If God was taken away from the religious minds...

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   Rishy Richposted 13 years ago

   Most atheists & agnostics build up their own standards of ethics & morality. If they do something good they do it for the sake of the responsibility they feel towards humanity.
   
   On the contrary, theists usually develop a personality which expects rewards in return of their good deeds, especially in afterlife. These rewards or religious promises are sometimes so fascinating that they (believers) even conduct actions which are against human morale i.e. Suicide bombing, crusade, Sati Pratha (burning of widows in hinduism) etc.
   
   
   Now since theist morale is highly depended on the promises of the God element, dont u think that taking away God from their mind could cause major damage to the society? Can it lead to even greater chaos & conflict if we abolish their faith from God?
   
   Im not concluding anything. Its just a thought & would like to have ur point of views on it.

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      pisean282311posted 13 years agoin reply to this

      i think it would...religion did help in establishing moral code and concept of heaven or threat of hell has worked so far...i dont think doing away with god or rather religious concept of god would be good idea...

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         Rishy Richposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         What you are saying is quite true but then again there are people who are doing great deeds without having faith in God or religion. How do u explain their actions? If a part of society can perform good without God then why cant the rest?

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            pisean282311posted 13 years agoin reply to this

            well if one considers entire human race as single unit and himself/herself as part of that..i dont think one needs god to do good for human race...but humans are naturally self interested..if what you say is to be implemented, context has to change...for people doing good and not believing in god, they have had context with is not dependent on heaven , hell , pleasing god and such things..

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            sandra rinckposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            They can but they find it meaningless unless praise is given to god.  They say all glory is to god.  They say that people who do good things waste there time if they don't do it for god.
            
            Then you bump into trouble where the religious expect to be thanked and praised for their 'work' for the 'lord' thus giving praise to god through the people that 'invoke' god and do good things.
            
            The hypocrisy is that when someone not of their faith get's thanked for their good deed and they happily accept the kind exchange, the zealous then deem the person selfish for accepting credit for their good deed.  They call them selfish. 
            
            Sometimes I wonder if there is sort of mind misfire going on the minds of the zealous where they literally do not, cannot and will never understand their hypocrisy.

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               stoneyyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               For many believers 'God' is right next to 'water is wet.' 
               
               There is hefty misfire and extensive compartmentalization going on.  There's good reason for the God Cancer to be induced before a youngster is able to think.  There are no defenses against the drivel.  Such is by deliberate design and with malice aforethought.
               
               With the installation and constant reinforcement from birth its a wonder anyone manages to free them self from the slave chains.
               
               What's also 'installed' is a 'deflector screen' where reason never hits the 'shift registers' on the topic.
               
               Add in the absolute terror and things are even worse.  Terror has the tendency to disable the cerebral cortex.

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               hanging outposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               hmmm, impossible to decipher who or what you are talking about sandra.
               with words like: they used 5 times in the first paragraph. I don't know who they are, sorry. The religious, their work, the people who invoke god, hmmm don't know who they are either, not of their faith.. vague again sorry, their and zealous, their used again, they.. all in paragraph 3. the zealous in paragraph 4.
               
               can u be more specific? I would like to figure out who had this mind misfire you refer to

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                  sandra rinckposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Oh I apologize, I meant you.

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      dutchman1951posted 13 years agoin reply to this

      if the mind is religious, and God goes away, then there is a need to replace God with something else, and what that mind chooses to replace God with could be much worse for this world. Be careful what you ask for.
      
      I say just let it be, it is unproven for all of us and will be until death, and by then if it is even truth, it would be to late anyway!
      
      we are human and  fear of God keeps most in line, so be it. Humans need some guidance even if it is hard to take at times. It is still better than lawless actions.

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         Rishy Richposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         I understand your point but dont you think it will hamper & slow down our advancement in the longer run?

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            dutchman1951posted 13 years agoin reply to this

            yes rishy it would, i do agree

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         Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         What utter nonsense. No one actually believes - they just say they do in order to foist their hypocritical values on others. If fear of god kept "most" in line - we would have no criminal justice system because everyone would be good and we would not need one.
         
         How very desperate of you to use such a nonsensical argument, when the facts and history show quite the opposite of your claim.
         
         Your assertions are meaningless. I do not believe in god and do not break the law, but that is because I am morally superior to believers.
         
         Dear me.

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            dutchman1951posted 13 years agoin reply to this

            law not as in law for courts and criminals Mark, a totally different meaning, you are very off base here. Nothing to do with law of the land, has to do with Moses and the Torah, the first 5 books, not modern societal law.
            
            law as in Keeping God spirit, law as in instruction as to how, from God.  They were told to do it.  law as in Priest's or chosen keepers practice. 
            
            you are Atheist, you would not know of that Mark.
            
            It applies to Worship, as in the work one does, the ritual to keep God , because they were under the law then, not the grace, the death had not happened at that time, it was just fore told to them then.
            
            That’s why the death happened, because they could not keep the law, only a very few chosen even understood how to. The first 12 of each tribe.
            
            you look very ridiculous right now Mark, I am sorry to say that it’s not personal, it really is not.
            And your arguments are sensible for modern society, but that’s not what I am referring to.
            
            They would not know if they full filled it until death, and by then it did not matter, they were promised to be raised up anyway.
            
            I am referring to lawless action in the worship, not in life. The fear of making a mistake while doing that.  STUDY

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            andycoolposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            You're are in no way morally superior... actually inferior. Superiority complex is a form of inferiority complex (that's according to researches on psychiatric disorders) which is complete curable. Visit a psychiatrist and take a break from the computer screen. Search the forum where I've posted a question about role of religion... post your analysis why you don't believe in God! I am challenging you Mark Knowles you can't prove non-existence of God until you follow the route of fanaticism. Non-believers can be fanatic too, if you're not sure try to find out the true meaning of "fanaticism".

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               Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               You are challenging me to what? Prove a negative? Of course I cannot prove a negative. Am I allowed to use common sense instead?
               
               Guess you missed the irony also. Oh well.

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            hanging outposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            how interesting nicodemus.

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         Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Yet, the prisons are full of Christians. So much for gods "guidance"

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            stoneyyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Exactly. 
            
            Message-ID: <c6f5ba32.0204121158.78c096f2@posting.google.com>
            
            We [atheists-since only Christians have a 'moral compass'] may have lost our moral compass but we still have our chaste sextant, our modest flashlight, our ethical pen knife, and our
            virtuous canteen. --  jwkinraleigh

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            libby101aposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Beelzedad... the prisons are full of christians because they seem to find Jesus once they get to prison! They were NOT chrisitans while they committed the crime! Most of them do not remain christians when they are freed! They return to the world from which they came and denounce christianity!
            
            Peace!!!

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               Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               Absolutely correct.
               
                   By pretending to have been converted to
               god many of them get paroled sooner.
               
               
                   I've meet a few that were sincere and kept their faith.
               
                   You will find very few Christians GOING to Jail.

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                  hanging outposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  How simple they are to be swayed by every little bit of information that seems to support their ludicrous claimsthat  they make in their zealousness to disprove what they cannot rationalize.. oh dear i sound vaguely like someone.

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                     sandra rinckposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     ...a Christian?

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               Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               Once again, you continue to fabricate stories to support your beliefs without actually finding out the facts.

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         stoneyyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         dutchman1951posted;
         "if the mind is religious, and God goes away, then there is a need to replace God with something else, and what that mind chooses to replace God with could be much worse for this world. Be careful what you ask for."
         
         Only for the relative few who've indicated they'd run amok if they weren't restrained by the God leash.
         
         dutchman1951posted;
         "I say just let it be, it is unproven for all of us and will be until death, and by then if it is even truth, it would be to late anyway!?
         
         Error.  God self-destructs under its own absurdities, broken logic and begged questions.  It provides zero answers.
         
         dutchman1951posted;
         "we are human and  fear of God keeps most in line, so be it. Humans need some guidance even if it is hard to take at times. It is still better than lawless actions."
         
         Terminal rubbish.  I feel sorry for those who require terror to be somewhat civilized.  Further, deity leads to lawless actions as many theists from the Son of Sam on, and before, have demonstrated.

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         dutchman1951posted 13 years agoin reply to this

         to clarify this
         
         I should say here to late for the Gentiles anyway, as we are under the Grace. If god left us it would be the same, but not for those of a God mind, the original chosen. it would be a disaster. They were promised. we were not.
         
         God left when he died, thus we go by faith anyway, he was taken away.
         it has already been proven what we will do, we are doing that now!

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            stoneyyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Of course.  All are mere actors in a pointless play hitting their marks and spouting their lines as scripted eons ago when God furiously ejaculated the universe into being.

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      Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Removing gods from the minds of theists will only force them to develop morals and ethics instead of living their lives based on a reward/punishment system.

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         Rishy Richposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         In the longer run, may be it will but what about those Jihadis, crusaders, talibans or people like Terry jones or laden? Do you think they will develop morals & ethics all of a sudden in their life time?

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            Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Maybe they will or not, but they won't be able to indoctrinate their children, who will then have the capacity to develop morals.

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               Rishy Richposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               Good point.

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                  hanging outposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  except that parents are role models and often adults are surprised at what children both observe and learn by observance. If the adult is not good, there is a slim chance the child will be.
                  People develop morals depending on their situation in life. If you were all of a sudden penniless in a stock market crash and the next day unemployed. What would you do if a week went by and you found a wallet with money in it.
                  don't bother to tell me different.. you would keep the money.
                  The christian would not, i am talking christian here, not some non jesus cult...
                  people don't develop the morals of a good person, if being of a superior moral was the goal then to conform to Gods morals would be okie dokie.. but its not.. because the bar is impossibly high.

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         dutchman1951posted 13 years agoin reply to this

         they do that now Beelz, and they also carry faith to. nothing wrong with that.

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         stoneyyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         When one isn't used to thinking and considering things such is very dicey.
         
         All too many have stated if their 'God Leash' was removed they'd be out running amok.

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            Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Good point.

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      stoneyyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      You make good points concerning thinking and constructing a moral code vs., having a stone and bronze age contradictory code thrust upon them.
      
      The danger of God vanishing or God actually vanishing would, I suspect, only affect relatively few Xians.  It would affect those who've indicated God and the threats of Hell are the only thing keeping them from running amok.  These are those folks who must be under constant observation as they can't be trusted 'off leash.'

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         dutchman1951posted 13 years agoin reply to this

         correct Stoney, a few still believe they have to be under the law, every worship step a certain way, keep repenting etc, etc...it is self punishment. If you take God from them they will make it up worse, and heaven help us.
         
         so yes it will change things a lot. The rest of us function well. some by faith, some by science, but all of us make it work. A few will not however, so let it be, it could be much worse, if they re-event any more than already has been , it will really get nutty....look at Al Kida, and Ben laudin, we do not need that on the far right here in the US.
         
         the leash (or a choke collar) is good in those cases. but not for all people. and in the end they are not chosen and will pass like everyone else.
         
         its what I meant in all those words above, i just did not say it right.

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            stoneyyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            There are plenty of Christian Taliban in the USA, I'm sorry to say.
            
            Sharon Angle, Christine O'Donnel, Sarah Palin, Newt Gingrich, Sam Brownback, Michelle Bachmann, a couple of Supreme Court Justices, and many in Congress, and myriad other government positions. 
            
            They're rampant in the US military in command positions and the USAF Academy has been "Jesus Central" for about ten years now.
            
            Alabama's a great one for this.  I call Alabama Talibama based on their highest court ruling that females aren't owed orgasms.  In Talibama, a place selling vibrators is subject to a Ten Thousand Dollar fine and up to six months in prison at hard labour.
            
            It doesn't matter many women have medical problems preventing them from reaching orgasm without artificial stimulus.

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      Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      maybe if they cleared their brains of religion they would have more room for thinking
      If you look back in history - there were numerous wars/fighting/torture because of religion & politics

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         stoneyyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Thinking is hefty work.  Some are too lazy.  Others haven't the capability.  There's also the fear that one [gasp] might make a mistake.
         
         Pope JPII has the death of millions on his hands and myriad orphans with his edict against the use of condoms and the passel of lies about condoms.
         
         He's just another psychopath in the Saints List-if they do so designate him.

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      Don Wposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Interesting question. I don't think so, because I don't think god-belief can be removed from society. As long as people are capable of conceptualising something which is not in front of them (imagining), and forming a strong beleif in a positive outcome despite material conditions (hoping) then there will be god-belief.
      
      That doesn't say anything about whether god belief is true or false of course, it simply suggests that imagination and hope are two of the mechanisms through which god-belief functions. To remove god-belief from a persons mind then, you would need to remove a persons capacity to imagine and to hope. I don't think that's possibble without also affecting the other core functions of a persons psyche.

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         paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         I appreciate your wisdom friend Don W

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         stoneyyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         No, such cannot be removed from society.  Heck, even the Communists {Russia} inserted the state into the god slot.  Stalin went to Seminary where he learned how often the Church induced and or fomented and assisted actions against the state.
         
         Even so, churches remained open and the state paid the clergy's for their duties.
         
         I disagree about removing a persons capacity to imagine and hope.  Theists certainly don't have a problem with imagining or hope on subjects other than their religion.

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   paarsurreyposted 13 years ago

   The truthful religion has many aspects of doing a good deed and all these could be combined at the same time like three dimensions.
   
   [76:9] And they feed, for love of Him, the poor, the orphan, and the prisoner,
   [76:10] Saying, ‘We feed you for Allah’s pleasure only. We desire no reward nor thanks from you.
   
   http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/sh … mp;verse=0
   
   It could be love of the Creator-God Allah YHWH or love of the poor and love of the virtue itself without having any tangible expectation of a reward.
   
   They are all complementary and not exclusive of one another.

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      Rishy Richposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Will u still LOVE the Creator-God Allah YHWH if he SAYs that -
      
      "Paar, No matter how much you PRAY or how much you serve the poor, I will burn your arse in HELL for Eternity"...Will you still love him?
      
      (No hypocrisy please!)

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         paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         That is your supposition only; the Creator-God Allah YHWH does not say it.

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            Rishy Richposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            You didnt answer.

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               Rishy Richposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               You still didnt answer. I guess you have realized that your love for the Creator-God Allah YHWH is CONDITIONAL. As long as he loves you & promises to take care of you, you will love him. The moment he stops doing that, you will find no difference between him & satan.

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                  stoneyyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  His silence spoke loud and clear.  With no future reward for helping others he won't do a damn thing for others.  I find that quite sad.  :\
                  
                  By no means is he alone in this outlook.  I see so many Christians who use and abuse their 'Saviour.'
                  
                  If these Christians loved 'Jesus' they'd be breaking their backs to make his load lighter not piling more on via front loader!

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                     Rishy Richposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     True but sad.

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                  hanging outposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  this is a ridiculous scenario.. will you stil love your parent if they give all your inheritance money to the dog pound? Will  you still love your daughter if she shoots dead 12 school girls during gym class and laughs in your face when you tell her she did wrong?
                  
                  I can make up so many more scenarios. To ask us if we love God even though we will go to hell is completely ridiculous, when we love God for being who god is and until he proves himself to be different our love for God will continue.
                  I remember when i first started living for God. I was thinking how grateful i was not to be going to hell. Then God said, what if there is no hell? That forced me to reevaluate my situation and i found out it did not matter about hell.

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   exorterposted 13 years ago

   take a look at what has and is happening in the U.S.A. since we have pushed God out of our schools, and every where else,nonbelievers can push God out of,
   I am the person I am because of God, not because of what I get from Him

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      stoneyyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      The US wasn't founded on Christianity.  It is not a Christian Nation.  Christians were, and are, well aware of this but don't care about all their law breaking.
      
      The Founding Fathers were well aware of what happens when Church and State are joined at the hip.
      
      Unlike you, many Christians do care about the Constitution.  From my readings Madeline O'Hare was third or fourth complainant  after a couple of Christians.
      
      Several years ago in Santa Fe, two Christian families filed suit because prayer was being said before football games.  Their names were not released to protect them from their 'loving brethens' violences.

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         exorterposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         They can call themselves christians all they want to, just because someone calls themselves something that does not make it true.
         you can have all the training to become something, but until you put that training to use, it does not help at all.
         you can go to church for 50 years, but if you do not apply what you learn into your life, then you are not Christian.
         it takes more than going to church

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            AMBASSADOR BUTLERposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            It all boils down to love peace free. I am the person of love peace free because of GOD and not of my own power. GOD drawn me to himself and revealed and enabled me to be love peace free and the messenger of love peace free. I was given this by GOD and it is a great responsibility that I have accepted to be and share with the knowledge that GOD will judge me of what I have done with this gift and how I applied it in my own life and share it with humanity. I am greatly humbled by it and know the consequences of how I apply love peace free in my life and how I shared it with humanity. To whom much is given then much is expected of them. Yes GOD shown me the other side of death on August 1, 1982 A.D.

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            stoneyyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            exorter posted
            "They can call themselves christians all they want to, just because someone calls themselves something that does not make it true."
            
            All Christians are self-identified.  Just as you point at others claiming they're not a *true* Christian, others are saying the same thing about you.
            
            'Jesus' flat indicates the signs of a Christian.  His criteria indicates there isn't a Xian on the planet, but then what would 'Jesus' know about it.
            
            Mark 16 (King James Version)
            17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
            
            18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
            
            Then there's the following:
            Mark 11 (King James Version)
            22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.
            
            23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.
            
            24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
            
            and
            Matthew 17:19-20 (King James Version)
            
            19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
            
            20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
            
            Luke 17 (King James Version)
            6 And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.
            
            Thrown any mountains into the sea, lately?
            
            exorter posted
            "you can have all the training to become something, but until you put that training to use, it does not help at all.
            you can go to church for 50 years, but if you do not apply what you learn into your life, then you are not Christian.
            it takes more than going to church"
            
            Other Christians would say otherwise and that you are not a Christian.
            
            It takes a lot of the Sin of Pride to take God's place as the determiner of who is a christian and who is not.  Awww shucks, thats just Christian brand humility!
            
            So which one of you currently have his/her hand up God's arse making his mouth move?

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               hanging outposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               quote: Thrown any mountains into the sea, lately?
               
               when used in a parable PARABLE the meaning is metaphoric. In this case the CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT, sheesh, is the word 'obstacle'.
               
               and yes. many obstacles have been thrown to a place where i can not see it anymore.
               It is not the sin of pride that works in a christian to determine who is christian and who is not.. "by their fruits ye shall know them". is this not a call to discern who is who? context, context, context... please.

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   kessposted 13 years ago

   To all the concept of God is always the good.
   
   Now we see within  religion, there are those that believe in god do not do the things  that they claim he says to  do,
   thus the perpetuate hypocrisy within themselves. 
   
   on the other hand, those who say there is no god , they try hard to live in a way that reflect a goodness that is commonly accepted as coming from God.
   
   They too perpetuate hypocrisy within themselves for they do not live as they believe.
   
   Now without these two , there are those who in their zeal to flee all hypocrisy, have identified the false in both side and have chosen to stay without.
   
   These are the ones that would truly see God and declare with utmost conviction, that
   'I am GOD and SON of the MOST High.'

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      Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      (sigh)
      come on kess....
      
      you're not sayin' you're God, are ya?

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         Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Again Brenda, you continue to do the one thing you are NOT suppose to do. Externalize "god". Or do you not read your bible.
         
         For someone who supposedly understand their bible, you seem to pick and choose what you take from it.
         
         You did know that you're supposed to read all of it? Right?
         
         The OT describes 'god' as an external authority, but Jesus' teachings is about internal "god", which is YOU, because only YOUR mind, the thoughts and actions you have or do is in your control(exception- instinctive and emotional).
         
         Just a thought.

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            Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Nothing Jesus taught gives the idea that humans are God.
            And both the Old Testament and the New Testament show us that we have a conscience by which we can gauge our actions.
            
            LOL Cagsil!  If you take away instinct and emotion, there's not much left to even worry about!

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               Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               Talk about not understand human consciousness. WOW!
               
               Brenda, go back to school and learn something would ya?

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                  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  What would the Professors teach me, Cagsil?
                  
                  Would I be taught to find "my inner child"?  (Wasn't that the fad of the 70's or something?
                  
                  Would I be told I'm God? (age-old paganism wrapped up in new clothing)...

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            hanging outposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            I don't think you deserved to be talked to like that brenda, especially when God is totally externalized in the bible.
            doesn't matter what heaven is referred to, they are all external.

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      stoneyyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      kess posted
      
      "To all the concept of God is always the good."
      
      Even though after a lifetime of doing your best he runs a spit lengthwise through your body over the flames that won't be quenched and you never die and commands you to sing his praises?
      
      
      kess posted
      "Now we see within  religion, there are those that believe in god do not do the things  that they claim he says to  do, thus the perpetuate hypocrisy within themselves."
      
      That would be every self-identified Christian.
      
      kess posted
      "on the other hand, those who say there is no god , they try hard to live in a way that reflect a goodness that is commonly accepted as coming from God."
      
      [sigh]  Those who say there is no god say it just as they lack belief in all sorts of other things. 
      
      Goodness has nothing to do with your god and the good/bad concept was around eons before your god was dreamed up.
      
      kess posted
      "They too perpetuate hypocrisy within themselves for they do not live as they believe."
      
      You are a fool.  Those who lack superstition strive to do the best they can.  After all, they are responsible for their actions.  They don't have an imaginary buddy to "cast the magic spell" to wipe the 'slate clean.'  There's no hypocrisy there.
      
      
      kess posted
      "Now without these two , there are those who in their zeal to flee all hypocrisy, have identified the false in both side and have chosen to stay without."
      
      How about translating the above from word salad into English?
      
      kess posted
      "These are the ones that would truly see God and declare with utmost conviction, that
      'I am GOD and SON of the MOST High.'"
      
      OOOOOooooooooooooooook.  {backing away very slowly}

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