Do we have any scientific proof that Jesus existed or is it just our faith?

3D Features

A note to the requester of this hub....

The hubber "Stooge" requested this hub ... when another hubber answered it he said .. 'when I said scientific proofs, I actually meant archaeological, forensic and other such incidences. Personally, I am not a big believer in proofs recorded in historical books because as they say, "History is written by the winners". Still, I am not taking anything away from the historians or those who believe in them.'

Well, Stooge, this hub is a high level overview of my favorite forensic "evidence", The Shroud of Turin, presumed by many to be the burial cloth of Jesus Christ.

Since this is arguably the most studied artifact in modern history, A single hub cannot do it justice. So, I will provide iinks (both pro and con) so you can investigate in more detail if you'd like.

(I Recently added a new hub on the non-scientific aspects of the Shroud)

What is it?

I first became aware of The Shroud of Turin in 1979 when I took a trip the US Air Force Academy and listened to a member of the Shroud of Turin Research Project discuss his role in the scientific examination of the Shroud.

The Shroud of Turin is a piece of yellowed linen about 14 feet long by 3.5 feet wide. lt contains the faint Image of a 6 foot tall man who was beaten and crucified. The shroud has unique scientific properties that so far have eluded definitive analysis.

 

Natural Light Photo of the Shroud

Click on the Image to see more detail.
Click on the Image to see more detail.

A Very Short History

The Shroud can be definitively traced to 1357 where a French Knight, Geoffrey de Charny, had it displayed in a church at Lirey, France. The fact that it was introduced into known history at a time when the counterfeit artifact industry was in full swing is probably the single biggest argument against its authenticity.

Though many churchmen believed it to be the burial cloth of Christ, the church has never officially endorsed it as such. However, it would be publicly displayed periodically, often at weddings of nobility and other special occasions.

The shroud has been rescued from several fires over the centuries, inculding one in 1532 and another in 1997.

Negative Image of the Shroud

Scientific Discoveries - The Beginning

The Shroud was considered a curiosity, and assumed by most intellectuals to be a clever fake until 1898, when it was to photographed for the first time by Secondo Pia, an Itallian lawyer.

While developing the plates, Pia discovered that the negative image showed the face of the man in the Shroud even more clearly than the Shroud itself. The Shroud had properties of a photgraphic negative.

This was the beginning of modern scientific interest of the shroud.

The current scientific consensus is that the cloth is probably one of four things:

  1. A Medieval work of art (or clever forgery)
  2. A Medieval “Custom Crucifixion”
  3. Someone else who died by crucifixion in the 1st century
  4. The actual shroud of Jesus

Most of the scientists who have studied the Shroud have not tried to prove which of those four it is. They have primarily focused on what has caused the image.

 

1970's Cardboard Images

These 3D images from the shroud were cut by US Air Force Academy Computers
These 3D images from the shroud were cut by US Air Force Academy Computers

3D Features and Other Analysis

In 1976 NASA Scientists analyzed photos of the Shroud with a VP-8 Image Analyzer. The photograph of the Shroud, unlike any regular photograph, drawing or painting, was dimensionally encoded.

In 1978, a group of scientist conducted a five-day, round-the-clock scientific examination of the Shroud. Their mission was discover the cause of the image on the Shroud. Most scientists expected to see the brush strokes and leave.

During this time the Shroud was submitted to photographic floodlighting, to low-power X-rays and to narrow band ultraviolet light. Dozens of pieces of sticky tape were pressed onto its surface and removed.

The data from this analysis makes medieval art (forgery) unlikely. For example,the imange has no brush strokes, paints, pigments etc.  The image is not painted, scorched etc.  The scientists, many of whom are Jewish or agnostic, simply say they do not (yet) know what caused the image on the Shroud.  

Blood Evidence

Those spots that appear to be blood on the Shroud are, in fact, human blood. It is AB Negative. It is human DNA. The DNA markers are consistent with Dr. Frank Tippler's theories on what DNA from a virgin birth might look like. [Physics of Christianity]

Nail Wounds

Blood flow from wrists shown in detail.
Blood flow from wrists shown in detail.

Wounds

Forensic analysis has shown that the wounds shown in the shroud are consistent with the wounds recorded in the gospels. The wrist images, for example show nail wounds and the flow of blood is consistent with that of a man hanging from a cross, with his arms at about a 60 degree angle.

There is a blood flow under the heart that appears to have been formed by the head of a spear consistent with the head of roman lances from known archelogical evidence.

The wounds on the back of the Shroud are consistent with known Roman whips.  

X-Ray Like Qualities

One of the working theories that has not yet been excluded is that the image on the Shroud was created with radiation. This is primarily because image analysis shows that the image on the Shroud have X-Ray like qualiites. A close up of the mouth area, for example, distinctly shows teeth consistent with dental X-rays.

The image below illustrates more of the X-ray like qualities of the Shroud.

It is common among believers to assume that the physical image was produced by radiation during the process of Jesus being raised from the dead

X-Ray Like Qualities of the Shroud Image
X-Ray Like Qualities of the Shroud Image

And More ...

  • Pollen analysis shows large amounts of pollen from a thorny plant native to the Jerusalem area around the head.
  • Image analysis of icons and early Chrisitan art indicate that the Shroud is the likely "original source" for what Jesus looked like.
  • Analysis of weave and material are consistent with first century textiles.
  • The Shroud may be the origin of the "Holy Grail" legend. The likely history, (Starting with Joseph of Arimathea going through the Knights Templar and ending up in France) coinsides with the major points of the Holy Grail legends. 

Not Definitive "Proof"

Chain of Custody Issue

From a "legal proof" standpoint, the "forensic evidence" (i.e. the Shroud) is consistent with the "eyewitness accounts" (i.e the Gospels).

However, because the undisputed history of the Shroud only begins in 1357, there is no way to "prove" that the "evidence" was not faked.

Carbon Dating Issue

In 1988 Carbon dating "proved" that the Shroud dated back no earlier than 1200 AD. (Consistent with known history). For many scientists, that was the end of the issue. Additional data examined in 2004-5, however, cast doubts on the accuracy of the 1988 conclusions. Many of the scientists who particpated in the Carbon 14 tests no longer stand by those results.

Time of Fakery

In the 1350s the market for phoney Christian artifacts was huge. It is not beyond possiblity that some incredibly clever and sadistic forge discovered a way to make images from wrapping a body in a shroud and crucified somebody (evan a volunteer) making sure to follow the gospel accounts precisely.

If that is true, it is one of the greatest works of art in history. The method of image formation is every bit as mysterious and intriguing as the Crystal Skulls.

 

Note on Links and Sites and Bias

Many of these sites appear to try to be objective, but it does seem that every site has a bias (pro or con) on the authenticity of the Shroud.

My personal bias is that I believe it is authentic, but even if it's a fake, it doesn't mean the crucifixion and resurection did not occur.

To the original question, Stooge, faith in something is necessary to believe anything.  Even if it's not faith in God, You need some level of faith in science, faith in the integrity of the data, faith in your own ability to reason etc.  Even if the Shroud is authentic, if you don't have faith in the scientists who did the analysis, or if you presume extreme bias on the part of the presenters, you can disgard all of this "proof" easily, as shown from the links above.  

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Comments 105 comments

sandra rinck 7 years ago

Very interesting. I was wondering what that long pieced picture was, now I know. He kinda looks like Father Time lol. You think we could ever know? Everything surrounding Jesus is a mystery. Some of which I wish were absolutely true others well...um...ahh...

Anyways, cool hub. For myself, I guess it doesn't matter to me whether Jesus was a real man who was raised from the dead, an Alien who came from a Utopian society from a distant planet or a God in the Flesh.

I always found the message to be more important than thumbing or dumbing away at things that will always be privy to some doubt, in which case doubt is a pretty wonderful thing, without it faith wouldn't mean anything!

Awsome hubbing BDaz, hope you had a wondeful Thanksgiving. :) hugs.


BDazzler profile image

BDazzler 7 years ago from Gulf Coast, USA Author

Thanks Sandy! I have always been fascinated with this particular artifact ... I think the shroud is interesting by itself. kind of like your Crystal Skulls hub. In some ways the Crystal Skulls fascinate me more, because with the shroud I can say "Yep It was Jesus" ... the skulls? Really who knows? Clues are even harder to find... I did have a good TGving. Hope you did too. I'm still in "snooze mode" today.


Eddie Perkins 7 years ago

I’ll leave this kind of study up to you young folks.

I don’t trust science anyway.  Those who claim scientific proof of the age of the earth and other such questions have changed their minds too many times to suit me.

I’m like the child in the song; Jesus loves me this I know, because the Bible tells me so”.

All I need to know is that the Bible says Jesus existed from eternity past to eternity future. He was their waiting for me when I came on the scene and He will be there to meet me when I leave this scene and arrive at the place He has prepared for me.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good testimony.  By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible. Hebrews 11:1-3 NKJV

These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them. Hebrews 11:13-16 NKJV

Oh by the way I appreciate this writing.  You’ve addressed a subject I’m sure people are interested in and you handled it very honestly. ~ eddie


BDazzler profile image

BDazzler 7 years ago from Gulf Coast, USA Author

Thanks Eddie .... the Shroud has been an important part of my spiritual and intellectual life. It has helped me see things in a lot of ways.

One day, I felt like had to decide if I believed in Jesus becaue of the Bible, or if I believed the Bible because it fully testifies to Jesus. I realized that my relationship with Jesus has become such that, I believe the bible because it Testifies to Jesus. Not sure why I felt like I needed to know that about myself, but I did.

I appreciate your input and your scripture!


J-Stanley 7 years ago

Awesome stuff. The fact that scientists, namely evolutionists, will try to discount Christian findings, which are of sound scientific and historical relevance, has always amazed me. If they admit that there are ways to reasonably utilize the 'scientific method' to account for Creationism and the existence of a God, there theories will fall flat. There are many questions in our world which will be left un-answered until our passing, and I don't think God will be short on answers. I, like many Christians today, fully belive there is a place for science, but the inverse seems to hardly ever be the case. Keep up the good work.


BDazzler profile image

BDazzler 7 years ago from Gulf Coast, USA Author

Thanks J-S!


Lgali profile image

Lgali 7 years ago

very good info


t.keeley profile image

t.keeley 7 years ago from Seattle, WA

Carbon dating is not reliable. Science claims to "know the answers" while also displaying that it doesn't hold any of the answers. We test models of what we think is happening to "prove" that our models are still doing what we think they're doing. Any real scientist who has actually studied in post-secondary education can tell you that we merely think we're on the right track. Anyone who dogmatically stands by the "wonderful findings of science" is probably not very scientific at all, since the scientific method is there to allow checks and balances and editing of others' works.

A few things we think we know are gravity, matter, inertia, thermodynamics, cellular structure, etc. The fact that the cell model has changed two or three times in very recent history shows that those dogmatics back in the 60s were WRONG.

Whether a man existed or not, the reality is we conspire about King Arthur and Atlantis, we imagine unicorns in the ancient times, and we've thought up the Chupacabra. All of a sudden simply stating Jesus Christ was real is paled in comparison to these jokers.

By the by, for the record, just so my above statements aren't twisted around on me, I have studied post secondary, major level/pre med biology and chemistry.


BDazzler profile image

BDazzler 7 years ago from Gulf Coast, USA Author

Thanks Tim, good thoughts.  I'm not as anti-Carbon dating as you (I just admit I don't know) , but when the head of the lab that did the carbon 14 test on the shroud says they made a mistake, well, you can be pretty sure they probably made a mistake.

The Shroud has been the hardest thing I've found to find reliable "arguments against".   This artifact is unique and therefore cool in its own right.  My personal feeling is that since the Shroud is unique and Jesus made so many unique claims ... it's not a big stretch to link them.  One of these days, I'm thiking about doing a hub on the biblical evidence that the shroud is valid, with a focus on the OT.  But .. time ... :)


t.keeley profile image

t.keeley 7 years ago from Seattle, WA

Carbon dating is in my opinion the most hilarious thing scientists do. I just get a chuckle everytime I hear someone try and prove it works. They try and fail miserably. It's just the way of scientific progress. Applying science is great, worshipping science however simply proves that people are dumb and follow the trends just like the Christians, Jews, and Muslims they mock for being religious.


BDazzler profile image

BDazzler 7 years ago from Gulf Coast, USA Author

Oh yeah, people defend their non-religion every bit as violently and irrationally as people defend their religion.

What I found facinating was that from 1988 until 2003 or 4 or so, people were ready to just blow off the whole thing because of carbon dating. Man, even if was faked in the 14th century, what a fake! If we could uncover the secrets that some medival technolgist used to create a holographic encoding of an image using that old stuff, imagine what we could do today!

But "The Carbon 14 God" spaketh and his worshipers bowed. *sigh*


t.keeley profile image

t.keeley 7 years ago from Seattle, WA

LOL...true dat man. I can't wait to find out what alchemist decided to screw up a cloth and inscibe the face of Jesus on there. If it is fake, scientists will be ecstatic to figure it out... :)


allshookup profile image

allshookup 7 years ago from The South, United States

I have to say I'm with Eddie on this. Science does nothing to impress me and they certainly carry no weight when trying to disprove Godand creation. All I need is the Bible and I'm good. Thanks for the hub.


BDazzler profile image

BDazzler 7 years ago from Gulf Coast, USA Author

TK, Probably the most profound argument I heard from a scientist who studied it was actually pretty non-scientific ... he was convinced that the evidence showed concuslivly that the shroud had contained the body of a man who had died a horribly violent death ... and he said, "But the face was so peaceful ... and that struck me."


BDazzler profile image

BDazzler 7 years ago from Gulf Coast, USA Author

Hi ASU!

Yeah, I undertand. In 1988 when the shroud was pronounced a "definitive fake" it didn't cause even a little bump in people of faith.

That's one of the reasons I'm thinking about doing a biblical study on it. What I see in the Old Testement actually argues more for its authenticity than even the way it matches gospel acounts.

It's not "proof" ... but it is interesting.


allshookup profile image

allshookup 7 years ago from The South, United States

Yes. From what I see about people studying so hard trying to find 'proof' of things, it makes me feel they have no faith. Which to me is sad. I don't feel we are meant to know everything or else God woulda put it in the Bible for us to know. So, I guess that's why I just take It at It's word and don't worry about what humans do or say. Because they are only human. They make mistakes. It is interesting to see the pics you have on this hub. I think in the world of science and evolution and atheism etc there are many 'definitive fakes.' So many things have happened in my life that can only be explained by God. My doctors cannot tell you why I am alive. I shouldn't be. There's only one answer for that. Now, when doctors who are specialists and have been studying medicine and science for many years can't explain something, what does that mean? We know don't we? Therefore, you see why I live by faith.


BDazzler profile image

BDazzler 7 years ago from Gulf Coast, USA Author

Thanks ASU! I really do understand that! (see my hub: http://hubpages.com/hub/You-Will-Do-Greater-Things...

I find the expolration of creation to be part of the joy of God's creation. (Proverbs 25:2+Revelation 5:10 for example, and of course Psalm 19, and Romans 1:20 etc. etc. etc. I love it all!


t.keeley profile image

t.keeley 7 years ago from Seattle, WA

BD, I believe that nothing will ever truly prove or disprove any God exists until one of them returns. Til then we have our faith, and with it our religion. Unless YHWH Himself were to dwell amongst us PHYSICALLY (and eve then I'm sure we'd see rebels) I doubt there'd be much hope for proof. We're the age of science, we worship its gods and hold it on a pedestal. Science will die one day, like every other god that has fallen before it. I just figure I won't be seeing anyone adhering to it now crying for penance because they were led astray by the atom.


BDazzler profile image

BDazzler 7 years ago from Gulf Coast, USA Author

I know ... I'm kind of taking a 1 Corinthians 9:20-23 approach to hubpages.

" Unless YHWH Himself were to dwell amongst us PHYSICALLY (and eve then I'm sure we'd see rebels) ..."

Isn't that kind of the theme of Rev 20? (Setting aside the symbolism and all)


t.keeley profile image

t.keeley 7 years ago from Seattle, WA

The fact that God has a literal spiritual kingdom now? Possibly, but I don't think there's a whole lot of personal revelation happening. When God reveals Himself, He generally does so to the larger portion of His children mind you, not to these nut jobs who want your credit card #.

I believe in a literal millennial kingdom now, when all will hear of the gospel before His ultimate return to judge the nations. That's when His true revelation will happen.


BDazzler profile image

BDazzler 7 years ago from Gulf Coast, USA Author

I don't think the two are in conflict. I believe in the principle of progressive revelation.


t.keeley profile image

t.keeley 7 years ago from Seattle, WA

I guess I can't disagree, in other words both views could be expressed in revelation [book]. I personally feel we've over simplified the end-times prohetical books into fun stories. The reality is that there are periods expressed in both Daniel and Rev. that would fit every generation. In that sense, progressive revelation is absolutely true within bounds of the Bible. :)


BDazzler profile image

BDazzler 7 years ago from Gulf Coast, USA Author

Well, yes, but if we don't over-simplify, we can't get the credit card, now can we ? lol


t.keeley profile image

t.keeley 7 years ago from Seattle, WA

Heh...marketing God 101. I think a lot of bible coleges do that, personally. I've rarely seen a person exit a Bible college after 4 years and actually really know the Bible. They more or less learn how to "preach" personal opinions from a block of wood. No offense to any Bible grads, but I judge on a one-on-one personal basis and by that route I've sifted thru many a man who I don't think was truly called to discern the word of God.

Obviously I'm way off topic here...


BDazzler profile image

BDazzler 7 years ago from Gulf Coast, USA Author

:) Well ... not if the topic is evidence for faith. I think you've got the right idea. One by one, not by doctrine or ideas, or denomination, Jesus said, "By their fruits you will know them..."

I look for fruit more than doctrine. If you got right doctrine but stinky fruit you're a pounding symbol or something (1 Cor 13 - BDaz version)


BDazzler profile image

BDazzler 7 years ago from Gulf Coast, USA Author

LG if you'd like to repost the first part of your comment without the way off topic second half, I'll approve it.  Heck, I'll even let you put a link to the way off topic second half if you'd like, but thats a lot to read that has little or nothing to do with this hub.


Lady Guinevere profile image

Lady Guinevere 7 years ago from West Virginia

Sorry,

What I said was that I thought that they wrapped bodies like mummies then and not from head to toe. It just doesn't make sense that they would wrap him from head to toe like that and not the normal way.

The link that I got the other information was:

http://www.members.optusnet.com.au/~acceptance/You...


BDazzler profile image

BDazzler 7 years ago from Gulf Coast, USA Author

I'd start the burial custom search here:

http://www.shroud2000.com/ArticlesPapers/Article-J...

You can see current customs here:

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/judaism/FAQ/05-Worship/se...

And also historical customs here:

http://www.kinkaraco.com/history.html

None of them appear to be "mummy like" as far as I can tell. Also google "first century" jewish burial customs and you should get a good look at the customs of the time.


Lady Guinevere profile image

Lady Guinevere 7 years ago from West Virginia

Thanks!


Lady Guinevere profile image

Lady Guinevere 7 years ago from West Virginia

Before I look up the sites that you have, Iwas watching a progrm on DVD: http://www.bloodline-themovie.com/

If it is true--I have some doubts that it is---the body they found in the cave was just covered with a blanket.  They think the body is Mary Magdelene.  That is VERY speculative.


BDazzler profile image

BDazzler 7 years ago from Gulf Coast, USA Author

I'm not sure how they'd could really support that conclusion. As you say, very specultive.


Lady Guinevere profile image

Lady Guinevere 7 years ago from West Virginia

I read the three sites above and they were interesting indeed. Clothe usually takes alot less then 2000 years breakdown. If you put a clothe as light as they supposedly had it would not even take 5 years befor it is fibers. That is if it were in the elements. When the tomb was opened that would allow the elements to come in and saturate it and the breakdown would begin promptly.


BDazzler profile image

BDazzler 7 years ago from Gulf Coast, USA Author

That doesn't make a lot of sense, considering how hold mummy cloth is, and it's still "good".

This is linen, not cotton, much longer fibers. It's documented history is over 600 years, and there's very little breakdown even from even that.


Lady Guinevere profile image

Lady Guinevere 7 years ago from West Virginia

I understand the mummies and their cloth, but they were in solutions or saltwater, mud nad the like and that is how the fiers and cloth were preserved. Over 600 years is a long time but not as long as 2000 years that Jesus's shroud was in open air----or was it? There is so much specualtion with all this and no one can seem to pinpoint a date of this shroud. The last report that I heard about on the History International Channel was about 1200 AD.


BDazzler profile image

BDazzler 7 years ago from Gulf Coast, USA Author

No, it probalby wasn't in open air. It was probaby gauarded by constantine, then the knights templar who took great care to preserve it. Check out the most likely timelines in some of the links above.


BDazzler profile image

BDazzler 7 years ago from Gulf Coast, USA Author

Here's a good summary:

http://www.allaboutarchaeology.org/history-of-the-...

Anything prior to 1357 is speculation, but speculation based on known events and history.


RGraf profile image

RGraf 7 years ago from Wisconsin

I love to read up on the archeological aspects of Christianity, but if they were never proven it would not change anything that I believe. In fact, a part of me wishes that they didn't find these things because we begin to place so much value on objects instead of the message.

You did a great job with this piece.


allshookup profile image

allshookup 7 years ago from The South, United States

I think you have a great point RGraf. If we knew everything, then why would we need faith? I think I'd rather just have faith in God than faith in material things men find on this earth and try to explain.


BDazzler profile image

BDazzler 7 years ago from Gulf Coast, USA Author

Actuall RGraf, it is kind of funny.  I've actually had more vehment resistance from Christians who didnt' want it to be true because they felt it would undermine faith.

I consider it similar to ASU's testimony.  She really was sick. Doctors really thought she should die. She didn't.   It's documented testimony. I'm sure you can find records she was sick, attempted treatements etc.  It is undeniable that something extraordiary happened.

When my friend Lee (I've linked to his testimony on other hubs) was healed from Parkinson's it created a big stir. There was even an investigation by a major Christian organization to validate it.   Again, the reality of it is just so cool.

I love how Jesus reveled his heart us by showing Himself to Thomas.

John 20: 27 Then He said to Thomas, "Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing." 28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" 29 Jesus said to him, "Thomas,  because you have seen Me, you have believed.

I love Jesus' heart! If we have a little faith or a lot, he comes to us!  Even when we are not so blessed as to be able to believe without proof!  This is why Jesus is my hero!


Lady Guinevere profile image

Lady Guinevere 7 years ago from West Virginia

I don't, not in my opinion anyway, that finding these things will replace our faith. Jesus said he was in our hearts and minds and he also said thata the wriiten word is nothing. He is there no matter what because that is where he put himself.


RGraf profile image

RGraf 7 years ago from Wisconsin

I don't think that they replace our faith so much as they focus our faith differently. My husband's grandmother would start revering items such as the shroud and speak of it as though it was as holy as God Himself. That is the only time it bothers me. We are told not to have idols or such. Anything can be made into an idol if we are careful. As I said before I love to read of the discoveries and such. It is fun to watch as it is all proven. I personally don't need the proof, but to some out there it is important and for them I'm glad we do it. Eventually, the faith part takes over.


BDazzler profile image

BDazzler 7 years ago from Gulf Coast, USA Author

I'm with you there RGraf! 

A wise man once said, "A sign is important, but it's not nearly as important as what it points to!"


allshookup profile image

allshookup 7 years ago from The South, United States

I agree also RGraf. Well said.


t.keeley profile image

t.keeley 7 years ago from Seattle, WA

BD, I feel doctrine is highly important. Faith without it is useless actually. There's got to be self-contained logic within the book of faith, whether it's the Bible or Quran or Torah...you know what I'm getting at? It looks bad if denominations exist. That's why I spend so much time pushing the envelope for people to learn the Bible, you know?


BDazzler profile image

BDazzler 7 years ago from Gulf Coast, USA Author

Doctrine is fine, as long as it is a logical framework and not a doctrine to be defended at all costs, and subject to the authority of scripture. Much of Doctrine is determined by how scripture is interpreted.

A lot of bad doctrine is created and defended when people make stuff up rather than admit they don't know.

My doctrine starts: Line up on line precept up on precept.

The second is "All law and prophets" derive from the first two love commandments.

I take every statement back to those two princples ... does it derive from love and is it consistent with what I already know. If it's not, do I have to re-think what I already know, or is the statement wrong?

Well, most of the time, I assume the statement is wrong. If I stick to that all the time, it becomes dogma and suddenly one bad doctrine leads to another.

For example your "salvation need not be an event in time" statement is contrary to established doctrine of people who believe that I go to church with. But it is not contrary to scripture as you interpret it, and based on what I have seen from your fruit, I know that at the very least your interpretation is worth considering.


t.keeley profile image

t.keeley 7 years ago from Seattle, WA

Thanks BD. I was more or less trying to say that your doctrine IS what you believe as a whole, so it is important. The problem I have is people who don't know, much like Bill Maher said in his movie "Religulous"...when people don't know what it is they believe, they look like morons. Anyone who doesn't know what they believe ends up being shredded apart in debate and their views look foolish at best. I think everyone, whether atheist or jew or christian, needs to have their views properly aligned.

Now for the doctrine the people disagree with, they're far from alone. In fact, American Christianity has developed its own breed of salavtion, the one we continually see fed from the pulpit and (like you said) eventually became unverifiable doctrine that was more dogma than truth. The doctrine of succession is taught throughout the entire OT and into the NT in Acts in some places...the logical conclusion makes sense within the bounds of Covenantal God-Man relationships. It's widely held in most Reformed circles (lutheran, presbyterian, RCA, etc.).


BDazzler profile image

BDazzler 7 years ago from Gulf Coast, USA Author

Yeah, my rather broad doctrine on salvation is this, Jesus paid the price and Jesus will judge. If you're not sure, talk to Jesus. If you are sure, talk to Jesus. I am sure of my salvation. I cannot be sure of anyone elses regardless of "right" doctrine. (Thus, my comment on looking for fruit.)

Since God is not willing that any should perish,, yet some will and He judges the secrets of the heart, and Jesus did pay the price ... I know He'll get it right. Even if I don't understand it all 100%.


Lady Guinevere profile image

Lady Guinevere 7 years ago from West Virginia

BD, I agree with you there!


DonKeesee profile image

DonKeesee 7 years ago from Oklahoma City

I think if we are talking about objective historical proof of a person existing, then there would be much more of that via historical research methodology than for many persons who are quite famous in history whose existence has never been questioned. However, just knowing Jesus existed is not the main issue with regard to him, though it is a first step. The core issue is this: What does his existence mean to me? And his own words are very helpful here: The person who worships God must worship in spirit and in truth. There is another realm that every person born into the earth has built-in access to. Our denial of that realm not does obliterate it, though it might make it difficult for us to make use of our built-in access, since we navigate the spiritual world by faith.


BDazzler profile image

BDazzler 7 years ago from Gulf Coast, USA Author

Well said Don.


t.keeley profile image

t.keeley 7 years ago from Seattle, WA

ditto with Don's statement above


allshookup profile image

allshookup 7 years ago from The South, United States

Don, you said it well!


b4u2c profile image

b4u2c 7 years ago from The Kingdom of God's Dear Son

Agreed, well said Don!

Here's a law school link which offers "evidence" as to both the physical and spiritual significance of Christ's life:

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/j...


Lady Guinevere profile image

Lady Guinevere 7 years ago from West Virginia

Wouldn't he have a birth certificate or even a death certificate. The jews are well documanted in legal documents and also wouldn't the census tell of such a person? That was the reason they had to go back to their place they were from was because of the census.


BDazzler profile image

BDazzler 7 years ago from Gulf Coast, USA Author

Yeah, maybe, except for that little problem in 70AD when the Romans pretty much destroyed all their records and everything else. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jerusalem_(7...


Lady Guinevere profile image

Lady Guinevere 7 years ago from West Virginia

There is more information on this here: http://www.enotes.com/peoples-chronology/year-1st-...

This is a chronology site and has lots of things on it from way before BC to current events. It has political, science, agriculture, religious and many more things in a historical timeline.


pylos26 profile image

pylos26 7 years ago from America

gosh...i just love this jusus stuff...and especially the "italian lawyer" now there is honesty and reliability for ya. a terrific job on this hub dazzler, think i'll stick with the carbon dating though...pylos


BDazzler profile image

BDazzler 7 years ago from Gulf Coast, USA Author

Thanks pylos! (I think) :-)


Parse profile image

Parse 7 years ago from Maryland

Well all we have to do is wait another 80,000 years and we'll K-Ar date it!


BDazzler profile image

BDazzler 7 years ago from Gulf Coast, USA Author

lol- Thanks Parse!


Chef Jeff profile image

Chef Jeff 7 years ago from Universe, Milky Way, Outer Arm, Sol, Earth, Western Hemisphere, North America, Illinois, Chicago.

Great hub, but some few uninformed comments about science, I am afraid. Carbon dating from say 50 years ago was improved and is now very accurate. Earlier carbon datings were contaminated and not always accurate, thus the revamping of the test procedures. We didn't know about many things 50 years ago that we now have learned about, so science is always improving and becoming more accurate.

To me the shroud is an image of Jesus, and I expect the scientific evidence to prove that one day, but even if it doesn't it does nothing to diminish my faith.

I use my Bible to learn more about God, but not about science. I don't use my science books to learn about God. I believe in science, including evolution, because I see the Hand of God in evolution, and I disagree strongly that the so-called Creationism as presented today has any scientific proof to back it up. Sorry, it's just not there.

That doesn't mean that God didn't create everything as we know it. I believe He did, but that he did so through a process called evolution. God works in mysterious, and sometimes obvious ways.

In short I don't need science to back up my faith and I don't use my faith as an excuse to look no further. That's just me - not a put-down of people who sincerely believe and who don't need to look further. God bless all of us (including those with whom I may not agree in whole or in part) who have enough faith from within. We are God's annointed and are given the tools - our minds - to learn, to know and to have faith.

And last of all, the battle is not between science and religion, as some have alluded to - it's between God and Satan. God created science by allowing our minds to look at the world and see it as bits and pieces of information. Science is not a tool of Satan.

Cheers!

Chef Jeff T.


BDazzler profile image

BDazzler 7 years ago from Gulf Coast, USA Author

Wow, good stuff Chef! Thanks.

I'm not sure about carbon dating in general, but some of the scientists who did the tests on the shroud said they made mistakes.

That reopened the issue.

Again, thanks!


Chef Jeff profile image

Chef Jeff 7 years ago from Universe, Milky Way, Outer Arm, Sol, Earth, Western Hemisphere, North America, Illinois, Chicago.

Thanks - the errors were contamination, from what I have read about the shroud tests. New dates place it pretty much about 2,000 years ago. I think you did an excellent job reseraching and writing about this subject which has also fascinated me for several decades.

As i said, I truly believe it is Jesus' image. The only other "plausible" explanation was that a body had been set over pitchblend, a raw form of radiation, and thus we have the x-ray image on the shroud, but I don't believe even pitch blend has the ability to make such a powerful, clear image. I would like to see a test done to either prove or disprove that theory.

As I said, great hub!

Cheers!

Chef Jeff T.


t.keeley profile image

t.keeley 7 years ago from Seattle, WA

I'm with Jeff here, I'm another person who believes in evolution. Frankly God could easily have included...actually, he did if you have ever read science books....evolution in his scheme. the problem comes when you take evolution OUT of His scheme, things just don't work. Darwin was arguably the most discredited man in recent history, his book is phenomenal when it comes to science and people should actually READ it instead of throw out ignorant accusations.

BD, maybe I can get you to come over to the 'dark side' in this realm some day, hm?;)


BDazzler profile image

BDazzler 7 years ago from Gulf Coast, USA Author

HA! I have a theory that will make everybody mad at me. I think everybody is wrong. I will say this. The Creation Event, by defintion is a boundary condition. What happened during that boundary condition and how long that boundary condition actually lasted is impossible to say because nobody was there to meaure it and define it.

Also, we are starting to see evidence that perhaps time is not as linear as most people assume. We know that God operates outside of time. So, how much was done in linear time and how much in non-linear time? Who can know?

I think for things like evolution and geology and the rest of it, there are assuptions being made that we can be sure are false. Constants probably aren't. Variables probably don't.

My background is more engineering. Pure science makes a nice starting place but there are a bout a bazillion other factors that pure science doesn't always account for to make a machine work, so pure science has to be adjustd. Little things like friction. Magnetic forces we didn't know were there. Gravity that varies. They put constants and coefficnets in because they are measured, but how long have those constants really been constant? Who can know?

So, I think everybody's wrong. And I can't get spare parts for my time machine in this century, so I can't go back and measure them for you. ;)


Thinkaboutit77 profile image

Thinkaboutit77 7 years ago

Sandra (in part) said, "Everything surrounding Jesus is a mystery. Some of which I wish were absolutely true others well...um...ahh...

 For myself, I guess it doesn't matter to me whether Jesus was a real man who was raised from the dead ....or a God in the Flesh.

"I always found the message to be more important than thumbing or dumbing away at things that will always be privy to some doubt, ...without it faith wouldn't mean anything!"

That is what Sandra said, but in reality if what the Bible says about Jesus is not true, then like Paul said in the New Testament, a Christian's faith is worthless. If something isn't true, then that person's faith in it is worthless and pointless. So it certainly DOES matter whether Jesus is who He claimed to be or not.

Also if people don't believe Jesus is real, then they can't believe that Alexander the Great or Hormer are real since we have more manuscript and documented evidence that Jesus is who He said He is (in the Bible) then we do for any other prominent figure in history.

Think about it.


BDazzler profile image

BDazzler 7 years ago from Gulf Coast, USA Author

ThkAbt - This topic came up in a "recommended requests for you" when I was trying to decide what to write.

The truth is many people put "faith" in science. Though they woudn't call it that.

I'm still thinking about writing a hub that examines the shroud from a stricktly biblical perspective, without any science involved.

Much of what we have as science today, the work of Newton, Pascal, Keppler is the result of their belief that all creation declares the Glory of the Lord and the set about to explore creation.

The purpose of removing the log from my own eye before removing a speck of sawdust from someone else's is to save the eye, not to colllect sawdust.

May the Lord forbid that I ever become proud of my sawdust collection.


BDazzler profile image

BDazzler 7 years ago from Gulf Coast, USA Author

For the record: I will disapprove any comments that disrespect Jesus or disrespect the other commenters directly.

Respectful disagreement is allowed and encouraged. Disrespect will be disapproved.


b4u2c profile image

b4u2c 7 years ago from The Kingdom of God's Dear Son

Perhaps the answer comes in 1 Corinthians 1 verse 27, "By His doing you are in Christ Jesus." By who's doing? By God's doing. That's right. The only thing that ever makes it possible for someone to embrace truth is God's work in that heart. Wisdom from God, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption all come from God because God has chosen to give it to us, so that just as it is written, verse 31, "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord." Nobody can get there through the natural process of human reason. Nevertheless, this is a very fun hub. Thank you BDaz for posting it and thank you Eddie for the humbling reminder about the childlike simplicty of it all.


Onusonus profile image

Onusonus 7 years ago from washington

For historical data, there is a book in existance called "Antiquities of the Jews" by Flavus Josephus, who lived from the year 37 AD. to 100 AD. He gives a brief historical mention of Jesus's existance along with John the baptist and a few other apostles. He does not however, consend to the Christian based ideology of his divine nature.


pylos26 profile image

pylos26 7 years ago from America

sorry dazzler...i noticed that you deleted my opposing post...i mean, why bother, just order yourself a rubber stamp of approval, that is if your hub is so fragile and will not stand to criticism.


BDazzler profile image

BDazzler 7 years ago from Gulf Coast, USA Author

Pylos - It was not the opposition, it was the tone. Opposition is tolerated. Disrespect is not. I'm pretty loose with my criteria. Notice your itallian lawyer insult still stands.

If you wish to make a relevant, opposing response, feel free. If your opposition does not appear, you'll know it's because of your tone. Feel free to adjust your tone to make your point.


pylos26 profile image

pylos26 7 years ago from America

first it was "respect" or lack of, now it has been reduced to "tone" and "adjustment" ...i suppose if i had agreed with your shroud fable and praised you for great depth and perception that i would have been awarded your "tone" of approval...what a "narrow minded" ding bat!...incidentially, i added those last words to see if they would stand for your personal sensitive "toleration"...you're pretty "loose" alright...just not sure the tolerance is in criteria...regards


BDazzler profile image

BDazzler 7 years ago from Gulf Coast, USA Author

Since this is my hub, the criteria is at my absolute discretion, I choose the criteria based on whatever I choose, your offense or lack there of, is not truly my concern ... unless, of course, I want it to be! My advice is that you keep trying and enjoy becoming irritated with me!


pylos26 profile image

pylos26 7 years ago from America

wow...a dictator and absolute ruler...and operating in a democracy...it seems that the small difference between one of your philosopy and one that straps a bomb on and blows him/herself and others up is basically two simply facts...the suicide bomber's faith/belief is gunuine enough to give his/her life for...and he/she operates with impunity...whereas, one of your philosophy seems to be in no hurry to get to your reward and if you commit murder in America your butt goes to jail...and, as far as irritating me...i actually haven't noticed that...i just love to chat...and you have managed to capture my attention, somewhat...(now, will this reply get deleted by a dictator?) only you know the answer...cheers...pylos


BDazzler profile image

BDazzler 7 years ago from Gulf Coast, USA Author

<snicker> ;)


compu-smart profile image

compu-smart 7 years ago from London UK

Very interesting BDazzler!,

I doubt what ever scientific proof they find and no matter how conclusive, there will still always be doubters and conspiracy theorists who will not believe!! I have no idea and am always and will forever be open minded until when cast iron facts and proof is found..

You also make good points at the end regarding faith!

good work!

:)


BDazzler profile image

BDazzler 7 years ago from Gulf Coast, USA Author

Thanks CS!


RootDoc profile image

RootDoc 7 years ago

A very thorough look at something that is very interesting to many people. We need people like you writing on these kinds of topics. While other believers will focus on other areas, this one needs attention as well. Keep up the good work. Steve


BDazzler profile image

BDazzler 7 years ago from Gulf Coast, USA Author

Thanks Steve!


Sufidreamer profile image

Sufidreamer 7 years ago from Sparti, Greece

Nice Hub, BDazzler. I love all of the historical detective work that goes into biblical archaeology. Science, history and theology working together - great stuff.


BDazzler profile image

BDazzler 7 years ago from Gulf Coast, USA Author

Thanks Sufi! I still plan to write a hub with a more spiritual angle on this topic (sometime!)


Sufidreamer profile image

Sufidreamer 7 years ago from Sparti, Greece

I look forward to it - that angle is probably the least familiar of the three to me, so it will be very educational!


mdawson17 7 years ago

Good job! I have to say you have given me much more insight on the hardened evidence of Jesus Christ and his existence!


drpastorcarlotta profile image

drpastorcarlotta 7 years ago from BREAKOUT MINISTRIES, INC. KC

Amen and Amen!!!!! I agree with Eddie Perkins; I don’t trust science either. Those who claim scientific proof of the age of the earth and other such questions have changed their minds too many times to suit me.All I need to know is that the Bible says Jesus existed from eternity past to eternity future. He was their waiting for me when I came on the scene and He will be there to meet me when I leave this scene and arrive at the place He has prepared for me. GLORY!!!! GLORY!!!!


BL Tween profile image

BL Tween 6 years ago

Wow Thanks! I gotta tell some folks about this hub!


BDazzler profile image

BDazzler 6 years ago from Gulf Coast, USA Author

Glad you liked it BL!


jayjay40 profile image

jayjay40 6 years ago from Bristol England

The best hub that I have read. Great research and brilliant writing. well done


BDazzler profile image

BDazzler 6 years ago from Gulf Coast, USA Author

Thank you JayJay! I'm thinking about a follow up for this Easter.


Dave Mathews profile image

Dave Mathews 6 years ago from NORTH YORK,ONTARIO,CANADA

BDazzler, Very well put together. The Shroud would have been my first piece of proof of Jesus existance too.

Brother Dave.


BDazzler profile image

BDazzler 6 years ago from Gulf Coast, USA Author

Thanks Brother Dave!


Joni Douglas profile image

Joni Douglas 6 years ago

Excellent hub. Just watched a program about thee 3-D imaging on the History channel yesterday. All I can say is Wow. I, like you, have always been fascinated with the Shroud.


BDazzler profile image

BDazzler 6 years ago from Gulf Coast, USA Author

Again, I thank you. I finished my second hub on the topic after that 3-D program. I have been privileged to see several miracles first hand. Still it always amazes me.


stephane86 6 years ago

BDazzler, your article on the Shroud of Turin is fascinating. I too, am a partisan of the authenticity of the Shroud. I think that the Carbon 14 dating is certainly faulty and limited in its scope. If it could be proven that the Shroud originates from the 1st century, what a stir it would create in the world of science and in the eyes of the general public.

Thank you for your contribution to the increase of our knowledge.


BDazzler profile image

BDazzler 6 years ago from Gulf Coast, USA Author

Thank you Stephane!


motricio profile image

motricio 6 years ago from Bogota DC, Colombia

Now there is whole Team of people trying to probe that God is an Alien, What do you think about that?


BDazzler profile image

BDazzler 6 years ago from Gulf Coast, USA Author

That's been going on since at least 1973. It generally raises more questions than answers.


Baileybear 5 years ago

http://www.skepdic.com/shroud.html

well written hub. I'm still a skeptic. As for comments about science, science is open to mistakes being made (after all humans make mistakes), and science has made a huge difference to the way people life today. How many people that believe God heals still go to the doctor or have surgery?


BDazzler profile image

BDazzler 5 years ago from Gulf Coast, USA Author

Thank you BB ... I believe God heals however he wants to. I've seen miraculous healing without doctors. I've seen miraculous healing with doctors. I've seen natural hearings. And a lot of people have gone unhealed.

When we say we know for sure, that's about the only time I'm sure we're wrong :D ...

P.S. Thanks for the link. I think all view points should be presented.

I believe the "relic trade" argument is the best argument *against* the shroud's authenticity.


Baileybear 5 years ago

BD - totally agree with your statement about when we say we know for sure. I've become atheist, but there's still a bit of agnostic in me, because I can't say for sure the supernatural doesn't exist. At least some of us are honest enough to admit we don't know all the answers


BDazzler profile image

BDazzler 5 years ago from Gulf Coast, USA Author

BB ... glad you're still looking at possibilities. I like finding things I don't know about, it makes life fun. :)


Man from Modesto profile image

Man from Modesto 4 years ago from Kiev, Ukraine (formerly Modesto, California)

More than scientific evidence, we have the fact that our prayers are answered. And not just small stuff, either. God has delivered to me a way to pay my Ivy League tuition (a man gave me a STORE the next day after my prayer), my neighbor rose from the dead after the Holy Spirit told me to pray, the Holy Spirit showed me where Al Qaida was recruiting terrorists, and we prevented them from capturing "an American or British" person and cutting of his head.

The reason non-Christians don't believe is because MOST Christians will not "humble themselves and pray" and among those who do, they are followers of man, and not of God. If they followed God, they would do as Jesus commanded: Go out into the world, preach the gospel, heal the sick and cast out devils.

Jesus said, in effect, tell them and SHOW them. Listen, my brother, my sister: God gave you power over every sickness and over evil spirits. Show the world that our Father in Heaven is real.


Ms Dee profile image

Ms Dee 4 years ago from Texas, USA

You have a lot of good photos here. I like your conclusions about faith. It is hard for me *not* to believe the Shroud is authentic. The radiation theory makes so much sense. As you say, though, it still takes faith to accept the theory.


James A Watkins profile image

James A Watkins 3 years ago from Chicago

I truly enjoyed reading this great old Hub this morning. It is fascinating and wonderfully made. Thank you for the journey. Well done!

James :)


BDazzler profile image

BDazzler 3 years ago from Gulf Coast, USA Author

Hi James - thanks for stopping by! And thanks for the kind words.

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