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What makes consciousness?

  1. marinealways24 profile image60
    marinealways24posted 6 years ago

    How does consciousness happen?

    1. TheGlassSpider profile image80
      TheGlassSpiderposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Now THAT is an excellent question. I can't wait to see the answers.

      1. marinealways24 profile image60
        marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Thank You. I am patiently awaiting as well. big_smile

    2. 0
      Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      finally, a topic i adore!
      thank you marine!

      how it happens: a thought is set in motion.
      consciousness is finite -grand- but finite.
      it is the total perception of the minds ability to act on any given instance, single thought or collective thought.

      1. marinealways24 profile image60
        marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Thank You for posting. What gives consciousness the ability of thought? Why do you believe consciousness is limited to only a mind? I don't think anyone knows if consciousness is finite or infinite until and after they die.

    3. brianzen profile image60
      brianzenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Reverse is true "Consciousness" is that which comprises the substance of the real world. Now ask which eyes do we use when we see in dreams? Then ask to whom does this belong? Be it seeing, breathing or attention, They do not belong to the individual as the self only. If you are seeing and driving your consciousness belongs to that beyond the windshield, you are both within and outside, because your attention is like your consciousness it isn't rooted to one place. The mind is what begets the brain, the brain only processes it for physical tasks, even the ones we do not see. sort of like the electricity in the computer... Make sense?

    4. Cagsil profile image83
      Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Human beings evolved their consciousness and after doing so, it became part of the breeding/reproduction process.

      Consciousness in and of itself is awareness of your own life. It is what allows you to recognize your own living beating heart.

    5. 0
      Justine76posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Im more interested in UNconcious

      1. Cagsil profile image83
        Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        And, what makes you say that Justine? smile How are you btw? smile

        1. 0
          Justine76posted 6 years ago in reply to this

          I am conscious, and prefer not to be. how are you?

          1. Cagsil profile image83
            Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            I'm doing well. Do you want to be unconscious as in what exactly? Do you mean sleep? Or mean Dead?

            If it's the latter, please seek help. hmm

            On another note, if you are that tired, then do something that makes your blood move, so as to restore energy. Once you begin doing something, your tiredness should go away, simply because you will be concentrating on doing whatever it is you are doing.

            Thus, time may pass and something constructive/positive was done with your time, so you can then go to sleep and sleep soundly.

            Just a thought. smile

            1. 0
              Justine76posted 6 years ago in reply to this

              HAHAHAH oh I am sooo sorry, I meant sleep. But Im not tired yet, I wish I was.

              1. Cagsil profile image83
                Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                So, in the right context, you enjoy sleeping. smile Thank you. Nice to know. wink lol

                1. 0
                  Justine76posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  sleep=good

                  1. Cagsil profile image83
                    Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    smile

    6. shazwellyn profile image83
      shazwellynposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Consciousness is a developmental thing.  For the first 5 years of life we are more sub conscious than conscious - we suffer from childhood amnesia.  We remember very little prior to year 5  unless there has been something traumatic that happens to us or something very exciting.

      Subconscious development can be compared to Dos on a computer whereas the conscious maybe compared to windows - the operating system that runs on it.  The subconscious is always running but the computer is unaware.

      So, when you have 'windows' running on the computer or you add some software, this changes the running of the computer.  To compare - when a new experience or information is made aware to a human, then this changes the person.... of course, this then links to the nature/nurture debate.

      Conscious and subconscious desires (because you cant anaylise one without the other) is a question of great debate in science and it isnt something you will be able to conclude on a comments section in a thread on hubpages.

      However, I am sure that you will open a whole can of worms with lots of interpretations, so I shall watch this thread with interest! smile

      1. marinealways24 profile image60
        marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Hello, Shaz, I agree with you about subconscious doing most of the work. I also think it's interesting how our conscious can train our subconscious. I think you have consciously read some neuroscience books. big_smile
        Great thoughts, thank you.

        1. shazwellyn profile image83
          shazwellynposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          LOL... I did an honours degree in psychology!  Glad to see that some has stuck:D

          1. marinealways24 profile image60
            marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Well done. You should comment more, I am interested in seeing more of your thoughts on these things compared to what is taught and what is not taught. Thanks. big_smile

            1. shazwellyn profile image83
              shazwellynposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              The thing is with these sorts of subjects you dont really come to a resolve - researchers have argued over this for centuries.  I personally believe in the connectionist theory - I am planning on writing a few hubs on this but have yet to... so many ideas but so little time!

              The conscious and subconscious is dealing with purely the biological linking to the mental.  This is measurable.  Unfortunately, other thoughts on higher consciousness and the spirit are not measurable (scientifically) so are purely subjective in views.  Subjective views always seem to lead to conflict and there is little anyone can do in resolving this because of the meare fact of it being subjective.

              I like to live life in peace so try not be dragged into 'spiritual' realms in forum threads (if you cant stand the heat, get out of the kitchen!) unless I sense the vibe is a positive one.  I tend to leave spiritual subjects to my hubs where my, as the outside world would see it, subjective view can be written in a form that is understood (with luck!).

              However, just as a subjective or personal view, I believe that we are a balance of mind (intellect), body (physical - atoms, molecules etc) and energy (some call this the electrical impulses that go through our bodies, some people call this the soul or spirit - just labels or terms meaning the same thing).  This is divided into thirds of equal importance.  The trouble with science it only takes into consideration of two thirds, leaving a big percentage unaccounted for.  This is not surprising because it isnt measurable or they havent found a way of measuring it yet.

              Anyway, if we were meant to know the 'mystery' of life totally, it would not be a mystery anymore - it would be like knowing the answers to a test paper before the sitting!  What good is that?

              Just a thought:)

              1. 0
                JoelMcLendonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                We believe this too. The body has nerves that twist together some are connected to the subconscious mind (sympathetic nervous system)
                and some to the parasympathetic nervous system and they send impulses to each other. One controls the heart, breathing, digestion. The other connects to what we control, arm movement etc.

                The subconscious mind, we feel is connected to the soul and the conscious mind to the body. Therefore we are spirit and body and both are one. One needs the other.

      2. ceciliabeltran profile image85
        ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Yeah, this is well documented, but they are levels of consciousness. not absence. subconscious means somewhat conscious. Again the consciousness of an organism is only as far as it is relevant to it. Reflex is conscious of stimuli. It is not fully conscious as we are, but it is a stage of consciousness.

        1. marinealways24 profile image60
          marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

          I really try hard not to agree with you so much, but it happens. big_smile

          1. ceciliabeltran profile image85
            ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            oh well, that's because I tailor my data to your ideas...he he he. I'm your lower brain.

    7. richardheft profile image59
      richardheftposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      God is the source of all consciousness. Everyone knows that human life is body, mind and spirit (soul of God). The Spirit, God is the source of our consciousness, spirit. Without spirit, there is no life. What do you think happens during sleep that we wake up fresh, rejuvenated the follwing day?, During sleep we lose our consciousness, become unconsciousness, during which time we connect with our superconsciouness, God. This is why all religions stress that one should focus their minds, smaller consciousness on their greater consciousness, God if they truly want to be happy, eternally blisssful. It is only when the mind, ego identifies with the finite: body, senses, material possesions, friends, family, etc. that one becomes unhappy, falls from grace.  "The soul is ever at peace, while the sense-identified body and mind ceaselessly experiences the phenomenal dualities- good and evil, pleasure and pain." Paramahansa Yogananda, Bhagavad Gita, page 300.

      1. Obscurely Diverse profile image60
        Obscurely Diverseposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Oh, boy...
        We've got a conscious calamity, here......

      2. marinealways24 profile image60
        marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Richard, you have no clue as to why you are conscious. God is just the name you put on it to make you feel comfort. You are dependent on assumptions. Not everyone has peaceful sleep or wakes up happy and rejuvenated in the mornings, more silly assumptions. We don't go unconscious during sleep or become "superconscious", we are subconscious. If we were unconscious, we would be dead. Religions stress God to give you something to believe in to control your conscious, not to free your conscious. A person doesn't need a belief in your religious idol to be happy, another silly assumption. I have lost count, how many assumptions are we on now? There is no such thing as good and evil, another horrible assumption. Maybe you are the evil one in your belief of good and evil for being a separatist and religious preacher. Religion is material, free belief is not. Don't try to lecture about freeing your mind when you don't understand the design of religion.

        1. adrienne2 profile image84
          adrienne2posted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Say what? How can one say a person has no clue to why they are conscious. Saying God is the source of consciousness has nothing to do with religion.   Nor those it have anything to do with having a need to believe in a particular faith.  Richard simply stated God is the reason for being conscious.  We do not have the ability to be conscious of our own accord.  He could have left out the part about what all religions believe in.  Just for the record I DO NOT agree with everything he stated.  I am simply clarifying I believe we are conscious because of God.   I am certainly not advocating for any particular faith or belief.

          1. marinealways24 profile image60
            marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

            No one knows the origin of consciousness, they are only assumptions. Some are based on more evidence than others, none are absolute. God is a religious materialistic term. The religious and God lovers talk about unity and peace, then label and title every belief and person which creates hate and separation. Richard doesn't know who or what made him conscious, he only makes assumptions that make him feel the best. They are assumptions from faith with little logic to back them up.

            1. adrienne2 profile image84
              adrienne2posted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Oh well do not want to get into the God factor, due to the question was not God related.  I will stick to the consciousness question. Was just saying God is why we are conscious.

              1. marinealways24 profile image60
                marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                You don't know why we are conscious. big_smile

                1. 0
                  Deborah Sextonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Gee is that what Adrienne said? It's not what I read...hummm

                  1. adrienne2 profile image84
                    adrienne2posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Oooohh Deborah, What did ya read?

                2. adrienne2 profile image84
                  adrienne2posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Well Marinealways, let us just say perhaps you do not know why we are conscious. I know why I am conscious.  Interesting discussion!

                  1. marinealways24 profile image60
                    marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Adrienne, of course I don't know where, who, how, or why the first conscious cell originated, this is why I started the thread. I want to find out, but have been sidetracked trying to prove the obvious that consciousness starts on the cellular level. I still disagree that you know the origin of consciousness, but if you have any ideas with explanations, i'll gladly read them. Thank You. big_smile

      3. ceciliabeltran profile image85
        ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        A yogi enters the stadium! Namaste!

        1. marinealways24 profile image60
          marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

          lol Where is boo boo?

          1. ceciliabeltran profile image85
            ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            sorry I love Bhagavad gita! It's so neural!

    8. SparklingJewel profile image66
      SparklingJewelposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      ...the soul, which is the eternal part of our earthly being, is in unity with God (even though there is a portion of soul [that has karma to clear] that is veiled from knowing that is true)

      soul is aware of its unity with God after a certain degree of karma has been cleared

      the soul knowing this unity with God, is consciousness

      there are degrees of this knowing...so basically it is a process of gradually unveiling consciousness, a degree or more at a time as one seeks to find out and understand ones place in the universe/God

      1. marinealways24 profile image60
        marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Is this a scientific/logical explanation or a faith based explanation? Many people who are/were conscious of God are worse than some that are unconscious of a God.

        I'm glad I don't have the spirit or consciousness to follow a cult leader like other religious minds that have allowed others preaching God to control their conscious.

        1. SparklingJewel profile image66
          SparklingJewelposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          it is a complicated, can be a complicated, thing.

          as far as i am concerned, there is no dicussing consciousness without acceptance that it is a spiritual concept of our reality

          1. marinealways24 profile image60
            marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Yes, it does get complicated when you make faith based assumptions with no logical explanations.

            Consciousness is only spiritual when you make your assumptions in good spirits without logical explanations. big_smile

            1. SparklingJewel profile image66
              SparklingJewelposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              spirituality is not based in logic...that is for the human mind...we are intended to use both our faith and out logic to find our unity with the universe/God...consciousness...which is the answer to your question, you were asking smile

              1. marinealways24 profile image60
                marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Consciousness can be talked about without throwing God into the picture, especially when you have no evidence or explanation of why you think your idea of a God created consciousness. I was looking for answers with explanations, not just the answers that make you feel good.
                If a God is responsible for consciousness, then why do people with open minds further their learning by reading multiple perspectives rather than just reading the same prayer book over and over like the common religious believer?

                1. adrienne2 profile image84
                  adrienne2posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Sparkling Jewel this is the very reason I have bowed out to discuss it, because without accepting the spirit there is no discussion to be had of consciousness.  It has nothing to do with religion or some type of following of a cult leader.

              2. 0
                Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                i disagree. the spirit uses the mind to transmit into the body those expressions of 'faith'.
                faith does not require mind or body -or spirit for that matter, though it engages all.

                1. marinealways24 profile image60
                  marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Faith requires mind and body. If you have faith, your mind believes in what you have faith in. What you have faith in, your body follows. Please explain the design of the spirit using the mind to transmit the expressions.

                  1. 0
                    Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    untrue. faith would then be subjective in nature. it is not.
                    faith is beyond all subjection, has no need.
                    the mind and body need, thus draw faith into the argument in a feeble attempt to satisfy the need.

    9. 70
      logic,commonsenseposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Coffee or Mountain Dew! smile

    10. 0
      Dog On A Missionposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Ask Daniel Dennet and Douglas Hofstader.

      Google those names.

    11. BWU910 profile image61
      BWU910posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Consciousness is the organization of the mind that exist through derivation of the minds natural functions. The growth process of the conscious processing requires the mind executing its essence- integrating. Consciousness works as the cognitive process within the species that brings all perceived perceptions into an integrated conception. How did it start? As stated previously.. consciousness conceived itself within the natural phenomena of the brains integrating process.

    12. BeiYin profile image60
      BeiYinposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Consciousness does not happen, consciousness *is*.  Consciousness does not depend on thoughts or feelings, although in a primitive state of being, like it is in the majority of humans, it is bound to the identification with body, mind and emotions and so can't go beyond what is established as 'personality'. And of course in a plant or an animal it is bound to the physical structure and rudimentary personality. Only in an advanced state of evolution, consciousness can go beyond the limited personality and expand to other wider dimensions. There have been very few individuals during human history who has shown signs of a higher consciousness, but it has shown that it is senseless to talk or write about this, because without the experience that is the result of ones personal growing process, it will be only integrated as an other concept and stay as a theory, - or it will be made to a belief and be added to the pool of properties of fake reality of this person and also of society.

      1. ceciliabeltran profile image85
        ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Nice post, like it.

  2. TheGlassSpider profile image80
    TheGlassSpiderposted 6 years ago

    Hey! I know...I'll type the question in my browser and see what we get.

    1. marinealways24 profile image60
      marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      lol I hope you do good, I haven't found anything credible yet while I have been searching.

      1. TheGlassSpider profile image80
        TheGlassSpiderposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        LOL I figure "Durh...We dunno" is the MOST credible answer we're going to get. wink

        1. marinealways24 profile image60
          marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

          lol I think it's hilarious, most to all of us think or know that we are the highest conscious life on the planet, but no one knows how. I do think we are the highest conscious life on the planet for having our level of awareness.

          I had to edit this one. big_smile

  3. TheGlassSpider profile image80
    TheGlassSpiderposted 6 years ago

    Well crud. According to the first article that popped up this is "one of the greatest unsolved questions in science"

    *feels kinda deflated now*

    1. marinealways24 profile image60
      marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      lol, I think we can figure it out or at least get a better idea. I am watching youtube videos on it. I will post when I find a good one. big_smile

  4. Hokey profile image61
    Hokeyposted 6 years ago

    Nobody knows.Looked it up too.

    1. qwark profile image61
      qwarkposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Hokey:
      Right! We don't know.
      All we know is that evolution has formed cell groupings in the brain that have created an ability to recognize and make meaning of "abstracts" and which eventually engendered self recognition.
      The brain is so complicated and enigmatic that we may never understand consciousness in a way it can be defined and explained.
      We're still in Pre-school as a species.

      1. marinealways24 profile image60
        marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Yes, but even life without brains, "plants" have a level of consciousness or awareness to their environment. I think consciousness is much broader than just the brain.

        1. qwark profile image61
          qwarkposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Marine:
          Without being sentient, the brain would be just a
          ganglion.
          The brain uses SOR (Simulus,Organism, Response) the same as all "lesser" life does in adapting to it's environment.
          The "huge" difference is in the evolution of the 2 frontal lobes. They are responsible for making us unique amongst all life on this planet.
          I'm sure you know this.

          1. marinealways24 profile image60
            marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Yes, but would we have evolved differently without consciousness?

            1. Obscurely Diverse profile image60
              Obscurely Diverseposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              These people don't understand what you're implying, obviously......  big_smile

              1. ceciliabeltran profile image85
                ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                he he he....

        2. TheGlassSpider profile image80
          TheGlassSpiderposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Okay. So what's your definition of "consciousness?" And how is it expressed in plants?

          I don't think I've ever thought of plants as having consciousness.

          1. marinealways24 profile image60
            marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Y3d9gIUcI0
            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXb6YKERKn4
            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktIGVtKdgwo

            Spider, these are some great videos showing plant awareness. Science refers to plants reactions as defense or survival mechanisms. One thing they tend to leave out is how the plant has to be conscious or aware of it's threats for it's defense mechanisms to be activated. I think consciousness or awareness drives the defense/survival mechanisms. I think it could be called conscious mechanisms. There are also plants that evolve physical mechanisms to deter predators.

            Without an awareness of predators, why would there be a need to evolve defense mechanisms? big_smile

            I can't define consciousness as absolute because i'm not completely sure. To simplify it, I think consciousness is life. I think all living things have some level of consciousness or awareness. I also think evolution would be impossible without consciousness. If there was no awareness or consciousness of threats for life to survive or evolve, the threats would never be recognized.

            1. Mikel G Roberts profile image88
              Mikel G Robertsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              well said...  hmm

              {EDIT}
              After watching the videos I have to agree plants have some form of intelect/awareness. I remember as a kid watching the trees turn their leaves over when a storm was coming. How could that only happen before a storm unless they have some kind of awareness system. It may be just a sense of electrical changes in the air or maybe it is a chemical change in the air? I'm not convinced that they think or have thoughts about self, but a very primitive begining to that process might be the ability to detect chemical/electrical changes in their environment... hmm


              But what makes them, and how do they, decide to grow leaves that can close and capture ants... How do they decide to grow so they can hold water and catch protein rich food supplies? Is it trial and error? How would they know something worked and something didn't? Maybe they communicate through chemical processes more than we think???

              Maybe it is God that does it for them. Plants aren't granted free-will. An intervention on behalf of plants doesn't break God's promise of not preventing/interfering with freewill... ???  hmm

              1. 0
                Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                i like that.

                one could liken it to a 'program' installed in the seed of plants, other creatures with a specific set of instructions, functions they perform, no more no less. A plant won't decide to eat, it just does. Not necessarily 'conscious/aware' of what they are doing.

                organic-automation.

                personally have always believed humans were the same, save free will/choice. the human brain having all instructions necessary to live from day one.

                fun stuff.

                1. marinealways24 profile image60
                  marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  I disagree with "it just does". The plant has to have consciousness of eating to survive. If it wasn't aware it needed to eat to survive, it probably wouldn't eat. I think "it just does" is relating it to magic. I think there must be a level of consciousness or awareness that leads to the actions.

        3. Hokey profile image61
          Hokeyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Consciousness and awareness are two different things I think.

          1. 0
            philip carey 61posted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Consciousness is always OF something. There can be Awareness without Consciousness, but not Consciousness without Awareness. Awareness is what you, me, everything is, according to Advaita Vedanta.

            Ask yourself, Who am I? Can you BE that which you perceive? Who is the witness of the "I" thought? There must be something there for the "I" thought to appear to. It's just eternally there, pure Awareness, pure causeless, timeless being. The matrix of all that is.

            An excellent question!

            Google "Sri Nisargadatta" and read some of his quotes. Very powerful stuff.

            1. marinealways24 profile image60
              marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Hello philip, I think the words can be used to mean the same thing while also being used to mean different levels.
              If an animal is conscious of it's threats, it can also be said the animal is aware of it's threats.
              But, I don't think many animals besides us have the capability to be aware of their consciousness. I think our level of awareness along with our language, reading, writing lead to comparitive thought to have comprehension of analyzing what "I" is or thinking of "I". Without consciousness of others thoughts, would we know who or what we are? I don't think we would. Great thoughts, thank you.

              1. 0
                philip carey 61posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Cogent point, Marine. Former Marine here too. Semper Fi. Check out the Nisargadatta thing, though. I've read a lot about this stuff, and he's among the most revered on such things.

                1. marinealways24 profile image60
                  marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Nice to see another former Marine, glad i'm not the only insane one here. lol
                  Semer Fi . I will check it out, thanks.

  5. marinealways24 profile image60
    marinealways24posted 6 years ago

    I don't know if this helps, but I do think most to all life is dependent on consciousness or awareness for survival. Animals and plants both must be conscious or aware of their threats or food sources to survive.

  6. waynet profile image47
    waynetposted 6 years ago

    Being awake helps!!

    1. marinealways24 profile image60
      marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Yes, but even when asleep, you are still subconscious or conscious. If you are sleeping and hear a loud noise or something disturbing, you consciously awake unless you drank a 12 pack before going to sleep. big_smile

      1. waynet profile image47
        waynetposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Then your ears makes you conscious!!

        1. marinealways24 profile image60
          marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

          lol, I was trying to get a little deeper. What makes the ears and body conscious? The ears are made of cells that relay the signal to the brain cells. Are the cells conscious?

          1. waynet profile image47
            waynetposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            It depends on the prisoners staying in the cells....this must be asked about much further...

  7. goldenpath profile image81
    goldenpathposted 6 years ago

    Awareness of one's own individuality.

    1. marinealways24 profile image60
      marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Describe how plants and other animals are aware of their own individuality.

      1. goldenpath profile image81
        goldenpathposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        All things are conceived of first, spiritually, before they are temporally.  All things have purpose and are given the ability to fill their measure.  Animals are aware as they are instinctive and are survival prone.  They also gain dependence and some learn to lead.  Plants have their purpose as well, yet their consciousness is not calculated on a scale that we associate with.  Plants fill their measure according to their spiritual design. 

        I doubt that answered it.  This is a Knowledge & Education thread and, therefore, should not veer into religious realms.  For that reason I'll let my vague explanation suffice.  In a nutshell, though, all things formed from the Source have purpose and individuality, and likewise have the design of filling their measure allotted them thus ensuring perpetual existence.

        1. marinealways24 profile image60
          marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Spiritual design? What does this mean? It sounds religious. I don't know if I would say all plants have individuality. They would need language and reading and writing to have awareness to recognize or be individuals. I think they do have a level of consciousness, but I have no idea of what level. I think saying they have spiritual design is assuming their design without knowing it.

          1. ceciliabeltran profile image85
            ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            in Hebrew the symbol for spirit is the same as Oxpower (as in horsepower), wind and breath...so spirit was actually pertaining to force...interesting,eh?

  8. TLMinut profile image61
    TLMinutposted 6 years ago

    Those videos don't necessarily show awareness in plants - chemical reaction explains it. Do trumpets and Venus flytraps work the same way even in other soils or only the nutrition-deficient ones?  Acacia leaves when chewed have their outer 'skin' compromised and that emits a gas, mechanical? Chemical? Why does that require consciousness?

    1. marinealways24 profile image60
      marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      TL, I think consciousness is necessity for the chemicals to be activated while maybe the chemicals also produce the consciousness. I think there must be a consciousness or subconsciousness to realize changes, stimulation, or threats. Transfer this question to us, when we have chemical imbalances, it throws us off. Much depression is attributed to chemical imbalances. When there are chemical imbalances, this "alters our state of consciousness".

  9. TLMinut profile image61
    TLMinutposted 6 years ago

    My son asked me questions about consciousness a few months ago. "Mom, what does being conscious mean? That you can think? Having thoughts? Thoughts are when your brain...it's...hey, what IS a thought? Really, just what exactly is a thought?" Tough question.

    1. marinealways24 profile image60
      marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      That is a great question TL. Possibly the root of thought is consciousness or the root of consciousness is thought. I think consciousness leads to thought, without consciousness, I don't think there would be thought. How old is your son, he asks hard questions. lol

      So, does consciousness make thought or does thought make consciousness? I'm not quite sure.

  10. Pandoras Box profile image82
    Pandoras Boxposted 6 years ago

    Again Marine, I must compliment you on your fascinating thread topics.

    I think you may be right about consciousness being present to some extent in all life, including plants. I can tell you my fish are conscious. Don't know enough about fish anatomy to tell you if they have frontal lobes or not. But they know me (the feeder) from everybody else. They have fear, which some may call instinct but I'm not so sure. I had a bunch of platies born once, like we had about fifty of them born over the space of a month or so from just two females. Anyway, I gave one of them to the kid across the street, along with an old 2.5 gal fish tank setup that I had.

    Months later, she gave it back cause she wanted a hamster or something. That one platy was so used to being alone that it couldn't be successfully reintroduced to the big tank. Weeks later it was still far too skittish, too nervous. A little heavy breathing is normal at first, but it usually only takes a day or so for the new fish to get comfortable.

    With fish, you have to be careful about combinations. I have five tanks, had six at the time but I just shut one down, but ya can't put bullying fish with fish who can't protect themselves, ya can't put male and female livebearers together -even teh different breed livebearers will try to mate with each other (or the males will anyway, which is harassing to the females and stressful), and ya can't overcrowd, etc etc. So I really didn't have a tank to put this lone platy in to make it comfortable. But after awhile I had to do something, because this fish was being far too stressed out in any of the other tanks. It wasn't happy, it wouldn't acclimate as they say, until I made it a home for itself. Then it was perfectly satisfied.

    How is that instinct I ask you?

    If a 1.5 inch fish has consciousness, why not plant life? We've all heard stories about plants responding well to being kindly talked to, or hearing music, etc. Is that instinct? Though I must confess I know of no studies which have proven that study though. Doesn't mean there aren't any, just means I'm too lazy to look at this very moment cause I'm about to sign off for the night.



    Great topic again though, thanks for the brain stimulation!

    1. marinealways24 profile image60
      marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Thank You Pandora, I appreciate that.  I think they also have to be conscious to catch food. Without a consciousness or awareness of where the food is, I don't think they would survive. In instinct, I think the conscious or subconscious reactions lead and trigger the instinctive mechanisms and actions. Another thing is adaptation to an environment, if life had no consciousness at the cellular level, I don't see it possible for cells to adapt and evolve to the environment to survive. If I was currently unconscious,  I have no way of knowing or reacting to threats, plus I couldn't seek food or water to keep myself alive. Thank You for adding your thoughts.

  11. TLMinut profile image61
    TLMinutposted 6 years ago

    Fish? I certainly didn't expect that, they look so blank. Very interesting to know. Plants, it's hard to believe but not impossible. The plants I've had that I loved the most thrived. Mechanically caring for one doesn't have the same effect but why would a plant care about humans? It sounds really stupid to ask if plants can love each other but?!

    1. marinealways24 profile image60
      marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Hello TL, I think it is very observational that fish are conscious. Next time you see a fish tank, put your hand in the water and try to catch a fish. All of the fish swim away for viewing your hand as a threat. How do the fish know to do this without being conscious of your hand in the water? If the fish weren't conscious, they would never realize you put your hand in the water. I think the conscious or subconscious makes them realize the threat, then their reaction mechanisms kick in. I think that consciousness activates the chemicals and mechanisms that lead to the actions the same as I think with plants.

    2. ceciliabeltran profile image85
      ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      plants love each other through flowers and pollen, the spew love out to the air in spring and summer.

  12. marinealways24 profile image60
    marinealways24posted 6 years ago

    Is consciousness design or random? Is it chemical reactions that design consciousness? What designs the chemical reactions or are they random? big_smile

  13. 0
    Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago

    consciousness is "it just does".
    same as human sleep, breathing, thinking. we just do.

    1. marinealways24 profile image60
      marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      No, I think that is subconsciousness. Because we don't yet know what makes it work doesn't mean it works magically. This is a contradiction of learning what makes things work.

      1. 0
        Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        subconsciousness is still apart of consciousness.

        we do know, yet that collective of thought is not apparent -better said is dormant. People get stuck in a particular thought pattern that leads then to believe they need to know, thus keeping the fullness of knowledge dormant.

        1. marinealways24 profile image60
          marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

          No, the need to know creates emotion and passion to find out. What keeps the knowledge dormant is when you keep saying things are finite which aren't.

          1. Obscurely Diverse profile image60
            Obscurely Diverseposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Well, you're back at it again.
            Although, this thread seems less "interesting" than the one we were last on (the ongoing threads that seemed to never end), if ya know what I mean...

          2. 0
            Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Still, there are all within the parallel.

            Thought singular or collective, emotion, idea, passion, etc. are all results of chemical expressions within the mind. The term "Need To Know" is a title I use to define the contents of all human consciousness. Even if there were levels or extensions of this thing called consciousness, it would still be restricted, limited, finite to that parallel. Thus the dormancy of said extension/expressions.

            1. Obscurely Diverse profile image60
              Obscurely Diverseposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              The source of 'consciousness' is infinite; that seems to be the argument.  Why wouldn't it be infinite, when our own expanding universe & endless imagination displays the same properties of endless possibilities......

              1. 0
                Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                The source must be beyond consciousness, indeed.
                Human reflection of said source is a limited consciousness, containing all elements, information necessary, else our brains would continue to expand as the universe.
                The application of that consciousness is at present the Need To Know. Was it always this way? I highly doubt it.
                Since choice exists within and without consciousness.

                fun stuff.

                1. Obscurely Diverse profile image60
                  Obscurely Diverseposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  I think you missed the 'parallel point of thought versus the infinite universe' that I tried to make, but I'll definitely agree:  It is some fun stuff to think about!

        2. ceciliabeltran profile image85
          ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          subconscious is part of consciousness, I agree with Twenty One.
          It is attributed to the lower brain, where we store our habits and they become our programming.  It is not exactly conscious, because it just does what you tell it to for 21 days . It's awareness only goes as far as the loud sound, the image of the shadow with what looks like a knife, then it reacts. It's our reflex. Subconscious is understood, still being studied but it is understood.

    2. brianzen profile image60
      brianzenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Whoa wait that is conceptually close but ultimately not quite what we are after so let me try, Mind isn't simply "mind is" mind is miraculously the source of our being on all levels, our attention is able to manifest our mind in a seriously powerful way, it cannot cease to resolve itself to every manifestation. It ultimately discerns its own divinity, and thus subjegates the ego to the higher self, after which we can watch ourselves observe our folly of clinging to notions of self and other, all this is mind...... well or just "mind is" either way same thing.

      1. marinealways24 profile image60
        marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Brian, I agree with some of what you are saying, but not the words you are using. When we observe ourselves, I don't think this shows a separation of mind and brain, I think those are only separated by philosophy, not science. I think our ability to observe our own actions is awareness of our consciousness while most life only has ability to be aware or conscious without having ability to self analyze.

        1. brianzen profile image60
          brianzenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Perhaps a mind should be included in the framework of time beyond a lifespan, then reasonably we could come to a point within ourselves to see mind and brain are not the same. One must come before the other and a Brain must localize a mind but perhaps the mind is attached to the attention more so than to the body.

          1. ceciliabeltran profile image85
            ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            This idea was introduced by Rene Descartes in 1637. It's called Cartesian dualism. Anaesthetics contradicted this in  1890. The problem is in the definition of consciousness.

            1. marinealways24 profile image60
              marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Anaesthesia is interesting to me, but I don't know a lot about it. How does it work with consciousness so you can be conscious without feeling the pain?

        2. ceciliabeltran profile image85
          ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          The awareness of Self is coined as "the Observer"in classical psychology. It is very very different from how we define consciousness from a scientific standpoint, as it separates the "o wise one" from the one that exists within the reflex action of a lizard.

          So for purposes of clarity, are we talking about consciousness of self or consciousness in general?

          1. marinealways24 profile image60
            marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

            I think the simplest definition for consciousness is alive and the simplest for awareness is something recognizing it's alive.

            The beginning of consciousness in general. What makes all of the parts come together to create consciousness? We think the parts are conscious, but what makes them conscious? Do the parts control us or do we control the parts? If the parts are conscious, how do we know the parts aren't controlling us instead of us controlling the parts?

            The more I learn, the more questions I have. The more questions and answers I see, the more that reality seems like an illusion.

            1. Obscurely Diverse profile image60
              Obscurely Diverseposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              What, an illusion, like we are in a temporary 'hologram' of existence?  Sounds like fun...  big_smile

              1. marinealways24 profile image60
                marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                I don't know about the hologram, but if it wasn't an illusion, wouldn't we have the same realities?

                1. Cagsil profile image83
                  Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  We do have the same reality. Everyone simply refuses to see it. smile

                  1. marinealways24 profile image60
                    marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    What are the same realities? We all have a different conscious idea of what reality is. Do you have the same reality as a plant?

                2. ceciliabeltran profile image85
                  ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  well, our senses are limited to what is functional. If it is not functional we will not have the capacity to sense it. So its true, that our reality is our illusion as well. that claim is credible. we are limited by our senses. (and to just to annoy obscure even more: Dawkins said this in a recent speech on TED).

            2. ceciliabeltran profile image85
              ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Marine, a speaker of TED who is doing brain theory (lazy to check what his name is but you can google him) said that the problem with the brain is we don't have a theory, so we have so much data about it and since we don't have a theory, all we see are parts...a deluge of information that mean nothing. Like the 5 blind men and the elephant.

              Once a theory is set, then the information begins to make sense. To quote Talmud's Rabbi Elazar, once you've mastered it (the tree of life): "a man could see with it from one end of the world to the other" to quote terence mckenna of chaos, creativity and cosmic consciousness (a book) : `'the longer we talk, the more creation, imagination and chaos all seem to be the same thing.'`

              From the mouth of giants, and from own ramblings (some more nonsensical than others) the same things erupt in various levels of understanding.

              We are truly just stages of awakening embodied as our own individual human consciousness the way each aspect of life is an embodiment of a stage of life in evolution.

              faith as big as mustard seed is a teaching that though inane to more sophisticated minds,has levels of understanding that could reach as far as the wisdom behind the power of essence. Once you get to this essence, like the numbers 0 to 9, everything past that is just  a variation.

  14. marinealways24 profile image60
    marinealways24posted 6 years ago

    Does consciousness make the environment or does the environment make consciousness?

    1. Obscurely Diverse profile image60
      Obscurely Diverseposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Don't be silly..., you know that answer!

      1. marinealways24 profile image60
        marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

        I think consciousness makes everything. But I also think the environment can play a role. If I walk out of my house into the environment and see threats, I may make a conscious decision to stay inside based on the threats. The environment has a big role I think, i'm not sure how big. Maybe the environment is just an illusion created by consciousness.

        1. Obscurely Diverse profile image60
          Obscurely Diverseposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          We are what we are...and we create what we think, over time, of course...  Ha-ha!  LOL!

          1. ceciliabeltran profile image85
            ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            this is true but I don't think you have any idea why.

            1. Obscurely Diverse profile image60
              Obscurely Diverseposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              You "don't think" about a lot of things; you read. big_smile

              1. ceciliabeltran profile image85
                ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                well that's what you want to believe of course. because you believe also that you have to be better than someone. there is nothing wrong with quoting credible sources to communicate your ideas. This is how people with a journalism background operate, as well as those who have a medical/science writing background. No.1 rule in journalism, never quote yourself. I think you're an essayist, which is an altogether different mindset.

                you always spew out archetypal things that I find amusing because you have no idea that your ideas are standing upon the remnant ideas of giants, and so you fail to see just how universal they are.

                In a way, you have a bloated sense of self because of this. When you realize how universal you are, then you will know your place (and to some, your level) and you can soon become an allower and an allower is the highest manifestation of awareness. and just to annoy you, these ideas
                are from THE LAW OF ATTRACTION  the basics of the teachings of Abraham by esther and jerry hicks.

                there's nothing you can know that can't be known...all you need is love. ( that is from The Beatles)

                1. Obscurely Diverse profile image60
                  Obscurely Diverseposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Wrong!
                  I can't help that some of these "giants" were born before me and thought about similar concepts that I have; it's not my problem.
                  In the past, I have thought about many different possibilities and ideas; not everything has been thought of, by the way...  duh!

                  Damn, you typed all that in response to my half-joking statement. 
                  I was just picking at you, and there you go...getting all defensive.  You must care so much about my so-called "level," and now you're quoting the Beatles by saying "all you need is love."  ...LOL!

                  1. ceciliabeltran profile image85
                    ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    I do care. You are an aspect of me. Otherwise I wouldn't give you any attention. That is the creepy thing about consciousness. You think you are talking to an other, but you are talking to yourself.

                    all that can be known, can be known. I did not say all is known. But everything you did say in the forums your hubs, have been said before its true. The thing that makes it interesting is your take on it.

                    you are always missing the point, obscure. which is a shame.

          2. ceciliabeltran profile image85
            ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            by the way obscure, "LOL" is a direct quote from Usenet.

            1. ceciliabeltran profile image85
              ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              nothing you say has not been said before by someone certainly more well-read than you... and to quote Usenet "ROFL"

              1. Obscurely Diverse profile image60
                Obscurely Diverseposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                LOL!  That is ridiculous!  People have already said everything that I have ever said?  You sound a little bitter...  Don't be hating on my intuition!  Ha-ha!

                1. ceciliabeltran profile image85
                  ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  I don't hate your intuition. I've done lectures on the third eye in two continents. Its funny how you are not aware that really you don't know who you're talking to.

                  Everything you have ever said has been said before. Think about it. There is really no true originality. All ideas stem from universal concepts that all humans share, what makes it original is when you apply it to your own personal context, your perspective. This is widely documented. It is called ARCHETYPE.

                  the bitterness is your own, because i have nothing but interest directed at you.

                  1. Obscurely Diverse profile image60
                    Obscurely Diverseposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    I have a higher level of "awareness" when I'm not in the cloudy "forum atmospheres"...if you know what I mean.  I'm glad you cleared that up.
                    But, I consider it to be original, when it is your own ideas; sure, you can call it individual perspectives - it's all the same to me.   wink

    2. brianzen profile image60
      brianzenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Same idea roughly, If the farmer doesn't farm there is not food, (they are interrelated)

    3. Cagsil profile image83
      Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Consciousness adapts to the environment.

      1. marinealways24 profile image60
        marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

        The higher consciousness does, the lower consciousness goes extinct.

        1. Cagsil profile image83
          Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this
        2. ceciliabeltran profile image85
          ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          It does not go extinct, marine. all levels of consciousness exists concurrently but spread out in various life forms. As for our higher consciousness, it will continue to have whatever we use or need.

        3. ceciliabeltran profile image85
          ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          ofcourse that's just me...you could be right.

          1. marinealways24 profile image60
            marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

            It's possible that the consciousness gets recycled or moves to a different stage after death. I don't know. big_smile

            1. ceciliabeltran profile image85
              ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              that is a metaphysical thought that recurs in various cultures through myths and religious fancies of our luminaries. it may be true. Joseph Campbell and James Hillman will have to agree with you.

      2. ceciliabeltran profile image85
        ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        I have to agree with Cagsil that consciousness adapts to the environment, because consciousness relates to the the environment. It is responsive. (epigenetics) Which proves your point marine...he he he.

        1. 0
          Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          true. its adaptation is based on and part of assumed necessity -the consideration of the Q&A parallel. Which reinforces my work that the Need To Know syndicate aka consciousness is finite.

          Ceci, sometimes i feel the same way. Must be something in our new york water. jeje

          1. ceciliabeltran profile image85
            ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            must be! Was out today in central park, beautiful day. Pinkberry is full again.

        2. marinealways24 profile image60
          marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Thank You Cecilia. big_smile

  15. ceciliabeltran profile image85
    ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago

    Seems we moved to a new cafe but still talking about the same thing.

  16. ceciliabeltran profile image85
    ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago

    To answer the question as it is phrased:

    Hans Berger discovered two types of electrical activity known as alpha and beta waves, that seemed to be linked with key aspects of consciousness. Alpha waves oscillating 10 times a second, appeared to reflect the state of consciousness. Beta waves on the other hand were about three times faster, and reflected concentration levels and non-conscious responses like the startle reflex.

    Alpha and Beta waves are variants of electromagnetic radiation, a phenomenon that takes the form of self-propagating waves in a vacuum or in matter.

    So what makes consciousness? Simply put, well "light" does.

    (because radiation is a variant of light hence it "radiates")

    1. 0
      Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      nice!
      light is in fact the prim.
      the waves/rays that make up light, are the same that make up voice, sight, thoughts.

      spot on.

      1. ceciliabeltran profile image85
        ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        thanks for acknowledging, i thought i was howling in the wind. smile

  17. marinealways24 profile image60
    marinealways24posted 6 years ago

    Hell, I don't know, we could all just be a conscious illusion or an illusion of consciousness made to believe we are conscious when we are really unconscious. lol

    1. Obscurely Diverse profile image60
      Obscurely Diverseposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      LOL!

    2. ceciliabeltran profile image85
      ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Is everything we see or seem but a dream within a dream? (my dad loved this)

      -edgar allan poe  (who by the way did some pretty awesome predictions in his work Eureka: "In the original Unity of the First Thing lies the Secondary Cause of All Things, with the germ of their Inevitable Annihilation."

      by the way, i'm sure obscure, being connected to some weird cosmic mainframe will be pleased to know that he dedicates this to:

      "to those who feel rather than those who think--to the dreamers and those who put faith in dreams as the only realities." (Harrison 183))

      1. Obscurely Diverse profile image60
        Obscurely Diverseposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Damn!  How did you know I was connected to some weird cosmic mainframe???

        1. ceciliabeltran profile image85
          ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          because I saw your signal blinking in the ether.

      2. ceciliabeltran profile image85
        ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        edgar allan poe said this and then stephen hawking said this again as the big bang, but mathematically and speaking to mathematically minded people and people who do not feel but think.... thinking he was the first to think it up...classic.

        this is a portrait of you and me Obscure, only backwards...observe.

  18. marinealways24 profile image60
    marinealways24posted 6 years ago

    Does consciousness design the universe or does the universe design consciousness?

    I think consciousness designs the universe. big_smile

    1. ceciliabeltran profile image85
      ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      If need is the motivation for the mutation, then you have a case. A living being doesn't evolve unless it has to.

      1. marinealways24 profile image60
        marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

        And it can't react to the environment unless it was "conscious" of the environment. big_smile

        1. ceciliabeltran profile image85
          ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          agree

    2. Cagsil profile image83
      Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      The Universe created Evolution, which created Consciousness. Does that help? smile

      1. marinealways24 profile image60
        marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Consciousness creates evolution. How are you sure the universe is not a creation of conscious?

        1. brianzen profile image60
          brianzenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          It is a house of cards because without either the other is irrelevant. So because of that neither extreme is likely to be true. (as to causation)

          1. brianzen profile image60
            brianzenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Same with religion no extreme is plausible so the cards of an absolute correct is mutable.

          2. Cagsil profile image83
            Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Incorrect. Evolution exists outside of consciousness. Like Reality exists outside one's perspective. smile

          3. ceciliabeltran profile image85
            ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            reality does not exist outside one's own perspective. fact. the perspective of a bee is very different from the perspective of a human being. reality is a construct based on one's level of awareness. fact.

            1. marinealways24 profile image60
              marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

              big_smile Agreed.

        2. Cagsil profile image83
          Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Consciousness did not create Evolution. Conscious humans discovered Evolution.
          Because, I did the research to understand that the Universe created life within itself. The only way for Life to exist is through the process known as Evolution. The Earth evolved to be and hold Human life. Human life-form evolved Consciousness.

          Hope that helped. smile

          1. brianzen profile image60
            brianzenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            That may be how they are interrelated or more about when, But it had to follow a design, It occured being not a definable moment so at no one instant did it occur so the process of consciousness occuring has no finite beginning.

            1. brianzen profile image60
              brianzenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              That doesn't say that it did not evolve we are still in that process.

              1. brianzen profile image60
                brianzenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Zero begets one.

            2. Cagsil profile image83
              Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Says who?

              You're statement makes absolute no sense. Try again. smile

              1. brianzen profile image60
                brianzenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                It makes sense if you look at how evolution occurs, Need eyes and eventually they exist but without a design no neuron could simply create eyes, so consciousness is in that evolution in some way. Hope that helps

                1. brianzen profile image60
                  brianzenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  From non existence something becomes existent and as such it is an inelligent design, the process of evolution is not random.

                  1. marinealways24 profile image60
                    marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    I agree it's not random, it is conscious!

          2. ceciliabeltran profile image85
            ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            There was a time before Einstein Cagsil, that time was an independent aspect of reality.

            Now time is a dimension of space. You can find when and where an event transpired in space.

            the reality you speak of is the earth reality. Space has a different reality because of its scope.

            The only unifying reality is mathematics. Mathematics will show you that chaos organizes in a timescale, and all things are bound by the rules of chaos.
            Three scientists discussed this in a book. "CHAOS, CREATIVITY AND COSMIC CONSCIOUSNESS"

          3. ceciliabeltran profile image85
            ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Oh I am so sorry Cagsil, i thought you were a woman! I don't know why I thought that.

  19. marinealways24 profile image60
    marinealways24posted 6 years ago

    Cagsil, conscious reactions to the environment allowed life to survive and evolve.

    Humans were not the first conscious beings. lol

    I don't care how much research you did, you have little evidence of how life on the planet came to be, much less the universe.

    Conscious life evolved humans. Consciousness evolved life.

    1. brianzen profile image60
      brianzenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      That sounds correct, and Cagsil has the right idea it just doesn't allow for anything beyond his view of it which is his right. I think we all require different perspective on what ultimately we are all just reasoning at. As time goes by. Science lends us as much as philosophy or "whatever" when it comes to a direction to move in and Cagsil makes a ton of good points. (partcularly around zealots)

    2. Cagsil profile image83
      Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Our CONSCIOUSNESS(human) wasn't known in anything other than humans and to think it was is asinine. wink

      1. brianzen profile image60
        brianzenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        I guess it really is one way to feel about it, and I appreciate your side of it. I feel similar about most of what you say but for me this feels like a reasonable way to look at it. And dude I really like the passion you have for this subject we could really debate this forever. I will say I never said it was human consciousness so the asinine remark seems misplaced. just that some kind of intelligence is required to see the need in a fish or a bird to adapt. That fits the consciousness mold if it is able to effect the neurology and create changes. That by supposition is intelligent design.

        1. Cagsil profile image83
          Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Was I talking to you? No! I wasn't. I was talking to marine. You took my post from another conversation, for who, it was intended and twisted to be about you.

          I didn't say you said anything.

      2. marinealways24 profile image60
        marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

        All life is conscious. What makes you think that only humans are conscious?

        1. Cagsil profile image83
          Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          You love to play with words. I said Consciousness(human). Or are you having a problem reading the context of the words you don't want to read.

          Even the planet has a consciousness in it. Evolution proves the Earth is still evolving, meaning it is alive. If it is alive, then it has some level of consciousness.

          However, human consciousness is the exception. You don't seriously think plant actually have a though process? You don't think that animals, such as cats and dogs are conscious enough to think for oneself?

          You've got to be kidding. Plants and animals are consciously tied into the Earth or otherwise known as Nature.

          1. brianzen profile image60
            brianzenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            I suppose we could then ask from where that non human consciousness is derived, perhaps in future discussion (since we are still on this) That to me is a topic.

            1. Cagsil profile image83
              Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              That is what Marine asked in the first place. smile wink

              Edit: the Universe exists, therefore so does Evolution. smile

              1. brianzen profile image60
                brianzenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                I guess I got here just in time then, (thanks again by the way, and I saw what you added later in my makeover stuff, I will be editing for awhile but it was a huge help, I consider you a friend out here even if we differ on views and don't you forget it!)

          2. marinealways24 profile image60
            marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Cagsil

            If a plant or animal is conscious, it has consciousness, same thing.

            You say the earth is conscious, but believe plants and other animals aren't?

            I agree we are an exception. This is because of speech and writing. If we didn't have these, we would still be on the same playing field as all other animals.

            1. Cagsil profile image83
              Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Are you sure of that?
              Correct, because animals are not conscious or aware of themselves or their own existence. Their consciousness is tied to nature. It's not an individual thinking consciousness. Is that better. wink
              Our consciousness is our awareness of our own existence. You cannot be conscious and NOT be aware. Granted, there are some really unaware people to certain aspects of life, but not life itself.

              Every single human being knows that they are alive, simply because they woke up from being asleep. If you didn't wake up, you wouldn't know you were alive. smile

              1. marinealways24 profile image60
                marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Yes, individual consciousness compared to group consciousness makes your thought clearer. But I wouldn't rule out that all life has the possibility of an individual consciousness to some extent.

                The only reason us or anyone knows we are alive is because of consciousness. big_smile

                1. Jewels profile image81
                  Jewelsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Because of awareness.  If consciousness = life, then one has to be aware that it is conscious.

                  1. marinealways24 profile image60
                    marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    If we wasn't conscious, we couldn't be aware of our awareness. Consciousness comes first.

                  2. 0
                    Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    consciousness = awareness.
                    'life' presumed exists only within the finite mandate of said parameter.

                    Free will is beyond consciousness, yet engages it (rather is forced/drawn in to the parallel) by that necessity. Else, the Q & A of human consciousness would be complete and the totality of Free Will would be that Life.

              2. Jewels profile image81
                Jewelsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Cagsil, most people walk around like sleepers and are not awake or aware at all.  So getting up in the morning doesn't give you a free pass to being aware.

                1. Cagsil profile image83
                  Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  One doesn't need to play mystic to be aware either. wink

                  1. Jewels profile image81
                    Jewelsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    When you understand memes and their hold on people, and peoples lack of awareness as to themselves being unconsciously emboiled in them, you then see how unaware people really are.  Free thinking is only free thinking when you have unravelled your reason for doing what you're doing, void of your parental and pier influences.  Most people have no idea what a meme is and how very quickly one is influenced by one.

                    This level of awareness is not at all mysterious.   The more dumbing down that is done, the harder it will be to see..

                  2. ceciliabeltran profile image85
                    ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Cagsil will not get this, she needs to fall in love.

                  3. ceciliabeltran profile image85
                    ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Jewels is not playing mystic, awareness is not a mystical thing. It has been studied for a long time. We even know the age that a baby becomes self aware as do apes. For babies its around 4 months. For apes, I think it's much later.

                    mysticism is only mystical until its understood. light used to be mystical now they're photons. consciousness used to be mystical, now they're waves of electromagnetism. night and day used to mystical, now its orbit. the stars used to be mystical, now they're faraway suns. love used to be mystical, now its PEA and oxytocin.

                    These things have not lost their power to affect and inspire us, but they now have modern day names that we can objectify. Knowledge used to be mystical itself, until we replicated it in computers and made it pass through fiber-optics. Even mystical experiences are now a product of the pineal gland. there is a logical objective side to everything. But you cannot get to ever understanding it if you don't use observe your subjectivity objectively...that is what jewels is trying to say.

                  4. Obscurely Diverse profile image60
                    Obscurely Diverseposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Cagsil, I think you've wandered into grounds you do not understand nor are ready for.  This is not 6th grade Science class and this is not 'pre-school philo' sessions, either.
                    I've read through these threads (especially through Marine's "other" evolution forum/debate), and much to my original opinion, you do not have a clue what a few of us are talking about.
                    We understand that you don't, but hopefully, you'll eventually get off your high horse of all-knowing assumptions and realize that you have a lot to learn.  You might have the ignorant majority fooled, but some of us silently laugh at things that even the so-called "overly educated ones" are not aware of.  Side note:  not that you are overly educated or anything - ha-ha!
                    Anyway, try to show some respect towards the individuals that are in touch with deeper meanings about their own existence and have a stronger awareness for things that you don't even know about!  Maybe you need to keep it simple and just make fun of the religious freaks, but you're on the wrong forum for that.  Life doesn't stop at your front door; many thanks...  wink

              3. ceciliabeltran profile image85
                ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                SOME ANIMALS HAVE BEEN FOUND TO BE SELF-AWARE. some operate on reflex, which is a level of self awareness. it is atleast aware that something is going to eat it if it doesn't scoot.

                1. Cagsil profile image83
                  Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  That's the interpretation those who have studied animals make it appear to be. It's not actually true. wink

                  1. ceciliabeltran profile image85
                    ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Oh are you talking to me now? Are you sure? source, please.

                  2. ceciliabeltran profile image85
                    ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    explain why an ape would look at its face in the mirror and inspect it.

  20. brianzen profile image60
    brianzenposted 6 years ago

    As for the evolution thing who has read the Darwin revisited essays at columbia?

    1. ceciliabeltran profile image85
      ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      any news?

  21. marinealways24 profile image60
    marinealways24posted 6 years ago

    If all conscious life on earth evolved from conscious organisms that arrived on meteorites or comets, isn't it pretty likely that those comets or meteorites could have been consciously sent to land on earth?

    1. Jewels profile image81
      Jewelsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I'd add more to this discussion but have done so on numerous occasions.  There is great work being done on mapping consciousness.  Awareness and Consciousness are two different things.  Awareness is perhaps the key to your questions, and ask then how does one become more aware of broader states of consciousness?  A method has to be established, which has, but is not for everyone.  It actually takes focused discernment and major awareness of your own body to see how it works as an organism.  Then to see how the interaction of thoughts impacts on the body.  Not supposition, but awareness of the mechanisms.

      The ability to separate the organic from thought processes is major in  understanding different states of consciousness.

      1. ceciliabeltran profile image85
        ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        well, awareness seems to be a stage of consciousness. You can slice and dice it but it is an aspect of the other. They are not the same I agree but you can argue that one gives birth to the other and vice versa.

        1. Jewels profile image81
          Jewelsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Regardless of whether it is 'the gods' who do the pushing,

          A force is something that pushes.  Is the force that which starts the engine or fuels it, or both?  And at what part of the human body does this force first enter?

          Therefore the question becomes: What is the force that animates/stimulates the human body?

          and

          What gave the  animated body the ability to be aware of itself and forge will?

          1. ceciliabeltran profile image85
            ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            all interesting questions. that is as yet the stuff of Frankenstein. but what indeed? what gave life the impetus to live? it started to balance itself and organize and then it began to self-perpetuate and insist on keeping the information it has gathered to self-perpetuate.

          2. marinealways24 profile image60
            marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Jewels, on what stimulates us, I think it is the emotions that stimulate the consciousness. There is a lot of emotions tied into competition, I think competition raises consciousness to higher levels. There is competition in sexual selection, animals consciously change shapes and colors over time in competition to attract the most mates.

            This probably wasn't what you was looking for, but I think it is amazing and also clearly shows the fact that "consciousness designs evolution"!

            1. marinealways24 profile image60
              marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Competition is also seen in sperm. big_smile

              1. marinealways24 profile image60
                marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Sperm are conscious. big_smile

          3. Jewels profile image81
            Jewelsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Emotions are the response to stimuli, but not the stimuli.

            In many cases emotions are the reaction and not the flow to that stimuli.  There is a difference between a feeling and emotion.  Interesting how when separating out or mapping consciousness you then see differences in what would be grouped as one.

            I agree competition, envy, jealousy does raise a persons level of awareness, like the gas has been turned up on the burner.

            Is it consciousness that designs evolution or awareness and the will to survive?

            Sperm is a good example.  Do you as a human feel you have control of your sperm's ability to compete?   Ponder that one over your porridge.

            1. marinealways24 profile image60
              marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

              There wouldn't be awareness or will to survive without consciousness. Again, it is consciousness that designs evolution. big_smile Awareness and survival are also important, but neither would be possible without consciousness.

              No, I don't think I could control all of the sperm, maybe my genetics would have some role, but I think all would also have their own consciousness to some extent. Also, if I was dead or unconscious, they would be dead and unconscious. That is a tricky question.

              1. Obscurely Diverse profile image60
                Obscurely Diverseposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                An easy answer to her last couple of questions is:  life will find a way through whatever means via universal awareness and/or consciousness.

                1. marinealways24 profile image60
                  marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Conscious life finds a way. big_smile

              2. Jewels profile image81
                Jewelsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                It's not so much a tricky question.  It's separating life force, organic body bits and pieces from your thoughts and then seeing what drives what.

                You have changed your thoughtforms that Consciousness does not equal life?

                Consciousness and awareness of being conscious are different levels of consciousness.

                1. 0
                  Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  {bites tongue}

                2. marinealways24 profile image60
                  marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Jewels, well said, I agree on the first sentence. No, I still think consciousness drives life, why did you think I changed it? I also agree on your last sentence. big_smile

    2. ceciliabeltran profile image85
      ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      the diameter of that thing that collided with earth to create the moon was Phi in proportion to the earth....interesting huh?

    3. Dale Nelson profile image27
      Dale Nelsonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Hi Marine Always and Cagsil

      Found something relating to your plant discussion. Google a guy named Cleve Backster and plant research. His thesis is based around his discovery and experiments (proven ) that plants have concious ability and awareness.

      Hope it sheds some light. Stiil trying to find something worthwhile to contribute.

      Dale

      1. ceciliabeltran profile image85
        ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Thanks dale, will do it. i'm interested in these things even if i'm not marine nor cagsil.

        1. Dale Nelson profile image27
          Dale Nelsonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          My apologies Cecilia, Hope I didnt offend you. Was generalising to the excerpt used.

          1. ceciliabeltran profile image85
            ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            not at all!

      2. marinealways24 profile image60
        marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Thank You Dale. I would like to be surprised, but i'm not. I think plant consciousness is observable by everyone, not just experimenting scientists. I also think it is obvious that plants have consciousness of their environment or they wouldn't survive the environment. big_smile

      3. Cagsil profile image83
        Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        roll

        1. ceciliabeltran profile image85
          ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Also, back bends and fish poses, any expansive movements 20 minutes a day to alleviate any chest conditions. If you have asthma, avoid dairy products and drink lots of coconut juice.

        2. ceciliabeltran profile image85
          ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          long hands, hunched chest, loves cats, likes a good beer, good to mom, hates dad, good with electronics, hates the outdoors, has a few but very close good friends, confidante but does not confide.

  22. 60
    mpchekuriposted 6 years ago

    being aware of what you are doing.

    1. ceciliabeltran profile image85
      ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Yes, being aware of what and why!

  23. marinealways24 profile image60
    marinealways24posted 6 years ago

    Could an example of matter being conscious be the same as a synapse? I could be wrong, but what I know about synapse which sparks consciousness is that empty matter is joined by either chemical or electrical stimulus which then joins the neurons. Out of the empty space, we get consciousness. How much credibility does this have towards saying consciousness in matter is possible?


    "The microscopic space between the dendrites of two neurons across which chemical neurotransmitters carry messages from one neuron to the other. close window
    memory.ucsf.edu/glossary.html" One definition for synapse.

    1. Obscurely Diverse profile image60
      Obscurely Diverseposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      A synapse is just a bridge in which one impulse crosses over to another; simple stuff, here.

      1. marinealways24 profile image60
        marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

        The bridge is not connected. It is empty space. The synapse is not simple, it's what creates your thoughts and actions.

        1. Obscurely Diverse profile image60
          Obscurely Diverseposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Yes it is!  It is a dynamic firing of thought processes in the brain!

          1. Obscurely Diverse profile image60
            Obscurely Diverseposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            To over-analyze a synapse, is to over-analyze a natural path.

            1. marinealways24 profile image60
              marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

              big_smile Alright. What makes the synapse happen. How does it know where to make the connections to bridge the gap? Why is there a gap? Wouldn't it make more sense for them to already be connected?

              1. Obscurely Diverse profile image60
                Obscurely Diverseposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Yeah, it is called consciousness through an endless path...  duh!

                1. marinealways24 profile image60
                  marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  It is not an endless path. What about the synapse in a person that is old, i'm pretty sure the path slows down.

                  1. Obscurely Diverse profile image60
                    Obscurely Diverseposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Sure it is...  It was a metaphor for our infinite existence of never-ending synapses within our dividends from the infinite splits that originated from one unity.  Duh?!  ...Ya know?

  24. marinealways24 profile image60
    marinealways24posted 6 years ago

    I just wanted to make sure that everyone seen me write that sperm are conscious. big_smile
    Conscious life starts at the sperm.

    1. Obscurely Diverse profile image60
      Obscurely Diverseposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      As much as I push for humanoid "population control" on this particular planet that is filled with the utmost discombobulating properties, this is unfortunately true...  Although, I was aware way before I incarnated, once again, through sperm...  Ha-ha!

      1. marinealways24 profile image60
        marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

        big_smile Thank You.

  25. marinealways24 profile image60
    marinealways24posted 6 years ago

    One more idea to add...

    I think competition for higher consciousness is what drives evolution and life.

  26. waynet profile image47
    waynetposted 6 years ago

    The eyes and ears of a whisper!

  27. 0
    Deborah Sextonposted 6 years ago

    Consciousness is self awareness (knowledge of one's own character, feelings, motives, and desires and of one's surroundings). It comes about through the five senses and emotions controlled by the interaction of the left brain (analytical thought). and by the subconscious because the conscious mind can only live in the moment and has no memory without the support of the right brain (creative thought and the emotions).

    1. marinealways24 profile image60
      marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Again, consciousness is not limited to just humans. Plants have consciousness of the environment and don't have brains.

      1. 0
        Deborah Sextonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Plants have DNA..The root is their so called brain.and the genomes throughout the plant.(AGAIN..you're statement back at you) Plants  react to the environment. Plants do not have self awareness in the same way as humans do.  Prove this...

        Everything that lives has DNA and genetic material that acts as a  brain though it is not like the human brain.

        If you think my definition of human consciousness is wrong..please take some medical and biology courses.

        1. marinealways24 profile image60
          marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

          lol I don't need to take medical or biology courses to know your definition isn't absolute. It's funny you claim yours is when most scientists and biologist leave it to philosophy. Maybe you should take some more courses. I think plants have conscious cells just as humans, this is how they make conscious reactions to the environment. It takes the DNA to get the brain. There is consciousness in DNA also. Go back to school. lol

          1. 0
            Deborah Sextonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            lol lol lol

        2. ceciliabeltran profile image85
          ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Oh Hi Deborah, but no, no...it is not the genome. It's the membrane that is the brain. The brain is that which senses the outside world no?
          The genome is the gonads. When you take it out the cell will continue to live but not reproduce or replicate its proteins. Also, marine, the consciousness is not in the DNA, the information gathered by the organism's awareness of itself/outside world is stored in the DNA. You are not like your sperm (hahahaha) Or gonads (hahahahahaha)

          The idea that the regulatory proteins react to environment even suggest that as basic as the proteins that organize as strings to be able to move in snake-like motions (the are called nanosnakes), consciousness of the environment is already present. its rudimentary but it is awareness of self versus outside world.

          It's called Epigenetics. The thing that we really to agree need on is definition. Is consciousness the ability to make an accurate model of the outside world (or reality) or is it awareness of self even if it does not know the outside world?  If hellen keller cannot feel or walk around, will she considered conscious?

          Without the senses, will your brain learn and store memory?

          1. 0
            Deborah Sextonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Oh Hi, I hate to disagree with you because we have the Kabbalah in common. However. plants do not have self awareness. Plants react to their environment and survive against great odds. When the genes of a plant mutates to adapt to the environment, they pass it down to their offspring even when the offspring isn't subjected to the same harsh environment. This occurs through the Genomes. Plants are not self-aware as humans are as Marine whatever has indicated. This is what I learned in my six years of study.
            Consciousness is in the communication of the left and right sides of the brain through the five senses and emotions.. It is the mind's awareness of itself and its surroundings. It is the EGO the Id and the Superego. Awareness is due to every part of the central nervous system and the storehouse of memory.  Consciousness is also in DNA and Stem cells. The Vagus Nerves are cranial nerves that extend from the brain into the body to supply the organs and stomach, but these nerves also make the brain aware of the body. It crisscrosses  back up and enters the brain again. When the connection of the vagus nerve from the brain to the body and back into the brain is broken, the brain may not be aware (conscious) of certain parts of the body. It takes the complete memory cells working together.
            Yes Helen Keller would still be conscious although she couldn't see.. However she could taste, feel, and sense. A baby has to develop this consciousness through observation and feelings.

            We can live and not be aware (Conscious) we can be in a coma and brain-dead.

            1. marinealways24 profile image60
              marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Explain how plants react to the environment without being conscious of the environment. You say it mutates/reacts, how does it mutate without consciousness? They consciously pass their genes to the conscious threats of the environment. They can't adapt without consciousness of the environment. Your 6 years of study are worthless if you can't think beyond what you have read. All life is conscious, not just humans. I never said plants had the same level of consciousness as humans, don't misquote me. Memory is not possible without consciousness, again go back to school. It takes consciousness to replicate DNA. Yes, we can live without being conscious, but we can't live without being subconscious.

              1. 0
                Deborah Sextonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                lol Don't step on the grass it might try to trip you.lol

                1. Obscurely Diverse profile image60
                  Obscurely Diverseposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Woo-woo...

                2. marinealways24 profile image60
                  marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Deborah, That is pathetic. A concept you can't understand of all life and cells being conscious and you make an immature joke. It's not my fault you went to school and paid all your money and still can't read outside of the books. If you would like to write something of meaning of why you don't think all life and cells are conscious, I am all eyes and conscious of what you have.  big_smile

                  If you had an open mind, you wouldn't make jokes of something that opens up new doors. Your door is closed if it's not through the textbook.

                3. Obscure Divine profile image60
                  Obscure Divineposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  That was sheer folly; thanks Deborah.  neutral

            2. Obscurely Diverse profile image60
              Obscurely Diverseposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Deborah, you just proved your so-called "knowledge" to be meaningless.  College education does no good, if you are mechanical in thought and lost throughout the process.  Textbooks have seriously caused brain damage to a many individual, that were dependent upon them.
              I'd recommend that you "free your mind" of prior hogwash and set out for a new perspective, and hopefully one that is more aware...  Dang!

              1. 0
                Deborah Sextonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Really.lol.it is the mechanism. How do you assume consciousness comes about?
                Do you think you can know anything without the brain?
                The conscious mind (left side) has no memory and has to depend on the right side for that.

                1. Obscurely Diverse profile image60
                  Obscurely Diverseposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  You really are dumbly limited to textbooks.
                  By what you say, the tiny "brain" within the Homo sapiens is the ultimate universe...  You really don't think very deep, do ya?
                  Where in the hell do you think this "brain" evolved from?
                  In fact, the brain can act as a limiting barrier to most; you have it all backwards.  The universal totality of awareness is already there, but you block yourself through your own struggling brain - due to your mechanical thoughts of tunnel visions.

                  1. 0
                    Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    as we say in new york: bada-bing!

                  2. 0
                    JoelMcLendonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Maybe you should take it easy and act like an adult.
                    The question was what makes consciousness. It is correct that if a person has consciousness out there somewhere they can't be aware of self unless they can perceive the mind and you do that with the brain as stated. It takes a brain to know yourself. I believe in reincarnation myself yet I know most do not remember their past lives unless they ascend their consciousness. Why do you think we have a brain and body. It is to embody the spirit.
                    Deborah is aware there is consciousness beyond the brain but the brain is needed to be aware of the consciousness.

                    No one said the universe is the brain I believe the statement was the brain is needed to become aware..

                    According to the rules, there should be no personal attacks. Calling someone dumb is not allowed here. If you disagree, fine but none of the childish outbursts. Maybe you should read over what was said so you can understand.
                    Someone who practices and teaches the Kabbalah is very versed in the mind beyond the brain.

                2. marinealways24 profile image60
                  marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Deborah, is it a conscious mechanism or an unconscious mechanism? big_smile Admit defeat already, it's ok. Sorry they didn't teach you your cells and all life is conscious when you went to college. Deborah, how about explaining how all other life that doesn't have a brain ever remembers things to pass on in evolution without a consciousness.

                  1. 0
                    JoelMcLendonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Why would she admit defeat? She has already stated it takes both the conscious and subconscious. The left conscious analytical mind and the right creative mind. The left side uses logic. It is the part of the brain that acts as a guard at the door to the subconscious. If the conscious mind sees something as fact it stores it in the subconscious (storehouse of memory) The subconscious continues to feed it back to the conscious mind as fact. This becomes our reality even if what we have stored as fact is not fact.
                    You do know when we refer to the conscious left brain..we are not saying the left brain is consciousness. It means it is the thoughts/brain we are more aware of. So your put down of her shows you have no understanding. What you call consciousness is really referred to as awareness.
                    The DNA (self-replicating material in all life forms) in plants (that you call consciousness) makes for instance, a leaf a leaf and it will never change to a stem. This is how the plant adapts. The DNA replicates and makes changes where needed.
                    Plants do not have IDS, EGOS nor Superegos as humans do.
                    You have twisted everything that has been said but you do that a lot don't you?

    2. Jewels profile image81
      Jewelsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      You can have consciousness beyond the five senses and beyond the functioning of the brain.

      1. Dale Nelson profile image27
        Dale Nelsonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Is it possible that conciousness is a sixth sense connecting all living beings. If we assume that the physical entity is overlapped by the conciousness which is stronger at its source and dilutes as it moves towards other central sources of conciousness. This would explain the interconnectivity and overlapping of the conciousness held by each living thing. The point is that they can not be seperated from the living entity until the entity is no longer living.

        1. ceciliabeltran profile image85
          ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          have you heard of the macaques that suddenly started washing their potatoes, then the macaques in the opposite island started doing the same. It's a famous study. Biologists are baffled.

          1. 0
            JoelMcLendonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            That was proven to not be true. They have tested this theory over and over.

            1. Jewels profile image81
              Jewelsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              I'm not talking about the hundredth monkey syndrome, and yes it has been refuted.

            2. Obscure Divine profile image60
              Obscure Divineposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Do you play too much golf, or something?

            3. ceciliabeltran profile image85
              ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Oh you mean this : http://www.skepdic.com/monkey.html?

              But Carl Sagan and Ann Druyan Shadows of Forgotten Ancestor explained the genius macaque IMO and the entire process in detail, though they presumed a macaque swam to the next island.

              It was cited as late as 2008, as far as I can say... http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/ima … nnovation.

              I think the skeptics were disproving the conclusions of watson more than the event of the macaques itself.

  28. 0
    Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago

    the spirit of a man is the energy stasis, apart of the human being.
    this energy is directly connected to the universe, its understanding and ability -apart from mind/body.
    the energy of the human spirit allows for one to exceed all consciousness and necessity -making it superior to the others.

    said energy is transmitted into the mind -where it is processed (like endless doors opening and closing. Afterward, the mind emits commands to the body. The body is action and reaction. The reaction is recorded by the mind and transmitted to the spirit.

    1. marinealways24 profile image60
      marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Thank You for finally acknowledging that the subjective is before the objective. big_smile

  29. 0
    Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago

    Faith is beyond any 'ective'.
    to imply faith has necessity is just plain silly.
    what need does faith have that would cause it to be subjective.
    it is only drawn into subjection -against its will- by the imposing consciousness.

    believers don't get it either. sucks, but true.

    ps, there is o such thing as sub-conscious.
    all consciousness is sub-jective.

    1. marinealways24 profile image60
      marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Again, Faith is subjective, faith is belief in something without requiring objective evidence. Not to say faith can't turn objective, but it starts subjective.

      1. 0
        Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        the application of what is defined as 'faith' is priori.

        Free Will-Faith does not need to exist within the consciousness, it is a 'stand alone' entity.
        It is caused to be objective, absorptive or reflective ( the très priori) by consciousness, to satisfy the need of that parallel.

        Else, humans would exceed their thought-sensation parallels.

    2. ceciliabeltran profile image85
      ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      i have to agree with all consciousness is subjective bit. Though Free-Will by definition which includes the word WILL implies consciousness. Will is intent, meaning the direction of movement is predetermined. Free-Will is not Faith. In Early Christian terms, Faith meant Certainty. (It is only now that it has become close your eyes and cross your fingers, wish for the best.)The Certainty of a mustard seed,  so to speak...the certainty of essence with the absolute disregard for the distractions of too much details, too many parameters. When you know the essence, you know the entire thing.

      This is the idea behind fractal geometry, everything is self-similar in infinite scopes. The tree is the forest, each small branch a portrait of the tree. Mandelbroth Fractals.

      Which brings me back to consciousness. If Fractal math holds true (and it has been consistently proven to be so) Then the fact that WE are conscious will just show that those spiny little proteins wriggling in unicellular organisms that clustered to eventually form us is conscious too.

      Anybody wants to argue with Mandelbroth, bring it on.

      1. 0
        Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        I know this. Been a few minutes since I studied it. Also believed that within the seed of a tree is the impression of the tree full grown...

        But again, within the stasis of consideration or consciousness, humans seem deadlocked. And rightly so. Consciousness is by all measures an impasse.

        Free Will-Faith exists beyond consciousness because it does not need to consider. All information humans have has always been there, dormant but still there. No one is actually learning 'new things' only reassigning information, rebuilding strings of  said parallel. It is within this database of information -both sensation & logic- that man has been enslaved. Which brings us back to the Need To Know syndication and the possibility of superseding it.

        1. Obscurely Diverse profile image60
          Obscurely Diverseposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          How can no one ever learn new things, when the entire visible universe demonstrates a constant change?  Stellar birth & death, recycling, and new formations are constantly occuring.  One could say, the truth is always changing; yesterday was a lie; today is the truth, and tomorrow is a promise.
          But then again, I can also read what you said in a different way.
          Maybe you're referring to the universal totality of all awareness.

          1. 0
            Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            OD, exactly. Humans have universal totality.

            The notion we 'need to learn' is false, in that we already know.
            What we do is simply re-activate an otherwise dormant knowledge/understanding.
            This is where humans get stuck and where the Battle of the Conscious begins. From the moment we assume not to know, we plunge down the proverbial rabbit hole.

            No one person is 'smarter' than another. All are equal. All have the same information within. All have the same genetics, elements, etc. We lack no knowledge. We only assume so because we indulge the thought -or allow it to control us. And by the massive and varied perspectives of even a single thought, humans assume having learned something new or exceeding another.

            The notion of instinct is simply a bootstrap program within that allows a child just born to know it wants milk. Immediately they begin to suckle. All the necessary data is there already and is not required to be considered or learned.

            Consciousness is the syndication concept -the Need To Know at its root.

            1. marinealways24 profile image60
              marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

              What do we already know? We only recently discovered evolution on the human timescale, we still don't know what caused it to start. Do you have the answer without making an assumption?
              I don't know why you think no one person is smarter than the other, that is a nice euphoric philosophy and all, but it is incorrect. Some people have awareness to raise their consciousness while others seem content with a lower consciousness. There are different levels of consciousness. All do not have the same genetics, I think every individual consciousness has something individual to contribute to the whole. You are assuming all people are exactly the same, then preaching about not assuming.
              Something new can be learned everyday. Because most is recycled doesn't make it absolute that all is recycled. Instinct is not a boot program, is a subconscious program. The data is already there because there is conscious memory within the cells. You can't need to know anything without being conscious. big_smile

              1. 0
                Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                big_smile
                and again, marine, all of which you refer is within that stasis -consciousness. Therefore, that 'philos' is accurate, even as you express it. The particular angle or perception does not alter the core of, it only manifests the dormant logic, notion, parallel, information. This is why I support the claim of human totality with regard to information/knowledge. Just because those parallels of the syndication surfaced in some for or fashion (i.e. evolution, chocolate marshmallows, DNA sequencing) does not suggest it was not already there.

                The programming is complete, humans DO know. We assume or prefer to accept we do not. Hence also, why we consider 'levels' of intellect or consciousness. When those 'levels' are simply an activation of something already existing within consciousness.

                The considerations within consciousness are many -seemingly infinite- but both complete and limited to said stasis.

                Still within the syndicate, all humans are equal.

                1. Jewels profile image81
                  Jewelsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Regardless of whether the programming is complete, why would one not want to bring the core status of being into our conscious awareness?  Is it easier to be a sleeper?  It's not about winning the race to be smarter or more aware than another, but this is no reason not to achieve high levels of consciousness.

                  1. 0
                    Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    i am not disagreeing on that, Jewels. Perhaps i am overstating the obvious. Humans do know -which is why the Ism has such difficulty. One side of the hemi says logic, the other sensation. Both together could express a totality, when allowed.

                    Even better: when the consideration beyond the syndication is applied -the Free Will Factor aka Faith-Grace- apart from that stasis, then absolutely, the collective consciousness would again be complete in each person. The Need To Know would seize to be the assumed totality and be, once more, the tool rather than the teacher.

                    No matter how grand or minute the level of consciousness be, it will always be limited to itself. Every human who has ever existed knows everything they need to. Which is why I said no one person is 'more' intelligent than another. Perhaps one re-activated a dormant parallel or one did not. And don't forget the parallels of the trè priori can seem infinite, depending on the perspective.

                    The Syndicate is that stasis. The Q & A.
                    Perhaps I should have added this sooner: it is not necessary to consider a question nor its opponent, an answer. both are the base relative parallels which cause the syndication -that is the Need To Know.

                  2. Obscure Divine profile image60
                    Obscure Divineposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Jewels rules!  wink

                2. ceciliabeltran profile image85
                  ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  I agree with Twenty One Days, on a lot of points.

  30. Dale Nelson profile image27
    Dale Nelsonposted 6 years ago

    The spirit-self responsible for the conciousness is not faith relyant as it is merely a gatherer of information. The physical self utilises the spirit-self to formulate its rationale.

    Thus conciousness is not an emotion. The physical self eventually reaches a plateau in life whereby the spirit-self requires new information.This stage enables the spirit-self to encourage conciousness to grow.The conciousness can store information based on faith, but can not use faith to exist.

  31. 0
    lyricsingrayposted 6 years ago

    what truly makes consciousness is consciousness, just a tid bit of info big_smile

    1. Obscurely Diverse profile image60
      Obscurely Diverseposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      That was so "deep" that I nearly fell out of my chair laughing at this shallow tidbit which represents the tenacious bind of the majority of mankind!   LMAO!  LOL!  Ha-ha!

      1. Obscure Divine profile image60
        Obscure Divineposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        That is one hell of a welcome mat, that you displayed!

    2. shazwellyn profile image83
      shazwellynposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      welcome home lyrics x

  32. Obscurely Diverse profile image60
    Obscurely Diverseposted 6 years ago

    Joel McLendon posted 26 seconds ago:
    Your opinions are your opinions. Her's are her's. She is a very solid rock and has a good heart. You have no idea. She deserves respect.

    Okay, Joel.
    In case the "people" don't know, Joel is Deborah Sexton's husband...and he currently has no hubs nor does he proclaim to want to even take part in the hub-making community, but only to take up for his wife.  Joel is simply acting as HubPages forum filter and moderator due to personal bias - which leads to the destruction of the original free-formed nature of forums to begin with!
    Here is someone (if you read some of his past remarks) that threatens others for personal attacks, and isn't really even a "member" of HubPages.  Ha-ha!

    1. Obscure Divine profile image60
      Obscure Divineposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Ain't that the damn truth!

  33. marinealways24 profile image60
    marinealways24posted 6 years ago

    Happy Weekend to everyone. big_smile

    1. Obscure Divine profile image60
      Obscure Divineposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I hope so...  big_smile

  34. TLMinut profile image61
    TLMinutposted 6 years ago

    About the macaques, I see someone already responded to that, biologists are NOT baffled by the mythical addition to the reports. And about all cells being conscious, there is no reason to think that's true, is there? I've never found anything other than hypotheses that are being tested. Plants show no sign of consciousness when consciousness is defined as "being aware of being aware". Osmosis, diffusion, genetic inheritance, all can be explained by mechanical or electrochemical means.

    On the other hand, the one time in my life that God revealed "himself" to me, I saw that all things are connected, all life. In EVERYTHING. I can only call this subjective knowledge because it makes no real sense, no scientific sense but it was there anyway. Maybe this is what the ancients meant when writing things like God is everywhere; in him we live and move and have our being; I AM is one. THE very life force that is.
    So now everything I know and understand is open yet again.

    1. marinealways24 profile image60
      marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      In 1835, before the final cell theory was developed, Jan Evangelista Purkyně observed small "granules" while looking at the plant tissue through a microscope. The cell theory, first developed in 1839 by Matthias Jakob Schleiden and Theodor Schwann, states that all organisms are composed of one or more cells, that all cells come from preexisting cells, that vital functions of an organism occur within cells, and that all cells contain the hereditary information necessary for regulating cell functions and for transmitting information to the next generation of cells.[3]
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_(biology)

      Well, something unconscious does not multiply by itself. Do you have a child while unconscious? All cells contain hereditary information because they contain memory. Memory is not possible without consciousness. You can't remember an environment or how to respond to threats if you have no conscious memory of the threats. There is no such thing as mechanical without a consciousness or subconscious memory. You believe in a God, but all life having a consciousness is beyond you? lol This makes 0 sense. Why do you assume it takes a belief in God to raise consciousness?

  35. TLMinut profile image61
    TLMinutposted 6 years ago

    QUOTE:
    The DNA replicates and makes changes where needed.

    ------------
    I don't at all believe that plants are conscious (no reason to believe it, with reason I could change my mind), but this very statement implies that DNA itself is aware. Just the phrasing perhaps?

    1. 0
      JoelMcLendonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Our whole argument is that plants are not aware. So how did you read anything else into it?

      Plants have DNA and plants have for millions of years adapted to harsh environment, then sending that adaption in it's DNA to it's offspring. This is a fact. Look it up.
      Not once have we said plants are aware of themselves, rather the opposite.

      1. TLMinut profile image61
        TLMinutposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        I know the facts, I don't need to look it up, I merely responded to the one sentence. Specifically to the phrasing of that one sentence where you stated that DNA makes changes where needed. My point is that phrasing it that way implies DNA being aware of its surroundings consciously and deciding what changes are required.

        I didn't say anything about plants being conscious.

        1. marinealways24 profile image60
          marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

          If the plants weren't conscious, they wouldn't be alive. big_smile
          DNA remembers information. This is impossible without a conscousness of the past. If so, explain please.

    2. marinealways24 profile image60
      marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I think DNA  have some level of consciousness. The chemical transmissions in a synapse produce consciousness in the first place, why is it so hard to believe that the DNA molecules could have a level of consciousness. There is proof of plants making evolutionary changes out of sexual selection and survival in the environment. The changes are not possible without a consciousness or awareness of the environment.

  36. TLMinut profile image61
    TLMinutposted 6 years ago

    Oh, I HAD to laugh at this!!

    --------
    Do you have a child while unconscious?
    -------

    ...the dream of most women after the first one...

    1. marinealways24 profile image60
      marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      lol Thanks, I laughed at it too.

      1. Obscure Divine profile image60
        Obscure Divineposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        LOL!

  37. TLMinut profile image61
    TLMinutposted 6 years ago

    QUOTE:
    You can't remember an environment or how to respond to threats if you have no conscious memory of the threats.
    In a genetic memory context? Then why wouldn't little children know to put our their hands to break a fall due to genetic memory? Each has to learn.

    There is no such thing as mechanical without a consciousness or subconscious memory.
    Do you see the tendency to homeostasis and equilibrium as conscious?

    You believe in a God, but all life having a consciousness is beyond you? lol This makes 0 sense.
    Ignoring the attempted insult, what I'm saying is that I had never seen things that way before, still don't entirely. It's not beyond me, I just think God is another word for the concept of life itself. Not each specific living thing, not even a life force really. LIFE itself. Or Consciousness.

    Why do you assume it takes a belief in God to raise consciousness?
    "Raise" consciousness? What do you mean? To originate it? To enlighten it?
    I didn't say I assume anything about a belief in God being required to do anything; what I said is what happened to me.
    ------------------

    1. marinealways24 profile image60
      marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      In any memory context. No memory is possible without consciousness of the past.

      We are talking about different levels of memory. I don't know why every little small thing is not remembered, maybe because it is selective memory only remembering the most important for survival.

      On equilibrium and homeostasis, i'm not sure, but if I had to guess, I would guess yes. Regulation has to be conscious of what it is regulating and why it's regulating it. big_smile

      That wasn't an insult, it was just my observation. big_smile
      You can refer to consciousness as God without evidence to explain it, I will refer to consciousness as unknown because I am honest to admit I don't know how, who, what, or why it started.

      Raising consciousness, I am talking about learning and being open to as many ideas as possible, even the ones not quoted by religion or science books.

  38. TLMinut profile image61
    TLMinutposted 6 years ago

    QUOTE:
    DNA remembers information. This is impossible without a conscousness of the past.

    -------------
    It's hard to get past thinking of it as if we're claiming that a book "remembers" what was written on it. I have to go think for a while.

    1. marinealways24 profile image60
      marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      TL, nothing without a level of consciousness remembers nothing.

      I welcome you or anyone else on the forums to correct this.

      1. Obscure Divine profile image60
        Obscure Divineposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        I'll correct it:  Most of the people you talk to, are not even aware of their own awareness or consciousness!  How's that, for the majority rules...  neutral

        1. marinealways24 profile image60
          marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

          lol I agree, good there are intelligent conscious cells to keep them subconscious remembering to keep them alive.  big_smile

  39. 0
    Deborah Sextonposted 6 years ago

    smile

  40. 0
    Deborah Sextonposted 6 years ago

    Electricity can be flowing through the wires in the walls of your home, but it's not evident nor useful until you plug in the appliances. It is the same with consciousness. There has to be a way to plug into it which is through the brain.

    The conscious mind needs it's rest at night, the subconscious mind never sleeps.

    Without the subconscious mind (right brain), the conscious mind (left brain) has no memory and can not keep the breathing stable, the heart pumping etc. The subconscious mind (right brain involuntary nervous system) also without the conscious mind (left brain or voluntary nervous system) could not be imprinted with knowledge through experiences and learning through the five senses and could not express itself or even be known. It could not feed back memory to the conscious mind.

    You have to have both feeding information to each other via the brain in order to have any awareness.

    Everything in life is duality. Two opposite yet complimentary actions that push and pull, expand and contract.

    This isn't just textbook fact, it's common sense.

    1. ceciliabeltran profile image85
      ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      The thing is, the subconscious mind is the reptilian brain which has reptile consciousness. So, it is aware of itself as separate from its environment.

      1. 0
        Deborah Sextonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Ah no kidding..I'm not stupid..
        And tell me how does this come into play. We still need all our senses and minds..Plus it's us regardless if it is reptile or not.
        We are to ascend the mind, body and spirit.

        1. marinealways24 profile image60
          marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Stop insulting yourself. Why do you keep impling that people are calling you stupid when they haven't said that? Do you have low self esteem trying to convince yourself of something? I don't think you are stupid if that makes you feel better.

        2. ceciliabeltran profile image85
          ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          I know you're not stupid. I'm just pointing out that the subconscious mind, is a technology of mind as well, because it is snake consciousness. It is Yetzer Hara, it is Naschash. The selfish aspect. But then, the limbic brain grew over it that made us recognize family, and children, and then the cortex brain grow over that as well that made us more objective and present and then the prefrontal cortex evolved further showing us that all living beings are part of the self.  It always go back to conscious evolution.  It is the coming down of the light, Divine Knowledge into the lower realms. 

          This is not about who is stupid. I do not play the I'm smart, you're stupid game.

      2. 0
        Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Well said, Ceci. Being aware of that consciousness does not suggest an understanding of the elements around, even though that environment may/may not influence the creature.
        Human consciousness is not the same -since it both adheres to and attempts to bend those elements to its necessity (thoughts, desires).

        All consciousness is awareness. The application of said consciousness (only evident in humans) defines the creation and its place in the universal system.

        1. ceciliabeltran profile image85
          ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          thanks, 21.

  41. marinealways24 profile image60
    marinealways24posted 6 years ago

    Deborah Sextonposted 14 minutes agoin reply to this
    Leaves do not evolve from stems. They grow from or off it. (there would be no purpose for a stem without it's leaves, flowers or fruit and the leaf is part of the stem's pattern) Evolution is the gradual change of something into something else.
    No DNA without consciousness? Where do you get this?



    Explain memory and replication of the past without consciousness of the past. Very simple, without consciousness, DNA does not exist, nor does life.

    If one thing grows from the other, it evolved from the thing it grew from. It first takes a stem to evolve a leaf. Unless you believe your God just magically added those. Evolution is a gradual change, maybe that is why it is so hard for you to understand something that looks like a leaf evolved from something that looks like a stem. Conscious reactions to the environment make the patterns. This is how they have evidence that we evolved. If there were no patterns, it would all be random evolution instead of conscious evolution. big_smile

    1. 0
      Deborah Sextonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      A stem cell can become anything. It can even start out to be one thing and change into something else. That is not memory from it's past.

      If you believe in evolution instead of creation then how can you believe that everything comes about through a memory from the past? This is contradictory.

      As I said, leaves do not evolve from stems, the leaf is part of the DNA like the arm is a part of the human DNA.

      If leaves evolved from stems, that means stems evolved into leaves yet the stem is still there so how did it change into a leaf?
      You're not thinking correctly or you just want to keep up the argument. You might want to read on DNA, Genes and Stem Cells.

      1. marinealways24 profile image60
        marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Deborah, because something consciously changes to it's environment doesn't mean it doesn't have memory from the past. You constantly change and you have memory of the past. Are you not conscious?

        I'm not absolute that everything comes from the past, but I think most does. Who said I was an evolutionist or a creationist? I have tried to show no bias of agreeing with one group over the other, I agree with both and I disagree with both at times.

        Again leaves do evolve from the stem, if there was no stem there would be no leaves, if there was no body, there would be no arms, if there was no memory in DNA or cells, arms, bodies, stems, and leaves, would not replicate.

        The body evolved arms, why is the body still there? A tree evolves branches, why is the trunk still there? It needs the body and truck to hold the arms and leaves. I will read on stem cells, you might want to read on being conscious that you are conscious along with the cells that make you conscious.

        1. 0
          Deborah Sextonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Obviously you don't understand the word "EVOLVE"

          I'm done with it..

          1. marinealways24 profile image60
            marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

            lol , You are done with yourself. You don't understand it takes a stem to have a leaf and say I don't understand the word evolve. lol

            1. 0
              Deborah Sextonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Pathetic!

              1. marinealways24 profile image60
                marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Tell me how leaves evolve once more enlightened one. lol

                1. 0
                  Deborah Sextonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  lol lol lol lol lol lol

                  1. Obscure Divine profile image60
                    Obscure Divineposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Woo-woo!

                  2. ceciliabeltran profile image85
                    ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Deborah, May I Kabbalah Speak? Shekinah. When the Shekinah shattered, it formed the entire universe. The One Soul is not JUST the Jewish people it is ALL of creation. If you are a crude soul, you will come back on earth as a wheat. Atleast this is Chassidic interpretation.(which to catholics will be the equivalent of Jesuits) Kabbalah even says that a rock has rock consciousness.  So, if your only reason for disbelieving in universal consciousness is the Sefer Ha-Torah, I assure you Torah says all of creation has the consciousness of the One Soul.

                    As for plant consciousness...it is conscious enough to search for the sun as it grows.

      2. 0
        china manposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        I am too lazy to look back through all this stuff - but 'things' can have memory without consciousness, I understand consciousness is to be with aware of oneself. Just because an organism like a plant has 'learned' how to grow step by successful step and then store it in the DNA does not mean it is conscious. The DNA is passed on hand to hand through the reproduction of itself. The fact that every living thing has this ability is because we all stem from the same cellular activity - from before we started dividing up into our discrete types.

        I posted this for Marinealways but it stuck on Deborah's - and now I can't change it - top of the evolutionary tree huh

        1. marinealways24 profile image60
          marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Well, your conscious is too lazy is not a good start. Something doesn't learn or memorize without consciousness. A cell is aware of itself in it's environment, this is why it memorizes and adapts. You admit that we all stem from the same cellular activity, but think it's impossible for all life, even cellular to contain consciousness. Consciousness had to start somewhere, why is it over your head that it could start with the cell or even before? How much do you learn when you are unconscious in school?

          1. 0
            Deborah Sextonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            smile big_smile lol It appears it is over your head.

            1. marinealways24 profile image60
              marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

              lol It appears you have no consciousness of your head. lol

              1. 0
                Deborah Sextonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Though you feel you are funny, your writings shows me a lot more about you.

                1. marinealways24 profile image60
                  marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  lol So does yours. It shows you have no individual ideas, just robotic ones and nit pick insults on others ideas.

                  1. Obscure Divine profile image60
                    Obscure Divineposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Amen!

                  2. ceciliabeltran profile image85
                    ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    I don't get the reverse snobbery for people who happen, just happen to have a lot of information, marine. It really is not a good defense. Information can be used both ways. It is neutral. It is how we interpret these information that colors them.

                    I mean just because there are a lot of sources cited does not, and never has been considered a sign of a dull mind.

                    Some people have a different language that's all.

          2. 0
            china manposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            I meant that I am too lazy to go back and look at how many people have tried to explain this to you without success.

            A cell does not have consciousness, it operates to a DNA programme, ie runs on auto if it a simple organism (single cell or plant) or obeys central command if it is part of a more complex organism directed by a brain - consciousness is when the brain is aware that it exists.

            1. marinealways24 profile image60
              marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

              lol There is consciousness to remember a program. Is this hard for you to understand? There is no command wihout a subconscious of consciousness. Just because you and Deborah think something doesn't mean it's correct. Maybe it is just a case of the degree ego's that you both have. Consciousness or awareness of the environment is not limited to a brain. If you would read, you would understand this. How many times do I have to explain something to you without success before you comprehend an idea that wasn't in your college books?

            2. Obscure Divine profile image60
              Obscure Divineposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              That is lame, no offense.

              1. 0
                china manposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                You are TK/Sab oh   as well !   wow - how many can there be, there surely can't be more than one actual conscious entity out there that thinks and behaves like this ?

              2. 0
                Deborah Sextonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                china man wrote:

                    I meant that I am too lazy to go back and look at how many people have tried to explain this to you without success.

                    A cell does not have consciousness, it operates to a DNA programme, ie runs on auto if it a simple organism (single cell or plant) or obeys central command if it is part of a more complex organism directed by a brain - consciousness is when the brain is aware that it exists.

                That is lame, no offense.
                Posted 3 hours ago
                ***************************************

                This is not lame it is truth. What biology did you study?

                1. marinealways24 profile image60
                  marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  lol It is not the truth. Consciousness is left out. Without the cells having conscious memory or reactions, their wouldn't be DNA. It may be a program, but it is a conscious/subconscious program. It takes conscious cells to make a conscious brain. Keep trying. lol

                  1. 0
                    china manposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    That is insane laughter at the end of your comment.   By the way, congratulations on keeping the longest thread going with this nonsense for so long !!

                2. ceciliabeltran profile image85
                  ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  DNA is product of the need of the organism to retain what it learned! The membrane is the brain of the organism.

                3. Obscure Divine profile image60
                  Obscure Divineposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  I studied biology on Planet Nabizenith that is located within the NC-Deltaic X9 Galaxy.  I don't think it has been discovered yet, by Earth people.  Don't worry, I'll launch a new signal from my interstellar beacon.  Thanks for asking...

                  1. ceciliabeltran profile image85
                    ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    he he I'm sure if I research hard enough, I'll find it somewhere.

        2. 0
          Deborah Sextonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          I am happy you explained this was meant for Marinealways.

          1. marinealways24 profile image60
            marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

            I am happy you believe you and your hubby have a higher consciousness school when you are partly unconscious. lol

            1. marinealways24 profile image60
              marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Maybe 6 more years of school will do the trick. lol

            2. 0
              Deborah Sextonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Oh now I see you have no idea what Higher consciousness is either. Doesn't have anything to do with school. smile

      3. ceciliabeltran profile image85
        ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Hi Deborah, the Brain Stem is a technological breakthrough in the conscious evolution. When the fetus grows a brain, it is copying technology that the entire evolution has learned over time about the creation of the brain beginning from the spine, which parallels the technology learned from the nanosnakes of proteins. The migration of cells is also learned from knowledge the genes have acquired. The cell itself has no predetermined function until it "chooses" a place in the formation.Whatever spot it chooses in the formation will determine what it will be which also mirrors epigenetics, which states that where you are determines the direction of your evolution. These are all coded by the cell DNA and activated in the soup of the womb.

        In Kabbalah the concept is represented by Tav, which is mark, or memory or covenant (agreement) or end.  Tav is the feminine, the Shekinah, the end of the Divine Light. It is Malkhut, when the Light becomes present on the lower realms. When knowledge becomes embedded in the genes. That knowledge is literally born of and carried by light.

        1. 0
          Deborah Sextonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          AND your POINT?
          If you had read my posts instead of assuming you would know I have already gone over this. I am in the medical field and have my Masters in Nursing.

          1. marinealways24 profile image60
            marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Masters = Higher consciousness = Enlightened.

            Do I have the right forumla? I thought it took a PHD to reach enlightenment. lol

            1. 0
              Deborah Sextonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Brain damage can really mess up a life smile

              1. marinealways24 profile image60
                marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Yes, so stop tricking your subconscious that you are enlightened when you are barely conscious. lol

          2. ceciliabeltran profile image85
            ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            The point is the brain as it is evolved from what consciousness has learned, passed it on through the genes (it's language) which became the instructions for the next level of vessel the consciousness needs to survive better and accumulate information better. That is the point.

            1. marinealways24 profile image60
              marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Agreed. big_smile

  42. marinealways24 profile image60
    marinealways24posted 6 years ago

    I have a pretty good idea that consciousness on the cellular will be in textbooks in 10 years or less unless it is left out for a reason. I think consciousness is clearly shown at the cellular level. If cells didn't have consciousness or memory, they would not be alive or be able to create our consciousness. If anyone feels different, I welcome your explanation of how life survives, even on the cellular level without conscious reactions.big_smile

  43. marinealways24 profile image60
    marinealways24posted 6 years ago

    "Without optimal culture conditions or genetic manipulation,[12] embryonic stem cells will rapidly differentiate"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stem_cell

    This is saying that the stem cells have consciousness of their environment. If no consciousness, the culture conditions and manipulation wouldn't make a difference if they had no consciousness.

    "Nearly all research to date has taken place using mouse embryonic stem cells (mES) or human embryonic stem cells (hES). Both have the essential stem cell characteristics, yet they require very different environments in order to maintain an undifferentiated state." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stem_cell

    Because they have consciousness of their environment.

    "The classical definition of a stem cell requires that it possess two properties:
    "Self-renewal - the ability to go through numerous cycles of cell division while maintaining the undifferentiated state.
    Potency - the capacity to differentiate into specialized cell types. In the strictest sense, this requires stem cells to be either totipotent or pluripotent - to be able to give rise to any mature cell type, although multipotent or unipotent progenitor cells are sometimes referred to as stem cells." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stem_cell

    How is self renewal possible without consciousness of what the self is? How is there an undifferentiated state without consciousness of the current state?

    1. 0
      Deborah Sextonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Which contradicts everything you've said. smile

      1. marinealways24 profile image60
        marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

        How is that?

      2. ceciliabeltran profile image85
        ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        It does not contradict his stand. The proteins are conscious of the environment! That's why the cell is.

        1. 0
          Deborah Sextonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          By the way..I just unfollowed you. You have no idea what I have said or what I am saying.

          Stems do not evolve into leaves as stated by him. The stem, leaves etc. are part of the DNA from the beginning.
          So you may want to study evolution too. smile

          1. marinealways24 profile image60
            marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Well....I asked and you never answered. So I appreciate someone having the decency to answer your wrong assumption. I am open to whatever you write as long as you back it up with evidence why you write it.

            1. 0
              Deborah Sextonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Everything I have said is correct.

              Go to the library and read a medical or biology book

              1. marinealways24 profile image60
                marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                The books are not conscious. big_smile

                And neither is a person that only relys on books for their information. big_smile

              2. ceciliabeltran profile image85
                ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                That's okay Deborah. I will still follow you though because for me disagreement is okay, it helps explore the topics we care about. I enjoy your hubs outside this forum.

                Well, marine has his concepts down pat, but in terms of details, he kind of hiccups here and there but I agree with his stand on this topic.

                The DNA does  contain the coding, but the DNA is a memory of something the parent organism learned. SO in that way, consciousness is at work because learning is taking place. That is the argument.

                1. 0
                  Deborah Sextonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Disagreement is one thing but to assume I have said something because someone else says I did...instead of going back to read the statements. Like you said..you have read my Hubs..so you should know my stand.

                  1. ceciliabeltran profile image85
                    ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    i was reading your posts and you are disagreeing that plant has consciousness. you reiterate it over and over.

                    The decision to have DNA was a way for life to perpetuate a memory that will be useful in the future. The intent is clear. It wants to remember so that it will live longer to gather more ideas about the reality its in until it became more complex with more complex forms of sensing the world. SO i mean, taking offense is counterproductive to the value you can put in this thread, being a nurse.

                2. marinealways24 profile image60
                  marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Thanks cecilia, I appreciate your comments. I'm not perfect or above anyone else, I am still learning like everyone else.

                  1. ceciliabeltran profile image85
                    ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Thanks too, you have such interesting topics. I learned so much about what I already know and their place in my take on things.

        2. 0
          china manposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          You clearly have a definition of conscious that is all your own. Maybe react to, effected, chemical reaction to, but hmmm, it is sunny but I don't think I will dry out a little because I have a cell-ache !

          1. 0
            Deborah Sextonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            The plants probably fall in love too. smile

            Poor things, the bugs eat them and they can't move. How cruel for nature to make them aware of all these things in their own little plant brains.

            1. marinealways24 profile image60
              marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

              More jokes from you. I never said I know can they can feel pain, they don't have a nervous system. Maybe they could still have a sense of pain, i'm not sure. Nature does a lot of cruel things, have your eyes been closed throughout life? Did you not hear how nature recently destroyed Haiti? Was that a nice thing for nature to do?

            2. ceciliabeltran profile image85
              ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              well, they have sex. they reproduce through pollen like flowers. As far as reproduction is the end result of falling in love....I guess, the motivation to reproduce would be its version of human love.

          2. marinealways24 profile image60
            marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

            lol
            What is a rocks reaction?
            There are no living reactions without consciousness.

            1. ceciliabeltran profile image85
              ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              well technically, just to push the idea, crystals are rocks no? they grow, store energy pretty much like some plants.

          3. ceciliabeltran profile image85
            ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Well,  it is not just my own. Human consciousness is different from consciousness in general.

            Consciousness is the ability to have a reality model to respond to and the ability to sense a separation from this reality.

            Self-awareness has levels.

            1. 0
              Deborah Sextonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Awareness/Consciousness are all the levels not just one.
              One part can't say to another I don't need you.


              You can't KNOW other levels without the mind knowing it exists.
              This is what you don't get.

              So if your statement is TRUE tell me..what were you doing before you became self aware? Please you must know because you KNEW and was conscious according to your definition..

              You've never really said anything about your gender. Here in America the name Cellia is female but I feel such a large male aura about you..it may just be the way you express yourself.

              1. ceciliabeltran profile image85
                ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                I suppose you are talking about the collective consciousness (the Elohim yah? or in some translations the Allahyim)  Different from Hashem, where a Yud leads as opposed that puts the yud after  the concepts "force directed focus" before the yud consciousness. Hashem consciousness began only at the creation of Adam, you know in Paradise, at the formation of the human brain. So in Kabbalah Speak, self awareness was not there until Adam/human.

                I talk to mostly men, I put the man hat on. A woman's perspective will not survive here. Let's start a thread that will attract women. And then you'll read a different language. We have two sides always, two hemispheres. Everyone is both man and woman inside the head, also everyone has a little snake inside.

              2. ceciliabeltran profile image85
                ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                To answer your question in the scientific way that most people here will understand. This the answer, i was trying to stay alive and be better at being alive. I'm still doing that that's why I had to be self-aware to find out what about my behaviors are endangering my life, now and in the long term.

                Yah? Eternal life is the goal, to live forever and carry with us the knowledge about reality that consciousness has acquired over time. We do not want to forget, so we strive to stay alive.

                1. 0
                  Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  the goal is completed Vav or Zayin (gen 1.1) to my present understanding.

                  the concept of 'taking it with you over time' disagree with, since that information was always there, preconception. Adding 'new information' doesn't make sense, since we don't know how to input that information at the nucleic level. All consciousness/awareness is already, and in every human, making no one human greater than the next. Also seen in all forms of creation. No one grasshopper is better than another grasshopper. They are equal. But, since humans have free will, they can choose to alter the level of active information. One person gives information to another and we assume they are smarter. but when that information is reactivated in you or I, we are just as smart.

                  subsidized consciousness -imo- is needful or needless.

                  1. ceciliabeltran profile image85
                    ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Zayin is the plow and Vav is the connector.  Alef pulls the Zayin, Zayin is the end. It is the point where force touches earth and fertilizes it to create life. Vav is space, but not just space, it is but space that expands that adds up, that acrues...hence the ideographic value "AND".

                    The only I can explain it is through Yoga ideology. The mind cannot be changed until the body changes its habits. There is a conscious resistance to mechanism, because mechanism kills mindfulness and it results in not being aware.

                    In the same way, concepts grow in understanding through the increase in its expressions, in variety.  The concepts are known, the variety of permutations are not because they are infinite in their possibilties. No one grasshopper is better than the other, but each grasshopper is unique.

                    Mathematically this is all the numbers that emanate from 0 to 9.

                    If it is not important to remember, then we would not have evolved genes. But memory even exists in our brains. It is an attempt to string the experience because All Knowledge wanted to experience what It knows.

                    hence life, hence the universe, hence spacetime.
                    if human awareness was not useful to the universe, why is it there?

  44. marinealways24 profile image60
    marinealways24posted 6 years ago

    For the genius married duo of higher consciousness that think the leaves didn't evolve from the stem. lol

    The widespread appearance of megaphyll leaves, with their branched veins and planate form, did not occur until the close of the Devonian period at about 360 Myr ago. This happened about 40 Myr after simple leafless vascular plants first colonized the land in the Late Silurian/Early
    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v4 … 352a0.html

    Read....The leaves evolved after the leafless stems. Amazing.

    "Leaves today are, in almost all instances, an adaptation to increase the amount of sunlight that can be captured for photosynthesis. Leaves certainly evolved more than once, and probably originated as spiny outgrowths to protect early plants from herbivory." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_plants

    How do you lack the awareness to tell someone they don't know what evolve means when you can't understand a leaf evolved from a stem? lol

    1. ceciliabeltran profile image85
      ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I agree with you.

  45. marinealways24 profile image60
    marinealways24posted 6 years ago

    How did I write it on a hunch that the stem evolved the leaf if I have no understanding of evolution?

    Why does a stem evolve a leaf to capture more sunlight if it has no consciousness of sunlight? Why does it develop defenses when it has no consciousness or awareness of it's threats?

    1. ceciliabeltran profile image85
      ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      that's just what I said above. The leaves are born out of a need to gather sunlight.

      1. marinealways24 profile image60
        marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Sounds intelligent to me. big_smile

  46. marinealways24 profile image60
    marinealways24posted 6 years ago

    Deborah Sextonposted 4 minutes agoin reply to this
    Oh now I see you have no idea what Higher consciousness is either. Doesn't have anything to do with school.


    I knew that and so did Diverse when he pointed it out to you. But...apparently you didn't have awareness to understand that your degree means little to nothing when it requires thought outside of the textbooks you have read.

    1. Obscure Divine profile image60
      Obscure Divineposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      You make for some very valid points of view.  smile

      1. marinealways24 profile image60
        marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Thank You. big_smile
        I enjoy reading yours as well.

  47. brianzen profile image60
    brianzenposted 6 years ago

    I think that going over this thread has lots of interesting pov. You guys might love it!

    1. marinealways24 profile image60
      marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Thanks to you and everyone else that has added valuable thoughts, even to the ones that don't separate beyond the books.

      1. brianzen profile image60
        brianzenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Thanks buddy!

        1. marinealways24 profile image60
          marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Thank You. big_smile

  48. ceciliabeltran profile image85
    ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago

    I have to agree with Marine, that degrees are not relevant. The argument should stand on its own, whether sources are cited or not.

    1. brianzen profile image60
      brianzenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      It was strange how far beyond us it went, and so many directions. I wonder if they looked back over it and said "geez that was already said."

      1. ceciliabeltran profile image85
        ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        I always say that to Obscure!

        1. Obscure Divine profile image60
          Obscure Divineposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Ha-ha!  Yeah, but I didn't read for my information; I already knew...oops, I meant felt. I can't help that I have perfected galactic probes!

    2. marinealways24 profile image60
      marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Thank You. big_smile
      I partly agree with Twenty on one thing, most of our sources can be found inside ourselves and observation, but we wouldn't have the level of awareness of our consciousness without others.

      1. brianzen profile image60
        brianzenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        In response to the actual question, of from where does consciousness come, did you reach any different point of view?

        1. marinealways24 profile image60
          marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Thank You for redirecting the thread back to the point. I am leaning that the first conscious life arrived on meteorites or comets then evolved from plant life. This one makes the most sense to me, but all options are still open. I also believe conscious life is impossible to come from unconscious life.

          1. ceciliabeltran profile image85
            ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Yes good points brianzen

      2. 0
        Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        unless it was pure projection, absorption or reflection to/from that environment, with/without another human. Example: a man lives alone on a desert island, no human contact -he still is consciously engaging himself and that place.

        1. brianzen profile image60
          brianzenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Twenty One Days Hello I read your forum stuff, well placed, and spot on.

          1. 0
            Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Hello Brian. Nice to 'meet' you.

        2. marinealways24 profile image60
          marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Twenty, thanks for returning. big_smile
          I love the man on the island/desert question. I think he would still be conscious, but he wouldn't know what consciousness is. If there was no humans or books to read, how would he know? Many of us here on the forum have infinite information available and still don't fully understand consciousness, even with feedback from others.

          1. 0
            Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            which is why i told someone else, consciousness is a seemingly infinite parallel within a finite area. The probabilities of A-B (meaning the très priori) are -well- ridiculously a lot. Any single thought can attach/detach from another at will.


            ps glad to be back, in good company!
            let catch a new york minute cigarette and jump back in to esplain the light thing. big_smile

            1. marinealways24 profile image60
              marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

              I hope the cigg was good. big_smile
              Those things cause subconscious dependency.

  49. brianzen profile image60
    brianzenposted 6 years ago

    Either way the coolest part is this one. We must all have had an eye on this forum.

  50. 0
    Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago

    Marine, hmm, i would say the prim consciousness was light, which carries the vibrations/consciousness of all creation.

    just a thought.

    1. ceciliabeltran profile image85
      ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I agree. Only information can travel at the speed of light which means they are of the same essence.  So if you have information that is born out of light.

      1. marinealways24 profile image60
        marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Can you explain this with the hadron collider? Is this the point of the experiment, to create life from colliding light?

        1. ceciliabeltran profile image85
          ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          hmmm....haven't heard of this experiment thanks...will look it up (but not tonight)

    2. marinealways24 profile image60
      marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Alright, i'm not fully doubting, but how does light and vibration design a conscious cell?

      1. 0
        Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        okay.
        light has the properties/vibrato.
        -projective, positive, proto - rays
        -absorptive, neutral, neutrino -optic / spacial (dare i say spheric/spiral -much like a galaxy)
        -reflective, negative, electro -waves

        These same conditions apply to every single atomic unit and their sub-units, thus far.
        The vibrato of a -H (meaning dominant electro property) can be reduced, as with all elements. The speed variation of light/atomic motion is seen in lead v helium.

        The cell of consciousness (the mind) is the same. The nuclei of consciousness contains any or all instances of a combination of atomic motion -which we perceive as thought/information.
        The projective dominant sets the thought in motion, it is collected/collides - becomes 'aware' or better said optic and then reflects the condition as far as we allow, being a solution.

        1. ceciliabeltran profile image85
          ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          I don't know.

          Electro pulls
          Proto pushes
          nuetral is spacial true

          -1 0 +1, which in concept means When 0 moves 1 distance away from its point of origin, a -1 absence is created.

          The radiation (pushing, emanating) travels from a source creating an equivalent negative space that pulls the radiation back to the negative space and loops! creating, yes a circular path of more pushing and pulling force an orbit of energy happens as a result.

          Question is, what made +1 move away from its point of origin? Big question. Why did the first cause move in space creating the spacetime continuum and then later on, us?

        2. marinealways24 profile image60
          marinealways24posted 6 years ago in reply to this

          You 2 have at it. You throw the numbers out and I go blank. lol
          I will search for youtube videos to see what you are talking about. lol

          1. 0
            Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            lol

            sorry M. The use of numbers is just to show the three conditions of light/energy. The idea is this:

            light or any energy is always in motion.
            project, absorb, reflect.
            this is also the condition of human consciousness.
            question/consider, dialogue/objective (optic), decision/solution.


            Ceci, to answer that "0" it is in motion, only 'circular' meaning it is both project-reflect simultaneously. This is what enables spectral or optic ability. The rays & waves intersecting, collides then either projecting or reflecting.

            Now, the interesting thing is how many probabilities can exist.
            I have been working on this literally for years. Based on the 3³concept (spheric), each instance of energy has 3 base properties : dominant, equal, submissive, a charge of proto, neutral, electro and a vibrato of project, absorb, reflect.

            So, apply this to consciousness, it works the same.

            { hope that made sense. its early and my brain needs starbucks tongue }

            1. ceciliabeltran profile image85
              ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              in hinduism, this would be the sattvic, rajastic and tamasic. sattvic =0

          2. ceciliabeltran profile image85
            ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            funny marine! LOL!

            I have to contract the limited space of my brain in order to understand that! So you are saying that it ...wait the sun is like that! it pushes energy out and also pulling it in creating light which both radiates and absorbs energy. So zero can also be a metaphor for the sun.

            thesis, synthesis, antithesis, ya? It has a version in philo marine.

            1. 0
              Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              right on!

              i refer to it as the trè priori. but yeah, that's it. smile

 
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