When should personal liberty be curtailed?

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JSChamsposted 11 years ago
At what point does the ideology one one group allow for the removal of personal liberties across the board? I am of course speaking of the Health Care law and not another rhetorical concept of any sort.
Does Obamacare allow the Government to dictate my actions so as not to be irresponsible to society?
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  prettydarkhorseposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  That's what you do when you buy insurance for car, same as when you have communicable disease! You need to be responsible for yourself and others.
  
  There is a limit to freedom because you peruse many of society's structures, roads etc.
  
  C'mon don't be selfish, that is what societies are here for. In the long run, universal heath care is the best for you and your children, your grandchildren.
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  JSChamsposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Car insurance doesn't limit my freedom. The IRS isn't coming for me if I don't have car insurance. No one else will either if I don't get pulled over or have an accident.
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  prettydarkhorseposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I really respect your point, but my point is that health is a basic need and freedom is just an idea. If we all have the opportunities to prolong life and the quality of it, why not?
  
  In addition to that, if you don't like to buy health care for example because of freedom etc., if you have a disease which is communicable you are risking others. You can't live alone in this world and can't affect others.
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  Chris Hughposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Freedom is not just an idea. It's something more than a need.
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  getitriteposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  But go and try to register your car, and see how the DMV will revoke your privilege.
  
  Isn't that the way the IRS will implement this...the same thing. It is when you try to file your taxes, that the IRS will get you. Same as the DMV.
  
  You should probably be protesting car insurance, as well.
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  Reality Bytesposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Government does not force every individual to purchase car insurance!
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  getitriteposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  OK. I stand corrected. Please proceed with your tantrum against the current administration. Unfortunately, for you, there is about to be four more years of this "tyranny"
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  PrettyPantherposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  People who actually live with "tyranny" would laugh at the spoiled babies who call Obama a tyrant for wanting everyone to have health care.
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  getitriteposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  That's why it is apparent that these people have a hidden agenda. They just HATE President Obama.
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  Reality Bytesposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  That is just silly.
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  getitriteposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  But true, however.
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  Reality Bytesposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  True? in your imagination!
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  getitriteposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Of course I don't expect a grain of honesty from you. How absurd.
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  Reality Bytesposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You should not expect anything from me! I owe you nothing!
  
  It is truly absurd.
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  Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  That is not true, you owe whatever the representatives of the people say you owe the society that protects you, it's the cost of living in it and being aided by it, if you don't like it I hear in Somalia no one expects you to give them anything. In the meantime you do owe society, you owe it for putting you through school, for having the police and fire service there to help you when you needed, for sacrificing it's sons in our military to protect you, while you enjoy that protection you absolutely owe everyone in this country something, it's the social contract, learn it!
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  Cagsilposted 11 years agoin reply to this
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  Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  A resounding factual argument as ever.
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  Cagsilposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I didn't need to post a factual argument, when I wanted to laugh at something which made me laugh.
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  Reality Bytesposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I do not owe anyone anything. You really do ASSUME WAY TOO MUCH!
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  getitriteposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Irrelevant! What a pathetic way to debate.
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  Reality Bytesposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Oh yeah, we were busy debating how you take things from your imagination and expect them to be real to everyone else.
  
  de·lu·sion·al
  
  1. having false or unrealistic beliefs or opinions:
  
  http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/delusional
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  60
  JSChamsposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  No....we are just used to liberty and want it to stay that way.
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  Billy Hicksposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  The difference is, if you don't want to pay for car insurance, you can simply choose not to have a car. You can't "opt out" of this health care law, which is the largest complaint I've been hearing from people.
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  Reality Bytesposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Why are you trying to disrupt a well thought out point with facts.
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  Cagsilposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  And that would be pathetically misguiding people into believing junk. At a legal age a person can buy a car. Insurance IS forced upon people. Insurance isn't required for the operation of the car. It has NOTHING to do with the car itself, UNLESS something happens either with the car or to the car. By LAW you cannot have a car without insurance. It's WRONG. People can buy a car. Just legally cannot drive or move it anywhere.
  You cannot OPT OUT of a lot of the pathetic laws governing people.
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  Friendlywordposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  For real?
  for the sake of your total freedom from society; you should be able to drive a car over a child and not have to pay a cent to pay for that childs recovery or death?
  
  And, when your car rolls over after you maim or kill the child; we have to pay for your wheelchair and portable respirator.(so you can run over another child?)
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  JSChamsposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Who said that? Not me.
  I said it's my choice just as it should be my choice whether or not i have insurance. I understand your confusion as that level of liberty may be a foreign concept to you.
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  Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  So people should be able to choose whether they pay for education, whether they pay for the military? It's just a tax for a service there is no limitation of liberty.
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  JSChamsposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I never said any of that either and you know that very very well.
  It is so amazing the fight the administration put up that by God this was not a tax. Not a tax. not a tax. Obama even straightened George Stephonopolous out on that very point.
  
  But now.....oh my aren't we happy this is a tax? never met a tax they didn't like.
  Let's not forget something. This law is a bill. Bills get amended pretty regularly.
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  Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I always considered it a tax and now the supreme court has confirmed it is exactly that, we can safely ignore the spin of politicians can't we? It's a tax for a service no limitation of liberties.
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  JSChamsposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Josak , you are frustrating.
  
  Did you see my previous post? Where I mentioned bills being amended. The government in this case has been handed too much unfettered power.
  The SCOTUS decision is a precedent. With that precedent any number of such programs can be ruled a tax and the American people themselves will have no actual voice in what is occurring just as the majority were shouted down with Obamacare.
  
  I stated in comment to a hub earlier that anything this sweeping and with such grasp of a large portion of the economy should have been a national referendum.
  
  And NO Barack Obama was NOT the referendum.
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  Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Healthcare is just a tax for a service just like schools tax or the taxes that fund the military and police, it is not a limitation of your liberty. End of story.
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  American Viewposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Hmmm Blue Cross does not call it a tax, they cal them premiums
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  Chris Daneposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Not sure why you think the government is going to come after you for not purchasing health insurance. I thought the big revelation of the Supreme Court decision was that this wasn't a mandate but a tax. They decision actually severely limited the government's mandate ability through the commerce clause.
  
  So, that means if you have healthcare, you don't get taxed. If you don't get healthcare, then your IRS refund receives a deduction. And since I'm sure we're all good about avoiding taxes, we'll use the health care exchanges or enrollment assistance to avoid the tax. What's the big deal?
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  Cagsilposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Government shouldn't need to curtail liberty for any reason, regardless.
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  JSChamsposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Correctomundo.
  Watch and see how long it takes for them to begin telling folks what they can and can't do now because of this law.
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  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I suppose that if, say, you get hit and seriously injured by a car and are prepared to lie there in the road until you die then yes, you stand up for your liberties.
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  Chris Hughposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I'd actually rather that than have to carry around a government ID card. Weird, huh?
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60
JSChamsposted 11 years ago
What wrong folks? Don't want to see ourselves in the mirror?
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tobey100posted 11 years ago
Personal liberties should never be curtailed by any government unless such 'activity' is deemed to be illegal by the population, not the government. The Federal Government of the United States was not founded to decide which liberties we can enjoy and which we cannot. The Federal government was not founded to make life in this country 'fair'. At 57 years old I find we have surrendered so many of our personal liberties I no longer recognize this country as the one I was born in.

As far as Obama's joke regarding healthcare. Too many deals, too many lies, too many accounting tricks. Anytime a politician, like Pelosi, tells you they have to pass the bill in order to know whats in it you know you're screwed.

Millions of poor and lower middle class Americans firmly believe they are getting free healthcare. None have bothered to actually read any part of the massive bill. Read the first 200 pages, if you can, then tell me you support it. We need healthcare reform. We DO NOT need the government running healthcare.
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  JSChamsposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Ah....at last one who is enlightened!
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  tobey100posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  They don't teach American history anymore. They teach what they wish might have been. Obama signed his own death warrant with the decision.
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  Chris Hughposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I agree with a lot of what you said, but I think you need to explain this comment. Perhaps what you mean is that President Obama is unlikely to be reelected because of this decision?
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joer4x4posted 11 years ago
Answer: When they feel like it.
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Ron Montgomeryposted 11 years ago
It is amusing to hear about all of the right-wingers saying today that they will flee this "tyranny" by moving to Canada...

Their other option is to vote out the president who got this passed and replace him with the man who first championed it. They can't seem to grasp the reality that for once the nutjobs lost and the American people won.

Sorry, it happens sometimes...
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  JSChamsposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Ah.....my good friend who posted full frontal nudity on my forum and got it shut down. I said something unfortunate...to them ...about Barack and got banned but you remained untouched.
  How charming.
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Really? You got banned and don't understand why?
  
  Really? You think a woman in a bikini top, shot from the waist up is full-frontal nudity?
  
  Really? You think a law that says poor people should get health care too is tyranny?
  
  Really? You think Rush Limbaugh is a constitutional scholar?
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  JSChamsposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  No to most of that but regardless you were a factor.
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  American Viewposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  It may not have been Ron, but the thread did get shut down because of the picture
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Not according to the moderator
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Not according to the moderator
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  American Viewposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Yes according to the moderator, I saw it before the entire thread was taken down.
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  No, you are wrong...
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  American Viewposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  If I am wrong, post it again and lets see what happens.
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  JSChamsposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks AV. I got your back anytime.
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I'll wait to see if the burka clears first.
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  Chris Hughposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Seriously, you can get a whole thread shut down by posting a picture into it? Wow. OMG, I see the little camera button right there...oh, the temptation...aaaaack! I can't help myself now.
  
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Ron Montgomeryposted 11 years ago
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  Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  HAHAHAH I just sprayed coffee everywhere.
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I guess this would be considered partial frontal nudity.
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  prettydarkhorseposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  It is hot here but I am smiling!
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Really? I can't tell through the hood.
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  prettydarkhorseposted 11 years agoin reply to this
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innersmiffposted 11 years ago
99% of the defense for Obamacare is moralising nonsense, and 0% of it is based on any empirical evidence. Whether you believe government should be running healthcare or not, Obamacare will definitely not improve the health of the country in the long term. The bill basically allows insurance companies to stiff the consumers with no monetary consequences. The thing was written by insurance companies for pete's sake.
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  prettydarkhorseposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You said
  
  "The bill basically allows insurance companies to stiff the consumers with no monetary consequences"
  
  It is not empirical evidence if you predict what will happen in the future, isn't it?
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Bob Zermopposted 11 years ago
No, I don't think the ACA sets any dangerous precedent. Because, like conservatives have been saying for so long, it's a tax, Congress' powers are limited to that. Taxes are easily regulated and repealed, so I don't believe there's any danger there. Whether the ACA is good policy is a different question than whether it's constitutional.
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1. 60
  JSChamsposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  If you look on some similar forums you will see a link I posted about the IRS.
  HP wont let me post it on this forum. Too many links to it.
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peoplepower73posted 11 years ago
After reading this forum, I think people are confused about the Affordable Care Act. There are two parts two it. There is the main law and the Individual mandate. Here is how the individual mandate works.

Individual Mandate - effective 2014

Here is where the most confusion comes into play.

• Individuals who don't have insurance, but can afford it, will be required to obtain basic health insurance coverage or pay a tax to help offset the costs of caring for uninsured Americans.

• If affordable coverage is not available to an individual, he or she will be eligible for an exemption. This law will affect 1% of the population.
• Please understand, if you already have insurance, this law will not affect you
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Reality Bytesposted 11 years ago
social contract?

Can anyone show me a copy of this contract, with my endorsement, consenting to be part of said contract?
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  Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_contract
  
  You participate in it daily, it's why you pay taxes and it's why you receive the services of the state under sovereignty.
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  Reality Bytesposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Social contract arguments typically posit that individuals have consented, either explicitly or tacitly, to surrender some of their freedoms and submit to the authority of the ruler or magistrate
  
  I DO NOT CONSENT!
  
  There, done!
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  Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Great, leave, the protection of this state, your citizenship and the privileges that gives are part of that contract, your side of the contract is to obey the law.
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  Reality Bytesposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Depends on your definition of Law, doesn't it?
  
  FMOTL!
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  Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  The law is not actually up for your interpretation, it's the will of the people through their elected representatives, you have a vote and a voice to change it but not the right to break or ignore it.
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  Cagsilposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Actually, the Law is open to interpretations, otherwise they would be absolute and NO law is absolute.
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  Reality Bytesposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  "What is Lawful Rebellion?
  
  Rebellion can be defined as;
  
  1.Refusal to consent to an authority a code or a convention.
  
  2. An action or display of resistance of authority of an established government.
  
  Lawful can be defined as;
  
  1. Staying within the boundaries of the Law.
  
  2. Actions which are permitted by Law.
  
  3. Methods of dissent that do not violate any Laws.
  
  4. A lawful refusal to consent to an authority that is unjust!
  
  Statutes and Codes although having the power of Law, are not Laws!
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  Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  See that is just not true, the elected officials have the power to draft laws, that includes statutes and codes and violating them in an way is a crime, call it whatever you want, don't pay your taxes (code) and see what happens.
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  Reality Bytesposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  If you consent to being responsible for your government created corporate strawman, go for it. You are more than free to accept the lies you have been told your whole life! I am a human being not a legal fiction.
  
  I pay zero in taxes, legally!
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  Josakposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Not unless you earn very very little you don't the straw man tax theory has been debunked in court hundreds of times just like all the other excuses people have for not paying tax.
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  Reality Bytesposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I do not deal in dirty, disease ridden, federal reserve notes. I would not trade product or labor for nothing.
  
  value of a federal reserve note = nothing!
  
  What court? What jurisdiction?
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  Quilligrapherposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Howdy RB. It has been a while, has it not?
  
  While there is no physical, signed contract, there is still an implicit contract that we enter into when we willingly participate in society and enjoy its benefits. In addition, even if a state of anarchy did exist, it would still be in everyone’s interest to form a social contract. Thus, the justification for the state, and for morally generally, would still exist. The social contract is an implicit agreement among self-interested, rational people.
  Since you imagine you can voluntarily excuse yourself from participating in the social contract with the rest of us, you choose not to consent to the existing rule of authority. I hear you!
  
  Therefore, it must follow you do not vote. As an outsider, you do not care what government regulations are passed, and you refrain from trying to change or influence the behavior of others who subscribe to the social contract. Obviously, you do not respect posted highway speed limits or traffic lights and you do not expect others to conform either. You do not expect others to respect agreements they have made with you and you do not think others should expect you to keep your agreements either. You do not rely on any laws nor expect any enforcement agencies to protect you or your family from murder, assault, theft, and vandalism. You do not care if others, individually or in concert, infringe upon your free speech, religious beliefs, or penalize you based on your race of gender.
  
  In addition, I expect you have voluntarily opted out of all public services. You do not expect to share any benefits acquired and accrued by society. You home school your children. You refuse free fire protection and EMS. You do not engage in commerce. You do not use any mass transit or travel on public roadways. You do not consider yourself a citizen of the United States and you have no passport.
  
  Do all of these statements apply to you? They must because only an anarchist or a hypocrite would enjoy the many advantages of society without feeling some obligation to play by the rules, all of the rules.
  
  Stay well, RB. I respect your views and opinions. And, as you know, I have no desire to sway you from them. However, it is important to note that many do not see them all as compatible with their expectations for the future.
  Q.
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  Reality Bytesposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I live up to any contractual obligations that I consent to.
  
  I harm no one, and I respect the property of others at all times. I do not need authority to enforce these things upon me.
  
  The Police are not here to protect us, they will however write a nice report on what happened. I am in a much better situation to protect me and mine then any Law enforcement agency will ever be!
  
  I do not drive so traffic laws are irrelevant, I know the argument "STAY OFF OUR ROADS", my response is always "Get your roads off of OUR fields"
  
  My Rights do not exist due to the benevolence of any government created entity. My Rights exist due to my creation! I am willing to Fight for these Rights and die if need be!
  
  I do not use any public services.
  
  I do not engage in commerce with federal reserve notes.! I was an employed taxpaying citizen when my children attended school. I lived up to my parental obligations, only once they left home did I FREE myself!
  
  I am not chattel (citizen)! I am a Freeman, a sovereign individual, I do not violate any Law, I have not had a confrontation with authority in over twenty years.
  
  LOL, take your roads off of OUR fields!
  
  Nice chat Quilligrapher. My response looks like a cluster of bird shot, but I have tried to respond to all your questions.
  
  ps: I have an acquaintance that has asked me to run his business for the past two years, at a $2000.00 a week salary. I do not consent!
  
  Who is John Galt?
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  peoplepower73posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Everything you said is great,... if you lived on a island by yourself!
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  Reality Bytesposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I do not!
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  peoplepower73posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Do you realize that this medium your are using now, the internet was developed by our government for the sole purpose of defense against an enemy. So that in case all of our lines of communication were cut-out that the defense department would still have a way of communicating with Universeties for information?
  
  The department is called DARPA (Defense Advanced Research Project Authority). They worked in conjunction with CERN, a Swiss Government entity. The beauty of the internet is that it can reroute your information in bits and pieces all over the world until it gets to its destination and then it is reassembled. Their is a reason for that it's so if the lines of communicaton are destroyed, the information can still get through. So by you communicating on the internet, you are enjoying a creation by two govenment entitiies. And they still are in control, at a very high level. If you don't believe me, just google what I have said. I don't mean this to by sarcastic. I just want you to be aware of this. Enjoy the internet.
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  Reality Bytesposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Ok, I do not get your point?
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  peoplepower73posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks, I appreciate that.
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