert of Nevada. Author

OMGosh, Faith - I so agree with all you say. Profound thoughts and belief. Thank you so very much for the visit and your wonderful comment. I really appreciate it. Bless you, dear one.


DJ Anderson 15 months ago

Phyllis, I follow you, yet am never notified of any new hubs or comments on other hubs. I see you on Randy's site so, I know you are still hanging around.

I wrote you a private e-mail earlier this week, and thought you might be out of town until I saw you had made a comment to Randy just hours ago.

When I am writing in "Word" I am not notified of incoming mail or HP comments. I might not get right back to you. Read my e-mail and think it over. The product I speak of is not grown in my neck of the woods.

Let me know if you find my e-mail.

Thanks,

DJ.


Phyllis Doyle profile image

Phyllis Doyle 15 months ago from High desert of Nevada. Author

DJ Anderson, this comment section is for comments on the hub, not for off-topic messages. I have not received an email from you.


DJ Anderson 15 months ago

Phyllis, are you the one who wrote the above message?

DJ.


Phyllis Doyle profile image

Phyllis Doyle 15 months ago from High desert of Nevada. Author

I am - and STOP using my hub comment section unless you want to comment on my hub. Also I have no idea what you are referring to as "product". Are you spamming me? I will NOT accept any more comments from you unless they pertain to my hub.

As I said: I DID NOT RECEIVE A PRIVATE EMAIL FROM YOU. You can send another if you like, but if it is about some product you are trying to sell, do not bother contacting me about it.


brutishspoon profile image

brutishspoon 14 months ago from Darlington, England

This is one of those subjects that can get great debates going. I beleive everything has a beginning but that you cannot create something from nothingness. For me a cyclic model of the universe is probably the most viable. I am not overly religious but am open minded on that front and will always look a different ideas that come from religions.

My thoughts on the subject are posted in the hub linked below

http://hubpages.com/education/How-the-Universe-Beg...


Phyllis Doyle profile image

Phyllis Doyle 14 months ago from High desert of Nevada. Author

Hi brutishspoon.Yes, this is a controversial subject. I will go check out your hub. Thanks for stopping by and commenting.


rajan jolly profile image

rajan jolly 10 months ago from From Mumbai, presently in Jalandhar,INDIA.

The thoughts as to what existed before the beginning ,as we know it today, is always interesting to read and has always been debated.

As our Scripture says, and I'm talking of the Sikh Scripture, there was a void; a vacumm, before this beginning. And the universe was created, just as a game of play, by the Lord.

That said, there are questions galore, to which we have only conjectures, no definitive answers.


Phyllis Doyle profile image

Phyllis Doyle 10 months ago from High desert of Nevada. Author

Hi rajan. Thank you for reading and for your very interesting comment. I much appreciate it

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