This is how your faith causes believers to react. A childish emotional reaction when their faith is offended. Emotional reactions contradict logical reactions. You wouldn't believe this because your faith wouldn't allow it.
I don't have to pull out my book of belief to read what I believe, I have them memorized. They were individual thoughts, not trained ones. Individual ones are easier to remember than the trained ones. The trained ones only come through repitition like reading the bible over and over. The individual ones come naturally.
Not that I am happy with Marine's 'little experiment', but he did force a point in front of the class. We think too much as a group and not enough as individuals.
Check out the thread ... another person responded congratulating Marine on being saved. They did so without reading the thread at all ... because they have been trained to congratulate a person for being saved, and no ignore the many posts in the thread that speak out to the contrary.
I think the idea of individualism is threatening because believers see it as 4.5 billion individual churches opening up, each with their own road to ascension. The fact is, a man's relationship with God has and was always meant to be intimate and personal.
Noah never attended a church, nor did Adam or Moses. They spoke to God privately and believed as they felt they should. Their beliefs were individualistic, as no one was there to tell them how they should believe.
For many years I was like you. minding over the crops of my neighbors as I saw them unfit to handle a plow, but when I let it all go I discovered my own crop had run foul from neglect, making me a poor choice to be followed.
That's when I decided to mind my own crops and only offer advice when encouraged to do so ... and my harvests have been bountiful ever since.
We ARE individuals, so we must have an individual relationship with God. And should they chose to ignore or disbelieve in God, well, that's a decision that only affects them, and none of us can be totally certain it might not have any affect at all.
Have any of us witnessed a sinner burn in purgatory with our own eyes? Have any of us seen a person ascend to heaven? We accept the Bible and everything in it with faith because we feel we have proven it to ourselves as true ... and we must allow others the chance to do the same.
Had God wanted us all to believe the same then we would have all been born of the same womb. God respects individualism ... and what proof do I have of that? Because God created individualism on day one when he made Adam and Eve, instead of two like-minded Adams.
Given that Adam would never age nor die, there was never a reason to create a being so different from himself, unless individualism had been the true intent.
And for the non-believers it's an easier leap ... As we are not exact clones of each other, it's obvious nature favors randomness and would expect us to behave as individuals.
Amazing. I very much respect what you wrote. I'm sorry to say that some or many believers will now bad mouth you for saying you learned something from a non believer. Thank you for having a strong enough mind to write your honest opinion.
Another assumption I find amusing is, many assume that I don't believe in creation simply because I don't believe the bible while never asking the question if I believe in a creator on an individual level.
"another person responded congratulating Marine on being saved. They did so without reading the thread at all ... because they have been trained to congratulate a person for being saved, and no ignore the many posts in the thread that speak out to the contrary."
actually, he never came clean in that thread. to find anything, one had to track where else Marine was posting in hub pages. I know you two are buddy buddy and peanut butter and jelly or whatever- but even after reading the whole hub, I was not sure.
Then you don't know history well ... I was the one that outed him on the first page and me and marine have rarely seen eye to eye in the past. I do, however, agree with him on the fact that faith CAN be blind, but I do not subscribe to the point that ALL faith is blind.
Case in point ... I'm a believer, as is Thetruthhurts. We both outed the hoax immediately, but people wouldn't believe what we had to say because Thetruthhurts is often seen as the zealot and I'm often seen as a non-believer because I believe in evolution.
What me and Thetruthhurts both agree on is that none of us has all of the answers and that when something doesn't seem quite right we question it.
That was the point of my post ... we all knew marine's previous views and yet few questioned his miraculous transformation, even when people were stating it was all a hoax. We want so much to believe in change that we are willing to get suckered in ... and I know that's the frustration you feel right now, as you see yourself as no more than a sap that got taken.
That's why I kept digging at Marine to out the truth as I knew how others would see his deceit when it was finally fully exposed, and I knew how it would hurt and anger people ... and I didn't want to see things build up to that.
I genuinely like people and I am very protective of those around me. Because of that nature, I'll do anything in my power to stop one person from hurting the feelings of another when it's within my power to do so. Unfortunately, faith trumped the truth I was offering, and many saw me as picking on Marine for being saved. Nothing could prove further from the truth, as I have congratulated others for being saved, when I knew the statement to be true.
It's not my job to look out for others, but I do accept it as part of what I am. Case in point, when Spiderpam was being called names. While we don't see eye to eye on many things, I still respect her as a human being and stood up for her when she was being oppressed.
As a believer you can't pick your battles ... you stick up for anyone who is being oppressed, despite your differences with that person.
Just like now, if someone were to come into this thread and start calling you names. I would see if you had given them enough reason to do so (had you called them names in the past or wronged them grievously?). If I found you were being wronged unfairly I would defend you to the hilt.
What Marinealways did in that thread was wrong, but the message was one many of us needed to hear ... never follow blindly ... justify each step by assuring that the ground you chose to step upon is truly there.
By that I mean ... always seek proof for everything ... and your faith will become that much stronger, as you will prove it to yourself every day.
I think many people were happy for him, not because they were trained to be so without thinking but because the thread was too long to read. Since this idea was "in the air" I guess, I had been expecting someone to do exactly what he did so it didn't catch me by surprise. Plus I'm naturally (or have been trained to be :-) suspicious generally.
marine - is what hard to understand? That you intentionally used the word 'individual' again, or that you may believe in a creator?
Either way, no, of course it's not hard for me to understand, why would you ask that? Even if it wasn't intentional, there's no insult (you sound insulted). I just thought you may have done it to be amusing.
Well that's mostly true, but if there's one thing Marines do its brag. We even brag about how well we brag, sailors complain, and jarheads brag. Trust me go hang out in the barracks at Lejeune and bring some cotton for your ears. Brag, brag, brag. Now if someone actually brags they were special ops, then in that case, yes they are lying their face off.
That's why I said the 'real hero's' act a certain way. You have your military backing. I have hundreds of interviews with WWII vets for one of the books I am finishing. They don't all brag. thats for certain.
Now that just hurts...good thing I don't call myself a hero, those guys have white crosses on their graves and tombstones in Arlington. Nice to see you don't brag yourself, or act condescendingly or critically of everyone who disagrees with you, or else your anger over marine would almost seem a little hypocritical and wasted. You certainly would never resort to name calling or personal insults...not you never.
Sooner you go ahead and show all the world just who you really are. You were made a fool of and now you want to take it out on someone. So go ahead and show all of us on Hubpages just how mature and Christlike you really are. say whatever you want, do whatever you want, and fling all the crap you want. I know who I am and what I've said and I apologize when I go to far and say so. if you have some personal issue with me then say what you will and let all of the forums see how you are. I know my past and I am honest about it and forthright with everyone I meet today. What I do not do is claim to be something I'm not and cry on three threads about how hurt I was and show how good i am by starting a thread to criticize another hubber. So go ahead and start your crap and we'll see how long it takes you to get banned.
Or you could just wait a few hours for me to leave then talk about my integrity to people. that's your stile isn't it.
What's that, don't let your nuts lock up now that your mouth has run off with you. It's okay to let everyone see how you really are. You want to unload on people like me so bad you can taste it. But you're afraid, afraid people will see all that hate and anger that's really there. You want to see people like marine burn in hell, you want the world to end so you can get your reward and make sure all those people who dared to question you get what they deserve. he didn't make a fool of you, you made a fool of yourself.
yeah you're a fountain of knowledge, I told them to walk away because they were being played, and manipulated, but I see your game and you don't scare me, all you have is the same tired little routine, and insults. People almost felt bad for you, then you opened your mouth again. Get over your problem and anger towards people with the courage to do what you wish you could.
Wait, I got it...You silly love filled believer, I hope your eternal reward is a life in God's presence filled with the joy and love that comes from being united with your creator, and to go forth in purpose....Ha take that.
Anyway, I meant what I said to you on the other thread, let it go, and walk on. Keep your faith close and live a good life. We all agree it was a childish game and in poor taste, but what can you do. Worry about yourself and the ones you can save, God is big enough to deal with the rest. It's been fun playing tennis, but I have to go, have some studying to do, and an early appointment. Don't let people get you so worked up, it's not good for your sanity.
this just leads to your "the bible was created" BS. You are a circle of little new information. 2 months of the same agenda and you only have Cags on your team. your lack of historical backing and biblical knowledge are not comical unless you are from the outide looking in. Me.
I do not have a team. How can we be a team when we have different individual beliefs? Just because we can come to logical conclusions doesn't mean we are the devil. What historical evidence proves the bible as divine to you? Why do you believe you are favored to believe and I am not?
im lost goodnight boys. hope you come to some sort of standstill. you will never convince each other, and bans only last 3 days. unless you get a new profile. marine, really, if somethings wrong, write me. forums are bs
wait right by your key pad for a half hour or so. I'll pull up some scripture that I think you need. If it takes a little longer, keep waiting- I just want to make sure I am giving you the right stuff.
The funny thing about this statement is: If my kid had a life threatening illness that could be cured with medicine, I would rely on logic and medicine to save my childs life.
I wouldn't be surprised if you let your child die because you would pick faith over medicine. It wouldn't be a first a believer has trusted faith over medicine letting their child die of a curable disease that could have been treated with medicine.
Faith and trust in God are like the two elements of water - hydrogen and oxygen - you can't have water without both of them together. You can't be a Christian without having faith and trust together. ...
Faith closes the mind. It is pure idol worship. Faith is a way to quit using, "God given" power of Reason and Logic, and cause the faithful to embrace doctrines that moral people reject.The God of the...
I am very bored with the bible trained belief system when there is no logic, only faith and interpretation to answer questions in a circle arguement to protect a government separatist god. Now, just for entertainment, I...