Spelling and grammar for apprentices

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Steve Westposted 11 years ago
Yes, I am a new "hubber." I am also a new writer. It has only been a few months since discovering I really enjoy writing on HubPages. My problem is, since I started writing on HubPages I have been a bit, let's just say, OCD when it comes to my spelling and grammar. Before I hit the publish button I do my absolute very best to try and be grammatically correct, however many times I am not. I often find silly and downright stupid mistakes in both punctuation and sentence structure, sometimes days later. In other words, nobody is perfect and I am far from it. I constantly re-proof my hubs at least to try for perfection.
I am aware of the apprentice program and the goal it is trying to achieve. However, as I read some writing from the "a" group with scores in the 90's I discovered an incredible amount of mistakes, silly mistakes even my 7 year-old would notice. I find this disappointing and I am not sure I even really want to write on HubPages any more if that is the standard. I thought grammar was of utmost importance to the respectability of HubPages. If not, I simply won't worry about it any more and get better sleep at night.
If the "a" group is going to be setting an example of quality writing on HubPages they should be taught to proofread a little bit better. Again, nobody is perfect, however some of the mistakes I found were just ridiculously appalling and I am embarrassed to be part of that.
Once again, writing is difficult and there are many things you need to get right, so it is hard to be perfect. But come on apprentices, try to avoid the REALLY obvious mistakes. The red squiggly line under a word means something might be wrong. You should look a little bit more closely at it.
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  SimeyCposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  This is a great community - if you see silly errors, send a nice email to the relevant writer and politely point out the error.
  
  The 'a' does focus on trying to produce quality writing - however as in anything you will get a varying degree of competence in writing; no apprenticeship scheme is going to correct this – to do this you really need a fully fledged English class going.
  
  The ‘a’ scheme focusing on using the tools available, using techniques to market articles, focusing on removing silly errors etc. – this doesn’t mean that every hub that every apprentice writes is going to be perfect.
  
  Overall, if you look at the hubs that the ‘a’ teams wrote prior to the program you’ll see their ‘a’ hubs are vastly improved – that’s the aim of the apprenticeship. You will never get a 100% success rate with grammar and spelling.
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  Steve Westposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you for your reply SimeyC. I agree, 100% perfection will never happen in writing, at least not with me. I'm happy with 80-90%. My point was about the obvious errors, the type indicative of someone in a rush or not caring. I cannot see someone entering the apprentice program and not caring, so it must be rushing part. Anyway, thank you again for taking the time for a reply SimeyC.
  PS Now I'm really going to be worried about my spelling and grammar. I've read this paragraph 15 times! 16
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  SimeyCposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Generally it's a good idea to write hubs in Word or another decent word processor - that way these silly errors will be caught. As an apprentice I try to proof read everything I write - however, it's a fairly common thing that proof-reading by an author will not pickup many errors, even the silly ones - it's far better to get someone else to proof-read.
  
  I guess that's where the hub-hopper or other writers come in - if I spot an error on someone's hub I'll send a polite note.
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  Cardisaposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Steve, I must agree with Simey.
  
  The truth is since I have been a part of the AP program I have had my mentors constantly correcting my work......it is embarrassing yes
  
  I don't have an excuse as I should not allow anything to make me look like I don't care about my writing, all I can say is that for the past few months I have really had a hard time with so much happening in my family that sometimes I am so distracted I miss the mistake even when rereading my work. In most cases the spell checker misses some mistakes that can only be dealt with by reading carefully.
  
  I always appreciate when someone points out my mistakes to me so if you should see mine please email me.
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  Natashalhposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I have received a couple of messages in the past pointing out spelling errors and I was thankful to get them! It is difficult to proofread your own writing, no matter how hard you try.
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  Steve Westposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  My other computer just crashed mid-sentence so I don't know if post will display. Anyway, I was writing about how I agree with you about proofing your own work is tough. I spend more time proofing than writing and still never achieve perfection. Thank you for taking the time to comment on my forum post Natashalh.
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  kathleen1630posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  you're right natashalh. even i sometimes overlooked some grammalr or spelling errors. Sometimes, I asked my friends to read through my posts. It is really good to have constructive criticisms once in a while.
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  IzzyMposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  What really annoys me is that I quite often only notice spelling errors after a hub has been published, and before the pending period is over.
  
  Editing it means waiting another 24 hours for publication.
  
  Not editing it means leaving glaring and embarrassing errors for the world to see.
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  Nesbyteposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  There are a couple of things to think about here:
  
  1. Hubpages text capsules tell you about misspelled words, but not grammatical errors or words out of context (e.g. if you type "an" instead of "and", HP won't pick it up, whereas Word will).
  
  2. If they moderate all the hubs with slightly poor grammar, they'll have 5 writers left. My grammar and spelling abilities are pretty good (he said modestly), but I make loads of mistakes all the time. I try and correct them later, of course, but I don't spot everything. The same goes for just about ever writer in the world.
  
  I'm curious about these mistakes though. You say they're very stupid mistakes, but could you give a couple of examples? Obviously I don't want you to name hubs or hubbers, but I'd be interested to see what types of mistakes the apprentices are making.
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  Steve Westposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I love the 5 writers comment. You're right, and again I am also far,far away from perfection. Again my point was very obvious mistakes. It is not the unnoticed mistakes "an or and" or "then and than" I am talking about. The mistakes I referred to were blatant errors I mentioned in my initial post. These errors were not the type unrecognizable by spell-check. I noticed another hubber had kindly mentioned one of the mistakes in the comment section and it had been fixed, however there were still several more. I would never rat someone out or mention their name but if you read recent apprentice hubs I am sure you will find them (the mistakes). Thank you for your response Nesbyte. I hope you don't find too many mistakes in my stuff but if you do just let me know. I have just started writing a few months ago and sentence structure is my worst enemy!
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  wildernessposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I, too, am "far,far" ( )away from perfection. One of the reasons is that the "red squiggly" lines aren't very accurate. I usually find two or three in a hub that the dictionary tells me is spelled correctly but the checker says isn't. Add in a few for names and such and suddenly the page is filled with squiggly lines that are all actually correct. Pretty soon they get ignored, although they certainly should not be.
  
  I try hard with proofing, but am never totally successful. It's why I go back in a week, and then (time permitting) again in a month looking for just this kind of thing.
  
  I think most of us, "a" or not, try hard but no one catches them all.
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  jenb0128posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  So true! Google Chrome is always putting red squiggly lines under words I know are correct. As a bird owner and wildlife rehabilitator, I use "cockatiel" and "rehabilitator" frequently, and Chrome always tells me they're wrong. The worst spell check fail was when I typed "crocodilian" (to refer to any animal of the biological order Crocodilia), and Chrome told me it should have been "necrophiliac." !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  
  As far as some of the other mistakes, I'm not in the apprenticeship program, but I know I've found an occasional "thereis" or "thisis" in my articles months after they're published (and yes, I do proofread). I see that type of mistake occasionally in professionally published books and magazines as well. It's a simple mistake, but not at all uncommon. I think it's because our brains know what's supposed to be there, so we read it the correct way and may not notice the error.
  
  (And of course I found two mistakes in this post right after hitting "submit." Yes, I did proofread it, haha. I'm so thankful for "edit" buttons).
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  Steve Westposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks for the comment jenb0128. Now that I opened this can of worms I have to proofread even more because now I am going to make the same stupid mistakes I griped about, lol. I do the same thing you mentioned. Your brain knows what the word should be so it automatically sees it there and overlooks the squiggly. And you are also right about the squiggly, it isn't "all knowing". Maybe I'm just mad because I have to put more time into proofing than I do into writing the hub in the first place. And I still screw up! Thank you again!
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  wildernessposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  'I think it's because our brains know what's supposed to be there, so we read it the correct way and may not notice the error.'
  
  There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that this is correct; it's why I make a point of going back after a month and proofing again. By then the brain has "forgotten" the actual words intended and doesn't rely on memory, so catches more errors.
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  tillsontitanposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I think that is the main problem...our eyes see what our mind 'meant' not necessarily what is really there. We can read and re-read and yet we totally miss the obvious. When I was working I always asked someone else to proof read my work ... there were times, even after several people did the proof reading there was still a typo somewhere. I guess its the nature of the beast.
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  Cardisaposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  We have to remember that Google is British and HP is US, so most of the times we will get a conflict of spelling there.
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  Steve Westposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Interesting point, I was unaware of that. Thank you Cardisa I appreciate your time and your comment. I wonder if Google will ever be advanced enough to understand dialect? lol.
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  rebekahELLEposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  ? Google is headquartered in California.
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  Steve Westposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  That's what I thought.?
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  Steve Westposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  It has to be impossible to catch them all. If it was easy to write everyone would be doing it. Now I am not going to write for a while because what comes around goes around. I'll wind-up spelling kat wrong or something like that and then never live it down. You "a" hubbers are going to be after me to get stuff wrong....and I will! Lol. Thank you for your comment wilderness.
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  mbeatsbydrdreposted 11 years agoin reply to this
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  Steve Westposted 11 years agoin reply to this
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  Cardisaposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Just report it Steve, these people don't usually listen to reason. The more reports, the faster it will be dealt with.
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  moneyportunitiesposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Hello Steve,
  The spectrum of life includes everyone from the humble abode to the king's palace. There are hubbers here who can appreciate your ability to write at the level that you do.
  Meanwhile, we'd appreciate if you'd be patient with those who are not yet at your level.
  Nature, the Great Teacher constantly reminds us that the weak and the strong are permanently interdependent.
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Doodleheadposted 11 years ago
Time is going to cure this. The 'free market' will prevail. The strong will survive. As Google insists on de-ranking people the wheat and chaff will separate. It is happening after every Google algorithm change.

As people's previously successful hubs become "zzz" hubs only the finest writers will survive. I myself doubt if I will be one of them. Based upon simple statistics millions of people are better than I and in time the Hubs will either get better and better grammarwise or they will become so technical than only a guru can understand them in a tiny market niche and for them it won't matter.

Those who were successful here in the past have been knocked down due to various Google and Hubpage "policy changes" in rankings or algorithms or whatever.

Money is what Google wants, not necessarily what a good writer wants.
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Doodleheadposted 11 years ago
Time is going to cure this. The 'free market' will prevail. The strong will survive. As Google insists on de-ranking people the wheat and chaff will separate. It is happening after every Google algorithm change.

As people's previously successful hubs become "zzz" hubs only the finest writers will survive. I myself doubt if I will be one of them. Based upon simple statistics millions of people are better than I and in time the Hubs will either get better and better grammarwise or they will become so technical than only a guru can understand them in a tiny market niche and for them it won't matter.

Those who were successful here in the past have been knocked down due to various Google and Hubpage "policy changes" in rankings or algorithms or whatever.

Money is what Google wants, not necessarily what a good writer wants.
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  Wesley Meachamposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I think what you meant to say was... " they will become so technical [that] only a guru can understand" rather than "than."
  
  Normally I wouldn't point this out but you know in this thread it is a bit ironic.
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Millionaire Tipsposted 11 years ago
While I agree with you that spelling and grammar is very important, I feel the need to defend myself and my fellow apprentices and offer the following considerations.

1. We're apprentices. We are learning, and it is unfair to expect perfection from us.
2. The Apprentice program chooses people who already know how to write. They are not focused on teaching us how to write.
3. We are learning a lot - about how to find pictures that we are allowed to use, and now to attribute them correctly, how to find keywords, use capsules, etc. There is a lot to learn, and while we are learning about pictures, sometimes we may forget the basics we already know about spelling, etc.
4. We are required to write 8 hubs a month, using the things we have learned, participate in our community, etc. Especially if we are running late trying to get all 8 hubs published, we may miss some of these types of issues. I know that even when I proofread something I just wrote, I can miss errors, simply because I think I know what it says. It helps to look at things with fresh eyes.
5. There is more to writing than just spelling and grammar. Voice, content, functionality, aesthetics, SEO, etc., all matter.

Again, I do agree with you that we need to proofread our work, and watch for silly mistakes. I asked for a critique on some of my first hubs written in the program, and I was appalled by the number of errors that I had not caught. I know I regularly catch things when I reread my hubs. It would be great to have caught them before they were published, but I am human and can only do the best that I can do.
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  Millionaire Tipsposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  P.S. If you do catch any errors in my hubs, please feel free to tell me, and I will be happy to correct them. But do be nice about it; it was simply a mistake.
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  Wesley Meachamposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I agree with MT, and most of the others.
  
  I make a ton of mistakes. Someone once sent me an email about a mistake on my profile page and I was rather glad they did.
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Steve Westposted 11 years ago
Hi Millionaire Tips, Thank you for the reply. I understand completely that you, as an apprentice, have a ton of stuff to do. My point was about the very obvious mistakes. Comma splices and all the stuff I don't understand are not what I'm talking about. I make a TON of mistakes all of the time. It was only the really obvious mistakes I was referring to. For example "theywent" and "thisis" were just two of several I found last night. I am not trying to mock or hurt anyone's feelings. I was only suggesting a better proofreading system for some of the "a" hubs I've read. Thanks again for the reply Millionaire Tips.
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  mattforteposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  This is a problem that often happens when importing text from Wordpress into capsules. A simple copy/paste and things get effed up - dunno why. I had such an issue with this I refused to use that method again. However, some people have difficulty writing a fluid article using the capsules, so a Word -=> HP conversion is necessary..and not their fault...with so many errors that pop up because of that, they are *going* to miss some.
  That said, typos like that are easy to miss. Just a couple months ago I found some obvious errors on a hub I'd written and proofread while in the Apprenticeship program. My girlfriend (Who went to school for this) proofread it and missed them, my mentor and fellow apprentices read it and missed them. They may stand out to you at the time, but I'd bet money you've read right past other identical typos in the past and didn't notice...that's just how the brain works, it can parse out that information.
  
  So, try not to be so harsh. They're there to learn other, more important things. Having a hub that says "thereis" somewhere in it will not diminish Google rankings whatsoever, nor will it ever have any bearing on their earnings. Worst case scenario somebody makes fun of them and links their article giving them free hits and a backlink.
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tamronposted 11 years ago
I use Gingerit and afterthedeadline for Firefox. Although they don't pick out every mistake they snuff out the obvious. I recommend using both! Afterthedeadline is more for grammar structure. Ginger it is best for misuse of words. Both for spelling! If you really want the best result use grammarly. Use all 3 before you publish and thats as close to perfection you'll ever get.

Even after using all that proofread just to be sure they are not perfect by no means.
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  Steve Westposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I am scared to use Grammarly. I tried it once and it found more errors than I had words on the page. My strength is usually spelling. Grammar.....not so goodly. I didn't want everyone to think I was looking for perfection 100% because it will not happen. I was merely pointing out some mistakes that seemed extreme to me coming from an apprentice, someone I would like to emulate.
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Steve Westposted 11 years ago
I had to go back to the hub that started this whole discussion just to clarify why I brought this up in a forum in the first place. The hub I wrote about was written by an apprentice hubber with a current score of 95. The hubber has been writing on HubPages for over a year. The hub was also a "hub of the day" award winner just recently. With that being said one would expect a certain level of precision, not perfection, precision.
In the first paragraph of approximately 50 words this is what you will see in spelling errors alone. Forget about grammar for now I am not good enough with grammar to critique it.

1) wonstantly- should be constantly
2) thenight- no space
3) lng term- long term
4) prescption- prescription
5) sideeffects- no space
6) presciption- prescription

Hub of the Day, really? Yes, the article had good information, pictures, and page-breaks making it a good looking hub. However, how could one expect a person with reasonable intelligence to give this hub any reliability when the first paragraph has 12% of its words spelled incorrectly. This was my only point. I only scanned the rest of the hub.
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  SimeyCposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Legitimate question - I'm not picking on you, just interested.
  
  As someone who reads articles do you differentiate between obvious typos and spelling mistakes?
  
  If I see a typo in an article I think 'learn to type' and continue to read. Sure it’s careless, but is a symptom of not taking time rather than being uneducated.
  
  If I see misuse of there, their or they're or constant poor spelling then it loses credibility for me…
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  IzzyMposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  A quick Google search easily brings up the hub you mention here, and yes I totally agree with you. Reading the summaries of this person's other hubs shows the same type of glaring errors.
  
  While I appreciate typos are easy to make and even harder to spot, I thought the apprentices mentored each other?
  No-one noticed or thought to point out these errors?
  
  Hub of the Day? LOL, that's a joke, judging by some of the ones I have read.
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  SimeyCposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not sure what's going on in other groups, but our group does quite a lot of feedback and tends to pick up a lot of these types of errors - however even within our group some people don't have time to ask for proof-readers or critiques so it ends up being a small group who are helping each other.
  
  Additionally, as someone pointed out though, there's a lot of work involved being in the apprenticeship and sadly there will be the odd poor hub slip through even if it has been peer reviewed.
  
  I've probably read about 300 apprenticeship hubs over the last month or two and where I can I will pass on typos etc. - from my own personal perspective, I've been told of some typos in my hubs, but with a full time job, multiple hubs to read and write and general life happening it's actually very difficult to go back and amend these hubs.
  
  I admit that this one is glaring - and should have been 'corrected' prior to being HOTD - overall I would say the general quality of 'a' hubs are good – there are obviously non-apprentice writers who constantly produce better hubs.
  
  The key for me, and I believe it’s the whole point of the apprenticeship, if you look at the hubs of many ‘a’ prior to the training sessions, the improvement is pretty marked in most of the cases – so as long as there is a lot of improvement, and generally the quality has increased then the scheme is doing what it set out to do.
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  Mark Ewbieposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Yep. I agree with this. People make spelling mistakes, punctuation and typos - I do all those and I can't fathom apostrophes. Sometimes I visit an old hub and there are mistakes that have been there for a year or more.
  
  In my opinion a HOTD should be the best HP has to offer. Otherwise what is it saying? Can't write, can't edit - join HP?
  
  I would hope for apprentices to be picked up on any typos, etc. and taught the value of editing. It's not just about picture captioning.
  
  No prizes for looking at my hubs and finding plenty of howlers.
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  Thalliaposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I also noticed that particular "Hub of the Day". It was quite disappointing to see the obvious spelling errors in that hub.
  
  How embarrassing.
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  Cardisaposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Whew, it's not my hub...lol...was worried there. I am so guilty of many mistakes but not this time. Those errors are easily picked up by HP spell checker which I have begun to use, I use to just use Open Office but I have found that they aren't so good at picking up mistakes.
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SmartAndFunposted 11 years ago
I could be wrong, but I do not believe the apprentices are not chosen for their perfect command of grammar, spelling and punctuation. They are chosen for their promise across the board: dedication, profitability, a good degree of HP writing activity, as well as writing skills and probably some other factors I am unaware of.

If you are appalled and embarrassed to be associated with HP because you are finding spelling and grammar mistakes, then I take it you haven't seen any of the hilarious spun spam or the crudely written articles from people who don't speak English. There is some pretty crazy stuff here. Spelling and punctuation are the least of it.
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  Steve Westposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Good morning SmartAndFun. I laughed out loud when you mentioned non-English speaking folks. I attend college with many of them and they write like they talk, broken. You would kind of expect that to some degree however. Thank you for your comment.
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  SmartAndFunposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, you're right, and I do expect someone's writing and speaking to be broken if they are not fluent in English. I would never hold someone's language inabilities against them. However, articles on HP are supposed to be written in -- at least mostly, lol -- correct and fluent English. The point I was trying to make is that perhaps the spam and truly poorly written, broken-sounding stuff is what you should be embarrassed about and appalled at. The errors on these types of hubs are far more egregious than a few typos, spelling mistakes or misplaced commas, IMHO. There are masses of these articles on HP and they bring all of us down in the eyes of big G.
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EmpressFelicityposted 11 years ago
"If I see misuse of there, their or they're or constant poor spelling then it loses credibility for me…"

^^^^^This. I'm guessing here but I think the apprentice program may like a lot of group efforts, i.e. nobody in the group is actually prepared to be the first one to say something critical.

In this case, nobody is prepared to come out and say "Your hub looks nice, but your spelling needs a lot of work."
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  SimeyCposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Where possible, and within smaller groups we do tell each other about spelling mistakes and grammatical errors - we can be quite pedantic - however, there are time constraints - you know, real life and all that!
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  denisemaiposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Hi, empressFelicity. (Cool name.) I'm in the same group as SimeyC and Wilderness and in a group that includes teachers, professional editors and many detail oriented people, nobody is unprepared to say something critical. Not everyone participates in the forums but those who do get a good look from their peers and it's been very helpful. Nobody is perfect and, after reading several hubs we can miss things, but we all get a lot better with those extra sets of eyes. We don't edit other writers' "writing voice" as each has their own style but typos and basic grammar certainly get addressed.
  
  In response to your guess, I'll just say that personally, if the errors are so overwhelming that I don't feel like taking an entire day to edit, I'll make a comment like, "I saw a lot of sentence fragments and comma splices. You may want to go over the entire hub again." Otherwise, I'll copy and paste the offending text into the forum and offer corrections. Like Simey, I'm not sure how other groups operate, but our group is pretty active with the editing. There are many, however, who have these things called "full-time jobs" that often interfere with their hubbing. I'm sure several apprentices fit into that category and it makes it more difficult to give and receive feedback.
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Millionaire Tipsposted 11 years ago
Have you read all (or any) of the forum posts about the proposed HubPages functionality to let people know of these types of errors? Many people said they don't like being criticized, and other people wondered about the qualifications of the person doing the correcting.

I find that a lot of people are very sensitive, and take any notification of even a minor error to mean that they are horrible writers. For this reason, I think very carefully before suggesting to anyone that they should correct anything. Even for the apprentice program, the only hubs I critique are the ones that I have been asked to critique. Besides, we don't really have the time to critique each and every hub that has been written in the program by our team members.

From the critiques we did do, I have learned that all of us need to spend more time simply proofreading our own hubs, maybe even asking someone else to do it. Unfortunately, we don't get paid enough to pay for this type of service. We do all need to be more careful, and your point is well taken. I know I spend more time proofing my hubs since I joined the program, but I know that I need to do even more. I have a tendency to make new mistakes as I correct some other mistake.
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  Robie Benveposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Being an apprentice, I read this thread with high interest. Being born and raised Italian, I'm particularly sensitive to the subject, because I’m always afraid of making blatant stupid mistakes and not being able to recognize them.
  I would hope that if someone sees obvious errors in my hubs, I’d get a message about it. As long as it’s not a mean message, I always welcome feedback. : )
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Dame Scribeposted 11 years ago
Good gawd I aced English through every grade in school and I'm still not perfect. It gets annoying to see mistakes, maybe one after the other, but lack of forgiveness really isn't a pretty quality either. Not everybody is perfect or ever will be it just doesn't exist.
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Steve Westposted 11 years ago
Wow, I guess I sure know how to get folks fired-up. This was not my intention. Even my hubber score went down two points since I posted this "hub of the day" spelling concern. I must have made the algorithm mad too. Ooops. I do appreciate those of you who agree with my observation and commented in my defense, thank you. That is all it was, an observation. Next time I will keep my fingers shut. I have been proud to write for and refer people to HubPages for quality information. In that regard I will keep my mouth shut too.
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  SimeyCposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You have a right to express your concerns and this is an important discussion that has two sides. Some of us tried to defend the 'a' scheme and explain that it's not there to make perfect writers - I also agree that most writers 'a' or otherwise should be able to proof read their own hubs.
  
  If you go through all of the Hubs of the Day ("a" or not) I'm sure you'll find a lot of errors - not many of us on here are professional writers, so grammar, spelling, voice etc. will never be perfect - generally though, the content in a HOTD is very good - the one you point out should have been vetted better and perhaps if those silly errors had been caught then it may have been a worthy hub....
  
  ....the aim of the "a" is to improve writers in all aspects of hub design - some start the program as good writers, some don't - while they may not improve their writing skills much, their overall hub quality does rise....
  
  I apologize if I seemed to be attacking you - that was never my intention...
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  Steve Westposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you SimeyC, I don't blame you at all for defending your fellow "a", I would do the very same. And I don't feel you were attacking me so no worries. I am totally new at writing, hard to believe for a 42 year-old but it's the truth. When I started with HubPages I was under the impression spelling and grammar would make or break you here. I try so hard not to make mistakes however impossible it is. The embarrassment I felt when I read the HOTD in question was not just personal, it was for the entire site and all of us who put a lot of hard work and time into making HubPages look credible. The hub that young man wrote was good and still is. It just needed someone to love it and groom it just a bit better. Thanks again SimeyC, no apology was necessary however it was appreciated. As for my hubber score going down today.....now that's an attack! lol read ya' later.
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  SimeyCposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Spelling and Grammar will differentiate you from the rest of us rabble! So keep on writing and learning! As for the hubber score - don't take it personal, it has a will of its own! My fluctuates wildly over the course of a day, strangely in co-ordination with my mood!!!
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  Word Poolsposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  No, don't feel bad for bringing this up. This is an important topic, and hopefully we can all be reminded that we need to proof our hubs more carefully before publishing.
  
  I do think that when a hub is recommended, whoever is recommending it, should let the Hubber know of any errors they spot, so at least the glaring mistakes aren't on the front page. In fact, I think we should help each other out and tell people of mistakes. But we do need to be careful not to become grammar Nazis and scare people from writing at all.
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  Steve Westposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you Word Pools. I noticed the hub in question has now been revised and it looks great just as it did before. I didn't want to hurt the feelings of the young man because it truly is a good hub. The density of errors was just too great. I bet everyone, including me especially are proofing once or twice extra. I am a little bit nervous to write now for fear of mistakes so I'm going to take a break and let the dust settle. Thanks again for your comment.
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  summerberrieposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Agreed. Thanks Steve West for raising the topic. I know I am going to be much more careful with my hubs before I hit the publish button. I really want to publish polished well written hubs. Yes,people do make mistakes, but if made consistently then one is at risk of losing credibility. So thanks Steve for the reminder and welcome to hubpages. I see you are from Myrtle Beach. It would be nice to read some travel hubs from someone who lives there.....
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  Steve Westposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I will write a hub today about travel to Myrtle Beach, just for you. However, I will be proofreading it until August 2016. Thank you summerberrie
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  summerberrieposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  It's okay. If you make a mistake, it will be quickly pointed out. Fix it and move on. You will be better for the wear. I would rather read the hub sooner than later
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  Steve Westposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Your Myrtle Beach hub idea for me to do is done. Let me know if you like it and please don't be too hard on my grammar and stuff.
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  janderson99posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Hey Its in orbit, going round and round - you may have to give us the link - suitably cloa ked
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  Steve Westposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  http://stevewest.hubpages.com/video/A-S … h-Vacation
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  janderson99posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Hey Mate!
  Looks absolutely Fab to me - Its a you beaut bottler!
  A couple of quickies
  => add an amazon capsule - there are a few books
  => use groups to get your other related hubs on the page.
  => Add a text capsule with a few related links to your other pages (interlinking)
  => I'd be careful with the Part2 Title to make it sufficiently different. Google frowns on parts and series now.
  => Being a bit picky - I thing you missed a space at the end of a sentence in the Ist para - I would suggest not using MB abbreviations. Also is "shoppes" (many) intended or should it be 'shops'
  
  Cheers,
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  Steve Westposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I can't find the space you"thing" I missed, please elaborate.
  Many shoppes.
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  janderson99posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  as to why.The sun,
  ----------/\
  very naughty!
  
  Is 'shoppes' a common word? 'many' means you have used it many times. my dumb spell checker picks it up but its in the dictionary.
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  janderson99posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Steve, Its almost 'Stellar' - all you need is a quiz and a table + a 'partridge in a pear tree' !
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  Steve Westposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  LOL, thank you for all of your advice janderson99. I am not changing my new avatar and profile unless they make me. I like it a lot!
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  janderson99posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  No worries, Best Wishes, Sorry to be a pain!
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Mark Ewbieposted 11 years ago
Hey Steve, it's a fairly regular observation. People have a right to express it and equally others have their own rights too.
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rebekahELLEposted 11 years ago
I think the OP's observation is a valid one, especially with the errors of the hub he pointed out (which I could not find with a quick Google search..). I think it's a lot of work, and probably a lot of pressure to get hubs done on a deadline. I would think there is more emphasis on making sure the hubs produced are error free before publishing.
Hubs of the Day, IMO, should be error free, not just a good read or a well- formatted hub. I agree that none of us are perfect writers, but a hub chosen to showcase the site should be the best. Maybe that's not the criteria for selection? Maybe it's more about being a search friendly, trending topic? I think teaches12345's HOTD (today) is done very well. It's a seasonal, trending topic.
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  Steve Westposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you rebekahELLE, you might just be right. The topic and content of the hub I pointed out was very good, and thorough. With only a couple of mistakes in the entire hub it would have been HOTD material. Maybe the "a's" will try and help each other out a little bit better after this. Thanks again for commenting.
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  denisemaiposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Man, I wish I knew which hub started this whole discussion. LOL My curiosity is killing me! I agree that the HOTD should be a good example of Hubpages writing quality. Also, I'm extremely envious of all of the writers who have received the award. I'm betting they get a nice traffic spike along with those bragging rights.
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  Steve Westposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Hello denisemai thank you for your input. The hub in question has been repaired and it looks great. I am also curious as to how many extra hits you get when you have a HOTD. Thanks again for the comment. Have a great weekend!
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  denisemaiposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Bahahahaha! Oh. Sorry. I have never, ever, ever had a HOTD. I sure would like to, though. I need the extra traffic! In my imagination, the HOTD gets loads of traffic but, if you can find Judi Bee's response in this muck, you will find that she has had it three times and she said one of hers went idle so--probably not the magic I was hoping for. Like she says, it's an internal thing. What really matters is searchability on Google and other search engines. I keep writing what I think is good content and cross my fingers that the search engines agree. Hey. Where's your new article?
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  Judi Beeposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Denise - I didn't word my reply well. I've had three HOTD, none of which I would consider my best piece of writing. It's my best piece of writing (NOT a HOTD) that I deleted when it went idle. However, my best traffic doesn't come from any of those three HOTDs - of course there's an initial surge when Hubbers read it, but then it's gone.
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lrohnerposted 11 years ago
Steve - Seriously, you just need to stop this thread right now. Your grammar/punctuation is so horrific, I find it insulting that you would critique anyone else.
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  Steve Westposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you for your comment Irohner, you are absolutely correct about my grammar and punctuation and if you read all of my posts I admit that fact. However, my hubs do not represent the entire site as HOTD. I did not critique the hub, I pointed out blatant spelling errors in the first paragraph. I am only an 89 hubber score and in my opinion that means I suck at writing. Again, thank you for taking the time to leave your insightful and meaningful comment.
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Faith Reaperposted 11 years ago
Well, I will say that I have found terrible spelling and grammar mistakes in my hubs, even after having proofed the hubs. There is really no excuse, even though I work all day in the city and have an hour commute to work both ways, that really should not come into play. I really just need to slow down and take my time in publishing to make sure it is my best. I write late at night into the wee hours of the morning, and my eyes suffer with eye strain and everything gets blurry. Then I am back up at 5:00 a.m. again. Still, this is no excuse. Therefore, I have learned to wait until the next morning, or even a couple of days, to proof again and then actually publish. During the "pending" time period, I still find errors. I have decided to take another's advice and allow a friend or someone with great writing skills, etc. to proof and/or suggest edits after I have proofed several times, just to make sure. I do not want any blatant mistakes showing up on a published hub. Even when commenting, and I am speaking of myself, as I will get in such a hurry to try to comment on as many hubs as I can, I find mistakes all the time. However, I am trying to slow that down a lot too for these stated reasons. When I go back and see one of my comments with typos, incorrect spelling or grammar, it is not a good feeling, as this is a place for writers. Of course we are all bound to make mistakes, many even. The one thing that really does get to me are the hubbers whose scores are seemingly in the mid to upper 90 range, and their writing is actually written in broken English. But then I think in their cases, their traffic flow may be a lot higher as being here for a good while and considering the implementation of SEO and google-friendly key words, etc. I think they should be held to the same standard as all others (the broken English), but sometimes it seems, and it may very well just be perception, that they are overlooked due to other reasons, as there are obvious errors in many, many hubs. However, I hope that is not the case. Plus some jump from paragraph to paragraph in a hub without staying on subject, but I guess that is another subject for another day. Just today, someone responded to my answer and the hubber said "your right" and it just jumped off the page at me, in lieu of "you're right." This hubber is very popular and always has a high score, but I see constant typos in all of this hubber's hubs. This tells me the typos and grammar mistakes alone certainly are not reflective of one's score. I am sure there are some right here in this post, and I have read it a couple of times. I am not under a lot of pressure as those who are required to write so many hubs in a required time period, as I do not write in an attempt to make money at this date. I am just attempting to find out if people want to read what I like to write, and then I will decide at a later date. Maybe that time will come when I am able to spend most of my time dedicated to writing, which may be in a couple of years or so. It would not bother me at all if someone emailed me and pointed something out to me. However, I do not think it should be done while commenting on a hub.
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  Steve Westposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Good morning Faith Reaper as you can see I have ruffled the feathers of a few people for mentioning a sub-standard hub recognized as a HOTD.
  Errors and mistakes are so common, however some more than others and I felt it necessary to bring this one up. I am a full-time engineering/project management student and when I turn in papers to the professors the papers come back with corrections, feedback, and a grade. No do good work, no getty good grade lol. Only now are fellow hubbers scrutinizing my writing which I admit is not perfect either. My point was as others have stated, the HOTD should be flawless and the best HubPages has to offer. Thank you for your comment Faith Reaper.
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SimeyCposted 11 years ago
Steve I think that if you had titled the thread "Spelling and grammar for HOTD" rather than "Spelling and grammar for apprentices" then you would have ruffled less feathers. You make valid points.... buy it's the HOTD program that should be perfect, not apprentices....
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  Steve Westposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Good point. Is there a way to change it?(the title)
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  SimeyCposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Probably not....but I think you made it clear that you were more concerned with the HOTD rather than the 'a' writers - so that should be OK!
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  Steve Westposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You are absolutely right! With that being said I apologize to any "a" writers offended by my concern of a HOTD representing the entire site. I was taking HubPages a little bit more seriously than I should have. I will "chill-out" and not be so critical about the "a" writers. Ironically enough I signed up for the program two weeks ago.Thanks again SimeyC
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frogdroppingposted 11 years ago
What's the big hoohaa? People don't always look over their work before hitting publish.

A spelling mistake (etc) is one thing - badly written work is another. I think there's a difference. Laziness also comes into it. We're all capable of getting 'it' wrong. I don't mind a typo, a bit of out of place grammar. However tardiness in type is different.

And why are folks getting their panties in a bunch? I fail to see why there's any offence to be taken. I've written so many articles over the last few years, I 100% guarantee I've made mistakes. I'm not in the least bit offended.

And what the heck is going on with the forum font? It's horrible.
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  Steve Westposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Great change of subject frogdropping. I needed that. I will start a forum on font type later today, maybe it will distract everyone from this forum topic. Thank you for commenting on this thread.
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IzzyMposted 11 years ago
Steve, could you go back to the post in this thread where you quoted a spammer, and delete it? You need to be fairly quick at this point. The 'edit' function for forum posts (bottom right of posts you made) is not there for long.

You have quoted his removed links, but leaving them live gives him very nice backlinks and are best removed.
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  Steve Westposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I went to post and it reads DELETED. What else should I do?
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  IzzyMposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I am still seeing it. The one where you say the post belongs in a newspaper? Page 3.
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  Steve Westposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Yes the avatar is still there however below it reads deleted and there is no way for me to get it off, no delete or edit buttons are visible. I went to his profile page and it also read "USER BANNED". Now what should I do?
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  Steve Westposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I got it. I deleted both of my posts below it. Anything else I should do?
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Natashalhposted 11 years ago
Just to let everyone know so it doesn't start the apprentices can't spell argument all over again - Exclusive titles cannot be changed by the hubber. I have a newly published Exclusive hub with a typo in the title. Evidently that's what people are searching for, but it doesn't make it the correct word. I am fully aware of it and have asked the powers that be to fix the typo for me, since I can't, myself. So please don't freak out, folks!
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  Cardisaposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Can't it be edited after you have published the hub? I think the option should remain to edit the title even if it's exclusive.
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  Natashalhposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  No, you can't edit it yourself. A yellow label saying 'Exclusive' takes the place of the 'edit' tag for the title when you edit an Exclusive.
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Dame Scribeposted 11 years ago
I always thought HOTD got featured due to votes? is it possible that a 'poor' Hub got inflated votes?
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  SmartAndFunposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I don't think so. I believe that thay are "plain and simple" chosen by staff. Gotta catch their eye somehow.
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  WriteAngledposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Which begs the question of the fairness of the choices. Can a couple of staff members really monitor the output of 140,000+ authors and choose the best?
  
  You do think, however, they would apply some quality criteria to their selected pets.
  
  I checked out one of the "hubs of the day". The grammar and spelling were abysmal and the content was regurgitated rubbish already available on tens of thousands of other web sites.
  
  An apprentice was responsible for this stuff, which makes me suspect apprentices are being favoured even when they have no skills or knowledge whatsoever.
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  Cardisaposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Maybe there needs to be a better way to choose. These staff members have so many hubs to go through that they are going to miss some of these mistakes and some hubs that deserve to be HOTD will definitely get left behind.
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SmartAndFunposted 11 years ago
It seems like lately, most HOTD's are written by apprentices. I guess these hubs are catching the staff's attention because staff personnel are monitoring apprentices. The one of mine that was chosen HOTD was before the apprentice program was started. It was an answer to a weekly topic inspiration, so I guess that is how it came to have a light shining on it.
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  IzzyMposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  LOL, so you're one of them!
  
  I confess to hardly ever looking at the HOTD. It seems to be the same names time after time. Pets is indeed a good word for them
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  SmartAndFunposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I had a HOTD many months ago. I am not in the apprentice program.
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  IzzyMposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah I know - just winding you up
  
  Looking at hubs > latest, I see quite a few apprentices are getting instant featuring.
  
  Now that is pissing me off big time. How come some are getting this, and the rest of us aren't?
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  janderson99posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Same applies to the new topic and sub-topic pages - high proportion of 'a' s are featured - good luck to them, but for fairness and transparency, the criteria or algo used to rank the articles should be published. With the new layout if you are not on page 1, you will never be seen. Why not let everyone know! If HP gives priority to 'a's as part of the deal then everyone should know about it. HP can do what they like, but they should be transparent about what they do. A search facility within topics would be a good idea to give everyone a go - even a Google style internal search one.
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  wordscribe43posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I've read the apprenticeship program sticks to the format featured here: http://hubpages.com/learningcenter/Elem … tellar-Hub
  
  If I had to venture a guess, the featured hubs algorithm incorporates the components they've deemed as stellar hubs. I do believe that's why they end up getting featured. Just a suspicion on my part.
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  janderson99posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Nope! - most of featured hubs are not stellar - even the 'a' ones. It would be nice to know precisely rather than having to guess. It is important - why not publish the criteria so we all know!!!!
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  janderson99posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Last time I looked at
  => Baby Clothes and Children's Clothing
  3 authors had 3, 3 and 2 articles in the top 20 - seems a bit unfair!
  => Diet and Weight Loss
  one writer has 3 in the top 20
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  wordscribe43posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  The link I provided outlines what they coin "stellar hubs" (their words, not mine!). I'm not saying the hubs are necessarily stellar, phenomenal, spectacular or DA BOMB, but perhaps they've satisfied certain components in their "featured" algorithm. See what I'm saying? Like: number of original pictures, tables, word count, videos, quiz capsules, etc... That may be PART of why they're featured.
  
  I think Rebekah is onto something though (see her post above). Participating in certain programs must create added exposure.
  
  As for HOTDs, It must be some work finding them every day. So, it's not so surprising you'll see quite a few WTIs and Apprentice hubs in the mix. It probably a mix of a perk AND ease of finding for staff. I've had three or four HOTDs- two or three of them were from WTI. Were they spectacular? I don't know... but they incorporated a lot of their "stellar hub" components. See what I'm saying?
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  janderson99posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  What I mean was that most of the featured hubs in the topics do not meet the criteria specified for the "Stellar Hubs', so this is not the formula that is applied. I would just like to know the formula to see if my hubs get a chance. Not an unreasonable request surely - why is it a secret? Why do we have to guess? It is an important part of participating in the community of writers on HP. It does help to get traffic so it should be transparent and fair to everyone to know how the ranks are determined.
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  wordscribe43posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Ahhh... gotcha. I will have to look at the featured hubs a bit more carefully. Perhaps it's traffic? Number of comments? idk
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  Natashalhposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  They do actually say WTI hubs are far more likely to be chosen as HOTD. Furthermore, apprentices are encouraged to write WTI hubs. If you would really like to be featured, write more WTI pieces to increase your chances of being selected.
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  wordscribe43posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah, that makes sense...
  
  I don't know, I just wanted to chime in for a second. I may be way off the mark, but I sometimes feel like the apprentices get picked on. I'm sure I'm gonna "hear about" saying that, but... I've seen little comments here and there that didn't sit well with me. I'm not implicating anyone in this thread, actually. I've seen a few thread comments and hub comments that take stabs at the "a" status and I just don't get it.
  
  It's a voluntary program for people who WANT to learn. My hat's off to them- it takes a lot of commitment and time to participate. I don't want to sound all Pollyanna, but I think we should encourage them. There just seems to be a lot of "us versus them" mentality on HP... not only with the apprentices, but also with the elite. I guess I'm sick of it by now.
  
  I am sure I'm setting myself up here, but so be it. Fire away!
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  Steve Westposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  What is "WTI"? Not to sound dumb but I can't figure it out.
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  wordscribe43posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Weekly Topic Inspiration
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  Steve Westposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you wordscribe43, got it.
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  wordscribe43posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You betcha...
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  SmartAndFunposted 11 years agoin reply to this
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  Natashalhposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I am an apprentice and I've never had a HOTD, so it isn't a ticket to getting featured.
  
  Also, maybe you see a high number of apprentices being featured in the latest section because there are now quite a few apprentices (including two 'graduated' groups) and they are required to write at least 8 hubs a month. With 30 apprentices in each group writing an average of at least 2 a week, that is a good number of hubs! No wonder many of them end up in the 'latest' category.
  
  If everyone is so convinced being an apprentice grants you special privelages, why don't you apply? If we are all incompetents, it should be exceptionally easy for you to beat out the competition and secure the fame and fortune for yourself.
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rebekahELLEposted 11 years ago
Hi WS! I think it's simply a perk of being in the program. I remember when it was first started, it was mentioned that apprentices receive added benefits of exposure.

I have noticed that in the special programs that HP promotes. I hope it never gets to the point where long term writers are ignored and set aside. I noticed with the new topic layout pages that older, and some of the best hubs are now buried, with more recent hubs on the first page. I also miss not seeing featured members of those following specific topics.

I think this is a great idea. Search would be helpful on profiles and topic pages.
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SimeyCposted 11 years ago
as an apprentice I appreciate your kind words. I personally feel that there seems to be an attack on the 'a' team - simply because we wanted to learn (as you said) - it's getting to the point where I almost want to drop out so I don't get the stigma of being an apprentice alumni - however I'm not going to.

The whole point of the program is to teach how to create better hubs, get more traffic and ultimately benefit the whole of Hubpages - if there's a perceived favoritism then there's nothing I can do about that.

I note that before the 'a' there were many hubbers who constantly were featured - was I jealous? probably? What did I do? I went to their hubs and tried to work out why they were featured - 99% of the time it was because they produce superb hubs. I'm not saying that the 'a' team produce brilliant hubs all of the time - but they produce far better hubs than when they entered the program and that has to be a good thing.

Thanks for sticking your neck out and supporting us....
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  wordscribe43posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You are welcome... I feel sad about the division, really. It's nonsensical to me.
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IzzyMposted 11 years ago
I support the idea of apprenticeships, as it allows many folk the chance to learn how to write for the search engines.

I dislike the divisiveness it has caused amongst us, but that is there now, and there is nothing I can do to change it.
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  wordscribe43posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I hear what you're saying, Izzy. But, perhaps collectively we could all just give 'em a break... A little goes a long way, that's all I'm saying.
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rebekahELLEposted 11 years ago
Of course they do. HP is a business and what better way to increase productivity than having weekly topics, special programs, contests, which require or inspire frequent publishing. Topics are generally high traffic, trending topics.
There is a part of me which understands, and another part of me that wonders if too many articles coming from the same root domain on the same topic could be causing problems for some. Obviously, only some of them will reach a decent position in search. If those participating are benefiting from the experiences, than it seems to be a good move. And yet I have read that a number of frequent publishers are suffering with significant traffic loss.
But I'm also one that understands that people come here for different reasons and focus, and should be able to participate as they wish. HP, as a business, will do what they feel is best for their bottom line. I like HP and enjoy being here. My traffic is doing fine, and I'm happy to have the platform to publish what I want.
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WriteAngledposted 11 years ago
Funny how some people immediately jump up and start hurling accusations of jealousy when anyone dares examine apprentice output.

The main problem is that any content on here, which is given special treatment and highlighted everywhere, impacts on all of us.

If I reach a web site via a page, which not only features poorly written, ungrammatical and unoriginal content, but praises this as being the best of what the site has to offer, I am unlikely to explore further.

We are all tarnished each time poor content is chosen as HOTD.

Secondly, if people join a scheme that plasters a huge badge all over their avatar, they should not be surprised if their work comes under extra scrutiny. All the more so, since the rest of us are being positively encouraged by HP administration to look at apprentice work as an example of what is wanted here.

According to the description provided by HP staff, apprentices are supposedly only selected if they already possess a basic grasp of English:

"This means that, when reviewing applicants, we will be looking for a consistent stream of newly-published Hubs and/or an already existing blog, website, or collection of published online work. We will be reviewing this work for proper grammar and punctuation, as strong writing skills are essential for success, and the Apprenticeship Program does not cover basic writing skills" (in the help files blurb on the apprentice scheme)

However, looking at some apprentice output, it seems to me that this basic criterion has either been abandoned in the selection process or lost in training.
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Judi Beeposted 11 years ago
Agreed. It's funny how some people immediately jump up and start hurling accusations.
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WriteAngledposted 11 years ago
I am stating facts.

I looked at ten apprentice hubs selected at random from the HOTD archive. Of these, eight (80%) contained grammatical errors. Seven of the eight hubs contained three or more errors.

I also noted a number of stylistic fails in these hubs. The prize goes to a sentence starting with "And" and containing 47 words.

We are told that an HOTD is "exemplary" and that, “Staff are looking for Hubs that contain interesting and useful subject matter, high-quality and grammatically correct writing, and beautiful formatting.”
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  SimeyCposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I can point to several errors in most people's writing on Hubpages; there's only a small percentage that have perfect English and excellent grammar. As I am not an English major and do not work in the literature field I understand that my writing will never be perfect, my style will be poor and I will make grammatical errors that a word processor will not catch - but I'm willing to learn as are all the apprentices.
  
  This argument becomes an us against them because we choose it to be; if you truly want to help them then offer your services to Hubpages and become a mentor in one of the Apprentice programs I'm not being sarcastic - if the senior members stepped up and became mentors and provided that additional level of mentoring then the site would improve. If you can’t do that, then take one of the more promising 'a' writers and offer to work with them to improve their English.
  
  Working together and helping each other is the only way the site will improve. Worrying about certain labels will do nothing to change the fact that they exist and will not change the results that these schemes produce. The aim of the ‘a’ scheme is to improve the quality of hubs, and if you take a look at a lot of the ‘a’ hubs they are far better than the writers used to produce – they are not perfect – in any field an apprentice will work for years before being considered a journeyman, and many more years to become an expert, so why do you expect an apprentice scheme on Hubpages to turn out experts? It’s only the start of the process…
  
  I challenge every doubter on here to take on one apprentice whose willing and help them achieve the quality you expect….
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  Judi Beeposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  If you're going to use "fail" as a noun rather than a verb, perhaps others find it acceptable these days to use a conjunction at the beginning of a sentence.
  
  And another thing (sorry, couldn't help myself) ... when I signed up for the AP there was no "a" plastered all over my avatar. The badge came about during my time on the AP, so I had imagined that I would be able to skulk about in badly spelled and grammatically incorrect anonymity.
  
  Sorry, I'm being facetious
  
  All the points raised about the HOTD are valid and of course deserve to be debated. What isn't helpful is name calling (not by you WA).
  
  Anyway, I'm off to read some war diaries in preparation for my latest regurgitation of ill thought out and poorly executed nonsense
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  WriteAngledposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I used fail as a noun in the same populist way that it is used by thousands (as in "an epic fail") in an informal message posted on a forum.
  
  I consider forums to be an appropriate place for slang and other types of informal usage. I would not use any such forms in an article, except in very rare and justified cases.
  
  Besides, as a plain unadorned participant, I do not need to worry about my writing on this site being exemplary or otherwise, as this will not make a scrap of difference to how I fare here.
  
  I also want to point out that I purposely chose to look at a number of random HOTDs from the archive and have not given examples of what I found. My intention is not to embarrass or belittle any specific individual through identifying specific hubs, but to draw attention to the very negative consequences of HP's current policies of favouring apprentice work to an inordinate degree.
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  wildernessposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  "I would not use any such forms in an article, except in very rare and justified cases. "
  
  Do you not, then, wrote for the audience you wish to attract? Or is your audience all English majors?
  
  I very often use trade slang in my articles as I am writing to a particular audience that uses and understands it. I feel it improves my "authority" to use the same language they do as well as improve understanding. I will even, on rare occasions, use improper grammar because that is what I hear from my audience. It is the language they use and if I wish to be understood it is best that I speak their language, not require that they learn mine. Or so I see it.
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  denisemaiposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Hi, there. Wilderness--you are kind of following my line of thinking. It's important for all writers to consider who they are writing for and to "speak" to them in a way that will engage those readers. I understand completely what WriteAngled is saying and I agree that a 47 word sentence beginning with the word "and" is neither engaging nor gramatically correct. I do want to say, however, that I, personally, think intentionally breaking a rule here and there for effect is perfectly acceptable.
  
  If you look at successful writers and novelists, you will see them do that all of the time. The last thing we want to do is produce writing that is without flaws but dry as toast. Certainly there are exceptions. Most college textbooks are written with flawless grammar. They are also incredibly boring. (My theory is they are testing students to see how bad they want that degree.)
  
  EmpressFelicity (still in love with that pen name), I agree with you and disagree. It seems that this forum has drawn an imaginary line in the sand with an "us versus them" mentality and has begun to digress. Calling the Apprenticeship Program a "scheme" and feeling resentful about this "elite" designation (which I've never heard of but what's new?) is adding to the devisiveness. Here's the thing--if any of you think the Apprentices get unfair advantages, there is a solution. Apply to the Apprenticeship program yourself. You will then have access to all of the same perceived advantages. If you see that some hubbers are awarded "elite" status, then read their hubs and see what they are doing right. Work hard and earn that status yourself. I'm not an "elite" writer but I sure would like to be, so, you can bet your bottom dollar that I will be checking out their work.
  
  Let's not argue about all of this nonsense. Instead, we should be supporting our fellow writers. That's really why I write for HubPages. I learn and am inspired by all of you every day. What is happening here, however, is not the sort of inspiration I am looking for.
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  wordscribe43posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  THIS!
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  WriteAngledposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Whatever my feelings are about diverse matters, I have actually been using the word "scheme" here in its sense of "a systematic plan or arrangement for attaining some particular object or putting a particular idea into effect" (Oxford English Dictionary).
  
  I don't like using the word "program" because to me that means software. If I use my preferred spelling for the word, I am plagued by a squiggly red line. I tend to choose synonyms to avoid irritating squiggles whenever possible. I don't know why the squiggles appear, they only started a couple of weeks ago.
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  denisemaiposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I'm sure that's how you mean it, but, I'm sure you also know that it can refer to an underhanded plot which creates a sense of negativity. Maybe "course" would be more apt. It is an educational course for writers. That isn't negative in any way. Just a suggestion. Have a great day!
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  summerberrieposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Denisemai, It was brought to my attention those "across the pond" use the word scheme differently than we do here in the U.S.
  
  There is not the negative connotations we associate with it. It is a synonym for program and is not derogatory in nature.
  
  Personally, I do not feel it is up to me to defend HP when a fellow hubber questions their actions: they read the threads and can provide their own defense.
  
  However, as an apprentice alum, I was grateful to be part of the program. It would have taken me years to build the successful portfolio that I have today if I had to tackle it on my own. The program/scheme saved me time with trial and error. I learned how to write with a purpose. Find an audience and be effective. It motivated me to be prolific even when it was not convenient. I believe this is the motivation behind the program and it worked for me. I am glad HP has this resource to offer writers. If this appeals to you then I encourage you to apply for the program.
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  EmpressFelicityposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Denise, firstly let me say that if you think I'm resentful of HP's apprentices, I can assure you that it isn't so. Most of you seem like reasonable people.
  
  I do think that if apprentices are making up the majority of HOTD winners, then there are two possibilities:
  
  (A) Apprentices are the only ones who are publishing new hubs of any quality
  (B) TPTB have a conscious policy of picking out apprentices as winners of HOTD, rather than non-apprentices.
  
  My money is on (B). I personally don't think that's fair. I don't see why I should have to join the apprenticeship program in order to gain benefits that should be open to everyone on the basis of quality alone. It makes me feel that there isn't a level playing field, and discourages me from writing here. Furthermore, all the changes that HP keeps making just make me think "WTF is going to be next, I wonder?" Again, this is a HUGE disincentive to write any more here.
  
  You were asking about the Elite thing? If you see anyone with a little "e" next to their avatar, they're an Elite. A better term (IMO) would have been something with fewer Third Reich overtones, like "Greeter" or "Welcomer" because that's their main function AFAICT.
  
  Not sure why you are making a a distinction between a "scheme" and a "program", or why you think I am doing so, but it seems like a trivial point so let it ride.
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  denisemaiposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Oh, gosh. Empress Felicity, you have the right to feel however you feel. I am a fan of words and think word choice can convey feeling. Words have power and how we choose to use them is us exercising that power. You feel that the word "scheme" conveys how you feel. Understood. You're entitled to use it, for sure. Readers are also entitled to interpret it as they see fit. That is all.
  
  Man, I sure wish that HOTD was based on participating in the Apprenticeship. Then I would get picked! I'm in my 6th month of the AP and have never been chosen. But, that's okay. I really have learned a lot. I originally thought I'd be writing strictly humor but they have expanded my horizons. Glad to know that you don't think we're all bad.
  
  Thanks for filling me in on the elite thing. I really never noticed that before. Like I said, I'll have to check them out. I've never been greeted by one. Maybe it started after I began? I'm not a text jargon user, but, I figured out what TBTB means. I am still clueless as to what AFAICT means. LOL Should I ask my teenagers?
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  EmpressFelicityposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Summerberrie pointed out that in the UK, "scheme" doesn't have negative connotations. I am from the UK. She is correct.
  
  Just google it
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  denisemaiposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I just did! Cambridge dictionary also lists "a plan for getting an advantage for yourself, especially by deceiving others." Same as here. The sentence used is spectacularly British: "He's got a hare-brained/crazy/daft scheme for getting rich before he's 20." I LOVE that! Although when you say things with a British, Scottish, or Irish accent, it sounds ever so much better. That's not important The most important thing in the world to me right now is finding out what AFAICT means. Puhleeez let me know. I'm so curious!
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  WriteAngledposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  As Far As I Can Tell
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  Judi Beeposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Oh, I'll put you out of your misery Denise:
  
  As far as I can tell!
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  denisemaiposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Mwah! I love you both. Thank you! Now I can move on with my day.
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  Natashalhposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I also would love it if being an apprentice were a ticket to receiving a hub of the day! I maintain that apprentices are probably disproportionally represented (evidently, I haven't done the math myself) in the HOTD program because they tend to feature WTI hubs as HOTD and apprentices are encouraged to write WTI hubs. If folks want to increase the likelihood of getting featured, they should write WTI hubs. It is clearly stated the HOTD is frequently chosen from the ranks of WTI hubs, so this isn't a secret.
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  Judi Beeposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Oh WA, I missed your reply! I work with teenagers almost every day, so I'm used to hearing "fail" used as a noun - as I said, I was being facetious!
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EmpressFelicityposted 11 years ago
It seems the apprenctice scheme is proving to be divisive - just like the poorly-named "Elite" designation.

Why am I not surprised?
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WriteAngledposted 11 years ago
The issue is that second-class writing is being promoted via HOTD as a shining example that everyone should follow!

Favouritism is bad at any time. In this case, however, it also means that poor quality work is being actively promoted on the flagship pages of this site as a supposed example of the best content here. This is to the detriment of everyone, apprentice or not.

As for your suggestion: you are suggesting that I work for nothing. Why should I offer unpaid time in order to correct the grammatical mistakes made by others on this site? As I said several threads before concerning the same topic, when I correct translations, I receive $40 or £25 per hour for my efforts.

Moreover, cooperation and collaboration work when the playing field is level. Unfortunately, it is becoming increasingly apparent that some are more equal than others on HP.

If I did have the luxury of offering myself for voluntary work on this site, I would much sooner volunteer to proofread and edit the hubs of those who applied to be apprentices and were rejected.
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IzzyMposted 11 years ago
I believe in this thread we now have 'apprentices' ganging up on an ordinary member.

WA, you and me are just PLEBS! lol
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  Judi Beeposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  The thread's about apprentices! What, we're not allowed to respond? Seen and not heard? OK, got the message - turning my back now, carry on talking behind it
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  wildernessposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Izzy, can I rejoin he PLEBES group again? I feel more comfortable there than as an exalted apprentice that must produce perfection at all times.
  
  It does get a little disheartening to try my best to produce a great hub, only to be accused of not writing absolutely perfect prose, of receiving special treatment in getting HOTD or coming off pending.
  
  As with any group of hubbers, there are those that try and those that don't - it's almost a natural law. Nearly half of my own group of apprentices participate very little in group discussions and/or reviews. Some have flunked out. Others remain, but I have no idea of the quality of their work as they don't share it. I'm sure some of it is good and some is bad.
  
  There has been considerable "hate" displayed lately as to apprentices not having to go through the pending process; what garbage! Several apprentices have posted their own experiences; the same experience everyone else has. They are still "favorites", though, even with identical experiences.
  
  Others have made HOTD and are thus "favorites", but consider; apprentices must write 50 hubs in 6 months, all to standards set up by HP as to what they consider "good" hubs. How many established hubbers have written that much lately? Of those, how many write in the format HP has decided is "good" from keyword research to hub format and use of capsules? The answer is relatively few; as a percentage of hubs produced those of the apprentices (that follow HP guidelines) are high on the list simply because they do write according to the guidelines and are relatively prolific while doing so. I would expect to see a high percentage of them get HOTD (I have not) as a result. What's so hard to understand about that?
  
  If you see apprentices "ganging up" on "ordinary" members, just maybe there is a cause somewhere behind it.
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  janderson99posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  "What's so hard to understand about that?" Its wrong! IMO Where's your research? Many established writers are very prolific and write high quality articles. What is needed is transparency, and for HP to state the criteria for HOTD and getting featured on the topics pages. HP can do what it likes, but everyone here deserves to understand what the criteria are, and that they are being applied fairly and universally according to these stated criteria.
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  wildernessposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You didn't read well. I'm not seeing established hubbers producing 2 hubs per week, and those that do don't generally write according to the guidelines that HP as established as being "good". Not high quality, "good" according to their guidelines. There may or may not be a difference, but those are the guidelines they are using.
  
  Is it then wrong to use those guidelines to choose HOTD? If so, why? Should they be chosen at random? Would you do that if it were your site? HP has long promoted these same guidelines in what they think makes a great hub, but it's a lot of work and few will do it. Easier to push out a few hundred words with one or two pictures grabbed off the net somewhere on a topic with no keyword research.
  
  It just looks to me, even though I haven't had a HOTD since long before joining the program, that choosing those hubs is quite equitable and fair. If you want to know what is considered "good", research flagship hubs. Much of the same concepts are repeated in the apprenticeship program. That kind of writing has lost favor some time ago in the forums as no one can definitively prove it gets traffic (although stats from HP indicate it is quite probable) and it's a lot of work. Put out 50 flagship quality hubs and see if you get HOTD.
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  janderson99posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  What guidelines are you referring to => "Stellar Hubs"
  1500+ words in 5+ capsules; 5+ photos, 1+ videos, 1+ Map, 1+ Table, 1+ Poll and 1+ Quiz. - looks like capsule stuffing to me!
  If it ain't capsule stuffed its no bloody good!
  Have a look at a few topics and you will see many, many established writers who get 'featured' produce a lot more than 2 hubs per week, more like 10! Many more don't get featured!!!!
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  wildernessposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  It may look like capsule stuffing to you, but it is what HP considers to be a part of a very good hub. They like it, you don't - does that mean they should choose a HOTD with less than stellar qualities becquse you think it's capsule stuffing?
  
  10 hubs per week - yes I could do that. In about 80 hours, using the guidelines of stellar hubs (along with others). Others may (will) do it faster, but most of those won't be writing along those guidelines.
  
  I get the feeling that I'm not making myself clear. While you may think that HP should make their choices based on what you like to see in a hub, it isn't your site and they will do as they please. Using their own ideas of what constitutes quality, which is exactly why you are seeing a "disproportionate" number of AP hubs being chosen as HOTD. Those hubs are being written according to what HP thinks of as high quality, whether you agree or not, and HP will make their choice based on that perception of high quality, not yours. You want a better chance at HOTD, write "stellar" or "flagship" hubs.
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  janderson99posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  All I am suggesting is that HP should explicitly state their criteria for HOTD and 'featured' on topic pages. Not hard! Surely that's fair and appropriate. That would end the speculation. If they allocate various priorities or weightings, that's fine just tell us.
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  wildernessposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  If you were to choose a HOTD, would you have a form in front of you, checking off and giving points for each of 100 items? Or would you read them and give a choice based on what your gut feeling is a great hub?
  
  I repeat - if you want a HOTD, write 50 "stellar" hubs and hope for the best. Speculation on what is necessary seems to be coming from those that won't use already published guidelines on what a great hub is and then complains. You have the "priorities", such as they are in a very subjective field - use them to produce a HOTD of that's what is important to you.
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  janderson99posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  " would you read them and give a choice based on what your gut feeling is a great hub?" YES YES
  But would I add an amateur video, quizz, and a 'partridge in a pear tree' to a hub where it would be inappropriate and silly to do so. NO NO
  We still don't know what the criteria really are? So its all guesswork. HOTD I'm NOT!
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  Judi Beeposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Hi Janderson99 - I've had three HOTD - two before I joined the AP and one since. If I knew why these three hubs were chosen, I'd tell you. I don't. They weren't what I consider my best writing (just deleted that one - it went idle). So, in the dark as much as you.
  
  BTW, I don't see the big deal about them - yes, it raises your profile ON THE SITE - but that doesn't mean a bean in the big world of Google. Personally, I should think that few people come to HP and browse through the site like they would a magazine, so HOTD (or for that matter "featured" hubs - I never bother looking) isn't that important to "outsiders". Viewers come to the site by finding your hub when they search for something specific, which hopefully they find in your hub.
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  janderson99posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  HOTD went Idle => not Hot to Trot!
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  Judi Beeposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  No, a HOTD didn't go idle. I said that I didn't consider any of my HOTD to be my best pieces of writing - the hub that I did consider to be my best piece of writing went idle.
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  janderson99posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry, My humble Apologies
  Someone else, somewhere said this.
  Some like it HOT some Not
  Cheers,
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Mark Ewbieposted 11 years ago
This thread is taking an interesting diversion. I am a bad writer. I write in short sentences, bad syntax, and make a series of grammatical howlers.

It is likely that most of my audience don't notice or don't care.

My main thrust is to be understood and to make a coherent point.

I like slang.

And breaking the rules.

And doing that first person thing.

To be honest, as long as what I write is nowhere near the dull tedium of a Wiki entry... I'm happy.

As Wilderness says - it's all about the audience. Mine are morons.

No offence to any of my audience who might be reading this of course.
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  Steve Westposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Hey, I resemble that remark, Mark !
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  Mark Ewbieposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Never admit it in a public place Steve - keep any reading a dirty little secret.
  
  Fortunately Google seems to have realised my grammar isn't up to scratch.
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  Steve Westposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Screw Google. Your writing makes me laugh-out-loud every time! So I just admitted it. I'm a moron and proud of it!
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  Mark Ewbieposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Ah, stop it.
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  janderson99posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  proud moron
  
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  Mark Ewbieposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Excellent.
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  Steve Westposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I LOVE my new avatar! I will never change it again.
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  Steve Westposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I love it! For all of you a's, b's, c's, d's and e's out there I'm getting ready to publish a hub so prepare to scrutinize the guy that started this whole thing. Just remember, as I stated before, I already know I suck at writing so pointing out errors is a waste of your time cuz I don't care, my mommy still loves me.
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  denisemaiposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Steve, I've never read your stuff but I'll check it out. I won't be picking it apart, though. Unless it's really horrible. Juuust kidding. Marke Ewbie--I've read tons of your stuff. It's funny. Funny people get to break the rules. 'Nuff said.
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  janderson99posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Hey mate! Your "pm" avatar will get banned! Happened to an "O" Oh!
  It was a joke, right!
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  SimeyCposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  
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  snakeslaneposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Mark, No offense taken. It takes one to know one.
  
  offence? oops
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WriteAngledposted 11 years ago
The topics I cover have no "trade slang" or other slang associated with them.

I write in the way it is natural for me to write. It is the way I have written for the last 45 years or so, since I was a young teenager. I think it would be a fairly pointless exercise to force my writing into some other style. That would feel wrong and uncomfortable to me and sound artificial to readers.

I suppose my writing style and the majority of my topics target what one might call the "educated layman" or, in UK talk, the "reader of The Times newspaper".

Yes, I agree this means I am never likely to get many views. However, I prefer to remain within my comfort zone with respect to audience, topics and writing style.

Moreover, my argument in this thread does not concern style or topic selection. I may despise the style of a particular piece and be totally uninterested in the topic, others may love it, and vice versa. My point is that HP administration repeatedly goes on about the importance of good grammar, considers this to be a major selection criterion for both HOTD and the apprentice scheme, yet time after time shines the spotlight on hubs that contain poor grammar.
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  Mark Ewbieposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Hey WA. I write within my comfort zone as well and if it's any consolation - I don't get many views either.
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wordscribe43posted 11 years ago
The main objection I'm hearing is how the apprentice hubbers get spotlighted more, even in lieu of grammar and spelling errors. I just don't understand why the animosity exists towards the apprentices themselves, though. Why not feel annoyed that HP isn't doing more to help them catch their errors (which we all make, btw). It's a learning program after all, isn't it?

And... a lot of excellent hubs have been produced by apprentices. For the most part, the quality is better than a LOT of hubs on this site. It's a step in the right direction, if you ask me. Progress not perfection... and all that. I'm not an apprentice, so I can't accurately address the amount of work entailed. But, I've read about the program and it doesn't sound like a walk in the park to me. We all have lives outside of HP, too (at least I hope). So, I have a lot of respect for these individuals who are voluntarily dedicating their efforts into learning and improving.

If there is resentment, I just think it's being directed inappropriately. Why isn't the staff catching the errors? Shouldn't that be part of the program? I don't know how it all works, so I can't make recommendations about possible remedies. Do staff proofread the hubs? Do team members read them? Perhaps that's the starting point in catching these errors.

Lord knows I need someone to proofread mine!
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  wildernessposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You have possibly hit on part of the problem; staff does NOT proof our AP hubs for grammar or spelling. Or sure, if they happen to catch something they will bring it to our attention, but most of that kind of proofing is done by fellow apprentices.
  
  As some apprentices post their work in the equivalent of the "extreme makeover" thread and some do not, a lot of AP hubs are never proofed by anyone but the writer.
  
  I can't see HP staff becoming English or grammar teachers. Rather they are there to help us understand better how to write on the web in general and on HP in specific. It really has been interesting the last six months to watch the quality (and grammar) improve in the hubs being written by myself and those others in my class. Perfect? Certainly not, especially my own proofing. Better than it was? Absolutely, in all areas.
  
  You have chosen grammar to complain that apprentices are being spotlighted, but what about good keyword research? How about use of capsules? Use of high quality, personally owned photos? Do you look at and critique the topic chosen or the links provided? Do you consider how the author attempts to entertain and maintain readers interest? Do you evaluate the appearance of the page?
  
  All of these are important to online writing, and it is in these areas that HP is trying to pass along their expertise, not spelling and grammar.
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  wordscribe43posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I think you misunderstood what I'm saying. I am not the one complaining about the grammar... I've just come to the conclusion that's what hubbers are complaining about. Heck, I've been the one person here defending you guys! I'm the one saying stop picking on the apprentices...
  
  I agree with what you're saying. I think it's ALL important... it's just the grammar that many hubbers are focusing on.
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  wildernessposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry, wordscribe, - I'm maybe a little touchy about the subject lately.
  
  Nevertheless, the point we both made - that HP isn't trying to teach grammar or spelling - stands. It seems to be a misunderstanding on this thread that that is the subject of the AP, but it isn't. You may understand that, but others don't and apparently don't care to either.
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  Motown2Chitownposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  wilderness, with the way others have been speaking to and about those who are taking part in the AP, it's no wonder you're a bit touchy. While the program has been offered to everyone, it's had a huge response and not everyone who's wanted to be a part of it has had the chance. They may or may not have that chance later on, but I think right now, some folks are feeling a little wounded by HP. In truth, HP is offering the program to improve the quality of the content on this site. They are not singling anyone out to be ... pets, for lack of a better word. At least, I don't think so. But then, I think the moon landing actually happened, I don't believe the US government is behind 9-11, and I'm pretty sure the FBI isn't monitoring my computer keystrokes, so I may be way more gullible than I think.
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  IzzyMposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  This.
  
  Many of us learned how to write successful hubs the hard way. It took time and patience.
  
  Now newbies are being leapfrogged over long-term hubbers. I have no idea if the apprentice program could teach me anything or not. I suspect it would.
  
  The added benefit of getting $6 a hub, plus the extra exposure the 'a's seem to be getting would be welcome too.
  
  But no, it's go to the back of the queue.
  
  Then to add insult to injury, we have some newbie hubbers on the program coming to the forums with a superior attitude.
  
  'Newbie' in this instance is referred to hubbers with less than a year in.
  
  It was bound sooner or later to cause resentment, and it has.
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  wildernessposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You have some good points, Izzy, but I don't think you or most people understand what is being done with the AP program. I can't read HP's mind, and they haven't explained their thinking and strategy, but I DO see some effects of the program that those that haven't gone through it can.
  
  A combination of newbie and "elder" (for lack of a better term) hubbers seem to be in each group; just look at the a's on the forum to see it. I believe this is done intentionally, as those elders are being used by HP to help the newbies. Yes, we have mentors helping, but most of the help and tips are coming from the apprentices themselves. If that is indeed the case then the mix is necessary and newbies will be chosen at least as often as established hubbers. There is likely (I would, anyway) a preference being given to elder hubbers that have been helpful in the forums.
  
  Yes, the $6 is nice; it is more than most apprentices are earning. For the work involved, however, it is tiny.
  
  There is absolutely no reason or excuse for apprentices to have a superior attitude. They may or may not have gathered tips and information on how to write a good hub, but in any case it doesn't mean they will continue to write good hubs without being pushed hard to do so. The reports in this thread of trash coming out of the hopper, being written by apprentices, is witness to that. People will be people, and I suppose that "holier than thou" attitude will come naturally to some AP graduates, but it is plain silly and should be ignored. It is one thing to try to use that information to help others, it is quite another to decide that a graduate is superior because of it.
  
  And finally, the program isn't going to teach a hard worker, wanting to learn, anything that the learning center can't. It's all in there for anyone that will read and study it.
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  Motown2Chitownposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I can see where you're coming from with this one, Izzy. I think the biggest wound has been the feeling of the long loyal being pushed aside while the fresh faces are taken under a wing and lauded. It's as though those who helped to lay the foundation for HP are being ignored at best and insulted at worst. I definitely get it. I just don't think that it's fair for anyone (not that you have) to beat up on the apprentices as though they created the paradigm.
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EmpressFelicityposted 11 years ago
I would like to add another perspective (which I touched on a while back in another thread): the dangers of groupthink. If "the group" welcomes you with open arms, provides lots of encouragement, positive feedback and mutual support, then psychologically it's very difficult to be the lone dissenting voice should there be a situation where you disagree with the rest of the group's members. (By "the group" in this context I mean not just other apprentices, but HP's management too.)

Back in the 1950s the advertising expert William Whyte wrote a book called "The Organization Man" which dealt with this very topic. If anything, it's even more relevant to today's society than it was back then.

It is this groupthink thing that makes me very wary of the apprenticeship program, and is probably the main reason why I haven't applied. I do not want to invest a large amount of time and emotional energy in something that I may later want to back out of.
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  summerberrieposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  EmpressFelicity, I can assure you those in my group were from all walks of life and many were extremely intelligent people. Our group was very diverse. What you are saying to me sounds like someone saying they will not sign up for a community course on writing because they are afraid of "groupthink". Those at HP have done lots of research and have stats that drive them to encourage writers to organize their hubs a particular way. Of course once you learn the method, a hubber has complete freedom to utilize what ever method they prefer. And the content is the hubbers no one dictates.
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  EmpressFelicityposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Yeahbutnobut. In a creative writing course, you all go your separate ways once the course has finished. On HubPages, you and your content stay in place after you graduate from the apprenticeship scheme. Just to drive the point home, you have that lil green "a" on your avatar that tells people you're an apprenticeship graduate. There's a difference.
  
  The point I was making is this: if HP does something that you personally object to, then as an apprentice or apprenticeship graduate, are you going to feel able to come out and say so? Or is it going to be a case of "Oh, HP has invested all this time and effort into me and my hubs, I would look really ungrateful if I said anything"?
  
  Do you see what I mean here?
  
  Another question: I gather HP pays you $6 for every hub you write while you're an apprentice, correct? Do they let you unpublish the hub later on if you want to delete it/move it elsewhere?
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  Natashalhposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I actually have unpublished and deleted one hub I received credit for. No one has broken in to my bank account to take their $6 back.
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  EmpressFelicityposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Ah, that answers that question then. Just wondering.
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  summerberrieposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  My integrity speaks for itself. If you comb the threads you will see HP did not buy my allegiance. Nor have they ever tried. I speak freely and give my opinions openly. I give my feedback to HP in the spirit of honesty. I do not stereotype and I address issues as they come to be based on merit.
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  wildernessposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  How odd! They haven't bought my allegiance with that massive $6/hub payment either.
  
  True, I haven't joined the mad rash of HP bashing we've seen the last couple of weeks as various sock puppets try to start a mini virtual revolution, but it isn't because I've been bought off. It's simply because HP has done little to nothing wrong to complain about and I actually think about the wild claims being seen before I post on the subject.
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  EmpressFelicityposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  "Either you're with us, or you're against us." Sigh.
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  wildernessposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Seems that way, doesn't it, looking through the posts here. There is great anger at HP as google takes away our traffic and anyone in sight can end up a scapegoat.
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  EmpressFelicityposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  There are two separate issues here. One is the google traffic loss thing, which is understandably making people jumpy and/or demotivated. The other is HP's many, many site changes over the last 18 months, some of which either don't make sense or have been introduced in a manner that almost seems designed to piss people off.
  
  Quite honestly I'm not surprised that people are angry. The only reason I'm not more angry than I am is because thankfully, I don't rely on this place for income.
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  wildernessposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  It doesn't matter what change HP makes, or why - someone is going to be angry about it. Advertising changes and giving reasons are the same - it will piss some people off. HP is going to do what they think best for their business, tempered somewhat by the effect it will have on writers. They are people too, and I believe they actually care about others, but most changes will be for their benefit.
  
  OK - if I don't like writing on their site, I won't write on their site. I will not complain that they don't run it the way I want them too, for my sole benefit, and I won't try to raise the hubber population in an uprising to harm the company or it's owners.
  
  Anyone that actually thinks HP has made changes, or has made the changes in a manner that is deliberately designed to piss people off is a fool. It is not in their best interest to do so, and they won't. Individual hubbers may be hurt but the work done by staff is absolutely designed to help the business and thus the community as a whole.
  
  Personally, I predict that eventually HP will put a stop to the constant bashing they are undergoing lately. It will ruin the forums, but may be preferable (strictly in a business sense) to allowing such angry people as the puppets I referenced from turning more and more otherwise happy hubbers into a seething pot, ready to explode at any time. Those puppets have turned the forums in little more that one massive gripe at HP management - shutting them down completely by banning anyone dissing HP won't hurt much more. HP bans anyone attacking another person - they might as well go all the way and ban anyone attacking the company or staff as well.
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  EmpressFelicityposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Censorship. Ugh.
  
  I could say more here, but it would probably get me banned
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  EmpressFelicityposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not casting aspersions on your integrity. If HP hasn't bought your allegiance, as you put it, then good for you.
  
  It will be interesting though to see if/how the overall tenor of the site and its forum changes, as more and more members pass through the apprenticeship scheme.
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  janderson99posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Only if the 'b, c, d, , f, g......+ trolls' are banished for their sins!
  
  Forum tenor casting nasturtiums
  
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  EmpressFelicityposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  LOL. I did actually consider using the phrase "casting nasturtiums" but given the misunderstandings that have cropped up on this thread, I decided against it!
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  summerberrieposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I hope it does.
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  Steve Westposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Summerberrie did you like the hub I did for you? Now you have to come visit Myrtle Beach. Thank you for the hub inspiration. I didn't mean to start a war between everyone, I kinda feel bad I started it to begin with, being a newbie and all. At least everyone now knows I'm a PM (see profile).
  http://stevewest.hubpages.com/video/A-S … h-Vacation
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  IzzyMposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Hi Steve, I read your hub and voted it up! I'm not good at commenting. The only thing I knew about Myrtle Beach is that it suffered a few shark attacks this summer!
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  Steve Westposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you IzzyM, when I first moved here I was a mate on a fishing boat while finishing my "sea time" for my captain license. We would fish 50 yards off the beach for sharks. Ankle deep is as far as I will go in the water. Just today the local news channel was filming 2 "fins" in knee deep water. Forget that! I'd rather boil. Thank you for the compliment.
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  summerberrieposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I was playing a board game with my son and his girlfriend(Settlers of Catan). She won. Nice hub. Loved the video. Thanks for writing it. I look forward to following you and reading more. Saw you had other hubs on the area. I will stop in another time and read them, too.
  
  You raised a good topic about HOTD- nothing like a great discussion in the forums
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  Steve Westposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you summerberrie your suggestion was irresistible. The hardest part was waiting on the side of the road for that darn airplane to come in. I appreciate the compliments and the comments. More Myrtle beach to come soon. Same airplane footage however.
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  summerberrieposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You should do really good with that niche.
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  Horatio Plotposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  My integrity on the other hand can be bought for far less that $6.09 a go. As has been pointed out before, my initials aren't HP for nothing. Just give me a packet of Panini football stickers and a Pop-Tart and I'll agree to anything.
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  summerberrieposted 11 years agoin reply to this
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  Horatio Plotposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Ah, strawberry....
  You know the way to a boy's heart.
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  summerberrieposted 11 years agoin reply to this
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  summerberrieposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I assure you there is not any brainwashing going on behind the scenes. Individuals who sign up for the program do so because they have the attitude of a learner. They are intellectuals who know there is always something more to learn. They want to be successful here as an online writer and take advantage of a resource offered to them. We are not children who can be easily led blindly or easily manipulated into some sort of allegiance because we think a resource (offered to all) but somehow it makes us superior or special and in order to prove we are worthy of our rank we need to become a click and bully other hubbers to make HP happy with us. We are adults, with family and careers. Many of us have our own business, are professionals, have leadership roles in the community. We do not find our self worth here on HP. We have not sold our soul out to HP just so we can wear an 'a' on our avatar. We want to improve and have taken advantage of what was made available to us. Those who want to do the same should be able to do it without intimidation. I hope as the 'a's graduate. They will join in the forums. I think it will be a better place and yes, the tone might start changing.
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  Motown2Chitownposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  It may also be news to some that some of the apprentices have long been active community members, in the forums as well as elsewhere. wilderness is an example. He's been an active forum participant for quite a while. habee is another. Just because these folks are apprentices doesn't mean they're new to HP. The program is new but many of its participants are long time hubbers.
  
  The apprentice program is about learning what works in ONLINE WRITING. It's not about grammar and spelling and basic composition skills. In the grand scheme of things, if one has an issue with those things, they should be writing hubs themselves on how to write to educate the other members of the community. Also, it's an issue that should be taken up individually and privately with the offending writer.
  
  Lastly, the biggest issue to sweep our own front porches first. If we do our housework and others do theirs, all the world will be full of clean houses. If we leave the spelling/grammar police to do all the work while the rest of us sit on our lazy butts, they're going to be worn out and we're going to be ticked off.
  
  My two cents.
  
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  Millionaire Tipsposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  This is a great quote, and can fit in so many different things in life!
  
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  Motown2Chitownposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks, MT! I have to admit, it is not my original. A wonderful and wise woman that I used to work with said that to me a long time ago, and I've kept it as a tenet of my own life's philosophy ever since. I certainly appreciate that response, however, so thank you again.
  
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  wildernessposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You've hit the nail on the head as far as grammar and spelling are concerned; they are NOT a part of the AP program. Yes, it is pointed out that it needs to be correct, but no tutoring past that point. The learning is directed towards how to write ONLINE, not how to write in general.
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  EmpressFelicityposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Show me the part of this thread where I said that you'd "sold your soul" or were being "blindly manipulated". You'll find that I didn't say anything of the kind.
  
  I simply pointed out that if apprentices are being given encouragement and mentorship as part of the apprentice program, plus a small but real financial incentive, then perhaps it is likely to engender a certain sense of... loyalty, which would make it psychologically harder to object if HP's management ever did something you disagreed with. This kind of loyalty is a natural thing, which we would all feel in the same situation (unless we're complete sociopaths). Perhaps that is the true purpose of the apprenticeship program - to engender a sense of loyalty.
  
  It will change HP I've no doubt, but I personally am not sure it will be for the better.
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  summerberrieposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  We all have our own bents and tendencies. I believe we all start out in life with a healthy dose of being self centered (ask any kindergarten teacher). Hopefully, as we get older we mature and learn how to be less self-centered. There are different degrees of maturity.
  
  When I read forum post, I read in the spirit of listening to what the person is saying.
  
  I think you misunderstand the apprentice program's participants and the relationship with HP. Apprentice are given a minimal standard to maintain (in a form letter). Feedback is given (pointing out short comings) and the apprentice is given a warning to fix the hub or risk being thrown out of the program (again somewhat in the form of a standard letter). This is no touchy feely place where one gets to fraternize with the staff.
  
  I think you are drawing conclusions about how all individuals will respond in a given situation by looking through the lens of your own personal experience.
  
  Personally, I really do not think everyone who goes through the program/scheme (some may) feel such a level of gratitude they will not speak up and give feedback to HP. I already think a few 'a's have mentioned their distaste of the new forum thread layout and the list goes on.
  
  HP has its reasons for putting the 'a' on the avatar. If you find it distasteful and shows an eschewed since of favoritism then open a thread in the suggest a new feature and offer up the point of view all hubbers avatar should look the same.
  
  As a community of writers, we should be able to have a discussion with differing points of view. However, how can one have a discussion if another person draws conclusions on a whole group of people based on their own prejudices?
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  EmpressFelicityposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Not quite sure what you are saying here, or what relevance it has to this discussion.
  
  From what you're saying there is a lot less active staff-to-hubber mentorship on the apprentice program than I thought there was. A mistaken assumption on my part, which you have corrected.
  
  But there may be a *trend* towards greater conformity of opinion. Fewer people who are prepared to be the "nail that sticks out", as it were.
  
  The only thing that will confirm it either way is time. It would be interesting to see what this place is like in a year or so.
  
  About removing the "a" on the avatar... I really don't care that much, to be honest.
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  summerberrieposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I think we both want people to have the freedom to speak their minds. I've enjoyed my conversation with you and you have given me another perspective. I don't think what you are afraid if will happen, or at least I hope not. Like you say...time will tell. If it does I will assure you I will take a stance against it!
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  Mark Ewbieposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  OK, I Googled "eschewed since of favoritism ". No joy. It offered me "eschewed science of favoritism " but I am none the wiser.
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  Shadesbreathposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I lol'ed at that too.
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  EmpressFelicityposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I'm guessing it's a case of The Curse of Predictive Text Strikes Again. Makes me glad I use an old-fashioned laptop with a keyboard.
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  summerberrieposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Oh, well. I suppose I deserve you all laughing at me. I got carried away. Hopefully, both of us made some valid points and have given those interested two honest perspectives.
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  summerberrieposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Okay. It was my backhanded way to get us back on topic
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  janderson99posted 11 years agoin reply to this
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  janderson99posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Time to start a new Forum - AO
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  Horatio Plotposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Hear, hear.. My head's spinning and my ear's are ringing.
  "Turn on, tune in, drop out."
  It wears you out sometimes, does HubPages...
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  Horatio Plotposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Or here, here. Depends which dictionary you use.
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WriteAngledposted 11 years ago
Scheme

Of 9 definitions supplied by the Oxford English Dictionary:

A plan, design; a programme of action; the designed scope and method of an undertaking or a literary work, etc. Phrases, to cast, lay a scheme .
First recorded usage 1704 Joseph. Addison in his The campaign: a poem, to His Grace the Duke of Marlborough: "Our god-like leader, ere the stream he past, The mighty scheme of all his labours cast."
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  denisemaiposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Haha. I admire your dogged determination. I never once disputed that there are positive and negative meanings. I was merely explaining why people may have found it negative. If it doesn't bother you then go for it. My original post was about digressing and arguing when we should be supporting. I'll continue on that path. I need to get writing. I have that nasty hub requirement hanging over my head and time is running out. Tick tock.
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  Natashalhposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I think we are all familiar with the denotation - it is the American connotation some have taken offense to.
  
  But while you're looking up denotations, if you take a moment to find 'program/programme' in the OED, you will find a piece of computer software listed in the fourth spot, so it is not the primary meaning.
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  WriteAngledposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  In its entry for programme / program, the OED mentions that all non-obsolete senses of the word derive from the French programme
  
  and goes on to say:
  
  "The more common earlier (and predominantly Scottish) form program was retained by Scott, Carlyle, Hamilton, and others, even after the borrowing of senses directly from French in the late 18th cent. and early 19th cent.; it conforms to the usual English representation of Greek -γραμμα , in e.g. anagram n., cryptogram n., diagram n., telegram n., etc. The influence of French programme led to the predominance of this spelling in the 19th cent. The forms programme and program have since become established as the standard British and U.S. spellings respectively, with the exception that program is usual everywhere in senses relating to computing."
  
  There is no entry under "program/programme".
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  denisemaiposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Whoops. Point of order. Latin and Greek came before French. Programma was used in Latin in the 1630's but was based off the Greek programmatos which was off a root word that is from an even earlier time. The Brits only started using programme in the early 19th century and that is, indeed, based on the French language. I took an easy 'A' English Word Origins class my last semester in college AND I watched "My Big, Fat, Greek Wedding" which clearly teaches people that a) all words can be traced back to a Greek root, b) Windex cures everything and c) If you wear your hair back and start wearing lipstick you'll land a hottie like John Corbett.
  
  That is all. Carry on.
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  WriteAngledposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  While the usage became common in the 19th century, it was already present in written texts prior to that period
  
  In 1671
  H. Stubbe Lord Bacons Relation to Sweating-sickness Examined 56 At Naples..the Colledge of Physicians caused many [bodies] to be dissected: I have not met with the Programme published by them.
  
  1682
  in Sc. Antiquary (1901) July 4 [They] determined..without affixing any previous programe or using any examinatione to appoint the said Mr. J. Y.
  
  1699
  A. Boyer Royal Dictionary sig. Ppv3, Programme,.. a Bill set up to give publick Notice of the Exercise to be performed in the School.]
  
  1799
  Letter dated 14 Dec. in Meteors I. (1800) 132, I have sent you a short scene of the first Act, in addition to the Programme.
  
  Anyway, I have several translations I wish to finish this weekend, so have no more time for etymology at present.
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  IzzyMposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Anyway, I got totally lost in the whole scheme of things.
  
  I love the word 'scheme'.
  
  In the 60s in central Scotland, many late 19th century tenement buildings (slums) were torn down, and the brand new housing that replaced them were called 'schemes' or more specifically 'housing schemes'.
  
  These houses were great at first for families moving into them. They had indoor toilets and running water.
  
  The tenements had an outside shared loo, so this was really a step up!
  
  Then as wealth increased, new housing estates were built for the better off who could afford a mortgage to buy them.
  One way to really piss someone off is to describe the estate he lives on as a 'scheme'.
  
  That is the only derogatory term for 'scheme' that I know of.
  
  Otherwise it just means a plan.
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  Natashalhposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  My OED is only the two volume version with fewer examples. It is also 8 years old, so I guess it inferior. My point was simply that it's primary meaning is not computer software. I am honored that you devoted a chunk of your highly-valued time to type so much information.
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  denisemaiposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Okay. I was laughing at someone else's expense and decided that was rude. I will say this, though: If I said something by mistake that offended people, I would apologize. I wouldn't defend myself to the ends of the earth. Especially if it was a difference of interpretation due to geography. Maybe that's just me.
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denisemaiposted 11 years ago
Ahhhh...cool. Good to know. So, I still really want to earn HOTD! Got it. Did you publish your best piece of writing somewhere else? It's sad to see good work disappear.
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  Judi Beeposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  It's stored on the computer - will unleash it on an unwilling public at a later date.
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Steve Westposted 11 years ago
Dear Folks,

As you all know I am the newly self appointed PM of hubpages, at least until I am banned. For now I wanted to get something off my chest with all of you fine people. Please offer me only two minutes of your time at first, later I may ask for a few more. I am going to deviate from the topic in just a moment, however right now I am going to tell you what I should have done. Please keep in mind it is Sunday afternoon and I have had a couple of Bud Lights. Therefore I will not be as precise with spel/gram/punc/edit as I would like to be for an audience of extremely skilled writers that ya'll are. Please don't be too harsh on me all things considered.

What I should have done is, as many of you quoted, and I'm sure the rest thought, simply e-mail the young man who wrote the hub I mentioned and politely say hey, you screwed up big time you should check it. Done. Instead I was moody and I took it out on this young man probably bustin' his butt, late for work or something so he could feed his family or whatever. He has to get it done so he sends it into hubland premature. Who knew it was going to be HOTD? I guess expect the unexpected "they" always say. My poor title choice of the forum post caused a ruckus among a few folks. BTW it was a great hub.

The only thing I can think to do is apologize to everyone here. Why? Because this junk should be the last thing adding extra heart-beats to everyone's rhythm unnecessarily, unless you like the extra adrenaline, Mark. lol

Now is the point I would like to ask you for a few more minutes of your time, if you even made it this far. I am also going to change the topic to....."Please stop the banter and bullying because it is senseless". I will explain why. True story that happened just today.

I tore myself away from the "dink-dink" sound my computer makes when someone posts on HubPages. For just a little while I went to visit a friend of mine. BTW, before the Bud Lights. On my way home, just leaving my friend's house, I passed a young couple with a paraplegic child in a specialized wheel-chair. They were walking along on the sidewalk as it is an absolutely perfect Autumn day here containing every ingredient of the season's description. These people were smiling as if the world was perfect. I thought to myself how dedicated those people have to be. I could only imagine the time needed to care-for and raise this child plus work and bills and.......life. I then thought how lucky I am to be alive and started to well-up. My speed picked-up, my heart and the car. I needed to get home to my wife and boys. I thought of all of you for a moment. Spelling mistake Steve? I drove on.

I thought of billybuc and his announcement of running for President 2012 and it made me laugh. Nobody here in the US is completely pleased with either of the candidates running and we are a bit on edge here. How nice it would be if EVERYBODY liked the best candidate. The candidate was perfect, not only for our good old USA, but for the entire well-being of the world. It was, for a moment, a nice thought. A perfect world with billybuc as Pres. Then I thought maybe it is. I'm not seeing it because of work and again bills etc., blah blah. "They" say it is all what you make of it and change comes only from within. I suddenly needed even more to get home to my wife and boys. Again, I thought of all of you and I drove on.

I passed a home-made roadside memorial and at that point tears began. I remember like yesterday. A young family, two babies crushed by the tractor trailer that didn't stop. Gone in an instant. I thought of my wife and boys and I thought of ya'll. Bickering over words because of me. I thought of my dad, who died of cancer, and how lucky I was to hold his hand as he died. Again I thought of you guys, I feel kinda like I know you, if you don't mind. I drove on.

I walked in the front door of my home. My wife smiled at me as always and continued her business doing whatever she was doing. My oldest (7) jumping up and asking me to download a book for him, my middle guy (4) napping on the couch and the 2 year-old fast asleep in the nursery. All is normal. Then I thought of you guys and went to the computer to see the back-and-forth was continuing. SO!

HEAR YE! HEAR YE! As the newly self-appointed PM of HubPages, life is too short for this stuff......This forum topic is now closed. Go love your family. Hub family too. Any more posts on this thread and you're a rotten egg. Don't forget English majors by now I am drunk, no grammar gripes. Read ya'll later.

Sincerely,

Steve, PM (Proud Moron)

PS Does anyone know who "they" are? (New forum please)
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1. 53
  janderson99posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Here's a good site to help the apprentices learn to spell
  http://www.usspeller.com
  
  Its free and online
  reply report

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