Are we making a mistake by taking Revelations too literal?

1. 69

   IntimatEvolutionposted 13 years ago

   When you read the Book of Revelations, it reads like a good sci-fy story, or mythical mystery novel does. Maybe this is because of the fact that the Book of Revelations is virtually a storyline about a dream, which a man named John once had a long, long, long time ago.
   
   Most scholars now agree that the author of Revelations was not the Apostle John, but, rather a charismatic follower of Christ either named John, or just use the name of John for  authorship.  Whatever the case maybe, for more than sixteen hundred years now, the book of Revelations has been the center of controversy. 
   
   For many Christian followers, the book of Revelations is a prophecy of how the world will end.  In fact, it is what we as Christian believers are taught to believe.  However, I been tossing around another idea.  I've come to think of the book as nothing more than a big hoax.  Hoax might not be the correct term, but, I've come to think of the Book of Revelations, as nothing more than what it is.  Which is a mere reflection of an old man's dream.  A dream that bared little prophecy, but, more like a life lesson for the people of that time period.
   
   Was the Book of Revelation, so titled because of what it was doing?  Is it possible that for over sixteen hundred years, Christians have been fooled into thinking that this book is about the end of the world, when in actual reality it is just an old story of a dream a man once had, that got wrote down?  If a person reveals a dream, isn't that considered a "revelation?"
   
   What gives?  How could so many be duped this badly? Has the Book of Revelation been purposefully misrepresented?  If so why?
   
   One more thing; the Gospel of Philip was the other text being considered for this position.  They say that the Gospel of Philip is actually more representative of the end times, and is more closely related to what is possible and real. Any thoughts on this?

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      Disappearingheadposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      historically the church has invented conspiracy theories for how the world will end, then tried to validate these theories by dubious interpretations of Revelation. I hear all sorts of nonsence about the EU being a Satanic re-birth of the Roman Empire, or that we will all be forced to have micrchips implated in our heads.
      
      The key points that are missed is in John's opening statments:
      1) It is a Revelation of Jesus Christ
      2) The angel came and signified it to John. That is gave the message through signs which by definition means that everything in the book is symbolic of something else. Yet the church picks and chooses what it wants to say is symbolic and which are real. So we get all the way through saying that the beast, false prophet, 666, scorpions, eagles, whore, scarlet beast, are symbols but the lake of fire is real and literal. This makes no logical sense. In the light of the whol book, the Lake of Fire must also be symbolic of something else.

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         Flightkeeperposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         I thought the EU already had a Satanic rebirth of the Roman Empire -- what the heck was Hitler?

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         IntimatEvolutionposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         This is why I like the Gospel of Philip better.  I think it should have been chosen over the Book of Revelations. 
         
         I'm in agreement that Revelations is taken far to literally.

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            Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            I've stayed off of this one cause ..  I think .. everyone already knows what I think.
            
               There are too many references of time lines that would be necessary to understand; in order to even attempt to understand all of this.  Without a reference of the time frames that are depicted;  we are just shooting in the dark without that knowledge.

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   Twenty One Daysposted 13 years ago

   Something sadly missed in all the hype surrounding 'christian' victory over the world, the 'devil' and apparently 'non-believers' is what the entire revelation is about. It states in the opening line the entire point of that mystery/enigma/revealing/revelation is, but it is ignored, overlooked or taken lightly.
   
   There is nothing in there -according to my unbiased reading of it-- that leads to apocalypse. Where it leads is someplace 'Christians' fear to go. Because of such misrepresentation, millions if not billions of believing and former believing, have wasted years of possibility. Years of wonderful potential and to actual enjoy the reason it was revealed and certainly more than they realize.
   
   Yes, duped is the word. Why? Because it is human blindness and laziness to put the burden on another. Some put the burden on Y`shua, others the burden on the devil, still others the non-believing and even still those, being once duped, who put the burden back on the believing.
   
   "This is the enigma of Y`shua Moshiach, which the Father gave him show his servants what must soon take place***; making it known (revealing the mystery) by sending his angel to his servant John [of the province of Caesarea Philippi], who testifies to everything he saw*** —that is, the word of Creator and the testimony of Y`shua Moshiach.
   
   As for Phillip, I must ask which one. There was one who followed Y`shua and one who followed S/Paul. John was of the province of Caesarea Philippi.
   
   ***This statement is believed to be mis-written, as it should read: things which are or must be. Not in the sense of a coming to pass, like passover but an event happening or a continuous happening.
   ***Note the present-past tone, where John states he is testifying to what he saw: He saw the word of Creator, in the flesh and the testimony of that word...

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      alternate poetposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Nicely put - and with sound information to back it up.

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         Twenty One Daysposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Thank you, Poet.
         The letter is just beautiful, if read from John's perspective. My reading of it tells me, he was recalling all the events that led up to the sacrifice, the sacrifice itself, removal of the problems/stumbling block and restoration of the original purpose of humanity. The difference is found in the spiritual sight and where, at the end of the dream, Johns states the new testimony, new word is located --the same place it was before the Adamic Inception --in the hearts of all human beings who will take the gift, as it is, and live in it. Living around it, near it or half way in it, doesn't cut it (as the first portion of the dream states to the sevenfold 'churches'. Just amazing and poetic.

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         IntimatEvolutionposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Yes, I totally agree with this statement. 
         
         But still, we haven't heard from the side that feels it is the prophecy that will end all time.  With all the 2012 hype- I think this topic about Revelations needs to be challenged and addressed, before someone crazy does something to help fulfill the so called prophecy.  Which I think is a very real possibility.  Don't any of you all?

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            alternate poetposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            People are already doing crazy things to try and make it come true, Bush with his crusade, the Pope with his direct insult to Islam as soon as got uner the mitre, and the slobbering fanatics among the christians intent on provoking hostilities in the areas that are mentioned.  This is fed by the slobbering fanatics of Islam and directly provoked by Bin Laden in his engineering a twin tower disaster, and so putting an event into the predicted timeline, for the effect of it.  I guess the strange twisted logic is that by 'believers' engineering the events they could then claim this as some kind of proof of their stone age tomes and prophesies.

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            1. 69

               IntimatEvolutionposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               Speaking of the Pope, am I the only one who thinks that man is really evil incarnate?  He's creepy.  I see nothing holy and spiritual in him.
               
               Just look at him..........
               
               
               
               
               Evil I tell ya.

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   2. 69

      IntimatEvolutionposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I will never refer to someone of the Pauline doctrine, unless I'm referencing a Pope.  I'm more of the Ebionite belief. as was the disciples, Jesus' brothers James, Seth and Jude, the virgin Mary, etc...

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         Twenty One Daysposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         I see. Yet, to impose the law and deny divinity kind of counteracts the message of Revelation, yes?
         Some of the most non-elite members of the following, including a Gentile soldier considered Y`shua divine. Though I am inclined to accept a non-worship relationship of Y`shua, I cannot openly reject his divinity. Of course anything divine is of a spiritual circumference, and not so much or at all, a religious one. Which is where the biggest misconception of the entire letter is born. Notice how 3 little words altered, have caused a sh!te storm. All because some people were trying to overthrow romantic (roman) ideology, which was mixing with this 'new' ideology. The result was Rome and Greece indoctrinating the Judaic Law with the principles of this idea to form Christianity, Catholicism, et al. Pagan (ba`al) ideology needed to survive and to do so, it absorbed the Judaic law into the pagan ritual system. (As other letters state, it was pagans who first titled the 'new' sect Christians.)
         
         Which again points to this fellow vision/dream/enigma. A man calling himself John, expresses the divinity of the sacrifice and the works therein...

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            IntimatEvolutionposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Sorry 21, I don't follow.
            
            ???

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               Twenty One Daysposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               sorry, love. I had the thought x hours ago and lost it in sleep.
               Ebionite (Gnostic) word. Which I support to a measure.

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                  IntimatEvolutionposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  I completely feel it is the true way to follow Christ.  However, I really do not know what it means to be Jewish, and believe in Christ.  So I'm not sure where I would start.

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                     Twenty One Daysposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     Might I recommend two things to confirm following:
                     
                     1. be circumcised in your heart & mind, meaning remove the foreskin of necessity/thinking and enjoy the liberty provided free of charge into the Life explained by Y`shua and proven by his works.
                     2. Do not be duped into physical, metaphysical or any other thing that would cause you to lose focus on that life. To do so, plunges one back into the Adamic Inception, all over again.
                     
                     (it is because of thinkers and seekers like you, Julie, that i am drawn to speak these things. Thank you. Seriously, thank you.)

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   melporposted 13 years ago

   The Book of Revelations is just that a dream that John had on Patmos. It does not predict the future in anyway. It is just the views in the minds of early believers at the time. They simply believed this was how the world was going to end as they knew it at the time.

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      IntimatEvolutionposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Do you think this was the apostle John?

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         paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Then who was this John?

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            IntimatEvolutionposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            As I wrote earlier, "Most scholars now agree that the author of Revelations was not the Apostle John, but, rather a charismatic follower of Christ either named John, or someone who just use the name of John for his authorship."

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               paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               Any possibilty of it being authored by John the Baptist, cousin of Jesus?

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                  J.R. Smithposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Johnwas beheaded. The bible says it was john,the apostle who ended up on the island of patmos.

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                     paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     That narration seems more to be a fiction that real, in my opinion.

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               Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               Ha IntimatEvolution ..   Nice hat.   
                 Guess ya know I think?
                
               
               IE wrote  ... "Most scholars now agree that the author of Revelations was not the Apostle John
               ---------
               
               I would have to ask; what makes them think that?
               I do not see how that claim can be proven or dis proven.
                    
               
               Since The Apostle was on the Island prison before it was closed down and the prisoners released in 96 AD. If it was written at a later date This book would have had to have been written from a biographical prospective. 
                  
                 What comes to my mind is IF it nor any other like had been written.
               
                 How would that have changed the way that we understand what is left of the bible?
                
                 I had never thought about how this book backlashes through all other prophesy?  affecting how we understand them.
                        When it shouldn't.
               
                  The earlier writings SHOULD control how later writings are understood, Not the other way around.

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4. 69

   IntimatEvolutionposted 13 years ago

   No.  Not in my opinion that is.  But I guess anyone could speculate whatever they like.  But the text is of later origin.  This they are sure about.

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5. 57

   Jeramiposted 13 years ago

   I believe that to validate or eliminate this book of prophesy, we would have to look at all of the prophesy as told in the whole bible.
      Second Peter 1:20 says it all.  We are not to apply personal interpret upon the prophesy o scripture.
      But everyone is doing it.
      There are many prophesy written in the old testament that were fulfilled in those times of old; yet they are interpreted as if they pertain to our future.
      
     Jeramiah was told that Jerusalem will lay desolate and the people will serve the king of Babylon for 70 years.
     EZEKIEL's' prediction of the temple being rebuilt?  And the Hebrew people being gathered together again in Jerusalem.
      At the time this prophesy was given the temple and the city of Jerusalem had been destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar (586 BC), and the people carried away to Babylon and surrounding areas.
      
      They were brought back and the city and temple were rebuilt. Prophecy fulfilled. 
      Regardless of this fact, Christians insist that before the time of the end, (in our future) the temple will have to be rebuilt. Because EZEKIEL said so.
      That is NOT what is written in the scriptures !!!!
   
      If it were not for the prophesy written in the book of Revelation and everyone's insistence upon combining them with those written and fulfilled in the  old testament,  these TWO distinctly different SETS of prophesy would have been seen more clearly.   
   
   If we were to take out all private interpretation from our understanding of prophesy,  we would see that they have never ceased in their process of being fulfilled.
   
     It is said that there was an Old Testament covenant and a New testament covenant.  It stands to reason that there would also be Old testament prophesy and New testament prophesy.
   
      To combine the two would be like combining the history books of England and that of the United states. 
      Yes They do have common elements, but you can not make one book out of the two unless you keep them separate in your understanding.
   
       When I look at O.T. prophesy I see them as; 1,2,3,4, etc as having been fulfilled. 
      And 1,2,3 etc. fulfillment of the New Testament prophesy.  with ONLY a couple of these prophesy unfulfilled. 
      So as for me ...  The obvious past fulfillment of these prophesy validates the rest of scripture.

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6. 79

   iantoPFposted 13 years ago

   It's a tradition that Revelations was written by the same author as the Gospel. The Catholic version of the Bible titles this book "The Apocalypse of St John the Apostle" However the style of writing makes it very unlikely that they were written by the same author.
   The book, after the letters to the seven churches, is heavy with references to Hebrew and Babylonian mythology. The symbology refers to the time the book was written not to a time thousands of years in the future. The persecutions under Nero were short lived and confined to Rome. The persecutions of Demetian were far more widespread and the references to the beast and the "Anti-Christ" are obvious references to Demetian.
   Basically, what Revelations is saying to the Christian communities of Asia Minor is "Hang in there, it's going to end soon, they will get their come-uppance and we will be rewarded."

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7. 57

   Jeramiposted 13 years ago

   @ iantoPF  Good to see Ya again.
   
      I see the first five seals as having all been opened at the time of the crucifixion. 
      Just the fact that a blood covered sacrificial lamb wasn't there one minute and the next minute it was. I eel that the symbolic of this has been ignored.
      And everything that the four horsemen are said to represent did fall upon that Hebrew Nation as confirmed in the writings of Josephus.   
       And concerning the fourth kingdom as described in Daniel, having ten horns and after these another rises replacing three?
   
      Titus was the tenth king of the fourth beast.  Titus was a Prince that destroyed Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD.
   
      Titus became the tenth emperor just a few weeks before Vesuvius erupted, which I believe is symbolized when the sixth seal is opened.
   
      And then there were three other kings after the first ten, and then Hadrian rose to power replacing three.
   
      I think it to be important that only 14 emperors of the Roman Empire had dominion over Israel; As described in Daniel.
      I also believe that the  Time, times and an half as described in Daniel 12:7 began when Hadrian carried away the inhabitants of Jerusalem in 135 AD.
   
      This would also correspond to Rev 11; and Rev 12, and Luke 21:24,
      And we must not forget that Jesus said that ....
     "This generation shall not pass away til all these things be fulfilled".
   
      I also believe that Rev. 10  ..John eating the little book and being told that he is to prophesy again before many peoples, nations tongues and kings ...  Is telling John of his impending release from prison.
      That prison was closed, prisoners released and John did return to preach in front of many people.

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8. 79

   iantoPFposted 13 years ago

   Hello Jerami; I can only handle short spurts into the forums, I enjoy debate but name calling and general foolishnes, well I'd rather meet in a pub and take the crap outside. You, my friend, are one of the few I do enjoy debating with.
   I do not share your view of Revelations or indeed of the Bible itself as an inspired or prophetic work. That said, there are some interesting coincidences in the book of revelations.For example; The day of judgement is at Revelations 20:12 and Revelations 8:10-11 tells of a great star that turned the water poisonous. The star is named "Wormwood" The Russian word for Wormwood is "Chernobyl"
   Those are just coincidence though. Revelations itself, as I mentioned is pure symbolism. Mostly Babylonian at that. I'm inclined to believe that the author was trying to convey a message to the Christians in a way that would be meaningful to Christians and Jews but unintelligible to the oppressors.
   The other explanation is that he was eating funny mushrooms.

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      Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Hello back atcha  Mr. iantoPF   
      I have always enjoyed our exchanges.  I apreciate your inteligence and attitude.
      I started to write an reply concerning Wormwood.
      
        It was getting too long for a post. 
         Will hub it and send it to ya.

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9. 79

   earnestshubposted 13 years ago

   

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      Jeff Berndtposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      And monkeys do too, if they've got a god?

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10. 79

    earnestshubposted 13 years ago

    Gods are children's blankets that get carried over into adulthood.
    --James Randi

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11. 69

    IntimatEvolutionposted 13 years ago

    Do you mean some of the events that are predicted by Daniel have to happen first; like Israel signing a treaty that involves dividing up Jerusalem into four parts?  Time line events like that or what? 
    
    I just want to make sure I'm following what you're saying there.

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    1. 57

       Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       "like Israel signing a treaty ...."
       
         As far as I can tell, Daniel doesn't mention Israel signing a treaty ! That is just another far fetched interpretation.

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          IntimatEvolutionposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          I never was able to find that either!!!  Thank You! 
          
          I heard that one about Jerusalem today.  However, it wasn't my first time hearing that, however, I can't find that kind of speech in the Book of Daniel.  I'm only capable of reading the story, and cannot read "into" the wording.  However, a man from Oxford University today on television said that Israel and Jerusalem would be divided into four parts, and Israel has to sign this treaty into event first- before we can start counting the seven years leading upto the Apocalypse. Then he said, as foretold in the Book of Daniel.
          
          So naturally I picked up my eighth grade graduation Catholic bible from 1984, and skimmed over Daniel- Again!, to come up emptied for the umpteenth time.
          
          Still though, was that reference type the sort of things you might be talking about when speaking of a time line?  Stuff that is suppose to happen before the end of the world is suppose to take place....?

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             Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this

             It is my opinion that the 62 weeks  and then they are going to kill the Messiah; is the key that unlocks understanding of all o the prophecy.
             
                In 538 (Daniel 1:1)  Gabriel told Daniel that the commandment has come forth. (9:23)
                568 of our years passes before they kill the messiah.
             
               568 years = 62 weeks. Approx!
             
               I believe that when this equation is applied to prophesy ; the prophesy become a "connect the dots" kind of thing.

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             dutchman1951posted 13 years agoin reply to this

             Here is a Cronological Order Outline of the Book that I found, it may help here. There is no interpretation of it, just to put it in order of progression to make sense of it; if you will allow
             
             The following outline does not attempt to interpret Revelation, but presents the details of the book in the manner, and in the order, that they appear. Some words (e.g. "locusts") are placed in quotes to indicate that their description in the text does not match our normal conception of them. Each of the seven churches is listed with the opening words of the message to that church.
             
             
             An 1880 Baxter process colour plate illustrating Revelation 22:17 by Joseph Martin Kronheim.Introduction
             
             John identifies himself, his addressees, and the divine source of his visions. (1:1-3)
             
             Messages to the Seven Asian Churches
             
             Description of the "Son of Man" as John sees him in his vision. (1:4-20)
             
             Ephesus: "I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil." (2:1-7)
             
             Smyrna: "I know your works, tribulation, and poverty – but you are rich." (2:8-11)
             
             Pergamon: "I know your works, and where you live, where Satan's throne is." (2:12-17)
             
             Thyatira: "I know your works, love, service, faith, and your patience." (2:18-29)
             
             Sardis: "I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead." (3:1-6)
             
             Philadelphia: "I know your works. I have set before you an open door, and no one can shut it." (3:7-13)
             
             Laodicea: "I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot... Because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew you out of my mouth." (3:14-22)
             
             The Throne of God
             John comes before the throne of God. (4:1-3)
             
             John sees twenty-four elders and four "living creatures" praising God. (4:4-11)
             
             Only the "Lamb" is found worthy to take the judgment scroll from God and break the seals. (5:1-7)
             
             The creatures in heaven give praise. (5:8-14)
             
             The Lamb Breaks the Seals
             
             First Seal: One who is both a king and a conqueror rides forth on a white horse. (6:1-2)
             
             Second Seal: A rider on a red horse brings war. (6:3-4)
             
             Third Seal: A rider on a black horse brings famine. (6:5-6)
             
             Fourth Seal: A rider on a pale horse brings death. (6:7-8)
             
             Fifth Seal: The souls of the martyrs "under the altar" cry out for vengeance. (6:9-11)
             
             Sixth Seal: There are earthquakes and natural disasters. (6:12-17)
             144,000 of "all the tribes of Israel" are "sealed." (7:1-8)
             
             A vast multitude worship God after coming out of the Great Tribulation. (7:9-17)
             
             Seventh Seal: The breaking of the seventh seal begins another series: the seven trumpets. (8:1-5)
             
             
             The Angels Sound the Trumpets
             First Trumpet: Hail and fire destroy a third of the trees and grass. (8:6-7)
             
             Second Trumpet: A third of the oceans are destroyed. (8:8-9)
             
             Third Trumpet: A third of the rivers and springs are poisoned. (8:10-11)
             
             Fourth Trumpet: A third of the sky is darkened. (8:12-13)
             
             Fifth Trumpet: A plague of "locusts" terrorize the Earth for five months. (9:1-12)
             
             Sixth Trumpet: An army of 200 million kills a third of Earth's population. (9:13-21)
             
             John eats a little book which is sweet in his mouth, but bitter in his stomach. (10:1-11)
             
             Two witnesses prophesy for 3½ years, are killed, and come back to life. (11:1-14)
             
             Seventh Trumpet: The ark of the covenant appears in the heavenly temple. (11:15-19)
             
             John sees a woman clothed with the sun, the moon, and the stars. (12:1-6)
             Satan is cast down to the Earth. (12:7-12)
             
             The dragon persecutes the people of God. (12:13-17)
             
             The beast from the sea makes war with the people of God. (13:1-10)
             
             The beast from the land forces people to worship the beast from the sea. (13:11-18)
             
             John sees 144,000, "having his Father's name written on their
             foreheads," with the Lamb on Mount Zion. (14:1-5)
             
             Three angels proclaim judgment. (14:6-13)
             
             The angels reap the harvest. (14:14-20)
             
             The Angels Pour Out Their Bowls on the Earth
             
             Seven angels are given golden bowls containing of the wrath of God. (15:1-8)
             
             First Bowl: A "foul and loathsome sore" afflicts the followers of the beast. (16:1-2)
             
             Second Bowl: The sea turns to blood and everything within it dies. (16:3)
             
             Third Bowl: All fresh water turns to blood. (16:4-7)
             
             Fourth Bowl: The sun scorches the Earth with intense heat. (16:8-9)
             
             Fifth Bowl: There is total darkness and great pain in Antichrist's kingdom. (16:10-11)
             
             Sixth Bowl: Preparations are made for the final battle between the forces of good and evil. (16:12-16)
             
             Seventh Bowl: A great earthquake: "every island fled away and the mountains were not found." (16:17-21)
             
             
             Babylon the Great
             The great harlot who sits on many waters: Babylon the Great. (17:1-18)
             
             Babylon is destroyed. (18:1-8)
             
             The people of the earth mourn Babylon's destruction. (18:9-19)
             
             The permanence of Babylon's destruction. (18:20-24)
             
             The Marriage Supper of the Lamb
             
             A great multitude praises God. (19:1-6)
             
             The marriage supper of the Lamb. (19:7-10)
             
             
             The Millennium
             The beast and the false prophet are cast into the lake of fire. (19:11-21)
             
             Satan is imprisoned in the bottomless pit for a thousand years. (20:1-3)
             
             The resurrected martyrs "and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image" live and reign with Christ for a thousand years. (20:4-6)
             
             
             After the Thousand Years
             Satan is released and makes war against the people of God, but is defeated. (20:7-9)
             
             Satan is cast into the lake of fire. (20:10)
             
             The Last Judgment: the wicked, along with death and Hades, are cast into the lake of fire. (20:11-15)
             
             
             The New Heaven and Earth
             A new heaven and new earth replace the old. There is no more suffering or death. (21:1-8)
             
             God comes to dwell with humanity in the New Jerusalem. (21:2-8)
             
             Description of the New Jerusalem. (21:9-27)
             
             The river and tree of life appear for the healing of the nations. The curse is ended. (22:1-5)
             
             
             Conclusion
             Christ's reassurance that his coming is imminent. Final admonitions. (22:6-21)
             
             hope this helps some

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                IntimatEvolutionposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                Oh yeah!  This is great.  I copied and pasted it in Word to go over later.
                ____________________________________
                John sees 144,000, "having his Father's name written on their
                foreheads," with the Lamb on Mount Zion. (14:1-5)
                
                Now isn't it this passage in which the Jehovah Witnesses believe by; that only 144,000 souls will be allowed to go to heaven.  Which are usually the deacons only of their church, because isn't it only the deacons who are allowed to take communion?  I hope this isn't true, for Michael Jackson's sake.  Wasn't he a Jehovah Witness?  I think he was.

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                   Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                   It is written that these 144,000 will be redeemed from among man.  They do not taste of death, and they are 12000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel.   Children of Daniels people.
                   
                      Daniel 12:1
                   
                      Which indicates to me that this happened when that Hebrew Nation (of old) came to its end of days in 135-138 AD.
                      As it is written.

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                      IntimatEvolutionposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                      I wonder then why it is only the Witnesses who get to go to heaven then.  I think the Jehovah witnesses are a joke.

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                         Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                         I do think that they are misguided.
                            After many years of studying the prophesy making every attempt to not interpret any passage ... I have come to the conclusion that all of the christian that I am aware of, depends upon interpretations more than they do the written words themselves.
                         
                            I'm  bad ... And everyone says that I'm crazy.  I might be?

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                   dutchman1951posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                   I think thats correct as rumors of Jehovas Whittness beliefs,  but I think it meant something else;
                   
                   I believe it refers to Gods' original promise to Those in Anchient Israel, (That Old Testimate promise to the Original 12 of each tribe) at least I was taught that.
                   
                   That they would not taste of pain nor death and would be lifted up to God.

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    Jeramiposted 13 years ago

    The ninth chapter is all about 70 weeks that "That" Hebrew peoples were given to quit sinning, make restitution's and compensation or those sins AND anoint the Most Holy.
    
      It says that after 62 weeks "They?" are going to kill the Messiah.
    
      And after 69 weeks unto  Messiah the Prince.
    
      a few verses later it says that  The Prince that shall come shall  confirm  "THE"  covenant  with many  (not  all just some)
    for ONE week.
    
       If ya notice after 69 weeks unto the messiah ...  there is but ONE week left of the 70 that was given for the Hebrew peoples to remain in Gods graces.  So after 69 weeks ... there is only one week left remaining of the Old covenant.  The Messiah confirms that covenant for ONE more week.
    
    
        You can call that  JUST  "My" interpretation ?  But that is what it seems to be saying pretty clearly. At least in my opinion.
    
       62 weeks took approx 568 years to be completed.
    
      It doesn't make sense to me for the last 7 weeks unto the Messiah the Prince to be 1940 years and haven't been completed yet ???

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       IntimatEvolutionposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       I'm confused.........
       
       Where do you find these weeks listed?

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          Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          (9:24)  seventy weeks
          
          (9:25)  69 weeks until the Messiah the Prince
          
          (9:26)  62 weeks and they will kill the Messiah
          
          (9:27) And he shall conirm THE  covenant.

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             IntimatEvolutionposted 13 years agoin reply to this

             Oh thank you........, let me go open to those pages.  Give me a second or two.

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    Jeramiposted 13 years ago

    Regardless as to how you want to understand the end time prophesy   THIS   chapter must be reconciled first.
    
       Otherwise as I said earlier we are shooting in the dark.
    
      My opinion anyway.

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       IntimatEvolutionposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       So do you think of these events in Daniel as things yet to come?  See I always considered these events to done and over with.

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          Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          And you would be correct IE.

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          Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Exactly;  unless ya want to change the meaning of the written message cause ya don't like what it says!  Then all we gota do in to interpret it until we like what it says.
          
             BUT  if we do that we will have to keep interpreting everything else in order to attempt to make sense of it. 
          
          
            But then It doesn't!
          
            The entire book of Daniel talk about prophesy concerning those people. The first four kingdoms to have dominion over  "That" Hebrew Nation
          
            Until ya get to the middle of the last chapter, and then it speaks of time frames extending past the last days for that Hebrew nation.
          
             Again ...   that is just my (strong and firm) opinion.

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    Jeramiposted 13 years ago

    @dutchman1951
    
       How do you explain that one minute there was no one in heaven worthy to take the book and the next There he was
       And as soon as he got there he began opening the book with the seven seals.
    
        And the silence in heaven for 1/2 an hour before the trumpets are handed out.
    
      Does this not depict a separation in time between the last seal being opened and the trumpets being handed out?

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       dutchman1951posted 13 years agoin reply to this

       I can not explain it, I was thinking there was no gap, just litteral lisence, using a pause for affect, the last seal opening....suspense  but....
       
       am looking at it, answer in a min.
       
       your making me dig here, and this is good..
       
       ok...
       Our verse says that there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. In figurative prophecy a "day" is like a literal year . So you could ask, How long then is a prophetic half hour? 1 week aproximately according to some, but thats hard to believe for me.
       
       About the space of half an hour - to me John did not profess to designate the time exactly. It was a brief period - yet a period which in such circumstances would appear to be long - about half an hour. The actual Hebrew  word used here - ἡμιώριον hēmiōrion -  and it does not occur elsewhere in the New Testament.
       
       It is correctly translated as "half an hour"; and, since the day was divided into twelve parts from the rising to the setting of the sun, the time would be like we have today?????
       
       I can not explain it at all.

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          Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Good morning
          
            I have never hear anyone else believing that this 1/2 hour is 10 days. I think that also.
          
            But the point that I was making is that all seven of the  seals were opened.  ...   And then    ....  after  a  half  hour   ....(some  period of time) 
          
          
          
            after a separation of time ....    then the trumpets begin to be sounded.   
          
            For me,   this indicates that the  three groups of Judgments occurs in different time periods,

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             dutchman1951posted 13 years agoin reply to this

             @ Jerami, Good Morning
             
             Psalms 82:6
             
             I think I hit something in my reading last night, but this is unfounded, just un-documented study.
             
             Parr posted some Bible lines in another post which got me searching for truth, and in my answer to his post, I came across this:
             
             I was looking at the Torah and I think (the Pause of 1/2 hour)  is related to when God told Israel that they, by taking (accepting) the law were Gods also.
             
             at Sinai- Israel received God's word of Torah ("all that the Lord hath spoken") and became holy and sinless ("...we will do and obey"), for this reason you (Israel) are called gods.
             
             Although it is not explicitly stated, that statement when translated correctly, implies that holiness leads to deathlessness, because Holiness is a godlike quality, for which reason- " Israel is called God."
             
             it is not intended privelage for the un-circumcised, (the rest of us!) as  Israel is under the Law, we are under the Grace.
             
             It does not mean we are Gods at all, it means they were, not us.
             
             But...He also explains to them that if there is any "new" sin, then they face death.....
             
             Yet with Israel's new sin comes death, the typical fate of sinful mortals ("ye shall die like men"). is the translation there.
             
             I think he paused to allow His chosen Israel-(those with "new" Sin)  to think about it, because the 7th seal, the Book of Life, was about to be opened, and they (by silence) would know.
             
             I think he was holding off to let them know his judgment upon them- they caused to happen. And they are now to be judged with the rest and not lifted up with the original who kept the Law.
             
             He is distinguishing between them.
             
             It  is speculation from looking at the words, and the translations, but the best I have right now????
             
             I have always been told, do not forget the Torah when looking at Revelation, so it comes from that.
             
             I am no authority here, it is just my idea. 

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    paarsurreyposted 13 years ago

    Are we making a mistake by taking Revelations too literal?
    
    Nobody is sure here who wrote the Revelations; not even sure who this John was.
    
    They don't have the original text of the "Revelations"; in translations the meanings become obscure and abstract.

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       IntimatEvolutionposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       They have a copy of Revelations, which was found amongst the dead sea scrolls.  It's Greek translation that was written down 300 hundred years later and currently occupies the last spot in the bible, was compared to the Coptic text's fragments that were found in the caves.  After comparing the two, it was said to have been translated from a oral tradition to Greek, and then written with amazing accuracy. 
       
       So to say they don't have an original copy isn't all that correct.  They have fragments of the original copy.

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          paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Translations are no substitute of the original;they don't have anything in origianl in Aramaic or Hebrew; and nothing written by Jesus or dictated by Him.
          
          The meaning are therefore lost in the Translations and that makes Bible a lost and dead book.
          
          Sorry; I have to express freely what i believe sincerely; one could differ with me, no compulsion.

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             Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this

             The meanings are all right there! In scripture
                It is 1900 years of mankind brainwashing himself that keeps the true meanings hidden.
             
                The Islamic faith is the same way.
                Missing a couple o details .....  All is left up to conjecture.
             
                But thank god  he puts his laws in the hearts of his children. (ten commandments)  As long as we keep the laws...  understanding of the rest is not compulsory.
             
               And we can be one of his children and not belong to a denomination.
               If we are in one of these denominations ??? ... It is not for our benefit ....   but for what we can contribute.

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                IntimatEvolutionposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                And, what about the other 600+ laws of Moses, which were handed down by God?  What of them?  I don't even know all of them.  And I'm a very educated woman on religious history, and religious theory.  How do we accomplish all of God's needs and wishes, when most of us don't even know what that is?  Read the bible?  Okay, which one?  The Canon has different books from the King James version, and the bible doesn't even contain all the books that of the Torah.  Not even close to it. And the Qur'an- well I'm sure you get my point.
                
                Do we take this all too literal, or not literal enough?

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                   Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                   I get your point.  I haven't read them all either.
                   
                      I do Understood about many of the "do not eat buzzards and other scavengers or preditory birds, catfish etc"
                     These had to do with consuming all kinds of bacteria.
                    
                      Pork ?  that is easy, parasites. 
                     No reerigeration back then.
                     They didn't necessarily cook their meat well done.
                   
                     Many others were establishing a judiciary system.
                   
                     And later one was added that we were not to break the laws of the land in which we found ourselves... unless they were commanding that we break Gods laws.
                   
                      
                      Not a very good answer.   Just my thoughts about a few of the many laws.

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                   dutchman1951posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                   The Hebrew Bible I would say, take the full written Hebrew through a Translator program page by page and possibly that would give the entire tablets, because you are correct Moses spent 40 days and nights on that mountain...
                   
                   so, how do we know...I have to agree

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                   Twenty One Daysposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                   613 to be precise.
                   Can we keep them all? Of course not.
                   This is why the Law is futile. So written Law + The Correspondences is futile. It is now our place to completely dismiss human methodology, ideology, self interpreted systems of belief or disbelief and give complete access and power to the Spirit.
                   
                   The human mind is the keeper of Law...
                   The human body --if subject to the law-- a reflection of it, death.
                   The human spirit --if subject to the Law-- is still physical and possibly spiritual death.
                   The human spirit submitted to The Spirit is life.

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    Jeff Berndtposted 13 years ago

    Yes. Yes, we are.

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    Jeramiposted 13 years ago

    @  dutchman1951
    
      It is my understanding that All of the visions described in the book of Daniel except the last half of chapter 12 were concerning the four kingdoms that received dominion over that Hebrew Nation that existed at that time.
      The dream that Nebuchadnezzar had (603 BC) showed Babylon as being the first if these four kingdoms.
    
      Chapter 7 (562 to 559 BC?) identifies the second and third kingdoms as being Persia and Grease. This vision states that when Greece breaks up into our smaller kingdoms. And out of one of these smaller kingdoms the "Little Horn will rise to power.
    
       Out of one of these smaller kingdoms the Roman Empire rose up to be given dominion over the whole land. 
    
    Chapter 8  (A year later) Again this vision describes the first four kingdoms.  And it mentions the Little Horn that rises up replacing three kings after the first ten kings.
    
       Chapter 11 also speaks of Persia's  rise to power and finishes with the death of the Little Horn. The 14Th king of the fourth kingdom to have dominion over Israel.
     
       When he dies 11:45  At that time shall Michael stand up for the Children of Daniels people.  At that time thy people shall be delivered  and   ...
       some of those in the grave. ????
    
       This seems to me to be plainly saying that the "Rapture" was going to be at the time that the 14 Emperor dies.
      Which is about the same time that that Hebrew Nation ceased to exist.   HMmmm
    
      I believe, This would be when the seventh seal was opened.
    
      And I also believe that the 1/2 hour of silence represents a period of time until the trumpet judgments are sounded against the Roman Empire.  (sixth century and half of the seventh)
    
         At least that is the way that I see it as being written.

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       dutchman1951posted 13 years agoin reply to this

       tying it to historic record, yes, that makes more sense....hmmm...

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          Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Rev 16:2    "... ; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore on men which had the mark of the beast.."
          
              I can not imagine a sore more noisome and grievous than the bubonic plague that spread, killing 1/2 to 2/3 of the population of Europe, north Africa and China.
          
             This timeline equation opens more questions than it at  answers, in the beginning.  BUT,  if we continue applying it,  those questions will also be answered.

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             IntimatEvolutionposted 13 years agoin reply to this

             The mark of the beast........., see it is verses like this one I think we take too literally.  It was a dream, right?  The book is a revelation of a dream, which a man named John had. I don't think this beast will have a mark.  I don't believe in the 666 theories.  Do you?

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                Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                I haven't paid a lot o attention to the 666 thingie ...
                
                  It is supposed to have to do with the Hebrew alphabet. Letters having a number assigned to it. A Seventh day Adventists pamplet that I was given once, explained how this corresponds to Catholicism but I've never paid much attention to that.
                
                  That 69 weeks unto Messiah the Prince  (just so happens to correspond with 94 AD when John received the revelation.)
                
                  But it is the 62 weeks until they kill the Messiah that gives us the equation that I truly believe unlocks understanding of prophesy. 
                
                   Call me crazy but I have checked this out frontwards and backwards and from side to side.  Everything fits.
                
                   Let me just ask this question!
                   Why does the preachers teach that prophetic time is diffrent from our time when it comes to these 62 weeks in Daniel but then after the 62 weeks; TIME  STOPS   ......
                62 weeks took 568 yeare to be fulfilled but then suddenly the next 7 weeks are out there in magic land someplace waiting to be fulfilled ???    It isn't !!!!!
                   And when that time comes a week is supposed to represent 7 years.
                
                   They got it all screwed up.
                
                   Prophetic time would have to be consistent or there wouldn't be any sense in having the prophesy.
                   The Church is totally screwed up when it comes to this matter.
                
                   The key is in Daniel for a reason !!!   But everyone ignores it !
                
                   The beast is given 42 Months to  "BLASPHEME" ... 
                42 months is approx 1650 years our time.
                   How many organizations have been around blaspheming for that long??

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    Onusonusposted 13 years ago

    As one who believes in continued revelation I like what Emmerson said at his Harvard divinity school address;
    
    “It is my duty to say to you that the need was never greater for new revelation than now.” “The doctrine of inspiration is lost. … Miracles, prophecy, the holy life, exist as ancient history only. … Men have come to speak of … revelation as somewhat long ago given and done, as if God were dead. It is the office of a true teacher, to show us that God is, not was; that He speaketh, not spake.”
    
    More important than the prophecy of the book of revelations, comes the gift of prophecy among us. In order for the average person or family to enjoy a relationship with God we have to rise above the standards of the world by practicing virtue and holiness continually. Simply through fasting, prayer, and partaking in a life which holds the spiritual matters above the temporal, we can see miracles and be administered to by angels. Our lifes become enriched as the gifts of the spirit are manifested to us through the power of God.

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       dutchman1951posted 13 years agoin reply to this

       sitting here pondering the words, nodding...thinking

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       Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       I agree with The entire post.
       ========
       Onusonus wrote .. I like what Emmerson said
           “It is my duty to say to you that the need was never greater for new revelation than now.”
          Men have come to speak of … revelation as somewhat long ago given and done, as if God were dead. It is the office of a true teacher, to show us that God is, not was; that He speaketh, not spake.”
       - - - - - - - - - -
       
          The prophesy  were given; they have continuously been in a state of fulfillment every sense they were spoken.
       
          When applying the equation; of a week = approx 9.13 to 9.16 of our years, to prophesy we will soon discover that they have all been fulfilled except for the two witnesses being killed, and the seventh trumpet being sounded and seventh vial being poured out.
       
          Those that think that the Temple in Jerusalem has to be built first, will be greatly surprised.
       
          It is much later (in prophesy) than people think.

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          Onusonusposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Thanks dude, I try to squeeze out a good one every once in a while.

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             Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this

             You turn out a lot of good ones. 
             
                This one in my opinion was probably the best.

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    paarsurreyposted 13 years ago

    The meaning of the Bible are lost in the Translations; there is no original text in Aramaic or Hebrew which Jesus, Mary and the disciples spoke.

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       Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       I don't think that the meanings are not lost in translations !!
       
          It is all the  "Interpretations" that are killing it.

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       IntimatEvolutionposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       Um....., that's not entirely true.
       
       http://www.v-a.com/bible/
       http://www.christusrex.org/www1/pater/JPN-aramaic.html

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