IS THERE ANYTHING LIKE REINCARNATION?

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Osa Osazuwa-Tosanposted 15 years ago
Reincarnation is a doctrine that has generated some debates over time. I am interested in knowing whether there really is anything like reincarnation.

Please send your response as you will be doing me, and I'm sure a lot of other folks, a lot of good by enlightening us about the reality and importance of this concept, and remove confusion from us thereby.

Thanks for your kind response.
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  Nickny79posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No one can "prove" to you the existence of reincarnation. There are those who claim to have experienced or perceived the passed lives through decades of meditating in isolation. You are welcome to replicate their techniques and report back to us in 20 years.
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  Jewelsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  It seriously doesn't take that long. And doesn't mean you have to be a full time meditator in order to see, though it is one way. Experiencing past lives is not difficult, though discernment is required to know what is or is not a past life. Convincing you that I've experienced a past life is a fruitless exercise. Unless you experience it yourself, then the concept is vague at best.
  
  One landmine in the learning of states of consciousness is the discursive and chattering mind, that which will doubt even when initially convinced of a metaphysical experience.
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  Nickny79posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Even if we assume arguendo that it's possible to experience past lives--and I in no way deny the possibility--not everyone has the same degree of intuition to achieve the meditative state that allows them to do so. For some, it may indeed take decades or perhaps lifetimes.
  
  Merely stilling the discursive/chattering mind for any significant period of time and entering some semblance "samadhi" is not something that the ordinary person can achieve in a few weeks or months of even consistent meditative practice--the mere attainment of mastery of ones mind in this attention deficited age is, for some, a lifetimes' work.
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  Jewelsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  For some this may be true. But once you learn techniques to quieten the mind, it's just a matter of practice. For most it's not the technique that's the problem, it's the practice of it. Discipline.
  
  I've certainly not mastered my mind - boy if only. (I'm too lazy!) But you seriously don't need to master meditative states to regress and go deep into yourself and experience past lives.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I dont know about coming back in another body but I died and came back in my own body
  .Had things to do .
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  Osa Osazuwa-Tosanposted 15 years agoin reply to this
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  andrasnmposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Even some Bible quotes suggests that reincarnation is real. Reincarnation and karma go hand in hand. The reason we reincarnate is because we have karmic baggage, that need to be equaled out.
  I hope this helps.....
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  Osa Osazuwa-Tosanposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Please give some of the Bible quotes you referred to as suggesting that reincarnation is real.
  
  Thanks for your response.
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  eastridge33posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  i hope u dont come back as a worm i love to sink worms
  (fishing)
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knolyourselfposted 15 years ago
As Nicky said: "No one can "prove" to you the existence of reincarnation."
Life after death, what's the sense just go to heaven and play a harp. Seems if going to have continued existence would want continued embodiments. Only makes sense.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Sounds good to me. Put me down for some reincarnation. Got to be better than hanging out in heaven with a bunch of fascists.......
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knolyourselfposted 15 years ago
Ok put you on the list.
Anybody ever think of the implications of eternal life. What's anybody going to do? But I am having fun now.
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  delordsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The Fact is that there is nothing like incarnation
  because the Bible says it is appointed unto man
  once to die and after death the judgment.
  
  Eternal life has no negative implication but Eternal
  death means you are lost forever in hell far away
  from GOD, and light.
  Eternity is real as real as this post you are reading
  now, as real as you are and thousands keep going
  to eternity unprepared.
  
  you can read about eternity on this blog here
  this is a real Vision of eternity a lady had.
  
  <promotional link snipped>
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Fact?
  
  Come on. You need to look up the definition of the word "fact."
  
  And it is not "A bunch of people believe it."
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  Jewelsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Eternity in this context sounds like an abyss somewhere. The afterlife spaces are not necessarily Eternity. Define Eternity. Eternal Death, what is this? Sounds like Eternity and Eternal Death are the same. If you go to eternity unprepared, is this eternal death? In many other streams of religious teachings, if you are not prepared for eternity, it is not an eternal hell you will end up in, but the cycle of reincarnation. You are reborn to experience life and in doing, with all the luck of the Irish, hopefully you can leave your body in a state fit for 'eternity' next time, provided you have lived a virtuous life.
  
  I personally see the possibility of most people transcending to "Eternity" as very unlikely. But that's my opinion on what I see. While I see spaces/levels that are of a higher state, beautiful in essence, I know this is one level and there are much higher to attain. I'm happy to go to the next step, it's much nicer than here!!
  
  It's certainly not fact I'm talking about here.
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Ralph Deedsposted 15 years ago
Is there anything like reincarnation?

Yes. Grass and perhaps daisies.
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  Jewelsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  That's part of the composting process isn't it? Worm fodder!
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  Osa Osazuwa-Tosanposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Aha, please can you give full explanation?
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Make Moneyposted 15 years ago
Rein-carnation, that's canned milk, isn't it?
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Nickny79posted 15 years ago
Now there's an interesting question: Has anyone had any near death experiences?
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  Dave82689posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Well I almost died when I was a kid, about three-months old, but I was to young to remember anything.
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  Osa Osazuwa-Tosanposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Please if anyone has, please kindly respond.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  It was not a near death experience but a total death experience-enlightenment
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  Jewelsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  If you were enlightened you would not be here. Especially when you look at the Hindu model of enlightenment being merging with the Divine - that's back into non-duality. If you were in non-duality you wouldn't be coming back here - that's for sure.
  
  A total death experience would mean you have lost the link to your physical body, hence the term Near Death Experience exists because you are not permanently dead. You can go into the Death State and be conscious of it and recall the state when you come back into the physical body, though it's common that most don't recall it all.
  
  People who have attained high states of consciousness and can maintain them don't speak about not wanting to be here which I've heard you speak about many times in your comments.
  
  When an initiate also talks about death of the astral body, meaning death to attachment and hence attaining a non-reactive state of being, being in the physical state is usually blissful and there is not much talk of not wanting to BE here.
  
  But this hub seems to be specifically about Death - as in death of the physical body and the continuation of consciousness in another body - reincarnation.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Enlightenment- dying becoming one with the source-god-the light and coming back.
  Like I said before in Hindu terms its called samadhi and maha smadhi.
  
  You seem angry. Once you have tasted the bliss of the light-sure you want to go back home.You understand this dimension is hell but for that you need to awaken.
  
  What do you think Jesus meant when he said reborn?
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  One story goes that a child cries immediately when he is born.The reason -oh no not again
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  Jewelsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Then why not awaken? But to truly die and be reborn in the context of what Jesus was saying - to be reborn from the ashes like a phoenix - is this the reborn you are meaning? Means to die to your conditioned mind, to wash away all pain and all sorrows, etc. etc. All unconscious and subconscious samskaras - scars of the mind - are healed because you have let go of them. You truly have choice in this sense - before there were reactions, now there are choices to not react.
  
  What the world needs more than anything is virtuous, courageous, awakened people who have a sense of action in their blood. Create Heaven on Earth. And the amazing thing when people do full on spiritual transformation, it's often service that is the result. Get the bliss every time you meditate in the morning, then get into Life. Bring all of yourself into the world, spread it around. Otherwise life can suck! Paradoxes in high states of consciousness.
  
  I apologize if I sounded angry.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I am a religious poet spreading god knowledge- I know what I have to do
  This planet needs everyone to awaken and go back home
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Paragliderposted 15 years ago
Proud Songsters, by Thomas Hardy

The thrushes sing as the sun is going,
And the finches whistle in ones and pairs.
And as it gets dark loud nightingales
In bushes
Pipe, as they can when April wears,
As if all time were theirs.

These are brand-new birds of twelve-months’ growing,
Which a year ago, or less than twain,
No finches were, nor nightingales,
Nor thrushes,
But only particles of grain,
And earth, and air, and rain.

-------------------------------------
As it is with birds, so it is with humans. We are part and product of the natural world. We are alive between birth and death, when our elements gradually disperse, perhaps to be re-used in other living things. Consciousness doesn't necessarily imply separation of 'soul' from brain, far less any continuity of 'soul' into a future body. That is an article of faith which some find convincing and comforting, and others don't espouse.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  True we may just merge with everything in the cosmos
  some lines from
  
  Sea
  How much magic do you hold?
  With you in the end I will mold.
  
  Then you have masters like Khalil Gibran in the Prophet says he will come back
  Know therefore, that from the greater silence I shall return.
  Only Almitra was silent, gazing after the ship until it had vanished into the mist.
  
  And when all the people were dispersed she still stood alone upon the sea-wall, remembering in her heart his saying,
  
  A little while, a moment of rest upon the wind, and another woman shall bear me."
  
  I dont need to know my past life -not important for me. :)but I am tired and dont want to come back
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weblogposted 15 years ago
I don't think there is
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  Osa Osazuwa-Tosanposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Okay, can you please give reason(s)?
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TravelMonkeyposted 15 years ago
Who decides who reincarnates or do we all? I find it hard to believe that anyone will die and come back in another form decided upon by karmic baggage. If someone carries a lot of negative karmic baggage, do they return in the form of a lonely sea critter situated at the bottom of the ocean?
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You are the creator ,that is you manifest to fulfill your desires.So long as you have desires you will come back.According to some philosophies yes you will come back in another form to complete that desire.
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Shil1978posted 15 years ago
In nature, you have a cycle. Things are created, destroyed and are created again. I view death as a transition to another form - a change of mass (physical body) to energy (the soul) and I believe this to be a cyclical process (reincarnation). Mass - energy - mass. There certainly have been examples of people, from around the world, who have remembered specific details of their past birth. Perhaps, the most well known amongst these cases is the example of The Dalai Lama. It is a fascinating subject and requires more research.
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jkfrancisposted 15 years ago
Like most religious beliefs - from Judaism to Catholicism to Islam to Buddhism to Hinduism etc. - they were started from 4,000 - 2,000 years ago, give or take. Reincarnation falls into this category. Unfortunately, the leaders of these religions have been more concerned about maintaining their authority in claiming these beliefs to be unchanging than investigating them.

Rather than just going along with the belief that we actually come back as ourselves, perhaps a more modern theory/belief would be that what we do while we are alive has an impact on the world that follows us and in that way we "come back" or perhaps, live on. This at least would give us an incentive to make a positive difference in the world we live in. This also fits in with humankind's respect for our ancestors, burials, and honoring those who lived before us.

This would make a big difference on how we look at ourselves and the importance of us individually as to how we affect the world and the future. What have we done in our lives that affects the world so that our influence is reincarnated or lives on? For example, Buddha has had an important and dramatic influence on the world that followed him. Does he have to actually "become" again to relieve that impact?

Rather than "just" individuals who have been "created" by God to eventually honor him forever in heaven in eternal pleasure, as Christians and others believe, we would have a better purpose in our lives than some vague/believed promise.

Who we are and what we will become have been questions that have been asked for millennia, yet those ideas/beliefs have not been allowed or encouraged to change. Perhaps investigating these questions with the knowledge we have accumulated over the last 2,000 - 4,000 years without regard to the "authorities" that have stifled investigating those questions would come up with better ideas about them.

Humankind used to believe that we were the center of all that is. We now know that we are just a small - though not insignificant - part of the universe. How we fit into that picture is something that deserves consideration.

jk francis
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  Jewelsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I like what you've written here jk. It also bodes well with the concept of a 'spiritual' evolution, ie how we transform ourselves. Who we become - hopefully better human beings. Though I think we're doing a terrible job when you look at the world today.
  
  The sad truth I see is that in modern times what has been written is now just dogma. Having the experience is what's important. In those ancient times experience was normal, now it's not. We buy into what we are told and that becomes belief. But that is not knowledge, knowledge only comes from knowing, knowing is from experience. Having a past life experience is knowledge, it's an experience but to have it requires bypassing the dogma. How frustrating. - Mike this is where chitta becomes rampant. We have to sift through all the dogmatic literature that is lodged in us before we actually find truth.
  
  I'd love to be around when you have such an experience, it's truly life changing - that's if you can let your blah blah minds let you believe it! This is what I came up against when I was having them. When in the space, no question, no doubt. A few hours later, I'd minced every experience, put every if and but in front of it and decided I was deluding myself. I learned not to get caught up in "it's a past life, and I was a warrior" syndrome, and started looking at what was behind it and what I could use from it. That's when the wow moments come.
  
  That was a bit off into my own stuff there. But my understanding that I continue, my consciousness continues was cemented when I had those past life experiences. What I did in past lives effected this life. If I can overcome in this life, the next (hopefully) will be more fruitful! Though saying that - it's like a game of Russian roulette. How do I know how much I have transformed? Is it a Transformed Soul? Is it Enlightenment? - Though understanding Enlightenment has become a vague term to most and I shudder whenever I write or see the word. Is it a fully awakened human being? Massive questions and only answerable inside each individual.
  
  I have to look after this physical body because it's the current host of my consciousness - literally, I'm off to the gym. Hope to return soon!
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Shil1978posted 15 years ago
JK - Investigation of reincarnation hasn't been stifled by anybody. In fact, scientists have carried out research into it. Do type in the keywords on Google and find out the number of studies that have viewed reincarnation positively. The "authorities" that you speak of don't exist. Are you saying that the Dalai Lama acts like a dictator and prevents his people from anything??
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Make Moneyposted 15 years ago
Could it be possible that someone that believes that they have been reincarnated from a previous person not just be, as someone else put it the "chattering of the mind"? I guess we will never know for sure in this life.
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  Jewelsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yes MM, this is common. Lots of people say they are the reincarnation of Cleopatra - geez! Here though it's common to regress back to the time of Cleopatra and that's what people pick up on. That's why discernment is needed. At the end of the day who gives a continental. What's very useful in these experience is the continuum that comes with it. I've done allot of therapy with people and I get a bit tired of the stories - they are exhausting. What's useful is how it relates to a person's current life.
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Jewelsposted 15 years ago
"One story goes that a child cries immediately when he is born.The reason -oh no not again."

One experience that is common for many is that of being in their mothers womb, and just prior to that a sense of falling. The falling is verbalized (ie peoples experience) as the descent into life, the experience of reincarnation. And that experience is replicated many times as a great feeling of disappointment. I sometimes wonder if this accounts for the fear of falling that is one of the top phobias we have. Even if people have never had an experience of falling, either off a swing, or out of bed, they can still have this fear. Same with the fear of heights - is it one and the same thing - heights and falling?

Why is there that saying of "Falling from grace." Was it the separation of the sexes and the resultant Fall?

Then again - have you seen the way some of those babies are yanked from the mother and onto a cold sterile weighing scale. Who wouldn't be shocked and want to go back into that warm snuggly womb space.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Some sages say that a child remembers where he has come from .The reason he or she cries is because they understand this dimension is that of pain and that they are back in it once again.
  Like Paramhansa Yogananda says when he was dying- grieve not for me as I am going to a place where there is no broken bones,excruciating heartache and disease.
  When one crosses over they understand this planet is not such a great place.
  
  In this world we are all referring,
  To sparks of happiness and flames of suffering.
  
  The bliss one experiences in being one with the light.
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gamergirlposted 15 years ago
*facepalms*
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Jewelsposted 15 years ago
Then again, it is understood also that this planet is as divine as the rest and it is as much an honor being here than anywhere. It is sad to go through life feeling our human existence is about getting out of it!
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  This understanding is wrong .It is possible only by someone who knows only this dimension and not God dimension
  .Then there is nothing to compare so the man with ego will cling to this life ,this planet ,scared of death that doesnt exist.
  The wise will wake up to the suffering around him like the Buddha and wait patiently to go home .
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  Jewelsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I don't believe my understanding is wrong - perhaps wrong in terms of your understanding. But then you need to define what you mean and see and experience as "God dimension."
  There are a myriad of dimensions, a myriad of states of consciousness. You can live on this planet in a much better or higher state of consciousness; where the only desire is to leave is not part of that state of consciousness. You can be in bliss and still not be one with God yet feel as if you are. In duality, this human experience is only one of many.
  
  A wise person doesn't wait patiently to go home, a wise person engages will to ensure his mind is in a state where going home is one of ease and not disease. Disease can be carried from one life to the next and until ones dis-ease is unravelled, that state of purity will not be reached. Even while walking on this earth, one chooses to either endure suffering, or transcend it knowing there is suffering but not be effected by it. At the end of the day the only one you can transform is yourself and by your own virtues and state of being can you be of true service to others. Healing others and forsaking yourself is a waste of being a healer if you are left unhealed.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Forget it be happy
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  Jewelsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
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ask dr senposted 15 years ago
reincarnation-the clever tool for control

the whole world functions via control
the boss controls his employees
teacher controls students
wife controls husband or rarely vice versa
mother controls children
politicians control laws and land
religion controls people
nowadays television controls people.

what is re incarnation?
the pros- are energy cannot be destroyed it can be transformed so scientifically even as per einstein theory energy will be transformed even after death. that is the point reincarnation tries to drive
the cons -are the same body or same individual in another body is a big humbug. this is because then there was no evolution or embryology science.

we think we are fully evolved but we have not
we have not understood alchemy only chemistry and we say from alchemy chemistry evolved

same way we say philosophy evolved from religion when it is the other way around

we still have no scientific understanding of astrology only astronomy
same way the science of healing and cosmos we have no idea

immunomics and energy meridians in our own body we are unable to decipher.

so let us analyse the science of metaphysics to understand reincarnation where the energy is transformed at will.
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  Jewelsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  We may have to wait till hell freezes over before science can give proof. And because science uses mostly physical instruments to prove or measure, how is it going to measure something non-physical?
  
  It's very difficult to have an intelligent discussion on topics such as astrology and it's relationship to astronomy for example. As soon as I put forward possibilities of understanding, even from an experiential standpoint, it is quickly quashed by the science forum. They are different in that one is physical - planets and stars, moons, black holes, galaxies, and are measurable by the use of mathematics and measuring instruments. But when speaking about the emission of an energetic influence, even if mapped, eg 1000 people had the same experience when looking at Venus for eg, it comes under the name of pseudo science which for many scientists is nonesense.
  
  Proving the existence of reincarnation comes down to peoples experiences. It's not provable or measurable except by consensus. Then the skeptic will come in and question anything that is a swayable argument. So be it. I like the skeptic because discernment is one of the most useful tools to 'keep the bastards honest' and protect the gullible.
  
  The study of consciousness and having experiences where consciousness is separated from the physical body is an awesome knowledge to have. (As energy cannot be destroyed, in your context consciousness is energy and it is this that cannot be destroyed.) Yet, unless a person has the experience themselves, there is no way they can be convinced. It's a useless exercise and I think it should remain that way. It's one thing to have faith, and in many ways faith can be dangerous if you are swayed by bad winds. It's much more powerful to have experience, regardless of whether someone else believes you or not. Experience is the most powerful form of knowledge. We can do ourselves a favor and be open to things outside our explainable square, that's how we learn more.
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knolyourselfposted 15 years ago
"The Fact is that there is nothing like incarnation because the Bible says it is appointed unto man once to die and after death the judgment." Don't really care much what the bible says.
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indianabobposted 15 years ago
Good evening fellow hubbers,

Re-incarnation in the most simple terms is to return to the life one had before death.

Resurrection in my view has the same dictionary definition. Some may disagree thinking that various life forms may be the fate of the individual depending upon their sins.

The question then is, in what form do we live again? In my view of the basic Judeo Christian belief, that would mean to return to life as you were the moment before death except with a new, equally mature physical or perhaps a spiritual body. To return to life in a physically perfect body, no lost limbs or necessary organs, OR to return to life in a spiritual, immortal body that is the gift of the creator God, if that is the creator's will for a particular individual.

In any case the form of life that will be evident if one is resurrected spiritual is at present unknown. Spiritual means not visible to the human eye and like the blowing wind etc.

How is this possible? It is a miracle of the creator and we know only enough to give us hope at this time. In any instance however, the person will live again with memory of their former life, limited to what the creator desires that they recall and having full powers of observation and communication such as vision and hearing and the ability to appear to those who are yet physical when permitted by the creator.

All of this can be found in the Jewish/Christian Bible if one takes the time to investigate and if one has been given spiritual understanding by the creator.

I know that I am assuming a lot, but I appeal to one and all to be patient with me while we investigate together.

Thanks for your interest, Indiana bob
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Jewelsposted 15 years ago
The Fact is that there is nothing like incarnation
because the Bible says it is appointed unto man
once to die and after death the judgment........

Good Lord delords, you may think this is fact - it's your fact and hence your belief. Happy afterlife to you and may your judgment be pleasant.
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aka-djposted 15 years ago
Reincarnation is illogical to me. It does not answer the question of "why". For instance, if a person did not achieve their level of "holiness" or "karma", they get to come back as a chicken or goat or cow. This then continues untill they "ascend" to a human, and hopefully, one day attain eternal status, (a god). And then.....?
So, how does that coincide with the population growth (explosion), and th extiction of species, and the (mass) destruction of living creatures, like sharks, tuna, chickens, cows, mosquitos,...you name it. Do they thenmove up the scale? If so, let's kill more and more! (sarcasm mine)!
It's a useles futile cycle of torture, where the person being "recycled" doesn't even know he/she is supposed to learn something in the process. All the while, some god/s are haveing the time of their life, enjoying the "show".

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  Jewelsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  It's an interesting one about the evolution from animal to human. I have never experienced a recollection of a four legged creature, though I have seen structures that are fish like - please spare me the nutter remarks! I was gobsmacked when I saw this.
  
  The population growth is one of the main arguements around reincarnation and it's not one easily answered. Speculation is there that we are only one species of beings (human beings) that exist. When you talk about consciousness, the form it takes is not physical. And if you understand that we are 'spiritual beings having a human experience' that opens the door for any spiritual being to have a human experience, ie incarnate in the human form. One has to step outside the box for that one. But why not? It's like saying we humans are the only inhabitants in the universe. It's a darn big universe, very arrogant to say Earth is the only rock with intelligent life forms.
  
  I'm not Buddhist, whilst I understand their belief that animals evolve into humans, I don't spend time looking. I sometimes question some human being's behaviour - very animal like at times!!
  
  That question WHY. Yes, for Godsake WHY? Not answerable. It's what keeps philosophers occupied.
  
  I see the cycle of reincarnation as quite logical. A bit like going to school, if you pass your subjects you go up to the next level until you reach high school, then college, university. If you fail, you could repeat a class. If you're really bad you may have to sit in a corner for awhile until you get back on track.
  
  The world is full of suffering and at times it's torturous. And I'm sure there are higher beings looking at us laughing themselves into drunkenness watching how silly we are.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah, but look at what you think is "logical."
  
  Original sin. God's only son sent to save you. Eternal bliss for those that accept and eternal damnation for everyone else.
  
  I mean...................
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  aka-djposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Logical? Yes, if you start with the (correct) assumption. For you, it is illogical, because your starting point is, "There is no god"! Vice-versa for me.
  Don't like it?, well . . . . what can I say.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No. I just find it ironic that you find an alternative opinion "illogical," when you are starting from a faith-based assumption.
  
  Bit like the use of the words "facts" and "correct" - As you have probably worked out - this is one of my issues with religions. When you "assume" that you have "facts" that are "correct" then "logically" every one else is "wrong".
  
  Hence the wars and the killing and the hating. And there is no way to stop this once you "know for certain" that your way is "correct" and "the only way to be saved from hell."
  
  If I "knew" this was "right" I would try and make everyone else believe it. At the point of a gun if necessary.
  
  For their own "good."
  
  As religious zealots have done throughout the ages. History books are a wonderful thing. You can learn stuff from them. Which makes you question things. Which means you find your own answers. Not the ones that come ready packaged on a plate. Usually a collection plate.
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  aka-djposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry to ruin your argument, but I have never killed anyone. Nor have I tried to convince anyone that my way is the only way, especially using a gun.
  However, I STRONGLY believe there is (A) truth, which neccessitates the existance of lies, or "un-truths" as polititians like to call them. My quest is to learn/discover (that) truth. I think I am well on my way, but just as God is an incredibly awesome Being, I doubt I will but "scratch the surface" of that one.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Well, I wouldn't call completely missing the point ruining my argument. In fact, quite the opposite. I think you rather made my point for me. You are not interested in history.
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  Shil1978posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Couldn't agree more Mark. Nicely put. Questioning is important. The assumption that one's beliefs are correct / should be correct / can't be questioned, etc and the conviction that the other's view or belief has to be wrong and shouldn't even be entertained is one of the reasons for the many conflicts we find ourselves in.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yup. But when you believe - you are not interested in listening to this. I watch all these guys arguing over who is "right," which necessarily means everyone else is "wrong," and I have come to the conclusion that they are all "wrong," the moment they add a personalty and a set of rules.
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  BDazzlerposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
  C. S. Lewis
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  There you go. Not just me that thinks this way then. I see the Jews and the Catholics are getting back into it again over who said what when, who reinstated who, whether the Vicar of Christ knows what is going on, and whether the one who was kicked out and then let back in again is allowed to say what he thinks, even if it is rubbish, which is rather entertaining considering they all believe in a magical, invisible super being.
  
  And you wonder why I think you are all wrong?.............
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  BDazzlerposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I don't think I've ever defended institutional Christianity. And if I have. I was wrong.
  
  Belief in God? Yes. Belief in Jesus? Yes. Miracles? Yes. Individual pastors? Yes. Church organization in general? Nope. Specific congregations? Yes. Individual Catholics? Yes. The institution known as the Catholic church? Nope.
  
  The secular institution masking iteslf as being of Christ? Nope, not me. I'm as against it as you are. It is an offense against God.
  
  I'm also a bit bemused by Christians who expect non-Christians to act like Christians and have Christian values.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I can't say that I have met many christians who "act like christians," or hold "christian values."
  
  Or at least as I understand what that means. So I don't see how non-christians behave any differently to christians.
  
  But think about this - without institutional christianity - there would be no christianity. See where I am going with that?
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  BDazzlerposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  My brother and I have had the same debate ... so, yes, I see where you are going, and since my brother is an attorney who is married to an attorney, I know I can be "out logic-ed" on that issue. (That doesn't make me think I'm wrong, something else I've learned from these family debates is that one can successfully argue a totally wrong conclusion in an air-tight way.)
  
  Since you begin your thinking on premise on the axiom of the non-existance of God, you can logically come to no other conclusion.
  
  I begin with the axiom of the existance of God, my conclusion is that the instutituion known as "Christianity" is a corruption of God's original intent.
  
  Since we begin with different axioms, it would not be logical to expect us to come to the same conclusion.
  
  I am currently reading a couple of books on church history to flesh out my thinking on this topic.
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  Sufidreamerposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  
  My cousin is one, too.
  
  Lawyers use the most dangerous logic of all - warped logic. Their arguments are always weak, but they are supreme at thinking on the spot, throwing so much at you that you have little time to react!
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  That is where you are completely wrong. I began my thinking with the axiom of the existence of god. Just not to the exclusion of logic and reasonable examination of the evidence and proofs available. One of the things that helped me is the logical conclusion of - No institutional christianity = no christianity. And you, or people like you, helped me to that conclusion.
  
  Although if you are prepared to say. "I am never going to be wrong, no matter what. Nothing you say will ever make me change my mind. I have already decided." no amount of logic is going to sway you.
  
  That is the danger of religions and believing in magical, invisible super beings that refuse to manifest themselves in any way shape or form. (Discounting anecdotal evidence of secret messages passed to one individual with no witnesses.)
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  aka-djposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  1) He is not "magical"!
  2) He DID manifest Himself, in human form. You may have heard of Him.... Jesus Christ.
  3)What arrogance you display, (yet again) asking for a special manifestation just for you. What makes you think that what has already been given, is not sufficient?
  Oh yes, you sent me to a website that argued He never existed! Their arguments held no sway with me. (They too must have been lawyers)
  PS. I think, in your efforts to "purge" your religious indoctrination, you may have "thrown the baby out with the bathwater".
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  1) Of course He is.
  2) No. You just believe that particular fairy tale - and many "believers" disagree.
  3) Why is it arrogant to ask for that? Just because I am not dumb enough to believe without.
  
  No argument will ever hold any sway with you ever. You have already decided you do not need any proof. That is the problem with believing in magical, invisible super beings.
  
  Once again, dj - there is no baby and there is no bathwater. Keep on saying there is will not make it happen.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  That is where you are completely wrong. I began my thinking with the axiom of the existence of god. Just not to the exclusion of logic and reasonable examination of the evidence and proofs available. One of the things that helped me is the logical conclusion of - No institutional christianity = no christianity. And you, or people like you, helped me to that conclusion.
  
  Although if you are prepared to say. "I am never going to be wrong, no matter what. Nothing you say will ever make me change my mind. I have already decided." no amount of logic is going to sway you.
  
  That is the danger of religions and believing in magical, invisible super beings that refuse to manifest themselves in any way shape or form. (Discounting anecdotal evidence of secret messages passed to one individual with no witnesses.)
  
  Lawyers ! * spits * Almost as bad a politicians, clerics and bankers.
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  BDazzlerposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  "People like me" ... well ...
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Is that a bad thing? I would have thought you would like being grouped with "people like you "?
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  BDazzlerposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  - I avoid ALL generalizations!
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Coulda' fooled me
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  BDazzlerposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Generally speaking of course,
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
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  Jewelsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Ooooo, I like that.
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knolyourselfposted 15 years ago
"It's a useles futile cycle of torture, where the person being "recycled" doesn't even know he/she is supposed to learn something in the process."
I agree. But then so is sittin' around on a cloud for an eternity. Which is worse? Still if there is elevated consciousness and one cannot recognize it,
one cannot make a decision in reference to it, if there is choice in it all, and is
stuck where they are.
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  aka-djposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  That's not at all my concept of Eternity. Don't know where you got that misconception. It's one that (far too) many people have.
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  Jewelsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Like this statement: "if there is elevated consciousness and one cannot recognize it." This is one of the main reasons for doing meditation, or understanding states of consciousness. It's very useful, if I can use such a material description. In the process of death, there are phases to go through and if one is totally oblivious to the surroundings, one is lost. It's like landing on the moon with no map. And to make matters worse the physical structure we are so used to having, falls away, so even our arms and legs fail us. Our voice doesn't work. You don't have the external senses to rely on. So that leaves consciousness.
  
  And for those who think, yeah, I will know what's good for me and I'll be attracted to high states of consciousness and I'm going to a good place, take a look at who gets attracted to what down here - and thinks that attraction is a good one.
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knolyourselfposted 15 years ago
"That's not at all my concept of Eternity."
What is your concept?
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  aka-djposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I will have to write a hub on that one. I can't do it (even a little) justice in a forum like this.
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  aka-djposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Here's a hub that covers some of my thoughts on that.
  http://hubpages.com/hub/THE-ETERNITY--L … -AND-EARTH
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knolyourselfposted 15 years ago
You hit a very many of the points, most of which I agree. I fool around with this stuff myself. Cept the dream astral thing. Trying to control dreams gives me night mares, as Carlos Castaneda in the words of Don Juan, said it would.
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  Jewelsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not good with the dreams myself, in fact I rarely have them, or remember them. The only ones I remember are those that are of a prophetic nature and so when I do remember one I take particular note of them. Interestingly there seems to be a loud voice saying "take note!"
  
  But it appears that the dream state is not necessarily one to control, but one to observe and then know that you are observing. Particularly as some people seem to experience allot or have a very active dream life, it makes you wonder what's going on. But having said this, being the observer, to have consciousness in these spaces allows you to move through them and not get caught in them, unless of course you want to. Doesn't mean you have to. I wonder if the dream state is something not to be controlled. Makes me wonder. In my experience, by the way, the dream state is like a movie in the sleep state, it's not necessarily all that there is. It is one of those layers hard to fathom regardless.
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andrewpetersonposted 15 years ago
No, I strongly believe that there is no such thing like reincarnation
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  Shil1978posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  While you are free to have that particular opinion, you can't make a definitive statement like that. Its quite impossible to state with certainty that you don't believe when you can't possibly have all the facts on this issue. So, the proper stance would be to be neutral on the issue - pending further facts!!!
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countrywomenposted 15 years ago
Copying from an earlier discussion on similar lines. All I would like to say is that there are so many things which are based on faith which seem logical to those who believe and illogical to those who disbelieve. On most of the matters of faith there is very little to verify except for the faith of the individual at least on reincarnation there is some remote possibility of verification.
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aka-djposted 15 years ago
History?
I'm VERY interested in "His-story"!!
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Exactly. Thank you.
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  aka-djposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You like that?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Well, its funny so yes.
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Mark Knowlesposted 15 years ago
And I wanted to share - I thought all you believers might enjoy this one -

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knolyourselfposted 15 years ago
Jewels: I dream every night. Wake once, twice, three times always dreaming.
Most I do not remember. But I do not mess with my dreams, don't try to interpret them. I just let them be. But usually what they do is work out my self-made philosophical problems in symbolic form, and are very helpful in that sense. I do have a recurring dream, not exact, but same theme, of which I am not sure what the reason is. Mostly they are fun.
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  countrywomenposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Although I don't remember having dreams but when I do remember they are far too realistic Btw here is a link for recurring dreams: http://www.janeanderson.com.au/library/ … dreams.cfm
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eastridge33posted 15 years ago
Mr.Knowles one can not see a manifest with ones eyes closed.
Go hang out at the (BIG BANG THEROY) test let me know what happens.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  
  Apparently you can see a manifest with your eyes closed. In fact - it appears to be vital.
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  jgrimes331posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Apparently you can see a manifest with your eyes closed. In fact- it appears to be useless.
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