Bible Study - Revelation 20:10-15

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   vector7posted 12 years ago

   This is a Christian discussion regarding Hell.
   
   The discussion is on the meaning of the verses 10-15 of chapter 20 in the book of Revelation.
   
   This is not a thread questioning the authority of the Word as written. We are discussing it's meaning.
   
   If you feel it holds no authority, you are in the wrong thread as this is a Christian discussion.
   
   We welcome all to join under such understanding.
   
   ==============================
   
   A few notes:
   
   The main point in question is the nature of Hell as stated here.
   
   Eternal, or temporary.
   
   
   If you have a refutation to this scripture, please use scripture to validate any and all points you make.
   
   Please be kind!
   
   
   ============================
   
   With that said, please, let us seek God's wisdom in looking deeper into why Jesus' salvation is so important!

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      Dave Mathewsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      vector: The way I have been lead to understand the word "Hell" in these verses is that there is a waiting place for those who have already died, without knowing Jesus or without knowing about Jesus, people who have had no opportunity to either accept or refuse Jesus await Jesus return. Those souls must have an opportunity to either accept or deny Jesus. Those who accept Him will be gathered up to be with Jesus, those who refuse, will end up in the "Lake of Fire" with the anti-christ, false prophets, and satan himself.  In Revelation 20:14 we are told that both death and hell will be cast into the "Lake of Fire" too.
      
      Hell is not eternal but the Lake of Fire definitely is.
      
      Hope you find this helpful in your search for God's truth.

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         Shiningstar4u2cposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Dave, I agree in that Hell is not eternal but the Lake of Fire Is. Rev. 20:14.
         I believe all those in Hell, Satan, Anti-Christ, The Beast, False Prophet, Hitler etc and Hell itself will be all cast into the Lake of eternal burning Fire! The Bible says Hell was "created". So anything that has a beginning also has an end. So hell has an end as it was created. But the Lake of Fire is Eternal and has no beginning nor end. Much I could say about this but staying with what was asked, I will let this be it.

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            Dave Mathewsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Shiningstar4u2c: Are you in agreeance with my explanation of Hell being a waiting place for those souls who never heard about Jesus, never heard about Jesus forgiveness of sin, never had any chance to accept or refuse Jesus as Saviour. This is why Hell is a temporary place that God will destroy eventually.

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               Shiningstar4u2cposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               I agree Dave Hell is temporary. But I do not agree it is for as you have said.
               Why I say that is this. The Bible says, "Hell was created for the Devil and His Adversaries". I do not believe innocent people go to hell though they may be ignorant. yet the Bible also says that, "All men are inexcusable before God" in that the heavens declare His handiwork! "Thou art inexcusable oh man". I believe anyone who has never came to the Knowledge of the Truth and died never went to hell but heaven, in that I believe they never left heaven to begin with. Now I see heaven as something different than most do as well is why I say what I have.

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                  Dave Mathewsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  I believe you are confusing Hell with the "Lake of Fire. Satan and all of his followers, including those who deny Jesus will end up in the Lake of Fire, Hell itself will end up in the Lake of Fire also along with death.
                  See REVELATION: 20: 11-15:

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         vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this

         ha ha..
         
         Yes, I was in a haste wasn't I. Yet, it does leave a good point to make.
         
         Do you guys know of a scripture that states where the Lake of Fire is?
         
         And I understand your meaning as far as eternity, beginning and end.. but then again we were created by God and through Christ have eternal life.
         
         I wonder how this differs?
         
         

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            Dave Mathewsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            I am unaware of any physical description of where the "Lake of Fire" is. I know I must do everything I can to avoid it though, at all cost.
            
            As for eternal life: You do realize that we were created as "Spirit" and yes indeed our spirit, that which reflects the image of God will live on for an eternity, regardless of whether one accepts Jesus and rises to Heaven or rejects Jesus and is thrown into the Lake of Fire, which is referred to as eternal damnation because one will be eternally separated from God and Jesus.

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               Shiningstar4u2cposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               I like your comment Dave. Just my strange way of thinking, but to me God is the only thing eternal. Anything that is considered eternal is because it has become a oneness with God thus it is God. Now here is something to consider. In Revelations people are likened unto Waters and thus waters meaning a lake if you will as we call a Lake as to a source of water. So a "Lake" of people if you will. Now where does the "Fire" part come in?
               The Bible says, "God is a consuming Fire", now we know God is eternal and if He is in this description a Fire, then we know He is an Eternal Fire.
               Now What about the LAKE OF PEOPLE? The Bible says, God makes His Ministers a "Flaming Fire" and the Bible tells us that the Saints are Children of Light and Light has heat and if the Saints are a part of God then they are Fire as well. The wicked are "Darkness" and we know that light eradicates darkness. God is Light and God is Eternal and God is Fire. So we can see that the source of Light could be the Fire. Now again I believe nothing exist  "Outside" of God because He fills all in all. Now here is the verse that will be a key if you will of the picture I am painting for you.
               "The wicked will e "Tormented" in the "Presence" of The Saints of God, and the "Smoke" of their "Torment" rises forever.
               Remember how the devils cried out at just the presence of Jesus?
               See the wicked will be cast ALIVE into the Presence of the Saints of God and will be tormented by their presence! Light destroys darkness.
               So God as to all of His Saints that are in Him, they are that Lake, that many waters, those people that the wicked will be cast into, as they are cast into God, in that their spirit is wicked and the Bible says at death the spirit goes back to God who gave it.
               Now having said that, maybe because of the blood of Jesus in that it covers Sin even for the wicked, that possibly when a wicked man dies He is cast back into God and tormented but because of the Blood he is only in the frying pan, but once the Blood of gone he will be in the "Fire".
               Just my strange ways of seeing things. I hope it helps.

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                  Dave Mathewsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  To see the reference to Lake of Fire please check out REVELATION:20: 11-15

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            Shiningstar4u2cposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Hey V7, See you was created by God, and you also have an end through God. Your body, soul and spirit all must be changed, translated, transformed, and transfigurated and then you are Eternal, but before you became born again, you was dead while you yet lived, dead in sin, then when you repented and received forgiveness then by your faith and confession in what Christ did for you at Calvary, then you died as to you took the death of Jesus as your own death for sins and He gave you His Life in return and now that it is Him living and no longer you, so He is eternal. But you def had a beginning and you had an end, you began as dust in the garden, and the soul that you was sinned and died, but it died as to His Death upon the cross and from dust you are and to dust you return in that in the Mind of God he has reckoned you dead by the sacrifice of Jesus and alive by His glorious resurrection! I hope this helps.

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   jacharlessposted 12 years ago

   Given that the letter/vision of John outlines back to back the dismantling of the Adamic Inception and complete Restoration, via the unifying of body-brain and spirit with Spirit, the concept of Hell, Hades, Sheol is void.
   
   Note this defines the judgment of the dead and not the living.
   Massively important!
   In v4, the notation is made 3 times "...the first resurrection".
   
   When did the first resurrection occur?
   
   then in v10 we see the dead judged, as for the second death, spirit itself, and immediately death, deception (blindness of the Inception) -- and the core of it, Hell/Hades/Sheol, through into the very same 'lake'. The eternal pit of darkness -the void that has no light- is removed.
   
   Symbolically: humanity is no longer under the power of death or deception of Adamic Inception.

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      vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Well, 'lake', and " eternal pit of darkness "
      
      Doesn't seem to read that way to me friend.
      
      Vs 10
      
      And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever.
      
      Vs 15
      
      And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
      
      
      Now, I see nothing of void or pit, but I do see lake and fire. I also see "tormented day and night forever and ever."
      
      This, I believe, is what so many would like to erase or alter to their personal appeal as it's a very hard thing to swallow.
      
      But to do so is to change the blatent words. I think making 'everything' symbolic may be to a person's disadvantage as Jesus spoke of Satan falling as lightning when cast from Heaven and many try to make him a 'figurative' meaning, but the Bible obviously intends to convey that Satan is indeed a person and has every characteristic of one.
      
      
      Why is 'the first resurrection' massively important?
      
      Does it erase the words lake of fire? Or torment? Or forever and ever?
      
      These were the things I want people read and conclude on.
      
      If the Son of God died on a cross for puny little humans, I would think the fate such a noble cause intended to save us from would have to be severe.
      
      If there is no suffering for anyone, what then is Christ 'saving' anyone from?
      
      Why does Christ suffer so horribly for some people who have no punishment?
      
      It completely takes 'saving' away and leaves people thinking it's no big deal. But that is in no way how the writings of the Old or New Testament portray Christ's sacrifice. It is shown as GREATLY important. And, why, is the question.
      
      I see what is said here to be a very noble cause fitting the equation very well. If Jesus is to save, pain is something people are very grateful to be saved from.
      
      
      What are your thoughts?
      
      

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         jacharlessposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         It is massively important because:
         
         the events of 'devil', etc relate specifically to : the dead, prior to the resurrection. At the resurrection (outlined in chapter 21) there is no more 'hell' as both death and hell (also called the Pit, Hades, Sheol) are thrown into that lake. The torment is for death, hell and deception (ha-satan).
         What deception? The madness of a fall into the knowledge of good-evil.
         This was the original stumbling block.
         It all comes back to that.
         
         v 5 : This is the first resurrection. !!!
         He clearly says it, not once but 3 times so the reader understands what he is saying.
         
         v10 : deceiver/ dragon/ ha-satan destroyed and tormented forever
         -this is entire Adamic Inception (good-evil paradox; aka reasoning)
         
         v14 : death & Hell destroyed; tormented forever.
         -this is the physical, mental and spiritual effect of the deception. The effect of the deception (death & hell) are no longer in the way. Man is no longer subject to death nor hell. (as he said, 'from the beginning deceived the nations'). What deceived the nations? An fallen angel (of which there is no record of such event)? No. The knowledge of sin/good-evil (of which there is a record)? Yes.
         
         This is the entire point of resurrection, the work, etc. To remove forever, the thing that caused man so much grief and trouble; and enable him to transform into the eternal being he was first created to be.
         
         chapter 21 is a complete visual expression of the resurrection.
         
         But, most will ask/argue with me, why I am so certain of this fact. My reply:
         
         Rev 1.1 This is the revelation [revealing, unveiling, mystery explained] of Y`shua Moshiach.
         
         The entire letter is a visualized account of the Work, Testimony of that Work, the Purpose of the Work and Results/Fulfillment of that Work -on behalf of every human that has existed or shall.
         A literal and visual declaration of what every human is able to do, be -even resemble (in image and likeness).
         James

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   Disappearingheadposted 12 years ago

   Fundamental problem: the Church reads these verses with a western mindset and not the mind set of a 1st century Jew by whom these were written.
   
   The lake of fire is no more literal than a ten headed dragon walking up the beach or a talking eagle. If you search the Hebrew scriptures there are zero references to any post death torment or annihilation. This should strike the thinking person as rather odd. Throughout the bible it is God who is described as a consuming fire; thus I propose that the LofF is none other than God Himself.
   
   In Jewish thinking Satan is either a faithful servant of God sent to accuse Israel to keep them honest before God or a general attitude of rebellion. Only after their exile to Babylon did the Satan begin to metamorphose into the arch fiend of God.
   
   The next question to ask is who are those who's name are not in the book of life? Search the scripture, they will not tell you. To suggest that they are those who are not Christians is speculation.
   
   Notice too that those before the throne are judged ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS not their beliefs or lack thereof. Thus the fate of all cannot be the same otherwise judgement is redundant.
   
   Finally I am suspicious of the validity of Revelation. Nobody knows who wrote it and mixed within it is Babylonian astrology. Note the four living creatures: lion - Leo, man - Aquarius, ox - Taurus, and eagle is the Babylonian interpretation of what we see as Scorpio. All four of these are at opposing points of the zodiac. The whole book is a confusing muddle. Should we take the vision/visitation of Jesus anymore credibly than all those TV evangelists who claim to have had visitations and trips to Heaven? Don't forget we only have the book because a 4th century Catholic committee voted it in. If it was for them we would see it today as no more than an esoteric amusement.

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