How to Become Vice President - Never use the P-Word!

1. 61

   knolyourselfposted 15 years ago

   In furtherance of the one/two state solution discussion: If the one state
   is to be a democracy, and majority rules, and the Palistinians are the majority, does anybody think the Israelis would accept that?

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2. 86

   livelongerposted 15 years ago

   Paraglider: I don't think Jerusalem is any worse than the general state of things there. There are countries that function on a separation: Azerbaijan is one I can think of (and the separated part, Nakhichevan, is not the source of friction with its neighbor, Armenia). Russia also has Kaliningrad.
   
   knolyourself: No. That's been my point. Arguing for a single state in this day and age will make your voice irrelevant to the Israelis.

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   1. 59

      Teresa McGurkposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      It is true that there are several examples of countries or states can only co-exist through maintaining separate governance, as the division of Ireland in the early twentieth century shows.  But it's a strange, unnatural way to live.  Now, a hundred years later, Irish people are demonstrating their unity as one people, separate from the very governance that divided them in the first place.  This would appear to be a natural social groundswell of public perception of identity:  more and more Irish people from the North are identifying themselves as "Irish", not British or "Northern Irish."  It has nothing to do with religion and doesn't seem to have reached the point yet where it has significant impact on politics, other than genuine and most welcome benefits to the peace process.  I look forward to this trend continuing, and if it has been a necessary mechanism promoting temporary survival as a precursor to unity in the long term, then it will, I suppose, have been worth it.  And if it is a workable mechanism, then it should perhaps be considered in the geographical region of Palestine -- but only as a first step towards the later unification of the region as one state, and without prejudice to either party.
      
      Oh dear.  There I go being simplistic again.

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      1. 86

         livelongerposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         I think you're right, but none of this would be happening if the violence and rancor hadn't died down. It's hard to accept your neighbor as a fellow citizen when they're bombing you and telling you how much they hate you all the time. It will take a few generations even in Northern Ireland. It will take far longer in Israel/Palestine, if ever. There are limits to how much an analogy can apply to a different situation.

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3. 61

   knolyourselfposted 15 years ago

   "And if it is a workable mechanism, then it should perhaps be considered in the geographical region of Palestine"
   In no country in the world does citizenship require one to be of a racial and religious identity exclusively except Israel. I believe that is suppose to be antithetical to everything America stands for.

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   1. 82

      LondonGirlposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      But it's not true. There is the Right of Return, but Israel also has a 20% Arab population, and non-Jewish immigration rules for spouses etc.

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4. 61

   knolyourselfposted 15 years ago

   "But it's not true. There is the Right of Return, but Israel also has a 20% Arab population, and non-Jewish immigration rules for spouses etc." Think we been thru this before. There is no right of return for the Palestinians who left or were driven out of Israel. When I was in Israel there were Palestinian citizens, who are-so only because they were there before the state of Israel. Looked to me like ghettos, where they were second class citizens. Not sure if this is still true, but expect it would be.

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5. 66

   Make Moneyposted 15 years ago

   Corpus separatum is Latin for "separated body". The 1947 UN Partition Plan used this term to refer to a proposed internationally administered zone to include Jerusalem and some nearby towns such as Bethlehem and Ein Karim, that was, "in view of its association with three world religions" to be "accorded special and separate treatment from the rest of Palestine and should be placed under effective United Nations control". United Nations General Assembly Resolution 194, 11 December 1948 established a United Nations Conciliation Commission and reaffirmed this statement.

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6. 81

   ReuVeraposted 15 years ago

   Here I am again, but I announce that I haven’t read any posts since I was absent and most likely I will not read anything after, because arguments will be endless. I stopped by just and only to tell something I completely overlooked before. Many authors here were accusing Jews of grabbing Arabs lands in Palestine in the beginning of the 20th century.  First of all just to remind what was said here earlier- there was no any country there before the distribution of lands in 1947 by League of Nations (UN predecessor).  Many nations lived there (Jews included), but the population was very scares.
   When Jews started to move to the region, they WERE BUYING LANDS there. This is the fact that was overlooked here. Lands were uncultivated and owned mostly by absentee landlords, living elsewhere.  Jews were paying high prices for those empty lands.
   http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso … stine.html
   When their settlements started to prosper, former landlords tendered to break agreements and wanted to grab the lands back. This is when the Jews formed armed detached forces for protection of their settlements. After the big mess during 1921, when local Arabs in rage that was provoked by Mufti Hag' Amin El-Husaini, robed and destroyed many stores and workshops, crops of Jews and even Jews were killed, and since the British just stood aside and did nothing to stop the mess, Jews realized that they need a protection, so they formed a new organization named "Haagana" meaning "the defense". Later it splat into 2 organizations: Haezel and Haagana. There were differences in ideologies, Haagana helped legally the Britain and fought them at the same time on other planes (like rising new settlements, bringing refugees from Europe illegally and more).
   Ezel were more violent, and later they splat in 2 too, to Lehi and Ezel.
   You may call those groups as terroristic. But I hope you understand why they were doing all what they were doing; they tried to save people from the Nazis, the war and the holocaust. As the country became a reality, Haagana turned into Tsava Haagana leIsrael, translation: Israeli Defense Forces. Other groups seized to exist.
   The hymn of Palestine speaks of revenge, where hymn of Israel of hope for peace and home:
   
   
   Palestine anthem:
   
   My country, my land, land of my ancestors
   My country, my country, my country
   My people, people of perpetuity
   With my determination, my fire and the volcano of my revenge
   With the longing in my blood for my land and my home
   I have climbed the mountains and fought the wars
   I have conquered the impossible, and crossed the frontiers
   My country, my country, my country
   My people, people of perpetuity
   With the resolve of the winds and the fire of the guns
   And the determination of my nation in the land of struggle
   Palestine is my home, Palestine is my fire, Palestine is my revenge and the land of endurance
   My country, my country, my country
   My people, people of perpetuity
   By the oath under the shade of the flag
   By my land and nation, and the fire of pain
   I will live as a fida'i*, I will remain a fida'i, I will end as a fida'i - until my country returns
   My country, people of perpetuity.
   
   * fida'i = one who risks his life voluntarily.
   
   Israeli anthem: Hatikva (The hope)
   
   As long as the Jewish spirit
   Is yearning deep in the heart,
   With eyes turned toward the East,
   Looking toward Zion,
   
   Our hope is not yet lost,
   the hope of two thousand years,
   to be a free nation in our land,
   the land of Zion and Jerusalem.
   
   I remind you again- Jewish settlers were BUYING lands in the region. I presume you will find some fault anyway with the Jews here.
   Read more here: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso … stine.html

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7. 66

   Make Moneyposted 15 years ago

   Both Zionist political violence and Early Zionist Terrorist Gangs give a different perspective and list some early examples of Jewish-Zionist terror.

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8. 66

   Make Moneyposted 15 years ago

   "Mass killing is the symptoms of hate and evil."  Why do you hate the Palestinians then?  Or are you trying to blame the Palestinians for Israel killing them, like that twisted thought of Golda Myer?

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   1. 58

      Vladimir Uhriposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      I do not hate anyone. I love people. And it is different between us. I hate only evil and evil system. But you cannot see difference. I have many Arabs friends.
      Have you ever been in Jordan, Israel etc? I was. Have you live in communistic hell? I did. I just see things differently, which you cannot see.
      One has to be objective. Going to place let say shopping center and explode, is not fun at all. And what about all fight and revolutionary terrorism around the world?
      I will write the story about what happen to my neighbor village in the past by Turks. You will be surprised. 
         
      To Para: Calling me an idiot, it reveals your character. 
      Give me the reason, why I should love your system and your thinking?

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9. 86

   livelongerposted 15 years ago

   Vladimir: The issue for some of us (myself included) is not that Israel responded to the endless shelling by Hamas, but by how much. It was clearly not meant to take away their shelling capabilities or even serve as a deterrent; it was meant as punishment or a message, one whose damage and death was borne in very large part by civilians.

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   1. 60

      VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Livelonger may suggest ways to exclude civilians while bombing by Israel.  As the protesters are civilians themselves, how will you expect that they should not be hurt?   
      A new missile or bomb should be invented which will attack only military and leave civilians. Every Govt. has a responsibility to take away civilians from the area of conflict and protect them.  Why has not Hamas done that ?

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      1. 79

         Uninvited Writerposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         And where, pray tell, can people go when all the ways out are blocked and school and hospitals are bombed?

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      2. 86

         livelongerposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         I'm not going to make excuses for Hamas's deplorable behavior. But you don't punish Hamas by blowing up civilians. A 40% civilian death toll (if that's what it is) is unacceptable. If that's due to the fact that Hamas hides behind civilians - which is, unsurprisingly, they've done - and modern technology, of which Israel has the best, still isn't good enough at targeting enemy combatants alone, then Israel should look at a ground invasion. Less desirable on a number of fronts, but morally superior to an air invasion with such a high "collateral damage" rate.

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         1. 58

            Vladimir Uhriposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            To all liberals:
            I am sorry you still do not get it. Germans, Russians did the same what Hamas does. I was in the middle of war. They came to schools and pot their truck in the driveways. They were hidden in our home's driveways. The same to the hospitals. You let yourself kill just because it is school ground, churches or Masques they are shutting out? They are using human's shield and show how other side hurt the people. Don't you get it? It is the propaganda. In Russia they had the schools to teach propagandists.

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            1. 86

               livelongerposted 15 years agoin reply to this

               What exactly are you saying?

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               1. 60

                  countrywomenposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                  Yes even I have the same question? Are you suggesting that the Palestinian "propaganda" is responsible for this. And also I don't know about others but I am neither a liberal nor a conservative but the ground reality is that 1300 Palestinians died  and millions of dollars would be needed to rebuild Gaza in these tough times. It is sad to see when most of us who are neither from Israel or Palestine but feel the other side is victim of propaganda (at least I can understand ReuVera who is from Israel can get personal about it)

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               2. 78

                  Sufidreamerposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                  I think he is saying that we are too stupid to understand the perils of propaganda. Maybe they don't teach it in Liberal School.

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                  1. 65

                     Ralph Deedsposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                     Just let the facts speak for themselves--1,300 Palestinian deaths, half civilians vs. 13 Israeli soldiers killed. 24 Israelis killed in the past 8 years by rockets.

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10. 66

    Make Moneyposted 15 years ago

    Vladimir you immigrated from Russia where they teach propaganda in schools, the Palestinians didn't.  So who is posting the propaganda?

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11. 88

    Paragliderposted 15 years ago

    Vladimir is apparently saying that mass murder, some of it committed with illegal weaponry (white phosphorus) is 'propaganda'.
    
    ReuVera - National anthems are neither here nor there. Here, for example, are a couple of less used verses of Britain's national anthem:
    
    2. O Lord our God arise,
    Scatter her enemies
    And make them fall;
    Confound their politics,
    Frustrate their knavish tricks,
    On Thee our hopes we fix,
    God save us all!
    
    6. Lord grant that Marshal Wade
    May by thy mighty aid
    Victory bring.
    May he sedition hush,
    And like a torrent rush,
    Rebellious Scots to crush.
    God save the Queen
    
    Nationalism has always been ugly, usually invoking God's help to kill, maim and destroy.

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    1. 78

       Sufidreamerposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Most English people could never understand why the Scots were reluctant to sing the National Anthem
       
       Happy Burns Night, Paraglider - Did you manage to find Haggis?

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       1. 88

          Paragliderposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          I fitted in an early Burns Night in UK on 23/11, two days before coming back to the Middle East. Not a lot of haggis in Qatar...

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    2. 82

       LondonGirlposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       The French national anthem is pretty blood thirsty as well.
       
       
       Aux armes, citoyens,
       Formez vos bataillons,
       Marchons, marchons !
       Qu'un sang impur Abreuve nos sillons !   
       
       To arms, citizens,
       Form your battalions,
       Let's march, let's march!
       May a tainted blood drench our furrows!

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12. 88

    Paragliderposted 15 years ago

    To everyone on this thread - Happy Burns' Day and Chinese New Year!!

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    1. 79

       Uninvited Writerposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Happy Burns day...have some haggis

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13. 0

    SirDentposted 15 years ago

    What Vladimir is saying is that in Germany and Russia would place their weapons, trucks, etc. . .  in schoolyards hoping that the enemy would hit the school then use that as propaganda against their enemies.They would hide behind civilians in hopes of getting sympathy from other nations who would condemn those who blew up the school. He is saying the same thing is being done by Hamas.
    
    I can't believe none of those who are on this thread couldn't see that. Of course most probably did but decided it was best to joke about it.
    
    Many talk about civilian casualties versus Israeli casualties. Everyone wants to condemn Israel, but yet say nothing against Hamas other than, "I don't support Hamas."
    
    When it is right to attack those who try to destroy you?

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    1. 65

       Ralph Deedsposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Just who is destroying whom? And who is stealing whose land--the mad dog Israeli settlers or the Palestinians?

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       1. 60

          VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          I think naming Israelis in bad taste will never deter them from defending themselves.  If Israelis are "settlers", who were there before 2000 years, at the time of Christ,  what will you call those who forcibly settled there ?  You cannot legitimise your actions just by expanding your population.  You should think what is lagging behind with the Palestinians, who never succeeds in any adventurism.  How the Israelis are superior than Hamas?  Even if any country supply arms to Hamas, as does US to Israel, can they fight and win?  Think it over several times.

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       2. 0

          SirDentposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          It seems to me that Israel forced manty of their own citizens out of Gaza and the west bank just a few short years ago. So tell me, whose land are they stealing?
          
          One more question for everyone.
          
          What is worse? Those who hide behind women and children or those who do what they can to destroy those who want to destroy them?

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             livelongerposted 15 years agoin reply to this

             Do we have to pick one? Seriously.

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    2. 59

       Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Never.
       
       "But I tell you, that ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also."
       
       "But I say unto you, love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despite fully use you, and curse you;"
       
       Least ways according to your savior.
       
       Hypocrite.

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          VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          Everyone wants to turn the other side when they are smitten on the right cheek. Everyone wants to love their enemies and bless the curser... and pray for those who use us fully and shower  curses. 
          But no one is able to control their anger... everyone have some fear of being smitten and cursed again.

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    3. 86

       livelongerposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       I don't support Hamas at all, but bombing civilians just because the cowardly Hamas is hiding among them is not acceptable. I am probably more pro-Israel than most here, generally, but killing off a thousand civilians in response to Hamas shelling is hard to defend.
       
       If that's what, in fact, Vladimir was saying, then I don't agree with him (he hasn't responded).
       
       And attacking civilians because their government did things that were bad was the type of argument that the 9/11 terrorists used.

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14. 61

    knolyourselfposted 15 years ago

    So sorry. You made me kill you.

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15. 66

    Make Moneyposted 15 years ago

    To Vladimir, ReuVera and to Dent and any one else that supports Israeli mass killings.
    
    Israel could have peace if they wanted it.
    
    I mean right now.  I just watched a Hamas representative on National TV say that they would recognize Israel if they would return to the pre-1967 boarders.  So this propaganda that is being spewed about Hamas not recognizing the right of the state of Israel to exist is a total fabrication.
    
    So in front of the eyes of the whole world what do you want Israel?
    
    War or peace.  Do you want to steal all of the Palestinian land?  If so and you get it, what will you want next, Jordon, Syria, Lebanon ... ?
    
    It's totally up to Israel if they want peace.
    
    ------------------------------------------------------
    
    Also on the news tonight it was reported that there is a mass of financial support coming from all over the world to rebuild Gaza.  It showed a family of twelve moving back into their bombed out home cause they had no where else to go.  It aired videos of the whole population of Gaza taking part in the clean up, kids too.  God bless them.
    
    But the Israeli authorities are saying it will not allow the financial support to enter Gaza unless it goes to Fatah, not Hamas.
    
    What to f...?  Israel is acting as if they already own Gaza.  They have no right to stop any humanitarian effort from reaching foreign lands.  Hamas is the democratically elected government of Gaza.  This is an outrage that the world should not allow to happen.

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    1. 86

       livelongerposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Don't be so naive. This is called PR.
       
       Let's see them take it out of their charter.
       
       It would be BIG news if Hamas agreed to recognize Israel's right to exist.

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       1. 88

          Paragliderposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          Or if Israel recognised Hamas's status as the elected government.

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          1. 86

             livelongerposted 15 years agoin reply to this

             Yes, that would be big news - but you don't think they're equivalent, do you?

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             1. 66

                Make Moneyposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                April 21, 2008
                Hamas leader accepts Israel's right to exist after Carter visit
                
                The bottom line is if Israel wants peace they themselves are going to have to make some concessions.
                
                I'll repeat, Israel could have peace if they truly wanted it.

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                1. 86

                   livelongerposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                   Under what conditions?
                   
                   I seem to remember Ehud Barak extending an olive branch in the form of a comprehensive peace deal and Palestinian state, and it was refused. Why?

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                   1. 88

                      Paragliderposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                      As a general rule, the conditions for peace have to be negotiated through an acceptable third party mediator (often from somewhere like Norway) rather than offered by the stronger partisan side.

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                      1. 86

                         livelongerposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                         A general rule according to whom? The reason you turn down a settlement is because you either don't like the terms, or you don't believe the other side will fulfill their obligations, not because you don't like the mediator, the mediator is too big or too small, or the mediator is located in the wrong place.
                         
                         At any rate, the settlement was brokered by Clinton/US at Camp David. Seemed like an acceptable third-party mediator to both Barak and Arafat.

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             2. 88

                Paragliderposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                They are necessary steps on the road to any meaningful settlement, unlike lobbing rockets or mass murder.

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16. 88

    Paragliderposted 15 years ago

    Now - back to the matter in hand. There has been a lot of rather silly talk about degrees of cowardice, hiding behind women & children, etc. What sort of hero hides behind heavy artillery and phosphorus bombs? Can we not all simply acknowledge that the mass slaughter of 1300 people of any age, gender or occupation was an abomination.
    
    Or would anyone like to say it was justified?

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    1. 60

       VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Mr.Paraglider,  no one will say that the entire Israeli Palestinian conflict is justified.  Killing by anyone be it muslims or jews or christians cannot be justified.  But the one who started the fighting is only to blame and not one who retaliated.
       
       If you believe in god, please consider this:  the land we now live is not ours.  It is god's land.
       It is our land.. it is their land... they stole our land... we lost our land.. what is all these?  We all are sailing in a boat on the seas..   When our destination comes, we get down and leave it for someone else. For a short period of our life on that boat, we cant say it is ours... so fighting for land is against god's wishes, I think.  Everyone has the right to live. No one can deny.

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       1. 88

          Paragliderposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          I was waiting for the 'But' Do I take this to mean that you think the Palestinians started the fighting and Israel are 'not to blame' for a retaliation that killed 1300?
          
          
          I don't believe in God. Perhaps that's why I am able to look at this mess pragmatically and re-assert that Israel's 'response' was gross. But the only way forward from here is bilateral talks, even though Israel's actions have made the prospect of such talks ever less likely.

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17. 59

    Teresa McGurkposted 15 years ago

    And now the BBC and Sky are both refusing to air appeals for aid in Gaza, citing concerns for objectivity. 
    
    Is Israel the biggest bunch of mob bosses in the world, or what?

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       Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Hmm, the British gov and Rupert Murdoch. 100% objectivity all 'round then......

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18. 88

    Paragliderposted 15 years ago

    I could well be wrong, but I suspect that US is too associated with Israel to be best placed to act as neutral mediator in this scenario.

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    1. 86

       livelongerposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       The US has to avoid being too biased towards Israel (GWB failed in this regard, but Clinton by most accounts was not), but the US is probably the only major country that Israel would trust to back it in a world that it sees as being irredeemably against it. (Maybe the UK, too, but for whatever reason the UK is never heavily involved)
       
       At any rate, no one held a gun to Arafat's head to get him to Camp David.

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19. 66

    Make Moneyposted 15 years ago

    The US is never an acceptable third party mediator because it always takes the side of Israel.  The US has done more to prevent peace in the middle east than to try to mediate it.  The fact that the US has vetoed 33 UN resolutions against Israel is a clear example of this.  Norway or a hundred other countries would be a better choice for a mediator.
    
    You asked why the Palestinian state refused a 'peace deal'.  Well it's obvious, Israel wasn't willing to get out of the occupied territories and return to the pre-1967 borders.
    
    Here's a List of United Nations resolutions concerning Israel

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    1. 86

       livelongerposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Thanks for reminding me why Israel thinks the UN is anti-Israel. And why Israel doesn't think the US is in the tank with the other UN countries that repeatedly condemn Israel in resolution after resolution, but then sink any similar resolution against the Sudan, whose crimes are many orders of magnitude greater.
       
       From a Canadian paper (Toronto Sun):
       http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive … 00205.html
       
       Why Arafat turned down the Camp David peace deal isn't obvious, even to most Palestinian supporters. Some suggest Arafat would've been killed for many any sort of peace deal with Israel. Others suggest he was a mental case who loved the drama of a struggle. Who knows.

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20. 66

    Make Moneyposted 15 years ago

    One good thing that came out of the 2000 Camp David Summit was the Trilateral statement.  Here's the full text of it.
    
    
    UN Security Council Resolution 242 is,
    
    
    Text of Resolution 242
    
    
    Like I say, Israel could have peace right now if it truly wanted it.

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21. 86

    livelongerposted 15 years ago

    Sure, under what conditions?
    
    And have the Palestinians been living up to their commitments? Think carefully before you answer that question (or, feel free to ignore it, like you've done with plenty of other questions I've asked)

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    1. 66

       Make Moneyposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       What conditions are needed?  Israel just needs to get out of the occupied territories to have peace.
       
       What commitments do the Palestinians have if Israel is not upholding their commitments?  None.  Lets see the situation as it truly is.  The military arm of Hamas are freedom fighters.  Their home made rockets hardly make a dint where they land.  They land like a useless piece of steel.  Israel is a rogue terrorist state.
       
       Quotes from the Jewish Lobby Gives Obama His Marching Orders by the American Free Press.
       

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          livelongerposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          Is that all? Why didn't Arafat accept the Camp David agreement in 2000 then? Should Hamas and Fatah accept the same agreement now?
          
          
          
          If they're useless, why do they keep on launching them?
          
          
          
          Ahhh....the Israelis are also to blame for Iraq. Naturally.
          
          What else? I think you'll find ample "evidence" implicating Israel for global warming and the extinction of several dozens of tropical bird species. Please, Google away.

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22. 61

    knolyourselfposted 15 years ago

    Department of Defense:
    Donald Rumsfeld  Secretary
    Paul Wolfowitz  Assistant Secretary Until 2005
    Douglas Feith  Undersecretary for Policy Until 2005
    Richard PerleDefense Policy Board, Consultant to the Secretary
    Jame Woolsey   Defense Policy Board: Member
    Stephen Cambone  Undersecretary for Intelligence
    Abram Shulsky  Director, Office of Special Plans
    White House
    Dick Cheney  Vice President
    Lewis Libby  Chief of Staff to Vice President Cheney
    David Wurmser  Middle East advisor to Vice President Cheney
    Elliott Abrams  National Security Council Senior Director
    John Hannah  Staff to Vice President Cheney
    Eric Edelman  Staff to Vice President Cheney
    
    The people behind the Iraq thing. Notice how many are dual citizen Jews.
    "Ahhh....the Israelis are also to blame for Iraq. Naturally."
    
    So theory goes Iraq was for oil or was for Israel or both.
    Notice Israel calls for US to attack Iran bout every day.
    One could get certain ideas.

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       livelongerposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Certainly if one has anti-Semitic proclivities to begin with.
       
       I'd imagine no more than half of your selected list are Jewish, and there are plenty of other neocons who are not Jewish who somehow didn't make your list.
       
       Besides, Jews are among the most solidly Democratic voting blocs, and if you've paid attention to Obama's cabinet selections, you'll notice many Jews who most likely share his sentiments towards the Iraq invasion.

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23. 61

    knolyourselfposted 15 years ago

    "Certainly if one has anti-Semitic proclivities to begin with."
    Eventually it all comes down too it. I could say everything I say about Israel about Cuba, and I will never be anti-latino. But ultimately to criticize Israel is antisemitic. Reconcile the two or its mind control pure and simple.

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       livelongerposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Cuba is not the only Latino country. Israel is the only Jewish country.
       Besides, the issue isn't that you criticize Israel.
       
       You were the one that suggested that Jews in the former administration were "dual citizen Israelis".
       
       I don't have to make the connection between criticism of Israel and anti-Semitism (which isn't always the same thing all the time); you've done so in your own post.

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24. 66

    Make Moneyposted 15 years ago

    Oh yeah the same old stale fall back of using the phrase anti-Semitism.  The True Torah Jews say the same as what knolyourself just said.  This is what the True Torah Jews say about Zionism and Anti-Semitism copied from their web site.
    
     
    
    You should also continue to read what the True Torah Jews have to say about anti-Semitism by political Zionism  God bless the True Torah Jews.

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25. 66

    Make Moneyposted 15 years ago

    It's never the same thing.

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26. 61

    knolyourselfposted 15 years ago

    "You were the one that suggested that Jews in the former administration were "dual citizen Israelis"."
    All Jews in America are dual citizens. They are the only people in the world that are automatically allowed to be dual citizens in the US - a supreme court decision. They are both citizens of the US and automatic citizenship of Israel.

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       livelongerposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Not true.
       
       Please read this:
       http://www.richw.org/dualcit/faq.html
       
       Relevant quotes:
       
       
       
       BTW, when researching this, the most prominent site that came up time and time again was Stormfront. One of your favorite online haunts?

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    knolyourselfposted 15 years ago

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return

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       livelongerposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Point?
       
       The fact that Israel grants Jews citizenship does not mean American Jews want, recognize or plan to utilize that.
       
       Most European countries and Japan offer citizenship to ethnic descendants returning from abroad, too.

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    Make Moneyposted 15 years ago

    Israel does not allow someone to hold dual citizenship and be in its government.  So why does the US?  Especially so many compared to the small minority of US citizens?
    
    From Basic Law: The Knesset
    

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    sandra rinckposted 15 years ago

    I know you guys are talking about Israel-America dual citizenship but...
    
    So I don't know what that is all about, but I do know that America grants duel citizenships to military families that have their children in other countries.  I mean, their children are citizens of the U.S but also cit. of the country they were born in.
    
    I don't know if their citizenship is recognized by the other country, but it is here.

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    knolyourselfposted 15 years ago

    "Point?"
    Point is to which country are some most loyal. Jonathan Pollard case.
    "On Aug. 4, 2005, Rosen, Weissman, and Pentagon analyst Larry Franklin were indicted by a federal grand jury and charged with violating provisions of the Espionage Act that forbid divulging national defense information to persons not authorized to receive it."

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       livelongerposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       You won't catch me defending Jonathan Pollard! He is a traitor and should stay in jail. You've named 3 others. That's four people.
       
       What this means with regard to Jews in the US government, I'm still waiting. Or are you suggesting all Jews operate with a hive mind?

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    knolyourselfposted 15 years ago

    Don't know what a hive mind is.
    Back to point way back:
    
    Department of Defense:
    Donald Rumsfeld  Secretary
    Paul Wolfowitz  Assistant Secretary Until 2005
    Douglas Feith  Undersecretary for Policy Until 2005
    Richard PerleDefense Policy Board, Consultant to the Secretary
    Jame Woolsey   Defense Policy Board: Member
    Stephen Cambone  Undersecretary for Intelligence
    Abram Shulsky  Director, Office of Special Plans
    White House
    Dick Cheney  Vice President
    Lewis Libby  Chief of Staff to Vice President Cheney
    David Wurmser  Middle East advisor to Vice President Cheney
    Elliott Abrams  National Security Council Senior Director
    John Hannah  Staff to Vice President Cheney
    Eric Edelman  Staff to Vice President Cheney
    
    There has been much study of the motives of the above in reference to the Iraq war. And it has be suggested that some of these people may have attempted to or did influence American policy in the middle east, more for the interest of Israel than the US. However personally I think the American ruling class uses Israel more than Israel uses America.

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       Paragliderposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       America uses Israel as a power base in the region, making sure it is the best equipped military around. This policy has backfired on the US in many parts of the world, mainly when a new regime doesn't choose to toe the US party line. Perhaps that is why their other preferred method of distributing power is establishing military bases but retaining complete control of them (e.g. Qatar has a huge US base, for ready access to Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.)
       
       I think there is little doubt that the US unwillingness to be even-handed towards Palestine (note- I'm not saying support, just fairness) is, or has been, due to a fear of crossing the powerful zionist lobby and, by extension, their lower-order supporters.

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    Make Moneyposted 15 years ago

    Here's that web site that claims the majority of Jews do not support the zionist state.
    
    From Jews against Zionism
    
    
    There's some more good photos on the above site.  Here's one calling for the end of zionism for peace.
    
    
    And one with Jews burning Israeli flag.
    

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    Paragliderposted 15 years ago

    PLEASE - everyone who contributed to this thread - please read Aya Katz's new hub. It is a serious contribution that deserves to be very widely read.
    
    http://hubpages.com/hub/ISRAEL-The-Two- … the-Nation
    
    Thanks!

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       Make Moneyposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Thanks Paraglider.  It seems this one state solution is spreading, as it should.

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          Paragliderposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          It's a small piece of land. It doesn't need to be divided into chunks.

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    earnestshubposted 15 years ago

    Zionists, are the same as all the other fundamentalist religious fanatics in the world.Mad as whistling kettles the lot of em!
    All the strife in the world would reduce to a few skirmishes if these religiously insane were removed from the world politic.
    The world needs to stop all religious looneys from being a part of any political decisions, and the only way to achieve this is through education and diplomacy.Israel and Palestine are like any other people, but their countries have been hijacked by a small group of madmen.

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    Make Moneyposted 15 years ago

    Here's a review for Tel Aviv University scholar Shlomo Zand's new book.  He is also suggesting a one state solution for a different reason.
    http://www.alternet.org/story/122810/
    
    In another thread knolyourself asked what I consider to be a fairly responsible question regarding Aya Katz's new hub.
    

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    Truly Differentposted 15 years ago

    I am bored. Really. And scared.
    But this woman, Briggitte Gabriel (christian Arab woman) is telling something some persons will not like. Because truth hurts.
    
    http://multimedia.heritage.org/content/ … 92706a.wvx
    
    
    http://www.americancongressfortruth.com

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    knolyourselfposted 15 years ago

    "What if the Palestinian Arabs who have lived for decades under the heel of the modern Israeli state are in fact descended from the very same "children of Israel" described in the Old Testament?"
    Sorry Mike it won't wash. It's a nice comprimise. One can be for the Palistinians it would seem without being an anti-semite. It is called a united israel because for one, Israel would never ever accept the term united palistine.

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    Make Moneyposted 15 years ago

    Brigitte Gabriel is a nut.
    
    Quotes from a March 20, 2008 Israel e News article titled From Lebanon with Hate: Brigitte Gabriel, speaking at John Hagee`s CUFI Convention
    
    
    
    If more people listened to Brigitte Gabriel we'd already be in the midst of WW3 against the whole Islamic world and possibly Russia. 
    
    Both John Hagee and Brigitte Gabriel, the Dark Maid from Marjayoun are war mongering lunatics that should not be listened to.
    
    The Heritage Foundation is a far right conservative-leaning think tank.

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    Make Moneyposted 15 years ago

    The above article about Brigitte Gabriel was written by American international lawyer and researcher, Dr. Franklin Lamb.
    
    Here's an interesting article from an International Lawyers without Borders Feb 7, 2009 Interview with Franklin Lamb: Israel’s Attack on Gaza: Legitimate Self Defense or War Crime?

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    Make Moneyposted 14 years ago

    UN: Israel behind alarming situation in Gaza
    01 May 2009 - "Fulfilling the humanitarian needs and beginning early recovery is impossible without the adequate entry of fuel, cash, and materials needed for the repairs of damaged or destroyed homes, schools, clinics, and other urgent infrastructure repairs," Serry said, calling on Israeli officials to end the fatal siege.
    
    Lieberman begins European tour in attempt to sway EU policy on Israel
    4 May 2009 - "The EU drew strong condemnation from the Israelis last week for, in effect, suspending work on an "action plan" agreed last year aimed at awarding Israel special political, diplomatic and trade links with Europe. The European commission and several EU member states insist that the action plan will be binned unless the Netanyahu government pledges to pursue the two-state settlement creating an independent state for the Palestinians."
    
    UN blames Israel for six incidents in Gaza war
    May 5, 2009 - "Israel was responsible for six serious attacks on UN buildings during its three-week Gaza offensive which caused deaths, injuries or damage, a UN report said Tuesday.
    The report accused Israel of failing to protect UN buildings and the civilians inside them, and recommended that the United Nations should seek compensation for the damage to its property.
    UN chief Ban Ki-moon told a press conference: "I intend to seek reparations for damages incurred by the UN."
    It also demanded that UN leaders urge the Jewish state to formally retract allegations that Palestinians had fired from two UN-run buildings."

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    kiryatechposted 21 months ago

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5TSj1k67GI
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3LYsJvtQ7s
    https://kiryatech.com/services/web-deve … ding-page/

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