Talking with another hubber on the religious forums (ceciliabeltran) we decided to open a discussion to express our thoughts on the great Carl Gustav Jung and the post Jungians.
I don't do religion at all, do not believe in god, and believe that brain chemistry is vital to understanding self.
Bust a gut!
In Ireland there are what can only be described as Vodoo psychologists etc working in a variety of services, some would not be allowed to work in any other country but because we have very poor governance of such matters they are able to operate with impunity - we had a case last week where a teacher lost his job because a psychotherapist said that a childs behaviour was consistent with sexual abuse - turned out the child had never been abused and had never claimed to be abused - very dangerous area - good topic
Good post Irish. I was not aware of your problem with lousy therapists in Ireland. Sounds very dangerous indeed!
We have a strong licensing system here, but lousy therapists still slip through.
In the USA back in the '60s a primary school age kid was thought disturbed when he was found to be painting with nothing but blacks and whites, grays and browns. Was he depressed? Was he anxious about something? Was he suicidal?
He was eventually asked why he didn't use 'happier' colors. He said it was on account of his legs. The psychologist asked him what was wrong with his legs. He said they were too short. Why did he think they were too short? He told them. He had to stand on a stool to get to the colors and by the time he did that all the good colors were gone, taken by the other kids.
This true story was made into an episode of Julia. I just thought I'd throw it in.
Psychologist here not evil at all. He wanted to help. He just wasn't that smart.
That is a very telling story Ron, thanks for that.
Rod, that so reminds me of a situation back in the 80's when I was a Special Ed assistant. This little boy had been 'in the system' for a few years for almost unintelligible speech until the teacher in my classroom asked to see his primary caregiver. His Grandmother came in who had undergone throat surgeries for cancer and thus, his speech 'problems.'
You just never know.
Hmmm...now I'm thinking my daughter's language processing problems may be because my nanny's grammar is way off.
Thanks lorlie6 for your input. Yes sometimes a bit of back ground history is all you need.
Similar story: First grade children (someone I know) were asked to draw a picture of what they wanted (maybe for Christmas - this was years ago, before Christmas was "banned" in schools). One little girl drew a picture of a bed; and, of course, that set off a whole thing with the school, the counselor, etc. etc. The teacher knew the child's parents had recently divorced, which didn't help. This child lived in a pretty home and had a nice room.
When the mother asked her child why ("on Earth") she would ever have drawn a bed the little girl said, "Because it was easy to spell."
I don't think a lot of psychologists are "evil", but I do think a lot of them have invested a lot in terms of money, time, effort, and the "emotional reward" of trying to help people; and, as a result, have emotional incentive not to err on the side of "Ok-ness". Also, though, part of my daughter's multi-degree plans have included psychology; and she has been amazed at how few people in her classes seem to have any common sense. Her "thing" is that she thinks there ought to be a certain kind of test for people who even want to get programs aimed at training psychologists.
In the 1970's there was a psych in Chilli who used drugs with his treatment.
He claimed that by using harmines, abogane and MMDA he was able to remove a full blown psychosis in 6 months as opposed to 6 years of therapy without drugs, which was considered the norm at this time.
Excellent story there - Rod id there anymore - very good
Back in the 1930s in the USA the government decided to put together an intelligence test for ten year olds. It was a series of questions and the children were rated on how well they answered the questions. The test went out to all schools with surprising results when the returns came in. According to the answers they got back the city kids were a lot brighter than the country kids.
A psychologist decided this can't be right so he had a good look at the questions and decided that the questions were actually biased toward the city kids. What does a country kid know about jackhammers if he has never seen a jackhammer in his life? What does a country kid know about street lights if there aren't any street lights in his town?
Anyway, this psychologist put together his own intelligence test which was biased on purpose toward country kids. It was sent out to the schools with not so surprising results when the returns came back.
To country kids milk comes from a cow. To city kids it comes in bottles from the corner shop. To a country kid bacon is an animal product, it comes from a pig. To the city kid it is a supermarket or shop product and there is no way they can relate it to any animal. Rain is needed on a farm so crops will grow. In the city rain is just a nuisance.
Of course after this revelation brought about by this psychologist future intelligence tests took into account local knowledge and circumstance and were less prejudicial.
True story. I hope it satisfies you Irish and Earnest.
well there are still ridiculous tests like that. here in Canada tests were conducted for 5-6 year olds entering school. the tests were trying to determine whether or not children were ready for school and whether or not additional supports were needed in some areas in relation to child development - the tests considered socio-economic factors, etc. Anyway, the results were left up to individual teachers and their observations. So of course each teacher had their own interpretation of each question posed about a child they hardly knew. The results came out and of course the results looked skewed to me, based on my experience and knowledge. people didn't know how to interpret the results well - the basics in understanding how to read data. A few years later, the next group of children were evaluated with different teachers and different interpretations of the questions. Behind all of the tests of course money was a driving factor - teachers knew that possibly additional resources would be provided to their geographic area if evaluation results proved that more support was needed for the children in their geographic area. Input was provided to the people conducting the studies about the flaws in their testing (both tests) - but it didn't matter - they were being paid to do the sampling and evaluation of the data collected. And another test will probably be conducted - what a waste of money!
i do believe psych methods/techniques do help some - not all...
...just watch out for the testing and evaluation of groups of people...and how they are conducted.
true, but they should not be considered gospel truth.
...i believe the context of the entire person must be added into the equation as well and not only the medical/scientific aspects....i guess my initial thoughts on psych stems from being around people with very, very serious and chronic mental illnesses....some are able to get help so they can cope with the everyday and others' illnesses don't get a lot of relief unfortunately...fall through the cracks and land on the streets.
as I said, after a certain point, the only solution is to activate the body through exercise and if I may add yoga does this so well because of the cross-sections the back bends. It really really stirs up the soup and the brain's fog is cleared.
if only it was that easy for people - i don't think exercising is the solution for psychotic symptoms - I'm referring to the really serious illnesses.
It's not easy but there is not enough methods in place yet. Someone has to start a program. the mind body connection is conclusive already. the problem is which exercise fixes which part of the brain.
check out arrowsmith approach and john ratey's spark. the research is there, the methods are not so widespread.
and when I refer to the entire person, I mean do they have good living condtions, or even a roof over their head, food, a support system, can they get out of bed, are there addictions issues as well, do they have other physical challenges, etc., etc., etc.
naturally... What I am trying to say is, given all of that and there's a program, exercise can increase activity in the brain in a way that healing can begin.
The world is full of limitations but if you think of possibilities then you move forward.
...I guess trying anything and everything is the key...within reason.
what first comes to mind for me when you mention exercise is the picture of someone's solution to helping the homeless is to get them exercising - jogging; well I have a problem with that considering they probably get more exercise than most, just trying to survive the streets etc.
I do understand what you are saying - anything is worth a try when you are suffering.
I think you bring up an important point regarding differences and similarities between organic brain damage/dysfunction, and other debilitating cognitive conditions like trauma, PTSD, and abuse of various kinds.
well I mentioned arrowsmith precisely because she was able to find a way to "grow" her own brain using motor exercises. The link to body movement and mental health is becoming more and more conclusive.
I can't ignore my own experience ofcourse.
I assure you I was CRAZY (not really but I was resentful, petty and I was unhappy). I was dying from asthma. Then one day a beautiful acquaintance told me I should do intensive yoga for my asthma. I did. On the fourth day of 8 hour yoga, I felt a weird sensation on the back of my head and my spine. I slept for 10 hours straight and after that I woke up having total clarity. Like, I got my pipes replaced and now the irrigation system is working again.
Then I went to my training and everyone reported the same thing. It was then that I started to research on the connection. Yes. YOGA and exercise for that matter particularly those with a lot of cross sections and spine twisting helps with mental health.
After that, it was easier to do mental work and process my life. Not exactly Jung but it works!
..that's interesting...I'll have to read about it..
Look for these authors : John Ratey and Norman Doidge. You can also look up Barbara Arrowsmith as well as the Dore Method. There is just so much about it and not enough people who know about it.
i practised yoga years ago - before it was cool ...I'm not saying that is why you do it...I know the value of yoga...and so thank you!...I'll look up those authors..
Wow, I wish I stayed awake. Hi Ernest.
I find that psychology's evils owes to the fact that psychology is incomplete. It needs a biological face. We are only beginning to connect psychological models to neurological activities.
Many psychologists, and with PhDs at that do not even know where the subconscious is processed. There is a lot of confusion out there as to where the what is being processed. The knowledge is available but the theory is inadequate. We just need ONE modern Jung to connect the dots. Will it be any of the guys here in this forum?
I personally think psychotherapy only works for the distraught not the disturbed. For disturbed mental patients, exercise is the best way to the synaptic sparks going again. At some point the chemical problem is a sea the mind is drowning in. You must change the tides for the sea to start flowing where it should and you can only do that through exercise.
Jung's work is unbelievably powerful, but it takes a perceptive Jungian psychologist to get the job done. Let's just say you cannot train to be a Jungian psychologist, you cannot fake it. You just are born that way. Some people have the chops, some don't. Jungian psychologists are the new witch doctors.
I just got back here Cecillia, and notice the comments are full of good ideas, advice that is plausible, lot's of caring observations and some first hand experience from the likes of Daniel Carter.
I am well pleased with the input from fellow hubbers. It seems we can share information here without getting neurotic!
I now have a few more books to read that I have missed.
Thanks for that! Great responses.
I'll suggest one that is easy to read by Eugene Pascal, one of the best Jungian analysts. The title is Jung to Live By: A Guide to the Practical Application of Jungian Principles for Everyday Day.
Jung is the one that said, 'everything that irritates us about others can lead us to a better understanding of ourselves.'
that can be put into practice in these forums for sure!
he also said, ' the healthy man does not torture others-generally it is the tortured who torture others.'
well...that sums it up for my day and the last weeks that I've been dealing with a problem at work. I have a staff member who just keeps torturing me every chance they get and I know their issues are their issues - not mine! and I can't do anything about it....I'm tired of being tortured!!!! LOL!
A great book Rebekah, I read it some time ago.
Jung understood the shadow as the source of great growth that it is.
Self examination, the road less travelled has less traffic for a good reason.
Real self awareness contains the shadow as well as the "good" bits in the Jungian way of seeing self, but looking at self through the shadow is painful. Very painful.
Jung made the point by saying that a man would rather walk over broken glass than glimpse the self, my experience of myself says this is true, at least to me!
I spent 3 years with a top Jungian practitioner and can confirm the pain is horrible indeed. Half the time, ( I went twice a week to get through 6 years of therapy) I spent lying to myself to avoid looking at the shadow.
Eventually my subconscious mind started to spill the beans, and I made progress.
I am now a bit like me. My eccentricity, bluntness, ego and idiocy are all more or less integrated. I am becoming myself, good bad or indifferent!
shadow work is great, but it takes a lot of self love to do it.
I find that before you can do the shadow work, you must have a center, a kind of certainty. So when you delve in shadow you know where to return.
I did my therapy at the height of my success.
When I realised I had "made it" I also had time to think about myself in a fresh way.
I also felt the need to know more about myself as my liberated wife was well able to point out my faults. I had both the time and money so it was good timing for me. I know how lucky that is, but I am almost always lucky, and quite used to it really! That is another story anyway, but not unrelated.
Are psychology and psychotherapy evil or accurate?
I do not have an opinion on this, no experience unless your talking about the drug peddling shrinks.
I do find Jung fascinating. I have been studying symbolism for many years. The archetypes described by Jung is an intriguing subject and allows me many hours of pleasure in researching.
any philosophy including religion (a belief) can be evil depending on intent, how it is used.
Jungian principles can be applied to everyday life with understanding and focus. how many people really want to interact with their shadow self? it can be extremely difficult as it is human nature to avoid self-examination. and yet our shadow self is there to help us, not to condemn us.
I do think blaming parents or outside sources for our 'problems'
is too easy. we are all equipped with coping mechanisms even for the most difficult situations.
Jungs work with the archetypes is fascinating and I have learned a lot about myself and people with his work. 'to thine own self be true' is good therapy for anyone.
I apparently exhibited all the symptoms of a sexually abused child, as I went through a lot of psychotherapy for physical/mental abuse as a child. I was adamant that I have never had any memory of sexual abuse. I was questioned for over and over again for this, but I finally stated that I was not there to work through false memories, I was there to work through the trauma of real memories, all of which I verified through relatives.
I've met several people whose lives have been completely shattered because of false ideas/stories/scenarios were planted in a person, which thus enabled them to receive further attention to reinforce their victimhood. I think it's abominable. I wanted to learn how NOT to be victim, not learn how to be an enabled, entitled one.
The psychotherapy field is filled with far too many quacks, period. However, I did find one who to his great credit, and to the credit of his field, helped me to finally get a grasp on reality, helped me sort through my pain and false perceptions so I could regain some healthy thinking, gain some very valuable skills for relationships and well-being and much more.
So, for me, it's definitely a mix. I've seen the worst, and I've seen the best in the field, and I think one must be very, very persistent and committed to their own healing in order for them to find the path, the people, and tools that will really help. I had to keep an open mind. I had to throw away so many things in my life, and it was scary because it was all I knew, but I needed to forge ahead and find my own truth.
It's a difficult, complex path. But it's worth it. There are quacks in every field, there are geniuses in every field. It's up to us to be committed to ourselves first, relying on our own core values (without sway from others who would convince us of what they should be), committed to our well-being and healing, in order to find those who will best assist and teach in our life's journey. We have an internal compass, in almost all cases, which will point us in the direction we need to go, if we will get in touch with ourselves. Others come along to assist. The mistake we make is handing our lives over to them and say "fix it, I can't." That's a lie we tell ourselves. In fact, we MUST fix it ourselves, in almost all cases. We are led to those who help to show us how a little here, and there.
My feelings are strong on this subject. I don't mean to preach, but my experiences have been rather extreme.
Well its a portrait. I find it extremely helpful that shared that with us.
Most of the time, in order to heal children just need a loving environment among people who thinks the world of them. The mind is plastic. What is not reinforced is lost.
Oddly, this is only partially true. The healthiest form of love is self acceptance, unconditionally. If we wait for others to love us, then we only run from one person to another leaching "love" from them. However, unconditional love that is modeled by parents and others is really the basis for understanding self love, respect and acceptance. It's complex, because we are social creatures, and so we do depend on love from others as well, but the healthier relationships in life are based on a healthy perspective of self, first, allowing a healthy sharing of life and love.
At least that's what I've learned is true for me.
It is true. But a child needs a mirror and that mirror is his mother. If the mother uses the child as a mirror, then the problem begins.
The unmothered mother is a great chapter in Pinkola Estes' book women who run with the wolves. The perspective is women, but it applies to men as well.
The story of the ugly duckling is a story of a child who was rejected by his mother and went around finding himself in the wrong crowd until one day, he saw something beautiful and that beautiful image was a recognition of his own beauty.
I always see unmothered mothers walking around the PTA. I feel for their children and always want to give the child a minute or two of what they need. It seems to help. Sometimes a moment of truth is all you need to do, for the self's seed to grow. A drop of recognition is all a mind needs to heal.
Yesterday, a child who has this mother condition was staring at children play while she stood there not knowing what to do. She is being asked by her mother to take care of herself, to be independent too early. I simply showed her how to use the party horn to push a cup down. The squeal of pleasure was disproportionate to the fun. She did not know how to play.
And then she invited herself to my house for a playdate because she said "you wouldn't like it in my house"
Such a sad story Cecillia, children will speak the truth if given the opportunity to.
I am very happy that she had someone there for her.
You're lovely. What a great role to play in a child's life!
Thanks Ernest. But anyone would do the same.
No, anyone should do the same! Ya gotta have love!
I suddenly realize I find it hard to take a compliment about kindness but would gladly and even add to compliments involving intelligence. Now its making me wonder why.
Well, the way I see it, it is logical to have faith in the thinking function and accept compliments for that.
The difficulty is in seeing the worth of feeling as a part of the product of thinking.
2 reasons I think
For many of us,it seems self indulgent to us, as we have a lower self worth around feeling.
I feel it is also difficult to bring up the feeling function when the sword of logos is hanging over it's head.
Or shorthand, ... it is hard to use the feeling function when thinking, although I feel it is essential for balanced thinking.
I know, I know, very Jungian!!!
Interesting use of the word LOGOS. The concept for me is very mystical.
The Logos is the word that you utter with a kind of emotional conviction. It is almost self hypnotic. When you declare it it becomes so.
So the sword of Logos as you put it becomes interesting indeed that when you refuse to declare it, you fear its own power of actualization.
Daniel (but not just Daniel), I think it's correct that people shouldn't always believe that professionals can "fix them", because they can't. I think one lie (at least some) people struggling with "issues" are often told, though, is that they CAN "just" fix themselves. Sure, people have to make some effort; but sometimes the one who tells someone he must fix himself is the person himself; and that can mean expecting the impossible of oneself. When someone then fails to be able to achieve the impossible, his "issues" can be further compounded by his not liking himself and seeing himself as "weak" or "inferior" for not being able to achieve what simply cannot always be achieved. Sometimes, I think, people need to have a solid understanding of any emotional damage they have and learn how to live with whatever they manage to keep under reason control by managing it (the same way someone with a physical problem does with that).
This is, I think, where a professional can help (and may be the only extent to which a professional may be able to help). The problem comes in when people either expect too much of professionals or else expect too much of themselves. The bigger (but, in ways, secondary) problem comes in not when a "stranger" fails us, but when we don't understand why we keep failing ourselves, in spite of all of our best efforts and "sound, intellectual, understanding of 'the right way to think'". That can be the thing that makes us think, "Gee, I know all the right stuff and do all the right stuff and have all the right attitude - there must just be something fundamentally weak or flawed with me in some way." (From there, people can start feeling as if they're inferior to other people without really knowing they feel that way, or at least without realizing why.)
I do think there are a lot of things people can "fix" themselves, but I think those things need to be the things that are about "attitude" or "thinking". Once someone's brain has been conditioned to respond to some things in a certain way (or at least to certain types of behavior in other people) for too long I think it can be something that can only be understood and managed.
One answer, of course, is to stay away from those people who cause that particular kind of response; but the problem with that is that we can then feel "less" and "inferior" because we can't "stand up to" those people (when, apparently, other people seem to be able to). What makes it worse is someone can be strong and capable "on the inside" and wonder why he can't manage to fix this one thing. The other thing that doesn't help is that once someone has been "emotionally beaten" to the point where he can't seem to stand up for himself; he's likely to attract some version of rotten treatment to himself because he can't "nip it in the bud" when it starts to happen in new relationships. Human nature being what it is, there's always one person who will be more aggressive (or passive aggressive) than the other in any relationship - and guess who gets to be the one who ends up being/feeling mistreated in one relationship after another. Then, guess who starts to wonder what it is about himself that makes him STILL not be able to fix what goes on in relationships (even the abusive treatment is limited to emotional abuse). If someone is dealing with someone else who is passive aggressive, that means throwing in some guilt, questioning, and fear as well. It's a whole big cycle.
Having dealt with a lot of teen girls who were abused (in any number of ways), and having experienced more than average person's share of emotional abuse, myself; I think the difference between me and them is that they didn't get to adulthood as "emotionally whole and secure" as I did. I had the advantage of enough self-esteem and self-respect to at least be able to recognize when other people were the ones who were out of line and wrong in a relationship. Even with that "advantage", though, all it's done for me is help me see how it all works and what has gone on. It hasn't helped me overcome any damage that resulted from it (which, in my case, is a matter of my not being able to stand up for myself when someone really needs to be stood up to, because I feel like a "short circuit happens somewhere" and makes it impossible for me to speak up). (And this is coming from someone who is strong, confident, and generally has a pretty good understanding of herself and people in general. I have no problems whatsoever dealing with other people who "operate the way you're supposed to in a relationship". The minute I'm dealing with someone with too much ego or too much aggressiveness, I'm out of luck. What makes it worse is that the people who "operate" this way don't/won't respect anything or anybody who doesn't operate on the same terms - and that makes the behavior get worse and worse.
What's the answer? Get medication that will make me "braver" in these situations that involve other people's bad behavior? Have some professional tell me all the stuff I already know about what "the right" response would be or who is behaving in away that isn't healthy in a relationship?
The one thing my "advantage" has given me (over those teen girls who grew up in abuse) is that I have the self-confidence and sureness to know that if I can't fix this issue myself it isn't for lack of trying or lack of thinking I ought to be the one who should be able to do it. Those girls I knew grew up hearing either that they had to "take responsibility themselves" or else that they would always need therapy for the rest of their lives and without it they couldn't function.
To me, in a lot of instances (maybe most), both of those messages were misguided (and that's where people working in the field of psychology/psychiatry often miss the mark).
As for me, if I'm dealing with people who "play fair" I have no problems dealing with anyone, standing up for myself (I'm a force to be reckoned with, in fact), or speaking up. In general, I enjoy all my "well adjustedness", self-confidence, and skill in relationships. It's just that thing that happens when someone else doesn't "play fair".
Someone might say, "Well, if you can't manage across the board and can only manage when people play fairly, you're not all that well adjusted and strong." I think that, myself. Then again, I think, "Can we measure ourselves and our 'adjustedness' based on our ability to play dirty at all costs?" Sometimes the choice is to know you have to stay by yourself because you know there's a good chance you'll end up in yet another one of "those situations" or else to go with the "at all costs" thing and end up hurting people or damaging relationships we don't want to damage - and ending up alienating, and driving away, people we care about (and sometimes people we know have, themselves, already been so hurt in this life we don't want to add to that).
This is where I think a relationship therapist/family therapist can play an important role; but if the problem isn't a matter of a marriage or a parent/child type of thing; how does someone get some people to go the therapy as a "team" with them?
A whole different example of a problem that isn't fixable is that babies/toddlers who don't get the right kind of nurturing (which doesn't even have to be abusive) can have their brain "wiring" go wrong with something like the way their stress-response system functions for the rest of their life.
When brain "wiring" and/or responses get altered there's not much a person can do himself; and as far as I can tell, there's often not much mental-health people can do to fix it either. That goes back to the learning to manage/control the damage as much as possible; but also, I think, separating and isolating such damage in a way that we realize we're "otherwise fine". Maybe that means having a little bit of fractured self-esteem, but at least it preserves some of it.
Back in the day, 'doctors' used to heal a variety of illnesses by using leaches. Just like the study of anatomy and biology has progressed over time, so will psychology.
If the treatment of mental health patients was bad before psychology, it was horrific before that.
I agree. Had I been born even 10 years earlier, the process of recovering my life would have been exponentially more difficult. I also agree that regardless of whether or not we are religious, there is a certain "spirituality" that is required for us to be healthy. It does not have to do with God, it has to do with awareness of ourselves in relation to the universe and life. That was a HUGE paradigm shift for me. However, for those who are religious, they are on their "right" path. There can't be one way, because we are all individuals, not replications of the same person.
interesting thought Daniel about being born earlier. but we come into life to learn lessons, so this must be yours. self-awareness is a huge paradigm shift, understanding ourselves in relation to being connected to something outside of ourselves, something real. but without the self-awareness, we don't get it.
good for you for making those breakthroughs and finding the right people to help. sometimes phychotherapists leave people in their past, as you say, always the victim.
"True story. I hope it satisfies you Irish and Earnest."
Ron, great information, all these bits of information help to draw a picture of what does and doesn't work in therapy and is valuable to those of us who wish to know as much as possible about this subject.
Thanks earnest. I haven't contributed that much but it does appear that what I have contributed people such as SomeWayOttaHere have run with and taken further. I guess I am the catalyst for some of the discussions which have been quite good and healthy and that is fine with me.
Why would psychology be evil? It's not always accurate, but why would it be, when our minds aren't always accurate?
most people have been conditioned to live on the surface. this quote reminds me of a lot of what Thoreau talks about. his book 'Walden' is a great therapist in itself if read with awareness.
"no man ever stood the lower in my estimation for having a patch in his clothes; yet I am sure that there is greater anxiety, commonly, to have fashionable, or at least clean and unpatched clothes, than to have a sound conscience."
I truth fully do not like Jung that much. I know that a lot of therapists work with him. At least at the bare bones level. But I think that a therapist should be more concerned with accepting their client, and probing the pus filled wounds. It takes an exceptional person to care enough about their clients to do this. It takes even more for this exceptional person to eat the cost so that a poor person can recieve the treatment she needs. I am lucky enough to have met one, and I have now have a therapist that probes the wounds. So I am lucky in that manner.
As far as I'm concerned, psychology & psychotherapy are neither evil nor accurate. Each is simply beneficial when applied correctly.
I don't need either, i have already repented of my sins. God fixes everybody because he knows the hearts. Working on the inside of people is actually what he does, its called repair work. So yah, spend money on this dude with a certificate for whatever, but the God of all things is free and 100% accurate.
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