Questioning No Child Will Be Left behind

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   Georgiakevinposted 14 years ago

   When "No Child Will Be Left behind " began I was invited to several meetings. The main speakers said that education should be like private industry. It was also said that Japan & Germany were leaving us far behind. We were told that educators focus should be on getting all children in to college. We were told that the public wanted Public Education to be like private industry and to be like Japan & Germany. I made comments in those meetings that guaranteed I would never be given a chance for my input again much less be invited to any more of those forums.
   
   I took the speakers to task on each. I addressed the private industry first. I said Over 51% of first year businesses fail. Will that be acceptable? I said some businesses take 5 and sometimes 10 years to make a profit or be successful will the public give schools that long to achieve success? I said in industry raw materials have to meet specifications or it is rejected and sometimes fixed but not always. Will public education be able to reject students not ready for school?
   
   I asked if we could get all students to college what would happen to the trades? What would we do without plumbers, carpenters, welders and electricians or would these trade people have to waste time in college when they could be out learning their trade?I asked if they were aware that there are some college degrees where there just isn't jobs available for people with that degree, wouldn't that mean that public education failed these students? I asked what about students who have moderate to profound mental challenges? Do we really want to focus on getting them in college rather than teaching them life skills?
   
   I asked them if they were aware that in Japan the curriculum is the same across their nation? Were they prepared to make that happen in our schools? I asked them if they were aware that in Germany school went 6 days a week and went from 7:30 AM until 5:30 P.M? Was the public prepared to allow public school to work like that?  I asked them if they were aware that in Japan public school teachers are among the highest paid public servants and if they thought the American public was ready for that? I was asked to sit down and my special education director asked me not to make any more comments.

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   Georgiakevinposted 14 years ago

   I am not sure I understand

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   Mark Knowlesposted 14 years ago

   It is spam, I have reported it and it will be deleted.
   
   On your original post - welcome to the real world. Expect massive education cuts in the future in order to prop up the stock market and financial system which is in the process of collapsing.

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   dennisemattposted 14 years ago

   I am worried what the whole no child left behind thing is going to do to homeschooling. some people see it as negelect, and would have everyone in public schools, even when the schools allowed football stars to gradutate without being able to read.
   But at least the tacher went to college...

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      Georgiakevinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I believe that not all children should go to public school. Education was never meant to be one size fits all. Some students do better home schooled. It would be nice if like many school districts in WA State do, home Schoolers could be under the public school umbrella. This would give Home Schooler  access to organized athletics and state wide testing.
      
      Some kids are better off just getting GED

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         dennisemattposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         I know. I agree. just worried about the whole.....if no child is left behind, they are making assupmtions on a broad scale about what is best for all children....that scares me. Not everone is destined to be a brain surgeon. Thats just a fact. Im not being mean, or doubting a childs ability, but the whole "if you can dream it you can do it" thing is absurd and dangerous. I can dream, but I know I cant breath water...

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5. 67

   B.Z. Alixandreposted 14 years ago

   If we begin emulating Europe (which in itself is no bad thing, I just doubt its success for Americans) I think it would be far better to adopt the multiple high school system: one takes them through trade programs, another is preparation for something between trade and university and the other is university prep.  Sure the decision has to be made when a child is about twelve, but students are learning things relevant to the lifestyle they want.  As was said, some students don't need or want to go to college. 
   
   No child left behind focuses so hard on the lowest percent, that it drops the standard for the highest percent.  It is doomed to leave us even further behind in the education race.

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   samadamsposted 14 years ago

   Education is usually a tool for the accomplishment of goals, and in todays society a very helpful tool to attain for most people

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   Connie Smithposted 14 years ago

   I have written several recent hubs on private companies who are in the post secondary school business.  Though there are many that are doing what they are supposed to, there sure are a lot of horror stories out there. I would hate to see this get worse before it gets better (as in better regulated). There is nothing these companies would like more than to find another source of taxpayer dollars to gobble up.   BTW, and I know this is controversial, I do believe that local control of curriculum is hurting our students and the education of America.  Wake up,
   America, we are way behind!

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   lrohnerposted 14 years ago

   Kevin, I agree with some of your points but not others.
   
   For those that we would focus on teaching them life skills or the trades, are you going to be the one who makes that choice? And at what age? Do we expect elementary and middle school-aged children to be the same people that they are in high school? How and when would you make that determination? And what about the kids that go into the trades? Without a college degree to fall back on, all it will take is one injury or accident to leave them unable to support themselves. Do you think all plumbers and carpenters are stupid? I know many college-educated men who have entered the trades and eventually started and ran very successful businesses. Why shouldn't all people in the trades have the educational background to do the same?
   
   My son was a very lazy student. He tested very well and I was told by all of his teachers that he was very smart (particularly in math). But he hated school. In middle school, his guidance counselor pegged him for trade school rather than high school. You know, the "dummy" school. She and I fought for months over that as she continued to convince my son that he couldn't achieve any more. (I finally got him moved to a different counselor.) Do you want your kids pegged like that?
   
   I also believe that the college experience isn't all about education. It really does help to shape these kids into young adults, and I believe they miss a whole part of their social upbringing by not having that opportunity.

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   The Sharkposted 14 years ago

   Private schools are not new ventures and have been in business for years. They do an overall better job and do not have to contend with the teacher's union.
   As a property owner I am faced with the fact that if I want to send my child to private, then I have to pay twice. I get no rebate on the property taxes I paid, which are being used to educate someone else's kid. What happens if I want to send my kid to private schools, but after paying my property tax bill I can't afford the private school, I'm out of luck.
   
   Woman want free choice and most politicians proudly claim they are pro-choice for something as vile as abortion.
   
   How about free choice for what schools we send our kids to.
   
   The Shark---pro-choice on education, having spent 2X, taxes and tuition, to send my kid to private school

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10. 61

    Colebabieposted 14 years ago

    I'll send my kids to public schools not private. I attended a public school and left with a Certification in Laboratory Assistant, a Certification in Allied Health Professions and more clinical hours than the pre-med students at my university. I agree that there should be options, private, home schooled. I just would never choose the latter two to educate my children.

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       Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       never say never

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          Colebabieposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Agreed. So I'll say "I probably won't". I may end up living in a country where there is mostly private schools

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11. 61

    Anam Cara999posted 14 years ago

    All right, so I'm Irish living in America, .
    
    No Child Left Behind is the biggest piece of crap legislation (very poorly written) to ever come about...I have not heard if it will be done away with, but it certainly should.  People involved in education of all persuasions are aware of the issues surrounding its lack of viability.
    
    To believe that all schools in the US could or should be private schools, also, is naive...and short sighted.  Even if tax dollars are going to educate "other people's kids," the fact that the kid down the street has graduated high school and has an adequate education so that he can be employed benefits all of society.

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       Georgiakevinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       I agree. We should be focusing on job readiness not college readiness.

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          Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Nope sorry. I strongly believe you should be focusing on life readiness. But who am I of course, when government needs workforce.

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       The Sharkposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Great for those kids, but they are not my kids. I pay $10,000. in property taxes, and our town is proud to say that 85% of our property taxes go to the scools. I would like my voucher so I can send my kid where I want to.
       This isn't Russia---I shouldn't be forced to send my kid to a govt school just because someone down the street thinks I owe their kid something.
       Do you think it's to much to ask teachers to actually be held accountable for their job? That's all no child left behind does. It made the schools actually show the results we're getting from them.
       Do you know of any other field where there is no measurement of sucess? What other field says you can never be fired regardless of what kind of crap performance you turn in?
       Education is the only one I know of. As for saying, well I went to a govt school and I got a good job---that's anecdotal.
       Here in the liberal northeast what they teach in these schools would make you sick.
       They spend more time socializing the kids then teaching them.
       
       For ex. The US History class in our local HS spent an entire month on the holcaust. The films they showed were not even archival footage---they showed the boy in Pajmas, and Shindler's list---Hollywood movies!
       The holocaust as terrible as it was, was only a tiny part of WWII. We didn't go to war because of the holcaust. Ask the kids who Capt Doolittle was and you get a blank stare.
       Same thing on the Civil War and the American Revolution, not even one film showed. If Hollywood is the std why not show   Tora, Tora, Tora---at least it's historiaclly accurate.
       
       The Shark--if woman can have pro choice for abortions--we should have pro choice for education
       
       I want to be Pro--Choice---give me my voucher don't force me into govt schools. It's the same thing that is going to happen to health care----no choice!

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          The Sharkposted 14 years agoin reply to this

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          Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Your information about Russia is slightly outdated. Nowadays nobody forces anybody to anything, other than paying flat 13% income tax.

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          Georgiakevinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          I am all for making teachers, administrators and parents accountable but "No Child Will Be Left Behind" does not make teachers accountable. Do you really think it does? I teach kids at a high school who have moderate to profound mental challenges. I have to show that my students are making progress in biology/physical science, algebra geometry and civics. These children are being taught life skills so that they can be as independent as possible. What should be assessed is how many independent living skills my students  are able to do so that they can live as independently as possible as adults. This is only one example. As far your vouchers are concerned. how d oyou know how qualified private school staffs are? It is very difficult to find out. Most private schools teachers are under qualified and under paid. Since they are not held to the same standard and their schools are not required by laws that i have to abide by you can't know so good luck on vouchers. Oh by the way "No Child Will Be Left Behind is not required in private schools.  Want to talk accountability? Let me teach school subjects not what used to be taught at home.

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             The Sharkposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             Grades, grades and more grades---that's the score sheet!
             That and standardized testing. They brought in no child left behind because schools do such a poor job of policing their own results.
             How about merit pay for what a teacher actually teaches. Should a psychology teacher or social studies teacher really make the same money as as calculus or physics teacher? Which is more difficult for a school to recruit and maintain? Then eliminate tenure and we might start to get our schools back.
             
             As for these un qualified private schools, well most have track records--you do a little research.
             My oldest went private and graduated and did great on SAT's, (which ranks you against your peers), then went on to graduate from Penn State.
             My second oldest just graduated private as well and starts pre pharmacy this fall, my 3rd graduates next May and is looking at pre-dentistry.
             As for life preperation--you make my point, govt schools are more concerned with socializing the kids then they are about teaching them.
             It's one of the reasons kids from foreign counties do so well in our Univ. Look at the asian population at MIT in Camb MA, coming form counties that stress the sciences, maths and reading skills.
             They don't look at their schools as a place to celebrate diversity and give social skills. They leave that job where it belongs, with the parents.
             
             Gloucester MA is an upscale north shore community here in MA. Their HS just had a great year---all their teaching life values paid off, they only had 17 pregnancies this year.
             
             But not to worry---the Superintendent said they plan on standing by those kids and is going to put a daycare center in the school.
             I am sure the tax payers are thrilled!!
             But the best news was that these same girls had been going to the nurse once a month to take a pregnancy test!! When asked why they didn't notify the parents----privacy.
             
             Guess how many pregnancies they have had in the private highschools my 3 daughters attended---0--that would be a zero!!
             
             
             When I was in school the only right I had was the right to an education.
             
             As for private schools not having to have no child left behind---you ask where is their accountability??
             
             Are you joking?? They rely on parents writing checks to the school for tuition.
             
             Lousy results means no checks, means no school.
             
             They consider results to be the grauaduating class being accepted to top colleges and universities. The privates publish the list of every graduating kid and where they were accepted. My dau. that graduated and is starting pre-pharm---everyone in her graduating class was accepted to a top school---the same for the oldest.
             
             That's the results, they speak for themselves
             
             The Shark----I am going with the pro choicers---I want my voucher

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                Georgiakevinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

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                   The Sharkposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                   Maybe in the poverty section of the country you live in that is true. But here in the NE we have great private schools---many are cathloic run. My wife graduated catholic shools and went on to a top univ. My sister's and brothers did the same---all to univ, my daughters --the same. Again, the privates list the entire graduating class and the univ. they were accepted to. If the education was lousy they wouldn't be getting into these schools.
                   The guy that did orientation at Penn State the day I went with my dau. to State College asked how many in the audience were from private. he said the survival rate was much higher for the kids from private.
                   
                   The counselor at my next dau's school told me that they have had "great success" at the univ with kids that came from her private school.
                   
                   I would also point to those kids in DC that had merit vouchers they won to attend the private school Obama's kids go to. (You know the one Obama has canceled to show he's tough on spending).
                   You can honestly tell me you think those kids were better off in the govt schools of DC than the private school they are in?
                   
                   
                   I am not advocating closing govt schools, only making them more accoutable, merit paying teachers by performance and what subject they teach, as well as eliminating tenure, and giving us the choice of which schools we send our kids to.
                   
                   Even if we only get a rebate on the taxes the years that our kids are in private schools, then resume full pay when they are out would be acceptable.
                   
                   I also think if the job is a full time job then teachers should be in the building 12 months of the year.
                   
                   The Shark---joining the abortionist for Choice---give us choice in education.

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    Anam Cara999posted 14 years ago

    As far as educational preparation, it should be college, work, and life.  What I'm saying is the NCLB is so badly planned and construed as legislation that it allows for nothing to be accomplished. Seriously.

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    Jane@CMposted 14 years ago

    Both of our children are in the public school district & yes we pay dearly for it with out taxes.  We have a great public school system in our district, which I am so thankful for.  We looked at private schools for our daughter when she was entering 9th grade, but didn't feel that their education system was any better than the public school district we live in.  That is not so in many areas across the country.  We are fortunate enough to have Honors, AP and College in the Schools at our high school.  My daughter took advantage of the PSEO program and concurrently finished her senior year of high school and her freshman year of college.
    
    NCLB is a sad state.  I've only heard of one teacher say that he would be teaching the test to the students.  Our middle school lost funding one year after NCLB was initiated & since then our test scores have become some of the top in our state. So with that said, more teachers are teaching to the test.
    
    I've seen more & more parents pull their kids out of school and begin homeschooling.  The new internet schools have really taken off and these kids are scoring very well in standardized tests.
    
    My son tests out very high, but he doesn't care.  Next year he'll be in 8th grade advanced math - because his math scores are so high.  Yes, he can do the work, but its tough getting him to sit down and do it when he simply does not want to (he says he doesn't want to be like his sister). He had a choice to be in advanced English, but chose not too, and I didn't push.  He is an amazing writer at such a young age, but hates to read.
    
    I firmly believe in teaching life skills. My kids both can cook, do laundry, balance a checkbook, etc.  I have to laugh when my son's friend comes over and does not understand the concept of a fork and knife.  His mom's still CUTS UP HIS FOOD!  They are 13! HA!

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       The Sharkposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       The school system in my town is in the top 15% of the schools in MA---hub of education. (We have all kinds of honors programs as well--trust me this is MA home of Harvard and MIT). But in my opinion that just means our schools are 85% less crappy then the other govt schools in our state and the rest of the country---our town having one of the highest ranking on the no child left behind rating too.
       
       Misha--I don't think that democracy in Russia is exactly the same as what we have here in the USA. But I guess if we wait a while we might end up with that too if we lose out choice for health care and end up "paying dearly for it" too through taxes.
       
       I am sorry you do not have any good private schools in your area,(but I rather doubt that is true), but here in MA we have an abudance of great private schools. But they cost money to go to, and again I am forced to pay full property taxes to support other people's kids going to a govt school, and I paid to send my daughter to private school---
       
       where are all the brave pro choicers? I just want the same rights as the woman have for abortions---only for eduacation---choice.
       
       And thank you for making my point about paying dearly for it with your taxes---shouldn't you have the choice of sending you kids to that great govt school or the school of you choice?
       
       The Shark---pro-choice on education

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          Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Well, again, you just missed on what I was saying altogether. Try to forget about your stereotypes, and realize that Russia today is not anything close to USSR of yesterday. It's economy is much closer to free markets then in USA, and it's citizens' freedoms closely approach and in some areas surpass those shrinking freedoms of USA citizens. And they have income tax rate which is like three times less than in USA.
          
          As for the good private schools - I have my very own criteria for them being good or bad, I doubt any MA school will qualify - see homeschooling thread for clarification if that interests you.

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    Leta Sposted 14 years ago

    Yes to the above.  One of the reasons I didn't finish my teacher's training was NCLB.  Horrible pressure on teachers it seemed to me...ridiculous.  Especially in regards, yes, to special ed students.

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       livewithrichardposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       I agree too. NCLB is crap legislation.  Not all kids are going to go or even want to go to college and to put the pressures on public schools to keep all children at the same standard is crazy. I think there are many states that think its crap to and are choosing to Opt-Out.

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          Georgiakevinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          We still need accountability just not this way. There is an easier way. Develop a rubric of what a good teacher is expected to do. Have a bureaucrat armed with a rubric spend an hour or three in my class observing me. That same bureaucrat could then take 10 or 20 questions and interview my students. Simple as that

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             EDU 101posted 14 years agoin reply to this

             Yes, No Child Left (with a) Behind is poorly written, badly implemented, and deserving of the trash can but we won't see those rubric-bearing bureaucrats coming into our classroom anytime soon either. (Although I agree that would be nice).
             
             Perhaps we could let the politicians have their precious standardized testing but we seriously downplay it as we have in the past. We could go back to a more social-promotional scale of passing students and use the standardized-waste-of-time as ONE of the many factors to pass students on to the next grade/graduate.

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       Georgiakevinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Very kind of you to say so. In spite of it all I still love my career though I find myself warning my own children away from making teaching a career. In spite of that my daughter is going to school to be a special educator.

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    Crazdwriterposted 14 years ago

    Beacuse of No Child Left Behind, I have stopped wanting to be a Elementary school teacher and stick with Preschool kids because they get to be just that kids. Forcing the kids to grow up so fast is horrible. There is probably algerbra in Kindergarten by now. I'm sorry the thought was nice but the way it came out is horrible.

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