How can we explain Paranormal phenomenon through Science?
Yesterday I finished our milestone and wanted to relax a bit. And then we randomly ended up having a discussion about Paranormal phenomena. My husband suggested me to watch Stigmata (which he has seen earlier). It was a little scary to watch (I couldn't sleep properly last night). Anyway my question is when we are evolving so many technologies and techniques to observe and understand the things around us and now what is science doing or will do in the future to explain these unusual occurrences?
1) Stigmata (Where even physical symptoms are left on the body and supposed to be "true" incidents where Jesus Crucifixion is replicated on those people).
2) Exorcism (Where some places or people are "haunted/possessed")
3) Past life regression (Where some people seem to "remember" incidents from past lives)
I have seen some instruments in TV once which are used to measure the energy fields in the haunted places. But for those which are psychological(mental) then are we close to examine those people's brain(waves) accurately to figure out whether it is due to some inherent problem or some paranormal occurrence. I am agnostic hence I neither confirm nor deny the existence of paranormal phenomena like ghosts although I have not encountered any experience (except one brief moment after my grandfather died I felt him kiss on my forehead which still gives me the chills). When I was learning Reiki/Pranic healing then there was a concept of energy fields (and as per Kirlian photographs such energies are supposed to have different colors). I don't buy the argument that religion begins where science ends as an answer to my question. I believe science doesn't move from falsehood to truth but constantly continues to evolve from lesser truth to greater truth. I am not really aware of the scientific advances in the paranormal field and if somebody can enlighten me on this then I would be somewhat satisfied with so many questions in my mind without any definite answers.
PS: Religious quotes don't convince me one way or the other and here I am seeking scientific approach to these rare unusual phenomenon
Hi CW - Hope that life is going well
1) As far as I am aware, there is no record of anybody displaying stigmata under anything like laboratory conditions or in front of independent observers. At the moment, the belief is that the wounds are self-inflicted and a result of sleight of hand.
2) At the moment, psychiatrists believe that most instances of possession are psychiatric problems. There is no evidence that there is anything supernatural going on.
3) The evidence suggests that PLR is a mixture of suggestion and false memory, with little evidence of reincarnation.
So, at the moment, the scientific community believes that the above do not exist, and has not bothered to do much research. One of the few areas where there have been attempts at genuine research is ESP, with no proof of anything, yet.
However, this is not the same as saying that they do not exist, only that there is no good quality evidence as yet. I am pretty agnostic about the whole thing, too.Sufi,
I am doing well. I was way too tired yesterday our senior manager took us all out for bowling and then we went to another place had pizza (while some of the guys were getting drunk but not on ouzzo).
We really had fun at the office(morning no work and afternoon bowling/hanging out) and also had an interesting discussion slightly related to crucifixion.
Btw fantastic response and I believe ESP has been proven to exist in some people hence whether it is still considered paranormal, I am not sure? Nice to see such a good response from so many
That is because some of us understand Kirlian photography
- its been debated since the beginning.I'm beginning to think you are one of the nicest people on this forum I guess it will take others time to understand you
No it hasn't. If you understood it - you would know why.
Truth is I really don't.Have seen auras but don't know if its the same as the kirlian photography.
Have done course in pranic healing and and at the end of the week I could see the aura around a person but it was white.I believe that some people can see auras. I have personal experience of people doing a reasonably good job of assessing people's current mind state. Whether this is just a matter of correctly interpreting other factors such as posture, facial expression etc and "seeing" the aura is another question. I have never been able to see them myself, although I am pretty good at assessing people's mind state from the other physical things I mentioned.
Kirlian photography is not the same thing as aura photography. Which is a scam.
It works by passing a high voltage electrical current through something while said something is resting on a piece of film. The resulting aura is actually an electrical corona which has an effect on the silver-halide dye couplers in photographic film. Pretty much anything that conducts electricity will produce this effect. Dead or aliveOkay thanks for the explanation that's what I read but not with such detailed technicality . Its easy seeing auras its a question of practicing and the way you look. You cannot concentrate on the person but should look around him, it happens with time. I just see a hazy white around them and not details like some do.Look around 1 to 2 inches from the body there is one auara and the another one this can be a few feet fro the body ,have been able to see the first one only.This pranic healing was class of around fifteen and all of us could see the auras at the end of the week, some even on their very first day.
Then I had an experience on the ship where I could see the most beautiful light coming out of every object, the television, the sofa everything and it was beautiful and surprisingly alive
You do have a good judgment on people, that I have seen here on this forum.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clairvoyance
The term Clairvoyance (from 17th century French with clair meaning "clear" and voyance meaning " vision") is used to refer to the ability to gain information about an object, person, location or physical event through means other than the known human senses,[1][2] a form of extra-sensory perception. A person said to have the ability of clairvoyance is referred to as a clairvoyant ("one who sees clearly").
Then science has recently realize that the brain is calculating faster than what was thought.Read this recently in the papers. "
- sandra rinckposted 14 years ago
0Hi CW, hope you are doing well too.
I was reading this article once about past lives. It said, in short; why would a person be naturally afraid of fire?
We know that fire hurts, burns etc... but the underlying theory concerning past lives is that it is possible that our memories are being inherited, such as the fear of fire, water, earthquakes.
It wouldn't make much sense that a baby be naturally terrified of fire when the subject has not even encountered fire. So is it reincarnation or are parts of our memories being inherited from our ancestors?
As for stigmata.
Scientist use to say that we use only 10% of our brains but now they are saying that we use all of our brain.
I think that it is possible for stigmata to naturally occur however it might be that the phenomenon part is not external phenomenon but internal, self inflicted stigmata in which case the subject doesn't even know they have done it to themselves.
-sorta in the same way people make themselves ill by depression, they aren't physically sick but can make themselves physically sick-
This leaves me with the question about the human capacity to display "phenomenon" type miracles such as telekinesis, levitation, or some sort of psychosis. Though the word psychosis has a negative stigma attached to it, I don't think it should be viewed this way.Sandra- I am doing very well. Thanks for asking.
As for stigmata I am not sure whether I am totally convinced that it is self inflicted. St.Francis of Assisi who is a renowned saint experienced this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stigmata
But as Sufi has said such things don't happen in laboratory conditions hence difficult to rule out anything. And also all the other things like levitation, telekinesis and all have been mentioned in Yoga to be special powers which great enlightened masters after years of practice attain. Although I haven't seen any such powers but having read about it a little can't dispute that such things may happen but at the same time for every genuine case there would be about 100 fake cases which ends up making me highly skeptical.
Hi Sandy
Some excellent points, as always. Certainly, there are many strange things that happen in the universe, and I have seen a few things with my own eyes that I have no rational explanation for, although the search continues.
I think that the division is key here - there is no scientific evidence for any of these things, but that is not the same as saying that they do not exist.
Personally, I share CW's agnosticism - I am extremely sceptical about most of these things, but leave the door openme too.
No, it's 23. Gosh!!
Good one G|M
Are they related to the 'Steal Trillions of Dollars' gnomes that live under Wall Street?
The shows are great fun - where's Dork when you need him? He is doing that sort of stuff, now.
- pgrundyposted 14 years ago0
Sasquatch is not a myth! It/he/she (shim) is just more intelligent than and has managed to make shimself only partly known when cameras are around.
Sasquatch is real!It controls the ducks - its name is Aflac
Hi CW - Glad to hear that life is going well. BDazzler provided the best answer - if science had proved these things, they would no longer be called paranormal.ding,ding,ding,ding,ding.... We have a winner!
BDazzler surely provided a very good answer. And I didn't know about his experiences as a magician. Actually they say something like "you fake it to make it" in public speaking course to fake confidence until one really has confidence. Maybe similarly if one is doing magic for a long time then one is surprised at oneself too (the line between illusion and reality maybe blurring) I don't know what else to think of the situation BDazzler mentions about magicians.
Yes it is "real" and shimself allowed this photograph to be taken
OMG, ROTFLMAO!!! that is all - amen. lol
I've seen ALL of those! I wish they were still making them, because I've seen them all. They still run the repeats over and over.
Yup, yup! And they just made a hollywood movie based on the first one--"A Haunting in Conneticut." I can't wait to see it!
The mother was on a radio program I listen to almost nightly a few weeks ago...ever pick up Coast to Coast AM?
Sulfi:
No, underpants gnomes are hard workers.
No! What is it? Is it related to stage magic? I don't really know all that much about stage magic, but I do remember The Amazing Kreskin.
I hope you do get back to it someday. That would be so cool.
I've some snake oil to sell, any takers?
I get your point.
These types of things are "other wordly" and much like religion, can be bent for the worse to create a prophit.
However, I've seen some crazy things--exorsism is probably just a bad throw back to insanity in the middle ages...
...but then again, who knows? And if it works..why bother to care?
G|MAgreed - whilst I am sceptical about many things, and detest pseudoscience, I have no problem with accepting that there are many things that I cannot explain or understand. As BDazzler beautifully stated, that is what makes life interesting.
As you can see from the username, I am drawn to the fringes of religion and mysticism - that is where the interesting stuff lies
EDIT: I was replying to G|M, but the reply equally applies to yours, PamI'm attracted to those fringes too, for the same reasons. I think science and mysticism will meet in some ways--we just aren't there yet.
I love that stuff, too - physics is a fascinating field and is uncovering some amazing things, although I suspect that every answer opens up more questions.
Mind you, there is probably some old dude sitting in the Himalayas who knows it all already!
- pgrundyposted 14 years ago0
Definitely. But I'm sane enough, and grounded in the "every day" enough to take on strange subject matter and treat it as reality for a few minutes in my thoughts.
But would I bet my life on a crystal ball? Only if it could knock over pins
Peace,
G|MLOL, must be a good bowler.
Our whole office team went on friday for bowling and I am really so bad that the ball slipped out of my hand (and also found the ball a little heavy). I could surely do with a few tips from G|M
There's a very easy way to become a better bowler: drink lots of beer.
That way you'll never notice that you're making a fool out of yourself. =P
Or you could just practice. But where's the fun in that?!
Peace,
G|MI will pass up on the beer but take up bowling more seriously. I already enlisted my husband to join me(so that should take care of the fun part).
- sandra rinckposted 14 years ago0
And if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, it must be a duck!
BDazzler - It has started.
Be Afraid.....Be VERY Afraid.
Photo from: http://www.motivatedphotos.com/?id=15258Ahhhhh!!! take it down, take it down, take it down.... that duck has been watching me and I know it. He left a chain letter in my mail box. It said "Aflac".
lol
I don't know it was a joke. If I saw an alien, I would probably get scared but I don't view alien life (if there is really such as thing) as bad and I wouldn't think that if they did come to us that they would want to harm us or something. geesh. lol
Now I didn't know that Sufi could perform voodoo
- pgrundyposted 14 years ago0
I know, but my point is that we don't have to make up anything beyond the normal to explain clairvoyance. When children are small, they process information visually before they learn language. I think that's all it is--some people retain this ability and develop it, other people lose it by not using it as much once they learn language. I can't prove it, but I think it's a good theory and that it is testable, so it would make for a good science project for someone.
I don't think anyone will do such a project, but I'd love to see it--I think it would be interesting.Clairvoyance is beyond normal,like a sixth sense.Its gaining information without any known medium like sight,smell etc.We are all children of god or products of this cosmos and we can tap into this cosmos to gain knowledge.Meditation also gives such insights .Its tapping into the cosmic or higher intelligence
What is this thing we call sixth sense,
Its is made so you can cross the fence.
Like intuition it comes to you and there is no normal explanation for this.I think you are missing the point that was made Mo.
It is easy to ascribe everything to god and blindly believe everything that even vaguely fits your belief system (like Kirlian photography). What we are all saying is it is quite reasonable to suggest that so other sub-concious factors can come into play without one being directly aware of it.
So - as an example - let us say that you have learned to read body language to the point where you can recognize a person's mood from that. But you did not know you had learned this because you were young and it was a defense mechanism to protect you from abusive adults and being able to determine when they were angry meant you could avoid them.
Then later - you "know" when some one is angry - and you "know" you need to avoid them - but you do not know why you know. So this is now a "sixth" sense.
Not everyone just ascribes everything they can't explain to a "higher power."
I myself have trained part of my subconscious and my body to do certain things without any conscious involvement on my part.
The martial arts are somewhat of a good example. If you had to think about making a move before making it - you would be too slow, so most martial arts train you to move without thinking by repetition.
Not rocket scienceHaving spent 10 years as a massage therapist, I can say that many of the physical problems people have stem from something non-physical. Done a little crystal healing myself. Pretty good at reading Tarot cards too.
A mystic in his own way
I have been known to dabble with Tarot although, again, I suspect that the subconscious cues have a large part to play. A bit like poker
Must admit, I liked your martial arts point - the subconscious is a powerful thing. The only martial art I ever did was wrestling, not quite the same, but a lot of top sportspeople seem to have the ability.
I used to play a lot of darts, and was OK. Every so often, in a zen-like thing, I would manage to completely empty my mind and would start hitting the 180's like nobody's business. Sadly, such a state only comes through practice, and I never had the time.
I suspect that this is common with top sportspeople - I remember Ayrton Senna could never actually remember a race - he was somewhere else for most of it.
One ironic thing about the physical sciences is that in some ways they unintentionally trump and even denigrate the softer sciences. So the fact that placebo effects are powerful and can trigger healing gets chalked off to "not real, it's just a placebo effect," which ignores the glaring obvious fact that REAL healing just occurred!
I always thought that was really strange--like, duh, we should be exploiting this placebo effect, not discounting it as we look for newer harder drugs. I mean, it clearly works.But that would mean drugs are not always necessary! And the drug companies sponsor the tests in the first place
The trouble is - if the placebo is known to be a placebo - it doesn't work
The only one doing any healing is the person being healed. I would disagree with you that this "marriage" is not a good one. It is perfectly normal, natural and "good." Problems start to arise when you ignore it, cut yourself off from it or try fixing issues with drugs that end up cutting you further off from it.
Pam's example for instance. She could have gone to a "doctor" and been given a drug to "fix" that. Instead - she listened to her "sixth sense" and healed herself.Well, to be honest, FIRST I went to a doctor and by the time I was up to FIVE DRUGS A DAY and still feeling like holy hell and getting worse by the minute, I said to myself, this is crap. These people don't know what they are doing. I took myself off ALL of them, quit the job, lost 15 pounds, starting walking every day and eating better, and I've felt pretty good ever since.
Everyone told me I'd be sorry--that this that and the other horrible thing would happen to me---nothing horrible happened.
It's the drug industry that's horrible. And the doctors who just write prescriptions and ignore insane lifestyle choices. You really have to swim against the tide to take care of yourself, at least in the U.S. you do.
Just try taking an income stream away from Mr. Big Pharma Inc and see how far it gets you.
Most of the ads I see for drugs should be illegal - as should the unnecessary crap they are selling.
And would be if we had governments that gave a shit about us.
Don't worry, the free market will fix everything and we will all be healthy and happy.
True you can say it is sub conscious and I agree with you on martial arts master.Its a good example of using senses which some may never use in his life or be aware of.I think every human and everything is god this consciousnesses,subconsciousness and super consciousness, just a way of speach for me.
other sub-concious factors can come into play without one being directly aware of it. Bingo or may be superconcious factors Then there is the chi energy which martial arts believes in and something science is unable to explain.
As far as I am aware, most studies of ESP look for a statistically significant higher number of 'hits' on whether people can tell what shape card a person is hold behind a screen, or in some cases, they try to get the psychic person to manipulate some instrument with their minds and then again the analyze the results statistically,
I would think that you indeed design an experiment to test whether people who get visual insights are more tuned in to emotional and body language cues than people who do not. I mean, they've done tests like this on dogs, so I think it's totally possible to design experiments on people. In fact, I would think that with all the psychological tools available--on perception and so on--that it would be easier and would provide more useful info than the standard ESP tests.
I think the standard ESP tests are maybe taking the wrong approach, looking for the wrong thing.
You have a very valid point here.Then the subject is so vast its going to be impossible I think to measure someones physic caliber.
Like IQ its limited or testing a mathematician purely on geometric questions.I like a little mystery, so no
Mind you, I think that the human mind is so complex that as we find answers, we generate more questions.Sufi, ask Aphrodite or the Fates, they would know! LOL sorry, can't resist! I come in peace
Best stay away from Aphrodite - you don't know where she's been!And I suppose you do? Hmmm that should explain the lightning then! Be wary of the wrath of the jealous gods!
If it shrivels up and falls off, I will have no sympathy for you.
Cris- In another thread also I mentioned about a Greek God. I don't know is today the day for Greek Gods.
Sufi- Even I like mystery. But being from India where there are countless fake mystics sometimes I wish we could find a way so that the few genuine folks don't get mixed up with those folks. So maybe it isn't a bad thing after all if science were ever to progress to such an extent
Man will never be able to understand all the mysteries which surround us as many will be above our ability of comprehension ,so we will never be able to make equipment to measure it.
- pgrundyposted 14 years ago0
Jewels--I just realized that was you! I saw the photo and thought, hey, a new hubber. (I'm not awake yet!) Love the photo! I love it when people post a photo instead of an avatar.
- pgrundyposted 14 years ago0
- pgrundyposted 14 years ago0
Oh man - I am going to be accused of godlessly subverting the direction of a thread again
I think we all agree that the pharmaceutical companies are actually the devil - and should be the second group against the wall when the revolution comes.I am going to be accused of godlessly subverting the direction of a thread again.
I think you are cool, questioning everything. How else do you learn anything?
Perfect approach.
That's a good call - we were all guilty of generalizing there
- pgrundyposted 14 years ago0
- pgrundyposted 14 years ago0
Was in the corporate system for many years - I met some of the worst elements of society there. The last six months at my job was great, though - I knew that I was moving to Greece, so did not care about their pettiness and idiocy
Jewels: Sleep Well!The British used to put bromide in the tea of servicemen to quell their sexual appetites. I know of several who could not "perform" when taking weekend leave to visit a girlfriend.
And this was not so long ago.
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