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How can we explain Paranormal phenomenon through Science?

  1. countrywomen profile image59
    countrywomenposted 8 years ago

    Yesterday I finished our milestone and wanted to relax a bit. And then we randomly ended up having a discussion about Paranormal phenomena. My husband suggested me to watch Stigmata (which he has seen earlier). It was a little scary to watch (I couldn't sleep properly last night). Anyway my question is when we are evolving so many technologies and techniques to observe and understand the things around us and now what is science doing or will do in the future to explain these unusual occurrences?

    1) Stigmata (Where even physical symptoms are left on the body and supposed to be "true" incidents where Jesus Crucifixion is replicated on those people).
    2) Exorcism (Where some places or people are "haunted/possessed")
    3) Past life regression (Where some people seem to "remember" incidents from past lives)

    I have seen some instruments in TV once which are used to measure the energy fields in the haunted places. But for those which are psychological(mental) then are we close to examine those people's brain(waves) accurately to figure out whether it is due to some inherent problem or some paranormal occurrence. I am agnostic hence I neither confirm nor deny the existence of paranormal phenomena like ghosts although I have not encountered any experience (except one brief moment after my grandfather died I felt him kiss on my forehead which still gives me the chills). When I was learning Reiki/Pranic healing then there was a concept of energy fields (and as per Kirlian photographs such energies are supposed to have different colors). I don't buy the argument that religion begins where science ends as an answer to my question. I believe science doesn't move from falsehood to truth but constantly continues to evolve from lesser truth to greater truth.  I am not really aware of the scientific advances in the paranormal field and if somebody can enlighten me on this then I would be somewhat satisfied with so many questions in my mind without any definite answers.

    PS: Religious quotes don't convince me one way or the other and here I am seeking scientific approach to these rare unusual phenomenon smile

    1. Sufidreamer profile image79
      Sufidreamerposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Hi CW - Hope that life is going well smile

      1) As far as I am aware, there is no record of anybody displaying stigmata under anything like laboratory conditions or in front of independent observers. At the moment, the belief is that the wounds are self-inflicted and a result of sleight of hand.

      2) At the moment, psychiatrists believe that most instances of possession are psychiatric problems. There is no evidence that there is anything supernatural going on.

      3) The evidence suggests that PLR is a mixture of suggestion and false memory, with little evidence of reincarnation.

      So, at the moment, the scientific community believes that the above do not exist, and has not bothered to do much research. One of the few areas where there have been attempts at genuine research is ESP, with no proof of anything, yet.

      However, this is not the same as saying that they do not exist, only that there is no good quality evidence as yet. I am pretty agnostic about the whole thing, too.

      1. countrywomen profile image59
        countrywomenposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        Sufi,

        I am doing well. I was way too tired yesterday our senior manager took us all out for bowling and then we went to another place had pizza (while some of the guys were getting drunk but not on ouzzo). wink We really had fun at the office(morning no work and afternoon bowling/hanging out) and also had an interesting discussion slightly related to crucifixion.  smile

        Btw fantastic response and I believe ESP has been proven to exist in some people hence whether it is still considered paranormal, I am not sure? Nice to see such a good response from so many smile

    2. mohitmisra profile image59
      mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Some still do not accept that Kirlian photography shows the aura.

      1. Mark Knowles profile image61
        Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        That is because some of us understand Kirlian photography wink

        1. mohitmisra profile image59
          mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          wink its been debated since the beginning.I'm beginning to think you are one of the nicest people on this forum I guess it will take others time to understand you smile

          1. Mark Knowles profile image61
            Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            No it hasn't. If you understood it - you would know why. wink

            1. mohitmisra profile image59
              mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              Truth is I really don't.Have seen auras but don't know if its the same as the kirlian photography. smile Have done course in pranic healing and and at the end of the week I could see the aura around a person but it was white.

              1. Mark Knowles profile image61
                Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                I believe that some people can see auras. I have personal experience of people doing a reasonably good job of assessing people's current mind state. Whether this is just a matter of correctly interpreting other factors such as posture, facial expression etc and "seeing" the aura is another question. I have never been able to see them myself, although I am pretty good at assessing people's mind state from the other physical things I mentioned.

                Kirlian photography is not the same thing as aura photography. Which is a scam.

                It works by passing a high voltage electrical current through something while said something is resting on a piece of film. The resulting aura is actually an electrical corona which has an effect on the silver-halide dye couplers in photographic film. Pretty much anything that conducts electricity will produce this effect. Dead or alive smile

                1. mohitmisra profile image59
                  mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                  Okay thanks for the explanation that's what I read but not with such detailed technicality . Its easy seeing auras its a question of practicing and the way you look. You cannot concentrate on the person but should look around him, it happens with time. I just see a hazy white around them and not details like some do.Look around 1 to 2 inches from the body there is one auara and the another one this can be a few feet fro the body ,have been able to see the first one only.This pranic healing was class of around fifteen and all of us could see the auras at the end of the week, some even on their very first day. smile
                  Then I had an  experience on the ship where I could see the most beautiful light coming out of every object, the television, the sofa everything and it was beautiful and surprisingly alive smile
                  You do have a good judgment on people, that I have seen here on this forum. smile

                2. profile image0
                  pgrundyposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                  I sometimes get 'hits' of information about people when I meet them in the form of images, not words. Some people would call this having a vivid imagination, others would call it clairvoyance, but I personally think comes from learning to read subtle body and facial cues from a very young age. It is something that seems to be passed down on the female side of our family, and usually the information is accurate and the kind of thing you wouldn't expect a stranger to know--Still, I think we all do this to some degree but discount it. Visual and emotional processing of information precedes language developmentally, so I think there is a theoretical foundation for studying it, but I don't know that anyone has.

                  If you look at psychics (not the totally bogus ones, but people who seem to come up with this kind of 'how did you know that?') info, you find that they disproportionately come from troubled backgrounds where their survival depended on 'reading' subtle cues this way.

                  1. mohitmisra profile image59
                    mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clairvoyance
                    The term Clairvoyance (from 17th century French with clair meaning "clear" and voyance meaning " vision") is used to refer to the ability to gain information about an object, person, location or physical event through means other than the known human senses,[1][2] a form of extra-sensory perception. A person said to have the ability of clairvoyance is referred to as a clairvoyant ("one who sees clearly").
                    Then science has recently realize that the brain is calculating faster than what was thought.Read this recently in the papers. "smile

    3. profile image0
      Writer Riderposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      The paranormal does exist but I believe it's all tied in with science. That is we assume such occurences are weird because we've never experienced them ourselves (except you when your grandfather died)so we assume it is paranormal or "beyond-normal (literal translation)" when it's, in fact, normal but it's considered "paranormal" due to the relatively few people have experienced seeing ghost or relatives who visit us when they die. Which means, if true, ghosts are an indicator that we never really die.

      1. Jewels profile image81
        Jewelsposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        I'm one of a group of around 300 who map consciousness and what is seen to be abnormal to most, is not to those that see it.  And when the majority have the ability to see, it is normal, as you say Writer Rider.  But it will take more than this relatively small group.  But it is at least being transcribed and completely documented.

  2. profile image0
    sandra rinckposted 8 years ago

    Hi CW, hope you are doing well too. smile

    I was reading this article once about past lives.  It said, in short; why would a person be naturally afraid of fire?

    We know that fire hurts, burns etc... but the underlying theory concerning past lives is that it is possible that our memories are being inherited, such as the fear of fire, water, earthquakes.

    It wouldn't make much sense that a baby be naturally terrified of fire when the subject has not even encountered fire.  So is it reincarnation or are parts of our memories being inherited from our ancestors? 

    As for stigmata. 

    Scientist use to say that we use only 10% of our brains but now they are saying that we use all of our brain. 

    I think that it is possible for stigmata to naturally occur however it might be that the phenomenon part is not external phenomenon but internal, self inflicted stigmata in which case the subject doesn't even know they have done it to themselves.

    -sorta in the same way people make themselves ill by depression, they aren't physically sick but can make themselves physically sick-

    This leaves me with the question about the human capacity to display "phenomenon" type miracles such as telekinesis, levitation, or some sort of psychosis.  Though the word psychosis has a negative stigma attached to it, I don't think it should be viewed this way.

    1. countrywomen profile image59
      countrywomenposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Sandra- I am doing very well. Thanks for asking. smile As for stigmata I am not sure whether I am totally convinced that it is self inflicted. St.Francis of Assisi who is a renowned saint experienced this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stigmata

      But as Sufi has said such things don't happen in laboratory conditions hence difficult to rule out anything. And also all the other things like levitation, telekinesis and all have been mentioned in Yoga to be special powers which great enlightened masters after years of practice attain. Although I haven't seen any such powers but having read about it a little can't dispute that such things may happen but at the same time for every genuine case there would be about 100 fake cases which ends up making me highly skeptical. smile

  3. Sufidreamer profile image79
    Sufidreamerposted 8 years ago

    Hi Sandy

    Some excellent points, as always. Certainly, there are many strange things that happen in the universe, and I have seen a few things with my own eyes that I have no rational explanation for, although the search continues.

    I think that the division is key here - there is no scientific evidence for any of these things, but that is not the same as saying that they do not exist.

    Personally, I share CW's agnosticism - I am extremely sceptical about most of these things, but leave the door open smile

    1. profile image0
      sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      me too. smile

  4. GeneriqueMedia profile image61
    GeneriqueMediaposted 8 years ago

    1. I agree with Sulfi, I've not seen a laboratory testing on this issue.

    2. I'm also inclined to agree with Sulfi here, as well, however..there have been many cases and the Catholic Church as well as many other sects and religions have stringent rules and the likes to actually go and do an exorcism. I'm inclined to believe they're real, myself.

    3. Past lives are a hot button issue, but in my eyes they've been sufficiently already tested and explained by science. Result: they're real.

    You've got kids with scars where their claimed "past life" was killed by, kids dragging their parents to far away villages and walking into a house like they've always lived there...and lets not forget past life regressions.

    The CIA as well as Russia during the Cold War setup "psychic warrior" training camps. By the CIA's account, it didn't work so well. But Russia has a different story, and so do many of the people on the inside of the American front. I tend to believe in remote viewing and astral projection, and I don't think it's a scientific mystery at all.

    We live in a world of 10 dimensions.

    G|M

    1. Sufidreamer profile image79
      Sufidreamerposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Totally wrong - it is 17, and one of them opens right underneath my house. It is the only logical explanation for why my bottles of Ouzo empty so quickly.

      1. GeneriqueMedia profile image61
        GeneriqueMediaposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        Haha. ;D

        I'm only aware of the ten..and the hypothetical eleventh. After ten...there's really not much more room to grow. My brain hurts after about the eighth, to start.

      2. profile image0
        sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        No, it's 23. Gosh!! big_smile

        1. Sufidreamer profile image79
          Sufidreamerposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          You are right - I forgot about the dimension that the missing socks go to. Also the one that occasionally causes wrinkles in the space-time continuum and deposits teaspoons at the bottom of the sink.

          1. profile image0
            sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            That dimension has been debunked.  The socks get eaten by the machine!  It's really quite horrifying. big_smile

            1. Sufidreamer profile image79
              Sufidreamerposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              What about the interdimensional timewarp that exists inside every woman's handbag? They are definately much bigger on the inside than the outside.



              True, and I don't blame him!

              1. profile image0
                sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                Hey now your infringing into the unknowable.  This goes far beyond magic, conception and space time continuum... in fact this is the question that has eluded even the most brilliant of minds since the history of man began. 

                Because sometime things go in but never come back out. *evil laugh, muuhahahahahhhahahaha*.

              2. Jewels profile image81
                Jewelsposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                But would you believe if he told you?

  5. GeneriqueMedia profile image61
    GeneriqueMediaposted 8 years ago

    Me three. ;P

    I just like to explore the possibilities. Far too often do people speak of the what ifs without sounding crazy.

    Wait, nevermind, I do sound crazy. Well, I'm always on the fence, either way.

    G|M

    1. apeksha profile image60
      apekshaposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      me 4

  6. GeneriqueMedia profile image61
    GeneriqueMediaposted 8 years ago

    =P

    If you've not seen it..

    Imagining the Tenth Dimension

    1. countrywomen profile image59
      countrywomenposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Good one G|M big_smile

  7. GeneriqueMedia profile image61
    GeneriqueMediaposted 8 years ago

    No, no, its not a dimensional rift that steals socks. Its underpants gnomes!

    1. Sufidreamer profile image79
      Sufidreamerposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Are they related to the 'Steal Trillions of Dollars' gnomes that live under Wall Street? big_smile

      The shows are great fun - where's Dork when you need him? He is doing that sort of stuff, now.

  8. profile image0
    pgrundyposted 8 years ago

    I love all the paranormal stuff, even the cheesy stuff. One of my favorite shows is "Ghost Hunters" on the Sci Fi channel. It's a couple of plumbers and their ghost-obsessed friends who investigate reports of paranormal activity. They almost never find anything, and when they do find something, it's usually pretty marginal, so most of the show is just footage of them wandering around in the dark pointing weird gadgets at various corners and bickering with each other. I think they're the nerdy friends I always wanted but never had.

    Anything on UFOs, aliens, Big Foot, any of that, I'll watch it.

    It's 99.9% bunk but I live for that .1% of true weirdness.

    1. countrywomen profile image59
      countrywomenposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      I too love that kind of stuff. I think that was the program I saw too. And they have some gadgets which seem to identify some energies(i.e., ghosts...). Btw I guess by now big foot has been declared as a myth.

      But anything about aliens/ UFO's I am willing to keep that question open ended till I die.

      1. profile image0
        sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        Sasquatch is not a myth!  It/he/she (shim) is just more intelligent than and has managed to make shimself only partly known when cameras are around. 

        Sasquatch is real! big_smile

        1. Sufidreamer profile image79
          Sufidreamerposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          It controls the ducks - its name is Aflac wink

          Hi CW - Glad to hear that life is going well. BDazzler provided the best answer - if science had proved these things, they would no longer be called paranormal.

          1. profile image0
            sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            ding,ding,ding,ding,ding....  We have a winner!  big_smile

            1. countrywomen profile image59
              countrywomenposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              BDazzler surely provided a very good answer. And I didn't know about his experiences as a magician. Actually they say something like "you fake it to make it" in public speaking course to fake confidence until one really has confidence. Maybe similarly if one is doing magic for a long time then one is surprised at oneself too (the line between illusion and reality maybe blurring) I don't know what else to think of the situation BDazzler mentions about magicians. smile

        2. countrywomen profile image59
          countrywomenposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          Yes it is "real" and shimself allowed this photograph to be taken tongue
          http://www.mantripping.com/images/stories/big-foot-tours.jpg

          1. GeneriqueMedia profile image61
            GeneriqueMediaposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            Father?

            Oh, and by the way...the sad thing is, I'm sure there's a bowling fetish out there somewhere...*shudders*

            1. profile image0
              sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              OMG, ROTFLMAO!!! that is all - amen. lol big_smile

  9. GeneriqueMedia profile image61
    GeneriqueMediaposted 8 years ago

    My favorite series in that genre is no longer producing new shows...

    It was called "A Haunting" and it runs on the Discovery Channel.

    1. profile image0
      pgrundyposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      I've seen ALL of those! I wish they were still making them, because I've seen them all. They still run the repeats over and over. smile

      1. GeneriqueMedia profile image61
        GeneriqueMediaposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        Yup, yup! And they just made a hollywood movie based on the first one--"A Haunting in Conneticut." I can't wait to see it!

        The mother was on a radio program I listen to almost nightly a few weeks ago...ever pick up Coast to Coast AM?

        Sulfi:

        No, underpants gnomes are hard workers. wink

  10. BDazzler profile image83
    BDazzlerposted 8 years ago

    Many years ago, I was convinced that "everything" had a scientific explanation.  We just handn't found it yet.

    At that time, I was an amature magician, (and was for a couple of years, the president of a local magic society).  During that time in my life was quite the student of the art of creative/artistic deception and the psycology of voluntary suspension of disbelief.

    I observed, a phenomenon common among the branch of magicians called "mentalists".  (These are the ones who pretend to be psychic and do hypnosis ... it's a lot of fun, but easy to become unethical).  Much of the valid scientific work in the field was done by Duke University's J. B. Rhine, and his work was used to give crediblity to many of the tricks.

    After a while "real" stuff would start happening to these metalists.  I didn't believe them at first, but after a while it became clear that their "weird stuff" was true. Because it wasn't happening just on stage or when they had their marked card decks.

    I read a book by "The Amazing Kreskin" one of the leading mentalists of my youth, and was originally convinced that the guy had listned to his own PR too much, until I also observed the "maybe some of this stuff is real" phenomenon for myself.

    Kreskin postulated that the primary problem with J. B. Rhine's scientific approach is that there were far, far too many variables to control to every be able to have valid scientific research done.

    So, my explanation is that it is beyond science, because of the limitations of science and human understanding.

    Clarke said, "Any sufficently advanced technology is indisinquishable from magic."

    In the old maagic books (1890s -> 1900s) Joseph Dunham illustarted a primiative radio-like devices that could be used to make skulls "talk" in response to questions.  It was quite amazing to people who were still marveling over the telegraph. Today, nobody would even be amused, much less impressed.

    Thus, if something can be regularly demonstarated and repeated, (including magic tricks) it is scientific.  If not, it is paranormal.  Depending on the individual phenomenon in question, we may or may not ever be able repeat it. Once we can repeat it, it's not paranormal.

    1. profile image0
      pgrundyposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Wow, you said a lot here. The degree to which I have obsessed about magic and about what can be done simply by directing attention is hard to overstate. For part of my life I was completely absorbed by weird questions along this line that will take a person right to the nut house if pursued to their logical ends. I wrote my graduate thesis on magic, not stage magic, but magic as a function of consciousness (or lack thereof), and it is a much, much richer topic than people think.

      For me it all got started when I was a kid with this neighborhood thug who made the point that "the best place to hide is in plain sight," and from there I just have never been able to let it go.

      I like the way you put this. I think you got it exactly right.

      1. BDazzler profile image83
        BDazzlerposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        Thanks Pam, I assume, since you live in Michigan that you have been to Abbotts? 

        That's a topic I want to "Get back to" some day, some friends with kids were over a couple of weeks back and I dusted off some of the old props.  Their mom said they couldn't quit talking about it on the way home.  Stuff like that makes me miss those days.

        1. profile image0
          pgrundyposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          No! What is it? Is it related to stage magic? I don't really know all that much about stage magic, but I do remember The Amazing Kreskin.

          I hope you do get back to it someday. That would be so cool. smile

          1. BDazzler profile image83
            BDazzlerposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            Abbott's is a magic store in Colon Michigan.  (Well, not just a store, they manufacture stage illusions there, they have awesome showmen and craftsmen) .. Every summer (This year it's in August)  they have The Abbott's magic get together in which the famous, infamous, the wannabes and the never will bes gather and perform for each other, swap lies and secrets and generally have a great time.

            I tried to go one year, but you have to book lodging nearly two years in advance.

            1. profile image0
              pgrundyposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              Whoa, too cool! Now that I know about it, I'm off to find out how close I am to Colon and when it is this year. Thanks!

  11. GeneriqueMedia profile image61
    GeneriqueMediaposted 8 years ago

    I'm going to totally misquote this but it has been said that "any technology not known to a society will be seen as magic."

    Again, I don't think "paranormal" is odd at all--and I disagree with a scientist who has a closed mind. Just because we can't see it doesn't mean it isn't there. We didn't know there were smaller mites up til the invention of the electron microscope. No one would have believed it, but I'm sure some pondered.

    Now we can see them.

    G|M

    1. Sufidreamer profile image79
      Sufidreamerposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Totally agree - a scientist with a closed mind is no better than a theologian or a philosopher with a closed mind.

      Sadly, the problem with the paranormal, as BDazzler implied, is the unethical quantity. For every paranormal practitioner who just may be onto something, there are 99 who are scammers or ignorant.

      At University, I witnessed a bunch of misguided fools attempt an exorcism on a girl. The poor girl was a typical teenager, with a little angst, but they were trying to tell her that she had a demon inside her etc. I went ape - that sort of thing can cause a lot of psychological damage.

      1. Jewels profile image81
        Jewelsposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        I totally agree with this Sufi. People shouldn't mess with things things they have no idea about.  I've had clients who spoke about people trying to clear entities and they stuffed it up so badly, it embedded further making it more difficult to clear. I say thank God for sceptics and discerners and the cautious people. They keep idiots at bay.

  12. GeneriqueMedia profile image61
    GeneriqueMediaposted 8 years ago

    I've some snake oil to sell, any takers? wink

    I get your point.

    These types of things are "other wordly" and much like religion, can be bent for the worse to create a prophit.

    However, I've seen some crazy things--exorsism is probably just a bad throw back to insanity in the middle ages...

    ...but then again, who knows? And if it works..why bother to care?

    G|M

    1. Sufidreamer profile image79
      Sufidreamerposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Agreed - whilst I am sceptical about many things, and detest pseudoscience, I have no problem with accepting that there are many things that I cannot explain or understand. As BDazzler beautifully stated, that is what makes life interesting.

      As you can see from the username, I am drawn to the fringes of religion and mysticism - that is where the interesting stuff lies smile

      EDIT: I was replying to G|M, but the reply equally applies to yours, Pam smile

      1. profile image0
        pgrundyposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        I'm attracted to those fringes too, for the same reasons. I think science and mysticism will meet in some ways--we just aren't there yet. smile

        1. Kelsey Tallis profile image78
          Kelsey Tallisposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          I agree with all of the above. In regards to science and mysticism: the implications of quantum mechanics, string theory, and dark matter completely fascinate me and I like to think further study of them will somehow link the two.

          That is, assuming mechanics can manage to solder bits and pieces together properly so they can get the Hadron Collider up and running for a reasonable amount of time...

          1. Sufidreamer profile image79
            Sufidreamerposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            I love that stuff, too - physics is a fascinating field and is uncovering some amazing things, although I suspect that every answer opens up more questions.

            Mind you, there is probably some old dude sitting in the Himalayas who knows it all already! smile

            1. Kelsey Tallis profile image78
              Kelsey Tallisposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              True, but as long as the questions become increasingly more interesting, I don't mind! :-D

              Also true, but he's likely not on the intenet and/or willing to share with everyone :-(

  13. profile image0
    pgrundyposted 8 years ago

    Well, I guess what I'm trying to say not very coherently is that where you put your attention is what you will consider to be real and valid, and yet we know that perception plays tricks on us, is partial, and can be manipulated.

    So science puts its attention on what can be tested and replicated and declares that real, which is a sane and fruitful way to go about things. But it isn't straightforward by any means, scientists get it wrong all the time, and just because you can't quantify or replicate something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

    A snail has a certain perceptual apparatus. In a snail's world, you and I don't exist. But in our world we do.

    1. GeneriqueMedia profile image61
      GeneriqueMediaposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Definitely. But I'm sane enough, and grounded in the "every day" enough to take on strange subject matter and treat it as reality for a few minutes in my thoughts. smile

      But would I bet my life on a crystal ball? Only if it could knock over pins wink

      Peace,

      G|M

      1. profile image0
        sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        LOL, must be a good bowler. big_smile

        1. countrywomen profile image59
          countrywomenposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          Our whole office team went on friday for bowling and I am really so bad that the ball slipped out of my hand (and also found the ball a little heavy). I could surely do with a few tips from G|M tongue

          1. GeneriqueMedia profile image61
            GeneriqueMediaposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            There's a very easy way to become a better bowler: drink lots of beer. wink

            That way you'll never notice that you're making a fool out of yourself. =P

            Or you could just practice. But where's the fun in that?!

            wink

            Peace,

            G|M

            1. countrywomen profile image59
              countrywomenposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              I will pass up on the beer but take up bowling more seriously. I already enlisted my husband to join me(so that should take care of the fun part). wink

  14. BDazzler profile image83
    BDazzlerposted 8 years ago

    CW, in response to the stigmata in particular ...

    Many people, the majority of whom are women tend to be highly empathetic to the point of physically experiencing symptoms. I discovered this during my "hypnotist" days.  I could, by suggestion, create rashes, for example.  I've also been able to calm raches down by suggestion.  That is why hympnotherapy is a valid form of treatment for certain things.

    This is because "something" in the nervous system that makes people respond physically to a mental picture ...

    Allow me to demonstrate ... Every male please read the following carefully ... give me your attention and imagination ... you are playing baseball, the batter hits a line drive straight toward your stomach. You know where the ball is going and you position your glove accordingly, suddnely, just before you catch the ball, it falls below your glove and hits you in the ... SLAM!!!

    OK, guys, be honest, how many of you crossed your legs or doubled over when you read that?

    How many, for just a moment, felt real pain?

    That was a very mild form of hypnosis. How many of us have been "mezmerized" by a piece of writing?  How many of us strive to be "mezmerizing" ... That's part of it.

    I believe that at least part of the stigmata phenomenon is a physical manifestation of an extreme version that same empathetic experience.  Not unlike rashes caused by nerves.

    Are we spiritual beings? Certainly. Is there a spirtual component to that?  I think so.

  15. profile image0
    sandra rinckposted 8 years ago

    What if we are aliens and we don't even know it?

    1. BDazzler profile image83
      BDazzlerposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      If a difference makes no difference is it a difference?

      1. Jewels profile image81
        Jewelsposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        And if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, it must be a duck! smile

        1. Sufidreamer profile image79
          Sufidreamerposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          BDazzler - It has started.

          http://pix.motivatedphotos.com/2009/4/15/633753841243408924-anatideaphobia.jpg

          Be Afraid.....Be VERY Afraid.

          Photo from: http://www.motivatedphotos.com/?id=15258

          1. profile image0
            sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            Ahhhhh!!! take it down, take it down, take it down....  that duck has been watching me and I know it.  He left a chain letter in my mail box.  It said "Aflac". 

            lol big_smile

    2. Jewels profile image81
      Jewelsposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      why would that be a bad thing?  We have a perception that aliens are something to fear. What if they could help us fix the mess we got ourselves into?

      1. profile image0
        sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        I don't know it was a joke. If I saw an alien, I would probably get scared but I don't view alien life (if there is really such as thing) as bad and I wouldn't think that if they did come to us that they would want to harm us or something. geesh. lol big_smile

        1. Jewels profile image81
          Jewelsposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          Have to say, I know I'd be shaking in my boots. Fear of the unknown more than anything.  Maybe they could answer this forum question though - that would be a hoot! smile

  16. BDazzler profile image83
    BDazzlerposted 8 years ago

    The pic of the duck and now my laptop won't boot and I'm surfing hubpages on my iPhone ... Coincidence or not? Hmmm

    1. countrywomen profile image59
      countrywomenposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Now I didn't know that Sufi could perform voodoo http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/4098/blinkhn0.gif

  17. profile image0
    pgrundyposted 8 years ago

    I know, but my point is that we don't have to make up anything beyond the normal to explain clairvoyance. When children are small, they process information visually before they learn language. I think that's all it is--some people retain this ability and develop it, other people lose it by not using it as much once they learn language. I can't prove it, but I think it's a good theory and that it is testable, so it would make for a good science project for someone.

    I don't think anyone will do such a project, but I'd love to see it--I think it would be interesting. smile

    1. mohitmisra profile image59
      mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Clairvoyance is beyond normal,like a sixth sense.Its gaining information without any known medium like sight,smell etc.We are all children of god or products of this cosmos and we can tap into this cosmos to gain knowledge.Meditation also gives such insights .Its tapping into the cosmic or higher intelligence smile

      What is this thing we call sixth sense,
      Its is made so you can cross the fence.

      Like intuition it comes to you and there is no normal explanation for this. smile

      1. Mark Knowles profile image61
        Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        I think you are missing the point that was made Mo.

        It is easy to ascribe everything to god and blindly believe everything that even vaguely fits your belief system (like Kirlian photography). What we are all saying is it is quite reasonable to suggest that so other sub-concious factors can come into play without one being directly aware of it.

        So - as an example - let us say that you have learned to read body language to the point where you can recognize a person's mood from that. But you did not know you had learned this because you were young and it was a defense mechanism to protect you from abusive adults and being able to determine when they were angry meant you could avoid them.

        Then later - you "know" when some one is angry - and you "know" you need to avoid them - but you do not know why you know. So this is now a "sixth" sense.

        Not everyone just ascribes everything they can't explain to a "higher power."

        I myself have trained part of my subconscious and my body to do certain things without any conscious involvement on my part.

        The martial arts are somewhat of a good example. If you had to think about making a move before making it - you would be too slow, so most martial arts train you to move without thinking by repetition.

        Not rocket science wink

        1. Sufidreamer profile image79
          Sufidreamerposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          Agree with you on that:

          I do a little crystal and faith healing, and it works. This does not mean that I automatically believe that it is some mystical force.

          1) It could well be some manipulation of auras and energies or,
          2) It could also be entirely psychological, making people believe that they will get better. The mind can influence the well being of the body, so that is not an unreasonable idea.

          1. Mark Knowles profile image61
            Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            Having spent 10 years as a massage therapist, I can say that many of the physical problems people have stem from something non-physical. Done a little crystal healing myself. Pretty good at reading Tarot cards too. big_smile

            1. mohitmisra profile image59
              mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              A mystic in his own way smile

            2. Jewels profile image81
              Jewelsposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              You're becoming more interesting Mark.  Do you still do massage?  I gave it away.

            3. Sufidreamer profile image79
              Sufidreamerposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              I have been known to dabble with Tarot although, again, I suspect that the subconscious cues have a large part to play. A bit like poker wink

              Must admit, I liked your martial arts point - the subconscious is a powerful thing. The only martial art I ever did was wrestling, not quite the same, but a lot of top sportspeople seem to have the ability.

              I used to play a lot of darts, and was OK. Every so often, in a zen-like thing, I would manage to completely empty my mind and would start hitting the 180's like nobody's business. Sadly, such a state only comes through practice, and I never had the time.

              I suspect that this is common with top sportspeople - I remember Ayrton Senna could never actually remember a race - he was somewhere else for most of it.

          2. profile image0
            pgrundyposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            One ironic thing about the physical sciences is that in some ways they unintentionally trump and even denigrate the softer sciences. So the fact that placebo effects are powerful and can trigger healing gets chalked off to "not real, it's just a placebo effect," which ignores the glaring obvious fact that REAL healing just occurred!

            I always thought that was really strange--like, duh, we should be exploiting this placebo effect, not discounting it as we look for newer harder drugs. I mean, it clearly works. smile

            1. Jewels profile image81
              Jewelsposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              But that would mean drugs are not always necessary! And the drug companies sponsor the tests in the first place smile

              1. profile image0
                pgrundyposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                Good point! I live in drug company heaven--Pfizer is located here. They are deeply hated by the entire community. It's a long story why, and as you can imagine, not a pretty one.

                1. Jewels profile image81
                  Jewelsposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                  Gosh!  I can imagine, seriously.
                  (must do your chart, I've not forgotten)

            2. Sufidreamer profile image79
              Sufidreamerposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              Agree fully - Last year, I did some healing on my friend's mum, who had chronic arthritis in her hands. This year, she was happily picking olives.

              I don't care how it works, only that it does.

              Psychology is a very young science, probably at about the same stage as physics was in Victorian times. There is so much that we do not know about the human mind, and many more mysteries to be unlocked. Interesting times!

              EDIT: Jewels - fully with you on the drug companies. Detestable organisations.

              1. Jewels profile image81
                Jewelsposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                There is allot of healing done on the level of life force.  Pam mentioned the term subtle bodies. It's an amazing field to go into.  There are studies using meridians, it's akin to that. Qi, or life force, is something tangible that can be seen and felt.  There is a body of work called Subtle Bodies that explains the workings of this level of Life Force and the impact of thoughts and emotions and how the two become intermingled.  The marriage is not a good one.  So it is a psychological impacting the body in effect.  Healing is complex.  Massage for example is working on the life force and what happens is a release between the level of life force and thoughts.  At this interface of subtle bodies amazing healings occur.  When someone can actually have vision at this level, really see structures, phenomenal occurences take place.  So it's interesting Pam mentioning placebo, because there can be a relief even thinking that something is going to help you, and so it does.  A release occurs in the belief alone and the placebo works.  Amazing!

                1. Mark Knowles profile image61
                  Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                  The trouble is - if the placebo is known to be a placebo - it doesn't work wink

                  The only one doing any healing is the person being healed. I would disagree with you that this "marriage" is not a good one. It is perfectly normal, natural and "good." Problems start to arise when you ignore it, cut yourself off from it or try fixing issues with drugs that end up cutting you further off from it.

                  Pam's example for instance. She could have gone to a "doctor" and been given a drug to "fix" that. Instead - she listened to her "sixth sense" and healed herself. big_smile

                  1. Jewels profile image81
                    Jewelsposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                    If there was no dissension between thoughts and emotions and out physical existence we wouldn't need medicine.  Intuition, inner knowing if you will is essential to health.  Problem is many have lost the ability (we all had it) to feel at this level.
                    I agree drugs are not the answer.  Anti-depressants are a classic example of masking an underlying disease.

                  2. profile image0
                    pgrundyposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                    Well, to be honest, FIRST I went to a doctor and by the time I was up to FIVE DRUGS A DAY and still feeling like holy hell and getting worse by the minute, I said to myself, this is crap. These people don't know what they are doing. I took myself off ALL of them, quit the job, lost 15 pounds, starting walking every day and eating better, and I've felt pretty good ever since.

                    Everyone told me I'd be sorry--that this that and the other horrible thing would happen to me---nothing horrible happened.

                    It's the drug industry that's horrible. And the doctors who just write prescriptions and ignore insane lifestyle choices. You really have to swim against the tide to take care of yourself, at least in the U.S. you do. smile

            3. Mark Knowles profile image61
              Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              Just try taking an income stream away from Mr. Big Pharma Inc and see how far it gets you.

              Most of the ads I see for drugs should be illegal - as should the unnecessary crap they are selling.

              And would be if we had governments that gave a shit about us. sad

              1. Sufidreamer profile image79
                Sufidreamerposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                Don't worry, the free market will fix everything and we will all be healthy and happy.  http://www.bbc.co.uk/606/2/refresh/images/smileys/f_laugh.gif

                1. Jewels profile image81
                  Jewelsposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                  I was shocked, last time I was in USA, early last year, the ads on TV for medicines - shocked I say!

                  Problem is I see Australia edging toward the same thing.  HELP!

                  1. profile image0
                    pgrundyposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                    It's NUTS here. Completely nuts. And here's the sick thing: The drugs that are most heavily advertised are the ones with problems or that don't work well--that's why they are advertising them. If you research any one of them, you'll usually find that some other drug is indicated as more effective, or that there is some huge problem with the drug in the ad.

                  2. Sufidreamer profile image79
                    Sufidreamerposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                    For me, profit and patient care cannot exist together. Anti-depressants are a great example - heavily marketed by pharma companies and then prescribed by doctors because they do not want to spend time treating the real reasons for depression.

                    My Mother-in-law was hooked on Valium for a while - not a good thing.

        2. mohitmisra profile image59
          mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          True you can say it is sub conscious and I agree with you on martial arts master.Its a good example of using senses which  some  may never use in his life or be aware of.I think every human and everything is god this consciousnesses,subconsciousness and super consciousness, just a way of speach for me.

          other sub-concious factors can come into play without one being directly aware of it. Bingo  smile or may be superconcious factors wink

          1. mohitmisra profile image59
            mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            Then there is the chi energy which martial arts believes in and something science is unable to explain.smile

        3. tksensei profile image60
          tksenseiposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          It's not really a matter of not thinking...

    2. Jewels profile image81
      Jewelsposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      I am positive Pam already knows what Clairvoyance is and doesn't need the dictionary.

      It wouldn't be difficult to test in the manner you're mentioning.  Statistical data has to hold some merit.  Even if the non-physical or psychic phenomena is not measurable by physical instruments, doesn't mean it does not exist.

      1. mohitmisra profile image59
        mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this


        Whats your problem? Why are you trying to create a problem between us.?

      2. profile image0
        pgrundyposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        As far as I am aware, most studies of ESP look for a statistically significant higher number of 'hits' on whether people can tell what shape card a person is hold behind a screen, or in some cases, they try to get the psychic person to manipulate some instrument with their minds and then again the analyze the results statistically,

        I would think that you indeed design an experiment to test whether people who get visual insights are more tuned in to emotional and body language cues than people who do not. I mean, they've done tests like this on dogs, so I think it's totally possible to design experiments on people. In fact, I would think that with all the psychological tools available--on perception and so on--that it would be easier and would provide more useful info than the standard ESP tests.

        I think the standard ESP tests are maybe taking the wrong approach, looking for the wrong thing. smile

    3. mohitmisra profile image59
      mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      You have a very valid point here.Then the subject is so vast its going to be impossible I think to measure someones physic caliber.
      Like IQ its limited or testing a mathematician purely on geometric questions. smile

      1. countrywomen profile image59
        countrywomenposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        WOW!! There has been a lot of discussion (and especially about prescription drugs!!). In TV there is a program shown by Masked Magician who reveals the magicians secrets. I find sometimes amazed about how easy it is to fool someone and at other times I have had somewhat of a lesser respect for the trade when I came to know it is just a cheap trick. Ok here is a hypothetical question for anybody: Would you be happy if Science discovered/invented technologies/techniques to uncover all the mysteries surrounding this paranormal phenomenon?

        1. Sufidreamer profile image79
          Sufidreamerposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          I like a little mystery, so no smile

          Mind you, I think that the human mind is so complex that as we find answers, we generate more questions.

          1. Cris A profile image59
            Cris Aposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            Sufi, ask Aphrodite or the Fates, they would know! LOL sorry, can't resist! I come in peace cool

            1. Sufidreamer profile image79
              Sufidreamerposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              lol lol lol

              Best stay away from Aphrodite - you don't know where she's been! wink

              1. Cris A profile image59
                Cris Aposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                And I suppose you do? Hmmm that should explain the lightning then! Be wary of the wrath of the jealous gods! cool

                1. Sufidreamer profile image79
                  Sufidreamerposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                  If it shrivels up and falls off, I will have no sympathy for you. wink

                  1. Cris A profile image59
                    Cris Aposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                    Countrywomen - must be, we'd better ask Sufi!

                    Sufi - ahh, the voice of experience, I should listen. I am forewarned cool

            2. countrywomen profile image59
              countrywomenposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              Cris- In another thread also I mentioned about a Greek God. I don't know is today the day for Greek Gods. wink

              Sufi- Even I like mystery. But being from India where there are countless fake mystics sometimes I wish we could find a way so that the few genuine folks don't get mixed up with those folks. So maybe it isn't a bad thing after all if science were ever to progress to such an extent smile

        2. mohitmisra profile image59
          mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          Man will never be able to understand all the mysteries which surround us as many will be above our ability of comprehension ,so we will never be able to make equipment to measure it.smile

  18. profile image0
    pgrundyposted 8 years ago

    Jewels--I just realized that was you! I saw the photo and thought, hey, a new hubber. (I'm not awake yet!) Love the photo! I love it when people post a photo instead of an avatar. smile

  19. profile image0
    pgrundyposted 8 years ago

    I wonder if this is part of the reason just moving your body can help. When I was doing call center work, I had this urge to run all the time--not run away (OK, that too...) but just run. Move. Move around. But mostly I wanted to run, which normally I hate. I wasn't able to do run, we were literally tethered to our stations hunched over for 8 hours at a time and over the course of 8 years my health deteriorated. I started running on my treadmill, which helped a bit, but getting out of there improved my health dramatically. I go for an hour or two hike daily now.

    I think the way we live and work has gotten really, really toxic. I don't think it gets enough attention.

    1. Jewels profile image81
      Jewelsposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Moving, running, walking etc., pumps life force.  Anyone who spends too much time at a desk will eventually find disease creeping up at some level.  One of the remedies for depression (not just one) is moving ones arse.  If there is a flow between the two subtle bodies - Life force/prana/etheric and the level of thoughts and emotions (I call this Astral body) then there is lack of disease.  Keep it flowing.  This is a simplistic view, but simple often explains allot.

  20. profile image0
    pgrundyposted 8 years ago

    I think of what happens to animals when we put them in too-small cages, for example. They go all weird on you and get very sick.

  21. Mark Knowles profile image61
    Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago

    Oh man - I am going to be accused of godlessly subverting the direction of a thread again wink

    I think we all agree that the pharmaceutical companies are actually the devil - and should be the second group against the wall when the revolution comes. big_smile

    1. Jewels profile image81
      Jewelsposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      LOL, can I guess the first?

    2. Jewels profile image81
      Jewelsposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Not totally.  On a different level it is these drugs that are significantly dumbing down nations (not just the USA).  Medications alter the ability to have clear perception of subtle bodies.  Anti depressants are a classic example of taking a person out of their senses, or some of them at least.  It is very hard to do any form of self healing if heavily medicated.  Given that mild medications can help people to get help on a psychological level to something that is effecting them physical, they are not the solution.  Drugs are supposed to be a bandaide and not the solution. The solution is sourcing why the illness occured in the first place.  This is where vision/seeing/feeling/intuition/sixth sense, whatever you want to call it, is required.  We need to get back in touch with ourselves.  This is how paranormal experiences occur.  Inward, always inward.  Massage is a great way of getting someone to get inside.  Touch and life force go together.

      Sex is great for healing - no argument there.  Life force is stimulated the most during sex and women benefit more than men here.

      On that note, I'll leave you all.

      1. Mark Knowles profile image61
        Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        It is not just the drugs. TV, cars, constant mechanical noise and electrical fields, pollution etc etc etc. It is our lifestyle and not an easy change to make because it requires a cultural rethink.

        And there are small welthy parts of the population that will fight very hard to keep the status quo (see religions, bank bailouts, car company bailouts etc).

        Oh well...

        1. Jewels profile image81
          Jewelsposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          I am hoping this financial catastrophe is the time window to make cultural changes here.  Whether we walk through it is another thing.

    3. mohitmisra profile image59
      mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      I am going to be accused of godlessly subverting the direction of a thread again.
      big_smile  big_smile   big_smile  big_smile  I think you are cool, questioning  everything. smile

      1. Mark Knowles profile image61
        Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        How else do you learn anything? big_smile

        1. mohitmisra profile image59
          mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          Perfect approach. smile

  22. Jewels profile image81
    Jewelsposted 8 years ago

    For the sake of a Depressed person or a person suffering severe anxiety, and those said people acknowledging the positive effects received from their medication, who wish to dump heavily upon my being for not having sympathy or compassion - I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT YOU.

    1. Sufidreamer profile image79
      Sufidreamerposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      That's a good call - we were all guilty of generalizing there smile

      1. Jewels profile image81
        Jewelsposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        Depressed people can be very rabid. (I know from experience).  And yes we are generalizing.  It's not that medications are bad, it's just the overuse and misuse.

        I said I was going to bed.  Doh!

  23. profile image0
    pgrundyposted 8 years ago

    "It's laughable, but it's not funny.  I was hearing (but can't confirm) that there is a law, or they want a law passed where you can't sue the drug company.  What's that about?  That gives them license to kill and get away with it."

    Michigan passed a state law like that years ago to get Big Pharma companies to locate here. It worked, they came here, raped the state, pulled out, then cut wages and benefits drastically for the few employees that remain.

    Some people here want that law overturned now. Now that the damage is done. I don't think states every win by blowing corporations like this. But they all do it.

  24. profile image0
    pgrundyposted 8 years ago

    "And the anxiety drugs - geeeeeeez.  I know there are levels to fear, but for goodness sake.  This is now taken to the extreme.  The fight and flight instinct is what gets us up in the morning.  Make a drug that numbs this and we are stuffed completely.  Instead of drugs, why not some self help groups to get a person through fears.  I'll join!"

    Again I would point to lifestyle. A lot of this is corporate culture pure and simple. Both of my corporate jobs included daily rations of "you'll be fired if..." and the lists were so long, the lists of what you could get fired for, that no one could even remember them. Going to the restroom was quantified and punished. It was expected that you would do your job faster and faster for the indeterminate future or else. People routinely worked eight, ten, or twelve hours like this then went to second jobs. And then they're stressed and anxious. Yeah no kidding! But instead of anyone saying, "Your life is insane. You need a new life," out comes the prescription pad.

    Why not just put it in the water cooler and be done with it?

    Oh yeah--no drinking water! Not on the clock! lol!

    1. Sufidreamer profile image79
      Sufidreamerposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Was in the corporate system for many years - I met some of the worst elements of society there. The last six months at my job was great, though - I knew that I was moving to Greece, so did not care about their pettiness and idiocy smile

      Jewels: Sleep Well! smile

    2. Mark Knowles profile image61
      Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      The British used to put bromide in the tea of servicemen to quell their sexual appetites. I know of several who could not "perform" when taking weekend leave to visit a girlfriend. wink

      And this was not so long ago.

      1. Jewels profile image81
        Jewelsposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        Geez Pam, we could be sisters in chains here.  My last 4 years in the banking industry almost sent me to the wall.  The whole industry from the middle of the pyramid down is screwing everyone they can get their hands on to take every pound of flesh available.  And people buy to "If you don't do it, someone else will"  God dammit, it's exactly what happens too.  Everyone is expendable.  Took me ages to realize I was just a little piece of crap in their big machine.  I thought I was important to them!  Anyway, traumatized by the world, I have issues about working any longer than a 7 hour day for anyone else.  This has become worse over the years and the last time I worked for someone else it was for 3 hours 3 days a week.  Now I work for myself and unless I'm leader I'm not going back to the grind.

        Mark, that is a shocking thing you're saying there, on so many level's I'm aghast.  There is a fly in the ointment here I want to investigate.  Can you give me a link to anything you've read on this?

        1. Mark Knowles profile image61
          Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          Sorry - no idea if there is anything online about this. This came from the "real world."

          I do remember something in one of Spike Milligan's books.

          As to the financial "crisis" I agree - but the powers that be are putting up a fight. It will have to get much worse first (which I think will happen. I see it as an opportunity, but all the Governments Inc have made it pretty clear they are prepared to go broke trying to keep things the way they are.

    3. Jewels profile image81
      Jewelsposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      GODS, and we let it all happen.  I'm on my soapbox now!  Stampede.

 
working