Does God exist?

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Gordon544posted 13 years ago
A question, probably asked many times, but I will ask it again to garner an idea of religious belief...

....Does God exist?

I think we have all been through enough pain, seen enough suffering to seriously doubt whether there is such a thing as God....what's the concensus...? His he for real?

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  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes God exist.
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  prayersposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I agree. God definately exists!
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  qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  ...what is this god thing you speak of?
  There is no defintion of "it" in any monotheistic scripture except in the form of opinion and conjecture.
  Before I can entertain your question, I must know what "it" is.
  The question cannot be answered by educated "thinkers," until "it" is "literally" defined.
  If "it" can't literally defined, then the question is meaningless.
  Qwark
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  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Too late for prays, Jesus talks more about hell than Heaven
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  Druid Dudeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  uhhh...Sorry to call you on this Castle. Read what God created in Genesis, no where is a place called hell created. Hell is created by us. Look around. When God was finished he said it was all good. Don't you believe him? You say you do, but your understanding says you shouldn't spread BS. Which is what you are doing. GET IT? Jealous stupidity can blind. Don't retreat into darkness. I am the door, beyond is the Light. Open the door with your key. It is inside you, right next to the Grail.
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  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  qwark
  
  I don’t want to come off arrogance but since you have presented many negative untruths about me on this forum, It’s SHOW TIME!!!
  
  If you think all education boils down to second and third hand me down academic teaching, you are narrowly and sadly mistaken. Show me anything you have achieved at a world class standard or a great contribution to humanity. I’m no better or worst than the next guy and that include you, if that offend your ego, so be it. Very few artist of any kind in the world can say they had a professional and successful sound artist life for more than 35 years as I’ve had. Before the arts I was a world class athlete in swimming and wrestling. Won 5 sand sculpture world championships, including 172 international artist awards plus 21 Natural structure World Records among 6 continents. Traveled 94 countries worked with top organization in the world such as Clients Museum of Civilization, Walt Disney, MGM, IBM, in Theme parks, Museums, Films, and Festivals world wide. Covered by top Multi media world wide. Taught fine arts at several international workshops events and at a few art colleges’ Coach or train dozens of artists to several artist world Championship including 3 women, head to head with men. Most delighted in raw pioneering a few new artist industries, the art work on my hubs, was created by me.
  
  Show me your goods, or drop many of these labels and negative comments.
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  qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Castle:
  If all you have offered is true, congrats!!!
  Talent has nothing to do with the question: "Does god exist."
  I have presened no untruths! How'd ya come up with that decision?
  I just tell it as I see it. I offer my thoughts honestly and bluntly. They are just my thoughts.
  The way you responded this time, in a way that has nothing to do with the forum question, is proof to me that you can't/won't offer an answer using reason and or logic...or because English is not your native language, you don't understand the question.
  What is it that you want from me? My life has been dedicated to me and mine. I couldn't give a rats a** about contributing to humanity in any way but to bring my son up to be able to cope with life on a planet that will take his life in a "New-York-minute" if he screws up.
  We all have differing talents, aptitudes and thoughts.
  Those who allow myth and superstition to guide their lives, have historically, proven themselves to be a deadly bunch.
  If you fit this bill, then I have to base my understanding of you. on the history of your beliefs.
  Today? there are thousands of monotheistic sects that will kill you in the name of this imagined god thing. Believers in it, swear I'm wrong, but their history is indicative of them "speaking-with-forked-tongue."
  Approx 1/2 of the human population proclaims the existance of that which they can only Imagine. To me, they represent the lesser evolved of an infant human species.
  Qwark
  
  I'm heading for the gym. Chat with ya when I get back in a couple hours.
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  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I do not subscribe to any monotheistic sects or belong to any group. My idea's of God is personal and it works, that pretty well sums it all up.
  
  I married a Mexican megalomaniac who totally brainwashed my daughter and used religion as a tool in many of our court battles. The only thing I could do is send my daughter love and be a good example. It turns out she is following many of my foot steps to be an artist, and she gets, if you do not love what you do, you can not master life.
  
  She moving in with me to learn more, what an honor, I wrote a hub on her.
  
  Good luck with your son, he could do better than just cope, he may surprise and thrive
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  qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks Castle:
  My son has "blessed" me with 2 wonderful grandkids and he has owned and operated his own business for many, many yrs. I couldn't be prouder.
  My heart goes out to you and your daughter.
  I hope she turns out to be a strong woman who does not need to depend upon any man.
  Fingers crossed for you and her!
  Qwark :-)
  Thanks for "chatting" with me.
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  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That's more like it
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  ShortStoryposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  What's your world class wrestling background?
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  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Was on the Alberta University amateur wrestling team in the 70s. Did International tournament in many part North America, and Centro America. Beat two former Olympian too qualified for trails to the Olympic team. Found my true desire in the arts rather than sports.
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  ShortStoryposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Is Alberta University D1, or do you have a different system in Canada?
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  ShortStoryposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I guess I should just come right out and say that doesn't sound like "world class" to me.
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  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I beat both Olympians who medaled at the Olympics. How much higher can you go other than going to the Olympians, in which I turned down?
  
  Pro wrestling, not real?
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  ShortStoryposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Canada is not exactly a wrestling powerhouse, and 'I coulda gone to the Olympics' does not equal world class (or pass the sniff test). The key adjective in your first account was 'former' olympians.
  
  Look, I'm sure you were very good but that just doesn't sound like 'world class' to me. I'm sure you don't need my affirmation to feel good about yourself anyway.
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  qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Castle:
  Oh yes I find your comments to fit those of the unlearned, religious bigot.
  May I say that, without you suggesting I be banned?
  I'm just being bluntly truthful.
  What you said in this comment: " Too late for prays, Jesus talks more about hell than Heaven"
  is proof of what I say.
  No one "knows" what this jesus said. NO ONE!
  All who say: "jesus said" have not done their homework and are speaking as uneducated bigots.
  The NT was not ready for promulgation for almost 300 yrs after this jesus alledgedly died. It is naught but corrupted stories passed down thru hundreds of generations.
  The NT is just heresay. It is not credible.
  I know immediately if a "hubber" has done his homework by his responses about this jesus guy.
  Qwark
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  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Qwark
  
  I strongly believe in freedom of speech, I've been ban for it in two cities and one country for it. My skin is so thick, why in the world would I suggest to anyone, for you to be ban.
  
  What make me Religious bigot, because I don't follow the lord. My brother is a pastor I am force to do my home work and interested in getting a closer understanding of him. Belonging to no group makes me non bias.
  
  The actual word Hell appears more frequently than the actual word heaven
  
  There are over 162 references in the Christian Scriptures (New Testament) that warn of Hell. Over 70 of these references are attributed to Jesus.
  The word Hell appears frequently in: Mark (3 occurrences), Matthew (12), Luke (3), Acts (2), Revelation (4). Jesus should be the greatest soul winner of all time.
  
  However, more souls end up in hell than in heaven. I can’t post all of them, and don’t believe me, check out for your self.
  ,
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  qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Castle:
  You just made my point to a much greater degree than I could have.
  I agree with your attitude toward freedom of speech. TY
  Qwark
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  gingerkaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Oh, He exists, creation itself screams it out. Stop and think logically, could our universe just appear out of nothing and from nothing. But God, if He truly is God, could out of nothing speak it into being.
  
  On an individual level though, I have seen way too many atheists seemingly make a death bed conversion. There is an old lyric from a song" I know there is no heaven, but I pray there is no Hell" that basically sums it all up
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Really? How many atheist's death beds have you been at? LOLOLOLOLOL
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  hanging outposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  as many as you
  But the christian death beds and funerals are funner
  LOLOLOLOLOL
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Just stop and think Ray - it is logikal there MUST be a god innit. Cain't be nuthin else. Hell is reel.
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  I've weighed all the evidence available, including the scripture of many different religions and still come to the same conclusion.
  
  It's all lies.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Total garbage. And the ones pushing this nonsense do not even understand how to get the good stuff that is there out. Pathetic.
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hey Mark, I'm not even sure there is a word in any language that comes close to describing them. Apparently, the ones that are great descriptors for religious people, seem to be insults, but then again, you could be nice to religious person and they would still think you're insulting them.
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  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It’s hard to be so nice to them, if one becomes too nice, he become stupid.
  
  Kindness is a better word.
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  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  schoolgirl
  
  I prefer more kindness in the world than more religion or more politics.
  If someone insults me, it’s most likely it’s the truth about my weakness that I have. If it’s an untrue insult, I can ignore it or have them Clearfield it more to understand it better.
  
  It’s kinder for me to work more on balancing my weakness than over working my strengths.
  
  Very nice people have been known to do very bad things.
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  schoolgirlforrealposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I don't want to get involved,
  But I picked up on an interesting thought here and correct me if I'm wrong, but it "appears" that because some people believe in God and are "called religious" that makes all of them...
  
  "I'm not even sure there is a word in any language that comes close to describing them. Apparently, the ones that are great descriptors for religious people, seem to be insults, but then again, you could be nice to religious person and they would still think you're insulting them"
  
  Which you mean to say--in other words, whether a person is not sure about God or just believes in God in a general sense maybe, that he exists but they don't live according to any rules let's say, (excluding the people who believe in God and try very hard to imitate the holy life of Jesus) that they are the type of people who get insulted alot? --hmm maybe because they are standing up for what others don't believe, or because others don't like rules like the 10 commandments so they feel threatened ...??
  
  and you "could be nice to a religious person and they would still think you're insulting them"??
  
  Again, does the word "religious" necessarily mean someone is fanatical --perhaps they generally believe in a God, but don't practice faith.....
  
  Are you implying
  that if someone believes in God--which many scientists do and brilliant scholars and people with high IQ's and inventors, world leaders, etc
  that they are ignorant?
  Because they are a believer that God exists from the evidence of nature let's say, that they are too stupid to know if you are insulting them or not???
  
  OR,
  
  Perhaps you are Generalizing.
  In that case
  Generalizing is not really logical or correct is it?
  If one person likes blue and so do 10 others
  but that one person kills someone the 10 others will too?
  
  What is generalizing but a petty easy way to insult.
  
  I rest my case--and I think it's a pretty good one if I say so myself
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  Appletreedealsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Your confidence in the validity of your opinion is clear to see. But what is unclear is whether it is your belief that there is or can be no God? Or that it is the legitimacy of Organized religion that can be denied?
  
  If it is the former, I don't have the confidence to state a firm opinion one way or the other - the probability that I just don't know what I don't know is too high, and I don't like to be wrong.
  
  If it is the later - I think it is a tool that is purposely designed to benefit the users, more than those it is applied to, in the best case. In the worst case - its purpose is obscene.
  
  GA
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Sure there can be a god. Why not? I am open to the infinite number of possible gods - all it need to do is express it self clearly. I am absolutely certain that the poorly defined god of the bible does not exist, and have researched it's origins enough to understand it is a metaphor - not an actual being.
  
  Organized religion is total garbage. I understand it better than the regurgitators. Obscene is a good word to define it.
  
  I am always right. I am the Righteous atheist after all.
  
  And I surely do love it when I get told not believing is the same as believing.
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  hanging outposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  oh that hub, lol.
  You stomped into a room of christians yelled, "there is a problem here", interrupted everything christian going on, You continue to stomp into dfferent rooms and "create your problem" then you decide that you are better than them and then you write hubs in a ego-centric way that only depicts a super huge sized ego and then you proclaim yourself messiah.
  
  and you say we are the aggressive ones: "Organized religion is total garbage. I understand it better than the regurgitators. Obscene is a good word to define it." real peaceful, lots of room for debate there. Thanks for sharing such well put wisdom. Just what is a regurgitator? Are you talking about those who actually quote something other than themselves?
  
  Sounds like something is wrong where you are at
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  Druid Dudeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I am also Wovoka. Google it. They have been expecting me. Can we spell THEIVES, LIARS, FALSE PROPHETS, FALSE TEACHERS, TRASH PEOPLE> WHITE MAN- BLACK HEART. Now, can we say: LAST STAND...as in GEORGE ARMSTRONG CUSTER. Welcome to the Little Big Horn. My name is Crazy Horse. Ask any Native American. If they don't already know. The Ghost Dance is done. We are back.
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  hanging outposted 13 years agoin reply to this
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  qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Gingerka:
  What has "logic" got to do with this god thing?
  You have to re-think and re-reply 'cause this comment has no meaning at all..
  All you are offering is a "dime-a-dozen" opinion.
  Give it another shot...ok?
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  Ed Kaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  you mean because someone does not agree with you that you are smarter then she is , better yet why does she have to re-think and you do not. your logic button is broken
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  Ed Kaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  i also noted that her comment on creation, was simply ignored, yet it does have merit
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Actually, her comment was not addressed, not because it has merit, but because it lack any rationalize thought process.
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  Ed Kaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  if it has no merit then where did the original material for the universe come from??
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  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Good question
  
  The most incomprehensible thing about the Universe, is that it's comprehensible.
  
  I think Man is not yet capable of answers that question yet. We still know very little about our own earth.
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  oceansnsunsetsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Excellent question Ed.
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  And this statement shows nothing more than irrationality at it's best. Yes, Qwark is strange, even unique in nature, but with regards to a god, he would prefer it be defined, before it's discussed.
  
  How is that in any way, shape or form, not smart?
  
  If there is not definition, legitimate definition, then it isn't worthy of a discussion. I would thought that would be obvious to almost anyone, but I guess not.
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  qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  TY Cags ( I think) lol :-)
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  oceansnsunsetsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Cagsil, It seems you are suggesting that God needs to be defined before he can even be discussed. I am not sure why that is. I don't know know you or if you are an atheist. I have known many atheists over the years and they feel similar to you. When it is discussed, they want god to not only be defined, but be defined according to a held materialistic or physicalistic philosophy only. That is putting a form of restrictions of what god could be, and thus taking the easy way of ruling a god out. I am not saying that you do this at all, just sharing my experience. I do appreciate you sharing your beliefs and opinions though. They are interesting, and I just think that discussing a possible cause for the effect in the world is a very worthy discussion. Looking at many atheists on these boards, they do too! Massive commenting going on, which I thin is great.
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  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Agreed!
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  qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Ed ka;
  lolol...wow! Pls check the English defintion of logic, mull it over for a a few minutes until the light above your head comes on...then, unabashedly, (if thats possible) re-write that comment with an understanding of the word logic in mind....ok?
  I'll give ya another chance...go for it.
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  Ed Kaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  thank goodness I do not need your permission for another chance, i find it very funny that you feel the need to denigrate those who disagree with your premise.
  out side of nature itself I cannot prove the existence of nor can you prove that God does not exist. It is a point of faith. God has proven to me that He IS. That is sufficient for me
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  qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Ed Ka:
  This is not to be taken as an insult. It's just a helpful suggestion.
  
  I don't think I asked for "proof" of this god thing...in fact, I know I didn't.
  It may be your reading and comprehension abilities that are causing us problems.
  The comment you just wrote, has nothing to do with my response to you.
  Take your time. If the words are too big, I suggest an online dictionary.
  Now, lets get back to this god thing and logic, ok? After you check the definition of "logic" I'd like to know how you can possibly, use it when referring to this god thing.
  Can ya clear that up for me? ty
  Qwark
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  Ed Kaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  obviously you are unable to read and utilize the printed word. You pretend to be intelligent but prove yourself to be of modest intellect and no wisdom (you might want to check the original meaning of the word wisdom, lest you think that I an dissing you). But as I know that you already believe that you know what the meaning is, you wont check it out. Regardless of the dictionary, the terms "logic" and "God" are not incompatible, though you would like to believe different. If in your opinion I am found to be lacking in intellectual ability then I guess I will just have to suffer.
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  qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Ed Ka:
  "... the terms "logic" and "God" are not incompatible,"
  Easy to say. I ask you to give me a "logical" reason for that illogical comment.
  Can ya do it?
  Naw, ya can't! :-)
  I'm off to the gym. That'll give ya plenty of time to "dance-it-around-the-barn."
  Will read your "wisdomly" (is that a word?...lol) reply when I get back.
  Qwark
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  Druid Dudeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Knowledge, step by step, not skipping steps, leads to wisdom, Step by step, noy skipping. Wisdom leads to LOGOS= LOGIC/Greek. Logic leads to the Grail. Your journey is nearing it's end. Dave Barnett has come forward as First Contact. Quantum Leap has arrived. Evolution is real. Next step is: Elimination of the garbage cluttering your sub-conscious, This allows the true to be seen, by your own mind, in your own body. There you will find, buried at the very bottom of the misinformation. The Holy Grail. I am a Grail Knight. Iam the bearer of the Key which opens the book. Come and see. Read the Message by David Barnett.
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  Druid Dudeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  " If someone says, He is here! Go not, to see. If someone tells you, He is over there! Do not listen." The Bible. If someone says: I am HERE! Then you know that the lie has been found, for He that says this, is He who has found the lie. To find the lie, first, one must know the truth. Death is a LIE! We pass from the Earth to that which lies beyond, in full knowledge.
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  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hell is not good enough for me.
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  ceciliabeltranposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  to quote temple grandin " where does it go?"
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  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I think in picture images like her.
  Concept may be lower form of imagination, and imagination is a poor substitute for experience. On earth your knowledge has limits but your imagination dose not.
  
  If you have not experience an afterlife, you do not known until your ego self has manifest the experience. So mankind is not capable of knowing.
  
  I can only imagine an all loving God would not punish people worst than the crime.
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  ceciliabeltranposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I find any forum that has G-d, the word on it tends to spiral down to metaphoric ramblings.
  Not that I abhor metaphors, its just when it is confused with plain words that makes it frustrating to get a single coherent discussion going.
  
  Also we are all on earth, even our imaginations...they may not be of earth but they are all on earth.
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  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  ceciliabeltran
  
  I see you now specializes in Ancient Mystical wisdom applied to daily life.
  I subscribe much to Taoism, dose that seem like rambling to you?
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  Ruben Riveraposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Wow talk about a big head, get a grip on it or it will float away.
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  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Ed Ka, Your point of truth is very clear.
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  if god created everything, he/she/it doesn't seem to be involved personally. All the years I was a christian and believed, I never saw god, never had prayers answered etc.
  There's a TV evangelist that took millons from the mob for supposedly "healing" them on the spot; when he had cancer, he booked into a private hospital for treatment. So the evangelists don't believe either - they're in for the money & ego trip
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  ceciliabeltranposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  yes...but not in the way you think. it is not he, it is not she, it is not it...so hence we use the word G-d.
  
  but since it is a recurrent theme in global culture, it is simply talking about something real in our consciousness that we have no words for.
  
  Is there order in the universe? This is the real question. And the answer to that is, once again...yes but not in the way you think.
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  Druid Dudeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  GENE SIS (SIS) is Cadeucis -Google it. SIS is Double Helix. DNA
  UNI VERSE (One Verse) Genesis. Whoa. Heavey Dude! Way cool.
  Man began his walk away from ignorence during an interglacial period.
  Quantum Leap=Sudden jump in technology which increases Man's knowledge. Women got smarter first. Amazons. Enslaved the menfolk. Smarter people do that to those they consider "beneath" them. Alpha and Omega is the "Continuing Story of Bungalow Bill" I am not raising myself up. I am a messenger. Don't confuse the messenger with He who sent him.
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  ceciliabeltranposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  hmmm....
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  Ruben Riveraposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I don't think it's a he/she concept.
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  qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Ruben:
  What is "it?"
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  ceciliabeltranposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "God is a metaphor for that which trancends all levels of intellectual thought. It's as simple as that."
  -Joseph Campbell
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  qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Cecilia:
  Isn't that just an unworthy opinion? Of course it is!
  But then. opinion is all that's available, so yours is as good a guess as anyones...lol :-)
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  ceciliabeltranposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  true
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  Stump Parrishposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  god exists in the mind of a lot of people. It exists no where else. Those who have no ability to deal with reality will always seek refuge in their minds. The human mind is the only one capable of an imagination and some simply haven't out grown the need for supernatural explanations for every facet of their lives. The truly dangerous ones are those who feel that their delusions give them the right to force the rest of the planet to live according to their dream world rules. These same people refuse to walk under a ladder in order to maintain the staus quo of the universe. They will aviod a black cat and feel the need to throw spilled salt over their shoulders to ward off evil spirits. Explain the rationality of this kind of delusion to me and I will stop complaining abourt weak minded fools. Well not really but I thought I would at least make an effort to act a little retarded. Figured at least three morons would think better of me.
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  PhoenixVposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Do you mean, is God existing?
  
  Exist is a word used to denote finite things. For instance all of the people replying to this "didn't exist" a billion years ago. They wont exist a billion years in the future. They never chose to exist, they cant empirically show that they are any more than deterministic electrochemical reactions. What they consider as "themselves" has no substance nor does it last but a fleeting moment and all within temporal parameters.
  
  Even if they believe they exist as energy. Human beings are just deterministic entropy waiting to happen. Human beings are "existence challenged". Their alleged existence comes and goes with time and place and at its core can't be shown any more than qualia or similar.
  
  For a human being to consider whether there is an "existing" intelligent being that concurrently creates or created this reality, they might consider what the word "exist" actually means, first.
  
  A hypothetical creator of time and space, may exist in a way that actually means something.
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  PhoenixVposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Part 2
  
  ....Does God exist?
  
  I think we have all been through enough pain, seen enough suffering to seriously doubt whether there is such a thing as God....what's the consensus...? His he for real?
  
  ----------------------------------------------------------------
  
  To reply to the second part or premise : I believe similarly to Leibniz's best of all possible worlds.
  
  OR:
  
  I think we have all been through enough pleasure and awe at every waking moment and at each miracle of each breath we take, also to behold the beauty of reality and life and each other to seriously entertain the idea of God.
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  oceansnsunsetsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Well said, that is beautiful, and makes sense. We can't be so picky to only ever want life to be perfect and full of perfect moments. Living and breathing and thinking are amazing things! There is that idea that we may not even know what beauty and love and really living is if not for their opposites. Better question might be, could a god, if he/she/it exists have a REASON that the negative parts of life are allowed for a time? Could there be a cause and effect there?
  
  Even better question may be, what makes us think there shouldn't be any suffering at all, where did the idea of "perfect" come from anyway? Was there ever a perfect world, and could there be again one day, and how can we know these things at all? How does a perfect creation NOT be allowed the freedom to do evil or good. Forced robotic "goodness" isn't a good thing in anyone's book.
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  PhoenixVposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Well said points. If everything was good, what would we compare it to? If all was light, I cant compare nor choose darkness. It seems we have an ability to perceive duality that may and then againm may not exist. We "presume" it does.
  
  Why is there suffering ? Why is there "is" : or anything at all? Why do we assume there is "this or the other" anyway?
  
  Its seems the "perception of duality" "enables a lot of choice". almost like it was designed that way.
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  oceansnsunsetsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yep, what we do observe daily (no matter what we believe) seems to have clear cut elements of design. That "connect" between us, our thoughts, and what is all around us. What is sufficient cause for THAT clear cut effect? If we don't care for that question, are we in a sense suggesting such things need no cause that is sufficient for the effect? Isn't that bad science?
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  oceansnsunsetsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That makes complete sense to me, all that above and concluding with this interesting thought,
  
  "A hypothetical creator of time and space, may exist in a way that actually means something."
  
  Good science and thinking takes into account cause and effect and in this case origins. What could be a sufficient cause for the effect of "all of humanity and the universes."
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  oceansnsunsetsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Gordon, I think what you are suggesting has been a problem tossed around for centuries by the greatest philosophers ever known to man. That is, does the problem of pain and suffering justify a true doubting of the possibility of an existence of a God.
  
  One would need to first present a case where one is convinced that its logical to doubt God could exist BECAUSE there is pain and suffering in the world. It doesn't really follow at all that because there is pain and suffering, that therefore there must not be a God.
  
  That really is just sharing one's personal beliefs about what "said god" should or shouldn't do with his creation in regards to their suffering. In other words, its not a good argument to say that there likely isn't a God because we do observe pain in the world. I mean, its not logical or scientific, and merely an assertion, or an opinion. Thanks for sharing yours.
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  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I fully agree.
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  Rosie2010posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, most definitely God exists. I believe and as the song goes...
  
  "I Believe" by Tom Jones
  
  I believe for every drop of rain that falls
  A flower grows,
  I believe that somewhere in the darkest night
  A candle glows,
  I believe for everyone who goes astray,
  Someone will come to show the way,
  I believe, I believe.
  
  I believe above the storm a smallest prayer
  Will still be heard,
  I believe that someone in the great somewhere
  Hears every word,
  Every time I hear a newborn baby cry,
  Or touch a leaf, or see the sky,
  Then I know why,
  I believe.
  
  Every time I hear a newborn baby cry,
  Or touch a leaf, or see the sky,
  Then I know why,
  I believe.
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  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hi Rosie, That song is truthful and beautiful.
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  Onusonusposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  If God did not exist then none of us would either. There would be nothing to create us.
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  Schmeagalposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "God is the Word." The Word is His Law. It is also His proof to us He exists. Because, "He is always right." What is "right" equates to "life." What is not ends in death. (The "unforgivable sin" is the one that kills you). The Word is His venue to us. Filter all through the Law and you will find truth, freedom and life. Ignore it and be enslaved and treated like cattle.
  
  For a truly faith building experience go to: "Ivan Panin's Bible Numerics."
  
  Ivan has found something that the chances of existing in the first chapter of Genesis alone would be about ten trillion to one. Absolutely fascinating.
  
  Peace to all.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  If faith requires this to build it - surely it is not faith at all? If faith has any basis in "odds-against happening" - it is not faith, it is probability.
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  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Schmeagal, Yes indeed!
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  davidwilliumposted 13 years agoin reply to this
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  kirstenblogposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  This is not true, there is no evidence for the existance of god, that is the whole point of faith. Might want to try getting some?
  
  Oh and this is from someone who has that faith that there is a God.
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  it's claimed many gods exist - many different religions/superstitions claiming existence of god(s) and they all think they're right!
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  Sword of Fireposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That which is Spirit, and that which is Consciousness are becoming OneThe straight line in opposite directions is true only outside the Euclidian concept. Our concept of truth, in Science and Spirit are closing, forming a circle, twisted by the hand of the Spirit into an 8. Symbol of eternity, tied in the middle with a Gordian Knot. Welcome to Day ONE.
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  shahadat73posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes... He exist. If we just compare the human creations with human themselves, we will be able to find the similarity - existence of God. Now the question is 'one or more' ?!!
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  Jake Gene Barnesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No.
  
  This "God" character - most likely - doesn't exist.
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  yolanda yvetteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  God exists. I'm not talking about all these other 'little g' gods. There is a real God.
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  TheRaptorClawposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Well it depends on your religon but i believe God exists. How do you think the world was made?
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Cagsilposted 13 years ago
No!
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Mark Knowlesposted 13 years ago
LOL
Of course not.
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  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  ?Wait a minute
  
  Leaving the Religious one-sidedness thing out of this concept of God's existence
  
  The World and Universe is 99% unknown to each and every one of us, so it’s impossible for anyone of us to prove God dose not exist.
  
  What if everyone is God and everything is God
  
  If God being everyone, coincide with an all loving attitude that really matters?
  
  Remember God is just a word, its the attitude that matters.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Oh, OK - so no one kills for god?
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  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That's right, no good reason to kill, unless maybe you’re trapped on a mountain with group of people staving to death with nothing to eat, picks out the fat one.
  
  Still I can't imagine of running out of idea's to kill someone, not even a hamster
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Ron Montgomeryposted 13 years ago
Yes I do. Thanks for asking.
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  rotlposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  LOL! Best answer ever.
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Well duh! How could God's answer NOT be the best? We'll talk later, I'm gonna go watch Oprah.
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coolbreezeposted 13 years ago
You can only answer that question yourself Its an interesting one at that. Check this out though to me. Yes to me many Atheists are more spiritual than professed Christens. My one example of this on Hubpages would be Mark Knowles.

He tells it like it is. He is straight up no BS. I find him refreshing because he is an Atheist and I am as far from that as you can get in my book. But I see him as more spiritual than many of the bible thumpers. These type of people are fascinating to me. He doesnt believe in God and doesnt really know me except on hub pages and will tell me that I am full of it when he thinks that I am.

Sort of like how God does to some people He! he! Love that guy! Knowles and his not so silent partner that he doesnt believe in. ;-) Hi Mark ;-)
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  qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Coolbreeze:
  I'm not an atheist, agnostic, deist or a believer in mythical divinities.
  I agree with Mark...totally!
  I'm a seeker, I find "unbelievers" to be logical and reasonable when discussing whatever this god thing may be.
  I find "believers" to be irrational, bigoted and closed minded.
  In fact, "primitive" in their thinking processes.
  Qwark
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  same here
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  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  qwark
  
  Do you find me to be irrational, bigoted and closed minded?
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  coolbreezeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I have never been called irrational, bigoted or closed minded. I find your statements to be reflective of your own conscience. My thinking process is primitive as is yours if not we would not be having such a silly conversation.
  
  You really cannot pigeon hole believers and non believers in any mode of thinking. That would be irrational, bigoted and closed minded on your part.
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  qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Coolbreeze:
  Of course I can!
  Yes, I do judge. My "conscience" does reflect my understanding of the "primitive" mindset of believers in myth and superstition.
  This 'silly" conversation, as you put it, has, as it's intent, a definitive reason. That reason is to, hopefully, raise the awareness of "fence sitters," of the damnably, hellacious history of the 3 major monotheisms.
  Oh yes, the length and depth of my 40 yrs of study have enlightened me in ref to making judgements.
  I do judge "believers" in mythical gods to be be irrational, bigoted and closed minded.
  I base that judgement on 60+ yrs of living amongst you and witnessing the depth of ignorance it represents.
  If you fall into the category of "believer" and the shoe fits, ya must wear it.
  Qwark
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  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I am sorry, but your judging is all wrong. Actually, I found your judging to be a reflection of your own personality. The shoe fits you well.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Odd how the ones who complain the most.... could do no better than the ones they tear down. And instead of changing the doctrines or informing people of the correct doctrines they chose to not figure it out, not stand up, but to walk the other way and take up a small ineffective ministry on hubpages.
  
  not funny really. It almost makes me wanna believe in a satan... but nah, we are all responsible for whom we choose to serve.
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  qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Brother:
  You have an "IDEA" OF what this god thing is. Correct?
  I have studied the evolution of man and his gods for about 40 yrs.
  When I encounter one, such as you, who touts this god thing in the manner you do, I always ask this question: Pls define this god thing you speak of, in factual form, not opinion and conjecture. I usually get a question as an answer!
  In more than 40 yrs of questioning, I have gotten nothing but opinion and conjecture as an answer.
  I'm POSITIVE that you would offer the same.
  All you base your monotheistic belief on, is an "idea."
  I'm also sure that your life is guided by your monotheistic belief.
  To guide ones life on an "IDEA" and 'HOPE," is insane.
  Pls reply using logic and reason and make me a believer.
  If you can't, pls stay in the closet with your silly religious notions.
  TY.Qwark
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earnestshubposted 13 years ago
Does god exist?
No.

Nor does the tooth fairy or any of the other gods of myths and stories about gods and their disciples that frightened people have believed in since the beginning of time.

Bronze aged bulldust, nobbled together from all the thousands of stories that preceded it.
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  ceciliabeltranposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  ernest, aren't you a psychologist. why do you say this? ever heard of Jung? didn't we have a lively discussion on depth psychology a long long time ago?
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hi Cecilia. Yes we did have a discussion, In which I concluded that god was a psychological need, an archetype. Not a reality, so I don't get your meaning here. We spoke of "religiosity" being hardwired.
  
  I see nothing of a biblical god in the wiring though!
  
  I believe religiosity can be destroyed with a decent dose of an SUI to assist the synapses to dump the fear level down to barely screaming.
  
  I have personally observed several devout christians drop the psychosis after taking mmda.
  
  There are many better ways to observe the self such as meditation, drugs, psycho analysis, dream therapy, the list goes on.
  None of them require that we threaten others with death and damnation for not believing in them as far as I know anyway.
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  ceciliabeltranposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  An archetype is a reality expressed in metaphor simply because it eludes words.
  
  It's a mathematical formula. For example the fibonacci sequence which communicates a spiral without actually saying it.
  
  1 1 2 3 5 8 13 is a spiral but just by looking at it you can't tell. it seems random until you apply it. That is what an archetype is.
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  An archetype is a pillar of belief that is stuck in the psych, not necessarily in a way that is helpful...... and needs to be understood in direct relationship to self.
  First we need to define self.
  
  Self is the individual who is individuated according to what I see.
  
  Most humans will never attain more than a sniff of who they are as individuated humans.
  Confronting the ego to know self is the hardest thing for humans to do and as most will never even know about it..... let alone find the psychological courage to confront it I despair for the ignorant by choice religionists who make up most of the world's population. Many can neither read nor write, most of them have poor or no education, most are vulnerable.
  
  Their sub-conscious knows where the fear comes from and knows that religion is a lie. All humans know it is a lie subconsciously.
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  ceciliabeltranposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I really am coming from the perspective of depth psychology. Stories are very effective in communicating complex lessons of the consciousness that even the illiterate are drawn.
  
  I think what is damaging is the political insistence that these stories ARE historically true because they are not. They are based on actual places and in some occasions on real people but the stories are mythos.
  
  I actually disagree that we all instinctively think its a lie. The reason why myth captures our attention is something about them resonates. But there is a need to unfold these stories and dig the roots of these stories and their message. It is not enough to say BELIEVE. we have to understand.
  
  All literature have value, the bible is one of the most enduring literature. It is an exceptional source of wisdom. It must not be read literally but figuratively.
  
  An archetype by definition is:" (in Jungian psychology) a collectively inherited unconscious idea, pattern of thought, image, etc., universally present in individual psyches."
  
  So we are disagreeing because we have different definitions.
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  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I base my life on good sense and don't belong to any group. I would flow along the lines of the spiritual non religious 11%. It’s the supernatural God or personal God that dose not make sense to me. My image of an all loving God would not punish people worst than the crime.
  
  It works very well; just cast my question out into the Universe for God is just a word. When the answer comes back and I don’t listen to it, I lower my energy, rather than raise it
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Cagsilposted 13 years ago
Hey Cecilia,

The concept of "god", the one Jesus spoke of, is about self mastery.

It's being god, all powerful, all controlling of one self, learning to love oneself, so that love can be passed on to others and to have compassion for those who do not know how to do so. His "Love" and "Mercy" message is all about oneself and connecting with oneself, so much so, acceptance becomes natural and all barriers fall.

The one question I would love for any religious person to answer- "Why is there a need for a god?" - When you follow the above message.

Sorry for the ramble. Nice to see you though.
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  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I agree with much of that, the Godlike image would have to make sense .
  
  I feel mystic about Jesus, but only as ancient spiritual intelligence man.
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I'm in dispute with the manner in which the bible tells it. Within itself, it records Jesus' dislike for religion- the mystic form. The message he brought was in metaphorical parables. The scriptures are dated(tested) decades later.
  
  The gist of his message is as I just laid it out. Jesus could not do his work, if the religious rulers at that time, knew he was not teaching religion to his followers. He spoke oddly, so as to confuse them, so he could tend to what he needed to do.
  
  The OT depends on an external god- Jesus knew was false and why his ministry of followers were told to look within, instead of some external authority such as god. The NT is a crock solely based on Paul's awful interpretation of Jesus' work.
  
  That's what I learned during researching it.
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  Druid Dudeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  DAMN cag. That actually shows some logical thought. There is a God after all!!! Did you get Dave banned. Or was it the Gods of the internet? just curious.
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hello Druid. Dave banned? Didn't know.
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  qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Cags:
  Of course it's a "crock."
  Oh if these believers would only do their homework! tch tch
  Qwark
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  Druid Dudeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I said it shows logicality. I didn't say he followed it out to a conclusion: Cag, you believe that evolution is how we got where we are. Our beliefs also evolved, not just from early man, but neanderthal, also. We gained knowledge, and as we progressed, our beliefs also progressed. Just like Knowledge , beliefs are a step by step process. Just like evolution. Now you are really looking for sensible answers instead of being influenced by the religion of science, which comes complete with it's own dogma. Dogma means BS
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not looking for any answers.
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  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Cags
  
  There was a shaman area close down after I wrote a thread about Jesus being an amateur shaman. Jesus was only angry with the church for promoting money market. Money is written about many more times than hell or heaven combined.
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  But, "hell" and "heaven" are not in the meanings that the bible portrays them.
  
  "Hell" is about being dead and buried. edit: to be without life
  
  "Heaven" is Earth. If you took every human off the planet and you looked at from space, it is simply so beautiful(heavenly) to live upon.
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  Druid Dudeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Cag. Read Gene sis, do you see hell? God said S'all good. But, of course, you don't believe that God exists. Oh, yeah. You also said my beliefs were irrelevant. So, if you don't believe, then why do you call creation by the name that God called it. Universe. When God created Man, it doesn't say much else. What if the Man God created was a one celled creature. We were built upon that first step. even so, that would mean that man walked with Dinosaurs. On all fours. Check and mate.
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Genesis is a joke? Enough said.
  
  Edit: Since you brought it up- where exactly is Genesis?
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  Druid Dudeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  GENE + SIS= DNA HELLO! ANYONE IN THERE? The two ss are for snake. two esses, two snakes. The "I" is the winged staff in the medical insignia, with the snakes, it makes a double Helix (DNA) First page of the SKY FAIRY BOOK. DNA. CELL DIVISION. First page. Matter of interpretation? Then maybe you should listen more to mine.
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Oh really?
  
  From what it sounds like, putting it mildly, you've nothing to teach anyone, regardless of what book you are reading from.
  
  It appears as though you've got "creator" on the mind, as if and beginning to sound like many others. But, to each their own.
  
  As I've already stated- to this forum's question- No.
  
  And, before you interrupted, I was talking to someone else, who isn't you. But, since you demanded my attention, you now have it.
  
  You have a belief in a god- And what book did you get your belief from? You seem to be, from your words, basing your belief that religion and science working together to give you a creator.
  
  And, I'm sorry to say, that neither does the job, much less together.
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  Druid Dudeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Like that huh. How about the one minute version of bible from cover to cover (Condensed) A river of Man flowed out of Eden, split into four heads. four heads, four races : White, red, black , and yellow. Four horses of tha Apocalypse. Welcome to The opening of the book by David of the Key. TAAAA-DAAAA
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  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Cags
  
  The churches use heaven and hell like a carrot on a stick for control.
  
  Jesus said the kingdom of heaven is within
  
  There was a place, a large pit they did called hell, where they burn the bodies of the criminals.
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Kingdom of Heaven= Is Life on Earth.
  
  Kingdom of God within= Is Peace with Self. Harmony, Honesty and Love.
  
  Is Jesus' message. Again, not as it is portrayed in scripture.
  
  I know what the church has done, and it was done on purpose, so that religion could ultimately fool Jesus' followers.
  
  People are made, literally, by religion, to answer to a higher authority, when the highest authority is oneself. Self rule, hold oneself honest and accountable for all actions.
  
  Religion goes as far to force obedience, by claiming you have a choice, between a rock and a hard place? One of no choice. Religion- it's pathetic bible is nothing more than B.S., when researched.
  
  Anyone who supports it, supports the lies of ancient religious leaders who ruled at the time of Jesus. The scary thought is that people are not aware of it, because it was hidden in religion. The OT is B.S. The NT is a joke.
  
  There is no god.
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  Druid Dudeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  What will you say when the landing occurs. God is coming as we speak. Ever see the movie, The Day The Earth Stood Still. It WON"T be like that.
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  Druid Dudeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Heck, you don't even know his first name. You better start readin' Genesis. It's right after the cover that says Holy Bible Cag. That is the beginning of the book. JEEEZ how can you even follow a movie. You wear dark glasses in the theater?
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Trust me, what's coming isn't a god. But, I'll tell you one thing, when it hits, it going pound on every conscious human being on the planet.
  
  And, when it hits as hard as I think it is, not only will the idea of a god's existence be shattered, but the elevation of self awareness on this planet that's coming will seem like nothing seen before.
  
  I'll leave it at that. You can think about it.
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  If by self awareness you are talking about finding that little window in our consciousness through which we can see outside of ourself I might agree.
  
  As far as it being a God?
  I think that it will have all the atributes of what people think a God would have.
  
  And we will find out that we could have had it with us all along.
  
  And yes we will all be suprised !
  Cause that is what we humans do.
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hey Jerami, think of this way-
  
  More people will not only be able to see outside themselves, but also have no fear seeing inside themselves.
  
  I hope that summed it up as to it.
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I would say that your statement just about sums it up.
  I was thinking something very similar.
  I believe that the truth will soon be revealed and most everyone is going to be surprised.
  
  All of us.
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  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Only one thing to add, serve yourself first.
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  But sometimes the most selfish thing that can be done is to be selfless.
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I think you have a misconception going on there Jerami.
  
  How is being selfless being selfish? Cannot be done.
  
  I wrote a hub- "Self Growth VS Selfless View" is a comparison of religion's view which is selfless. Religious folk use the word unselfish, which is also addressed in the hub.
  
  http://hubpages.com/hub/Self-Growth-Ver … fless-View
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I agree with you concerning letting our own conscious be our guide unless your name happens to be Jeffrey Dahmer.
  
  In this imperfect world there are always exceptions to most every rule. Even the laws of nature sometimes seem to have exceptions.
  
  And when it comes to selfish and selfless, this has to be done within reason. Ya have to take care of yourself or you won't be able to take care of anyone else.
  
  It's midnight and time for bed getting up early.
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hmmm....
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  okay done thinking .. hahaha
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  hanging outposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  that was ghenna and it was the valley of hinnom. They burned garbage and criminals there. They tossed everything over the edge including the criminals. The fire was just below, quite a ways down.
  
  the last time i heard hell in my church was... dunno... i have heard satan 11 times.. mostly the word enemy. I understand these as metaphors so i am among a number of believers who believe a bit differently.
  Would i preach hell and satan in my church. NO.
  I don't think hell is a reason to be saved and i do not believe God ever created anything that was flawed. If so, what are we waiting for another third of the angels to get bored and just come to earth and pee around with us? Rubbish belief.
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  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Too bad, in the bible, Jesus talked more about hell than heaven.
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That doesn't sound right but if so?
  I will say this . I think that when the canon was being selected they chose to choose those letters that served their purpose.
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  oceansnsunsetsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Cagsil, as much as Jesus did speak in parables, he very often spoke very plainly. It is easy to understand the gist of his message even if he were to leave out every parable.
  
  I am of an opposing view in that I don't think Paul botched the message of Jesus and his work. I would be curious to know how you think Paul got what Jesus said wrong, and I am totally open to hearing it. I mean, how you think what Paul said goes against what Jesus said. One last though, even if you disagree with Paul, why throw out the baby with the bathwater?
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  ceciliabeltranposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  True, I do agree with you on Self-Mastery. But why is there a need for G-d?
  Because we have no name for it. Through the metaphor, the parable we or some of us, manage to rise above it and in seeing the meaning we become acquainted with that aspect of ourselves that can transcend our limited existence. G-d exists in this world because we need to
  assign
  
  x to an unknown number to arrive at a number 2x.
  
  It is as simple as that. G-d is there because G-d is needed. Otherwise, why else are we bothering with this persistent aspect of our world mythology?
  
  and nice to see you too!
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  chosen ignorance
  
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  ceciliabeltranposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  x is not ignorance it is just the unknown.
  
  you do not know it too you know. Nobody does.
  
  People manage to climb up from there you know. But they have to be willing.
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  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  There are more ways to God than you know.
  Most of the greatest men in human history are believers of God, to prove that it works.
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  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Mark
  
  I build displays in natural history museum and report much more of the positive side of Great men in History. The vast majority of great men are believers in God in one form or another. Great atheist men in history are small, yet grand in the area of science.
  
  The men you are speaking of not are likely to be recorded as great men, unless they are notice for their large mass murders or StumbleUpon on a one hit wonder.
  
  Kill one man and become a murderer; kill many men become a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god.
  
  Not my image of an all loving God or kindness,
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Any one would think the irrational belief in an Invisible Super Being has been an all-pervasive theme in our recorded history.
  
  Hitler believed in god. Bush and Blair claim the same belief. Are these "great men."?
  
  Times they are a-changing. The social stigma attached to atheism is shrinking as we speak, thus we are more free to express our opinion.
  
  What is your point exactly? Some guys who were nasty and aggressive enough to be named "great," by you believed in an Invisible Super Being - and this is some how a reason for me to not make my own judgment on the matter?
  
  You do know that until a few hundred years ago - declaring yourself an atheist was a death sentence - right?
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  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Mark
  
  Take a great man likes Albert Einstein where atheist and Christian alike, love to claim him in their camp and put the great terror likes of Hitler in the other. G. Bush may go down in history as one the worst President ever and his IQ score was the worst ever.
  
  A new kind of death means new kinds of measurement to be recorded. For example suicide deaths out number War, terror and murder deaths combined. The extremes of high Capitalismbetween and poverty is the greatest death products of all time. A faction of the war budget would cur poverty alone. If the truth were to be told, extreme poverty is the world's biggest killer and the greatest cause of ill health and suffering in the world. One third of the world is homeless.
  
  Our greatest treat is nuclear war and the enivironment.
  I wrote hub on this topic
  The actually majority of great men in history do believe in God yet, they are some where between atheists and super natural religions.
  
  For Example Albert Einstein
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Still not understanding your point. Einstein was pretty clear that if there was a god - and he did not believe there was - it did not involve itself in the affairs of the Universe.
  
  Truth be told, artificial rationing of resources is the world's biggest killer. 50% of the population are starving while the other 50% kill themselves over indulging.
  
  Please make your point more clear. First you can start by defining this god these "great" men believe in. Then perhaps you could explain to me what bearing that should have for me. There is no god. You think that because some "great" man from a time when to not publicly believe in one was a death sentence. Then we can discuss how these "great" men used this god concept to persuade the ignorant masses to follow them in whatever greatness it was they did.
  
  A few "great" atheists for you include:
  
  Napoleon Bonaparte
  Ferdinand Magellan
  Karl Marx
  Albert Einstein
  Thomas Jefferson
  Sigmund Freud
  Siddhartha Gautama
  
  So what?
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  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Mark
  
  Many Atheists give me lists over 25 or more of atheist greatest men in history and most on those are not self proclaimed atheist. It is in my profession to know the background these men. Atheist takes these men quotes often out of contexts.
  
  Many leaders such as Karl Marx, Napoleon Bonaparte I don’t why you want those two on your atheist list, like bush they suffer from mass murder and small dick dieses
  
  Not self proclaim atheists
  
  1. Thomas Jefferson mainly because USA Political popularly system
  2, Albert Einstein self-proclaimed Pantheist. Spinoza's God who reveals himself. Richard Dawkins claim he is deeply religious the same way Einstein is, figure that one out.
  3.Siddhartha Gautama Buddhist .... Atheists can not exist because negatives can not be proven.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  What is your point exactly? You do not think Napoleon was a "great" man? You cannot prove a positive. Surely that is more telling?
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  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Mark
  
  Can not imagine running out of ideas to kill someone. I have traveled in a few wars zone areas and have not harmed anyone in my entire life.
  
  Napoleon has been estimated to have been responsible for as many as 2.5 million lives being lost.
  
  That would not make my positive list.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  What is your point exactly?
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  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  A great service for atheist is in science
  
  I can not imagine science and skepticism leading over imagination and spirit , as most people do not. A science reality is only governed by weakness of imagination. When imagination is backed with science, it’s the critical spirit that creates. Imagination is stronger than skepticism. Science has an overloaded perception and does not know its debt to imagination. To suffer from lack Imagination is reality divorced from facts, wail imagination illuminates the facts. Like it or not Religion has ruled and lead because of its degree of imagination. My personal thought is we can grain greatest by shortly follow up our imagination methods by science and skepticism rather than it lagging a mile behind.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I see. Just because you do not understand the imagination required to postulate a testable scientific theory, that does not mean that "science" does not.
  
  Once again - I have no idea what you are trying to say. Most of what you said makes no sense at all. Wail imagination illuminates the facts? grain greatest by shortly follow up our imagination methods by science and skepticism rather than it lagging a mile behind? What on earth is this supposed to mean? I must assume you do not speak English as your mother tongue and ask that you try these again - because they make no sense. Thanks.
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  qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Ralwus:
  I'm with you.
  I couldn't make heads or tales out of his comment.
  I'm waiting for clarification, if that's possible. :-)
  Qwark
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  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I can see the last sentence needs a rewrite along with the type error of grain instead of gain.
  
  I’m new to writing; I always had hired a writer, that’s going to change. My work has always been over focus physically and visually and there not even one book shelve of any language in the Spanish community jungle where I live.
  
  My point would be, atheist over focus on science and skepticism, it unbalances their expansive growth in the area of fresh imagination. It limits atheist to 3% of the population in the world and set them into the position of subjective and followers of the lead and rule of religion. A science reality is only governed by weakness of its imagination.
  
  On the other hand, the 8/10th religious of our World draw mainly their imagination from ancient spirituality rather than from fresh imagination.
  The greatest down side of the both extremes, lacks of fresh imagination. When imagination is backed with science, it’s the critical spirit that creates. Since Imagination is stronger than skepticism and science. I envision: fresh studies of the 99% spiritual unknowns will give man greater gains into fresh imagination and lead us slowly to a spiritual age.
  
  From that fresh spiritual and imagination leads, science and skepticism shall shortly follow rather than it lagging a mile behind as it’s disallow by religions, today.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  So - your point is what exactly? That you do not understand the imagination required to develop scientific theories. OK.
  
  And?
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  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  When imagination is backed with science, it’s the critical spirit that creates.
  
  I base my life on good sense, imagination, spirit and love, being led by all that, makes good sense. There are degrees of science in everything, its like one big branch on the whole of the tree of Life. The Government is science base; the government is like a fungus on the tree, the tree needs the fungus to survive. (Excluding God constitution in parts of the Middle East of small degrees of science.) If the fungus becomes too strong it will suppress the tree by chocking it, and sometimes killing it. Justice doesn’t even work in nature like the cougar eats the coyote the coyote eats the rabbit.
  
  I would see myself as a spiritual being first, being protected shortly by self reliance science. You have a healthy sense of reasoning, yet could go beyond with a new way of thinking led by fresh imagination and spirit rather than led by science.
  
  G-dlike ideas from Einstein theories could be recommended, but not required.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Imagination is absolutely vital in science.
  Government is a parasite the same as religion.
  
  Why do you assume I reject fresh imagination and "spirit" because I reject the notion of a God? I constantly explore myself and the world around me. You are a self professed wrestling expert - right? You would know me from 100 yards away without me having spoken a word. You probably don't even understand why.
  
  I could go with Einstein's god any day. I will paraphrase what he said:
  
  "If there is a god - it has absolutely no interaction with the universe at all. None. If there is a god - it is in the inner workings of physics and invisible in all other ways. There is absolutely not an actual, personal god - I reject that notion completely and religion is for children."
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  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The attitude in the USA is their claim of being a Christian nation. The USA balancing factor is there is no word God in the constitution. I agree with you about the religious greed factor. In the bible there are 7 times more scriptures about finances than about heaven and hell scriptures combined and more hell words than heaven. Money has the least to do with their pursuit of happiness.
  
  I'm some what along the line of 11% spiritual non religious, yet, a believer in god, just not in a personal or super natural God. My fighting skills saved from being badly mugged from some bad boy monkeys over food.
  
  Dawkins and Einstein claim they are deeply religious, I may never understand why, would you know why?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Ah you mean politics, central banks and the artificial rationing of resources called "money," are needed because they are still a "persistent aspect," of our world paradigm?
  
  Grow up Cecelia. Certain small portions of humanity grow fat on the back of the ignorant masses and the god idea is one way of perpetuating that.
  
  We no more need it than we need pieces of paper to value each other. But all the time we can persuade a big enough portion of the ignorant masses to die for it - it perpetuates itself.
  
  We are getting rid of it as we speak. And the world will be a better place for it. We may even learn to look inside instead of outside for the answers. Who knows?
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  ceciliabeltranposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  it is not a meme that you can destroy because it is hardwired in our anatomical structure, it is something within us, a capacity, an idea that we can transform until it is relevant to us, until it makes us understand our nature.
  
  G-d is needed because there is no other word for G-d. The aspect of our consciousness that we cannot reach intellectually. As I told Cagsil, you need to assign letters to invisible numbers to arrive at x+y=Z. When the numbers are there, then using the formula, you actually get it.
  
  I however understand your concern that people do get stuck saying BAAAAAA when what they should be doing is thinking. But everyone has different capacities of thought. I've had this discussion with you so I'm going to stop there.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  We can reach this aspect of our consciousness and worshiping a psychotic invisible entity does not help us to reach this aspect of ourselves. Quite the opposite in many cases.
  
  We do not need the word. Look at the damage it does. We are getting rid of it right now. Hence the "hatred" you perceive.
  
  It will always cause conflict, right up until the last child is educated out of the use of this meaningless, unintelligible word.
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  ceciliabeltranposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I remember mentioning to you what happened to Cambodia and for a long time China under Mao Tse Tung after this philosophy was adapted. How do you teach a child lessons of the consciousness without the use of stories. It is the way it is, because our nature reverts back to metaphor.
  
  Our mythology and dreams have the same symbolic language and what you see out there in religious temples or churches cannot be understood by your conscious mind because it is compressed knowledge. It is all senses and visual symbols and emotion squeezed together to convey a learning, a breakthrough in consciousness. The conscious mind cannot understand this language but the unconscious does. It is pure code talking straight to the machine.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You are wrong. This is just another irrational belief. If you were correct, the machine would understand instead of concocting this psychotic invisible entity.
  
  Do we have to destroy ourselves before you grasp that?
  
  I have seen you attempting to explain this to the believers. They laugh in your face.
  
  My conscious mind understands this language. I can attune my conscious mind to my unconscious and have learned ways to do this which do not involve the Psychotic Invisible Super Being.
  
  We have skill sets related to survival which are dangerous to others but protect ourselves and our family (extended family also - church, tribe, clan, political party, whatever).
  
  The believers tap into these without understanding them or even becoming aware of them. All they know is they know "something" and it is worth fighting for and God is a great word for it. When there is no need to fight. We can get rid of this and tap into these skills without the fighting. But we have to get rid of the Invisible Super Being first. It gets in the way unless you can persuade people it is a metaphor.
  
  You try your way, I will try mine. I have tried your way - they cannot listen because God is speaking directly into their head.
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  ceciliabeltranposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I don't know about wrong. It has neurological basis. The language of dreams/insanity/mythology
  is really how we pass on unconscious knowledge.
  
  I do however understand what you're saying that at some point in the maturity of humanity, it is possible for us to just discuss these things with mindfulness as we are doing now. I do however think that myth is effective at storing the knowledge until it can be unfolded by awareness. Most of it is really so complex but essential.
  
  You must have been exposed to the really dreary versions of Christians there is. I fortunately have very limited exposure to them.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Dear me. Why can you not discuss anything without two-penny snap psychological guesses about me?
  
  I don't know where you are, but where exactly avoided the Christian crusades and cleansings? Your ability to ignore reality is quite shocking, but lack of exposure to the outside world tends to create blinkered people. I suggest you get out more.
  
  I am not saying that myths are not one way of passing on collective or unconscious knowledge. What I am saying is that myth is not an effective means of communication and we have moved on. If it is not possible to understand the reasons behind the myths and you need a priest or psychologist to explain the meanings to you, then all we have done is created another form of parasite.
  
  Have you seen the US political landscape? Are you aware that 51% of the US population does not believe humans evolved from other species, because that "does not make any sense," given the "facts" in the bible they have about where we came from?
  
  There are other, more effective ways of attuning one self to the collective consciousness without the need for these myths which have become facts in the minds of many.
  
  We are disposing of these myth-facts now. Lack of belief in a deity is growing all the time. Both the Katholic and Protestant Institutions are struggling for money and will (hopefully) die out soon. Perhaps then we can start the process of educating peopel to be able to understand these myths without a faith belief that they will live in heaven if they do wot god sed?
  
  This is a collectively painful process, and the old guard is putting up a fight. I genuinely hope that they will not drag us back to the dark ages by creating a war between themselves and the muslimists.
  
  I know - in your world they are all loving people who would not harm a fly - but in the real world they fly planes into buildings and go off to Afghanistan with a gun in one hand and a bible in the other to make war for money and call it giving freedom like wot god sed.
  
  These people think love expresses itself by taking aboriginal children away from their parents and placing them in good christian homes to learn real values. These people stand up and tell their followers that condoms do not protect them from AIDS. These people are prepared to help child abusers avoid the law in order to protect the institution Jesus wanted on earth.
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  ceciliabeltranposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I don't recall penny snap psycho-analysis today, although I tend to do that to everybody. After a few back and forth posts.
  
  I am in New York but I grew up in Manila where there are 86% Catholics, one of them is my Mom. Dad is a converted Muslim. I have not met the infamous fanatics of Middle America save for one or two.
  
  One tried to convince me to believe in the existence of the Devil, so that Jesus can save me.
  Another one tried to preach Jehovah's doctrine in a Central Park Bathroom...they went away when I started talking Hebrew. Kind of like..."err..perhaps another easier prey will be more productive"
  
  It's funny, you should try it one time. You really can't paint the expression on their faces. But there you go.
  
  Mark, I really think that these stories have insight, and I am only championing that the Concept of GOD as a recurring phenomenon in mythos is a worthy subject to perpetuate.
  
  I think there is a G-d, but not in the literal way. And what G-d symbolizes in actuality is an interesting academic pursuit, because G-d affects us so deeply.
  
  You want to change the label to collective consciousness. Then do so, but then the question continues, what is that collective consciousness? Does it really exist? Its just another way to ponder the same thing.
  
  What must change is the insistence that the there is such a thing as religious notions that must not be questioned. Because that is the thing that is causing all these heartaches caused by religion. Any assault to greater knowledge is cancerous to the psyche.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I understand what you are championing, but I disagree. And I disagree based on 2,000 years of warfare and the current level of fanaticism I see.
  
  The collective consciousness, or whatever label you want to use is a throw back to survival traits we no longer need on a day to day basis. These traits evolved as a response to danger. We do not need them and every time we make steps to no longer need them, they express themselves inappropriately. It is also part of our ability to communicate non-verbally. We communicate using smells, sounds and sights also - many of which we are simply too removed from reality to be aware of.
  
  It is unhealthy for us to not fear anything. So we create things in our minds to fear. Our parasympathetic nervous system is keeping itself fit and healthy. That is all. It is part of our "collective" consciousness, because we all share it and all inherited these traits.
  
  Much of what we developed during evolution is no longer appropriate, but we are not evolving as fast as our technology. As an example - we no longer need swelling to speed recovery from injuries because we have techniques to get us back to usefulness faster than our bodies can heal. So now we reduce swelling when it happens.
  
  This is the same. We need to understand ourselves and understand our responses to stimuli. Myths are a throw back to a time when we had no better way of understanding ourselves and the world around us and it did not matter if just a few people understood them and told every one else what to think. That time is coming to and end now. For our own survival, we need to educate every one to be able to understand them - or we are going to go to war over them - again.
  
  People need to understand that we cannot trust the Pope to tell us what to do. People need to understand the reasoning behind the myth - not take the myths at face value. This god-thing is a monster of our own making. We created it - we need to destroy it.
  
  I have never once said that there is no insight or value to these myths. I understand the insight in them. I have a "personal relationship," with all sorts of dead people. My favorite is Leonardo da Vinci and I often sit back and have a chat with him.
  
  But - I know he is not a real person. I know this is simply me accessing one of the useful functions of my imagination. I am not going to tell you that you need to speak to this dead guy to be the person I want you to be.
  
  I do not thing an Invisible Super Being is speaking into my head when I judge something "wrong."
  
  I am simply protecting myself from a threat I see. This threat is religion. No god-thingy, no religion. The religionists are protecting themselves from a non-existent threat. We need to teach them that the threat is not there.
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  ceciliabeltranposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I hear you, and I hear that you hear me.
  
  But it is not the presence of the GOD concept that is inspiring all these distortions. It is simply man.
  I will always refer you back to the godless societies and revolutions.
  
  Pol Pot really thought he could eradicate capitalism and the religious preoccupations by starting from scratch. The result was chaos and teenagers shooting babies. This is a no-religion regime doing this. So you see freedom from G-d does not protect us from stupidity.
  
  We do not need to shed G-d to evolve. We need to shed fear and ignorance.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No. We need education. The god-thingy holds us back from that. We are essentially lazy. Evolution created that in us also. Our bodies take the easiest route to anything. Always.
  
  God is the easy-peasy answer for everything. We need fear. It is a vital part of our survival skills. Absolutely vital. We cannot shed it. If ever we do, we will go extinct. Fear is what drives us.
  
  We need to accept it, understand it and channel it in "healthy," directions. The god-thingy tries to teach us to "defeat," and "fight against this evil." Utter garbage and a total distortion of what you are championing.
  
  It is broken. Why flog this dead horse?
  
  So what if a godless society failed? Wiping out the indigenous people of the Americas and Australias was done by a "God fearing" society.
  
  Lets learn from these mistakes, take the insights available to us from these god myths and dispense with the god-thingy.
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  ceciliabeltranposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  that was the aim of communism and that too failed.(China is the democratic communistic mutation, which is a no-god society, remember the demonstrations that was squashed...those were students)
  
  We always end here... you think it's the god-thingy, i think its a man thingy.
  
  What we are both saying is we need to elevate our level of thinking. What we are disagreeing with is who to blame. You say god, I say man, potato, potahto, tomato, tomahto...lets call the whole thing off.
  
  I need to ZZZZZZ, mark. ciao
  
  (but yeah i agree we need to educate folks and that's not easy...people like to automate)
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That was not the aim of communism. Dear me - where do you get this stuff? You sound like a Konservative Kristian.
  
  Communism is a political philosophy that was purposefully destroyed in the USSR by the capitalists it threatened. If anything - it was as close a political philosophy to Christianity as I can think of. Give up ownership of material wealth and help your fellow man? Sounds wonderful.
  
  But as usual, the priests/government officials responsible for even distribution of the wealth/knowledge/resources kept the lion's share for themselves, but were unable to defeat the rival system. Those people now own the coal mines, telecom companies, gas pipelines etc. It is just called capitalism now and the USA will sell them wheat to feed their peasants in exchange for exploiting these resources.
  
  Whether you like it or not - we are indeed dispensing with the god-thingy. I do agree that it is important to take the insights available through the medium of mythology and translate them into modern day parlance. We are already doing that and have been for some time now.
  
  Sadly - we are just repeating the same mistake as the god thingy and instead are starting to worship Harry Potter. Oh well - when the first MGM v Warner Brothers war breaks out, hopefully it will just be a TV spectacle.
  
  Night night.
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  ceciliabeltranposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  well advertising agencies and the studios got a hold of Campbell's Hero's Journey. What can I say.
  
  I do know about Communism, particularly Karl Marx. He had the notion that WE can create our destiny. We don't have to learn from our predecessors. Such a romantic idea and one that was embraced by intellectuals who were Romantics. They were feeling detached from life with the advent of industrialization.
  
  The downside of Marx is the implication of his philosophy is based on destruction of whatever was founded. If every single leader on earth thought that, then there will only be destruction, no continuity. Do we throw away legacy before we understand them?
  
  Mao Tse Tung killed so many people and buried so much history that China is grasping for the last strands that remain of their rich heritage. Certain cultural treasures were obliterated from China and whatever communism touched. It is and was a disaster. Then only thing that the Chinese have going for them is that they mutated into a half-communist, half-democratic nation. "To be wealthy is glorious."
  
  G-d is an integral part of our awakening. The history of G-d must be taught in schools. Children must be exposed to the themes of religion because it was a great molder and it led us civilization. I agree that it is time to evolve. But evolution means improvement not genocide.
  
  We must learn about what G-d represents, what G-d stands for. What we must abolish is the insistence that things must be burned, buried. That certain cultures must be obliterated. They are all part of knowledge. The Inquisition did this to pagan religions, to science and to intellectuals. If we do the same to Christianity and other religions, then we are another inquisition destroying what came before us, without even trying to make sense of it.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Ah the good old days of the Christian massacres across Europe. A thousand years and millions of witches burned. Along with all knowledge of that time.
  
  LOLOLOLOLOLO
  
  or we can pretend it never happened if you want.
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  ceciliabeltranposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  people kill for all sorts of ideology, even communism.
  
  understand, not destroy. The worse things about the concept of god that you detest will be neutered with understanding.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Not according to your previous posts.
  
  Yes, we can teach children how the religions of the world have caused insurmountable death and destruction at the hands of its leaders and followers.
  
  Delusion, ignorance, hatred, bigotry, etc. etc. These are the things god represents.
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  qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  2 thumbs up Beelze!
  Qwark
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  and Christians can teach the same thing about those who do not believe in God.
  in fact the things you mention are things God does NOT represent.
  
  God doesn't teach hatred, oh i suppose if you skip all the pertinent scriptures about love in the NT and just keep quoting all those old inferences out of the OT you might come to the conclusion that God hates sinful activity and will have no problems putting souls where they belong, later on.
  Have a good sleep.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That, despite the fact that the Constitution of the People's Republic of China guarantees "freedom of religion" and that amongst many other religions, all three Abrahamic religions are practiced there?
  
  Is it that you're saying the aim of communism is to form a no-god society as opposed to the formation of the proletariat into a class by the overthrowing of the bourgeois supremacy and achieving conquest of political power, in essence to be summed up in a single sentence: Abolition of private property?
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  qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Beelz:
  The only chance of mankind surviving is the creation of a 1 world govt that has as its goal "survival of the species!"
  That 1 world gov't must destroy, absolutely, the concept of god/s and rule by logic and reason. It must dedicate itself to the education of the remaining masses.
  Any opposition would have to be met in Machiavellian style i.e. the complete annihilation of the opposers.
  Unfortunately, it's much to late to consider a 1 world govt as an option.
  This "pessimist" views contemporary mankind as a lost cause.
  WE are just too infantile and dumb to exist!
  Qwark
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  qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  ...Qwark slaps Mark on the back, grabs his hand, covers it with the other and shakes it in appreciation!
  Mark, you said it better than I ever could!
  My respect for your insight is unlimited!
  Oh, if there were only more of us! Tsk tsk
  Qwark :-)
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks.
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  qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  My pleasure! :-)
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  why do you write G-d?
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IntimatEvolutionposted 13 years ago
Does God exist?

The forever ageless question.

I think something exists that greater than me. Is his name God? Not for sure, I think so.
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qwarkposted 13 years ago
I've just added another "hubber" too my list of those who have nothing of value to add to the forum and are not worthy of a response i.e. Druid tch tch
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Cagsilposted 13 years ago
That's why people should be interest in self improvement. To be self interest, you are always improving upon yourself. It is not selfish to improve upon oneself.

The actions you do can be selfless by supplying yourself with a meaning and purpose of life that benefits others. I wrote a different sort of hub to give a different perspective about it.

It's called- How Greed Can Lead To A Selfless Purpose. That ties into another Hub which shows one How To begin doing it and the first step to doing that is to understand the power of money and the respect it deserves.

Self improvement is a must, so we can adapt and evolve. Helping others is a selfless act. Nothing selfish in it.
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  qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Cags:
  "Helping others is a selfless act. Nothing selfish in it.
  
  We disagree. If I help others, it's a selfish (Concerned chiefly or only with oneself) desire to bring me joy and to satisfy a personal need to assist.
  Qwark
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Being selfless isn't a need to satisfy.
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  qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Cags:
  Of course it is.
  I am a very selfish person.
  If I help you because you are needy, I am satisfying a selfish need to assist. Assisting brings me a sense of joy and worth. If it didn't, I'd pass ya by.
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  But what you describe is not a need. It being willing to help, whenever possible.
  
  A need would be something you feel compelled to do or must do. A need is selfish. Doing out of the goodness of your heart is not a need, it's a selfless action out of love for others.
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  qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Cags:
  I have no love for others.
  I don't really care about others.
  If I help or assist it is because of a selfish desire for joy and a feeling of worth.
  I am a very very selfish person.
  I will drive by an auto accident. Pay it no heed.
  If I saw children in danger, there would be a "selfish" (not a selfless desire) desire to save them. It would bring me joy and a feeling of momentary value.
  I understand the point you are trying to make.
  If you and I were in a foxhole, bullets flying all about us and I knew one of us would be killed, I'd wish it were you.
  That's being very selfish. if you got it, I'd sigh and think to myself...thank goodness!...lol I'd be happy to be alive and sorry you died...but the selfish joy I'd experience would be worth your death. :-)
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  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  True
  
  As they say on air flights, put the mask on your self first and then the child second
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  There is a reason for that, but that has nothing to do with this topic. But, thank you. I get the gist.
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Jon Rubinposted 13 years ago
No one knows. It's the definition of unknowable.
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awesome77posted 13 years ago
Yes! but not in the way you relate to it. The 2 dimensions in the world is real. Always existed a natural power with its own rules of conduct. Some people call the power God, but very few understand the rules of getting help from the power and I am not referring to the ten commandments either.

The super natural power will respond to those that follow the rules of conduct and you will always get in return what you put out!
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Disturbiaposted 13 years ago
God or whatever God is conceived to be exists in the minds and hearts of those who believe.
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  qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Disturbia:
  Quite true.
  That is why this biblical god thing can't "literally" be defined.
  Every believer in "it" imagines "it" differently.
  Qwark
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  Disturbiaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  There you go, that's exactly why all the religious forums where believers vs. non-believers get into those heated debates and arguments are so pointless. They argue for the sake of argument, neither camp acomplishing anything more than fostering more discord in a world already filled with too much.
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  livelongerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Agreed.
  
  Both types of evangelicals screaming at each other that everyone should believe the same (unverifiable) thing that they believe...
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  both implies 2 views. There more than 2 views
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  the pink umbrellaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  like santa
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  PhoenixVposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  And things like "theories and hypothesis". Inventions, concepts, qualia etc
  
  Even your own existence apart from the physical "exists only in your mind".
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  ceciliabeltranposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  LOL
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  oceansnsunsetsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  excellent point phoenix. Some inconsistencies observed there. Restrictions forced on some other things, but not all things, so we see the bias.
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Jeramiposted 13 years ago
Life is like a box of chocolates .....

Ya don't know what you are getting until we bite into it.
Some of them has nuts and some don't.
Some of them are filled with a sweet cream and some of them are rock hard in the center.

What is with that ?
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  Troy C.posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  If you have to ask the question, then he does not exist to you. He has not called you, or has not revealed himself to you. Also , it might be that you have not been seeking after him. He will never exist to you personally if neither of these things has happened. I pray that someone reading this will come to the knowledge of God, because he is real my friends and he is waiting.
  
  Love and Blessings, Troy C.
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earnestshubposted 13 years ago
I believe that the tooth fairy had nothing to do with any of it.
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earnestshubposted 13 years ago
Who made god again?
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qwarkposted 13 years ago
I sit here, read all these responses and shake my head in amazement!
Where were so many of you when your god thing passed out "brains?"
There is such a dirth of knowledge and understanding being publicly flaunted!
It's embarrassing to me to witness my fellow man wallowing in abject ignorance when all that mankind is and has become is there for the student of life and existance to assimilate, digest and metabolize. Once that process has taken place neurological omosis will seperate the wheat from the chaff and knowledge, leading to wisdom, will be gained!
I guess I'm just an aging idealist.
It seems no one gives a Sh*t!
Insanity seems to be another human plague that cannot be cured before extinction becomes a viable threat! Sighhh!
Qwark :-(
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  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I think extinction is far off, yet more suffering is in store rather than greater happiness. For my daughter sake, it inspires me to work hard on it, as best as I can anyways.
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  PieterTheProphetposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Qwark, it can be frustrating.. this is the process. Stay in the hunt.
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earnestshubposted 13 years ago
Pol Pot’s Education: 1934 – 1935 Buddhist monastery Wat Botum Vaddei in Phnom Penh 1935 – 1943 Catholic school in Phnom Penh École Miche 1943 – 1947

Stalin once wanted to be a priest.
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ceciliabeltranposted 13 years ago
you do know that in our language LOLO means grandpa LOLOLO!
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Cagsilposted 13 years ago
Understanding- "god" is a metaphor, it's meaning, would be helpful to people.

One problem- the OT spoke of a 'god' as an external authority, which presently many seem to agree.

One problem- Jesus dismissed religion's 'god' as false. Which then throws out anything from the OT. Yet, plenty of people refuse to understand it.

One problem- Paul's interpretation of Jesus' work is also false.

So, in the end, nothing in the bible is inspired by a 'god'. It is it's own proof that there is no god.
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  ceciliabeltranposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  If you study mythology, you will see that all stages are reflections of the events in human consciousness.
  
  For example, the emergence of Satan as a reptile nemesis of G-d in Christian dogma coincided with the rise of conservative thought. In conservative states, the belief in an external Devil is as important to salvation as Jesus. (as if you don't know that)
  
  Christianity today is about repression of the normal urges of life. Do not have sex, do not eat all the time. Do not look at that beautiful woman. It is the repression of bodily urges. So the reptilian aspect becomes rejected and vilified whereas in eastern religions they are revered as the gateway to healing
  
  The body brain is reptilian and so we instinctively tell ourselves that our body is evil and it must be defeated. The will of the end goal must prevail. This is all symbology and unless people understand this, they will continue to conjure up metaphors of evil snakes that want to overcome us.
  
  Another example is the Eagle emblem of the U.S. The bird brain inside us is incharge of choice.
  Isn't it appropriate that this is america's chosen icon? The american eagle holding a shield. Which in mythos means CHOICE. The power of Choice. WE can choose here in this land.
  
  It is so rich, so rich in insight that it is only we that loses out if we do not strive to understand it.
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  A very well though out and informative post Cecilia.
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  ceciliabeltranposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks Earnest!
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  prettydarkhorseposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Cecilia, Kumusta, How are you?
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  Sword of Fireposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hey, everyone. Familiar words, new life. Re-incarnation feels GREAT!
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I am very well thank you! I hope you are the same. Sorry wrong person. Nice to see you prettydarkhorse
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Cecelia - I don't think you are understanding what I said.
  
  I agree there is a lot of great understanding to be gleaned from symbolism and myths.
  
  But - after 2,000 years of people not understanding these myths and the purpose they serve - it is time to teach our children that they are myths, not facts. In school. From a young age. Not that Jesus wants them to fight for their country.
  
  I understand how these myths reflect our society. I personally find the muslim/christian nonsense to be so far removed from the "natural order" of things that it is damaging to us - both as individuals and as societies. It can only end in conflict. Women should cover their hair becoz god sed so? You cannot enter the Vatican wearing a pair of shorts becoz god gets offended? dear me.
  
  I mean - just look at the anti social behavior of some on this thread. Creating fake personas to post some nonsense praising the Lord! then copy pasting that statement and shouting AMEN! This is what christianity and islam teach their followers to do - not have rational dialog. Not to think for themselves. Tell them their book is mythology and they will probably want to kill you for suggesting such a thing.
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  ceciliabeltranposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I understand what you're saying and I agree that this should be taught in schools. All aspect of it, the good the bad, the confusion and the clarity, it's role in science and the acquisition of knowledge.
  
  If they are taught as reflections of the collective psyche, they cannot be used for propaganda. But the point is to keep talking about it. To keep studying it and to keep telling the stories in their proper context.
  
  They are actually history in code, Mark. You can plot the predominant psyche of a nation by the myths that resonate in them. As for G-d and whether G-d exists. Well, if G-d is persistent in myth, what is G-d in actuality? That is the big question that deserves to be answered. What actual phenomenon in the psyche is G-d?
  
  See this is where it gets interesting and you will see that when you strive to answer the question, biblical language will come out . "The Father is in me and I am in the Father" or Tat Vam Asi (that is you) or Namaste "The G-d in me recognizes the G-d in you" and so on and so forth. G-d represents something inside of us that is in not so many words also out there and that it is a continuing intelligent presence.
  
  And it is more than 2000 years. We have been worshipping G-d or gods ever since our frontal brain got bigger.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The last 2000 years has seen the rise of the monotheistic god. And it is taught as fact - not as myth. God is a myth, a concept, not an actual being. It does not exist as an actual being. Most religious people will not agree with you that god represents anything other than a supreme being that actually exists.
  
  And oddly enough - you are quite happy to ignore the numerous wars, pogroms, crusades and dark ages cause by this poorly phrased attempt to understand ourselves. These believers are not learning anything. Nothing. They are perpetuating a myth that teaches them nothing about themselves. Quite the opposite in fact. Their myth teaches them that they need an interpreter called a priest to take on the responsibility of holding the knowledge.
  
  You are also mistaken about when we started worshiping this thing. We did not start to do so when our frontal brain got bigger. We started worshiping the things we saw that gave us life - the animals we eat and the sun. But only when we became self aware - somewhere around 30-70,000 years ago (still being argued about the actual timeline). We existed in our present evolutionary state for about 120,000 years before that.
  
  This sun and nature worship morphed into multi-gods and - I believe - the people understood what they were worshiping was aspects of themselves and keeping alive an oral history of their development. This was necessary until we developed other ways of storing the information. As I mentioned earlier - our technology is advancing faster than we are able to - the religions have always put up a fight when new knowledge comes along as it makes them unnecessary.
  
  We do not need a priest to tell us where we came from. We have solid evidence of where we came from. That doesn't mean we need to destroy or throw out that knowledge, just that it needs to be re-classified and taught properly.
  
  No. What this god-thing is doing is getting in the way of us understanding ourselves and the connection we have with the universe. It is old-thinking. Lets try new thinking instead. To do that we need to relegate the god thing to mythology where it belongs.
  
  I spent yesterday looking at Indian and Asian religious symbology in a great exhibit in Nice. They were allowed golden calves.
  
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  ceciliabeltranposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "To relegate god thing to mythology where it belongs"
  
  Indeed G-d is part of mythology but what is mythology. Mythology is a metaphor for events in the consciousness that have physical, actual physical/historical counterparts. Mythology is just the study of the subjective experience of knowing.
  
  Campbell asserts that the religious traditions must remain in order for the purpose in our psyche to live out, if not we must make new ones that resonate.
  
  So you are actually proposing a contradiction. There will be no myths to analyze and understand if people are not permitted to live them out.
  
  Their should be religions, people should be allowed to worship G-d, but also we should understand why we need to do this and why it is vital to our psyche. What must change is imposing one thing as right. This religion is better than that. No religion is better than religion. It's just not humane to impose these things and the results are catastrophic to human life. Whether religion or ideology (I think they are the same by the way) people must choose their own path. What we can do is make available the knowledge to understand them and for this knowledge to be made public in schools. So whether they choose to sleepwalk and live in a dream or wake up and make sense it is up to them, up to us.
  
  I am not ignoring the crimes of religious politics more than I ignore the crimes of politics. They are the same. The use of things that resonate in order to mesmerize people into doing something they would not otherwise do. I am just maintaining that the problem is not the presence of the concept G-d but the persistent ignorance of men.
  
  SO in that we agree. Religion and the belief in G-d must remain a thing that we study and use to intimate this mystery of the consciousness but should be left outside of politics, whether it be
  government or science itself.
  
  You cannot mandate the eradication of a belief system, you can only provide new avenues of understanding.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It is not possible to explore the avenues of understanding that are available if you believe in myth as fact. People believe G-d as fact, and do not and cannot learn anything from this. That is my point - and always has been.
  
  I am not mandating anything other than the education of people. You seem quite happy ignoring the fact that god worship must create hierarchy, must create politics, must create wars.
  
  So - we "should," stop the insanity before it engulfs us all.
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  ceciliabeltranposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You are also conveniently forgetting that there are other aspects of religious life that is actually beneficial. People who believe in G-d are not horrible people. They strive to be helpful, they form communities that are cooperative. In most places, religious life is the source of community support.
  During calamities, most people gather around churches and that becomes their temporary home.
  
  It is not all bad, and I dare say, it outweighs the bad. It is religion that paved the way to mobilizing
  civilization. It mesmerized people to gather. Joseph Campbell once said that you can see what a people values by the height of their edifices. In the renaissance, it was churches. Now what is the tallest structures? We symbolize the movements of our consciousness by what we create.
  
  Now I understand the problem that you want to fix, believe me. It is superstitiousness, you want humanity to wake-up from being drugged.
  
  But it was not intended to be a drug, it was intended to heal.
  
  If you wish to wake people up, talk about what the myths mean. Condemning them only makes
  the myth stronger because you have made yourself a villain.
  
  They say that the drones of Steve Jobs is mesmerized by a formula that Campbell has pointed out. A luminary with a vision for the future, and an enemy with an evil empire (microsoft).
  
  This is computers, and yet see how myth naturally make mobs out of individual. It's the way we're wired. Now we could either condemn myth or understand it. The myth that masks the true face of G-d can only unfold by allowing life, knowledge and myth to co-exist.
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  ceciliabeltranposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Mark if you want to free the world of maya, first sit in your own Bodhi Tree and there find the authority of the earth.
  
  Translation,
  
  Mark, you want to free the world of delusion, first, find your own path of illumination and know the harmony of existence from your own understanding.
  
  Myth, powerful stuff.
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  PieterTheProphetposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yup. Mark K, and cecilia.. we can not escape ourselves..this was like reading jazz. Thank you!
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ceciliabeltranposted 13 years ago
If you go to museums you will see many of the statues have dented noses. This is not widely known (and for good reason, people are dodging being blamed for defacing art) but the denting of the nose is a Judaic teaching. By denting the nose, you discourage people from worshipping the idols. Judaism had a breakthrough, the existence of idols prevents in the long term, understanding what it all means. But then Jewish Mysticism spread to europe and idols re-emerged in Christianity. They began as visual aids or methods of recording. But because of the great burning, the meaning got lost along the way and that's left is people kissing the feet of statues.

In the east, Buddhism abolished the idols as well in the hopes of destroying the focus on the diagrams and the form but more on the meaning. What happened was it re-emerged as Buddha in his many postures. It just never never ends.

Analyze and Preserve the meaning then teach it. Religion is about us, our consciousness and central to that is G-d, the idea of the enduring consciousness of man, its history and potential driving its evolution.
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qwarkposted 13 years ago
The brightest men in the history of mankind "KNOW" nothing.
They were and are abjectly ignorant.
When ya speak as if ya 'KNOW," about the metaphysical, ya turn me off.
Man is a "newbie" impressed by the depth of his own ignorance.
People kill each other over a "guess!"
That should tell ya something about the "intelligence" of the human animal!
Qwark
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ralwusposted 13 years ago
It seems to me that it is hard enough to prove a positive, next to nil to prove a negative.
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brotheryochananposted 13 years ago
yes he does.
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TooEasyposted 13 years ago
If by God you mean Kanye West, yes, he does exist.
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TooEasyposted 13 years ago
I hired a private investigator to find this God fellow. I saw his profile on Myspace.
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prettydarkhorseposted 13 years ago
God exists in the minds of the people.
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Home Girlposted 13 years ago
If you remove God and religions from people's lives, what's left then? World will be too naked, too complicated. That means that the only person left who is responsible for everything is YOU. - Too scary, too disturbing,and unconvenient; people don't like that.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I agree, but - we can make it. The world will still be wonderful and mysterious, and perhaps we could explore it more fully - without exploiting it?
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  Pcunixposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  We ARE the only ones responsible. Maybe if more of us realized that, we would actually work toward a better world rather than expecting some fantasy to make it right.
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motricioposted 13 years ago
mmm BAZZINGA!
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zampanoposted 13 years ago
what me worry...
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Jeramiposted 13 years ago
Mark Knowles wrote ..
I am not mandating anything other than the education of people. You seem quite happy ignoring the fact that god worship must create hierarchy, must create politics, must create wars.
- - - - -

I agree that Education is a good thing. Give me more.

But I don't get where believing in a God Must Create Hierarchy.
Organized Religion maybe, but not an individuals belief.
There is no hierarchy in individual belief regardless of how many individuals we are talking about.

I must admitt though, that I get upset when watching them TV evangilists pushing their merchandice.
I get upset and turn the danged thing off.
They aren't pushing their stuff on me and I'm not getting upset if I change the channel.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  See history. Oh - that is right - you are not a big fan of actual history - are you?
  
  Still - what is important is you defending your irrational beliefs that do not cause conflict. It is only peopel who do not believe that cause the conflict. Sorry you have never read any other books.
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Generic statement that could be directed at any comment.
  
  You are changing the subject.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No
  
  Not at all.
  
  Sorry you do no see that.
  
  Still = defending god is impotnatnt.
  
  FRom the uinbelievers.
  
  Please answer my questions. Oh - that is right - you do not need to. You have PROPHECY.
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I'm sorry; I didn't see a question
  
  Accusations maybe .. nothing that left room for an answer.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I understand. Best to avoid all the questions I have asked.
  
  You are right,. God is love. PROPHECY rules!
  
  It is all me for not believing what you sed. Not u. U Never sed nufink.
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Is that a question? Sure it is
  I just don't know the answer.
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  ceciliabeltranposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  what is with all the wrong spelling!
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  They who oppose God all go crazy after a while.
  It cannot be avoided.
  God calls it strong delusion
  i just call it
  payback! no smiting, just a swift deterioration of common sense
  lol
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  God does not exist. I am opposing people such as yourself who insist on causing conflicts - as you are doing now. The bible clearly tells you not to do this - yet you persist in doing so. Which proves to me that you do not actually believe it - you just want a fight.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  hahaha too funny. You will go to any extreme to put forth your view but when Anybody else does the same thing that is opposite to your view, they are causing conflicts. When will the lopsidedness of your extremity ever finish? Too me the obsessive phobia and anxiety of self justification is just too obvious. I am amazed at the thickness of the veil that surrounds peoples hearts and the lack of personal introspection. Say what you want but God does exist and i am sorry you think some latent or useless gene that has been persistent in people for 28 million years (lol) is just a random genetic mistake in people all over the world and throughout time. The consensus on this one is overwhelmingly against a no God scenario.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  And McDonalds is a popular hamburger chain, but I am not going to eat that rubbish. Yes - you are causing conflicts. As McChristianity has done since its inception.
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It doesn't matter the situation.
  
  Someone is going to have a concept; whether true or false ? there will always be resistance and conflict as long as humanity has free will.
  So if you think that religion causes conflict ?
  Think again BaCAUSE conflict is in and of itself.
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earnestshubposted 13 years ago
I love this guys logic and presentation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdGwUd3ye_Y

Still it does make it easy to locate all the local lunatics in one place!

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seanorjohnposted 13 years ago
mark Knowles is just trying to get extra traffic by being controversial . It is working.Ignore his religious remarks. He just wants you to publicize himself.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  yah its really hard for some people to step outta themselves even for a minute
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TilenHrovaticposted 13 years ago
For me, God is Music. It's everywhere. It's in us. It's the sound
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  pennyofheavenposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Very nice
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  nice but useless.
  What is this god of music gonna do for you? Get you a number one best seller? congrats
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purple_girlposted 13 years ago
i personally think that God exists in each and every one of us, in different ways, depends on each how we perceive Him (or it). that's all,folks!
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  pennyofheavenposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Thats a good "thats all folks"!
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paarsurreyposted 13 years ago
Does God exist?

The Creator-God does exist; and that is why we all exist?
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paarsurreyposted 13 years ago
Does God exist?

The Creator-God does exist; if at all we should doubt or question then we should doubt or question our own existences as we are like an icon on the desktop of a computer; to be deleted with one or two clicks. Our existence is temporary and measureable in time dimension created by God-Allah-YHWH who does not die and is absolute in existence.

If we reflect and see as to how we exist; that may guide us and help us to know of His existence.
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Joy56posted 13 years ago
Mark someone told me you were god, is it true, and have you any tomatoes in your greenhouse.
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Jeramiposted 13 years ago
oceansnsunsets wrote:
Cagsil, It seems you are suggesting that God needs to be defined before he can even be discussed.
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When I read this post, I had to ask myself; Can anyone else properly define who we are? how much less adequately can we define something or someone that does not reside within the same physical environment as we do?

Ask the average Hawaiian to describe what it feels like to be hit in the face with a snow ball.
Ask an Eskimo what it feels like to ride the big wave on a serf board.
This would not compare to asking someone to describe an entity whose main residence is in a different dimension.
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bidcactusreviewposted 13 years ago
there are thousands of monotheistic sects that will kill you in the name of this imagined god thing. Believers in it, swear I'm wrong, but their history is indicative of them "speaking-with-forked-tongue
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PieterTheProphetposted 13 years ago
Try this: Don't think about God.

FUN, FUN, FUN!
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PieterTheProphetposted 13 years ago
Hey? How come no one is talking about E.T(s)
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paarsurreyposted 13 years ago
Does God exist?

Sure He does.

The Creator-God does exist; if at all we should doubt or question then we should doubt or question our own existences as we are like an icon on the desktop of a computer; to be deleted with one or two clicks. Our existence is temporary and measureable in time dimension created by God-Allah-YHWH who does not die and is absolute in existence.

If we reflect and see as to how we exist; that may guide us and help us to know more of His existence.
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Nice to see you spout off your imagination.
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wildernessposted 13 years ago
Does an omniscient, omnipotent, undetectable, extra-universal ET that loves us and demands our adoration exist? Of course it does! We know this because, well because we want it to!
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