At what point a believer can be convinced?

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Rishy Richposted 13 years ago
Is there any logical distinction between Faith & Blind Faith?? Is faith & blind faith the same thing by nature?? Is there any logic that can counter your faith??

An atheist, as we know is open to new dogmas, their science can be changed over time with the advent of new physical laws, but the dogmas of theists are rigid. While an atheist always looks for new rules & discoveries for better solution, a theist merely continues to look for new ways to defend his old faith. An atheist would love to learn new laws of physics & he would be glad to advance to the nuclear science. On the contrary, a theist would never accept a new religious law nor will admire a new Bible.

An atheist goes with the flow. If tomorrow a new Einstein emerges with some new proven laws of physics then like all the scientists, atheists too will throw out the old laws & will stick to the new. That’s a positive sign of atheism which does not restrict the growth & advancement of humanity.

On the contrary, most believers are indulged in their notion so deep that even if God tell them that their faith is wrong & their book is not HIS words, they would still think of that as Satan trying to deceive them & will continue to stick with their old laws. A prime example of this would be Jews rejecting Jesus in his life time. Faith systems have established a form of KNOWLEDGE EMBARGO on its followers which completely shuts down the door of acceptance & affecting the growth of human understanding. It might sound harsh but the truth is theres no room for a new Doctrine in a given religion.

Now, I might be wrong but if I am truly wrong, I would love to know at what point a believer can be convinced his faith is wrong? Do you have a point where you would be convinced with logic that you might have been wrong so far? If you do, would you like to share it or will you continue with ‘My faith is the Best’ line forever?? If so, dont you think that other faith systems are doing the same & you are no different...
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  qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  ...they must experience the "age-of-reason."
  Nothing else would work.
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  Rishy Richposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  True...but I think they dont want to
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  Stump Parrishposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I'll repeat a story I've mentioned before...I was discussing evolution and the age of the earth with a hard core christian friend from high school and when I asked him what he was using to support his claim that the planet was about 6200 years old, he stated...I believe in god and that is all the proof I need. If that makes sense to you then allow me to state thius...Your a d&mn&d idiot and dont deserve the right to vote.
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  Rishy Richposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  lol
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  your friend's mind is shut tighter than a fish's bottom, and that's watertight!
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  Twenty One Daysposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Rich,
  We've had this discord before.
  
  Faith has nothing to do with the mind. Logic, as we know well, is limited to the mind. So if anyone is conditioning faith -seen or blind- to the mind, they are transmitting either confusion or hope.
  A-theist and a theist operate by the same principles. Both are passive-aggressive rigid when challenged or attacked. Both go with the flow when all is quiet. But, when things outside the human mind begin to challenge those ideologies --from both positions-- then each prepares for battle. The fantasy of evolution or the fantasy of gods is an illusion. A trick played by the mind to keep mankind in the same stasis he has been for ages. When man seizes to exercise his demons ( the priori ), he will be able fully, without reserve to experience faith ( reality ).
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  QudsiaP1posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  To convince any one of what you think is right, you must have something to allibi your claim and disdain theirs.
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Jeramiposted 13 years ago
Rishy Rich wrote
Is there any logical distinction between Faith & Blind Faith??

- - - - -
I think that there is. If I were lost in the woods, and a mountain lion came out on my path and I followed it to my destination. It would be faith that would lead me to believe that this was the intention of the mountain lion.

It would be blind faith for you to believe my story.

I don't think that most Theists are as opposed to scientific discovery as you are asserting.
There is not one clear and distinct line in the sand separating Theists and Atheist ... that says .. everyone on this side of the line are correct and everyone on that side are wrong.

Many Atheists would have us to believe that science has proven that there is no such thing as another dimension of reality. When in fact, all that science says is that we have not yet found a way to cross that river to investigate.

We can not examine The paranormal by NORMAL means.

Someone might say "What the heck was that" someone else says "I don't know, lets store this information in the paranormal files" We can investigate that further, later!
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  pisean282311posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Many Atheists would have us to believe that science has proven that there is no such thing as another dimension of reality. When in fact, all that science says is that we have not yet found a way to cross that river to investigate.
  
  well i agree but can't we wait till river is crossed than believing claims of some one who claims to have crossed river but can't back it with solid proof?...that becomes mere imagination...isn't it?
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That is true,
  
  Can I or anyone else that claims to have seen something between the trees and the water's edge on the other side of the river prove their statement? NO
  But that person can not help but to wonder????
  To make definitive claims as to what is beyond our vision; hidden beyond the tree line would be an exaggeration of fact.
  
  If we envision the river as a brick wall we will never know what is on the other side.
  There will always be something lying just out of our vision.
  And our imagination will always have a job that needs done.
  
  Science feeds on overactive imaginations. This is where their new discoveries are found.
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  Rishy Richposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You are talking as if the theists are the only creative minds with the rare ability of envisioning whats on the other side of the river, while scientists or atheists lack the imagination power to realize that. LOL
  
  However, in reality its quite the opposite. As I mentioned above, its the atheists & scientists who are open to new concepts & ideas all the time. Each individual scientist tries to come up with a better theory with his unique imagination. They only stick to their old ideas as long as the evidence proves the concept right.
  
  On the other hand, with all their vision, imagination & creativity, the theists can only come up with one scenario - God created us & the holy book is his word & proof of it!!! THIS IS NOT A UNIQUE VISION. Unlike science, Its not something each individual theist comes up with, it is something they were given in their childhood & taught to defend. The Christian theist would only vision Christ while the Muslim theist would only vision Muhammad. In their vision, theres nothing else. Its a dead end. Their mind is caged, their thinking is blindfolded. It has blocked their mental growth, its a blockade for humanity's advancement & growth.
  
  Vision or imagination when coupled with creativity, expected to provide a new outcome. Imagination & vision is not like something you quote from a book & continue to believe that is true.
  
  & YES, most theists do oppose scientific discovery especially when it starts to questions their faith. i.e. Evolution.
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skyfireposted 13 years ago
LOL of the day.

Fantasy stories, imagination and Burden of Proof. I think our education system needs to add some lessons on these.
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Absolutely !! Educational system can not be ignored.
  And the educational system should not ignore the imaginations of our up and coming Einsteins.
  
  Sometimes our "NEW" discoveries come from OLD Ideas. imagination that had previously been rejected or put on the side burner.
  
  Time for me to go to work. Later.
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  skyfireposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  When you come back to forums, don't forget to comment on fantasy stories and burden of proof point.
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kessposted 13 years ago
8lind faith is a faith based on some knowlege but mostly ignorance.
Most christians fall into such category.
when ask about their faith, they will rehearse much knowledge from anothe whom they trust but they remain ignorant. This is seen when pressed to give expplanations to their answers.

Atheist ob the other hand are just as ignorant, for they also do not have answers and likewise merely repeat their trusted source.

Each find comfort in being part of a community and this fact they will find it difficult of themselves to leave for it would mean denying their own identity and assumming one which they have always considered as false.

if therfore both would accept the plain truth in the others way of thinking then Truth would come to them .
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  qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hello Kess:
  give us an example of what you mean:
  "if therfore both would accept the plain truth in the others way of thinking then Truth would come to them ."
  I find no truth in religious dogma other than it all being naught but opinion and conjecture.
  Pls enlighten me...ty
  Qwark
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  qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "Atheist ob the other hand are just as ignorant, for they also do not have answers and likewise merely repeat their trusted source."
  How do you come to the conclusion that disbelievers are as "ignorant" as "believers?"
  I am not a "believer" in metaphysical divinities. My beliefs are based upon the "factual," not on "hope."
  No doubt we humans are ignorant, ALL OF US. Some to a much greater degree than others.
  Pls clarify your comment with proofs....ty
  Qwark
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  Rishy Richposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  He never clarifies, never! He doesnt know what he is talking about. He has no rational explanation or proof. I think he is into some Guru or Tantric kinda thing. Sometimes his words sounds good but doesnt make any sense.
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  kessposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  All truth ia available to all men,
  
  some take liberally and in abundance, while others take sparingly.
  
  those who take sparingly now turn and demand from those who has taken liberally. accusing them of all sorts of things.
  
  look for the truth in all things my friend, there is no lie except truth be with it.
  
  I trust that you understand the value of truth in that you desire it with all your heart.
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  Disappearingheadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Look for the truth in all things? What do you mean by that? It sounds all fluffy and non-commital. Sounds like you think truth can be whatever you want it to be as long as you navel gaze long enough, or look inside your inner karma or something.
  
  I'm going to look at my block of cheese when I get home to see if I can find some truth inside it.
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  kessposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  One can find no truth with an unbeliving mind, and even cheese cannot hide truth, it is you who turn away from it for the foolishness of men is the wisdom of God
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  Disappearingheadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  ????? What unbelieving mind do I have Kess?
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  kessposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The unbelieving mind never seek after the Truth, it is seen in the nature of their questions and are alwys expecting of another to prove their posiition.
  
  Those who desires truth will have all the proof they need in and of themselves.
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Jeramiposted 13 years ago
kess wrote ...
if therfore both would accept the plain truth in the others way of thinking then Truth would come to them .

- - - -

I think that you are onto something there !!
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kessposted 13 years ago
Hello Ty, there is nothing that I can say to you that you?have not heard and discard as rubbish.

So therefore my encouragement to you is to re examine the rubbish and if you indeed desire truth, therein you would find much.

Let not your present identity stand in the way of the truth.

You cannot know truth unless you find it in you...

My truth blong to me and by I am judged, you truth belongs to you and by it you are judged, in that all men stand as equal.

You are not expected to live by my truth neither me by yours.

All I can do is examine my truth to know if they are indeed so and there is a standard which I use to judge and that is within me and the standard is true.
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Very true. The way that we see our own truth depends upon if we are walking through the swamp or across the ridges along the edge of the valley.
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  qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Kess: That is a copout.
  You have no logical answer.
  From what I just read, you, yourself don't know what you are talking about.
  You are just another "simple" follower who knows not why you "follow."
  Another response like that and I'll have to add you to my list of those not to respond to 'cause ya have nothing credible to offer.
  Qwark
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  kessposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  There are many who sit in the Light but yet they will not even look at the Light, but they will revel in their own darkness(ignorance).
  
  And afterward when all the light is gone, they cannot even see to revel in their ignorance.
  
  Nevertheless it is the wisdom Of the Father to establish Himself upon such.
  
  So eventually to the ignorant, I will always be ignorant, and this makes me glad for by it I am also established in the Father.
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  getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  You might as well go ahead and add him now!
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Jeramiposted 13 years ago
Jerami wrote:
That is true,

Can I or anyone else that claims to have seen something between the trees and the water's edge on the other side of the river prove their statement? NO
But that person can not help but to wonder????
To make definitive claims as to what is beyond our vision; hidden beyond the tree line would be an exaggeration of fact.

If we envision the river as a brick wall we will never know what is on the other side.
There will always be something lying just out of our vision.
And our imagination will always have a job that needs done.

Science feeds on overactive imaginations. This is where their new discoveries are found.
=======================================
Rishy Rich wrote ...
You are talking as if the theists are the only creative minds with the rare ability of envisioning whats on the other side of the river, while scientists or atheists lack the imagination power to realize that. LOL
- - - - - -

No No NO ! that isn't what I said ! It may be what you received but isn't what I said !
====================================================
RR .... However, in reality its quite the opposite. As I mentioned above, its the atheists & scientists who are open to new concepts & ideas all the time. Each individual scientist tries to come up with a better theory with his unique imagination. They only stick to their old ideas as long as the evidence proves the concept right.
- - - - -
This is truley an opinion worthy further of consideration.
=========================================================

RR ....On the other hand, with all their vision, imagination & creativity, the theists can only come up with one scenario - God created us & the holy book is his word & proof of it!!!
- - - - - - -
Jerami .......
are you sure that ALL theist feel that way ??
====================================================
THIS IS NOT A UNIQUE VISION. Unlike science, Its not something each individual theist comes up with, it is something they were given in their childhood & taught to defend. The Christian theist would only vision Christ while the Muslim theist would only vision Muhammad. In their vision, theres nothing else. Its a dead end. Their mind is caged, their thinking is blindfolded. It has blocked their mental growth, its a blockade for humanity's advancement & growth.
- - - - - -

Do you sometimes feel that your achievements are somewhat limited ?
Is it possible the realm of human achievements are limited regardless of our beliefs?
If you do not ? Then who is decieving who?
==============================================================
RR ...
Vision or imagination when coupled with creativity, expected to provide a new outcome. Imagination & vision is not like something you quote from a book & continue to believe that is true.
- - - - - - -

So do yoy then believe that truth is a matter of perception?
And which side of the fence you are standing on when you precieve it?
=====================================================

& YES, most theists do oppose scientific discovery especially when it starts to questions their faith. i.e. Evolution.

- - - - -

I don't think so .
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  Druid Dudeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Tue faith leads to enlightenment. When you first approach faith, you are blind. As you embrace faith, a light begins within. Once you begin to be confident in your faith, the light brightens, once you have fully come to the fullest measure of faith, you become enlightened. True enlightenment becomes Gnosis (Greek= Knowledge) Full knowledge becomes Logos (Greek=Logic) Full Logic =Full Enlightenment. Your vision is then restored. Blessed be the name of the LORD!
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  AMEN
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  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Amen!
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  getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  In other words, you can believe anything once you become delusional enough.
  
  You call it enlightenment, but it is clearly psychosis.
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Life itself is a state of illusion.
  
  Nothing is as it appears to be.
  
  We can't handle the whole truth of reality.
  Our brains are not designed to handle it all.
  That is why we can only see such a small part of it at a time.
  To insist that "THEY" are wrong Because "THEY" are describing what they see differently than what you see, is delusional.
  
  This may be what Jesus meant when he said the blind are leading the blind.
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  getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  Jesus is an illusion, as well. So why reference him? What's so important about what the hell Jesus said? Your beliefs come shining through with every so called deep thought that you post.
  
  Again, it is my opinion that you want to be wise and willfully ignorant at the same time.
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  What is the source of illusion? or delusion?
  
  We are just actors in someone else's Play.
  We are the product of someones/somethings illusion.
  Therefore everything that is in this dream will prove its true while in the dream state.
  
  I really gotta go collect that final payment for some work I've been doing the last few days.
  Be back later.
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Jeramiposted 13 years ago
qwark wrote ...they must experience the "age-of-reason."
Nothing else would work.
- - - -

Rishy Rich wrote ... True...but I think they don't want to
_____

I don't think that the age of reasoning has seen the light of day in anyone's life that I can see.

When we KNOW that we know the right path??? I then would question IF anything has changed. The age of reasoning must not have gotten here yet.

Thinking out loud here a minute ....

What makes anyone think that the age of reasoning has not come centuries ago??

Maybe we need to come out of that stage in order to go into the next? Just a thought.

Seems like we have been reasoning ourselves into the brink of destruction !?!?!?
Maybe we need to quit doing everything that we have been doing in order for things to fix themselves ?
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Rishy Richposted 13 years ago
... No No NO ! that isn't what I said ! It may be what you received but isn't what I said !

*****

Although absolutely wrong but your words imply it.

... This is truley an opinion worthy further of consideration.

*****

Its actually not an opinion. A scientific discovery usually modifies the existing foundation or completely eradicates previous misconceptions. Modification is a room for change which is present in science, not in religion.

...are you sure that ALL theist feel that way ??

******

Although that line was intended for Abrahamic theists, but it is applicable to all theists at the same time. A theist with all his imagination & creativity would only come up with a single scenario that supports his faith system. His imagination can only support his faith system in a biased way. For a Christian/Muslim, it will always be "God/Allah has created us & the Holy book is his words."

"...Do you sometimes feel that your achievements are somewhat limited ?..."

*******

Of course humans have limitations. We are not perfect like everything else in this universe. In my statement, I have no where mentioned that we are above limitations but because of the theists we are lagging back. But it is also true, that now we have much much less limitations than our ancestors who lived 10000 years ago. Simply because of our knowledge & understanding of life. Eventually we managed to get rid of many types of superstitions, rituals & cultural traits that were creating obstacles for our growth.

Its time to get rid of the existing superstitions & rituals which are still hampering our advancement & growth!

"& YES, most theists do oppose scientific discovery especially when it starts to questions their faith. i.e. Evolution.

- - - - -
I don't think so ."

Can you state a single scientific discovery that you accept but also proves your faith is wrong?
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I have to leave for work now but will try to comment on this when I return home later.
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Jeramiposted 13 years ago
Jerami wrote:
Absolutely !! Educational system can not be ignored.
And the educational system should not ignore the imaginations of our up and coming Einsteins.

Sometimes our "NEW" discoveries come from OLD Ideas. imagination that had previously been rejected or put on the side burner.

Time for me to go to work. Later.
- - - - - - - - - -

skyfire wrote ...
When you come back to forums, don't forget to comment on fantasy stories and burden of proof point.

===================================

What do you want to discuss ? How yester years fantasies have become today's reality ?

How almost anything imaginable is possible?
One mans trash is another mans treasure.
One mans fantasy is another reality. He patents it and becomes rich.
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hanging outposted 13 years ago
There is no point a believer can be convinced their faith is wrong unless, of course it is, just that, wrong.
These are points of wrongness:
a) when the flesh takes over and starts ruling the life and the person stops listening to God.
b) When they lose interest and stop being connected to the vine and being nourished by the vine. In essence when they become disheartened.
c) When they allow their head to persuade them in any number of wrongs. 1) other peoples failures (so how can they not fail)
2) they perceive a wrong doctrine as inspired by God (how could this happen)
3) when the world seems more interesting to them and there are things they want. (Matthew 4 jesus in the wilderness example)

d) When logic wants to rule and faith takes a back seat.

Even then i do not think people ever get convinced, they try to convince themselves. Some atheists are here still trying to convince themselves by saying what they say over and over again. I do not believe the HS ever lets go of any person that God has touched, ever in their lifetime. This is why they fight so hard and ignore so much information and why they tenaciously hang onto whatever justifies their now ungodly position. We can see some people are quite fanatical about how many posts and how much time they spend here, writing quip one liners just to get a small meaningless chuckle and how all the atheists band together to support the other as though they instinctively know what the other needs, support in their denial of the happy moments in God and the need to fill in otherwise wasted years.

Hebrews 10:31 "It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God".
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earnestshubposted 13 years ago
Good to know you are so thoroughly upset about it!

"Thou protesteth too much!"

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  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  He doesn't seem to be upset at all. I am sure you can agree with the post above.
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  An entire rant about what I have written? How much time was spend on that?
  As I said. "Thou protesteth too much."
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  from his email.. not much time at all actually. I liked his frankness and the mortal wounds he dealt to many people in here.
  
  terrific reading... atta boy hanging out
  
  cuz really he showed you that your contradictions were not contradictions at all but sloppy interpretations.
  
  lovely sentence.
  have a nice day
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No doubt you will be able to support your assertions with a correction then?
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skyfireposted 13 years ago
*duh* You can very well understand what my question was. Instead of playing typical word salad, come back to point where you can really understand what are fantasies and when burden of proof chimes in for it.
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  What makes you think that everything about life isn't a fantasy.
  The participants in any fantasy can not imagine anything else being real, other than the one that they are in.
  
  I, being in my fantasy, can not dictate what elements are present in your reality, any more than you can in anyone else's.
  
  To protest that my reality does not exist because it does not agree with your perceptions of yours, is (as someone else likes to say) Delusional.
  
  Every perception of reality does have an exit door way in the back whether we can find it or not.
  
  That probably didn't make sense, haven't had but 1/2 cup of coffee this AM. Still half asleep. Might stay that way all day?
  
  Have to go finish a paint job in a little while.
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skyfireposted 13 years ago
Credibility. We both breathe and are surviving and that's not fantasy. You can easily verify this over period of time. But when you claim something and fail to give evidence and persistent results for this then it is a lie(or hypothesis) and it goes way ahead of fantasy and you just shift burden of proof for it to people who deny your fantasy.

*yawn* check earlier point for credibility. Before you claim anything as fantasy, prove it to me that why it is Reality for you and for the rest of the world or why you choose to live in denial for selective fantasy(err reality).

That is living life in denial. You can't prove your reality and expect rest of the world to believe you ? and then call them delusional because you can't prove your own base and claim just like that ?

Nope. You lack credibility. You can't prove your fantasy and you can't persistently prove your claims , that makes YOU delusional. So when next time you claim something and want to run away by shifting burden of proof, make a note of this in mind that YOU failed to prove your fantasy or so-called reality.

really ? more word salad ? or you can demonstrate this ?

Exactly.
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Jeramiposted 13 years ago
Credibility. We both breathe and are surviving and that's not fantasy. You can easily verify this over period of time. But when you claim something and fail to give evidence and persistent results for this then it is a lie(or hypothesis) and it goes way ahead of fantasy and you just shift burden of proof for it to people who deny your fantasy.
- - - - - - -

Everyone denies the reality of everyone else's fantasy. Unless that part agrees with your own.
----------------------------------------------------------

*yawn* check earlier point for credibility. Before you claim anything as fantasy, prove it to me that why it is Reality for you and for the rest of the world or why you choose to live in denial for selective fantasy(err reality).

- - - - - -

Is your definition of fantasy? anything that disagrees with your perception of "REALITY"
=====================================================

That is living life in denial. You can't prove your reality and expect rest of the world to believe you ? and then call them delusional because you can't prove your own base and claim just like that ?
- - - - - - - -

There you go again.. I didn't call every one ELSES reality a wrong fantasy. I said mine, yours AND everyone's ideas of reality is a fantasy. We are all in that same boat.
That is "n my opinion".
=================================================

Nope. You lack credibility. You can't prove your fantasy and you can't persistently prove your claims , that makes YOU delusional. So when next time you claim something and want to run away by shifting burden of proof, make a note of this in mind that YOU failed to prove your fantasy or so-called reality.

- - - - - -

I agree !! I lack credibility as we all do.
I'm not trying to prove that my fantasy has any more credibility than anyone else's.
Nor does theirs have any more than mine.
========================================================

really ? more word salad ? or you can demonstrate this ?

That probably didn't make sense,

Exactly.
- - - - - -

Again I agree with Ya.
No two fantasies make sense to the other.
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skyfireposted 13 years ago
speak for yourself. Not everyone, it is who you fail to prove your fantasies and assume that it is your reality.

Anything that fails to give proof for it's existence, persistence in observation turns out to be fantasy. This is the simple explanation for fantasy.

Nope. We're not in same boat. Your reality is fantasy for the rest of the world. Because you failed to give proof for it and still persist to claim about it with addition of concept after another.

See ? this is what i call denial. You have no idea how to verify what is reality and fantasy. Then you resort to call what others are living is fantasy and rejects anyone who tells you that your fantasy is just another fantasy and not reality.

*cough* every fantasy is based on some relation to reality.So two can easily clash. Just because you choose to deny something as reality doesn't mean it doesn't make sense.
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  If you say so, Your fantasy is the only true reality.
  For YOU? I agree. That one that you have, is the only true one that you have.
  You should keep it if it works for you.
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  skyfireposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hows that for a christian living in denial and want to knock others down for disturbing their fantasy ? Very amusing indeed. See how you lack credibility ? how you put your views as if they're facts without any valid proof and reference ? and then cover your bias by saying we all lack credibility ? lol. and then resorting to saying that what i have is fantasy and for which you agree. that is height of ignorance and delusion from christian. For which i have to agree. don't you think so ?
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I am attempting to think outside the box.
  I know that I am not going to explain this right! But I'll try.
  
  Lets think on the small scale.
  There are limitations of course , but your beliefs are your reality.
  If you truly believe you can achieve those things you desire; you can!
  They start becoming your reality as soon as you have faith in it, and yourself, and begin working towards that goal.
  If this is true for the smaller things? Where does it stop being true concerning the larger concepts ?
  
  Your life and mine are what we made it.
  Our imagination and beliefs are the foundation on which we focused our efforts and it became so. Just like magic!
  It becomes our reality.
  
  The problem is that everyone else is doing this too.
  In someone else's' reality, they built a cabin where I was going to pitch a tent. Sense we are sharing time and space their reality is sitting on mine.
  
  So I guess you are correct.
  Out reality is not our own, it is dependant upon those of others.
  
  When we have a fantasy, every aspect within that fantasy is real to us. As long as it stays within the fantasy.
  We are real as long as we stay within the boundaries of the fantasy that we are in.
  
  I think that we should expand our definition of what a fantasy is, ... in reality.
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  skyfireposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That's not thinking outside the box, that's making stories and not giving proof and then shifting the burden of proof.
  
  Nope. My belief is based on verifiable fact. Is your fantasy verifiable ?
  
  Get real. You can't get wings no matter how you wish or believe in fairy jesus.
  
  Heard of word "delusion" ?
  
  Imagination connected to fact and reality is what we call hypothesis which is what we use for technology and science while exploring this universe. When this imagination claims something that is non-existent and then we go by faith for it and resist to give proof then that is delusion. far from reality.
  
  People who are ready to prove their part of reality fit into facts section. what about you ?
  
  In someone else's' reality, they built a cabin where I was going to pitch a tent. Sense we are sharing time and space their reality is sitting on mine.
  
  Something which remains unobserved and unproved but still some people make stories on it, also fits in fantasy.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  NOPE. its the same as atheists do to christians. We don't have to be door mats just because we believe in peace. How is arguing not peaceful lol. jerami said if you want to keep those views and they work for you then fine, keep them..
  Then you tear a strip up one side and down the other for him saying he doesn't care what belief you have lol.
  ... as they slip and slide on the floating scale....
  we have our facts.... and they are built on a solid rock.
  in time, all will see.
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  qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Brother:
  Pls present us with one 'PEACEFUL" fact related to the history of your chosen religion i.e. monotheism.
  Monotheists are wonderful at providing "lip service" in ref to peace and love, until, in FACT, the deadly history of their beliefs flies up into their face.
  They then dance around the barn creating inane biblical excuses or revert to adhominem attack.
  I tire of trite religious BS and those who offer lip service in ref to its value to mankind...but, they outnumber me! So, all I can do is sit back and marvel at the depth of thier abject ignorance...sighhhh!
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Lets assume that you are a white man.
  
  Would you say that is fair for me to lame you for every atrocity that white men are guilty of over the past 2000 years.
  You have wiped out how many civilizations of Africans, Japanese, and American Indians.
  You as a white man bear all to the guilt of the atrocities committed by white men!!!!!!!!
  
  YOU should be ashamed? LOL
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I am ashamed Jerami. I am ashamed of my inability to prevent my "people" from still committing atrocities.
  
  I cannot change the color of my skin, but I can certainly dispense with the Nationalistic and Religious reasons for wiping out these "inferior," beings and cultures.
  
  So - I have thrown out the nonsensical belief in an Invisible Super Being who Saves The Queen, yet Murders Millions of Heathens.
  
  Yet still you defend this concept and refuse to learn from our past mistakes. Why is that? Why is this so important to you? Much, much more important than acknowledging atrocities committed by your ancestors as being something to avoid now and in the future.
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  skyfireposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  NOPE. Atheists gather resources from science to disaprove christians. It's christians who twist words of their scrupture and get pwned with creationism and other pseudo claims. Empirical evidence separates YOU and ME.
  
  What makes you peaceful when you entered in religion and politics forums ?
  
  Because you're insisting on something without proof and then ask us to shut up for not going in with your line of reasoning- that something exists without empirical proof which is making love and peace stories in your life. that's Christianity attack and argument for you, and want to call it peaceful ? i call it attack of deluded animals.
  
  it's not about keeping them. facts are to be accepted as is. care to come up with empirical evidence for your fantasies ?
  
  When it comes to proof you don't play with BS, or do you ? i can haz LOL ?
  
  YOU don't have facts. You have deluded reasoning. Try coming up with empirical evidence then we'll see what is built on solid rock. and still saying 'we'll see", for what you're waiting for ?resurrection of helpless kitten who died on cross ?
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Jeramiposted 13 years ago
Mark wrote ...
I am ashamed Jerami. I am ashamed of my inability to prevent my "people" from still committing atrocities.
- - - - - - -

ME ..
By your statement; "my people" I hope that you are speaking of the human race.
I am not ashamed that I do not have the power or authority to make people DO AS I SAY.
Sad that people do the things that they do to their fellow man ..SURE!
================================================
Mark wrote ... I cannot change the color of my skin, but I can certainly dispense with the Nationalistic and Religious reasons for wiping out these "inferior," beings and cultures.

So - I have thrown out the nonsensical belief in an Invisible Super Being who Saves The Queen, yet Murders Millions of Heathens.
- - - - - - -

To argue that a persons character is as it is proposed
and his existence are two different things that you seem to have trouble separating.
You do not accept GODS behavior so you reject the possibility of his existence.
With that logic ...
The Jews should have thrown out their belief in Hitler and and avoided a lot of Paine
=====================================================
Mark wrote ...
Yet still you defend this concept and refuse to learn from our past mistakes. Why is that?
- - - - - -
I do defend my beliefs as do you.
And I have learned as much from "OUR" past as I should.
I can not change the past actions of our ancestors nor the current and future actions of my neighbors.
This is why there was so much conflict before, ...
Someone like you and me trying to change the world into what WE think that it should be.
This is the #1 lesson that we should have learned but didn't.
========================================================

Mark wrote ... Why is this so important to you?
- - - - -
Exactly what do you address? My beliefs ? Which one ? I have many.
I can ask the same of you.
=================================================
Mark wrote ... Much, much more important than acknowledging atrocities committed by your ancestors as being something to avoid now and in the future.
- - - - -

ME ...
I can only do what I can do.
And that is to govern my behavior, and enter into discussion with those in my immediate environment that I can have influence over.
Hard debate never avoided wars but propagated them.
So you see; seems that no one learns from the mistakes of our forefathers.
We just substitute one mistake for another. While someone else picks up the ones that we have discarded.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Ah - semantics, obfuscation and incomprehensible formatting. You have not answered any of my questions have you Jerami? Well done on avoiding answering my direct questions. I thought you thought that was rude to do that? Oh? Only when I do it? I see.
  
  Oh well - as long as you are certain I have not learned anything by rejecting religion and nationalism and suggesting you might do the same in an attempt to avoid the mistakes of the past.
  
  Dear me. Still - as long as you defend God - right?
  
  I wonder if I will ever get you to understand that my position is only necessary if you are pushing yours?
  
  Stop pushing yours - We have nothing to argue about do we? Get it?
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  As they say at the turkey shoot .. Stop pocking your head up and I'll stop shooting at it.
  I see how you think. Just like the Church did during the Crusades.
  If they had gone into hiding and the church wouldn't have had problem with their existence.
  
  I am so sorry that you didn't see an answer in my reply.
  I can't help that.
  
  I gotta go to work now Later.
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  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Now that is funny
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Extremely funny. But mostly sad.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Jerami - you are the church. You are the one making the statement, and I am the one asking you not to keep pushing it. And - I know - that you do not care how much strife you believers cause by insisting on pushing your belief - it is really my fault for pushing my head up as you shoot anything that does, by asking you to stop. Right?
  
  A very apt metaphor really. You are the one on the Turkey shoot - I am just getting in your line of fire.
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Jeramiposted 13 years ago
If I were the turkey ... and I saw a sign that says ...
turkey shoot 1000 yards ahead ??????????

I wouldn't be carrying a sign into that camp that says
EAT BEEF ! Unless I was wanting to draw attention to myself. And then protest the gun fire makes too much noise.

I am not the church, just an individual that doesn't believe in most of the things that YOU don't believe in.

You protest because I have the same right to speak as you do, just because I wear a different color shirt than you wear.

You say that it is I causing strife for not wearing your colors!
And you do not see any similarity in your actions and those in which you protest ?
Another sad thing to add to the list. SAD indeed!
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It was an apt metaphor Jerami. You are on a Turkey shoot and I am the one asking you to stop.
  
  Now you tell me I will get shot for asking.
  
  Yet - I am the bad guy?
  
  Like I said - You don't jam your ridiculous beliefs at anyone, I don't jam my irrational lack of belief in an invisible nonentity that you insist on pushing. See how that works? No pushing - no argument. See who is doing the pushing?
  
  Oh yes - me - for not believing. Right.
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I can just imagine you at the shopping mall going up to everyone that is talking about something that you have no interest in; telling them to SHUDDUP !!
  
  I'd like to be a fly on the wall when that happens.
  reply report

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