Ahmadiyya Muslim Jamaat always displays patience

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paarsurreyposted 13 years ago
Press release of Masroor Ahmad, Head of Ahmdiyya, at London:

HEAD OF AHMADIYYA MUSLIM JAMAAT RESPONDS TO BRUTAL KILLINGS OF AHMADI MUSLIMS IN INDONESIA

Hadhrat Mirza Masroor Ahmad says that perpetrators will be answerable to God Almighty

It is with great sadness that the Ahmadiyya Muslim Jamaat confirms that yesterday on 6th February 2011, 3 members of its community were martyred in Indonesia in an utterly barbaric and brutal attack.

The attack occurred in Cikeusik, south of Banten in Indonesia and was conducted by a large group of people numbering between 700 and 1,000. The attack occurred even though police had been forewarned for a number of days about an imminent attack on the local Ahmadi Muslims. Despite the warnings the police failed to take any measures or steps to prevent the attack.

It is reported that the attackers came to the local centre of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Jamaat brandishing machetes, spears, knives and other weapons. As a result 3 Ahmadi Muslims were martyred publically and 5 others were seriously injured. 2 cars, 1 house and 1 motorcycle belonging to Ahmadi Muslims were also burnt down. Thus far no one has been arrested by the police in relation to this incident.

Speaking from London in response to these brutal killings, Hadhrat Mirza Masroor Ahmad, the Head of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Jamaat said:

“This horrific attack has caused grief and pain to all Ahmadi Muslims worldwide and indeed to all peace loving people. The barbarity of the perpetrators knows no bounds; indeed people watching the merciless beatings were clapping and cheering. The local police and authorities failed to protect the Ahmadi Muslims and allowed them to be exposed to this cruel and brutal attack.

Whenever such attacks occur the Ahmadiyya Muslim Jamaat both in Indonesia and worldwide always displays patience and seeks solace not in revenge or violence but through prayers to God Almighty and this will always remain the case. It is however certain that those who have inflicted these cruelties will be answerable to God Almighty and will have to face His punishment. In the meantime the Ahmadiyya Muslim Jamaat will continue to bow down in front of the One God and seek His Protection and Help.”

The Ahmadiyya Muslim Jamaat calls on the Indonesian Government to fulfil its mandate to protect all of its citizens, regardless of religion. It is also hereby clarified that no Ahmadi Muslim was involved in any form of provocation whatsoever and that these attacks were motivated simply due to the fact that the victims were members of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Jamaat. It is a tragedy that these Ahmadi Muslims were martyred in the most barbaric way because they chose to live their lives by the Ahmadiyya motto of ‘Love for All, Hatred for None’.

A further Press Release with particulars of the deceased and further details will soon be issued.
End
(Further Info: press@ahmadiyya.org.uk)
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I am so sorry. They sound as if they are a peaceful people. I hope the Indonesian government can find a way to protect its citizens from this type of brutality.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  And, who made that clarification, exactly? If the attacks were motivated due to the fact the victims were members of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Jamaat, who exactly made that declaration?
  
  Perhaps, they were also part of the same bowling team or classic rock dance band? Someone would have to take responsibility for the killings stating the reason for the attacks.
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  But Beelzedad. They were peaceful people. It doesn't matter what their religion. They were murdered in a most horrible way. It's still sad.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  We have only one biased side to the story produced here by an Islamic propagandist. We need to get the whole story here.
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  They're dead from unspeakable violence. It doesn't matter who, or what, they were. I find it difficult to believe that the most important thing you see is the fact that a muslim posted this story. I'm sure you have your reasons, I just can't fathom them.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No, the fact that a biased Islamic propagandist posted this story. How do you know it wasn't provoked by the Ahmadiyya?
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Well, I don't know.I would think being clubbed to death would be outside the bounds for any execution. I could be wrong. It is simply that the barbaric nature of the world outside our country is sometimes more appalling than I care to hear about. There should be laws against such as that. I feel sorry that anyone has to live that way. No matter what their beliefs.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  What do you mean barbaric? Those are the values of the Quran in practice.
  
  Just have a look at paar's posts, he does little more than create conflict with his Islamic beliefs.
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It doesn't make it right. I don't know what their practices are. I do know that expecting basic human rights for others shouldn't be seen as a religious belief. At least I don't think so. If it is, I'm sure you wil enlighten me.
  
  I don't mean to sound testy. I simply don't understand how anyone could do this to another person. I've never been angry enough to raise a hand against anyone. Much less club them to death. I don't get what's behind a desire for violence. I know you'll say it's religion, but I don't see any evidence that it stops there.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It isn't, human rights are a non-issue with religions.
  
  You could look at your own religions past and present to see violence in the name of a god. Nothing different there.
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Beelzedad, my beliefs are my beliefs. They have nothing to do with those of any other human being. I use the term Christian, because I know of no other word to use. It does not affiliate me with other humans, or their mind set. It simply means I believe in the Resurrection. It does not make me Catholic or Protestant. I'm me. As you are you. I don't understand why I have to continually feel as if people are trying to box me into admitting a belief in something I can only identify with as you can. That is our collective past. Yours and mine. End of story. Unless, of course, you are from another planet, in which case I could definitely find more interesting things to talk about.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Not really, they are the beliefs you were indoctrinated with as a child, and they are not YOUR beliefs, either, they are the beliefs of superstitious men centuries ago, men who believed that lightning and thunder were gods gone mad.
  
  Perhaps, not in every detail, but certainly the same general beliefs of any other Christian. And, if they are your personal beliefs not shared by any others, then clearly, you have created your own personal god, also not shared by any others. Notice this says more about what you want to believe as opposed to what you're supposed to believe.
  
  Good for you. Unfortunately, zombification hasn't quite been perfected yet.
  
  Yes, and it's a past we should all be ashamed of and we should do everything in our power to correct the mistakes of the past rather than embrace them for the future.
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I agree things should be corrected. I'll be honest, I've seen your posts about not focusing on the individual, but this observation isn't about you. Except as what I'm looking at. Your avatar and screen name seem at odds with your stand on religion. The symbolism is hard to ignore. If there's a point you're trying to make, other than we need to kill that guy named god, I'm missing it. You might want to be a little less subtle.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, but don't you think you should instead focus on the subject matter and the content rather than my avatar?
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Well, it is difficult. I've always liked Einstein. But the point is, is there some underlying message I'm missing? Or is the whole argument simply that we need to walk away from the concept of God?
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Continuing to embrace gods does nothing but cause conflict, division and ignorance. You be the judge.
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  you mean all belief has to go, for the good of man? that sounds so final. you don't know of one faith structure that falls into the category of peaceful?
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  None that haven't had a long history of bloodshed, torture, aggression, hatred, racism, bigotry, oppression and ignorance, do you?
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Amish?
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  christiansisterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That applies to all mankind. These are human attributes.
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  christiansisterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  They are for the quest of power and control and importance.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Fueled by religions, but vanquished with reason and rationale.
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  christiansisterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Even atheists and all other groups suffer from this defect. Can you enlighten me of anything different?
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, I'm sure believers will lump non-believers into their "sin infested" world of magic and mystery, or "defects" as you call them. The difference is that non-believers have actually developed morals and ethics, unknown to believers who follow their gods rules and regulations... sometimes... usually not, though.
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  christiansisterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I did not lump anybody together I included all mankind. I am not dividing. There is no us and them. We all live in this world dependent. And anybody who believes otherwise I would like to ask them to please explain it to me. How they think or exist independently?
  Do you rely on oil on the grocery store, on the light company?
  We are all truly weak and pathetic. No man is an island. Do you live independent or are you at the mercy of the world?
  
  If you give this careful consideration you will see that you are powerless to change anything on your own other than the time you spend on this Earth and that you also have the choice to alter other peoples lives to the extent with which you have been given the power with your own small voice or actions
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  christiansisterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  And I do not call your voice small alone. We all have but a small voice in the global scene.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Religions conquer and divide us all. You can easily draw the "us and them" lines between Christians and Muslims, for example, or even within Christianity or Islam themselves do we see violence, hatred, racism, bigotry, oppression and murder. This thread is proof positive of that.
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  christiansisterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  And to state a fact if you read thru this thread you will see it is I who is including all man. You are the one dividing mans actions and not very fairly I would say. Because it is ridiculous to me that you could possibly link this type of behavior to religion and not the willingness of man to act horribly against his neighbor. So it is all God's fault?
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  christiansisterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It is good to see you again to good sir.
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  paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Just _ curious, I appreciate your response.
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No problem. I just wish we could all live in peace.
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christiansisterposted 13 years ago
paarsurrey I have been off hubpages for awhile glad to see you back.
Who attacked and murdered them?
Who was responsible for this atrocious behavior?
Im sorry it was not clear in the thread I dont believe, or did I miss it?
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  paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You may watch the incident:
  
  http://www.youtube.com/verify_age?next_ … uXhx0Mc_pA
  
  Ahmadi peaceful Muslims are being persecuted in many countries, Pakistan,Bangladesh,India,Indonesia,Egypt and in the Middle East;only because we are peaceful.
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christiansisterposted 13 years ago
Did everybody leave?
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christiansisterposted 13 years ago
Paar this is your thread did you leave? Who is responsible for this atrocity?
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  paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I was on the job, sorry.
  
  The extremist Muslim are responsible for this bad act; they don't act on the truthful teachings of Quran/Islam/Muhammad.
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Someone needs to get a handle on those guys (the extremists). Is there no one within your faith actively trying? I know it is hard, but with the monetary resources they have they are threatening to tear our world apart. I wish the peaceful muslims would take a firmer stand against them. It would go a long way in making the world a little more comfortable with your faith.
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christiansisterposted 13 years ago
and Beelzedad I am not being smart I am serious you exercise my soul so much.
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christiansisterposted 13 years ago
just_curious I love your spunk!
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks. It's hard sometimes. I feel like the road runner being chased by the coyote with these atheists at times.
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  christiansisterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Wait till a so called Christian starts dogging you. That is when it hurts. But, you get used to having your own true voice. Because as you said, Just because we call ourselves Christian everyone automatically think we believe the same things to a tee.
  That is why Jesus said that we should pray for the "Helper" and he will direct us in how we should go. I have been trashed by Christians as much as I have non Christians. Christianity is not my religion. It is the way I live my life.
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes. I've gotten that several times. I believe your heart should lead you. No one else. I had started to think there were no people like me out there. Over the last couple of days I've started running across them. It's so nice to meet you. Look forward to reading your posts on this forum.
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  christiansisterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It is my privilege to meet you too. I love hubpages but can only take it for spurts at a time. I love the people here and that we can come together and express and exchange ideas and opinions. It helps me to grow every time I read into someone else's viewpoint. And I love the stimulating conversations. I am glad that you are here. And I have enjoyed reading your responses
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  paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I alos enjoy other's opinions; even if they differ with me.It is a way to bridge gaps between cultures, civilisation, socienties and the individual; isolation only locks the understanding while dialogue open it.
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  christiansisterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I so, so, so agree with you paar
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christiansisterposted 13 years ago
And tell me of these morals and ethics you claim I do not live by?
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christiansisterposted 13 years ago
And yes "Defect" is truly the word I intended.

What other word can express the situation of any one person feeling the need to cause suffering and pain on another person for any reason other than self-defense what so ever in my eyes is a very sad defect.
Because I do not believe we are born this way. Something in this world caused hurt and self doubt and then the mission to find self-worth in a skewed way culminates in these behaviors. And that is common to all peoples religious or not.
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christiansisterposted 13 years ago
Dear Paar,
Thank you for your response. This only reinforces my belief that atrocious behavior is a human condition. Not a condition brought on by a certain religion or sect.

And the murder of one person is a tragedy. But, it happens countless times a day around the world, carried out by people of all faiths or of no faith at all.

Sadly, this kind of tragedy is the making of mankind not a religion.

If it were truly confined to religion it would be easy too rid ourselves of it. Just dissolve the religion. But, it is no so confined is it?

It is a malady of all mankind and is truly a shame and a waste of time and life.

And sooo useless. It is sad. All actions are seen and we will all give an account. And then judged and placed accordingly.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  What? These murders were completely driven by religious beliefs, the different Islamic sects killing each other over their Quran.
  
  Paar even admitted himself, "extremist Muslim are responsible for this bad act".
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  christiansisterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  So if we get rid of the religions in the world people will stop killing and torturing each other? Really!?!?!
  
  That does prove my point. People of all faiths and no faith at all, commit horrific things, but if you still need proof. Watch the news sometime.
  
  There are plenty religion haters killing also.
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christiansisterposted 13 years ago
That is like saying because police brutality exists we should throw out the legal system. That would solve all our problems right? I don't think so.

It would only make a much bigger mess!
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Your religion is divisive and causes conflicts - and the fact that there are other divisive things around does not excuse that fact.
  
  It obviously does no good - let us sit down and decide on a better way - without the Invisible Super Being which none of you actually believe in? What do you say cousin?
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  christiansisterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  And if you read any of my hubs you would see that I have certain views that even a lot of Christians have issues with because I do not subscribe to all the traditional views of Christianity. So you are not alone in thinking I am totally off base and a bit off kilter.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  All Christian re-write the bible to suit their personal beliefs. This is why there are 48,000 different cults and you are always fighting.
  
  But - seriously - If I called myself a Nazi - I would like to bet you have some notions about what that entailed. Why is the first thing you want to tell me about yourself your irrational belief system?
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christiansisterposted 13 years ago
I would much rather be your sister than cousin, but I guess because I am a Christian that tie is just too close.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No - you are actually my cousin. I have no sisters. Shall I explain basic biological relationships to you?
  
  I see you did not answer the question either.
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  christiansisterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No explanation needed I graduated nursing school. I have a decent grasp on biology. But, I do believe I answered your question. I just type a bit slow. Sorry. If I did not please ask your kookie cousin one more time.
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  christiansisterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  So that you know right up front how much credit to give my thoughts from the beginning. Because it seems that my intelligence as a human being in your eyes is much tied to my irrational beliefs. That way you know you don't want to waste too much time on my ridiculous and totally antiquated point of view.
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hi CS. You probably already now this, but Mark isn't all bad. He's a little pussy cat who has an over developed idea of the size of his claws. If you've never done battle with him, he settles down after a while and actually has a very interesting viewpoint. He just needs a few posts to get this out of his system.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I must admit to automatically devaluing anything said by some one who's main concern is sharing their irrational belief system - yes. Call me bigoted if you like - but this is something I have learned by experience.
  
  I find this almost always is their main priority. You have chosen a username deliberately to distance yourself from others who are not Christians.
  
  As it is so important to you - should I not take that into consideration when evaluating the things you say?
  
  Admittedly - there is a pretty broad spectrum of what constitutes a "Christian" - and I have yet to determine exactly how insane your beliefs are.
  
  Do you think the earth is only 6,000 years old?
  Do you think Jesus was a real person or a mythical figure?
  Do you think you will live forever if you say the majik words "I accept Jesus Christ as my personal savior"?
  Are you a Mormon?
  
  How you answer will depend how much weight I give to your statements over and above the usual respect I give to any one's opinion.
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christiansisterposted 13 years ago
I will try to get them all...

Earth Age: I think that no one has enough factual intelligence for me to have a certainty about the age of the Earth. I think all hypothesis' are just that and there is no hard proof for me to make that determination for myself.

I do believe that Jesus did and does exist.

I believe that we live forever. I also believe that you will live forever.

No I am not a Mormon.

I did however grow up in destitute poverty,

with excessive abuse physical and sexual and emotional, I married early to leave home to find only the same things. I worked my way thru Nursing school with 4 children on my own with no child support. I did get food stamps though, but have paid that back in taxes since (I feel)
Have live thru many horrific situations. I have had my face stomped in, my throat cut, my collar bone broken and several other hardships that I have seen, and none of these things were by Christians. I was raised in a home that gave religion no consideration. I know this is probably TMI but if you really want to judge my thoughts you need to have a clue as to where I come from. J_C I love conversing with Mark, he expands me.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry to hear you have had a rough ride, And glad if it helps to speak of it - but I am not certain it is relevant to our discussion. Abuse is not exclusively a Christian past time either.
  
  The main thing is - you are not a Mormon......
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  christiansisterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You seriously made me laugh out loud. I only posted these facts so that you would have some merit other than my Christianity to know how to size me up;)
  But, they are all true and many other things I could tell you. But, that is for another day.
  
  And what you said is exactly true abuse is not exclusively Christian. I beleive that has been my point all along.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No - your point seems to be that we should not hold Christianity accountable for the actions of the members who we both agree are no better than your garden variety pedophile or abuser.
  
  Which means - it is not a viable belief system. You defending it by saying other non-christians can be abusers is no defense at all.
  
  Religion has for too long had a free pass. I think we ave developed the ethics we have in spite of this religion - not because of it.
  
  Christianity causes division and conflicts. Lets accept that it does not work and look for a way of developing a system we might actually follow?
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  christiansisterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Any logical suggestions. Any system that will make this bias world fair and unbiased.
  What system would have to change? Just religion. No you would have to restructure every instituted program to date.
  
  Fair and unbiased these are figments of the imagination.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I never mentioned the words "fair" or "unbiased". In any case - I would call these things subjective rather than figments of my imagination - that is where god comes in.
  
  I am simply suggesting we could - jointly - discuss what needs to be done to improve to develop as a species and a culture, leaving the needs and wants of an Invisible Super Being out of the picture.
  
  What is wrong with that?
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  christiansisterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Isn't fair and unbias the opposite of divisive and separating the terms you used for religion?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No. Not at all.
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christiansisterposted 13 years ago
And the reason I chose my name is because that is who I am.
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christiansisterposted 13 years ago
The LOL moment The main thing is - you are not a Mormon.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Mormons give me the heebie jeebies. They have some very funny beliefs.
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christiansisterposted 13 years ago
Oh and don't be sorry for my ride. I like who I am today and I am a very strong resourceful woman who can weather just about any storm. With out the perils of the past, I probably would not be able to say that. Don't cry for me cause I am not crying. I have lived thru Hell and come out whole.
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christiansisterposted 13 years ago
"I am simply suggesting we could - jointly - discuss what needs to be done to improve to develop as a species and a culture, leaving the needs and wants of an Invisible Super Being out of the picture.

What is wrong with that?"
There is absolutely, positively nothing wrong with that.

The problem is that for the life of me I cannot figure out how you would make selfish, greedy, controlling, hurting people care about one another more than the petty disagreements they perceive they have.

And how to make the true monsters in the World who maliciously and willfully harm other people for enjoyment or gratification to stop.

And how to make your neighbor more important than your bank account.

If we could figure out just a small piece of that, Then I know for definite we are the most intelligent generation.

And Im game.
So get the ball rolling to me.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  All right. We need to lose religion, central banks and any artificial rationing of resources we can. Drop the silly notion of accountability after death, and take responsibility now.
  
  What do you think?
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  christiansisterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Maybe you should start a thread that addresses how those actions would actually make a better tomorrow. And not throw us into complete anarchy and the steps that are necessary to get us there.
  
  But, I do not see how my not believing that this life is the only life I get effects those issues.
  
  Ideals are easy, concrete steps on the other hand are very difficult.
  
  Paar, I am so sorry! I came here to gain a little insight on the plight of Muslim persecution but unfortunately that is not what I found. In Peace and Love Always...
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I am not certain we can do it without going through anarchy - which is probably one of the steps we need to take.
  
  Of course you do not understand why the fact that you believe this life is simply a step on the way to your eternal life - which is far, far more important to you is part of the problem. Until you do - it is not really worth discussing anything - is it?
  
  Once you understand that this is it - you will understand why we need to change. Not for the silly notion that all will be OK when you are dead. But for now.
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  christiansisterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Mark,
  To me it seems that you are under the impression that Christians sit around and are not concerned with the plight of others or the issues that we face as the Human Race. And we are just waiting around for Death to rescue us.
  
  And you stated that I did not think Christians should be held accountable for their actions. On the contrary, the thought of living beyond this life assures me that we will most definitely be held accountable for our actions good or bad. And that truly nothing you do is in vain. And nothing you do is secret.
  
  Before I came to this realization, I was angry and hateful and very upset about the injustice and unfairness of this life. I guess you have not known this feeling, But I have and have seen some very bad situations and places that flow freely with injustice.
  
  Before, I believed in Life after Earth, I was very ferocious in my thoughts of retribution. And believe me I was furious. And my actions were many times less than stellar. And I did not have the concept in my mind that what I do (secretly or openly) was not a secret. My actions would face me again one day.
  
  This realization did the opposite of what it seems you think it does.
  
  It made me a much nicer person. It gave me the ability to forgive my fellow man much more easily. It gave me a sense that this life and what we do in it is not futile.
  
  It also helped me to be more compassionate and caring.
  
  Because now, if you are ugly to me I realize that even if the situation is very unfair and unjust I dont have to think in my mind "Oh well, thats just the way it is."
  
  No. There will be a time when we face the injustice in ourselves and our actions.
  
  That concept made me give much more thought to the way I treat people and the actions that I take. That is the one thing that does make this life fair.
  
  I realize that there are many, many examples of Christians acting badly and not exhibiting the characteristics that we should, but that is true in all sects of people.
  
  It seems that fortunately for you, you have never faced injustice on a grand scale. If so maybe you would know what it is like to be powerless in the World of Mans making. And seek answers beyond yourself.
  
  And if that works for you that is great for you. And you do not see me questioning your intelligence because because you choose to live for this life only.
  
  And I do not prejudge you because I have been hurt and persecuted by people that think like you. Get all you can in this life because it is all you have. And your actions will never be accounted for, so have at it.
  
  But, you do, however, prejudge me because I happen to believe the opposite.
  
  Not once have I belittled your beliefs or your intelligence. And if you said you were a "Nazi" it would not undermine your intelligence in my eyes, but your motives would definitely be under constant scrutiny. Because I have know people on a very personal level that carry those ideals.
  
  And thru all of this, not once have I judged your intelligence or your character, but you have done so to me repeatedly.
  
  Last note Death is a reality of life. It is not a chance happening. No matter what, we all have a date with Death. Working as a nurse I have met him on call many times. And he does not scare me. And when he comes I am ok with it, but until then I am going to try to be as beautiful a person as I can humanly be to anyone I can.
  
  Oh and please don't correct me I do not really think Death is a person. Just metaphorics at work.
  
  It is always such a pleasure bending words with you. You make me search my soul and my intelligence.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
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  christiansisterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry, when words flow it is hard to stem. I was not only talking about very old people, my mother died at 54 and she was not a Christian at all and yes I was with her at the time. Did I beat her over the head with Salvation because she was out of time? No, I listened to her and comforted her and told her that I love her.
  
  And I never force my beliefs on anyone nor do I judge them. Have I once judged you or belittled you? And yes I know what it is like to not answer the door because their is someone outside questioning my salvation. I know what it feels like to defend myself to Christians as well as non Christians.
  
  I have 6 children in this World. I have scrapped and kicked my way through raising them. That is why I dont see your point. And anarchy may be what it takes in your eyes and it may be necessary to change things the way you want them changed.
  
  But, that only works if you or yours do not get destroyed in the fall out. For those dear people I don't beleive they would think it made things any better. But, I guess too bad for them.
  What is to be said to them? "Sorry Dude, it was better for the rest of us." TOO BAD.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Did you spend 54 years telling her she was going to be judged for the things she had done in this life? Because that is what you have told me several times already - and I only just met you.
  
  Don't even realize you are doing it - do you?
  
  Anarchy is lack of government - nothing more or less. But - if we are goingto make some changes - the ones who rule us are going to put up a fight.
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  christiansisterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I cannot give you statistics as you have asked. I only have what I have seen. And if I go into telling you about those experiences you would not count me credible.
  
  And yes my mother had a front door on her house also. She faced ridicule just like we all do.
  
  Mark if you read back through this Religious post. And it is a religious post, you will see that the attacker is you. I have never attacked you or judged you. I have only defended my right to believe as I choose.
  
  I do not go to posts on atheism and condemn and judge the people in that thread. I go to listen and to gain insight, most of the time I don't even comment. I just learn.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Judging me here:
  
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christiansisterposted 13 years ago
And you may also be surprised (or not) at the change of thoughts and heart of many people on their Deathbed.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No really - no. My whole life people like you have been threatening me with judgment for the things I have done after I am dead. And giving me a list of things I will be punished or rewarded for.
  
  Plus - my Grand dad is 96 years old and barely remember who he is. Pretty sure most old people will change their ideas after a lifetime of threats from you guys with Death knocking on the door.
  
  I understand the comfort you derive from the idea that you will be rewarded after death for your suffering here.
  
  Unfortunately - this is utter nonsense and prevents you from fully engaging in the here and now.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, please do explain that and hopefully provide some statistics to back up your claim.
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christiansisterposted 13 years ago
But, if you are still up for that Thread I am game as long as it is about true issues and not just

"Dump the afterlife stuff and live and think like me."
I have already been there and it does not work for me. It just makes me see how ugly humans really are. Myself included
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Mark Knowlesposted 13 years ago
This is my issue with your religion:

Judging me:

I do no such things. I am accountable for my actions - to me and my society.

Asking me to not do exactly what you have done:

Too much other stuff. It is easier to stick to one or two points in a linear thread like this.
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christiansisterposted 13 years ago
History tends to show that people in my family do not live long enough to lose their minds to age.
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christiansisterposted 13 years ago
Or fret over what someone else thinks they need to do. :0 We are a stubborn people on both sides of the fence.
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christiansisterposted 13 years ago
Mark not once have I said that you are condemned or tried to change your mind on how you feel. Unfortunately, those are notions put in your head before me. If you would please direct me to anything that I have said to that nature please point it out to me because I did not intend for that to be what you got out of our conversation.
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christiansisterposted 13 years ago
That is not judging you. Judging you how? It is an assumption not a judgement.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I see. So judging and assumptions are different?
  
  Judging - Bad.
  Assumptions - Good.
  
  Why have you devolved this into the usual "defend the faith!" nonsense that you claimed you were not doing?
  
  I was trying to have a discussion and you keep telling me I will be judged for my actions.
  
  That is what your religion does.
  
  How do you expect to learn anything? You claimed to want to learn from my opinions - now you are accusing me of attacking you for pointing out that your beliefs are part of the problem?
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  christiansisterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No, you keep saying that I am attacking you. Assumptions are Human. You have them just as well as I. You have a whole bag of them that you dumped out in this thread.
  
  Saying that I am not fully engaged in life
  
  That I believe Christians should not be held accountable.
  
  I never said that I was not defending the Faith. I so truly am. I said that I am not judging you for trashing it.
  
  I am learning. I only used the word attacking because you claim that I was doing it.
  
  Please direct me to one place where I told you that your beleif is I dont remember how you put it but the word ridiculous stands out in my mind. I will go thru here again in case I am mistaken (because I am just as prone as you) to see if I have and if that proves to be the case I will publicly apologize because that is not my motive. And was purely accidental.
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christiansisterposted 13 years ago
Is that assumption wrong? Have you been so tormented that you were in search of answers beyond yourself?
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christiansisterposted 13 years ago
And if so, what was the outcome?
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christiansisterposted 13 years ago
unfortunately, my eyes are shackled (I guess) because I do not once see where I judged you or belittled your Belief or even said anything to the nature of "You better change boy or you are going to Hell."

I personally dont assume to know who will be going to Hell.

I just know that I don't want to go.

And I dont even worry about that. That is the concept that some Christians use to call me blasphemous.

Because I think differently. I do not think the "Afterlife" is an invitation only event. And I certainly do know the stuff that you say about being beat over the head with Christian doctrine.
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christiansisterposted 13 years ago
Even more since I choose to call myself a Christian
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hmm - Persecuted for your beliefs.
  
  Dear me.
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christiansisterposted 13 years ago
I do not see where you have made a case that my belief is truly a part of the mess here.

You have not explained to me how being a Christian is part of the problem. The problem is Humanly not Godly. Anyone that feels it is their right to hurt or abuse others because of their beliefs has missed the whole point in my eyes. And are dead wrong.
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christiansisterposted 13 years ago
Correction... Are dead wrong in my eyes.
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christiansisterposted 13 years ago
I am curious Mark... When you do face gross injustice how do you find solace?

I correct my assumption that you have not had too. Sorry
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I pick myself up and try to learn from the experience. I find no solace in the idea that I will be rewarded in heaven and honestly do not understand why anyone would.
  
  No apology needed.
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christiansisterposted 13 years ago
Well Mark,
I do have to go for now. I do want to be a part of this world enough to have a job and pay taxes, and that job is calling now.

But, I will be checking in because I really am interested in your point of perspective and I truly do respect you as an intelligent man.

And word bending with you is so much fun and educational, even though you think I am not learning anything because I am blinded by my Faith. Rest assured that is so truly not the case.
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paarsurreyposted 13 years ago
I think if the whole religious and secular people point this injustice to the Indonesian Government; they might improve.
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paarsurreyposted 13 years ago
Ahmadiyya Muslim present the truthful and peaceful teachings of Quran/Islam/Muhammad which are in fact also teachings of all the Messengers Prophets like Moses, Jesus, Buddha and Krishna. Ahmadiyya believe in peaceful dialogue and present their beliefs with rational and reasonable arguments; they observe patience.

All religions unite in Ahmadiyya, peacefully.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Funny how most of your posts against the Christian religion contradicts your claims of "peaceful dialogue, rational and reasonable arguments and patience".
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paarsurreyposted 13 years ago
Stating facts with reasonable arguments is not being belligerent or hostile and is not against the norms of a peaceful dialogue.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Therein lies the confusion, the contradiction and the very heart of the problem.
  reply report

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