OWS's 'Valley Forge' moment
Is anyone else offended by people making reference to Valley Forge in this way?
Valley Forge was a brutal winter encampment. 12,000 men, 8,000 of which who didn't have shoes. Many had very little in the way of clothes. Rations were short, sometimes only flour and water. 2,500 men died that winter.
It's unfathomable to me...Tell me about it after you have spent a winter of owing in New York City.
I'm not exactly sure what you mean, but I understand the cold pretty well. I've been in some tough spots, but luckily I have training.
Seeing kids huddled up in their tents with parkas talking about Valley Forge just shows a level of disrespect that I can't believe.
Maybe but they are putting their bodies where there mouths are.
No. I respect them for staying out there where it's cold. Calling it a Valley Forge moment though...
If they want to put their bodies where their mouths are to call it that, they would have to drop the coats and shoes, only eat a small amount of bread every day(with occasional niceties like jerky), and still work chopping down trees and hauling logs(again, barefoot) to make temporary shelters.
It's a long distance between Valley Forge and what these people are doing. It would be nice if our citizens understood and appreciated our history a little better.
- Emile Rposted 12 years ago
0I think you have missed the point. Whether or not they sit shoeless in the bitter cold doesn't matter. The fact is that they could easily get out of the elements; but instead they stand firm in their resolve. It mirrors the unshakable and defiant spirit at Valley Forge.
I just don't see how anyone can draw that similarity. One is a group of people protesting something they believe in, in the cold, with parkas and tents and nice food and the safety of public facilities nearby. I understand they are doing something, but to compare that to Valley Forge...
Maybe I'm alone in my thinking, but it disrespects the struggles our founders went through to make this nation.And the homeless who live in this nation.
Look at it from another angle. It honors our founders because the nation born of their struggle has come so far that those who struggle to restore the freedoms we have lost can do it without weapons fired and with food in their belly. Because of our prosperity, that could never have been attained without that sacrifice, those who sacrifice now aren't forced to risk their lives in the cold; because they can afford the clothing necessary to survive it.
It's a different world. But the soldiers at Valley Forge left their jobs and their families to fight for what they believed in. As these people at OWS have. The soldiers were starving and cold because they weren't getting the support they needed. They lived off of the provisions sent to them. OWS has more monetary support, so they are surviving a little more easily.If that's the way they want to be viewed, then they should say things like 'This is our way of honoring the founders' sacrifices', or something like that that actually shows respect for it. Calling this their Valley Forge moment is comparing the two, and they just can't be compared. Those soldiers gave life and limb to fighting for their cause. I'm fine if they want to try and honor that, but not if they try and compare themselves to it.
Tell you what. Run on up there and walk a mile in their shoes. Then let us know what you think.
What, walk a mile in the shoes of the OWS people? Please.
I once did a survival challenge in the Rockies in February. 1 week, pants, shoes, shirt, sweater, pocketknife, at 10,000 ft. I slept in a snow cave, I had to make a fire for warmth, and I lived off fish I caught in an icy stream with my hands.
What they are going through isn't that bad, and it definitely isn't Valley Forge.That's you, isn't it? Love affair with a corporate abuser?
Actually, there was, but I didn't take my wallet with me...
I love when I'm somewhere that doesn't have a starbucks within 50 miles.
Oh yeh? Well, I walked five miles to school. Up hill both ways.. Naked in the snow. My fantasy beats your fantasy. Don't you think?
You know, if you just discredit things that strangers say, you'll end up looking a fool quite often. If you don't believe something, maybe some clarifying questions can help you discern the truth?
We all look the fool, from time to time. I'd need some proof to believe your claim. Any guy that tells me he fights for the privilege of changing a poopy diaper isn't the type that survived survival training.
Why is being a loving parent mutually exclusive with being able to survive in the wild?
It isn't. But, certain types like certain things. And only a sensitive and somewhat delicate male would have made the poopy diaper statement.
I could believe that guy could pitch a tent, but I used to live in the Rockies. You way overstepped the bounds with your claim.Ah... sensitivity means 'you die if you get lost outside'.
Sorry friend. I'm an Eagle Scout. Yes, I'm a caring husband and father, but I also love to go out fishing, camping, cross-country skiing, rock climbing, rafting, etc etc etc...
I'm sorry you don't believe my claims, but your belief doesn't change my past.
So is hers. My Parents AND Grandparents both had that same up-hill walk to and from school.
Do you need to know what I did?
First, a snow cave. Most inexperienced people will make one that is much too large so it won't be kept warm with your body heat. Big enough to sit in, no larger, and no longer than you need to lay down. The opening needs to be small, you can use large blocks of snow to close it in more when you are inside, so you don't have to struggle through a large hole.
Pine boughs on the floor and as blankets, you can always find dry pine boughs close to the trunks of large pine trees. You can cut through or break smaller ones, or find a rock twice the size of your fist with an edge to chop through.
For making fire, the bow method works very well. Take a lace out of your shoes or boot, and tie it to two ends of a curved stick, like a bow. Then, take another stick and wrap it once with the lace. So, you have the lace going from one end of the bow, around your second stick once, and attached to the other end of the bow. Get a flat rock to put pressure on top of the second stick with, and you can draw the bow back and forth. This will spin the stick at very high speeds, getting friction you need to start fire.
For food, find a running stream. Mountain streams can stay running most of the year. The friction of the water keeps the water above freezing. On small streams there is usually a slight undercut on the sides of the stream, 3-4 inches. Reach down in the water and run your hand along the undercut. When you find a fish, you can rub its belly without scaring it. Then, it's a matter of practice to learn to flip it up out of the water.
It's worse if the stream is frozen over. You have to break a large section open ahead of time, as it can scare the fish away when you do.
When you have fish, well, do you need me to explain how to gut a fish?
You can discredit my story, but it doesn't make it false. I grew up in the Rockies, I know a thing or two about cold. I've camped out in -30 degree weather.I've camped in the Rockies in the winter. It's exhilarating. But you did not do it in a sweater. You can post anything you want to attempt to pretend that you survived the winter there in a sweater in a snow cave. But, I got frostbite once fully decked in winter gear. This was in broad daylight. You'd have died from exposure.
If you got frostbite then you weren't doing it right, especially 'decked out' in winter gear. If it was that cold you should have figured out a better shelter.
Snow caves, done properly, are amazing. You have to have thick enough snow so you don't have any thin walls, you have to have an insulation lining(pine boughs work), and you have to make it so you can vent in and out enough air without losing the heat. You would be amazed at how warm a good snow cave can be.
If you need to, you can bring in coals for a few moments to warm it up.
I've camped out with traditional gear in -30 weather and never gotten close to frostbite. Either your gear was bad or you did something wrong.Sure you have
Anyway, I'm sure you'll find someone gullible enough to believe you.Just because you went camping in the Rockies doesn't mean you know everything about cold weather. Seriously, try to show some respect for people.
I told you, I grew up in that stuff. I spent every winter camping out. I know it.Show some respect? You show absolutely no respect when you make up stories and post them as if they were fact. It didn't happen. Sorry. Anyone who has spent the winter in the Rockies would know that a sweater isn't going to cut it in February. 24/7.
Unless you're a Yeti. Are you a Yeti? If so, sure. That could happen.You're just assuming I made it up. I didn't. Just because you haven't learned extreme cold survival skills doesn't mean others havent.
Next time you're out camping in the winter, try something. Find a fallen tree with space enough to stand under. Gather pine boughs and branches. Lean the branches against the log, and weave the pine boughs through the branches. Make a 6 foot wall like that on both sides, Then, you can block off most of the open end(on the higher end of the shelter). Next, pack snow on, so you'll be burying the entire thing in snow.
The pine boughs should be thick enough to block the wind completely before putting on the snow. If you do that, you can have a good enough shelter to light a small fire at the entrance and stay toasty warm no matter how cold it gets.
There are a lot of ways to survive in the cold, and they don't all involve Gore-Tex.Give me a break. If you want to be believed you've got to admit that you overstated. You did not spend a week at 10,000 feet in the Rockies in February with nothing but a sweater and a knife; and crawled around in creeks catching fish with your bare hands.
As long as you maintain that claim your posts can only be considered as filled with information gleaned from a magazine. You started the conversation with bs.No, I didn't 'crawl around in creeks'. That would be suicide. I reached in with a bare arm, and would only fish for a few minutes before returning to my fire to dry off and warm up.
The rest, yes, I did. Like I said, just because you can't do something doesn't mean it can't be done.
If we ever end up at the same stream together I'll show you how to catch fish with your hands.I'm afraid if we ended up in the wild together I'd have to take care of you. I actually do know how to survive in the wild.
Right. I'm sure that's why you got frostbite with proper gear.
You definitely don't know anything about the wild. Because you would have had a pretty bad case, if you had actually done what you claim you did.You know, there are people that live in the cold and don't get frostbite. You seem to think that because you did, everyone has to.
A proper combination of heating source and shelter, and you don't have to worry.
I'm curious, how did you end up with frostbite anyway? You said it was in the daylight, so I assume it was while you were moving?No. I don't think everyone gets frostbite. But, it can happen to anyone, given the right circumstances.
I wasn't in the wild when it happened and it was a slight case of frostbite. I had walked out of Cheyenne Mountain, the bus wasn't running for some reason. A 1/4 mile through the tunnel with the chinook winds blasting. If you've never heard of them, they come out of no where with no warning. Up to 90 miles an hour.
Walked down to the lower parking lot and found the car hard iced over. It took 30 minutes to chip away enough to get the door open.
Full snow gear on and layered, but the wind chill with the winds was brutal. I lost feeling in two of my toes for about six months.
I've never had a problem while camping; but I know how frigid the water is up there, how hard the cold is; and I never went unprepared.I know about chinook winds, they are warming winds. I've experienced them.
I'm sorry to hear that. I've always been able to get into my car within 5 minutes.
I'm sorry about your toes, that's definitely a situation where I would have looked for another option if it was that cold and windy. Unless I had on the best equipment.
Yes, the water is cold, which is why you don't fish for longer than a minute or two, and you don't get your clothes wet. This was a challenge I wanted to prove to myself I could do, and I did. I know you don't believe me, but it's really no skin off my back. I just don't appreciate being called a liar(let alone by 3 people in one thread).I was told chinook means snow eater. They can raise temperatures, but it wasn't happening that day. And, of course you would have been in your car in five minutes. You'd have used your show laces and pulled your sweater off; stood bare chested while using it as a snow scraper.
And, I don't doubt you would have stepped back behind the blast doors as soon as you hit the tunnel, phoned home and asked for someone to bring you more clothes. The only problem with that is your rescuer would have been stopped halfway up. That's a restricted area. But, we'd have had a good laugh at your expense when you were sitting around attempting to regale us with your survival skills.
And, no. I still don't believe youYes, chinook means snow eater. It means that because it is a warm wind. Not all winds are chinooks. If it's not a warm wind, it's not a chinook.
I simply said I've never taken longer than 5 minutes to get into my car, no matter how icy. Your insistence on ridiculing me is nothing more than immature. It's fine if you don't believe me, but I don't appreciate being called a liar.Its a tactic used around here when someone doesn't feel secure with themselves. I believe you.
I thought they were protesting with a bunch of unwashed, drug addled homeless murderers.
Honestly, I have no idea what they are protesting... without becoming an actual group with actual views, it's hard to know what the fuss is about. I get the feeling it's a 'we don't like the way things are, but we don't really understand what to do about it' kind of thing.
Were you not the one in another thread, that plead you were so poor that you couldn't feed your own child after you had had your bus pass stolen? That despite working hard and being an honest citizen, you could not cope with (what in previous economic times would have been a minor event?) Yet, apparently, you were one of the fortunate ones. You kept a roof over your head and you had people to turn to for help.
I thought you were a christian, isn't that supposed to mean you care about your fellow man? Despite allowing your child to starve, you still support the people that put you in this situation, and condemn those that were not as fortunate as you? Think about it?Yes, I had a very rough stretch. Luckily, we had been smart and saved up money and food in case of problems. We were able to get by, through job loss and sickness, because we were financially responsible in the years before. We didn't build up large amounts of credit card debt or anything like that. Bought used cars to save money on car payments. Lived within our means.
I don't actually label myself a Christian per se... I believe that God is known by many names. I do care about my fellow men, and try to help them as much as possible.
I don't think you know who caused the mess we are in. I'll give you a hint: it was very involved with lots of people, including the average american. I dont' condemn those who can't do without. However, I don't appreciate naive protestors comparing themselves to the soldiers at Valley Forge.Then I'l ask you again. Why, if you had been so fiscally responsible, had you allowed your child to starve and lose weight, because you had your bus pass stolen? You're ever a liar or you neglected your child. If you want to post in these forums, you need to have a long memory.
That was when we were at the end of our rope. We used our savings while I took care of my wife and looked for a new job. I got one as we were running out of money. It took me 3 weeks before I got my first full paycheck, which caught us up on our bills, and the pass was stolen after that.
You are very intent on calling me out Hollie. Maybe you should stop being so hostile.
That is exactly what they are saying, just in their words not yours.
You're not alone, these brats with their hands out wont suffer for long if they suffer at all. When they get a few years behind them and realize that income is tied to revenue they will hit heir foreheads and come to the realization that they were stupid. Low risk low reward.
I don't want to judge people as a group... I don't know what their situation is individually... but from what I've seen of people talking to news and such, they don't even realize what it is they are upset about...
Capitalism is evil, especially for those who work hard and get/make jobs.
- ahorsebackposted 12 years ago0
Hey I remember , in the real world , getting out of high school and college in the seventies and actually taking a job at min. wage and growing from there !!!
Not standing in a park waiting for the world to hand me my dream! Grow up ! Put your tent away and go to work!Yeah, people used to have to really work for things... My parents started out saving $5/month. After 20 years they had their own house paid for. Now, everyone expects to have a house right out of college...
It's quite a different world than it used to be.
- ahorsebackposted 12 years ago0
Exactly , and I don't fault anyone who is hungry , unemployed , or standing up for a real cause . Hell, thats honorable ! But this OWS is a joke! "Valley forge "....please ! Everyone today wants to start at the top with everything already "earned"!
And, as if I have to ask this question......
But, what moron made the comparison of the OWS to Vally Forge?
Just curious the source that said it.Sounds like most places they are camped at are tired of them and are kicking them out. Too much crime and too much mess.
