Should we expect God to punish us when we disobey him?

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lamarkyoung4posted 12 years ago

We as christian are taught that we must live by what we learn in the bible. We must treat our trangressers as we have also trangressed against someone as well.
Hebrews 5:8
Although He was a Son, He learned [active, special] obedience through what He suffered
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  wba108@yahoo.composted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I have a different take on this in that suffering is not necessarily a punishment. It says that those who bear fruit will be pruned so they will be more fruitful. So it isn't a punishment to be pruned but the mark of a father son relationship. Hardships come with a redeptive purpose and not necessarily do to any evil doing on our part.
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  Ms Deeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  wba's thinking is along the line of what I believe the Bible teaches, too.
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  Freegoldmanposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, he cares very much about our actions, both the good actions, and the bad (sinful) actions. If I were you, I wouldn't be listening to the former advice you got! God gave each of us a conscience...con means with...and science means knowledge...so each time we sin, we do it with knowledge that it's wrong. He also wrote his Laws upon our hearts...let me ask you a quick question...do you think that you're a good person? Under men's standards, each of us can think of ourselves as being good...however, we should be looking at what God requires instead. God gave us the Ten Commandments so that we could figure out how we measure up to His standards. 9th Commandment - Have you ever lied? If so, that makes you a liar. 8th Commandment - Have you ever stolen anything, regardless of its value? If so, you're a thief. 3rd Commandment - Have you ever taken God's name in vain? If so, you have taken the name of the God that gave you life and dragged it through the mud, and the Bible calls that blasphemy. Jesus said that if you do so much as look at someone with lust, you commit adultery in your heart. If a person is being honest, the majority would have to answer yes to all of the above. And if you did, you just admitted that God would see you as a lying, thieving, blaphemous, adulterer at heart...and this is only 4 of the 10 Commandments. Then you have to ask yourself the following two questions...would God find you innocent or guilty of breaking His laws? If you're honest, you would have to say that you're just as guilty as the rest of us...would He send you to heaven or hell? Most people here would say heaven, thinking that He would have to be a more forgiving God than this...think about what you're saying here...if God were to let people go into heaven, who have broken His laws, then He would be an unjust (corrupt) judge. Now, let me ask you a final question...what did God do so that we would not have to go to hell?...Two thousand years ago, God became a man in Jesus Christ
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  Obscure_Treasuresposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Now everyone who accepts that sacrifice - the sacrifice of Jesus as the Lamb of God - is forgiven, redeemed and reconciled to God. Jesus' death paid the total price of sin! There is no price left to pay.
  
  All you, me or anyone else has to do is accept by faith God's merciful act in Jesus and the law of sin and death will no longer have a hold on our lives. The law of the spirit of life in Christ will make us free from all of the miseries arising from sin both now and hereafter. (Romans 8:2)
  
  For the believer there is no fearful expectation of punishment but intense joy at salvation.
  
  If you have not yet accepted Jesus and His sacrifice you can do so now by praying this simple prayer.
  
  "Heavenly Father, I accept your Son Jesus as my Lord and Saviour. I accept the sacrifice He made for me. I invite Jesus to come into my heart and life. I believe that Jesus is alive today because You, Father, raised Him from the dead. I accept Him and with Him I accept life - eternal life, the life of God. I now receive my privilege of becoming your child, I renounce citizenship of the kingdom of darkness and receive citizenship of the kingdom of your Son. In Jesus' Name, I pray. Amen."
  
  Link to this text: Saved from the consequences of sin! - How can God ever punish us for our sins? http://www.teachingpages.co.uk/answers. … z1TlLACjQ4
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  Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The whole idea of Jesus suffering and dieing on the cross wasn't about us having to suffer in order to be saved.
  
  At that time when a person owed a debt that he couldn't pay, they were sent to the auction block, and sold as slaves for a period of time until that debt was paid.
  
  That persons friends or family or even a total stranger is given the oppertunity to redeem that person by paying the debt,allowing that person being redeamed to go free.
  
  Mankinds sins were great. the price of redemption would have been great. Jesus paid a great price in his suffering.
  As the story goes, his suffering could not have been greater.
  
  Jesus didn't learn obedience. He taught obedience.
  
  Just my opinion!
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  KeithTaxposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Why should He punish us? We are created in His own image. We only do what part of Him would do.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Using that analysis then my kids should do 50% of what I do?
  
  Aint happening...even though they have that potential,and who knows maybe in a way they do already.
  
  If we understand the image God is talking about then perhaps we would understand the whole concept better
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Wouldn't a more accurate statement be if we could understand the image your personal opinion of what God is talking about we'd understand your whole concept better? I haven't seen evidence of a consensus among the religious, as of yet.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Inaccurate ,but nice try at twisting my thoughts
  
  Because you dont even know what my concept is?
  
  You know what they say about 'assume' ahem
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Hey. I missed this one. There was no insult intended. The point was simply that is your take on the whole thing. Doesn't mean that it's the word of any god. It's your understanding. Called me an *ss did you? Well, I oughta....
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes you are correct ,it is my take on 'Gods word'
  
  And nooooooo...well yes ....but was including myself in that 'assume' cliche
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  SirDentposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Just as a dad might correct his son for doing something he wasn't supposed to do, God will likewise correct his children. People like to use the word punish because it sounds more violent than using the word correct.
  
  A dad who does not correct his children, does not love his children.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Good point Sir Dent
  And of course the word discipline, comes from the word disciple ,which meant to instruct and teach.
  
  Far to much common sense there. lol
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  Woman Of Courageposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I don't know why some fight so hard against using common sense.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  A dad who drowns all of his children, or turns them into pillars of salt, or commands people to wipe out towns and villages to correct them is a mass murderer.
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  SirDentposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  
  So you are saying that if your child played on the freeway after you told him not to, it is then your fault if he does not listen to you and ends up getting run over by a semi?
  
  God said, "Touch not and handle not the unclean thing. The wages of sin is death, so don't sin and you will live."
  
  How many times must a person be warned of danger before it is enough?
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  How do you draw that conclusion? I never said anything about laying blame.
  
  But, if my child was playing on the freeway after I told him not to, I certainly wouldn't drown him or turn him into a pillar salt as a way to correct him.
  
  How many times will God kill people as a way of correcting them? Do you kill people to correct them? Is that moral?
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  SirDentposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Lot's wife was told not to look back. She did it anyway and she paid the price. You ddid lay blame when you said that God kills His children.
  
  When you buy fruit at the market and all of it doesn't get eaten and what's left rots, do you keep the rotten fruit?
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Of course not! You send the fruit to burn in eternal hellfire. I hope those bananas learn their lesson from now on.
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  SirDentposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  
  So you send them to the garbage heap, (Gehenna)?
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Good analogy, Dent. If you can throw bananas in the garbage heap and they stay there for eternity, it would be a fantastic breakthrough for food preservation.
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  SirDentposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  
  They actually do stay there. They might change form but they never leave.
  
  Came back to edit: I will be away for a while now and unable to respond until later. Keep it plain and keep it simple.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  But their progeny may leave from the dump. They may even sprout and produce more of the same species of fruit while in the dump.
  
  Yep, great comparison, Dent. Watch out and don't step on those banana peels now, ya heah! Keeping it simple for you?
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Lots wife was murdered for looking back? Is that how your god shows his love to his children? Is that how you would discipline your children, SirDent?
  
  Sorry, but I have a lot more appreciation for human beings than I do fruit. I don't just discard humans like I would a rotten apple.
  
  Would you just throw away your children if they were "rotten"?
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  SirDentposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  She was warned not to look back and she knew that something bad would happen if she did. (I already went over this in a previous comment to you)
  
  Tell a child to not put a screwdriver in an outlet because it will hurt them. If they do it anyway and they get hurt, who is at fault?
  
  I imagine if one of your children was to pass before you, you would keep it's body with you at all times?
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  If I use your the same logic from the above example of Lot's wife being warned and losing her life towards your second example, I would have to kill my child for putting the screwdriver into the outlet. Is that correct?
  
  No, but I also wouldn't kill my child as a form of punishment.
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  SirDentposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Wrong. It is possible the skock from touching the screwdriver to the hot side of the outlet could kill the child. Are you then to blame because you told the chilkd not to do it?
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  If the child dies from the outlet, the child is dead and there's not much anyone can do.
  
  If the child is going to put the screwdriver into the outlet but you stop them before they do, are you going to correct their behavior by killing them? Again, the child is dead and there's not much anyone can do.
  
  I wouldn't be to blame for the child dying from touching the outlet, because it wasn't me who killed the child.
  
  But, Lot's wife died because God killed her for looking over her shoulder.
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  SirDentposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It seems you have trouble comprehending. God said, "Do not look back." God never warns anyone not to do something unless there is soemthing going to happen if they do it.
  
  Just as you would try to stop your child from putting the driver in the outlet, God tried to stop Lot's wife from looking back. If you fail in stopping your child even after you tell him he will get hurt, is it still your fault? If your child is an adult and does the same thing, is it your fault?
  
  The thing is this. Lot's wife looked back knowing something bad would happen, but she did it anyway.
  
  You can keep blaming God all you want, but it means nothing.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It does mean something if it was God who did the bad thing to Lots wife when she looked back. He killed her, no one else did.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Why not merely say "the bible says" instead of "God says"? There is no actual basis your god said anything, Dent. What you have is merely hearsay written long before you ever existed on this planet.
  
  Do you speak for your god? Or merely quote from a book written by anonymous authors claiming to speak for your god? Stick to "the bible says" if you wish to be truthful here.
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  SirDentposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  
  Sometimes I do speak for my God. Just because you do not believe, doesn't mean God didn't speak.
  
  It is like this, in a way. I can tell you what my son said and if I tell you what he said you might believe it or not but you can't say for sure because you do not know him. Since I know what he actually said, I know it personally.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well my god Moe says you are full of it, Dent. He says"gods which use terror to gain followers are on the low rung of the god ladder and their followers are still standing on the ground."
  
  Do you believe Moe is wrong?
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  SirDentposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  
  It doesn't matter what Moe says. Yes, I believe Moe is wrong though I have no idea who Moe is, unless you are speaking of Mohammad.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  How exactly did you "know what your god said.? Were you actually there when he told the anonymous writer? I'm looking forward to reading "The gospel according to Sir Dent."
  
  I certainly hope you don't depend on someone else to wait several hundreds of years before putting your actual words down like those in your book. I might not be around to read your supposed words then.
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  SirDentposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  
  The Gospel according to Dent.
  
  All are sinners and have gone against God. God made a way out of getting thrown into the garbage heap, (Gehenna). Jesus is the way. Accept Him and be saved.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Jesus? There is no record of such a person with this name ever existing other than in your novel written long after he was supposedly alive.
  
  So I feel Moe is the way instead. Besides, I just can't get past your god knocking up a 13 year old, already betrothed virgin while she was asleep. I wonder why he had to choose such a very young female who was already promised to someone else? What does your novel have to say about this?
  
  Do you consider this being "godly" if it happens today?
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  SirDentposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Are you the forum jester now?
  
  I could probably write a hub on this subject. Have you read all of the Old Testament?
  
  Go back through the Old Testament and find the times when women asked for a son. Do you know why they would ask for a son specifically? I can't recall any of them ever asking for a daughter.
  
  They all wanted to birth the Messiah. I am sure that every girl in Israel wanted to birth the Messiah.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  ...But if your countrys leader orders it done ,they get a special day to honor them? not too mention a hefty salary..
  
  There are consquences for breaking ANY law.
  Don't you think if mankind quit being so stubborn and hardheadedlife just might go a little easier on him.
  
  It is often said that history is the greatest teacher, and I know if I kept getting my hand burned every time I reached into the fire, I would seriously be looking at a new way of doing things by now.
  
  Or the alternative ( and some cry ..not fair..we want the benefits ,but no change in our behaviour or attitude) just carry on doing whatever you want and accept the consquences.
  You might not like it, agree with it, or even understand it,but as sure as sun follows day, Gods laws are His laws,it is a brave (or foolish man who would rebel knowingly.
  As I said history predicts.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It's not Gods laws I have so much a concern with as the punishments inflicted, which are usually fatal.
  
  I don't see how the taking of ones life is a corrective behavior that should be taught by a religion, especially for "crimes" like looking back over ones shoulder.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I dont understand that either .I am glad that I have never ever had to contemplate that instruction ,bit of a no brainer for me really.
  Wouldnt do it,but then again Ive never needed to die for the worlds sins either.
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Cagsilposted 12 years ago
What god?
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  kmackey32posted 12 years agoin reply to this
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  randallfposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Very good point
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Randy Godwinposted 12 years ago
Which god? There have been hundreds of gods in this planets history. All invisible, so far.
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lamarkyoung4posted 12 years ago
I am speaking of the one who sent his son to die for your sins.
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  A god sent his son to die for other peoples' sins?
  
  Do you know how idiotic a father must be, to do something of that nature?
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  How do you know the other gods didn't do the same?
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  And you are probably speaking to those who believe.
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Actually EK, he is speaking to everyone. It is a public forum.
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  Woman Of Courageposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  lamarkyoung, Jesus dying for the sins of everyone is the greatest love of all. Awesome! God is full of wisdom and he has made a way to save all of us. Repentance and receiving Christ is the key.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It would seem that killing your son was more a knee-jerk reaction and not very wise.
  
  It would have been so simple for God to just show himself to everyone and show everyone his love. That's wisdom.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  What a big deal sacrifice your god made. Now if he wasn't able to simply bring his illegitimate offspring right back to life whenever he chose, it might make sense. What did he have to lose?
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lamarkyoung4posted 12 years ago
It does not sound idiotic to me you must take into effect that God is your FATHER as well, so for him to send anyone to die for the sins you have committed you should rejoice. Because a sinner like yourself would not have done this for himself. If your faith is weak it is you who shall peraish so if you never come to the Lord then it would be your lost. LET me ask you a question what are you gonna do when the Lord asks you on JUDGEMENT DAY why you knowing my laws and ways chose to ignore them? Should I ignore you know the same way?
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lamarkyoung4posted 12 years ago
I know not about the Gods you speak. So if you have some relavent knowledge of some other God then you know something I don't. If you chose to follow false Gods then you shall be judged on your actions, so go with what you believe but you are anyone else can ever shake my faith in the one and only true God.
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I am not speaking of a god, you are.
  Well, the god you seem to be talking about came directly from a book or from your imagination.
  What god?
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Read the OP, dude. Duh.
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I read the OP. But, thank you for your useless input. You're a shining example.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Did you not understand it then? Why ask such a silly question?
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Sure, I understood it. Is there a particular reason why you are questioning my questioning of the OP? I wasn't even talking to you in the first place. Do you foolishly ask people stupid questions, when they are not talking to you?
  Silly question? Only you are asking such questions. My question was legitimate. Too bad you don't know the difference.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I was hoping some day you might make a post that doesn't contain insults, but that is far too much to ask.
  
  If you understood the OP, in which the author says he is a Christian and posted something with the word "Jesus" on it, why would you ask what god he was referring? Isn't that obvious?
  
  So, you're saying your question was legitimate even though the OP says he is a Christian. Please explain how asking him what god he is talking about is legitimate?
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Again, seeing insults that doesn't exist. Good for you.
  Jesus was a human man. What's your point?
  No it's not obvious, because Jesus was just a very intelligence human.
  Yes.
  And, you're the last person on this f*ing planet I need to explain myself to. Get a life.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  They exist and you wrote them. Not good for you.
  
  LOL! Playing dumb now? Are you actually saying that in all the time you've been here and living on this planet, you don't know that Christians consider Jesus as their god? What a whopper!
  
  Wow! Serious anger issues there, pal. I suppose that's what happens when an inflated ego gets stuck with pins. LOL!
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  Andrew0208posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Cagsil, I don't know why you may choose to make mockery of peoples' belief even if you claim not to believe in anything. Thats 100% unruly. Live and let others live!
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Hey Andrew,
  
  What part of do you NOT understand. Jesus, claimed ALL PEOPLE are gods. So asking which god isn't mocking.
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  Andrew0208posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I dislike your use of offensive words like "idiotic father." You may be indirectly calling many idiots here. BEWARE!
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Oh well. It wasn't directed AT you, so you shouldn't worry about it.
  That's a poor assumption on your part now, isn't it?
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  Andrew0208posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Not to me Cagsil is the point, generally, The phrase is 100% abusive, may be you don't know. You must not use offensive words to make your point.
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  IntimatEvolutionposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I have to agree with your points here. The original poster clearly put this under the subdomain of Christianity and the teachings of Jesus... So his "what god" question was truly pointless.
  
  I think he was just trying to be cute or something. But Cags was certainly not trying to contribute to this "public forum" where everyone has the right to answer whomever they like.
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Correct, on two point IE, it is a public forum, which I am part of the public. And, secondly it is my right to question anything I choose to.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Absolutely correct, you have the right to ask any question of any post you are unable to understand, no matter how simple or obvious they are. Learning disabilities should not be taken lightly and we are only to happy to assist.
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Hey Troubled, you lack of understanding is beginning to get annoying.
  
  Christians follow Jesus. Jesus claims ALL PEOPLE were gods.
  
  So asking "What god?" is a legitimate question.
  Learning disability is on behalf of those who are Christian. They lack the knowledge of their own religion.
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  IntimatEvolutionposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That is so misleading and a rubbish point to make. If it was really as you say then why all the hostilities towards your fellow hubbers? It is bs that is why and you just pulled that out of your magic hat to fit your needs. Something a child would do in a similar situation. This is a grown up forum. Grown up behavior is expected Cags.
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Then grow up IE
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  IntimatEvolutionposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  This coming from you? hardy hard harr....
  
  I am not the one pulling lame excuses out my arsenal and passing them off as facts. You are. Thought you were being cute about too, didn't you?
  
  Whatever. Thanks for the laughs though. You are hoot today.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Oh no, what's really bothering you is the fact that your posts are riddled with discrepancies and you're getting called on them.
  
  That is your reason for asking what god?
  
  You are here to teach them and you don't even know Christians consider Jesus to be their god? This is too much! LOL!
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The OP is assuming for everyone there is but one god. Unless he can prove this is so, others with different gods might take offense. My god Moe doesn't need to torment mortals for eternity or molest 13 year old virgins either. A much nicer god than yours, apparently.
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  IntimatEvolutionposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  But he did title this under Christianity. Not Muslim, not Hindu, but Christianity. Hello.... Christianity.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So christians only post on christian forums? I have no proof of you being a christian, or do I?
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  IntimatEvolutionposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That's not the point. You posted something about 13 virgins. I posted this so you would know the topic was on Christianity. Your responses led me to think otherwise. So question then tell me what facts support your comment about 13 virgins and what does 13 virgins have to do with being punished by the Christian God since this is a topic on Christianity?
  
  You see as a Christian i am not aware of any 13 virgins in my faith. Hence my post. Now if there are relevant facts supporting your comment where you mention 13 virgins and its link to this topic I am all ears.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry IE, that's not true. I posted that my god Moe didn't feel the need to impregnate a 13 year old betrothed virgin like one deity claimed to do. Perhaps your god wouldn't do such a thing, though.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It's obvious he's just baiting and trolling the author of the OP.
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Actually, since I've been a member here and written plenty of articles on HP, unlike you.
  
  Who is trolling or baiting others?
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  IntimatEvolutionposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  This subject was placed under all the right subdomain headings. Asking what god or gods is just being inconsiderate of the hubber posting and childish in behavior towards other hubbers looking to debate under the heading of Christianity. The original poster didn't ask about other religions he asked a very specific question under a very specific heading. It is quite clear whose the troll(s) in here. Again... Making points off target. Its becoming a bad habit of Cags I see.
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I asked one question. If you don't like the fact that I asked the question, then too bad.
  
  What god? Is a legitimate question, regardless of the heading on the forum thread. Got it?
  Correct it was posted under Christianity, and under the Bible....Jesus claims ALL PEOPLE WERE GODS!
  
  So, what god?
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That has to be the lamest excuse.
  
  Citation please, where did Jesus claim, ALL PEOPLE WERE GODS!?
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It's in the bible. Enough said.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Then, show me the quote from the bible. Exonerate yourself or dig that hole just a little bit deeper.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  cagsil, it looks like they are all piling up on you. Let me help a little. It's John 10:34 if they ask for citation again. Don't let them get you down.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Read on Ahab. It's all in the interpretation. Just because Cags got something different than you did doesn't make him wrong.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  LOL! Yes, perhaps Cagsil will interpret it that way. I'm sure it's ample reason for him to ask the question, "What god?"
  
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well, I would expect no less from you. You being one who assumes everyone should stay in line with very very (and I do mean to belabor the point this time) very limited interpretations of any given thing.
  
  This is your debating style. I was somewhat disappointed in reading the rest of the dialogue contained in this thread.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So sorry that you must put words in other peoples mouths to defend yourself and make your point. I expected no more from you.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I see nothing in my post where I put words in anyone's mouth. Just an observation gleaned from conversations with you.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah, sure.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Oh, my. That is such a well formed rebuttal. You are the truly the master debater when you don't have a leg to stand on.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Let's recap. You said this:
  
  "You being one who assumes everyone should stay in line with very very (and I do mean to belabor the point this time) very limited interpretations of any given thing."
  
  I never said anything of the sort or gave any impression whatsoever. Then you said:
  
  "Just an observation gleaned from conversations with you."
  
  Whether you assume it to be a valid observation or not, they are still YOUR words and not mine, so I don't need to go on repeating myself. But, you still felt the need to say:
  
  "Oh, my. That is such a well formed rebuttal. You are the truly the master debater when you don't have a leg to stand on."
  
  Now you are being dishonest, so we are done.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That was a much better rebuttal.
  
  However, until you show some evidence of not doing exactly what you said you would do (and yes, you did say it), I can only assume you were being honest when you posted in the first place. This has nothing to do with any problems with honesty on my part.
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  IntimatEvolutionposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Lame as lame gets... that comment was way out there in left field somewhere between idiotic and lame.
  
  It is too bad that this thread has reverted to this type of rhetoric. Especially when the original poster asked a legitimate question on a particular subject.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No doubt, Cagsil is feverishly trying to search for a quote that will save him from himself. Will he find it? Will it show his question of asking "What God" as legitimate?
  
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  John 10:34 is what he was referring to. You've had enough fun already with this one. Don't you think?
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Aww Emile ,Cags is a big enough to dish it out,he must learn to take it too -we all do
  
  Nobodys picking on him.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes. Fine christian behavior displayed all around here. Childish games for a childish religion.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I disagree.
  Christians welcome correction.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I doubt you would find anywhere in your texts where it teaches to gang up on someone who you consider to be in the wrong. But, if you have a citation I would be more than interested in reading it.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Citation ?
  
  Are we in the San Hendrin Emile?
  
  For goodness sake this is a discussion and Cags has left the building
  
  It is nice you feel you have to defend Cags, but like I said he wasnt being picked on, nor ganged up on.
  
  I will not be told by you or anyone else on here, how a Christian should behave either ,while others are free to insult ,name call,and make inuendo's.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Maybe he's talking with Jesus right now so he can get him to sign up on Hubpages and back his claim.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Interesting how he is proven correct in his statement and the comments continue. It begins to sound as if whether he had a point or not was not the issue.
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  IntimatEvolutionposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No he wasn't. Why are you fighting his battles? Are you his mommy? In my bible the word is enlighten. Now in my humble opinion there's a big difference from being a god to becoming enlighten.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You can at least be honest. Not ganging up? You complimented someone for the following comments:
  
  It is quite clear whose the troll(s) in here
  You were out of line. Still are... so be a grown up
  That is so misleading and a rubbish point to make. If it was really as you say then why all the hostilities towards your fellow hubbers? It is bs that is why and you just pulled that out of your magic hat to fit your needs. Something a child would do
  Lame as lame gets... that comment was way out there in left field somewhere between idiotic and lame.
  
  I am not the one pulling lame excuses out my arsenal
  
  Your exact words were I like your responses
  
  Once you've had your fun you should, at the least, be willing to call it for what it was.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Intimate Evolutions post?
  
  I did agree with most of her post.I.E is also responding to to something Cags said.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The thread will stand on its own. I doubt anyone that reads through the conversation between the four of you would come to any other conclusion than I did.
  
  Bravo. To all of you. Very mature way to deal with conflict.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Oh are you keeping score
  
  Psst thats a lil bit sad isnt it ,and by the way where are you when Cags openly calls people ignorant and clueless ,because they dont agree with him.
  
  Yet nobody called Cags those names even
  .
  He is entitled too,of course ,because thats right ,its a public forum.
  
  Emile you need thicker skin to play in this sandpit
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  IntimatEvolutionposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  And you think you're handling yourself so much better now?
  
  Please... I will let your absurd comment speak for itself here.
  
  What riot you are.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  We probably shouldn't worry too much, Emile is doing almost as much irreparable damage defending Cagsil as Cagsil is doing for the non-believer argument.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You may, or may not, be right. But, I do owe you, and only you, an apology and I'm not one to wait when it is due.
  
  I had no right being somewhat rude to you. I thought the conversation was unfair to cagsil and I chose you to post to in order to point it out. That was wrong. It was your little peanut gallery that I should probably have limited my comments to.
  
  I doubt you will accept the apology, but that's ok too. Apologies are more about doing the right thing, than they are about how they will be received.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Thing is as much as I debate with Cags-I like him
  
  Emile too ,I thought sounds different but thats cool and hey I like people!
  
  But kids it not your forum,ok
  
  The teacher did not leave you in charge
  
  Lets just all have a group hug (insert face with arms outstretched)
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Inserting face with arms outstretched.
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  IntimatEvolutionposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Ditto. Spot on Eaglekiwi! Well said.
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Hey Troubled, no one needs to defend me. I had more urgent real-life business to take care, which is why I left the thread.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I'm so relieved, we were just lost without you.
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Nice condescending post.
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  IntimatEvolutionposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry to read that Cags hope all is well.
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes IE, all is well. Thank you.
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  IntimatEvolutionposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Good.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Hmm even though you insult my God ,I will be bigger and not insult yours.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  ..Which I bet he is regretting about now
  
  By the way ,I like your responses IE ,oh look cool initials too,lol.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You are. Plain and simple.
  
  Anyone with an ounce of logic can understand that it doesn't matter at all whether you've written hubs and I have not, that doesn't change the fact you are trolling and baiting others.
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I'm sure it was plain and simple to you, but then again I was not talking to you to begin with.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  But YOU just said it was a Public Forum above to me
  
  Is it different for you
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It doesn't matter whether you were talking to me or not, this is a public forum, these are also your words:
  
  "...what part do you NOT get with regards to it being a public forum?"
  
  Hoisted by your own petard.
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Right, it is a public forum, and you're attempting to twist it to suit your own sadness.
  
  When someone posts a reply to someone's post, it means they are talking directly to that person.
  
  Before YOU interrupted my conversation with the OP....I was talking directly to someone who isn't YOU.
  
  If I wanted to talk to you and this was a true public forum, which means, were in person- then I would have told you to mind your own business, because I was not talking to you.
  
  Do you always have a habit of jumping into conversations of other people who are in "real" public, even when you were not invited into the conversation?
  
  If so, then YOU are the rude one.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  What a hypocrite.
  
  You don't jump into and interrupt conversations when others are not talking with you?
  
  Come on, lie to me some more. LOL!
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  Woman Of Courageposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  A Troubled Man, It's doesn't take long to notice when one refuses to see their own faults. Odd when a person feels entitled to be rude and condescending to others.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Exactly ...
  
  He begins the OP AS 'We as Christians'...AND since you are not a Christian Cags, why did you think he was speaking to you ?
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Hey EK, what part do you NOT get with regards to it being a public forum?
  
  He was speaking to ALL people. It makes NO difference what the heading of it.
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  IntimatEvolutionposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It does make a difference what headings were or are used. You were out of line. Still are... so be a grown up here admit it and move on.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Do you think by being condscending it will change the facts...
  
  (And it wasnt the title ,I was refering to,it was the OP's question)
  
  If someone asks a question about God ,you respond by what God?
  
  There are times when saying nothing at all -says it best of all.
  
  Oh my!
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, there are times when saying nothing is a good thing and there are also times when saying nothing is BAD too.
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  Andrew0208posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well observed...You must not use abusive words like 'idiot' in the forums no matter the discusions whatsoever. If God doesn't exist in your existence then give way for others to exist as you do. You can only explain properly what you know, and not what you don't know about(God), as He(Spirit), in your claim; does not exist.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well said ,another words ,respect.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  People with over-inflated egos never consider anything they say as being insulting. They can say whatever they want, and then they'll say everyone else has an ego problem.
  
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Would your post be an example of that?
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Sure, are you happy now?
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  Woman Of Courageposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  They usually say say everyone has a ego problem to get the attention off themselves. It's quite obvious who has a over-inflated ego.
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  Evolution Guyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  How brave u r to say this. LOL
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Eaglekiwiposted 12 years ago
Yep I disciplined my kids ,so I expect any loving parent to correct and instruct.

God is not a Santa Claus or sugar daddy
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lamarkyoung4posted 12 years ago
Yes I am talking to true believers, but not limited to, just us because say they don't believe that is not there whole story half of them have been hurt or disappointed and have never came to terms with it so they tend to lash out. I don't mind because as long as they are coming at me it is a chance to bring them to our Lord so send them all and in the end our Lord will get the glory
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I see no great sacrifice if your god can simply bring his son back to life. Perhaps you can enlighten me how this is a big deal? If he had left him dead it might seem like he actually lost something instead of merely going through the motions.
  
  I'll wager you inherited your beliefs from your parents or never actually looked at what other religions had to offer. Am I wrong?
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Jeramiposted 12 years ago
OP ..Should we expect God to punish us when we disobey him?

I don't think so ! Most often the deed that we do comes around or eventually takes it's toll.

Most often what we understand to be punishment; isn't at all.

Sometimes God places a road block in front of us which keeps us from falling over the edge, and we understand that to be punishment.... BUT it isn't.

Unfortunately! sometimes other people think that by doing a good thing doing Gods work by helping that person over their "Times of trouble" When in fact they are not. they are removing Gods barrier of protection.

Ssooo to answer the OP ... I don't think God punishes us here on earth. The product of the deeds we have done does that.

BUT, this too is just an opinion.
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Emile Rposted 12 years ago
No one should be punished for not obeying God as defined by your faith. It would be unreasonable.

Not taking into account any but the monotheistic faiths; you claim a God and believe that you have to abide by the words in the Bible and only by agreeing with you can someone know God. The Jews claim a God and believe they must live by the laws in their Torah, they are the true children of God. The Muslims claim a God and must live by the words in their Quran; everyone else are infidels. Reality shows no sign of any God.

You fight between yourselves within the religions, you fight amongst yourselves between the religions. The examples you set are rife with prejudice, injustice and a lack of compassion for your fellow man. Why would anyone think that, if there is a God, any of you have any relationship with one at all?

Would a kind and omnipotent presence expect any intelligent human being to make a choice and follow any of your leads? I couldn't imagine one expecting that.

So, if there is a God; it is obvious this God has chosen to not weigh in on human affairs. There is no Divine retribution for not listening to religious tripe.
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Precise.
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Emile Rposted 12 years ago
I submit the last five minutes of discussion on this thread as clear evidence that there is no God that punishes us. Otherwise, there'd be a few people sent to the corner until they could kiss and make up. Sheesh.
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Randy Godwinposted 12 years ago
What a laugh this thread is! Check any evolution forum topic here and you will find many "christians" weighing in with all sorts of ridiculous claims (some of them here on this very forum) trying to ridicule a theory some of us "believe in" and discuss for it's scientific value.

These believers do not believe in evolution, just as we feel the same about their invisible deities. But do we tell them they should not comment or give their opinions because they don't believe in evolution? No, they have a right to do so just as we do here.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Excellent point.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No Randy its not about differences of opinion at all.
  
  More in the delivery (perhaps)
  
  It is the respect or disrespect often shown when someone (anyone) voices or challenges another post.
  
  In itself should be no biggy,but well we can see tis not always that way
  
  By the way I am a Christian and believe all living things adapt and some species do evolve...but they never recreate a perfect new breed.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Perhaps you are correct, EK. Judging another person's "delivery" is often a reason to dislike the contents.
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lamarkyoung4posted 12 years ago
It is not your right to comment on anything but if you are commenting just to cause chaos then you are wrong. If you don't believe in God then then it is clear this topic was not for you but it is always the non- believers that want to argue or debate what you beleive in. Just like it is your choice to beleive in what you do. It is always your responiblity to reframe from insulting others beleifs as well. So if you can not do this there is no need for you ridcule others beleifs. At the end of the day we are suppose to be able not to offend people everytime we open our mouths to voice our opinons.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  But it is YOUR right to tell me what my rights are? Yep, I do believe you are a typical self proclaimed christian. Tell it all brother!
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  IntimatEvolutionposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It is a public forum.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  This what Cags and I said in the beginning.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Here are a couple of other things Cags said in this thread, one of which he was unable to back up and the other contradicted himself. His sound bites are for the most part quite nonsensical.
  
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Cags speaks his own mind just as you and I do. I don't know if you are new here or are merely posting under a different user name to hide your identity, but so far your credibility is in question because of your recent arrival and because you've no hubs to peruse.
  
  Not saying your opinion is worthless, just that your presence here lacks any basis to judge your opinions well at this point. It's the same for any newbie who suddenly begins to post regularly on these forums. I've been there too.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Allow me to point out the flaw in that argument.
  
  My credibility has everything to do with what I say, not where I say it, when I say it or how long I've been saying it. Having no hubs or being a recent arrival as a reason for credibility would conclude that those who have hubs and have been here longer than me MUST be credible. You and I both know that isn't valid by any stretch.
  
  Read what I say here and now if you wish to judge me honestly rather than just looking at my hub count or date of joining. They mean nothing at all.
  
  Cagsil has lots of hubs and has been here a long time, but it is so easy to show his arguments to be invalid and contradictory. He makes nonsensical claims that he can't support. Is he credible? Not by a long shot.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Nope, this shows you don't understand very much about these forums. Can you judge a stranger's worth in a very few minutes and rely on his word as much as you do a trusted longtime acquaintance? From your previous posts I would say you can't.
  
  But perhaps you have unique powers not given to rest of us here? Once again, if you do have this special talent, we will eventually find this out too. But no one gets a free ride here, TM. Even those with unusual powers.
  
  You are a stranger here. You will eventually earn your own credibility, either good or bad.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I understand forums perfectly, this one is no different than any other. Obviously, your explanation doesn't hold water because I can read your posts to see you don't rely on many peoples words who have been here a long time as you argue, debate and even ridicule them.
  
  My credibility will not be based on earning time spent here or anywhere else, but instead will be based on how well you or anyone else can debate me here and now.
  
  Cagsil has fallen short dramatically. Do you find he has credibility based on his posts or the fact he has been here longer than me?
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Did you forget to address the first question in my last post, TM?
  
  If you understand this forum perfectly then you would know you appear similar to trolls we've had many problems with here on HP. Your use of the word "obviously" seems to infer you are speaking for others here instead of merely giving your own views.
  
  I didn't indicate length of time here assured credibility, but it does tend to allow others to peruse more posts by a member the longer he/she is here. And it's great you have the psychic ability to see what others will think about your credibility, or lack thereof, in the future.
  
  Your opinion of Cags is yours alone to decide. Just as others have the same right to judge yours and mine.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I might remind you this is a public internet forum. Unless you and Cagsil see each other all the time in person, I can't imagine how any of us can be considered strangers and others trusted longtime acquaintances. Again, this is not a popularity contest, its a forum for discussion of topics.
  
  As to your question, I don't judge anyone's worth on a public forum at all, I look at the points they make in their posts and discuss them, which may take the form of asking questions or pointing out false conclusions, for example.
  
  Are you calling me out as a troll? Please do so and make sure you report those exact posts to the proper authorities.
  
  If you prefer to peruse a certain poster over another, that is your decision, but I have no idea what that has to do with my credibility.
  
  I'm not interested in forming an opinion of Cagsil, I'm more interested in him supporting his claims and explaining his posts, which for some reason, he refuses to do and instead tosses out lame insults. He seems to prefer I do form an opinion of him rather than his ideas. Odd behavior.
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It's been explained and you are the one who continues to call it false logic. And, you also continue to make claims of insults, even when no insult exist in the post you claim.
  Actually, you've done enough judging of statements made and fail to be honest with yourself, so that alone clearly speaks for itself.
  
  As for you wanting me to back up the claim of what Jesus said with regards to "all people are gods", I've made the post that verifies that, yet you've not addressed the post.
  
  So, now you have no leg to stand.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You've explained nothing and you know it.
  
  Sure, and it gave you all the reason in the world to ask the question, "What god?"
  
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "I don't judge anyone's worth on a public forum at all"
  
  Thanks for the answer. But why debate if your opposition's opinion doesn't mean anything at all to you? Since their worthiness to answer is moot, why bother?
  
  "Are you calling me out as a troll? Please do so and make sure you report those exact posts to the proper authorities."
  
  :lol:Have you got the number to the Anti-Troll authorities handy? I'm tellin'!
  
  What you prefer is your own business. Obtain it the best way you can. And "odd behavior" is nothing new here, neither are greenhorn writers and forum posters.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Why bother being here on these forums, you ask? Good question. I'm sure everyone has their own personal answer for that.
  
  Cool, I'm still a 'greenhorn writer' after writing for 25 years.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Are you suggesting length of time as a writer makes you more credible, worthy, or even a decent writer? Make up your mind, TM.
  
  "Why bother being here on these forums, you ask? Good question. I'm sure everyone has their own personal answer for that."
  
  So what is your "own personal answer"? Weren't you accusing Cags of avoiding your questions?
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Uh, I'm not sure from where you would infer that, but I never said anything of the sort. You said something about a greenhorn writer, I never said anything about credible, worthy or decent. And, don't condescend me about making up my mind.
  
  And where do you come off saying I'm accusing Cags of avoiding questions when I have been answering your questions.
  
  What is your point with this line of questioning? Are you trying to appear witty or something?
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "I don't judge anyone's worth on a public forum at all"
  
  Perhaps it was this statement you made earlier.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I kinda agree with you both,ya know a lil bit here and a lil bit over there.
  
  Randy,
  I remember when I was relatively new and certain hubbers (names not important really) but they had this 'click ' thing.
  Like teachers pets and one or two more senior members would rare their heads and attempt to squash the newbie into place. Occassionally you could hear the gnashing of the teeth.
  
  Even Mark had his shadows, kinda cutesy ,but predictable.
  
  I hated that kinda snootiness,school yard mentality. Most of that 'click' thing has disappeared now (I think) ,I guess changes or reality does that.
  
  ATroubledMan
  , You and Cags could go round and round for a long time. I have butted heads too,but thats bound to happen when independant free thinkers, (see can tell ,right now Cags wouldnt agree I fall into that catergory) voice their opinions and logic.
  
  Maybe too ,people who write or get passionate about expression of thought are a tad sensitive,myself included.
  
  It can indeed be frustrating and at times quite irritating not to have some kind of resolve, its tempting to up the ante to have ones point of view noticed.
  
  Sometimes the only answer is -No answer,because nobody knows.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Sure, there does seem to be cliques on almost any forum or writing site and HP is perhaps no exception. I do try to be "gentle" with the newbies, but some of them refuse to admit they don't already know everything before coming here.
  
  Those types usually write very little and usually don't remain here very long. I still say this is a writer's site in the main and a forum secondly. Sorry, but I do learn something by reading a writer's hubs. Often much more than by their passionate posts on the forums. Just my own experience here.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well you are definately one of the more respectful and open minded hubbers,and I am certainly not defending rude or bad behaviour by new or old alike
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The feeling is mutual, EK. But according to the troubled dude, it isn't possible to develop confidence in the opinions of others by conversing with them on these forums.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Excuse me? If I didn't know any better, I would think you have a reading comprehension problem there, Randy dude. I suggest you stop putting words in my mouth and drawing false conclusions. It's quite dishonest, you know.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I thought you weren't concerned with any forum poster's worth? Especially mine!
  
  The term "greenhorn writer" was not directed at you personally. Since you haven't written anything here, as far as I can tell, I have no idea of either how new to writing you are, or whether your implied experience has any merit.
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  earnestshubposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well I found a clue.
  
  "And, don't condescend me about making up my mind."
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  25 years of experience too, Earnest. I admit I am a "greenhorn" when it comes to being a writer. I always welcome others with more experience in the field giving me advice to ponder. Others may not feel the same, I suppose.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yep, happens all the time, Emile. Not only in the religious and political forums, but in others as well.
  
  It isn't unusual to read posts by newcomers asking how to make money writing here while they have already written hubs telling others "How To Make Money Writing on HubPages."
  
  It's possible this guy could do well here, if this is his real intention, but if he expects to gain any respect with his present attitude, I fear he'll be sorely disappointed.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  As if you know anything about respect. LOL!
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  As if you know anything at all.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  
  Bring it on, lightweight.
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  IntimatEvolutionposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I absolutely agree with you Randy. I learn so much about a hubber, just from reading their articles. I think that is an important process that sometimes get over looked here in the forums. People just don't take the time to learn about the hubbers participating in the forums or reading past posts that a hubber had posted before. I try to do this with the people I debate with here. I am big proponent for a publish hub
  requirement be enacted as a necessity, for all hubbers participating in the forums, to obtain first.
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Eaglekiwiposted 12 years ago
Well in answer to your original post

Yes God is a loving Father and if we love our kids we discipline them.
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Robert Pruittposted 12 years ago
and of course I can see only arguments...when we should be all Unity!
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  All I see is your shadow ,but welcome
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Eaglekiwiposted 12 years ago
Sorry to hear Cags

Hugs.
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you EK.
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earnestshubposted 12 years ago
Great logical ideas here. God "prunes" 3 month old babies to a horrible painful death for what good reason again?
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  On the emotional side that is sad,very sad.
  
  But if we think with our heads as well as our hearts then we might ask
  why dont we feel equally sad for the stubborness and hardheadedness of mankinds decisions,that reap Gods effects.
  
  Its Gods creation ,his purpose is for perfection (in the end)
  
  Mankinds goal is if it feels good ,or makes us rich ,or beautiful ,pursue these things.
  
  Wont always be good for us ,but what the hell,only live once -right?
  
  Wrong.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The worst part of it is, the religious think it makes sense and is somehow justified.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  They have been told this from a very young age, Emile. They cannot help themselves. Guilt trips, fear, threats, shame, all of these things are used to shape a child's thinking processes by the parents and church. It's a wonder any of us escaped being the same way.
  
  Be thankful.
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  earnestshubposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I know I'm thankful!
  Once you are in it, it sticks to the boots somethin awful.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Thats so untrue Randy
  
  I was told off love and forgiveness and about a man who walked among men.
  
  Still I cant say what others learned.
  
  Do abused parents indoctrinate their abused kids to abuse?
  
  Does an alcoholic mother indoctrinate their kid to drink?
  
  How does a kid from a good home become a murderer?
  
  There are so many stories of indoctrination, which I hardly think the right word anyway ,but its handy catch phrase that athiests like to use.
  Can't blame the churchy people have jargon too.
  
  I learned about Spirituality among tons of other things..Polynesian dancing ,General Knowledge,how to survive in the bush ,eat bugs ,cook for a large family.
  Raised step sons ,as well as my own.
  Helped many young people.
  
  Indoctrination is not the right word at all, or if it is ,it served me and my community well.
  (And everyone still has their dignity and freedom, for example...the hooker who needs food ,or a ride to the hospital...or the choir who needed billeting ,a choir made up entirely from parents who had died of aids!
  
  Gosh ,real love breeds good love NOT bad things.
  The world screwed me up and its me me me mentality. Or always looking to blame someone (usually God).
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  There's always "me" in everyone, EK. It's engrained in our basic instincts as a survival trait developed over millions of years. To deny it is ridiculous as I've never met anyone without this trait.
  
  This doesn't mean it has to run your life for you, but neither does it mean someone else is helping you curb the urge. But some feel they cannot control themselves alone, and others cannot do it even with help. Human beings.
  
  But you are wrong about religious indoctrination, EK. If you started teaching a child to drink as early as some are taught about a god and hammer in that it's the right thing to do, I doubt the child would grow up normally. Ever heard of Hitler Youth?
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That extreme does deserve the word 'indoctrination' but that word is bandied about to include all normal ,average ,peaceful ,loving families.
  
  Just over used in my opinion.
  
  Funnily enough in all my 30 odd years of parenting, I never once punished one of my kids and said ..this is what God would want? (or anything with Gods name in it)....
  
  I disciplined simply to make them be able survive later in adulthood.....and they are doin great -most of the time ,lol
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Good for you, EK. I assume they don't attend Sunday School either?
  
  I really don't intend to paint all believers with the same brush. Just those telling me I'm gonna spend eternity in hell because I don't believe as they do.
  
  I don't consider you one of those types, by the way.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks Randy ,I dont consider you to be one of those either ,hehe
  
  Well they went to church for some of their childhood ,to be honest it was a fun time for them ,and I know this because I was a Sunday school teacher.
  
  Small community church ,supportive ,caring and practical. A safe place for anyone who didnt want to go to a bar for company,non-judgemental for the immigrant who had no family, and truly a hangout for teens ,so they could play basketball and be safe (specially if they came from abusive type households)
  
  This environment was safe ,friendly and most of all introduced us to different lifestyles that they might not have experienced.
  
  I do think its really sad that many people today Christians and Non Christians have no idea ,no compassion and no desire to be tainted and keep their distance around less fortunate than themselves.
  
  Today my sons are much older ,they dont have kids of their own yet ,and their opinions and idea are as diverse as everyone on here.
  
  So yes I unfluenced them with a spiritual flavour, prayed with them ,talked about Jesus ,but the greatest thing I wanted to give them was an open mind.
  
  Trust me when I say -they do , in fact the 23 yr old is ready to rule the world -ha
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I am thankful, but considering the way they act out their religion there should be a law against them raising kids.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Jonestown is an excellent example of your thoughts.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Jonestown, Waco, Westboro Baptist, murdered abortion doctors; the list goes on and on. The scary thing is they'll never stop.
  
  When I read the Christian posts telling all of us how right they are, I always think about something John Teehen said "violence done in the name of religion is not a perversion of religious belief... but flows naturally from the moral logic inherent in many religious systems, particularly monotheistic religions..."
  
  It's a little sobering to know that they would be willing to do anything they decided in their minds was done in the name of their religion.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  There are many laws protecting children actually.
  
  Unfortunatley children being badly treated has little to do with religion and more to do with bad parenting period.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Watch the pentecostal videos where they are indoctrinating the children in how to speak in tongues and then say that. It's abuse of the worst kind imo.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Jesus Camp being a prime example of such videos.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I watched one bailey bear posted. Shocking footage. I couldn't believe it was allowed in America today. If anything other than an organization that laid claim to affiliation with christianity had done it they would have been arrested.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Why were they not?
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Christianity gets a free ride. Heck. Look at the Mormons. The government tiptoes around child rape, incestuous relationships and polygamy. Yes, there have been some high profile arrests; but for every arrest there are a hundred teenage girls being raised to believe that is right.
  
  Look at the Jehovah Witnesses. They have case after case where they refuse standard medical procedures for their system over some ignorant interpretation of the scriptures. Again, some coverage and some attempts to make them make intelligent decisions concerning the care of their children; but not every need is met.
  
  Many times a child would be removed from a secular home for the same decision.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I am not disagreeing with you ,but question the abuse that you see there?
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Small children are taught some pretty horific nursery rhymes too,about death and men chopping off heads..hmm..gave me nightmares.
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  earnestshubposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yep! We left those "and pecked off his nose" types of tales out, as I recall it upset me when they cooked my favourite singer, the blackbird!
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Oh and pigeons -oops did I say that
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  earnestshubposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "Four and twenty blackbirds, baked in a pie" ..... so what did the Australians call their favourite biggest selling meat pie?
  That's right folks, "Four and Twenty pies"
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  
  Now im hungry for a decent meat pie!
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  earnestshubposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I have never found one in another country that are like ours, I don't think they know what we put in em!
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Shhhh.. or all they'll want one.
  
  Can see I will have to make some
  
  Having serious withdrawals now-gee thanks Earnest.
  
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  earnestshubposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  My Australian American mate just about lives on the pepper steak ones.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Abuse is teaching children to fantasize tongues and ridiculous things any sane person knows is foolish. It's raising children to think backward ideas are somehow the will of a God. That people become possessed by spirits or demons. It's indoctrination of the worst kind. Raising them to be walking idiots.
  
  I have no problem with an intelligent and considered approach to the question of God. People believe and there will always be those who do that. But, children should be raised so that they can eventually make their own minds up. And know whatever they decide is right for them. And not be saddled with conflict brought on by trying to resolve reality with some insane take on religion.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I believe children need a balanced view ,so they can choose freely for themselves.
  
  For example only teaching them evolution, indoctrinates as well,just on another belief system.
  
  The extreme examples you presented are not the norm and one I have never agreed with.
  
  The USA excercise freedom of religion ,and I assume that also means freedom to form atheistic groups/clubs as well.
  
  There are hundreds of strange groups out there -strange to my thinking at least.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Agreed, except for the evolution part. Creationism belongs in the church not educational systems.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Creation belongs in Science alongside the option of Evolution.
  
  (Put all the 'sims' under one topic)
  
  This is offering children an objective view,so they decide and not the system indoctrinate them with ONLY scientific theories.
  
  By the way Emile ,are you just curious?
  
  Im just curious ,lol
  
  People disappear and reappear ,I cant keep up
  
  Psst Earnest ,maybe we need a namelift ,Im definately needing a makeover
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I would have to disagree. We have no evidence of creationism, other than what is written in religious texts. We have a separation of religion that we try to maintain in our schools and I support that effort.
  
  Not sure I understand the rest of your post. I have been accused of being too curious. But, that kind of goes along the lines of being chastised for being 'smart' when you were a kid. Like it was a bad thing. I never did get that.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I guess you decided for yourself or were influenced along the way ,no wait indoctrinated.
  
  But what I am saying is why not let children decide for themselves.
  
  Some school in NZ for example did introduce as part of their curriculum -Religions from other countries, to foster understanding (education) etc.
  
  Its so hypocrital in my opinion to have them chant the pledge of allegiance
  
  Under God etc ,then say -sorry kids we dont really believe that?
  
  You need to go to another building to hear the story behind that.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Being curious is a good thing.
  
  Forget I asked
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Merlin Fraserposted 12 years ago
When the Christian first arrived in Great Britain and started trying to convert the Pagans using their usual tactics of the Fear of eternal damnation in Hell for those that sinned against their God.

One of the Pagan Shaman asked, "If we sinned against this God before we you told us about him will we still go to this Hell of yours?"

The missionaries answered "No... Not if you did not know he existed !"

The Shaman then asked; "Then why did you tell us about him ?"
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  This is similar to what Mark Twain said after visiting Hawaii, Merlin.
  
  "I felt so sorry for those happy islanders because they lived their entire lives in such a beautiful paradise and never knew there was a hell." (paraphrased)
  
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yep we could still be collecting shrunken heads, eating one another
  
  I do agree actually that many missionaries were nasty horny men who raped the women and deceived the people ,in the name of the King... blah blah blah
  
  In a way no different to how and why World leaders decide war isnt it.
  
  For civil reasons -right
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  earnestshubposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Is that a bad thing? Should I sell my collection?
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yikes- lmao
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I don't think the Hawaiians shrunk heads, EK. But the missionaries-Gods chosen- decimated the beautiful islands with disease and destroyed most of the recorded history of the people there.
  
  In almost every case when explorers contacted new civilizations they were christians for the most part. And in almost every case they enslaved and killed a large portion of the population, either directly, or through enslavement and disease.
  
  I'm sure someone will find an excuse for these native's first introduction to the wonderful god who wished to be loved and worshiped.
  
  Sounds like a fine plan.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No ,some of my ancestors hail from Hawaiki-nui and my ancestors did live a disease free live thats for sure.
  
  Those UK missionaries did a lot of harm I agree.
  
  But you are confusing religion with christianity (IMO)
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No-you are confusing christianity with religion.
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  Andrew0208posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The reality of what Christianity stands for is far beyond the concepts of religion, but it is the life of Christ in a believer. It is a faith walk, neither is it just a religion, dogmas nor doctrines. Religion is not God, and God is not religion. It has indeed caused much harm to mankind than ever thought even in the days of Christ Jesus till date.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No. It is simply superstition such as ancient men used for their gods also. If there is one god, then there may be many. So far, none choose to show up anywhere. Shy, are they?
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  Andrew0208posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No. God is a Spirit. Doesn't operate nor be seen, understood by mere sensory perception. It's beyond being traditional, religious, and scientific. I think faith is not film.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Exactly what the Jonestown victims thought when they drank the poison Kool-Aid and gave their kids a cup full. Do you prefer grape, orange, or cherry flavor?
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  Andrew0208posted 12 years agoin reply to this
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  This has been coined a period of grace.
  In time I believe ALL truth will be revealed as God said it would.
  
  Reality for some is ,they dont believe him now ,perhaps they never will.
  
  I hope not.
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  earnestshubposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No religion= no god, no jesus.
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  Andrew0208posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  God is a Spirit. Religion is man made.
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  earnestshubposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  God does not exist without a belief in one, ie religion.
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  Andrew0208posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Not at all. If religion dies today(not discussed or practiced by religious folks). God existed before and after the concepts of religion.
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  earnestshubposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  yes hundreds of em! All started by some religion.
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  Andrew0208posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Both are never the same irrespective of how they're related to mortals.
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  earnestshubposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I don't understand what you are trying to get across Andrew, I may be a bit tired, could you explain please?
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  Andrew0208posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  In fact, I wonder how you'll actually understand it better when you don't believe in the existence of God. I'm also tired of trying to explain it better than what you've read. Nothing can be truer than the truth.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Can you be sure God wouldn't exist without man.
  
  Does anybody know what was ....before
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  earnestshubposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I know that man has had gods since he became fully sentient and the brain developed to be able to reason.
  
  Quite apart from the circular thinking required, eg. the bible is true, god said so in the book of god, so there must be a god.)
  
  The other strongly mitigating factor is that it is not refutable by scientific method, which is a definite no no in scientific discovery as it flavours the outcome with kool aid.
  
  Logic works for me, the illogical not so much.
  For example, changes in the levels of serotonin make one perceive differently, and as all is perception, religiosity changes with changes in brain chemistry, so one could say that what we believe is a chemical process and subject to change even through diet.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Very true.
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ibneahmadposted 12 years ago
Should we expect God to punish us when we disobey him?

We need some treatment or rehabilitation if we disobey the Creator God.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Some need it anyway.
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earnestshubposted 12 years ago
Back soon, off to buy a pie
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earnestshubposted 12 years ago
Thank goodness it is just a load of old washing then!
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earnestshubposted 12 years ago
or... we could ignore it and see it as a pile of old washing.
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A Troubled Manposted 12 years ago
Allow me to offer you another example, Randy.

Another member here, thebrucebeat, joined around 5 months ago, has 4 hubs and just over 600 posts, yet he is one of the only actual credible posters here. Few if any here can come close to meeting or exceeding his well thought and detailed responses.

As you can see, I am judging him based on what he says here and now, not how long he's been here or how many hubs he's written.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  And your point is what? Your criteria for judging others posts are better than others here?
  
  I've noticed no sparkling wit or spectacular genius indicated in any of your posts, so why should I take your word for anything more than it is? Here is where writing a hub could help you. You get to show us all how wonderfully insightful you are and how the rest of us cannot compare with your intellectual superiority. A no-lose situation for you.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No, my point was that you make it sound like gaining credibility is winning a popularity contest.
  
  That's what I was trying to explain. We agree.
  
  Come now, you really don't give yourself anywhere near enough credit, it would be a no-lose situation for you, too.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  A popularity contest is your take on my statement, I can't help your false assumptions. Your special abilities fail you once again.
  
  Not attempting to give myself any credit at all, TM. I'm trying to find someway to garner some for you.
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Cagsilposted 12 years ago
Let's see if this solves the problem. Apparently TM doesn't understand nor has he ever read a bible of any version.

Psalm 82:5-7

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

5 They do not know nor do they understand;
They walk about in darkness;
All the foundations of the earth are shaken.
6 [a]I said, “You are gods,
And all of you are sons of the Most High.
7 “Nevertheless you will die like men
And fall like any one of the princes.”
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  First of all, well done. You finally offered something that supported your claim, sort of. Here's an explanation of that passage and it doesn't look like Jesus is actually calling everyone gods, especially to the extreme that would warrant one to be so confused in believing that the OP was referring to this particular quote.
  
  Psalm 82 is directed at some Jewish leaders who were being partial in their treatment of others. They were showing partiality to the wicked, and not helping the weak, fatherless, afflicted, and the poor. They were abusive, self-serving leaders.
  
  Therefore, God challenged them to help those in need, but they did not care. God knew that they would not change even before He warned them; therefore, He rebuked them saying they were like gods. They acted like gods, but they are going to die just like mortal men. There was nothing special about them.
  
  Psalm 82 is a rebuke and it reveals the fact that when we ignore God's wishes, we are acting like little gods.
  
  http://www.neverthirsty.org/pp/corner/read2/r00629.html
  
  It is interesting that you say it is me who doesn't understand the bible, yet you take the meaning of that quote totally out of context and use it as an excuse to ask the question, "What God?" to the author of the OP.
  
  You knew right from the start the OP was referring to Jesus, the Christian god, yet you tossed out that two worded question despite that fact.
  
  And, you're honestly trying to tell me your intent wasn't to bait and troll?
  
  You expect me to buy that?
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  My statement originally is "what god?"
  
  If you don't like the explanation of the scripture that says all are gods, which was the reasoning behind me asking "what god?", then reconcile it for yourself.
  
  When Jesus actually stated it and then one person claims one true god, it makes no sense and begs one to ask what god are they actually talking about.
  
  Again, my statement wasn't addressed to you, but was to the OP. So, now I am done with you. That's all the explaining I need to do.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, your original statement was a two word question, "What god?"
  
  That question gets negated as valid due to the fact you have tens of thousands of posts, many of them in religious threads just like this, where the OP makes some loose or direct reference to their beliefs or their god and you don't ask that question at all.
  
  If you are using the reasoning to ask that question based on that particular quote, why are you not entering every single thread with that same question?
  
  If you look closely at the OP, you'll see that he never claimed Jesus was the one true god, so once again, your reason to use that quote falls short of the mark.
  
  Yes, your question was not to me and was directed at the OP. Look back through your many thousands of posts Cagsil and you will also see yourself posting responses to other peoples discussions they're having with an OP. What point are you trying to make here?
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  Andrew0208posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  @Cagsil, the relevance is quite interesting to ask you if God existed in your Bible quotation?
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lamarkyoung4posted 12 years ago
This to all who have chosen to voice their beliefs on my FORUM! stop assuming what I might or might not know. This is fact if you encounter someone who is counter productive to you then why engage them. When you become strong in your resolve then what small minded people seem to think roll off of your back. It is best to leave them behind you but still pray that they come to a better understanding.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I believe it's fairly obvious that you would consider others who don't share your beliefs to be small minded and to just leave them behind, as you say. I think it's safe to safe we can assume those beliefs are correct.
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  lamarkyoung4posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Obvious you like take people words out of context, what I was implying is this when some post something, either you gone to answer what is ask or not, but instead you guys chose to lash out if someone offended you. From the start you guys started offering opinon that was not even asked. I never asked was there a God so for someone to ask what God ? That statement alone told me where he was headed. NO ONE and I DO MEAN NO ONE has the right just to be outright disrespectful without having any provocation with the OP. If you are anyone else beleive that there is no God or many Gods thats on you. I will never debate any of you on the God or Religon that's why I live in Amercia so I may have that freedom of choice.
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  Woman Of Courageposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Hi lamarkyoung, Very well stated.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It really does amaze me that where I came from I also had freedom of religion,(believe it or not there are other countries with freedom of religion) but it seem to be much more hostile to be able to discuss it here in the U.S.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Does that give you the right to be disrespectful and call others small minded?
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Sherlock221bposted 12 years ago
Personally, I no longer believe in God. However, when I did, it appears I had a totally wrong idea of what God is. It was the Christian version of God I believed in, who I believed to be a God of love, rather like a heavenly father who cared for his children. However, I have been "put right" by Christians on here, who inform me that God is a god of anger and hatred, who is in the business of punishing people. So, if it is the Christian God you believe in, then yes, you should expect Him to punish you.
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  lamarkyoung4posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  See I like you already atleast you did answer the question that is all I asked all these other people started a personal attacks among themseleves without ever answering the question.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I answered you too.
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  lamarkyoung4posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes you did I am sorry for the oversight. Thank you very much for your strong hold. I may not post everytime one of them post but I do read them. I am glad that you stand tall for your convictions.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You are welcome.
  It does get a little bumpy in the forums sometimes ,so many people and so little time.
  
  To Your Best Life~
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earnestshubposted 12 years ago
Does god wiping out all of mankind bar 8 count as discipline?

If my son disobeys should I kill him?
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  SirDentposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  If your son leaves home and ends up dead what can you do?
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  earnestshubposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Mourn.
  
  Both my sons left home years ago, and I hope they remain safe and sensible.
  But I don't think killing them for leaving home is a good idea.
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  SirDentposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  
  I hope they remain safe also. God says, "The wages of sin is death." Do not touch those things that will kill you. God doesn't kill, death is the payment for sin. God only warns us not to do those things.
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  earnestshubposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well that comes a little late for me! I am a risk taker, always was and will remain so, and I have touched a lot of things in my life, many of which someone's god is sure to dissaprove of.
  
  those who lose an infant at birth would not appreciate you god's sentiments Sir Dent.
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  SirDentposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  
  Losing an infant at birth is hard. Just as hard as losing as older child I am sure. It still all boils down to sin. Death enetered into the world of man when Adam ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
  
  As I stated before, "The wages of sin is death." What many people mis sit hat there is a way out. Jesus is His name and saving the lost is His game.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Just wondering Dent, did you inherit your religion or were you exposed to others?
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Scuse me for jumping in for a second.
  Randy I inherited the world when I was born -born into it.
  
  So,although I know you think Christians were indoctrinated ,its really the other way around
  
  Every day we are encouraged by Gods word to get rid of the 'old man' (old habits, etc).
  
  Back to you Sir Dent.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "So,although I know you think Christians were indoctrinated ,its really the other way around"
  
  The other way around. EK? This would seem to mean the "the indoctrinated were Christians." I agree with you on this one.
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  SirDentposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I was raised to be a heathen. I was 36 years old when I gave my life to Jesus. My mom and dad were not christians when I was a boy.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So none of your ancestors were christians? So how many different religious cults did you try out before discovering the "one true god"? Muslim, Hindu, Hebrew, etc.?
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  SirDentposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  
  My grandmother on my mother's side was a Christian. As far as I know, she was the only one. I never knew my grandmother or grandfather on my dad's side. Both died when my dad was a young boy.
  
  I tried to live my life as best I knew how. I thought all beliefs were bascially the same. One day I heard the voice of the Lord. Muhammad didn't speak to me, Vishnu didn't speak to me, Buddha didn't speak to me, but Jesus did.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You didn't address my second question very succinctly, Dent. How many cults gods did you give the opportunity to possess your soul? Did you ask Allah to receive your soul? Or any other god people claim is the only true god, for that matter? I doubt it seriously.
  
  I hope you chose the right one. Otherwise you are urging others to believe in the wrong deity and take full responsibility for leading them along the wrong path.
  
  What makes you qualified to think you know better than anyone else when choosing a particular deity
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  SirDentposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  
  LOL, I thought I addressed it. I told you how I lived my life before Jesus.
  
  Choosing Him is not the thing. I did not choose Him, He chose me.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "How many cult's gods did you give the opportunity to possess your soul?"
  
  Nope, try again. A nice round number will be fine. How many other gods did you ask to save your soul?
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  SirDentposted 12 years agoin reply to this
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  lamarkyoung4posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Why must every word that you post seems to offend someone? Can you not write just one post that expresses your ture feelings about something without disrespecting someone else, or is that little to much for you.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It seems to be a fact that everyone offends someone every time they post on this forum.
  
  Your post being a case in point. Mine too, I bet.
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ibneahmadposted 12 years ago
Should we expect God to punish us when we disobey him?

When we disobey Him we go astray from the path of purpose of life; we need rehabilitation to be set again on the path of purpose of life; one may see it as punishment or treatment of the wrong doing.
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  lamarkyoung4posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you for your insight! I stand 100% behind what you written in plain english that even a infant could understand. @Randy I was not brought up in the Church. My mom nor my father were not apart of any church nor regularly study the bible.I myself have been to a host of religions even tried your path, so for your own sake stop assuming all christians start at the same point., WE DON'T! Just like the people who beleive the way you do I am pretty sure you all did not get the way you are at the same starting point.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Who said I assumed "all christians started at the same point"?
  
  When you say you've "been to a host of religions," how many is in a "host" and what were they?
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Maybe if you set your own purpose of life and not leave it up to something/someone else, then you wouldn't stray from it.
  
  Just a thought.
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estherluzfrancoposted 12 years ago
nope.. we don't have to. if ever you read the bible.. try to read between the lines and do not understood it literary. The Bible speaks about God's word. in the old testament, God have really punished the sinners. this would include the story about Sodom and Gomorrah. Do not just cling on 1 verse only. If you want to know the truth about it. Read the whole Bible.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  If we need not take the bible literally, then we need not take Gods word literally. Is that correct?
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  estherluzfrancoposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Read between the lines in the Bible. It does make a difference when reading with deeper understanding than just reading with common sense.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  What does that mean?
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estherluzfrancoposted 12 years ago
But then God was not really happy about His punishment given to His sons and daughters. If you also read about the story of Noah. You will know that God gave a promise to never bring forth flood against His people again. The rainbow in the story symbolizes His promise.
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mdiggs1234posted 12 years ago
My opinion on this is, God is about love and forgiving us and has. we have to believe that and let things go...human nature makes u continue to feel guilt and shame for past sins. We expect to be punished, but we are not. God in love will forgive, if we go to him and ask with a humble heart.
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mdiggs1234posted 12 years ago
My opinion on this is, God is about love and forgiving us and has. we have to believe that and let things go...human nature makes u continue to feel guilt and shame for past sins. We expect to be punished, but we are not. God in love will forgive, if we go to him and ask with a humble heart.
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lamarkyoung4posted 12 years ago
You are correct and please except my apology because that was not my intentions. I started this forum hoping to meet new like minded people yet instead it seems I encountered the for the most part totally the opposite. But I do wish all of you well with whatever you guys chose to believe in. In the end it is your lives we are talk about right.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Please don't apologize. (if you were speaking to me)
  
  There are a thousand different people with a thousand different beliefs. I doubt you'll find a quiet conversation with like minded people, but I'm sure you'll still enjoy the forums. Not everyone argues, all of the time.
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  lamarkyoung4posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The apology was general, I will see if not it is still ok.
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SirDentposted 12 years ago
My computer crashed and I cannot get it to boot up. Sounds like the hard drive because it is making a noise. Using my wife's computer right now to post this. I may be off-line for a while.

I hate this computer.
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5fingersposted 12 years ago
yes of course.
There are always consquences for every action we take ,either a reward or a punishment.
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estherluzfrancoposted 12 years ago
(A Troubled Man) you really are a troubled man. all that had happened about God's ways of punishing were done in the old testament. those things were also done before the ten commandments were made. In the new testament, God preserves life. He saved a woman who was a very sinful person caught by lots of her neighbors committing adultery. He save that woman from being stoned to death and forgave her for all her sins. She was not given any punishments, instead, she was held by His hands and took her away from the darkness that she is living in.

Do not just based God on what had happened in the old testament. there is also the New testament which has more information on what God is.

As for the question:
Should we expect God to punish us when we disobey him?

answer: No. He will not punish us. He had given us free will to decide on what are the things that we would want to choose, either to believe in Him or not, do good or evil. But if you are a true believer, you would know that God does not punish His people for He loves all of us. That is why Jesus died on the cross to wash away all the sins of the earth. It is in our prerogative if we ask for forgiveness and promise not to do those sinful ways again.
Our decisions were all made from our thoughts and in our hearts.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Gee, thanks for the compliment. How nice of you to say. I'll be sure to give your post the attention it deserves.
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Jeramiposted 12 years ago
SirDent wrote:

She was warned not to look back and she knew that something bad would happen if she did. (I already went over this in a previous comment to you)

Tell a child to not put a screwdriver in an outlet because it will hurt them. If they do it anyway and they get hurt, who is at fault?
=====================
A Troubled Man wrote
If I use your the same logic from the above example of Lot's wife being warned and losing her life towards your second example, I would have to kill my child for putting the screwdriver into the outlet. Is that correct?

=====

SirDent wrote:
I imagine if one of your children was to pass before you, you would keep it's body with you at all times?

=======

A Troubled Man wrote
No, but I also wouldn't kill my child as a form of punishment.

======

Jeramy (ME)

A better comparison might be ... If I owned a delapidated old house that crack heads were using to sell drugs and committ raoes and murders ... and I was going to burn it down? ...
And I told everyone to stay away at a certain time...

And someone I loved went into it after I had lit the match.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Funny you should mention that, it seems like every six months or so I have to burn down yet another dilapidated hold house where crack heads were committing murders. Must be a trend.
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  Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes I know, I'm running short on matches.
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Jeramiposted 12 years ago
Do God haters think that God should have made us indestructible?
I think that we are; in the spiritual realm.
I also think that we have chosen to be here in this physical realm.

If we were indestructible; there would be no challenge in climbing mountains, bull fighting, driving our cars faster than we know we should, etc. etc.

If we were indestructible; there would be no challenges in lie.
And then what?
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lsin82posted 12 years ago
When I was a child and I did something wrong that I knew I had no business doing, I expected to get disciplined. I didn't understand it at the time, but now that I am older and have a child of my own, I realize that discipline is just a form of love so that we may understand the importance of making correct choices and doing what is right. This is the same concept that God our Father holds true with us. When He sees us going astray, headed in a direction we should not go,out of His love for us He disciplines us to bring us back on track. Yes I expect to be disciplined when I fail to uphold the standards God has set in His Word. However, because God loves us He also pours out His grace upon us and sometimes when I deserve to be disciplined, He instead shows mercy. How awesome is that.
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  DoubleScorpionposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Discipline and capital punishment are not the same. Which I think is the majority of the arguement being presented. Is death a proper punishment for instruction?
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  lamarkyoung4posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  @lsin82 Thank you very much you have answered in a manner that really brings it home. I love the way you have put it all in order. very well stated. God truly flowed through you in this post.@DoubleScorpion Remeber it was capital punishment of Jesus Christ himself that gives you and I the chance to come to the father.
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Sherlock221bposted 12 years ago
I think some people have a innate ability to punish themselves, and are so filled with guilt and shame at times, that they almost look for a higher authority to punish them, in an attempt to feel better about themselves. This mental torture should be recognised for what it is, and that it stems not from the divine, but from the human. Living your life, with the intention not to harm anyone else mentally or physically is the best anyone can do. The Old Testament is filled with laws which would seem absurd to most people today, except for orthodox Jews. Who would for example not pick up a stick on a Sunday, or how many menstruating women will remove themselves from their family and community, until they are "clean." Yet people tortured themselves with fears of what would happen if they didn't obey these laws. This human mind's need to turture itself should not be seen as a punishment from God, but as the faulty thinking it really is.
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amberfortsonposted 12 years ago
He suffered not only to learn but to show the world what he was willing to do himself to save their immortal souls. Jesus is and always was perfect.
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amberfortsonposted 12 years ago
To answer your initial question, yes I do believe that we should "expect" to be punished when we do wrong in the eyes of God. I guess this would be what some people would like to call karma LOL! The Ten Comandments are very basic guidelines for what we are expected/advised to follow throughout life, they are certainly not the ONLY "rules". To take one situation out of the Bible and blow it up seems ludacris. God also did many great things with his time on earth. "A Troubled Man" you make it seems as if He was here on some sort of terrorist killing raid. This has to be the silliest comments on a subject so simple that I have ever heard.
The question was "do you think we should expect to be punished by God when we disobey him" Not what would happen if we look over our shoulder or our children put a screwdriver in a light socket. Although you may not need worry about looking over your shoulder you may need to enjoy the cool winter months and air conditioning (I hope you have) while you can.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  God wiped out the population of the entire planet in a flood, is there a mass murderer throughout all of history that can boast the same claim? What God did was far worse than just a terrorist killing raid.
  
  What about the other gods? If you do wrong in their eyes, do you not expect to be punished?
  
  Yes, some silly comments there.
  
  ???
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Troubled:
  
  You have judged God according to mans standards.
  
  Rightly or wrongly ,it dont work that way around
  
  Who can know the mind of God?
  
  I dont,but I trust it.
  
  I dont trust man.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You claim to know the mind of God along with every other believer here.
  
  That's just a cop out.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Knowing his word is one thing ,it also says in His word ,'Who can know the mind of God".
  
  So ,no its not a cop out. You are incorrect.
  
  Hope that explains it for you.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It's a cop out, despite what you quote. I can quote lots of things from the Bible that you nor anyone else would do or even consider to do. Thanks for the explanation.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You would be very hard pushed anywhere on this forum to find where I say I know the mind of God.
  
  I suggest what you have done is assume because I may answer based on my personal experience and sometimes use scripture ,that I KNOW the MIND of God.
  
  I dont.
  
  So I repeat its not a cop out at all.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Repeating doesn't change anything. Besides, when I look back now, I don't see anywhere in which I was claiming to know Gods mind.
  
  Where do you see that?
  
  I can judge anyone or any God for wiping out the earths population as being nothing more than mass murder. It is what it is. Who cares what God was thinking at the time?
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Huh?
  No you said I claim to know Gods mind etc?
  
  Nevermind.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  What? You said I was judging Gods mind???
  
  Obfuscation?
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I was responding to an earlier post/comment you made to me.
  We seem to be a little confused,either scroll back or post afresh
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I'm afraid ATM is correct. You can't have it both ways. When you quote scripture to support your opinions you are, in essence, claiming to know the mind of God. You are not unaware that others who claim belief in Christianity disagree. And yet, you stand firmly behind your interpretation of the words that you determine are the will of God. So you are claiming to know the mind of God.
  
  As does any christian that quotes scripture to back up a point when there isn't universal agreement.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No I am quoting scripture,period.
  
  God said this, etc.
  
  If I were quoting I knew the mind of God and this is exactly what he thinks ,then there would be no other interpretations ,now would there?
  
  And we certainly know thats not true.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  If scripture (Gods word) isn't what's in Gods mind, what is it then?
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I dont like copy n paste too much ,but this explains it well:
  
  Isaiah 40:13. The interrogative form is a strong mode of denying that anyone has ever known the mind of the Lord. The argument of Paul is this, "No one can understand God. No one can fully comprehend his plans, his feelings, his views, his designs. No one by nature, under the influence of sense and passion, is either disposed to investigate his truths, or loves them when they are revealed. But the Christian is influenced by God. He has his Spirit.
  
  He has the mind of Christ; who had the mind of God. He sympathizes with Christ; he has his feelings, desires, purposes, and plans. And as no one can fully understand God by nature, so neither can he understand him who is influenced by God, and is like him; and it is not to be wondered at that he regards the Christian religion as folly, and the Christian as a fool.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You have got to be kidding. So now, not only do you know the mind of God, you have it? I guess that's end of story.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Im sitting here frowning ,no idea how you got that opinion from all of that -but sadly you did.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  OK, I got that from this part of it:
  
  He has the mind of Christ; who had the mind of God. He sympathizes with Christ; he has his feelings, desires, purposes, and plans. And as no one can fully understand God by nature, so neither can he understand him who is influenced by God, and is like him;
  
  I mean, come one. What exactly else did you get from it?
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Christ was a certain way, he thought along certain lines. We are told to go and sin no more. We are told to love our enemies, we are told lots of things that reflect the values of God through jesus Christ. This is having the mind of christ, it means that we are mindFULL or our minds are full of the reflections of Christ. We think like him.
  Whereas before we had minds that were mindful of only ourselves.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Paul is but one mans opinion.
  
  Again, if Gods word is not his mind, what it is then?
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Gods mind is beyond comprehension.
  
  Bascially Paul was saying , we are mere mortals,whatcould we possible teach God (that he doesnt already know)
  
  We as a people seem to have alot of trouble understanding/accepting a part of His plan as it is i.e Commandments,His existence even.
  
  Trouble
  Its a belief thing. Maybe if you asked the Holy Spirit, he would show you in a way you would understand.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Morals and ethics, for one. Peace for another. Punishment without killing would be another.
  
  Hmmm... come to think of it, there is a great deal we can teach God.
  
  Another cop out. Thanks.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Trouble you probably have more in common with Paul than you think (except he was named Saul then)
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You and I both know that you and other christians have no problem pointing out those who won't make it to heaven; while other christians disagree. You and others quote scripture to show why you say the things you do.
  
  This is an example of attempting to speak for God, as if you know his mind when there is not universal agreement.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  If the questions posed is What does God say about...etc etc..
  
  I respond with what I see as the answer.
  
  I mean surely He is the main subject of the topic ,right?.
  
  God, Jesus Christ ,Bible.
  
  Seriously if were discussing chocolate chip cookies in the food forum ,sooner or later someone might share a recipe...
  
  Logic.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  What you see as the answer is one thing. But rarely does a christian set their ego aside and admit that. If any would simply admit it's their opinion and/or their belief that would make sense. But it's always as if they believe their opinion is the will of a god.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well Emile ,I look at it this way:
  
  I can sit on the fence and watch the play ,ie, who said this ,who made a mistake, who made the best speech ,who looks like they are losing/winning ,but sooner or later God will ask me,
  
  'What about you, what team are you on'? and so I take a stand for what I believe.
  
  I dont like trying to be clever ,or mean,though sometimes Im guilty of being abrupt.Sometimes Im wrong ,sometimes Im right,but ya know what
  
  I really do like people alot, I dont care what they do, (well sometimes) but I am human with bumps,warts,and scratches,we all arrived in this world pretty much the same way ,and do our best to make sense of everyday life.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I do see that EK. I've told you before I think your heart's in the right place. But I don't perceive those who follow their hearts over what they can find in scriptures as sitting on the fence. They are the ones who follow the fruits of the spirit. Not saying you don't, but what's the old saying? All you need is Love?
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I agree with your last sentence ,but its also true that the non-believer presumes to know Christians are wrong (based on how they perceive the scriptures).
  
  I dont see you challenging them on that.
  
  Whats good for the goose..
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Actually, I did challenge someone of the Jewish faith on their interpretation. I haven't noticed atheists quoting scripture and saying some people aren't worthy. I'll keep my eyes open.
  
  I respect the ancient wisdoms. I may not agree on the bottom line with you, but there are a lot of lessons to be learned in them. However, the lessons I see are for me, and me alone. They aren't judgments of me or others, but lessons in personal accountability, doing right by others searching within on how to try to follow the things I hold as truths.
  
  I simply think we, as a species, are as varied as the universe. The differences are good and natural. They are meant to be. The only evil would be thinking we were all round pegs.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Heaven forbid we were all round pegs however ,once again it is God who decides who,what and how he will run His house (IMO).
  
  I mean it will be His Kingdom,His Glory. If Heaven (and Earth come to that) ,is raining caramel popcorn and we all grow extra head spouting laser beams,so be it, what can any of us change about that.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Another cop out.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No ,an atheist probably wont quote scripture ,well occassionally they do to mock ,but they do never the less quote their own jargon and poppycock lol
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That's true. There are some that appear to have their own set of secret atheist scriptures. Definitely stuck in the mud of fundamental atheism.
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  DoubleScorpionposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  
  EK. I, for one, only think the "Christian" (or any believer) is wrong, when their beliefs are passed as facts.
  
  I have been formally educated on the bible (and other sacred texts) and I can say from things that I have seen on HP, that many do not understand (based on modern education) what they are reading in the bible. The majority interpret the bible to match their personal beliefs, instead of properly educating themselves to understand the bible and building their beliefs from that understanding.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  D.S I admire your passion for the study and research that you have obviously spent in study as you described.
  
  Head knowledge is a worthy attribute to have indeed for understanding and correction.
  
  Perhaps though ,the hardest thing to give God then is our hearts,for that requires a change of will, your will be done Lord ,not mine.
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  DoubleScorpionposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Giving your Heart to God is the easy part. Using the bible to assist in guiding our lives is where we run into troubles. Due to the fact that many do not understand it.
  
  Also of note: If it is God's will being done and not ours...Then how do we claim to possess freewill?
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I dont always find it easy- but I live less on 'feelings' now than perhaps I used too. For instance I know that feelings change ,sometimes in minutes but facts never do.
  
  Free will to accept Gods gift of salvation or not.
  We are not robots .
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  DoubleScorpionposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  If one accepts God's gift of salvation...Do they still maintain freedom of actions or are they required to follow the will of God only? And if the only way to have and maintain God's gift of salvation is by living by God's will only, then you give up freewill of self for God's will.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Accepting Gods Salvation includes the in dwelling of the Holy Spirit, or the we become more aware of Him and our conscience is affected by behaviour and attitudes that we were ignorant of before- Faith grows, as knowledge and obdeience increases.
  
  We can have alot of head knowledge ,but no conviction etc.
  
  Yes with obedience to Gods commands (the ones that say ..the greatest these is Love ) we live less like our old natures, and more like the fruit of the Spirit.
  
  The scripture that says ,Luke 8:14 – fruit being brought to perfection (full grown; ... We are constantly being transformed
  
  So yep we are always free to choose this way or that way
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  DoubleScorpionposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So we have the choice to either, A. Give up ourselves to Gods will for eternal salvation (no more freewill of self) or B. Live our lives by our own choosing (freewill of self).
  
  One cannot life by God's will and still maintain freewill...It is just not possible. You are either living by God's will or by Freewill...there is only the choice...
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Ok ,but everyday I choose...
  God doesnt force His will on me.
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  DoubleScorpionposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Nicely said...
  
  You are free to choose God's will for your life. He does not force that upon anyone (although some believers attempt to do it for him). But you do give up freewill of self to follow God's will.
  An acceptable sacrifice for those of faith.
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  Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I guess Im coming in too late to understand.
  
  can you tell me exactly which points Eaglekiwi was making that you disagree with so much?
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You're right on time jerami. It isn't that I disagree with her, it's on whose authority we claim to be speaking. When you say God said, to back something up like who isn't worthy of the christian heaven, or anything else; you are saying you know the mind of God.
  
  You can't say God said and mean anything other than ypu think you know his mind as long as there is disagreement within Christianity as to the point.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Christian Heaven?
  
  Ok ,ya got me there.
  
  I only know of one heaven and hell.
  
  Enlighten me ,if you will.
  
  I dont wish to argue it with you ,just curious why you called a Christian heaven.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It's a Christian belief that only they get into their version of heaven, isn't it?
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  an angel is giving the tour of heaven and as they are walking around taking in the sights a black line on the horizon gets bigger and as they approach eventually everyone can see that it is a wall, so one person says, hey why is that wall there? the angel responds, shhhh thats where the catholics are and they think they are the only ones up here.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
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  DoubleScorpionposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Not to pick...But...if one doesn't or cannot know the mind of God, how can they understand the meaning of the bible, given that it's understanding comes from God? How can they begin to understand God's will for their life?
  
  Just thinking outloud...
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  lol
  Thinking is a good thing
  
  We can know Gods word ( at least to the best of our knowledge) but Gods mind-no, not exactly.
  
  We know his will through most of the scriptures,and through the witness of the Holy Spirit.
  
  For example ,I dont know why God has made some of the decisions he did,and will in the future...akin to Moses not being able to look upon the glory of God ,I accept that I cant know His mind.
  
  P.S Pick away, I know its not personal- lol
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Rah128posted 12 years ago
Should we expect God to punish us when we disobey him?..

Really!! why is it with god its allways about putting fear in people who dont belive its almost like school kids bully tactics.
Its diasspointing to think that fully grown people actuly can belive that there going to get punished by a imaginary higher being.
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A.S.K.Preacherposted 12 years ago
No pain, no gain. Interesting that our society puts so much stock into sports concerning this saying - but grossly ignore the spirit that lives now. When Jesus sends those away from Him he says, "Go, you who PRACTICE iniquity."
All believers PRACTICE righteousness. That sometimes is not so easy to do. Christians make mistakes too. Praise be to Jesus our Lord and Savior for forgiveness and cleansing.
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  Woman Of Courageposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Amen. Amen.
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Jeramiposted 12 years ago
Emile R wrote
You're right on time jerami. It isn't that I disagree with her, it's on whose authority we claim to be speaking. When you say God said, to back something up like who isn't worthy of the christian heaven, or anything else; you are saying you know the mind of God.

=== --- === - ??

I'll begin with .. I agree with everyone a little and disagree a little more.

I agree that we do not have authority to say who gets in and who doesn't. unless we are talking about OUR bed.

Sometimes I wonder if I have any "REAL" authority/(power) over anything.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  lol at your humour Jerami,
  
  W sure do have a choice,buts its not easy either ,if you dont know ALL of the choices.And then whose to say if the choices are right -for us.
  
  I dont have any authority on who gets into Heaven or not,my job is to make sure I do and at least love people irregardless.
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  Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I never thought that you did feel that way.
  
  About who gets in and who gets out that is.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Oh its ok ,I didnt think that you did
  Was just sayin...
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  Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  And I never thought that you thought that I did so it's even better than ok OK
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  ok
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You don't think you have power over anything? I feel the same way. But, I think that's the beginning of wisdom. I hope, anyway.
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  Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Don't know about wisdom .... I KNOW it is one of the signs of getting OLD
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Then I must be very wise.. ...not
  
  Used to be that way ,least my grandparents were wise ,but then many politicans are old and they are not wise.
  
  Just dont know about that anymore.
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  Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well I'm Old, I may be wise ???? I don't know ?
  If I am, I cain't remember what it was, or where I put it.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You got the 'forgetty's' Jerami?
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  Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Don't know for sure i I got both hands on them but I think I feel them coming on .
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yep yer old
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Jeramiposted 12 years ago
What were yowl talking about a while ago ????

OH YEA God munishing us.
I don't think God ever punished me for anything I did wrong.

He mustave thought I was doing a good enough job of punishing my self. All my bad deeds came with their own retribition.
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  earnestshubposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  and that other sometimes reality.....no good deed goes unpunished.
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  Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Unfortunatly that seems to be a common ocuring lesson.
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Jeramiposted 12 years ago
I was just now thinking; If god gives out blessings to his followers for doing his will... I wonder if the Devil blesses his followers for the same reason.

And If God punishes bad deeds that his follows commit, the Devil probably punishes his followers when they do not do his will.

Soooo with all that blessings and punishing going on from both camps ??? It can be hard to tell who is doing what.

Sometimes the bad guy in the western movie, does wear a white hat.
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brotheryochananposted 12 years ago
What i believe God does do is, he puts his rebellious or unlearning children in a wilderness (recall the book of exodus) experience to teach them what they need to learn.

Each christian goes through a process of sanctification, along that journey everyone encounters stumbling blocks that are difficult to overcome. I like to use the example of smoking because not everyone is in an adulterous relationship nor are many kleptomaniacs, etc... smoking hits home with most people.
Now God has said that He wants you to quit smoking and you do so for a while and then pick it up again and quit for another day, buy a pack on tuesday and another on sunday.. and so the trend goes on and on, eventually, God needs to do something to exert the importance of this no smoking policy and off to the wilderness you go, where, for example, the bible is not opening up like it used to, or you can't seem to hear Gods words, the sky seems hardened over your head, allegorically or you just 'feel' unspiritual... this kind of chastening is a tool of God and often frustration occurs. I call it the wilderness experience. Oh lord why am i feeling separated. This may be termed as punishment i suppose, but i like the bible word, chastening.
But punish, in the literal term of punishment, if so, then the punishment must suit the crime; the crime must have been very severe like preaching an invisible sky fairy as a thing that doesn't exist.
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