Predestination Vs Free Will

Predestination Vs Free Will: Opening Thoughts

 

Predestination Vs Free Will is one of the oldest and most intriguing philosophical arguments in human history. Many philosophers also consider it among the most important questions. Does predestination, also known as determinism, rule our every decision or our very cosmic fate even before we are born? Is the universe determined and mechanical, or not? Or does free will make more sense than predestination? Do we have the ability to make individual choices? Is there nothing actually set in stone? Is this a question that demands quantum physics, or a distinctive line between omnipotence and omniscience? These bring up incredible questions of the role of destiny, whether all life is destiny or can there be bits of destiny among a life filled with otherwise free will based decisions? Are the Calvinists right about predestination, or are the adamant free will believers correct? Is there any way to really truly know?

There's not a chance of me offering a stunning breakthrough to these questions that are as old as philosophy itself, but maybe this will be a great starting point to get some great open thought going about both sides of this eternal struggle between free will and determinism.

Thoughts on Predestination

 

By predestination, we go by the definition that an individual does not make their own decisions, big or small, but that every decision is already decided upon whether by spiritual or cosmic forces. Predestination is not solely a Christian doctrine, but it is most often associated with Calvinism. There are many other denominations and theologians who believe in the doctrine of predestination, or the reformed doctrine of predestination, but it is often associated with Calvinistic schools of thought.

There are many famous theologians who strongly believe in predestination in some form or another, including:

  • St. Augustine of Hippo
  • Pelagian
  • St. Thomas Aquinas
  • John Calvin

There are many others, but these are some of the most major names. Of course the argument on predestination predates Christianity, indicating that man has always struggled with questions about his place in the universe.

This was the Calvinist form of predestination, as it was explained to me (while the person was a theology student, I'm not vouching for complete accuracy of this interpretation, but this seems at least near the mark):

"It's predestination because no person is capable of making the choice to accept God because God is perfect and people are sinful. Therefore, people are naturally going to be repulsed by perfection. The only way for them to choose God is for God to choose them to choose Him. That's why it's predestination, because only those who God chooses to be saved can accept Him and become saved. You can't make that choice if you had free will."

Being the well adjusted and respectful individual you all knew me to be, I proceeded to not accept that explanation and argue for several hours, my point being how could this possibly be more loving that allowing free will?

There are some problems with this theology. The obvious being that if only people pre-chosen by God can be saved, and if there is a Hell, then God has created people knowing that no matter what they do, no matter how much they might want a relationship with God, they can't have it and they're going to burn for all eternity. That's a complete contradiction to the idea of a loving God, though it can work if you throw away the idea of an all loving or all just God.

Personally, this idea repulses me. That may not be fair, but the idea of a Deity like that who creates souls to torment them for eternity (keeping in mind this is based on the ideas of Calvinist theology of the afterlife) makes me want to actively go against everything that Deity stands for rather than embrace it. I also think many of the serious problems with "Christians" who go around with "Holier than Thou" attitudes and who are fanatical about being "right" or better than others is because of this type of theology that makes them feel entitled and justified no matter what. There's never any personal responsibility because in their minds everything was already predetermined.

I think this is radically missing the point. There have also been scientific arguments on the nature of predestination, suggesting that no human action can be independent, but every choice is based on hundreds if not thousands of influences that can be from past situations to upbringing, to an imbalance in the strings of the universe - although many also argue that the inherent "fuzziness" of the Universe on the Quantum level suggests that maybe this is not a completely mechanical universe, which at the very least would make free will possible.

Thoughts on Free Will

 

Free will is the theological idea that all actions by individuals are not controlled or forcefully coerced by a Deity or higher power, but that individuals have the right to choose right or wrong and make every day choices in the direction their path will take (although this doesn't mean that the decisions can't be heavily influenced). The Christian philosophy of free will is often also referred to as Arminianism, based on the thoughts and writings of Jacobus Arminius, a 16th and 17th century Dutch pastor and theologian. This is not a completely correct assumption, as Calvinism and Arminianism have a lot in common, but disagree mainly over predestination and free will.

In Christian thought, free will still acknowledges that salvation comes from the grace of God alone, but they reject the notion that this means that all salvation is predestined. Otherwise, what about "backsliders?" If these guys seemed to become saved, then fell back into old ways, are they saved despite living bad lives? Were they never saved to begin with (which leads to the question of why or why not and did God just use this individual with no intention of ever allowing him salvation)?

Free will is naturally going to be the more popular choice for many people just based on the fact that many individuals hate the idea of being controlled. From the pure philosophical standpoint, many say that free will is the only theology that makes sense with a just or loving God, and that the choice has to be there to accept or reject salvation.

Free will is also used in a more general sense, for individuals who may be asking through psychology or even science like quantum physics or metaphysics, do humans make independent choices? Is it even possible? At what point does an influenced choice become controlled or destined? Is it free will, or predestination, or somehow both, when a person has two choices, but their inherent beliefs, past experiences, and world view will always cause them to choose choice A over choice B?

Free will is easy to jump to in a knee jerk, "I make my own choices," reaction in the same way that predestination is easy to jump to by individuals who are obsessed with being set apart, always right, or don't want to take personal responsibility.

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Personal Thoughts on Free Will Vs. Predestination

My natural instinct is to jump on the Free Will bandwagon. I hate the idea of predestination as it has been described to me in various Bible studies, philosophy classes, or other theological conversations. Yet, that wouldn't be open thinking by me if I just patched together theology based on what I felt like without challenging those beliefs and giving the other side a fair shake.

So what have 200+ theology books (and yes, Richard Dawkins counts because choosing to not have faith is an expression of a belief based system in itself), philosophy books, and other books across every spectrum and ten years of concentrated study taught me? Well these are my beliefs at this point. My guess is at this point the bulk of it is more or less set, as you don't spend a decade of intense study and not form an opinion strongly backed by philosophy, thought, theory, and fact.

But that's the beauty of the free will v predestination argument: there's always more evidence and argument that you can add to both sides. As of right now, here's a somewhat simple description of what I believe in regards to this argument:

I believe both are true in a working functioning paradox, but the extreme of both is not true. I do not believe that every moment of every soul's life is predetermined prior to it happening. This does not mean that there can not be an omniscient deity. There is a huge difference between omniscience (knowing what will happen based on knowing the choices that individuals will make) and predestination (knowing what will happen because all of it is set in stone).

Some argue otherwise, but I respectfully disagree. You might see a relationship and know that it's going to end because you know the guy will get bored and cheat after six months, but seven months later that relationship ended not because you knew it was going to, but because the man made a choice that ruined it.

You knew what was going to happen, but it wasn't set in stone. So if that can be possible on the human level, how could it not be possible on a larger scale involving God?

But I don't believe in the extreme of free will, either. Sometimes there might be destiny, but when I say destiny, I mean a moment or event in which it was meant to happen, but choices must still be made. For example, not to get cliché, but if you believe in the "one true love" thing (before I get any e-mails, no, I don't believe that there is only one true love for every other person, but this is a great example).

Suppose on October 25, 2012 that person will be a bummed out freshman at "C" college taking a walk wishing there was a funny stranger to show up, cheer the person up, and then talk deep philosophy. Maybe you're meant to be that person. Maybe that moment is destiny, so to get there things are "bent." One college administrator just has a gut feeling to offer you more scholarships, another less. Colorado starts calling your name instead of Maine, for some reason an interest in the meaning of life hits you in high school and you learn to think deeply, etc. Maybe there are two hundred small influences that get you to that moment, where based on your beliefs and the other person's, it's love and happy ever after.

Or you take a walk, choke up, and don't say anything and he/she walks on by.

That moment might have been intended (predestined, even), but choices still have to be made. I'm okay with the idea that in my life there might be times, places, certain conversations I'm supposed to have that change what would otherwise be, but then I'm otherwise allowed to make my choices of my own free will the rest of the time. I'm not even convinced that these "predestined" moments are set in stone.

I might hide behind the fuzziness of "paradox" until further notice on that one :D

I find too many "coincidences" to ever fully believe in completely uninfluenced and total free will, but by the same token to believe in any type of deity that isn't evil, cruel, petty, or vindictive then some type of free will has to exist. And if you're atheist, then I would assume based on the metaphysics of the universe that free will is the more obviously defensible choices of a universe that is not 100% clear and mechanical.

So that's where I stand on the free will/predestination argument. In a working paradox both exist to some extent, though day to day I believe it is overwhelmingly free will, however heavily influenced.

Your Free Will v Predestination Thoughts

So which are you inclined to believe: Predestination or Free Will?

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The Predestination Argument

The Myth of Free Will, Revised & Expanded Edition
The Myth of Free Will, Revised & Expanded Edition

Is free will a myth? This author certainly argues that the free will argument has no legs to stand on.

 
Predestination: The Meaning of Predestination in Scripture and the Church
Predestination: The Meaning of Predestination in Scripture and the Church

Want to know about Predestination? This book is a great place to start learning about the predestination argument.

 
The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination
The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination

The arguments of predestination have been shifted and refined through the years, and here is the doctrine of reformed predestination that many "reformed" Christian churches follow.

 
The Bondage of the Will
The Bondage of the Will

"The Bondage of the Will" is an intriguing philosophical weigh in on this question.

 
The Great Debate: Predestination vs. Free Will
The Great Debate: Predestination vs. Free Will

The title doesn't lie: "Predestination vs. Free Will" is really one of the most intense philosophical arguments of our or any times.

 
What Are Election and Predestination? (Basics of the Faith) (Basics of the Reformed Faith)
What Are Election and Predestination? (Basics of the Faith) (Basics of the Reformed Faith)

Election & Predestination: A great book to add into this classic philosophical argument!

 
Grace, Faith, Free Will
Grace, Faith, Free Will

Predestination with Calvanism and against Free Will. A good compare & contrast philosophy book.

 
Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God
Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God

Eternal Predestination: that's what this argument is all about, isn't it?

 

More by this Author


Predestination v Freewill Comments or Thoughts? 43 comments

t.keeley profile image

t.keeley 8 years ago from Seattle, WA

The common error in this argument is to say that Calvinists believe you have no will. Your will is only as free as the soul by which your bound. That sounds humanistic, perhaps it is, but understand that the Bible mentions "dead to sins." I have yet to see someone raise themselves from a dead state. Couple that with Christ Himself advocating a predestinarian stance and we are up against a wall of logic and faith intwined in one. In the sense you're speaking, they both exist. The only thing Calvinists say you cannot choose is Christ. The whole "no one comes to the father but through me." Another paraphrase runs similar to "no one comes to me unless the Father wills it."

More verses in the Bible for predestination, combined with the historical view of the church dating back before even St. Augustine also back this stance up. If you are advocating Free Will, you're not necessarily heretical, but the battle isn't even with the facts as much as it is with the individual. I believe majority if not all men who become Christians begin as Free Will Christians. It defies your pride to begin otherwise. We all want aprt in our fate, it hurts us to find out we didn't choose our salvation but that it was sovereignly provided to us.

No matter what I say, I guarantee I offended people with this somewhat mundane comment.


Jerry G2 profile image

Jerry G2 8 years ago from Cedar Rapids, IA Author

Hi Keely,

Thanks for the comment! This is definitely a touchy subject, as I found out early on during my Christian walk that even saying "I don't think free will vs. predestination is really that important in my daily walk," was sometimes enough to be condemned to Hell forever by a "true believer." That said, I always thought it was an interesting debate and one that should be given deep thought to.

I can see how the common misinterpretation of Calvinism could take place, and the person who tried preaching it to me came across overwhelmingly that absolutely everything was predestined and that no one who believed in free will could possibly be saved or understand any scripture. Obviously this point of view left a bad taste in my mouth.

There is a lot of reference to predestination in scripture, but I think there is very little to the "all encompassing predestination" that some people teach. I really enjoyed your thought on why everyone starts as a free will christian. I'm not sure I completely agree with it, but that shows sharp insight into the question.

I would respectfully disagree with your comment about predestination prior to St. Augustine, however, as most letters we have from church elders in the late first and early second and third centuries don't discuss unconditional predestination unless its coming from the gnostic sects. A strong sense of predestination came earliest from the gnostics, while earliest letters from the church showed a "conditional" or "inculcated" predestination in which God would awake within you the desire to be in his Grace, and if you followed that line with any desire at all then God would remove the obstacles for you to accept Him and become saved - perhaps predestination but far different than modern versions.

In fact in irony, many of St. Augustine's contemporaries wrote of his views as disturbing because they were contradictory to orthadoxy, and influenced by Manichee sectual teachings.

Plus, I'm still learning ancient Greek and Hebrew, as I'd like to see the words in their original languages before being set on any interpretation.

I probably went on way too long - I have a bad habit of that when I find something really interesting :). Thanks again for the great comment, and while we disagree at this point, I do say that your point of view on predestination seems far more reasonable (and defensible) than what many others have tried to convince me of.

Thanks again for stopping by!


t.keeley profile image

t.keeley 8 years ago from Seattle, WA

No problem! What I was saying about Augustine was that he just organised what was widely accepted as church doctrine. That was something I read in a few calvinism books, of course they're going to be biased, but the reality is that total and absolute free will arguments weren't in existence until much later. Paul himself writes on he aspect of God's elect in his epistles.

I think you were referring to "hyper-calvinism", or absolute and total sovereignty. This differs from election in the sense that God 'controls everything like robots' instead of merely controlling the righteousness of men. If you believe that man is controlled by sin his sin so much that he is dead to it, then there's no other explanation than God changing their hearts first.

My father has an MDiv in ancient languages and I have three friends studying ancient languages currently, each of those four men are strong calvinists. I find it ironic that every pastor I've listened to who has not studied ancient languages thoroughly advocates a strong arminian stance. It's not a gut instinct, it's the Word of God :)

Man wants a part in his own redemption, it's simply our nature. Even more proof that we cannot live righteously outside God's power.


Jerry G2 profile image

Jerry G2 8 years ago from Cedar Rapids, IA Author

Hey Keely,

Good to see you back! I had heard of hyper-Calvinism, but didn't know what exactly that meant versus regular Calvinsim. For the most part my concerns on predestination I think often aren't from the philosophical thought itself, but from many of the unsupported arguments/beliefs that are often practiced as a result of it. I hate when predestination is used as an excuse for a person to justify all their actions or all their beliefs and to trash someone who disagrees with them - there's not way God supports that because of the obvioius fact that no person is perfect.

I'm okay with the people being inherently evil (I really see no other argument one can make against this argument) and with God being necessary to make the decision and change the heart, it's the celebrating/exhalting oneself other others who (according to one interpretation of doctrine) whose souls were made by a loving God for the sole purpose of being rejected by said God and burning for all eternity because they're not "elect."

Shame interactions with a few zealots of any belief can really burn you on certain ideas instinctually for the rest of your life, isn't it? Thanks again for commenting - this is always a contentious subject so many people read, but don't want to open themselves to being blasted by others who disagree.


t.keeley profile image

t.keeley 8 years ago from Seattle, WA

We are clearly responsible for our sin, not our righteousness! I think we agree on that because of the explanayion you've given. You are again referring to the "hyper" end of the ordeal. Since righteousness is non-existant outside of the Holy Spirit, you cannot do anything independently "good" as a result. anything that looks good is merely an exhibit of your sinful pride in the end. You have every ability to choose evil, though. That much is perfectly clear in the world today.

Read the book "The Potter's Freedom" and come back when you're done. It will help open your eyes to the truth about election and the doctrines of sovereign grace. While we can essentially screw our lives up, it hinders not the ultimate plan of God. The will of God is not where you are, but who you are. If His will is our santification, it is only natural that that process is carried out by the Spirit in the lives of His followers. If you do so independently, the best result you can hope for is failure. :)


cegainesjr profile image

cegainesjr 8 years ago from No Mans Land

Excellent hub! Our belief systems tend to shape our reality and our "life paradigm", through which we filter all of our experiences. I am impressed with the 200 books you have read while searching for truth. I'd love to see a hub reviewing them. My favorite definition of destiny: That's when your dogma gets run over by your karma! You should write a full-length book on this subject exploring the depths of the belief- I'd buy it!


Jerry G2 profile image

Jerry G2 8 years ago from Cedar Rapids, IA Author

Hi cegainesjr, thanks for the comment! I've always loved philosophy and paradox, and one good thing about being a voracious leader is that 200 books are much easier to digest over 15 years :) I love learning, and I'm always interested in hearing new and different arguments, even if I don't agree with them. The learning is the point, I think. I love your definition of destiny! Thanks for visiting!


pure joy 7 years ago

I truly believe we start off wanting free will, then believing that our decisions were made by free will, and eventually, if we are seriously wanting to know God, He shows us He led us to Himself! and is using everything, even evil, to bring about His will.

Wow!!!! That is an awesome God!


Paraglider profile image

Paraglider 7 years ago from Kyle, Scotland

Even disallowing the existence of god (which I tend to do), there is still no completely clear line between free will and determinism. Everyone is a product of their past. We like to think of our planned past (education, employment decisions etc) but we are also a product of our last boiled egg. If it was too soft, we might be feeling irritable and as a result dash off an ill-considered email that could have life changing consequences. Both the Uncertainty Principle and Chaos Theory destroy the notion of absolute free will, but they destroy planned determinism too. So, like so many big yes/no questions, the answer is neither. Good hub though.


Jerry G2 profile image

Jerry G2 7 years ago from Cedar Rapids, IA Author

Hi Paraglider,

Thanks for the comment! I tend to agree with a lot of what you're saying. I think there's a certain paradox to the control vs. free will and there really isn't one completely triumphing over the other, but a degree of percentages that leads to each person's individual make up. I think we're along the same lines, just describing positions as different. I would say both exist (as opposed to neither), but neither exists in complete and total form. It's a fascinating argument to me both on the philosophical and religious level, as well as the sceintific and how the universe works level. Was that "random" decision I made based on 29 years of past and subconcious influence, or was it a "random" decision that took place because a universes's "string" from a far away galaxy passed through a planet and me and that zap changed my normal behavior? Or was it just one random decision?

Thanks for the thought-invoking comments, always welcome here!


Jewels profile image

Jewels 7 years ago from Australia

Paradoxes - yes. I have to sit in the middle line by experience. I would easily have said free will in the beginning, particularly after deconstructing conditioning that limited my own free will. Only then could I really understand the difference between social conditioning and free will. Then seeing how events occur that did not seem to fall into my free will category, I had to ask "who or what is pulling strings here?" It's a fascinating subject even when taken on the experiential level. Nice hub.


thurstjm profile image

thurstjm 7 years ago from Mysterious

I read the hub, but not the comments, so I apologize if this has already been addressed.

I think you may be relying too much on religion in the arguments against free will. Predestination and determinism aren't actually exactly the same thing. Predestination is the belief that God has determined everything that will happen, and thus it cannot be changed. However, determinism can exist independently of any diety. The non-religious argument for determinism basically goes like this: As humans, it is impossible for us to know the workings of everday matter. However, the universe is made up of atoms that exist, and will interact with eachother based on laws of physics. The laws of physics are not based on chance. Because of this, if you could somehow know the position of every atom in the universe at any given time and know all the laws of nature, you could determine everything that would happen from that point on in the universe.

As humans, we are influenced by our genetics and past experiences. These influences determine our personalities and the choices we make in everyday life. Soft determinism allows for the existence of free choice. You can choose to do what you wish as an individual. However, you can not choose what you wish, because our wants are determined by our personalities, which are formed by influences outside of our control. Though we can make a choice in a given situation, because of who we are (which is out of our control), we WILL necessarily make that choice. Thus, we do not have free will in the sense that we can alter our future.

One argument you mentioned against this was random activity on the quantum level. Although random quantum activity is still debated, I don't think that it proves free will. If random activity in our brains, random being the key word, could influence our actions, we would not be any more free. The possible different choices in any given situation, though not determined, would still be based on random chance, and not on any inner notion of free will.

In a nutshell, the world does not have to be omnisciently pretermined nor do individuals need to have some kind of "destiny" to be deprived of the ability to alter their futures.

If you have any questions, or want to discuss this more, let me know.


G. Forbes 7 years ago

If god decides everything then we should all be happy and doing the right choice. Why would Hitler exist then? Why would God place him on earth? Could the reason be to help advance our society. That's impossible as the only way we could have advanced in was warfare technology and better protection. God truly intended us to be loving and kind to others. Could the reason be to punish us. But then that would lead us to the fact that God does not have the power to control us and that free will exists. The Torah is proof that God does not have the power to control us. God gets very angry in the old testament, and kills many Israelites. Why would he get angry if he knew everything and could control everything? Because God is angry that people aren't listening to him. Predestination has a flaw.

God wouldn't use evil if he was in power. There is always a way to do it nicely

You can't be sort of pregnant, you are or you aren't! Same with predestination and free will, there is no middleground.

God ended up regretting making Man, quoted from the bible. Why would he regret making man if he knew everything. "God regretted giving Man freewill as he can no longer control him." God rewards those who are faithful to him like Noah and the arc. God would make everyone faithful towards him by somehow "bending" their destiny. But he can't. God tried three times to convert people to believing in him. #1 Abraham the first jew (Judaism) #2 Jesus to convert them back to the "real way" of following god (Christianity) #3 Mohammed was visited by the angel Gabriel to convert people to the real way of following god (Islam). Why would he try so hard to convert people if he could simply bend their destiny? Islam means submission, because they submit to god's will. Why would they need to submit to gods will if he could do it himself. Truthfully predestination would be a lot easier for God. This proves that God can't guide us through the path. He can only put us at the edge of a forest hoping that the way we make is the right way.

you could be talking about a different definition of predestination, because i can't see anyway how freewill & predestination can both co-exist.


G. Forbes 7 years ago

I apologize if my comment doesn't make too much sense. It was the only way i could transcribe my thoughts.


Jerry G2 profile image

Jerry G2 7 years ago from Cedar Rapids, IA Author

@thurstjm, really good comment, I always appreciate really good arguments on either free will or predestination. The basis of the arguments are definitely slanted towards the religious, as that's where the debate between determinism and free will tends to take place most often and so that's the arena in which I most often engage with this argument. I gave a nod to the science, the quantum physics, the subconcious mind's overwhelming influence over us, because I wanted others to be aware of these arguments and this part of the debate, but also I'm still learning more about these topics, so my emphasis is more with what I've known and studied. Part of what's interesting to me is how one person can believe in either free will or predestination, then explain that stance to another person who then argues with the very definitions of what either free will or determinism really are. This ambiguity is something that keeps the arguemnt interesting. I appreciate the comments. Thanks for taking the time to join the conversation!

@ Forbes. I think part of what's so interesting/hard about the free will & predestination arguments is that it's hard to nail down a specific definition for either one. From the religious side, the idea of predestination seems to come mostly from Paul, as far as I can tell, since that term comes up repeatedly. Now if you're Jewish, this isn't a problem at all theologically for obvious reasons. If you're Christian, then the issues begin. Personally at this point, and this is a great oversimplification, I do believe there is a paradox. If you want to call it free will with a lot of "interference," then I could live with that definition. Thanks for commenting!


AMiles profile image

AMiles 7 years ago from Miami Beach, FL

Predestination vs. Free Will

At birth, we know we are predestined to die.

The question of either has less to do with religion & everything to do with universal principles. The religious implication, as presented is humankind’s interpretation of the words & their written meaning.

Predestination is merely another way of saying “natural state, natural path, natural gift, etc. It is a universal truth about whom each of us is & what each of us can contribute to the world and ourselves. If we decide to follow this truth, we will fulfill our individual desires, i.e. purpose & meaning, leading to a life of true fulfillment, but predestination in and of itself does not affect individual decision-making. Your life is your decision.

Free will within the context of universal principles is always ours to control; we can choose to decide or not decide anything, anytime, anywhere. Ultimately, the road we travel is of our own free will. As we navigate thru life, we are open to many influences… popular culture, family, friends, the world, our own egos, but we innately know our predetermined path, by virtue of who we are, however that path will only lead the way when we choose to follow & exercise free will.

Predestination & Free Will are not separate from us they are us; we bring them to life…

Predestination & free will are like aging, with it, come wrinkles, a predestined occurrence, however some, thru free will, choose to erase those wrinkles, but in the end it doesn’t change their age or any real truth about them.


kephrira profile image

kephrira 7 years ago from Birmingham

I agree that both are true. To have free will that will must come from somewhere, from some inner nature of yours, in which case what you will is predetermined by your inner nature. For it not to be predetermined by your nature it would have to be dependent on random events and environment and so on. In either case in an absolute sense it is predetermined, but that doesn't stop it from being free. You are constrained by predestination only to the extend that you cannot be anything other than yourself, and cannot will anything other than what it is in your nature to will - but why would you want to want something you don't want?


catnip09 profile image

catnip09 7 years ago

What reason is there for the human mind to exist if not for free will? Would not a species without free will more resemble an ant colony or bee hive? For what good would be dreams and desires if all life is predetermined. Considering how much time humans spend planning their lives, What a cruel hoax a predetermined existence would be!


Rulebreaker 7 years ago

I believe I have free will. If predestination is true then God Predestined me to think i have free will. Why would God predestine me to believe a lie when the 9th commandment is to not lie?


J. Kumm profile image

J. Kumm 6 years ago from Washington

Hey Jerry,

I'm mostly stopping by to say kudos for the great write-up and conversation. Frankly, I think to an extent, both predetermination and free will exist at the same time. Perhaps we even have free will to choose if we feel we are predetermined to one fate or another. Who says we can't have our cake and eat it too?

One of my favorite free will evangelists is a man by the name of Rob Brezsny. Rob writes a great horoscope and talks about his book Pronoia on his website: http://freewillastrology.com/

I'm not working for Rob, but just wanted to share as he seems to be a prominent, modern- day figure in this conversation.


qwark profile image

qwark 6 years ago

Hi Jerry:

Nicely done, but

why complicate a simple subject?

Man has evolved an anomaly he has defined as "consciousness" which is simply an awareness of his being and of that which surrounds him.

"Consciousness" seperates him from simpler "life" forms which are controlled by genetics i.e. instinct and learned behavior.

Man is "unique" because he functions by both "instinct" and "will." He can, willfully, override an instinctive response to stimulus and "determine" his reaction.

Physics and serendipity determine all else.

To relate either "free will or predestination" to religious myth is the height of primitive inanity.


lovejesus 6 years ago

I have been wrestling with this idea for years. I do beleive in predestination to a degree. Not to the extent of Calvinism. I believe, if God chooses you to do a certain thing, you are going to do it. I challenge anyone to show me one person in the Bible who didn't want to do something & they didn't. There is Gideon, Jonah, Moses even Saul. God was patient but they did it. That to me is the strongest evidence of predestination other than, God condemning poor Saul the first mistake he made & told him that HE God was "seeking him a man after his own heart". Now this was many years before David was even in the womb. David wrote in Psalms of his deeply intimate relation ship while David was in the womb. But I don't know. Also, in the Old testiment, it seems to me that God has different relationships with different people. It seems he has more patients with some than others. Like I look at Samuel & Joshua, two good guys, you think God would really be happy about them. There're interactions with God were nothing like the passion that existed in God's interactions with David. I just don't know.


Jack 6 years ago

to deny the fact that we are predestined as gods elect would be to deny the sovereignty of god

man is incapable of saving themselves

that's why we needed jesus

if we are incpable of saving ourslevs then god must choose to soften our hearts, and that is predestination

however, we still make a decision, wif say you are choosing a hot drink, you make the decision, did you feel anything influencing you? but god still planned it, but you still made the decision,

it is a difficult concept and i think the full picture is way out of what we can understand


saved in maine profile image

saved in maine 6 years ago from Lake Placid FL

I have looked at Jesus and what He has done as a free gift to all. Even those who are far removed from Christian witness are given the signs to know that God exists. God is outside of time. He sees the entire human time line. He knows the decisions that will be made by every human being over the course of their life times. Does He really want people to love Him because He chose them to love Him?

I cannot embrace the doctrine of pre-destination. For whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. To me, that means that we have the ability to choose.


one more opinion 6 years ago

There are problems with both views. Calvinism is weak in that I have no choice in believing in Christ. According to Calvin, Christ died on the cross save only those he had chosen to be saved and at his chosen time they are enlightened to be able to accept him as their Savior. Once they have been saved, they can then do nothing at all (no matter how much they sin) to loose their salvation. All of this is contrary to what the Bible says about Christ dying for the sins of all mankind and God desiring all men to be saved. Also the Bible clearly states that we must repent of our sins and believe in Christ as our Savior in order to be saved. This is my choice to make and cannot be made for me by someone else.

On the other hand, Arminianism is weak in that it does not recognize all that God has already done for us to bring us to the place where we are willing to accept Christ as our Savior. The Bible clearly teaches both free will and God's election are true. Calvinists chose one set of verse to follow and Arminians chose a different set of verse to follow. God's whole truth is somewhere in the middle between these two human opinions.


rickinpoulsbo 6 years ago

GREAT COMMENTARY AND DISCUSSION. I've been evolving into more of a predestinational position for many years. I don't really know when it first started. But, suffice it to say that at this point I have pretty much become fully engulfed by it. Indeed, I tend to look at Calvinists as just one more group of free will advocates. I guess that should tell you where I'm coming from on this topic. I also tend to look at the argument that "both exist to one degree or another" as something of a cop-out; a way of saying "this is a great idea for intellectual discourse but I really can't deal with all the other questions that it raises." And, clearly, it does raise many other questions; any one of which could be a topic unto itself.

I meet with a small group of guys (usually 10-12) on Wednesday mornings. We've been doing this for over 9 years. We don't call it a Bible Study. It's more of a Christian discussion group. We also call it The Church of the Checkered past because most of us believe in God, but have a bit of a problem with institutionalized religion. We cover the entire spectrum on this particular issue. I represent the one extreme. Others are hard-core free will advocates. And the rest are located somewhere in the middle. It leads to some intersting discussions, to say the least. But we have learned to agree to disagree on this and many other issues. And we accept the idea that God didn't create us all to act the same way or to think the same things.

That being said, I had an interesting thought recently. As has been suggested above, there are several references to predestination in the scriptures. But I don't find any reference to free will anywhere. Indeed, quite the opposite. It seems that we are constantly being exhorted to put our will aside and to get on His bandwagon. In fact, I've heard it suggested that elevating our will over His could easily be interpreted as being the Original Sin. I don't know...I haven't had the opportunity to bring this to our meeting yet, but rest assured that I will do so next week. I would love to see if somebody can lead me to a verse or 2 that has something specific to say about the free will issue. I'm always open for new information...


Dan Miles 6 years ago

Thanks for a logical look at both beliefs.


Kent 6 years ago

Thank you for this, Jerry G2. It has helped me to deal with my own theological confusion over what extent God is involved in our lives.

I've been teaching, along with others in my adult Sunday school class, a series of lessons on spiritual maturity. We've been taking turns bearing our testimonies as a way of learning more about ourselves and each other. This Sunday I'll be sharing on events that led to my late-in-life conversion by profession of faith and subsequent growth as a disciple of Jesus Christ. It's been a halting journey for me, a journey marked by periods of progress interrupted by periods of falling back. I’m in the progress mode once again, thanks be to God (gee, that very phrase smacks of Calvinist influence, does it not?)!

I found your example of “backsliders” and salvation in defense of the free will argument to be particularly relevant. My own free will theology has been based on the illogic of preaching the Gospel to nonbelievers who, if predestination is absolute reality, are going to acknowledge God and be saved anyway. But now I’m not so sure that free will is the absolute reality either. In hindsight, I have been saved, literally and physically, time and time again. I’m sure of it. For what purpose, I do not know. But I now suspect that I’ve been spared over and over for some purpose, a purpose that I have perhaps already lived out in the greater scheme of things and have not even been aware. But how can anyone know?

I do believe that our choices are influenced by who we are (our individual propensities), our experiences in life, and by our perceptions of present circumstances. So, metaphysically speaking, we are guided in our decision making (determinism). However, just as Jesus was able to resist temptation in the desert after forty days of fasting (Matthew 4:1-11), we too can resist temptation. We too can chose right over wrong. We have the ability to change, to overcome burdens, no matter what, and to succeed. If we could not, what would be the point? Why, as you have pointed out, would a loving God create people just to trash them?

This does not preclude the possibility that, at times, so that His ultimate will might be manifest, God intervenes. It is my belief that He does, and I will cite examples of His intervention in my life as part of my upcoming lesson.

Perhaps there is a greater purpose waiting out there for me to serve. Therefore, the possibility for future or continued contribution to the greater good compels me journey on.


Sarah 5 years ago

I firmly believe in both. God knows everything about us, so why wouldn't he know what choices we are gonna make in life. He gives us the free will to make those choices, but since he already knows what those choices are, that is how there is also predestination. I love the saying "everything happens for a reason" because its so true due to predestination. No matter what choices we make with our free will, good or bad, it is exactly what God already knew we would do. Nobody else knows what is going to happen with each choice we make in life and I feel that's what some people get caught up on when talking about predestination, that history is already written, but it is just nobody on Earth knows the details. If predestination did not exist then how do we have Revelations?? If free will did not exist then why do I stress over every little choice in life, hopeing its the right one???


rick 5 years ago

the egyptian book of the dead and the bhagavad gita dealve deeply into the concept of the pre-chosen elite the human caste system has been around for millineia. Jesus Christ used parables explaining the paradoxes of life. Being guided by the Holy Spirit, allowed choices and sometimes being put into certain positions by God are all some of the aspects of an all powerfull Father that has placed us here to learn to understand his way is the way of love.


sean 5 years ago

I am thinking about a blog idea, And I am given to this kind of Christian thought. I see a lot of comments so

there is some searching being done out there. MOST of what I read takes the logical cardinal view. God's words do the talking but the heart is hard. How to know you are free unless you are free? Yes and without the truth man knows nothing like he would. There is room enough in this world for a none Christian view but it

is still a lie. The more you read, likely, the more lies you will know. God's word is truth and the Spirit is truth. Glory to God in the highest.


Michael Saunders 5 years ago

Is it possible that by predestination Paul means that in amatter of true faith, that the faithful are predestined to walk in righteousness because being born again by the Holy spirit means we are a "NEW" creation and not a remake of the old? Ephesians 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.Prhaps the verses are not teaching pre determination but the result of the new birth as a good tree cannot bear bad fruit and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. The Fruit of a tree is a product of the root. like Faith. Faith alone must be seen as true faith. because only true faith is evidenced by works. The didviding line of truth must be that Faith as James says is a combination of TRUE faith and works. Yet if you say that without qualification you would be teaching against Eph 2:8;9 that says You are saved by faith, it is the gift of God Not Of Works.lest anyone should boast. Therefore works are not added to be saved but because we are saved. The true saints do perservere to the end, not to be saved but because they are saved. My belief is that is what predestination is. Those who are truly saved are the ones who are predestined to be adopted as sons. What do you think?


Paul Erickson 5 years ago

Free will is a magnetic absolute and human will as it is ,is a magnetic variable. 'current awareness'

All the great teachings emphasize forgiveness , love and truth . This is why .

Science and theology aren't so far apart , the first babble in the bible is about knowledge ....good and bad , that covers everything , right .

Science has deduced that the composition of all substance and all discernible phenomenon is a subatomic / electronic flow that started with the big bang .

Theology describes god as an absolute of awareness, simultaneously 'current' across all time and across all space .

Reconcile these two bits of knowledge and conclude that electronic flow is awareness and from that we can extrapolate that 'knowledge' of electronic flow applies to awareness .

The potential of god evolved from a single possibility , let the void filled by the universe represent infinite time and space . The 'mind of god' evolved from a single point of vibration , sustained by the determination to be , described in the singular as 'I am' .

Vibration is an act of will , with each back and forth of vibration the point changed location on the surface of time creating sequential expansion and linear movement . A benign but positive magnetic value , it's resonance .

Such is the nature of time and space that all conduct is eternally suspended and currently aware . The perfected being of an increasing magnetic potential , a primary continuity of positive cause and effect .

The transition from linear expansion to creator of the universe involved an 'evolutionary' process , the creation of knowledge .

There was a deviation , the first 'electron' determined it's travel in two directions , this created a paradox of intellect . The intention to subtract from a positive continuity of vibration is erroneous .

To put this in perspective , if we interrupt the determination of a single electron within an atom the potential of the atom is released . This was way bigger .

All vibration is a physical positive meaning numerical contribution , negative intention will not subtract vibration it alters its resonance / magnetic determination .

So , instead of two connected points of the same awareness there's a zillion individuals each physically connected on the surface of time but aware only of its own creation and continuity .

Each individual an 'absolute' of awareness , like the first with the same potential ,expanding across time creating a 'veil' in the same way . Behaving like bumper cars , either aligning positively with others and going faster or by aligning negatively and crashing and exploding .

The cause and effect of will are intention and perception , the introduction of a variable provides the catalyst of possibility .The 'apparent mayhem' was a process of the evolution of physical and intellectual geometry . The knowledge being created is a binary of all possible sequence and combination of positive and negative conduct .

The perception of principle conduct is emotion .

Positive intention ,contribution, causes magnetic attraction and connects awareness as compassion the perception is love .

Negative intention ,subtraction, causes magnetic opposition and isolates awareness as malice the perception is fear .

Each individual creating its own parallel binary within the new 'social' paradigm . Each an inherent physical positive , socially attractive but intellectually random .Each accumulating a unique geometry of the same possibilities , all combinations of binary repeat and create fractals .

The possibilities of will are infinite , the knowledge of geometric possibility is a finite potential .When the first accumulated an absolute of potential it aligned magnetically , polarizing the initial determination of paradox and connecting all awareness and continuity as a unified intellect . The continuum/god is a magnetic absolute , the intellectual determination of an irresistible force , love , the sequential equilibrium of will and resonance . The alignment of the knowledge of all that is transcends to a knowledge of all that will be , god .

Physical creation exploits the properties of intellect , time/space , and continuity . Multiples of electrons align as interlocking circuits . Each completed sequence a closed circuit of a temporal agreement , an atom , a structure of current awareness . By definition a technical process .

The physical body of god is the universe , all of it absolutely aware and absolutely connected as intellect , all things are the circuitry of gods intention. As an absolute of knowing of all things , the only thing god cannot possess is an 'unknown' . As to why god made mankind , life begets life .

mankind is a technology , a hybrid of the awareness that created us , in fact our awareness is the very same . However our perception is modified to be locational and temporal , that's what it takes to be physical . The modification to our perception is independent thought . The brain processes all information as memory , even current information is first entered as perception .

Physically a human being is a chosen image , but human continuity exists on the surface of time and in that way is parallel to and created in the image of god .Mankind's purpose is to possess independent free will and populate heaven . To achieve this a human potential has to be cultured , evolved outside the connected awareness of heaven.

The earth was created to facilitate this . Our world is on a tilted axis , it is out of faze with heaven . The tilt is a magnetic devise initiated by the 'fall of man' , a paradox of intellect , the knowledge of good and bad is a magnetic variable .

The tilted axis is held in place by a negative potential , an omnipotent awareness , a reflection ,indistinguishable from but opposite of god . Its purpose is to provide negative intellect .

A human soul is an electron , in every way a unit of god . The evolution of human potential begins and ends with the first soul ,a process engineered around our self determination .

What isn't apparent is the nature of our continuity . All human perception and conduct is simultaneous , in the present , the current point of determination . Mankind is the geometric lattice of human continuity , from the first to the present and beyond into eternity .

We were placed in this world to do exactly as we have , to physically sequence the knowledge of good and bad .

This poses the question , 'how will it end ?'

Well , because of our independent nature , humanity cannot be aligned by a common absolute , each individual determines their own magnetic value . Free will is the human equivalent of gods will , intellect aligned by the principle of truth / unconditional love .

Contrary to a commonly held misconception , anyone can enter heaven and receive free will . It is a technical challenge involving the components of will , intellect and integrity .

In 1956 a circuit , of the first , was isolated from the circuit of mankind , by the determination of a man . And evolved as a duplicate parallel of mankind . The ultimate purpose being to provide a circuit for the alignment of free will .

At the end of days there will be a window of opportunity .

Then the circuit that is now mankind , along with the reflection that is this world , and the negative potential will be grounded into the earth . The axis will correct , placing the aligned circuit of mankind in a new world in heaven .

This will be the final step in the process of our creation . All that's required to receive free will is a determined positive absolute , meaning that you have forgiven everything and are positively determined toward every other .

Until then , do your best , and remember that the only thing that matters is how we treat each other .

***

As a human being you are well versed in the process of will . Every action and word creates the conduct of your intention ,a variable, to either contribute or subtract


Har 5 years ago

PREDESTINATION VS FREE WILL

In order to have an objective view, we must discard the orthodox religions ideas about the subject because most religions are only mental concepts of men about God and who we are.

To me the orthodox religions discredit themselves with their own history; from the very beginning Christianity for example is full of episodes of cruelty and impositions, forcing people to accept their believes and destroying sources of other ideas such as the burning of Library of Alexandria during the crusades, also the inquisition and even John Calvin the reformer had his own inquisition in France, burning his opponents.

Furthermore, the reality is that Christ or Jesus is not a historical figure; the church cannot prove his existence any more than the Greeks can prove the existence of their Gods that we now call Mythological figures, perhaps some day Christianity will joint this category.

We find similar irrational ideas in the Eastern as well, such as the believe of the sacred cows and rats, the cows became sacred by a decree from a ruler in order to stop the thievery and the killing of the animal during a drought forcing the people to drink the milk to survive. Something similar happened with the rats, another decree to protect the bottom of the food change and keep the tigers from eating people. Today if you ask a humble follower of this religion why is this so, the answer maybe that it is God’s law.

Consequently I prefer to set aside the religion ideas on predestination and free will and address the subject from a logical point of view. By analyzing life and who we are we may find some answers.

The philosopher Rene Descartes once said “I think therefore I am” I will like to bring this further by saying “I think therefore I am, the thinker of the thoughts” I am not the thoughts, I am the one having the thoughts and I have free will to think what ever I want to think, in addition thoughts are a form of energy and thoughts create events in one life, therefore, I create my life as I think, consequently in this equation I have free will to create the life I want.

Taking this idea deeper, we think in the manner in which we accept, for example, if you believe in damnation you are accepting that possibility and your thinking goes accordingly thus creating unnecessary fear in your life, but you have the freedom to reasoned and reject this crazy idea and not feel the fear of damnation. This is freedom of choice.

So we have the free will to select our thinking, we are free to reject or accept other people ideas as well as accept or reject believes or dogmas that govern the way we think and feel, two important elements in the creation of our future. A clear example of this are the Jews, most of them do well in life because they are led to believe that they are God’s chosen people and they act accordingly.

As far as Free Will we have the power to accept or reject ideas and in the process we direct our lives to be as we think therefore we have the Free Will to create our own life.

PREDESTINATION

On the other side of this discussion there are things we cannot change, either by the grace of God or by the will of the Universe which ever suits you, bottom line is we are here in this physical world. Chances are we may have also chosen to be here but for what reason?

I find several common denominators among all the living, being animals or plants, one of the most interesting is that we are all predestine to learn and we cannot helped, humans learn every day if not every minute, we are always learning in fact we often repeat the lessons life gives us, we go through the same experiences over and over because we fail to learn the lesson and it is repeated until we learn it. I read somewhere that man is the only animal that stumbles on the same rock twice.

Animals and plants are also learning constantly, mainly developing ways to protect or nourish to ensure survival.

Another common denominator is that we need each other so we are predestined to depend on each other and we cannot help it.

Another common denominator is the obedience to the many universal laws; we all have to learn and obey these laws, when we break them in ignorance we receive the consequences continually until we learn to respect them. ( Find a list of these laws in the book “The Spiritual Laws of life” by Harold Klempt)

So here is my take in all this: We are divine entities evolving to become co-workers with the creation, we are doing that right now in some manner or some way, we have no choice but to evolve, look how far we have traveled so I believe that we are mini Gods in training predestine to become greater participants in the creation, that is our destiny and we cannot change it.

The sooner we accept this and begin to see others as part of the same plan the faster we grow spiritually and exercise respect and love for one another, the more we see ourselves as Spiritual beings the better is our understanding and the better is our life.

Harold Holguin


@coreycyobrown 5 years ago

I really enjoyed this post and comments. I have so much I want to say but can't began to write them./lol I will bring attention to this--> find too many "coincidences" to ever fully believe in completely uninfluenced and total free will, but by the same token to believe in any type of deity that isn't evil, cruel, petty, or vindictive then some type of free will has to exist.I find too many "coincidences" to ever fully believe in completely uninfluenced and total free will


josh 5 years ago

It’s as if god has designed a game a bit like a test that never ends because there was no beginning like a circle; it had to be like this so we could have the opportunity to come to him, because love is freedom, nothing in this life really matters, because we all die, so what if death was not the end. This life is a gift temporary, but what a gift how amazing is the universe, who cares if we never fully understand it. Anyway what that Jesus guy was talking about made sense because that what living is, never easy but never pointless.


1stsgtUSMC 5 years ago

I believe there has always been controversy over this issue but within the church, the earliest accounts of a suggested conflict appear with the writings of Augustine and Pelagius. I am not likely to end this conflict with this writing but I can tell you that what got me over the 'hump' was Romans 8: 28-30.

In general, all Calvinists are taught and believe that the references to God not wanting any to perish and specifically John 3:16 and 2 Peter 3:9 as well as many others, define his intent for those he has 'predestined'. But if this is true, is it not disingenuous or at least a waste of words to delcare this to those he has predestined? After all; an Omniscient and Omnipotent God will not lose any...it is a wasted effort to write it to encourage those who actually believe they have been predestined - for salvation.

In Romans 8: 28-30, Paul, the reasoner, logically lays out the progression from salvation to growth and finally perfection. I do not find it coincidental that the first step in verse 29, is a passive verb; foreknew and that all of the other verbs following are active.

That calvinists suggest all who do not accept it's precepts are prideful, is ludicrous. It is in fact the very opposite. Knowing who I am, I cannot imagine God selecting me above literally billions of others. It is, in fact, a broken spirit that denies calvinism if anything and a prideful one that declares God pre-selected me for salvation while effectively, by neglect, delivered literally billions of others to hell.

And by the way; the free will argument does not see God as less Sovereign or man having any 'part' in his salvation. It is all of God and it is all his plan and his Son who died for the sins of all men. But as with Adam; men have been given a free will to choose and the sad truth is, men prefer their sinful state more than they do a just, Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Omniscient God.

Many millions will go to hell for denying Jesus Christ and his sacrifice and denying John 14:6.


Craig 5 years ago

I will weigh in as a Christian who strongly supports concepts of free will. I find it rather interesting that some on here claim that the Bible "clearly" supports predestination. Funny, because I would say just the opposite. From the story of the potter and the clay in Jeremiah 18 (what God will do with the clay depends on how the clay responds to Him), to the Israelites being told to "choose whom they would serve" (Deuteronomy 30) to us being told to "draw near to God and He will draw near to us" (James 4:8), we are constantly hit in scripture with the fact that we have choices to make. To claim predestination is clearly supported in scripture above free will is to deny the obvious and plain meaning of these passages and passages that show God loves ALL men and desires that NONE should perish (1 Timothy 2; 2 Peter 3:9), or the passages where God warns people not to harden their hearts in response to His voice or to fall away (Hebrews 4; Hebrews 10). These are but a small sampling of the many verses in scripture supporting man's free will.

And, as for the fact that we are "dead in our sins" and cannot save ourselves, I agree. But, that misses the point. When the gospel is preached, it brings enlightenment to our dead hearts (consider Hebrews 6:4, for example). It is at that point that we have the ability to choose to believe or reject Jesus. If we reject Jesus, then He will reject us (Matthew 10:33; 2 Timothy 2:12). Timothy was told that some would abandon the faith (1 Timothy 4:1) and that he should persevere, BECAUSE if he did, he would save both himself and his hearers! (1 Timothy 4:16) (that's an odd directive to him, because it makes clear that his teaching and evangelism would impact the salvation of men - something that would not be true if predestination is correct).

Anyway, I do acknowledge there are Bible verses that discuss "election" or use the term "predestined" and it is clear that God chose some people for a purpose (Jacob was chosen, Jesus chose the 12 disciples, etc.). But, just because God chooses some for a purpose, does not mean He chooses all who are saved. In fact, scripture seems to indicate to the contrary.

Peace and grace!


Lee M. 5 years ago

Perhaps one would do well to read Eccls.(NKJV.) 12:13,14; there appears to be one word missing that could very well explain some of the very things that have been discussed. From my own personal experiences there is nothing but fate; and if that is the case, we cannot even begin to pass judgment on what God has willed to be. Can you imagine(given an eternity) living every life under the sun? If that were to be true perhaps the rich man will not be so rich in the hereafter? Wouldn't that be a kick; thinking we are so great only to find that we are not responsible forwhat we may be; great or otherwise.


meth0d 4 years ago

predestination is false because events like a car crashes into you or you go to the zoo and a tiger hops the fence or you get aids from sleeping with someone or you play a sport and you get paralzyed.. none of these things were your "destiny" you just should never have done them. It's all about choices, choose wisely earthlings


QESdunn profile image

QESdunn 3 years ago

I propose that Predetermination and Free Will simultaneously exist.

Assuming:

1) Quantum Causality exists, and that

2) a quantum causal element is uniform, and that

3) everything is connected (as indicated by gravity and electromagnetism), and

4) alternate dimensional space(s) exist(s);

then:

1) for alternate dimensional space(s) not to interfere with one another the Universe would be finite, and

2) gravity and electromagnetism would be one set of constraints forming our dimensional space, and

3) Relativity would support multiple dimensional spaces limited by the properties of systems of quantum causality, and

4) as a finite system of quantum causality the system can be described as a continuum because it has no outside influences.

Therefore, everything eventually repeats in a causal continuum. Every variation that is possible, will have happened before. The Big Bang being just another cyclic event that does not necessarily spawn the same causal relationships; but eventually in numbers greater than we have ever estimated, only then does our present cycle repeat with the exactness of one of our previous cycles.

People really do not have an understanding of what tending toward infinite means; infinite "minus" all of the causal permutations of our universe is still closer to infinite, than it is to zero.

Predetermination exists, but in which cycle are we repeating, and all those other causal cycles that are different than our own in small part represent every alternate opportunity for making a different outcome. In most cycles humans do not exist; but eventually we do.

We continue to make every systemic decision possible, as we exist within this continuum.

In my present thesis, Karma is potentially a scalar moderator formed to moderate causal relationships of Recurrent Causality and Evolutionary Causality, all connected by simple causal connectedness.

I do not discount the potential of a cognitive moderator that continuously realigns causal moderators to prevent long term drifting of physical constants in an evolving environment. We are cognitive, a cognitive function(s) is(are) therefore testable. When we build tools to manipulate spacetime we may find cognitive responses to our efforts.

Relativity floats on a sea of moderated connectedness. Evolution is related to time, while Recursive is related to space; this dimension limited by the simple connectedness between all causal connectedness.

We would need to build a parallel universe largely unconnected with our own, and short-cycle causality to prevent evolution, to be able to detect when a cycle is repeated in our universe. Because even one sub-atomic particle causally acting differently, would not be a repeated cycle in our continuum.

Time is a Relativity concept and we are somewhere in a causal continuum in which simultaneously there is predetermination, and freedom of choice. Because we have made every alternate choice previously to be able to get back to the present causal cycle.

James Dunn

Thoughts in regard to "Building Universes"


tony ellis jr 3 years ago

simply put, i think we are all predestined to receive god:but it is our free will how long it takes


Nicolas de Menis profile image

Nicolas de Menis 2 years ago from Fukuoka-shi, Fukuoka, Japan

The answer is very easy to me since i am aware.

Everyone has free will, some cho(o)se Predestination.

Isn't this wonderful and very understandable?

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