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This thread is inspired by the illustrious hubber Wilderness.

  1. gmwilliams profile image85
    gmwilliamsposted 2 years ago

    http://s1.hubimg.com/u/9080748.jpg
    Wilderness has a way of presenting a logical and intelligent conclusion to many arguments.  What makes so many people drawn to religion although the bases of religion aren't based upon any logical premise?   Why do so many people feel the need to have a religion?   Is religion really necessary?

    1. wilderness profile image96
      wildernessposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      "Necessary"?  Probably not - people won't die from lack of religion.

      But for the most part it can and very often does serve a very valid and useful purpose in keeping people happy and satisfied with their life.  It is a great source of comfort to many millions.  It keeps the priesthood in coppers.  It provides a moral guide for those that cannot build their own, no matter how twisted and deformed it might be. 

      Religion, organized or not, has many uses.  Some good, some bad - much like any other group or cabal.

    2. Joshua-C-Rarrick profile image61
      Joshua-C-Rarrickposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      I just want to take a moment to make a logical point. You say that religion is not based on a logical premise. I would like you to expound on this, maybe in another thread if necessary. Religion is actually very logical.

      In order to understand the logic of religion you must ask the single most important question in the world: Where did the world come from?

      Religion's Answer: A Supreme Being who is more powerful than anyone or anything we can imagine on Earth designed and placed everything in our Universe. This Being laid everything out in the order it was meant to be in, then set the entire Universe to spin in certain directions and at certain speeds. His perfect creation is now self sustaining.

      WorldView: Nothing exploded and tiny bits of matter that did not exist before the explosion formed our Universe. As the explosion broadened planets were formed and then began to spin around and orbit the sun.




      Conclusion: The first choice makes logical sense. Also, the very theory of a big bang is completely disproven by space itself. For instance, when an explosion takes place, objects are often spun by the blast. However, every piece of debris will spin in the same direction. Three of our planets rotate opposite to the rest.

      So, tell me again how the belief in a Divine Being makes no logical sense, but to believe in an explosion where nothing was present and something of great order and intricacy suddenly appeared... that would be like piling scraps of paper with the alphabet written on them in a parking lot and setting a firecracker off in the pile and having a library pop out of the smoke.

      1. wilderness profile image96
        wildernessposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Unfortunately, postulating a creature from another universe that created this one has exactly zero to support it (outside of active imaginations).  The big bang has a great deal to support it, in spite of your negative comments (you really need to study the theory and understand it before trying to discuss it).

        The big bang was not the explosion of "nothing" in spite of the continual claims of the theists, trying to discredit the idea by changing it into something it never was.  Spin of planets has zero to do with the big bang.  Our planets formed billions of years AFTER the big bang and are not the direct product of any explosion.  Silly comparisons of firecrackers and the big bang are just that; silly and obviously coming from ignorance.

      2. EncephaloiDead profile image60
        EncephaloiDeadposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Certainly not by any definition of the word logic. You are actually expounding magic, not logic.



        That is an Argument from Ignorance fallacy. The Big Bang was an expansion and not an explosion as we understand explosions.

        Two of our planets rotate opposite to the rest, which has absolutely nothing at all to do with the Big Bang. This is called retrograde motion and you can read about it here:

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retrograde … ade_motion



        No, it's not even remotely the same thing, that again is an Argument from Ignorance fallacy.

      3. 0
        mbuggiehposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        At the risk of being BANNED again from Hubpages for being for being secular:

        The answers religion provides, which you claim are logical, are not logical they are simplistic.

        And your claims, such as that the Big Bang came from nothing, are just wrong. No scientists claims that  the Big Bang came from nothing. Read some cosmology (I suggest Michio Kaku or Brian Greene) and you will find that the Big Bang followed what is called the singularity.

        1. Joshua-C-Rarrick profile image61
          Joshua-C-Rarrickposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          If the Big Bang did not come from nothing....who made the matter that was involved in the explosion????

          Ohhhh wait, scientists have been trying to explain that for over a hundred years.... hmmmm again a master creator makes logical sense.

          1. 0
            Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            Care to explain who made the creator? Or are you about to make a logical fallacy?

            1. Kiss andTales profile image22
              Kiss andTalesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              You can not explain your own existence. And when you are given the answer you reject it. It does not matter because no human has any control of life here. Everything we use and need is not from our own making. We survive from a merciful creator who allows the grateful and un grateful to breath life through our lungs. If you really want to get an idea of his existence .then I give you a perfect circle .there is no beginning nor a end to a perfect circle it is what it is . It exist .

              1. 0
                Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                Right, you have no explanation and yet I can explain my existence. Perhaps the universe is a perfect circle. Expanding and contracting. I don't know, but to invent something that explains something without explaining the first something get us nowhere.

          2. wilderness profile image96
            wildernessposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            Have you not studied the workings of the big bang? 

            Matter came from energy that was produced in the "explosion" (it wasn't an explosion, but that term is close enough).  And that came from a singularity.  Which, perhaps, was there forever just like the Christian god is claimed to be.  Or perhaps it created itself; regardless of our pitifully limited experience in the macro world of the expanded universe, that is entirely possible.

            1. Joshua-C-Rarrick profile image61
              Joshua-C-Rarrickposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              The idea that singularity created itself is even less logical than to believe a Creator exists. Explain to me how a single small ball of matter expanded into a perfectly designed universe? Also, explain exactly how life on Earth "evolved" into the species we see today.

              It is true that you can see changes within a species. For instance, mules and burros used to haul coal in West Virginia in the 1800s eventually began giving birth to blind young because their bodies did not require the use of sight to complete their tasks in the dark mines. However, you will NEVER ONCE be able to show me where species have crossed those genetic lines to meld with other species. Never has a cat become a dog, or an aardvark evolved into an elephant. Evolution literally has NO SOLID PROOF. It is JUST A THEORY. Creation has documentation dating back to the beginning of recorded time. Evolution did not become a popular theory until Darwin brought his ideas to light in the 19th century. You are choosing to believe in something that originated in theory only a few moments in the timeless stretch of eternity past, rather than to take truth from people who have passed down history.

              You would take a historians word that George Washington was indeed the first president of the United States...although there are NO PHOTOGRAPHS of him in office. You're simply taking someone else's word for it.

              Here is a thought...before you try to prove your belief is true....prove mine is false. Innocent until proven guilty is an accepted policy in the world we live in. So, you have accused my belief of being false...prove it. However, I think we should open a new thread for it, as the topic here is whether or not religion is necessary for society.


              I believe it is necessary whether you believe in it or not. Without religion to guide them and give them a moral compass, many law abiding citizens would not be nearly as apt to follow rules and guidelines because they would have had no one to teach them to do right.

              1. wilderness profile image96
                wildernessposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                It's less logical is because you are not a top of the line cosmologist/physicist.  The folks that have studied the field for a lifetime don't seem to have a problem with the idea.

                When things explode they move apart.  And our universe is NOT "perfectly designed", not unless you enjoy massive collisions and destruction beyond belief.  When the Milky Way and Andromeda mesh and come together there will be destruction beyond anything we can imagine - that's NOT "perfectly designed".

                It's called "evolution"; spend a few years studying it and you will have the rudiments. 

                No, a cat has not become a dog; evolution says that would be extremely unlikely, to the point we will never see it.

                Prove a nonexistent god that is invisible and cannot be detected by any means doesn't exist?  A tough task indeed.  It's a good thing, isn't it, that the person making the claim has the burden of proof.  In the case of an extra-universal creature that created us, that would be you. 

                People obey laws because they are religious?  What in the world have YOU been smoking?  Christianity is the most common belief in the penal system!  But it doesn't take a priest, or even an imaginary god, to teach us what is right or wrong; most parents do a decent job of it.

                1. Kiss andTales profile image22
                  Kiss andTalesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  You can not believe in right and wrong and not believe in God ,for God is the one who created the language of right and wrong. Even the law of the land in a court of law uses the bible and recognize that.

                  1. wilderness profile image96
                    wildernessposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    Sorry, but the idea of right and wrong existed in our ancestors long before Christianity did.  Or even the Jewish faith, for that matter.  And no court in the US uses the bible for anything but an optional location to put a hand while swearing to tell the truth.

    3. 0
      mbuggiehposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      And after being BANNED from Hubpages for speaking some truth to some people, I can honestly say that is people like you, "gmwilliams", and "wilderness" who made me decide to return.

    4. Kiss andTales profile image22
      Kiss andTalesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      I have learned that religion can be what ever you make it to be ,what ever you give your soul for, what ever you put before yourself and is willing to die for that is your faith, or religion, many will die for their country or a great cause . But in the light of who really deserves that allegiance ,who really deserves that power we give to say I will die for you .should go to no one accept the one who gave you life in the first place. No one would exist if that one had not work out his plan to create a man and women. And so with the  great power he used to make us exist , he has the power to return life as well ,if our life force leave the human body , no one here on earth ordered our existence . Nor can we say tomorrow I shall live. It is in God's hands.

      1. wilderness profile image96
        wildernessposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        "The one that gave us life".  That would be two, our parents.  Nothing from a mythical creature from another universe, and certainly nothing from a proposed being said to be providing eternal life.

        1. Kiss andTales profile image22
          Kiss andTalesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          But who gave your parents life. And the people before that. The God I worship is the one who created all things . A mythical god has no purpose ,no reason to concern for the human race .mythical has no records of actions or history recorded for our human life. But the God I worship gives history, details, times, history in our libraries on the many kings , and rulers,we know Jews are not Mythical. Nor are their celebrations and sabbaths . Your reason for denying any truth of this lies with you.

          1. wilderness profile image96
            wildernessposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            Their parents.  And their parents before them.  And, of course, the next question from my side of the table is who gave your god life?

            Your claim that your god created all things is just that - a claim - and without substance or support.  Nor does your god give history, details or anything else - those things come from men, men that sang the songs and wrote the books of those histories and details.  That they believed in mythological creatures as they did so is irrelevant; they are still men, still writing the histories. 

            A myth, though, very often has purpose(s).  It can be to maintain power for the shamans.  It can be to provide comfort that death doesn't happen.  It can be to provide a reason to attack or enslave another people.  It can be many things, and has been all of them through history.

            1. Kiss andTales profile image22
              Kiss andTalesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              It does not matter ,because you can not see the logic and Truth before your eyes. The earth, the sun ,the moon stand in a position for our needs .they are in a perfect positions. Not one of them to close or to far. Or we as humans could not survive this planet. Just like your thermo on your home you turn it up or down you control the temp for your convenience. It does nothing on its own. Our human body witness a grand creator has order. That all things works to gather to allow the body to function. Yet people believe in man made things with so little brain power. 10 % when our creator has a fast power house of perfection. Using more power then we will ever know. If you could control one thing ,like the moon,the sun  the rain, if you could tell me how you could add an extra day to a life. Then you would make sense. But you do not.

              1. EncephaloiDead profile image60
                EncephaloiDeadposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                Sorry, but the moon used to be much closer, but is constantly moving away from the Earth and will eventually leave it's orbit. It is not placed perfectly at all.

                The Earth has areas in which humans starve to death because they can't grow food, too hot or too cold, how is that a perfect position?

                1. Prodio profile image60
                  Prodioposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  Glad to see you here (being able) to present that very argument.

            2. Joshua-C-Rarrick profile image61
              Joshua-C-Rarrickposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              In the beginning was the Word. And the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1
              I am the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End... Revelation 22:13



              God has told you all along who created Him. It has been explained to you that He always was and always will be. However, you will not see this, because you have decided you are much more intelligent than your creator.

              Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools. Romans 1:22

              You see, I debate with you, not with my knowledge, or simply the knowledge of the theory of Evolution (less than 300 years worth of knowledge). I debate you with more than 5,000 years worth of written, documented, and historically accurate work. I debate you with a power far greater than anything my tiny brain could muster. I give you truth.

              You see, to live in ignorance is sad. To know the truth and continue to live as if it were not so is just stupid.

    5. Chris Neal profile image83
      Chris Nealposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Well, God exists, and man feels drawn to God, and man feels a need to understand God.

      So, yes. Religions need to exist.

  2. Joshua-C-Rarrick profile image61
    Joshua-C-Rarrickposted 2 years ago

    I have a couple of points to debate here. First, I agree with what you said about religion having a useful and valid purpose. It does provide millions of people with comfort.

    The main point I would like to make is that religion IS the moral compass for ALL of society. Every law we have is rooted in religion. This would mean that religion is indeed necessary to the world. Morality and right and wrong stem from religious beliefs.

    Secondly, you noted that it is a "moral guide for those that cannot build their own"... If we all designed our own form of right and wrong, we would descend into anarchy. Some people would feel that cannibalism is right, therefore, since there is no moral law against it in their mind, they will practice it. Who would have the right to set up laws and rules? After all, my views are different than yours. Without religion to provide an absolute of what right and wrong is, then you lose all integrity to the law.

    1. wilderness profile image96
      wildernessposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      I assume you are a proponent of Sharia Law then?  It stems directly from religious morals, and so must be right and proper?

      Religion is indeed at the root of most (MOST) of our moral structure.  Which is a problem, because religious morals aren't very good and in some cases are downright evil.  The Christian god (let alone the Muslim one) is not particularly noted for it's morality stance on altogether too many issues.  Things like slavery, womens rights, homosexuality, and even support for the Golden Rule (accepted nearly world wide) is ignored by religious morals; what matters far more is conversion of non-believers.

      1. Joshua-C-Rarrick profile image61
        Joshua-C-Rarrickposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        No, I am not a supporter of Sharia law. The very tenets of it suggest supreme dictatorship be given to one man.

        Your points of the Christian God standing against things like women's rights, homosexuality, slavery, and the Golden Rule are a bit off base I think.

        The Bible has no command that women should be suppressed. In fact, just the opposite is taught. Women should be held with more respect and esteemed higher than men.

        Slavery is not condoned in the Bible, although some instances of slavery are recorded in the Old and New Testaments. George Washington owned slaves, but that does not make it morally right.

        Homosexuality....need I debate this point? This one makes people angry.... it's wrong. Bottom line. It is completely unnatural. You're not "born that way." It is a lifestyle choice just as much as drug addiction. It goes against nature, and does NOTHING to increase the morality, integrity, or education of a society. In fact, if you study it out, it can lead to the complete degradation of a nation.


        MOST of our moral structure does not come from religion. ALL of it does. Without an absolute source of what is right and what is wrong, society falls apart and we descend into anarchy. You cannot say "homosexuality is right because I think it's ok." What gives you the right to determine that? On the flip side, "you can not say homosexuality is wrong because I think it's bad." Again you have no right. However...if you are the Creator of the Universe...you can say anything you want to. You can also pass that teaching on to man in any form you so desire...be it tablets of stone with laws written on them, or a book passed down from generation to generation since the beginning of time giving the story of how man came to be in the world. Whether you believe in God or not, whether you subscribe to ANY religion or not, you can not deny that the very existence of a Supreme Being (GOD) is absolutely necessary to this world. Without Him, there is no such thing as right and wrong and society as we know it crumbles.

        1. wilderness profile image96
          wildernessposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          In other words, the morality of Islam is false.  But the morality of YOUR religion is true, and we can tell which is which because you believe in one but not the other.



          1st Corinthians 14:34 gives the lie to the bible seeing women as equal to men.  Slavery was not only condoned in the bible, but explicit instructions to take slaves and how to treat them are available in that mass of immoral writings.  Check your OT for further information.

          I understand your comments about homosexuality; they are the only way Christian instructions to murder gays can be seen as moral.  But most of us know better now - those instructions are just more immoral crap from a god with no morals at all.  Rather than homosexuality leading to the degradation of a nation, it is the unethical actions of the religious, demanding that everyone accept THEIR god and THEIR way of life that degrades society.  It happens every time religion has the power to make the laws.




          What gives me the right to decide on homosexuality?  The Golden Rule, just as given in your scripture.  The rule the religious so conveniently forget about, that requires they treat others as they would like to be treated.  Not as some lower form of life, intrinsically evil because they don't believe in your imaginary friend in the sky but as a person just as the religious are, with the same rights and feelings.

          And finally, I would certainly be interested in seeing your proof that the existence of another universe with a god in it is "absolutely necessary" to this one.  If you think that your pretend god is necessary for society, consider that the large majority of societies throughout history never heard of your god, and got along just fine and for far longer than this one has.  The morals of cultures long before your specific religion were, in many cases, at least as good as yours.  Christianity does not, as we've seen here, have a very good record in this regard; rather it is drug kicking and screaming into the future and forced to change it's ethics and morals to stay afloat in a maturing and growing society.

          1. Joshua-C-Rarrick profile image61
            Joshua-C-Rarrickposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            It is not about the morality of Islam...it is about morality period....

            Where did right and wrong originate? Who decides what it right for mankind? Why should anyone have the right to tell another human they are wrong?

            Answer these questions. I dare you to prove to me without ANY reasonable doubt that man designed right and wrong. You can not choose what is right and wrong based on social acceptance, else the cannibals who still exist in the remote areas would be completely justified in needlessly hunting and killing one another. Right and wrong MUST be absolute, and because of this they have to come from a higher intelligence than that of a human being, as ALL humans are imperfect.

            Again, I say religion is a necessary part of society to help balance out those who would live off the backs of others. It is necessary for much of society to believe in something greater than themselves, else we would fall into despair. If the daily grind, and working like a dog till you're no longer able to work is all there is, then why not end it now? What's the point of leading a long life if there is nothing at the end to look forward to. No, I don't understand how someone with no faith in anything survives in the world we live in. It must be a sad and lonely existence.

            1. EncephaloiDead profile image60
              EncephaloiDeadposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              Leading a long life and what someone does with their lives IS the point.



              It isn't a sad and lonely existence, quite the contrary. Of course, you would have to show us that your existence consists more of just a single book of myths and superstitions?

              1. Kiss andTales profile image22
                Kiss andTalesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                Myths and superstition is your outlook. But history books and found relics are proof enough. A nation of people you can not wipe out like hitler tried but could not. Stands as as a witness today of God Almighty. The Jewish nation known then as Israel.  The rainbow is not a myth .we see this all the time.
                The sun moon and stars. They work faithful on time. A baby born actually at 9 months imperfection will cause a difference .there is proof all around .many just do not want it.

                1. EncephaloiDead profile image60
                  EncephaloiDeadposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  Proof enough of what? They are only proof that men are capable of writing books and making relics. So what?



                  Random phrases and words strung together don't make an argument. smile

                  1. Kiss andTales profile image22
                    Kiss andTalesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    This not for argument. Men were used as penman. Like secretaries . And that is all . Who could know the details of heaven ,only the Angels, who would know a war broke out there. Only the Angels. We are only limited to the earth as humans. Man could not know details unless they were told.

                  2. Prodio profile image60
                    Prodioposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    Thank you for establishing that as a fact.

                2. 0
                  Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  Did you just say that God came to the rescue of the Jews during WW2? Are you really saying that they were not all exterminated because they are God's chosen people?

                  1. Kiss andTales profile image22
                    Kiss andTalesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    I am saying their name and history ties into the True God ,And you said the rest.

              2. Prodio profile image60
                Prodioposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                What about this:



                "Sorry, but the moon used to be much closer, but is constantly moving away from the Earth and will eventually leave it's orbit. It is not placed perfectly at all.

                The Earth has areas in which humans starve to death because they can't grow food, too hot or too cold, how is that a perfect position?"

                http://hubpages.com/forum/post/2606534



                ["It isn't a sad and lonely existence, quite the contrary ."]

                1. Kiss andTales profile image22
                  Kiss andTalesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  Again man has caused all the problems here with their nuclear arms, testing sites polluting our water source. Putting holes in the ozones sending things in space. If you are going to tell the story tell it all. Do not leave out why we have a problem . Our food and or soil is contaminated. We can not eat safely because of human rulership.

                  1. Prodio profile image60
                    Prodioposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    Almost (every) human problem is a spiritual problem.


                    On the surface - 'environmental degradation', water pollution, failures in education-system, unemployment etc: all these problems may seem to be physical problems. But the roots of these problems are spiritual.

            2. EncephaloiDead profile image60
              EncephaloiDeadposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              In the minds of men.



              Mankind decides.



              Why shouldn't the have that right?



              There are no other beings on Earth capable of "designing right and wrong" so it must have been men who did that. Can you actually show any other beings did that?



              Cannibalism is based on religious ritual.



              Sorry, but your belief is not fact. You nor anyone else has ever shown the existence of a higher intelligence.



              And yet, many of the religious live off the backs of others. Can we say, "Vatican"?



              Sorry, but that is patently false. Many non-believers are quite happy and lead good, honest, fulfilling lives.

              1. Kiss andTales profile image22
                Kiss andTalesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                Religion is passed along like counterfeit money. It has changed in many forms through history. Caused many wars, and hatred. Why. Because people do not want the truth. They want to create their own comfort of religion. But what people do not see is people think they pick God.
                Really God picks you. There was one arch built for the flood. There is still one truth of faith present he uses. If you want it he will let you find him. If you desire something else you will find that.

                1. EncephaloiDead profile image60
                  EncephaloiDeadposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  Because religions teaches good people to do bad things. smile

                  1. Sed-me profile image83
                    Sed-meposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    Love your neighbor as yourself.
                    Do not do bad to those who persecute you, instead pray for them.
                    Give to the poor, the widow the orphan and visit those in prison.
                    Blessed are the peacemakers.
                    Forgive as you have been forgiven.

                    I have to disagree with you here based on these precepts.

                  2. Kiss andTales profile image22
                    Kiss andTalesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    humans being born through Adam and Eve they could not be perfect. Like a pie pan with a dent. Every cake made would have the same imperfect mark.  Our genes carried that imperfect mark also of our parents . that is why humans die. God has worked out a cure for us. Not all will benifit based on accepting the truth.

                  3. Kiss andTales profile image22
                    Kiss andTalesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    Religion can be what you make it.  Even people worship satan knowingly and hidden behind entertainment ,in music ,movies, games. The world of many people are walking by the groves on paths that have no future for life. We exist now because a cure was given in our behalf. Example  you have people that need organ transplants ,they need a cure a donor ,if the donor knew the person would not appreciate his gift that would save his life,  Would he give so freely a part of himself. There are many people that love and appreciate what God almighty has done for us ,by providing us a future ,and a second chance of life if we were to die , the cure  will be fully administered when wickedness is behind us.  So when people say there is no true God They close the door on their own blessings and future .

              2. Prodio profile image60
                Prodioposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                Thank you for sharing your beliefs.

                1. Kiss andTales profile image22
                  Kiss andTalesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  You are welcome . It is always a great privileged and honor to speak the truth.  And I thank many for their answers as well not to be argumentative.

        2. EncephaloiDead profile image60
          EncephaloiDeadposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Thank for providing such a wonderful contradiction, a great example of how religious conflicts and wars get started. Excellent. smile

        3. EncephaloiDead profile image60
          EncephaloiDeadposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Exactly, and when you provide such an excellent example of the hypocrisy of your religion, we can see how that manifests itself in the hatred of others, making you angry and compelling you to make up things that are demonstrably false. This shows in spades the lack of morals your religion teaches and how it actually doesn't allow others to have the same rights as you, because as you stated, you can say anything you want to...
          smile

        4. 0
          Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          That's exactly what the biblical laws suggest. See below "However...if you are the Creator of the Universe...you can say anything you want to."

          I suspect you haven't read the OT then, It's littered with ways to keep and beat slaves, who and when you can keep slaves. It's also littered with ways to disrespect women. Right from the very beginning when God couldn't find a mate for Adam amounts the animals so he eventually made a women from his rib.

          Unnatural? It happens in 10% of all mammals, all all these mammals making an unnatural lifestyle choice? LOL


          We are perfectly capable of deciding what is right or wrong for us humans. The problem is the biblical laws don't appear to come from someone with superior morals of what is right or wrong for humans, they appear to come from a source that thinks it knows what is right or wrong for a male slave owner.

          1. Kiss andTales profile image22
            Kiss andTalesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            If you could make a life which you can not ,you can have a part in bringing life to the earth. If you could stop death, no you can only watch this happen with no control ,if you could make every seed be a seed to grow enough food for the planet to feed many ,no you go buy or use another plant, you can never do what God can do. Yet you who are in the same situation as all humans can say what God can and can not do. When you can raise a dead person to life . then you have my ear. But for now your words are empty.

            1. 0
              Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              So far all God's powers are stories. When Adam and Eve at the fruit it open there eyes to good and evil (as the story goes). In other words we are capable of knowing good from evil.

          2. Kiss andTales profile image22
            Kiss andTalesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            If there were perfect people here you would not be writing on hub pages. You would be doing perfect things. If you get sick, have a cold, get body bumps, or even eat the food here on earth now that is contaminated by man being imperfect . You are not perfect, you make mistakes. Even in your speech . The wrong word you applied is that we are perfect. No we all are not. That is why you have ancestors. And you are aging. Proof

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              Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              Being perfectly capable is not the same as saying we are perfect. You must know this unless English is not your first language.

              1. Kiss andTales profile image22
                Kiss andTalesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                Perfect is what we are talking about in everything. You are not. And so is your judgments wrong.

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                  Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  Is your judgment of my judgment suddenly right? Is all you have to say from all of what I've said that I'm wrong?

                  1. Kiss andTales profile image22
                    Kiss andTalesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    Yes because your accounts of your bible story is not correct. And you are making judgments from a story told wrong. This is not acceptable. Even in a court of law . Tell the truth not a lie.

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      mbuggiehposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      When we say "every" and "all" we are quickly proven wrong.

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      mbuggiehposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      And no, religion is not the "moral compass" of all of society.

      And no, our laws (in the US at least) are not all based on some religion or some biblical text.

      if US law was based on Biblical law, things would be very different in the United States.

      For starters:

      No constitution; no Bill of Rights.

      No right to vote for women.

      No stores open on Sunday.

      No shellfish.

      No haircuts for women.

      This list goes on and on and on.

      1. Joshua-C-Rarrick profile image61
        Joshua-C-Rarrickposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        You should probably study your history a little better. Even Washington, our first president, acknowledged God as his mainstay for leadership. America was founded BY CHRISTIANS in 1620, when the Puritans landed on Plymouth Rock. The United States Constitution was drawn up by a group of men who were largely professing CHRISTIANS.

        It is impossible to argue logic if you will not accept facts.

        1. wilderness profile image96
          wildernessposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          You might read up on your own history. 

          Check the history of Merry Mount, Mass.  A settlement near the Puritans, that suffered considerably under Puritan persecution.

          And the history and reasons for Jamestown Landing in 1607, the first settlement in Virginia.  It was based on a combination of business and penal colony, and while religion was present it was not a reason for settling in the new world.  Religion was, in fact, a side issue to making money.

          Nor was St. Augustine, 1565 and the first new world settlement, a religions venture.  Like Jamestown it was a business proposition, with religion coming in a distant second.

          With the exception of the Puritans, nearly all of the early settlements were about making money.  The financiers of those settlements didn't care about spread God's word; they cared about a return on their investment.

          1. Kiss andTales profile image22
            Kiss andTalesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            You are talking about imperfect people. And their actions. I am talking about things man can see and not touch ,or control and yet we benefit  as humans. I am talking about the one who made the heart to  beat repeatedly with each breath. When we are asleep . Or what ever we are doing it keeps on ticking like a clock with out our control. I am talking about DNA a mans real  program telling or sending messages to other parts of the body just so. God uses what he pleases . If he wanted to use men as secretaries why not?  Men use men to do the same thing. So that is still not a valid excuse.

            1. Joshua-C-Rarrick profile image61
              Joshua-C-Rarrickposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              +1

        2. EncephaloiDead profile image60
          EncephaloiDeadposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          The United States Constitution was drawn up by a group of men who largely grew beards, too. smile

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      Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      No, we'd have a secular society much or exactly like we do now. However if you do want to know what a none secular society is like you should take a trip to Manbij, which is currently controlled by ISIS, where they crucify individuals for apostasy and cut of the hands of thieves and publicly flog people for listening to music or smoking cigarettes.

      BTW, Is it because of some religious text that you don't eat other people, cause I don't remember anything about that in the bible and I still don't eat people?

      1. Joshua-C-Rarrick profile image61
        Joshua-C-Rarrickposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        I beg to differ with you. How bad would it be if in our society we were to cut off the hands of those who steal? I would be willing to bet the crime rate would go down. In Singapore, one of the most lavish standards of living in the world is enjoyed, and with a VERY LOW crime rate. Why? Because punishment for wrongdoing is swift and severe. Spit on the sidewalk? Pay a fine. Vandalize someone's vehicle? Public caning... Just saying there is NOTHING wrong with a justice system that acts swiftly and fiercely when something wrong is done.

        Secondly, you are right...the Bible does NOT say "thou shalt not eat the flesh of thy neighbor." However, it does say "Thou shalt not kill." To eat someone it makes sense that you would have to kill him. Well, now, we find ourselves in a pickle don't we? The Bible never commands us NOT to eat one another. But in every instance where cannibalism is mentioned in the Bible it is cast in a  very negative light and is ALWAYS talking about a time when a nation or city was under siege.


        Think a little deeper on this topic. Your arguments for not doing something ARE in fact supported in the Bible.

        1. gmwilliams profile image85
          gmwilliamsposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Yes, Singapore does have some STRINGENT punishments.  Such punishments do act as a deterrent and does explain why the crime rate is extremely low there.   Also, Singapore is one of the cleanest cities on the planet.   You have made some good points here, Joshua.  Continue the discussion. Just inspired me to do a future thread is to the need for more stringent punishments for crime and as a deterrent to crime.

          1. Joshua-C-Rarrick profile image61
            Joshua-C-Rarrickposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            +1

            1. gmwilliams profile image85
              gmwilliamsposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              America is the way it is and is becoming worse because there are not enough stringent laws in place.   With the increasing liberalization of America, people are disrespecting this wondrous country and feel that they can do what they want without consequences.   Well, Obama is setting this tone for America and unless America wakes up and learn accountability and responsibility, it will worsen to a point of no return.  Again, you have made some excellent points, Joshua.  This America is a VASTLY DIFFERENT America from which I grew up in.  Thought that America would be MUCH BETTER in the 21st century but it has gotten WORSE.  Can't believe it at all!

              1. Joshua-C-Rarrick profile image61
                Joshua-C-Rarrickposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                +1


                Take me back to the 80s where the biggest worry you had as a parent was that your kid might get spanked by ALL the neighbors...not that you might get jailed for spanking your kid.

                1. gmwilliams profile image85
                  gmwilliamsposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  Sadly, we have so many worries now.  America is about to go under with this "administration."   There's Obama"care" and the influx of illegals.   I am for immigration as long as the immigrants have skills that contribute positively to the enhancement of America.  Sadly, these illegals have NO contributable skills.  Our social systems are going to be exhausted and it is OUR tax dollars paying for this.   There are Americans who need help; oh no, they aren't as important as the illegals.  Obama is putting America under the bus.   America is doomed.  Well, it was nice talking to you and have a Blessed Night. I am off to bed now.

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                Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                Perhaps the problem is America has not changed much at all while other countries have. Still the same gun laws, still the same education funding system (I think), still the same lack of universal health care. Seems some of you want to back to beating other's children though?

                1. wilderness profile image96
                  wildernessposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  Yes and no.  A continual effort to get guns out of the hands of private citizens has shown results; many cities do not allow guns at all and licensing requirements continue to strengthen all the time.  Education is primarily funded the same way, but with continually larger subsidies from the federal government.  Let someone in another state pay for our schools, but the price is to accede to methodologies the feds require.  Which are mostly political BS, not teaching.

                  But yes, we still expect people to support themselves as far as health care goes.  Recent changes greatly benefit the insurance companies, but few others, so we still stand on our own feet there.

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          Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          It's funny how the bible says you shouldn't kill, unless I command you to. For instance it says you shouldn't kill, unless of course it's found out that a girl is not a virgin on her wedding night. Now, we both no there is no way to really know that and we both know there is a double standard in front of us, however if it gets men what they want then we should suppose that's okay.

          Should we also kill our disobedient children?

          1. Kiss andTales profile image22
            Kiss andTalesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            The first killing in history of man was Satan killing all humans God gave life to. He meant for us all to live forever. Like the tree's that live thousands of years old and animals that live hundreds. We were in charge of them all. The point that Satan called God a liar is what started killing in the first place. He said man would not die if they became dependent of the one one who created everything. So what happen . The first two set of people listen to the voice of Satan .the man killer. Now everyone can die no matter who is born. The first killing Cain killing his brother Abel. For God is the God of the living .he gives life. Satan has always taken it away by being a rebel. We do not exist because of Satan ,but We exist because of the mercy of The living God Jehovah.  If killing is recorded in the bible then God is certainly not hiding his reasons or purpose for he has the right to do as he please. We do not .He certainly did not hide the works of satan. Who makes people think they are perfect and right . Far from the truth.

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              Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              You may want to read that story over. As the story goes (and it is a story) God created Adam alone, then when he couldn't find a suitable playmate among animals he made Eve. When they ate the fruit, God punished them with death, gave them 120 years and yet they lived for 1000's he also punish women with childbirth as he never intended more humans to be made. He never intended them to have children or multiply as he didn't them them to do that until later.

              Eve's punishment was to give birth to children and to be ruled over by her husband.
              Adam's punishment was to work had in the fields.

              1. Kiss andTales profile image22
                Kiss andTalesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                Your imperfection does not read or tell the story right. And you your imperfection left out the main character .The snake ( Satan) who told Eve that she would not die for eating,and her eyes would be open. There was no problem before that happened ,they were in paradise and happy with no shame.
                Your years are wrong. Adam lived to be 930 years. Not over 1000. Again no perfection here .

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                  Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  I left out Satan to see if you would being him into the story as to pass the buck and you did. Eve blamed Satan, Adam blamed Eve. No one took the blame. So we have a story from a tribe of people who claim they were descendants of fallen Gods and therefore entitled to land.

                  BTW, do you believe this to be a true factual story? Because what we know from science contradicts the story.

                  1. Kiss andTales profile image22
                    Kiss andTalesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    Science of man has it flaws. Example the earth was said to be flat by scientist. Yet it is written in the bible at Reference Bible Isa 40:22
                    There is One who is dwelling above the circle of the earth,the dwellers in which are as grasshoppers, the One who is stretching out the heavens just as a fine gauze, who spreads them out like a tent in which to dwell,

                    Here it is very clear the earth is round.
                    There are other discoveries as we speak . Look how long it took them to find out about our DNA . Now many have been released from prison due to the finger printing in DNA. To show people did not really do the crime. Again man's imperfections destroying innocent life's.

                    Science only proves God is powerful and wonderful through mans search for answers. The Bible tells us about health, how to stay clean physically and Mentally.  Many times instructions in the bible has saved many lives.

  3. Kiss andTales profile image22
    Kiss andTalesposted 2 years ago

    We are living ,we are surviving despite what man has done to our planet. Again you are telling what humans have done to our beautiful planet. God gave it to us to live and make it a global paradise . Humans distort the purpose.

    1. EncephaloiDead profile image60
      EncephaloiDeadposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Correct me if I'm wrong here, but hasn't the planet been ruled by the religious mindset for many centuries? Shouldn't we be putting the blame where it is due?

      1. Kiss andTales profile image22
        Kiss andTalesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        This planet has been ruled by Satan ,he challenged God's right to rule his own creations. He said we did not need God to decide what was bad and good. So Adam and Eve followed that voice of their God Satan. But the problem was all the seeds of the human race was still in Adams when they had done wrong. Their sentencing was that they would die forever . But their children would carry the mark of imperfection they passed down . Mean time the challenge was and still in enforced. Who is right? Who is wrong? The point is now we are not in paradise. People still get sick. And die, crime, pollution, unhappiness is so real ,and people think money can change it all. No! Money is a form used by satan to control many people. Money again will lose value .

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      Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Actually, the earth is not in a perfect spot in it's orbit, as our imperfect fast burning sun heats up it heats up the earth and the earth will eventually be uninhabitable. Now if the earth was placed around a much more abundant smaller, slower burning star, we could have been here nine billion years ago and would continue to be here long after our sun engulfs our earth.

      We are in fact not the centre of the universe.

  4. Kiss andTales profile image22
    Kiss andTalesposted 2 years ago

    I do agree with you . From the very beginning it was spiritual . Can we really live and be dependent of our God and creator. Satan challenged God and and his right to give us a happy home. And happy life of good health, real love, and a paradise earth.
    Now we live and see what Adam and Eve bargain for .sickness  ,death,  unhappiness
    Birth defects, people ruining the earth, sexual diseases .you name it we have it. Soon to be a thing of the past as God has stated.

    1. Prodio profile image60
      Prodioposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      It is difficult to purify a consciousness - which has been already 'contaminated'.

  5. Kiss andTales profile image22
    Kiss andTalesposted 2 years ago

    Like there is no you.

  6. Kiss andTales profile image22
    Kiss andTalesposted 2 years ago

    Ancestors that recognize God's word. Many family members are written in the bible as a family tree. Right and wrong that you believe in as you use and state also is in God's word rather you accept that or not. And I am not talking under the title of Christianity, or Jewish. To tell the truth is the law of God. You can not get around it no matter what you say.

    1. wilderness profile image96
      wildernessposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Really?  You're now claiming that people indigenous to the Americas at the time of Christ recognized your god's word?  Or the aborigines in Australia before the first European landed there?  The Chinese at, say, 10,000 years ago?  The people that made the cave drawings?  I don't think so.

      Sorry, I don't persecute gays or stone children for disobedience.  I don't keep slaves so have no need to know the "right" way to beat them.  All these wondrous "rights" from the Christian god are absolute garbage as far as I'm concerned; they are as wrong as they can be and I don't need a priest or another god to tell me that what the Christian considers "right" is just so much baloney.

      If telling the truth was the law of God people wouldn't claim to know He exists, for no such knowledge is available anywhere in the world.  One day, maybe, we'll find Him strolling down the street, but it hasn't happened yet.

  7. Kiss andTales profile image22
    Kiss andTalesposted 2 years ago

    You did not live that far back. Since you do not believe in the law of the lie. Then anyone can tell you lies in history. nothing anyone says is right with you. And so that could be both ways ,there is no need in listening to you .

 
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