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What are numbers? are they absolutes or abstracts?

  1. ceciliabeltran profile image84
    ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago

    Some people think that zero is nothing. I know for a fact that zero represents "cannot count".  Because we create units and assign numbers to them.  that is why zero=infinity.

    Numbers are abstracts that allow us to measure whatever it is we like to measure. Zero is just a beginning of measurement or a direction of value.  You go to zero, you diminish in measurable value. You towards infinity, you diminish measurable value.

    But numbers are abstract tools to measure whatever we want. we can count heads, or hairs, assign values like one head or million hairs. and count them in 1s or 1 million, two million etc all the while counting the same things.

    Do you agree or disagree?

    1. bestisland profile image61
      bestislandposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Can you have zero zeros?

    2. profile image0
      Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I disagree.
      Numbers are absolutes.
      It's only when people try to "crunch" the numbers that the situation gets iffy.  lol

    3. Susana S profile image91
      Susana Sposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I agree that numbers are abstracts - handy tools for measurement - but numbers only make sense when the units are agreed by users. Here's a great program on the difficulty involved in measuring and defining units - in this case "one degree" of temperature. I'm sure you'd enjoy it Cecilia if you had time to watch it: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0 … ne_Degree/

      This thread reminded me of another documentary I saw fairly recently where several top mathematicians proposed that numbers do not go on forever and that you cannot always add one. It was pretty mind boggling, but the basic idea was the number 1 represents the whole, therefore numbers can only represent fractions of the whole, which makes numbers finite, rather than infinite.

  2. Pcunix profile image88
    Pcunixposted 6 years ago

    How many elephants in your sink, Cecila?

    1. ceciliabeltran profile image84
      ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      What was the temperature yesterday. That's right zero. Oh that's right celcius or fahrenheit? need to clarify what unit of measurement.

  3. Pcunix profile image88
    Pcunixposted 6 years ago

    Cecilia dent believe in integers. She says famous mathematicians don't either.

    She will expand on this, I'm sure.

    Point of reference: this all came about when Cecilia got terribly confused in another thread and didn't realize we were actually talking about logic zero and logic one. Ever reliable, she grabbed that and swam hard to prove  that nothing can be zero, but can only approach it. 

    I've been laughing ever since.

    1. ceciliabeltran profile image84
      ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      That's like saying I don't believe in colors. smile

      i however know what colors are. They are the illusion of my optic nerves. You however think that even if you are blind the color yellow still exists. If you are a fly, yellow is still a reality.

      and you are laughing just like a two year old would laugh when I say, "you're a bag of mostly water." of course its funny to you.

      1. Pcunix profile image88
        Pcunixposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Where did you ever get that idea, Cecilia?  Trying to put words in my mouth?  Search around: you'll find me pointing out that yellow exists as a range of wavelengths over and over again.

        Zero does not equal infinity.

        Zero is an integer. Logical zero (which is what started you on this nonsense) is a representation of false.

        1. ceciliabeltran profile image84
          ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Zero, the biography of a dangerous idea chapter 6.  chapter title : Infinity's Twin,
          the infinite nature of zero. -charles siefe

          "Zero and infinity are two sides of the same coin, equal and opposite, yin and yang"

          reviews: A stunning chronicle of denial, heresy, and grudging acceptance of zero and its companion concepts, infinity and void."
          -US news and world report.

          1. Pcunix profile image88
            Pcunixposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Opposite.

            OPPOSITE.

            Not 0 =infinity.

            Sheesh..

  4. paradigmsearch profile image85
    paradigmsearchposted 6 years ago

    Zero is nothing.

    One is something.

    And zero is the opposite of infinity.

    Edit: Have a nice day. smile

    1. ceciliabeltran profile image84
      ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      really, then why is zero=infinity? because you are not counting absolutes, you are counting units of measurement.

      zero=infinity because you both can't count them. after the whole number 1 fragment to fractions, it heads towards zero but never really gets there.

      zero apples, 10 oranges. zero oranges, 2 apples. there is always a qualifier of what is being measured. in truth, zero represents starting point of measurement. not an actual value.

      1. Pcunix profile image88
        Pcunixposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        What does a logical zero count?

        1. ceciliabeltran profile image84
          ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          nothing. it doesn't count anything.  It however determines the position where measurement begins.

          1. Pcunix profile image88
            Pcunixposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            A logical zero determines position?

            I'm still laughing. A little louder just now.

            1. ceciliabeltran profile image84
              ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              a beginning of measurement. yes.

              it is a position of the number line that identifies value.

              But if you count, scalp to one inch of hair. you start with scalp as zero. But when you are measuring density of scalp. does that make scalp zero still? no. zero is the beginning of measuring. But zero itself means nothing to count. not nonexistent.

        2. ceciliabeltran profile image84
          ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          How many inches are your rainbow hair? then measure that in centimeters. then measure that in millimeters. Notice that the numbers are changing but the length of your hair has not grown?

          numbers are units of measurements. they are abstracts.

          1. Pcunix profile image88
            Pcunixposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            What does logical zero measure?

            This is where you went off the deep end in that other thread.

            For those who were not there, I used a NAND gate as an example of a decision making mechanism and mentioned that its inputs and outputs are zero or one.

            This sent Cecilia into a rant about zero not existing. She even read a book that says it doesn't exist, so therefore I was absolutely wrong about decision making.

            This is why I am still laughing.

      2. paradigmsearch profile image85
        paradigmsearchposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        If you go to my profile page and click the link at the top, one of my associates will discuss this with you.

        1. ceciliabeltran profile image84
          ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          well you can discuss it with oxford prof, kaplan. because he wrote a book explaining zero as a direction in his best-selling paperback the history of zero.  I cannot believe you guys don't understand what I mean that zero is a beginning,  a starting point of measurement.

          zero degrees celsius in not the same as fahrenheit. the numbers are different but the heat presence is the same. it all depends where you start measuring.

          1. paradigmsearch profile image85
            paradigmsearchposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            And I can’t believe you didn’t go to my profile page… smile

            1. ceciliabeltran profile image84
              ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              I did. your associates and oxford can discuss it.

              1. paradigmsearch profile image85
                paradigmsearchposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                *** POOF ***

                1. ceciliabeltran profile image84
                  ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  oh, let me go through it, after I chew my milkfish and carrot.

                  I did look and was pleased to see mandelbrot sets...did not find the zero hub though, send me a private email with the link.

                  1. paradigmsearch profile image85
                    paradigmsearchposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    It’s been known to make people’s heads explode so be careful.

                    In fact, I’ve just reread it…

          2. Beelzedad profile image59
            Beelzedadposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            ____*____*____*____
                  -1       0     +1


            Notice that it doesn't go:

            ____*_____*____
                   -1      +1

            smile

            1. ceciliabeltran profile image84
              ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              notice how you're the only one who is not getting the argument. lol

              1. Pcunix profile image88
                Pcunixposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Yeah. He's the only one Cecilia.

                How many elephants?

                What is a logical zero?

                1. ceciliabeltran profile image84
                  ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  what is the temperature? zero degrees are you frozen solid?

  5. superwags profile image82
    superwagsposted 6 years ago

    I'd question whether infinity can exist. It doesn't make sense in terms of representing a number. I guess it's down to interpretation, we need it for calculations obviously. It is an interesting concept. It certainly is't an absolute.

    The largest finite number s Graham's number. But there isn't enough space in the universe to write it down. We know that the last digit is a seven.

    1. ceciliabeltran profile image84
      ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      it is just a way of saying "cannot be counted". in truth zero has no opposite.

      but people here think that zero and infinity are opposites. they are  not. they are equal, because both cannot be measured, cannot be counted. my daughter gets this. and she's 6.

      1. Pcunix profile image88
        Pcunixposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Well, that does it then.  If a six year old believes it, it must be true.

        1. ceciliabeltran profile image84
          ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          no she figured it out. by thinking about it. luckily her abstract reasoning is the 95th percentile as measured by standardized tests.

          1. Pcunix profile image88
            Pcunixposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            I have her beat.  I score above that by far.  99+ on all measures except spatial reasoning (I can't fold up little boxes in my mind).

            So I guess that's that, right?  I'm smarter so I win.  Standardized tests say so.

            1. ceciliabeltran profile image84
              ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              well, it doesn't seem that way since you cannot get the concept that numbers are measuring units. but WE assign the units.

              For instance your hair, and the heads in your house.
              I can count in hair, or in heads.
              in ones or in tens. It all depends on where I start counting or what I'm counting.

              So your premise of losing wallet is not zero, it's negative wallet. because you are measuring wallet that used to exist. clear? not clear. maybe you should retake those standardized tests. they improve in time you know. how long has it been?

        2. skyfire profile image72
          skyfireposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          lol

      2. superwags profile image82
        superwagsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Zero can be measured. You just have to have defined a scale against which to measure it. It doesn't need an opposite.

        It is essential to mathematics and quantifiable by mathematics and is therefore a number.

        1. ceciliabeltran profile image84
          ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          A number is a unit of measurement. And zero is the beginning of measurement. It does necessarily mean there is nothing there.

          the confusion here is a true zero can ever be achieved. it is a direction of counting in the number line.

          1. superwags profile image82
            superwagsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Again, it depends upon the scale; it is a number between -1 and 1. What temperature does water freeze at (to the nearest whole)? Zero doesn't have to be the start of a measurement.

            True zero can't be achieved in terms of physics inside of the universe. That's what universe is; maths, effectively. Is that what you mean?

            1. bestisland profile image61
              bestislandposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              If I have one donut I eat that donut. How many donuts do I have. Absolutely zero. Am I close?

              1. superwags profile image82
                superwagsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Yep, you're bang on.

                1. ceciliabeltran profile image84
                  ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  until you start measuring the donuts in molecules. that's when the number changes.

                  see, it depends on what you start measuring.

                  1. superwags profile image82
                    superwagsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    That isn't how we measure donuts.

                    Once the number has been assigned to a concept then it becomes absolute. It doesn't mean that zero doesn't exist, it does, look at the temperature scales that you just mentioned; both have zero intergers.

              2. ceciliabeltran profile image84
                ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                really? did you check your teeth? You could have 1/100th of a donut.

                1. bestisland profile image61
                  bestislandposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Trust me I got it all.

                  1. ceciliabeltran profile image84
                    ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    lol you licked your fingers and everything?

    2. paradigmsearch profile image85
      paradigmsearchposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Everyday I learn something here. Today it is Graham's number (pesky arrows...). smile

      1. ceciliabeltran profile image84
        ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Graham's number...that is new. (beelzedad, is still giving me elementary arguments....glad to know YOU CAN ACTUALLY LEARN SOMETHING NEW IN FORUMS)

        1. Beelzedad profile image59
          Beelzedadposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Considering that your understanding of the subject matter does not appear to have achieved elementary levels as yet, the response was fitting and easily refuted your assertions. smile

        2. paradigmsearch profile image85
          paradigmsearchposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          In the Education and Science Forum, yes. smile

          As to certain other well-known forums… lol

      2. superwags profile image82
        superwagsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Graham's number is so large that if you could write a sigle digit of it on an atom, then there wouldn't be enough atoms in the universe to fit it on.

        Isn't science baffling and wonderful?!

        1. ceciliabeltran profile image84
          ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          the amount of things the human mind can conceive is indeed wonderful, and that extends outside of things we can prove.

          human imagination is truly a wonderful thing.

          1. Pcunix profile image88
            Pcunixposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            You ought to know..

            1. ceciliabeltran profile image84
              ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              yes, live vicariously through me. Because your wiring makes it impossible for you. I'm really sorry but it is true.

              1. Pcunix profile image88
                Pcunixposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                My wiring certainly is different than yours. I have to agree with that.

                However, unlike you, I actually understand mathematicss, science and logic.  I don't read books and misunderstand them so badly that I make ridiculous statements as you have here.

                1. ceciliabeltran profile image84
                  ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  mathematiccssssss...?

                  like the non-ridiculous statements you made about proving no gods exists because  sentience needs a storage of memory, but only if sentience is not measured or defined. yes absolutely your wiring is different.

                  1. Pcunix profile image88
                    Pcunixposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    The ridiculous statements that none of you can refute without magic..

  6. skyfire profile image72
    skyfireposted 6 years ago

    Eh ? Zero is not an infinite number.

    Zero is absence of quantifiable whereas infinite numbers are things which are not quantifiable. You don't count zero stars in the sky but you do attempt to count few starts out of infinity(which is again assumption that there are infinite to begin with).

    1. ceciliabeltran profile image84
      ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      quantifiable is the correct term.

      you assign what is being measured. zero is not descriptive of a thing. or an existence. it is descriptive of a position in the measurement of things.

      zero is when no "thing" can be measured. thing being an X which you can assign.

      zero is an abstract.

  7. fatfist profile image84
    fatfistposted 6 years ago

    Last Sunday Service, my Pastor told me that he was going to show me a "zero"-dimensional Black Hole, of "infinite"-density.

    I freaked out...so I immediately called the police and had him arrested for attempted indecent exposure. I hope that jail-time will teach him to choose his words wisely.

  8. Apepperson profile image59
    Apeppersonposted 6 years ago

    I had a theory about numbers after I barely passed Algebra I. After passing Algebra II with a steep grading curve and flunking Trig, my theory was proven to be a fact.

    Numbers are Evil! Pure Evil!

    1. ceciliabeltran profile image84
      ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      lol you had bad teachers and you probably missed one class and the rest unravelled. Math understanding is based on a heirarchy of knowledge. if you missed a class, then the picture will be confusing.

      good teachers have been known to make mathematicians out of artist types.

  9. ceciliabeltran profile image84
    ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago

    Hey, look the dictionary has all the definitions, including mine!

    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/zero

  10. Susana S profile image91
    Susana Sposted 6 years ago

    On another point, when talking about zero it's well worth looking at the history of zero: http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/about/zero.jsp

    I think zero is a function, not an absolute.

 
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