The "Come Argue With Me About Religion" Thread.
- dixie28714posted 12 years ago
0Very cool
I'd love to pick your brain... this, however, is not the safest place to do it.
That's very good
You don't think that burning people for eternity in a lake of fire because they do not believe is psychopathic behavior?
LMAO, Again... So soon?
Ok Then using the phrase "your psychopathic deity" in relation to my religion is false as the particular deity I believe in doesn't really like all that fire stuff.
Pascals wager relies on both sides of the coin- gain heaven, avoid hell. Since I didn't know him personally, I don't know which one was most important to him.
How does that address my question? Just looking for a fight I see. You wouldn't happen to be a Christian would you?
Because one set follows belief in the FLESH)(what they see, feel and hear),and the other set believes in FAITH ,what they believe has been done (Jesus dying on the cross) and to come ,ressurection.
(My opinion /understanding)
Lol ,but you are right ,nobody knows it all.
Yet you entered this discussion calling us arrogant and self righteous. And then failed to back your statement up with anything other than unrelated drivel. I knew you were a Christian from that attack alone.
so your feelings were hurt?
and cagsil insulted me for saying that on page 1!!!No.
Well, that's probably the most unique thing that I've ever heard my religion be called... I have no idea in hell what it means though
No worries. It is almost impossible to do.
Not at all. I am simply pointing out the conflicts your beliefs cause because you 1. don't actually believe, 2. don't demonstrate the traits you claim and 3, your beliefs make you behave irrationally - because they are irrational.
The fact that you do not understand what constitutes rational is really down to your belief system. I am right. Just read any history book to see how much conflict this belief causes. You are behaving irrationally. You are fighting for Jesus. You are not really making any sense here. I suggest - and I mean this kindly - visiting a mental health professional, because this is not rational behavior.
I am pushing my opinion - yes. Sorry that it bothers you that I am honest. Should I just shut up and let religious people write all the laws like they did in the past? Maybe make it illegal for me to get a divorce again? Perhaps make sodomy and oral sex illegal again? Bring back slavery? Like the bible says? Just look back at the laws religious zealots like yourself wrote.
Your beliefs are irrational. Not only that - they are nonsense as well. As has been pointed out to you by some one else - they are also selfish and destructive - both to you personally and society in general. Why should I not seek to stop people like you damaging others? You do not keep these nonsensical beliefs to yourself like you should. These "Personal Relationships" with an Invisible Super Being should be kept private. It is a mental health issue that needs to be dealt with.Well, my dear EG, I understand the belief of Evolution, and your points on bringing back the illegalness of divorce or oral sex are valid, I certainly like oral sex, but that's not the point, You don't know me, personally, and if you read my hubs you'd know some, and I have dealt with professionals
and continue to do so, but Christian beliefs are not an illness in themselves. Also further point is, that to have depression takes more strength mentally than the average opinion , IMO, because it take tremendous strength to get thru it in one piece, but that's for another thread or forum at another time. I'm very open about my depression in my hubs, and FYI many intelligent actors, comedians, and Abraham Lincoln had/have depression! So did Professor John Nash who won the Nobel peace prize as well as Albert Einstein, so I wouldn't go bashing people with depression just yet.
God bless you
This is not the Christian, bible based belief. Everything is based on energy. Measurable energy. Your "spirit" is not measurable. It is not energy - otherwise you could show it to me. Science deals with physical reality only. Not "spirits".
What goes around does not come around. Life is unfair. Life is dirty and dangerous and scary and fun and the fact that I choose to do unto others will not bring that back to me. I still stand the same chance of being hit by a bolt of lightening as I did yesterday when I was being nasty to some one.
You cannot reconcile science with the christian god. Look at you - you are redefining it in an attempt to defend your belief. So you do not believe in the Christian god - you just made a new one up. You are not a Christian.What does that have to do with this?
Just pointing out that you speak nonsense and demonstrating what it sounds like to others who do not believe the garbage you believe.
Sorry you do not understand because you are a religionist.Yes, I suppose that's my diease
Based on this definition:
1. The Christian religion, founded on the life and teachings of Jesus.
2. Christians as a group; Christendom.
3. The state or fact of being a Christian.
4. pl. Chris·ti·an·i·ties A particular form or sect of the Christian religion: the Christianities of antiquity.
From http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Christianity
"Neither. The irrational belief in an Invisible Super Being causes nothing but conflicts and argument" "They are both needless failed systems that have shown time and time again to do nothing but create friction and control"
I am giving you one example of Christianity leading to the creation of something that is neither. Please answer on point
"I am not really interested in how you twisted what the bible says to determine your belief system. You are not a Christian. Mind you - neither are all the other self-professed Christians - so you are not alone. This is why there are thousands of denominations and wars have been fought."
Given the definition above- If faith is based on the life of Jesus, then the faith is Christian. Concede point or give different working definition. It helps if we are all on the same page.
To address the last sentence-different denominations within religion, at the base, are equivalent to different branches of science in as far as the differnent studies can, but do not necessarily contradict the other. In addition, wars have been fought for many reasons. Boundary disputes, for example, have led to a great number of wars. This does not, I hope, mean that you advocate for the removal of all boundaries. Please answer on point
As this is simply your own personal belief system and it in no way matches with scientific knowledge and understanding.
Point conceded. Apples and Oranges.
Why are you trying to prove it with science? Do you simply not understand that science deals solely with physical reality and has nothing to do with invisible, undetectable "spirits"?
Point somewhat conceded. Science regularly deals with the invisible and undetectable. As far as "spirits" go, definition is needed. If we are talking about "God" well science has attempted to deal with it but -as you say- the scientific system is ill-suited to the study.
"Because I am getting mixed messages here. First you say it is all internal. Then you claim to have some science to back it up"
I did say it was internal. The rest is addressed by quote only as it doesn't apply to my arguments. Just letting you know I'm not ignoring it
Then you say some nonsense about Jesus being the Son of The Living God and shedding blood and because you believe this nonsense you are a real Christian.
According to the above definition, yes he is. Concede point or give different working definition.
See - this is my issue with your irrational belief system. You don't do any work. You don't look inside. No attempt is made to become like Jesus. No introspection is done. No personal development is made. All you do is say the majik words and then fight about your beliefs.
This seems to be in direct conflict with my statement of :
"No, actually I understand it completely. Christ is the personification of what I aspire to... forgiveness, love, compassion, service, understanding I will never reach the goal but I can strive towards it. So yes, he is-for me-the aspect of myself that wishes to be better. I don't really have an external expectation of him."
The burden of proof lies with you here. Either concede point or prove that I don't feel that way.
"No offense - you all do it."
You have not met and studied the action of every christian ever so this statement is unprovable. Concede point or provide proof of this exhaustive study.
Do you genuinely not see the contradictions in your statements? Do you honestly think this is a rational thought train?
Addressed by quote only as the questions were personal and addressed, I believe, to Danny.
Just didn't want you thinking I ignored them.The Sistene chapel is beautiful. It is one of my favorite places on earth. I was there last year when I had a guided tour of the private areas of the Vatican. If anything were to sway me - this is it. Until I consider the cost.
How many murders is it worth? The only reason it was built is because Pope Julius II was raping and plundering Europe in Jesus' name. Hundreds of thousand were murdered to pay for this.
You OK with that? Does one magnificent frescoe make up for that?
The statement I last made was not directed at you. It was directed at the hand.
This is a photo I took in the private area. Unbelievable works by Rafael and others that are never seen by the public. Vast wealth collected and hoarded away. Still being collected today. Luxury you can only imagine.
No. I think you have spouted enough nonsense already.
AWESOME! job on avoiding the points I made though. Well done.
Bet Jesus is proud huh?Dear me. This was not addressed to you.
"The "human condition"? One only needs to understand their own life, which is what many do not understand."
Fair enough
"Melissa my dear lady, words only have power, when the receiver gives power to them."
I agree, but there are quite a few factors that affect a person's ability to have the kind of strength needed to realize that. Extreme bluntness would only amplify those issues.
If a person is insecure in a certain area, but refuses to do anything about fixing the problem and then is insulted by the words of someone else...it is obvious that they gave power to the words and they are only to blame.
There is a whole world of in-between that I think you are discounting. The process of "fixing the problem" is not instantaneous. Especially if insecurity is deeply ingrained by mitigating factors. If one is trying to get better, but hasn't reached well yet, then the "blunt honesty" test is bound to produce a failure. That failure, in one who is still weak, could be devastating.
One of the biggest problems in the world today is that too many people find it acceptable to BLAME OTHERS for issues they themselves create. Now, that is truly ignorant about understanding life.
On the opposite end, there are many people who contribute to the self-esteem deficits of others but never accept responsibility for it. Abusive parents, rapists, etc.
No disrespect meant Cagsil, but I'm going to err on the side of TRYING (in caps to accentuate my probable occasional failure)to be gentle whenever humanly possible. I wont sacrifice honesty for it, but if I can choose gentler terms and still be understood I will use them.
I'll also understand my insecurities, understand where they come from, and work to fix them. I don't have a timeline on that though. Some are easier to fix than others.
Got any advice on how to do it?Actually, I'm not discounting them. I am showing that the individual doesn't understand.
That depends actually. I made an instant turn around in my life, after struggling years with issues which I refused to see a doctor.
I understand that and I also understand that some of those factors are part and parcel, the underlying problem which came from their upbringing, because those who help in their upbringing, didn't know any better.
It's not a failed test, but is a character test, which cannot pass or fail, but learn from.
It's not a failure, as I said. It's a lesson of life to be learned from, so they can know themselves better.
Of course, but those particular people are more ignorant than those who they commit atrocities against.
That's understood. Everyone chooses their own method for communicating.
One question, you have identified the underlying cause? If so, then tell me. I am curious, to see if your perception would be the same as mine was. But, if I can help, then would gladly. I know. But I had to put my link in somewhere
Truthfully you have just described the amazing worth of your soul.
Above rubies ,more precious than Gold
Is it not the most beautiful thing when a human being is honest and unafraid to display that honesty.
Far from being insecure ,in my opinion you represent someone who deals with reality face on, tears,fear ,laughter and joy!
I find many of your thoughts very inspiring Thank-you!How odd that you hate it when atheists are honest. Oh well.
I have never met an honest theist.
That is the point.Of course you ignored what I said as usual. Didn't really expect much else. You are too busy attacking anyone whop dares to say your beliefs are nonsense.
I would love to, but I think we are pretty far apart. One of these days I am going to win the lottery and meet all the people I met online in person.
Claiming god as fact (as most people who believe it do) is dishonesty. Most theists do not claim it is "just a belief" - they claim some rational or scientific basis. This is intellectual dishonesty.
When you argue with me that you have a rational belief - you are being dishonest - with yourself in the first instance, because there can be no rational belief in a god. Your rationale is that it is better to believe an infinity:one shot than not believe because you might be right. This is not rational thinking. You have fooled yourself that it is. You may be honest in other areas, but you are not being honest with yourself.
This is why people who believe in a god have been persuaded to do so many awful things. That is not to say they cannot be persuaded by other means such as patriotism, nationalism etc.
Also - the term theist does not really apply to you. You are a self professed christian monotheist.Hey Melissa,
You are as flexible as they come, willing and able to be understanding on the highest level, these "others" as I'll describe them, have personalites like sharp pointy stones, and remind me of a person I talk to on the phone, who is ONE SIDED, and who pretends to listen but only wants to say what they want to say! How narrowminded and pathetic and totally lacking of good manners.
That's what I say, I applaud you for the way you handle yourself, most "Christians" (There's that "evil" word again, because I looked up the word atheist and found that many think everyone else, that is anyone with religious beliefs are responsible for ALL the problems of humanity like Bill Maher and we all know that's impossible, just like when a couple fights, it's always a % of each who are at fault, maybe a poor example, IDK ) But most Christians here bend over backwards like you with politeness and patience and are refutedly ignored because "they" the atheists on here, or whomever they are, will not listen like a one sided conversation and cannot WAIT to say their piece hahahahahahahhahaha . Again http://hubpages.com/hub/Attitude-with-LatitudeI'm not very good at accepting complements, but thank you
I need to thank Kiwi too.
I understand that Melissa. And, the only thing I am attempting to do is help add clarity to things that appear to distorted or are being manipulated by other people.
Actually, many people are instantaneously insulted, at the drop of hat. Why? Too sensitive. Why? Insecurity with themselves.
The only point of view is character? Your individual character. The improvement of said character helps self esteem. Increases in self esteem drops insecurities.
Only if they let themselves wallow in it, which is why words shouldn't factor. They cannot accept themselves yet, therefore they cannot accept others. It leads to intolerance.
Everyone is capable of learning, they need to get better control of their learning process. To do that, one needs to always keep an open mind and have the ability to see beyond oneself(accept humility). Humility always leaves a sour after-taste, but always gives a lesson to be learned.
Learning leads to knowledge and knowledge leads to wisdom discerned truth, when the ego isn't in the way.
It all stems from seeing beyond oneself. If one cannot see beyond oneself, then one becomes their own false truth. Truth isn't subjective, it is objective. And, as I have said before and I will say again, there IS a universal truth among human beings. There IS a collective truth that exists and it is known when seen(recognized without ego).
I am sure, but as long as communication is honest between both, the message will get across.
Wrong. Self development is only ended by death.
Normal? and Understandable? It is actually controlled by outside influences, that love to distort and manipulate others. And, it's no longer acceptable, to be normal or understandable. Not when the actions of ONE person can extinguish billions of lives.
I'm sure. I had my share.
Then you don't love yourself. Otherwise, you would know that you can be loved and love others immensely.
If they truly cared about you, then they will not purposely hurt you. If they do, then their actions shows you that they do not love you or themselves for that matter.
Learn what you can from it, then move on forward. Use it to improve upon yourself. It is all you can do.
Acceptance of self and learning from previous experience is your only way forward. No guilt and no forgiveness required. Accept the past, learn from it to free your guilt. As for the likelihood it is genetics? Don't know. However, if the environment was better than it is, then circumstance would better and have different results. This I am sure/positive of.
I came across a woman in my research and she was autistic. She overcame it and went on to lead a very productive life. So, I know it isn't actually a disability. It's how she develops forward it what matters. The quality of her life, which she should know, she can have with effort and support.
It sounds like you're living in your own past? I wrote a hub that might help? It's called "The Past, The Present, or The Future- Which Controls Your View?".
Intelligence of self is irrelevant. One shouldn't need to measure oneself by intelligence. I don't consider myself an intelligent person. To me, my intelligence level doesn't matter, because I have the confidence that I have discerned truth from the knowledge I've gained. Truth cannot be wrong.
This is the acceptance of self process.
Good, but don't give up on improving yourself though.
Of course not. I can see that, but if I can help, then I want to.Okay Cagsil- Some partial responses from bunches far back. I'm two pots of coffee and a day of swimming with my spawn down.
"MelissaBarrett wrote:
I amend my statement to "not generally instantaneous"
Cagsil wrote: Actually, many people are instantaneously insulted, at the drop of hat. Why? Too sensitive. Why? Insecurity with themselves."
Miscommunication: I meant that a fix was not "generally instantaneous" even if yours was. We were debating the time it took to fix things.
MelissaBarrett wrote:
If one is struggling to change and is hit with "blunt honesty" and is not far enough in their journey to shrug it off, then it may cause a regression.
Cagsil wrote: Only if they let themselves wallow in it, which is why words shouldn't factor. They cannot accept themselves yet, therefore they cannot accept others. It leads to intolerance.
Once again, you cant expect them to be there if they aren't there. If they were strong enough to ignore... oh say you ... then they would be far enough in the process to not fail the test. Its a catch 22.
"MelissaBarrett wrote:
Enlightenment generally occurs in stages. If one has not reached the stage to learn a lesson, it cannot be learned.
Cagsil wrote: It all stems from seeing beyond oneself. If one cannot see beyond oneself, then one becomes their own false truth. Truth isn't subjective, it is objective. And, as I have said before and I will say again, there IS a universal truth among human beings. There IS a collective truth that exists and it is known when seen(recognized without ego)."
On this one point, I call bullshit. You didn't address the point. It is a very nice answer, but it in no apparent way relates to the point. Concede that knowledge is either instantaneous or comes in stages. It has to be one or the other. If it is instantaneous, then no further examination is necessary. If it is a process then you must allow for the time the process takes.
"MelissaBarrett wrote:
I agree, but emotional acceptance of that knowledge will only come at the end of self development.
Cagsil wrote: Wrong. Self development is only ended by death"
To be more specific, emotional acceptance of knowledge comes only after the knowledge is completely integrated. At that point, there would be no further need to address that area unless the knowledge changes. I'm not talking about all knowledge, just knowledge relating to one area of development. There does come a point when individual areas of knowledge have been completely learned. Expecting emotional acceptance IN THOSE AREAS comes only after that point.
"MelissaBarrett wrote:
Until then, the effect on the victim of the atrocities is both normal and understandable.
Normal? and Understandable? It is actually controlled by outside influences, that love to distort and manipulate others. And, it's no longer acceptable, to be normal or understandable. Not when the actions of ONE person can extinguish billions of lives."
It is completely acceptable for a victim of trauma to be traumatized. I'm not sure what else I can even say here. Are they eventually going to need to seek help for it? Yes. Should we discount that effect because their pain is their fault because they let rape or abuse "get to them"? That's not even a consideration. Not for me anyway.
And on this subject... And just to clarify your position... would repeatedly telling them they were raped be acceptable because it was the truth. And to what degree? Is it something like "Hey Jill, you were raped so you are illogical. Its your fault you are ignorant of this because your ego is getting in the way. It's your fault for being emotionally scarred by it because you gave your rapist the power to hurt your feelings. Why are you crying? Its the truth. Geez, how irrational...
That really wasn't meant to be argumentative, but I really need clarification on exactly how far your beliefs go. If there is no room for mercy or charity in speech than I respect that you have your opinions, but they are too far from where I am to be able to understand them. Consider it my ego
Just for the record, rape isn't a personal issue for me. No hidden agenda for that topic.
"MelissaBarrett wrote:
The biggest blanket cause of my insecurities is a desire to be loved.
Cagsil wrote: Then you don't love yourself. Otherwise, you would know that you can be loved and love others immensely."
I have that knowledge. Having the knowledge and even logically accepting the knowledge is not the same as feeling it. (for me) I'm working on it.
"MelissaBarrett wrote:
That gives those I care about an enormous ability to hurt me.
Cagsil wrote: If they truly cared about you, then they will not purposely hurt you. If they do, then their actions shows you that they do not love you or themselves for that matter."
Again, have the logical knowledge, working on emotional acceptance.
"Cagsil wrote: Acceptance of self and learning from previous experience is your only way forward. No guilt and no forgiveness required. Accept the past, learn from it to free your guilt. As for the likelihood it is genetics? Don't know. However, if the environment was better than it is, then circumstance would better and have different results. This I am sure/positive of."
Do I really have to type it again? As far as the guilt... it can be a transient motivating factor... and for now I'm ok with using it as such. And by environment, I meant my body/womb. These are thoughts I really do need to finish fleshing out all the way as the knowledge is needed for future decisions. So this one I need to wallow around in a little more. During that time, when I am unsure, I will be more likely to be hurt by comments about it.Would it not be cruel for someone to continue to berate me for it, if I am actively seeking to change it/learn from it?
"Cagsil wrote: I came across a woman in my research and she was autistic. She overcame it and went on to lead a very productive life. So, I know it isn't actually a disability. It's how she develops forward it what matters. The quality of her life, which she should know, she can have with effort and support."
Actually, I'm pretty sure it is a disability. The degree in which it can be overcome is unpredictable. It is possible to live a productive life for some, for others it is unlikely. There are varying degrees of Autism, and there-right now-is no way to know where Lily stands. (She is 30 months old) My insecurities lay in not knowing where to draw the line between acceptance of her limitations and efforts to change them. As I can-in part-anticipate your response to this, let me pre-argue that Yes, there are limits and trying to push a child past them IS cruelty. My insecurity comes from not having knowledge that, at this point, there is no way to obtain. So yes, my feelings will be hurt by either "Melissa, accept that she is going to be institutionalized" or "There's nothing wrong with her that a good ass beating wouldn't fix" Both of which are actual quotes.
"Cagsil wrote: It sounds like you're living in your own past? I wrote a hub that might help? It's called "The Past, The Present, or The Future- Which Controls Your View?"
Thank you, I'll look at it. This is actually a weird one... yes, I was abused and yes I'm still living in the past... Working on it. (The story is so pathetic, I'll not even address it) He still attempts to verbally abuse to this day, and I can very easily ignore HIM. I can ignore strangers. I am just saddened by my own opinion which is based in self-knowledge.
If any specific points from that post are not address, then either they are being addressed in another post/sub discussion or you can assume that I concur and understand.Melissa, let's differentiate age, since that apparently needs to be known. If you're making reference to children, which I think you are, which is why there is a miscommunication in our conversation. Children constant re-evaluate themselves many times over, constantly assessing themselves, but how they go about it, could be a problem. However, I am not in a position to speak about children and most of the time, people tell me that since I don't have kids, then I apparently don't know what it is like to be a parent.
If you're talking about adults, and they cannot deal with bluntness, then they certainly have lingering issues with themselves.
One cannot fail a character test based on ignorance ingrained into human nature. There is nothing to fail. Only something to learn.
Learning is instantaneous for some and for some it comes in stages. When people see beyond their own ego, they have a more open mind. Ego selectively dictates what IS learned.
You can say whatever you like about it, but it's truth. It's the primary reason for why "you are you're own worse enemy" always applies. When Ego is in play, then it becomes your enemy, because it stops you from learning, growing as a person and expanding your imagination, due to an open mind. You want to call what I say "Bullshit"? It's truth regardless of whether you like it or not.
Point addressed.
Answered.
You can have emotional acceptance, but if one doesn't understand change or adaptation, then you will have a person who acts out of pure emotion than rational. You integrated the knowledge all you want, but it doesn't close the door on ignorance. How people process knowledge is key? To be at peace and balance is how you change yourself to adapt to your environment, both socially interactive and individually. There are only two forms of thinking, which covers all communications. Rational and Irrational.
When was the last time YOU completely learned about any individual aspect of Life? I have run down over 1000 in my mind, areas of thought, on many aspects of Life and I don't find myself with your confidence.
Apparently, much of what is considered "normal" is changing. This is obvious and the only area of Life you have to look at is Rights. Normal people kill people? for what reason? And, no it is not completely acceptable for a victim of trauma to be traumatized. People respond to trauma differently and not everyone is traumatized by the experience.
Those who are traumatized should be helped. There isn't any doubt about it. Remember, outside influences at play here with regards to what classifies as "traumatized".
Rape and Abuse are different aspects. Therefore, different rules apply, same as the Laws. These two are political issues and influences. Why you brought this up to begin with? I'm not sure. I doesn't line up with previous things mentioned. Thus, I don't see a connection?
Why someone would remind someone else that they were raped? Is beyond reason, it's an act solely based on stupidity. It's outright disrespectful. There is a point or a line, you don't cross and that line is basic on character of the individual. Someone who is pathetic enough to remind some woman that she was raped, is absolutely clueless on many levels.
Do you see how stupid that person looks? And, I explained my position in above comment.
We all have faults. It's our acceptance of those faults, which helps us learn and grow. I read enough people and the words they lay down as their words(which is mostly conscious thoughts typed).
Ego isn't honest. It cannot be, simply because it's selfish. Being selfish isn't being honest
The above statement is another yet stupid and disrespectful statement. However, the resilient nature of the individual human, is based on their will. So, in essence, emotional scars? Can be overcame. What you learned from the experience and how you let it affect you, is under control by your will. You have accept that control. It either controls the individual or the individual takes control of their life? Some manage a balanced life, but many never recover.
Well, I guess you could started with this statement before introducing it into the conversation, which had nothing to do with rape or abuse.
I understand. I've told many people on here. I've learned to love myself and since doing so, it has opened me to a unique clarity about life. I've learned I can be mad at people, but still love that person, even if the person is a stranger. I've learned more in the last 10 of my life than I did in the first 33 years.
Oh, okay.
But, that's not the environment I am talking about outside influences. The ones that cause undue stress and where it stems from, and why.
Only you holds you back.
You control your own self improvement. Is it cruel to berate you about it? It depends on how long the status remains stagnant. If you say you have been working on it for 10 years already? Then, someone could possibly say something to upset you. But, if the truth is 10 years and you've done nothing do move forward? Then you have bigger issues and more pressing issues.
Yes, I am aware.
I only mentioned the story as a positive. I personally know nothing much about autism. My knowledge is to know that it has something to do with the activity of the right-side of the brain. That's about all.
Take it day by day and see what happens. Her limitations? Too many factors. See what initiative she takes in her own learning. Her efforts should direct the course.
I don't understand. What knowledge, which is available to humankind, cannot you not obtain? It sounds like you need to change your view?
A lot of what we learn is self-knowledge. You teaching yourself.
Nice way to end a post.
It would fall on both.
That depends on how they go about learning it. You are not their only available source. Self improvement is not something that can be truly taught. It is something we must self-teach, so as to understand ourselves.
No it is not.
Again, in search for an answer to why it is a fault, is the life lesson each of us must learn. So, good does come from it. A fault can be overcame.
Yes, certain words do have power, however, which ones and what power, is dictated by positive and negative impact.
And, HOW you let the power of that word affect you, is based on your perception- positive light or negative light.
No semantics actually.
Maybe it is YOU who are underestimating their ability? Age plays a factor, so I cannot say "yes" or "no" as to their ability.
I didn't say call your children ignorant. It's only a word they need to understand, which will remain with them, until the day they die. No one can know everything there is to know, because much is unknown still. It appears as if you're giving too much power to the term.
No Jerami. YOU are the one making the claims of something. I am saying it is nonsense. See how that works? YOU make a claim - I say YOU are causing conflict. YOU defend the nonsense. Read any history book. YOUR religion has been doing it since day one.
Well - I am not overly impressed with your defeatist, nothing to be done, the end times are a-comin' because it is prophesied in the bible nonsense. That can't be healthy for anyone.
:
@evolution
"Your rationale is that it is better to believe an infinity:one shot than not believe because you might be right. This is not rational thinking. You have fooled yourself that it is. You may be honest in other areas, but you are not being honest with yourself."
*smiles* actually, that is Pascal's argument. It's the one we chose to debate and the one I conceded on-- I also listed James' argument in the post that started it, and we never even got there My personal reasons were listed later with the admittance that logic really didn't have anything to do with it. There's the whole philosophical debate over whether a conscious choice to suspend disbelief is, in and of itself, an irrational choice. Especially when the choice is necessary to achieve intangible benefits. That debate could possibly last for DAYS.
I'm all for the "I believe this way until I don't" standpoint and I'm okay with being proven wrong. I'll probably not become a nonbeliever, but it's nice to narrow down my reasons for believing.James' argument is not really worth discussing, because it misses one crucial point. And that point is that believing based on his reasoning is damaging and causes cognitive dissonance. It also makes certain assumptions regarding "truth," that are clearly from a theists perspective. i.e. - some one defending an irrational belief in something that is unproven and has no evidence for. Also - like Pascal, it ignores the infinite number of possible gods.
The best argument I have heard is Descartes', but if you read between the lines - it is clear he did not believe.Please stop lying about me Jerami. I don't believe what they say about your Invisible Super Being. But - that is because it is irrational nonsense that I have investigated for myself, not because I don't like the look on their face. YOU cause the conflicts by spreading nonsense Jerami. All I do is ask that you stop. Then you fight about it.
Isn't it funny Jermai! So laughable!
so sad and blinded!
LMAO, arguing a theory in which you don't personally prescribe is also a learning lesson.
Pascals argument was thoroughly dismissed decades agoI'm not sure that there is no possible reasonable argument-- I haven't tried them all out
But yes, my personal beliefs are, as stated, a selective irrationality. I also subscribe to a little bit of semantics in the definition of debating. To me there is a very large difference between trying to convert and trying to have a conversation. I'm not trying to change anyone's thinking but-possibly-my own. I am not sure that I can think of a case where trying to convert a non-believer is a good idea. ~again that is a personal belief~
So, I agree with you. I also agree that wars in the name of God are about the most illogical and destructive forces out there. Even allowing for the belief that conversion is like some sort of referral program that God has running-- with afterlife as the reward--true belief is never achieved at the end of a sword. The only thing gained is the very egotistical affirmation that you have beaten "the heathens" so you must have Gods favor now. If I believed that Christ worked like that, then I would be out of there.
The problem with Christianity isn't so much the belief in Christ- who was by most accounts a pretty cool guy- but rather a large group of individuals who have sought personal gain by using Christ as an excuse. In short, its not the God... its the religion.
That being said, there is a great amount of good that has and can come from a belief in Christ. Artwork, science (yes science, like it or not the catholic church was pretty much responsible for the progression of science for 300 plus years) medicine (a great many hospitals-including St. Jude-- are supported or have been supported by the church) and a whole host of humanitarian efforts. (Think salvation army)
In addition, there is great potential for individual growth that comes from aspiring to become like Christ. The problem comes in believing that you have succeeded.
I tend to think about it like electricity. Electricity is beneficial to lots of people, but is is also used to kill people all the time. Its not electricity's fault that it is being used as a weapon.No Invisible Super Being Believers = No Religion.
No electricity=No electric chair
Jerami. You are the one making the claims. YOU prove the nonsense you spout. YOU. YOU are the one so blinded.
I have accepted that the Flying Spaghetti Monster is my creator, with the life giving power of His precious Holy Ramen Noodles.
@Evolution Guy,
this link is for YOU. I meant to put it in before. You spoke of how I needed to see a professional
Here is my hub on people like me who have won Nobel prizes, abolished slavery, etc.
Enjoy
http://hubpages.com/hub/A-List-of-Famou … -IllnessesAgreed.
I agree too. It is refreshing to see a believer admit they hold selectively irrational beliefs in a god instead of trying to argue that there is some rational or scientific basis for their beliefs.
This honesty tends to cause less conflicts than the majority of believers who claim some rational or logical reasoning because there is no imperative to be right.
Pity you cannot all admit your beliefs are wholly irrational and stop causing so many conflicts by insisting they are real.Perhaps you missed my earlier post, where I accepted and conceded the point that my belief in God may indeed be irrational. I, however, do not wish to, nor do I make any attempt to push those beliefs on others. So, while my beliefs may be irrational, my behavior is not. Attempting to sell God to you as a fact would indeed be irrational - just as it is irrational for you to try to sell the fact that there is no God. When you can prove that there is no God, I will concede that I am a fool.
Until then, I will hold to my belief. Carry on holding whatever you hold as truth.
I won't badger you, or debate you.
I would humbly request that you do the same.
I don't know that I can reasonably expect that, though.
Here's hoping.
But religion is nonsense and seeks to explain nothing. Science deals with reality.
I do not respect the viewpoints of your religion.
Born in sin?
Divorce is a sin?
"If you are not with me, you are against me."
Disgusting and divisive.
I wonder if you have actually read your bible? You are actually comparing religion and science as the same thing? This is why you need to rationalize a little.OK
Those aren't my beliefs.
Yes and several other books too.
Comparing reactions to religion and science. From my POV.
I do all the time, when I'm not practicing selective irrationality.So - you quite openly admit you just made your entire religion up in that case? Reactions to known facts and reactions to religion cannot be compared. This is selective irrationality all right. And a powerful barrier to clear communication.
So - it is your decision as to whether it is right or wrong to kill some one? Your religion does not tell you? Despite the bible - you just make your own stuff up and selectively believe what the bible says. Sounds like all the other Christian cults to me.
You seem to be being deliberately obtuse now though and managed to achieve my confusion because i have no idea what you just said next.Yes, honestly I was being purposely obtuse.
Yes, EG it is my decision on whether or not it is right to kill someone. It would be regardless of my faith. My inclinations led me to my faith rather than the other way around. If a book told me to kill someone, I wouldn't do it.
Yes, I selectively believe what the bible, or any other source for that matter, tells me. If I am undecided, however, I will read what the Bible to seek guidance but it's not my only source. I will go to as many different outlets as needed before I reach a decision. If that means the Bible, The Torah, a psychologist, my mom, three encyclopedias and the old lady with all the cats down the street, then so be it.
I really am having a slight bit of difficulty understanding why you think that I must be an illogical, prejudiced, child-molesting war monger with no individual thought of my own just because I believe that a really good guy died on a cross and did so with grace.That is what the witch burners thought as well. Still - they were not real Christians were they?
I genuinely did not understand what you said next.
Gotta go.
No. They are based on Greek philosophy and Roman courts originally. Then Christianity interjected itself, stole some of those ideas and took over the system by war and murder. Most civil law in Europe was based on Roman law until the Church forced control, and now most European laws are secular and have moved away from the biblical nonsense. Biblical law was a relatively recent introduction and the Byzantine and Roman Empires still contributed a great deal to the basis of the courts, even as Christians were murdering their way across Europe and imposing nonsensical laws for Jesus.
Thank goodness atheists are no longer burned at the stake for not accepting Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior and women who are discovered not to be virgins on their marriage night are no longer stoned to death, huh? Biblical laws disgust me - as they should you. And probably would do if you bothered to read the bible.
Have you actually read any thing at all? Any books? There are some good history books you could use to educate yourself instead of repeating the lies other believers spout as fact.
Try "A World Lit Only By Fire" by William Manchester, and "Roman Law in European History" by Peter Stein. They are both well written and interesting - and you might discover some actual facts instead of leaping to the defense of your religion with nonsense and mis-information.
- Motown2Chitownposted 12 years ago0
Oh, I forgot. Time for my daily "You're all wrong!"
No matter what you believe or don't I think I'm better than you.
*Smirks, ducks, and runs* A random thought.
"Religion is the opium of the masses" seems to be well wrong to me.
I have had opium, and it made me feel very relaxed and peaceful.
I felt no desire to go on a forum and flog it at all, in fact it probably lowers the subconscious terror of death that creates religious belief in the first place..- bri36posted 12 years ago0
I took a quick look, but did not think it would change the usual responses.
Sense of humour is exorcised by religion.Oh please....
Nobody has demonized you in your thread. Your post is tad bit overly inflated. Apparently you wish you were getting that type of attention.
No just messing about again. By the way, nice refereeing in that other thread.I will never forget to laugh on the religious forums!
They can be hilarious at times.Well, earnest, when I said 'people' I meant alot of people. I think you know you were one of few exceptions.
Yep! I have to say some of the fire and brimstone types had had a humourectomy.
I did say so... Motown got it all the way back on page one.
I don't know about christians and war zones and all that, but I do know I don't like being called sweetie. I'm way way too bitter for that.
Well it got a few arguments going, some of it was even about religion!
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