Conservatives in UK set example for Republicans

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   Charles Jamesposted 11 years ago

   A poster produced by the Labour Party.
   
   

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      Credence2posted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Well Charles look likes the same themes resonate everywhere, it always seem to ultimately come down to the haves verses the have nots, true since the days of the pyramids. Happy holidays to you and yours....

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   2uesdayposted 11 years ago

   As I see it neither the Labour ,Conservatives or Liberals have much to laugh about at the moment.
   
   No wait a second, they might have but rest of us have n't.

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   Miriam Weissmannposted 11 years ago

   I've always voted conservative. They're the ones who'll let you make money even if labour says they'll take it away. It was such a shame to see Ted Heath go and let's face it, look what Jim Callaghan did to the country. If you ask me, we've never been the same since they let Maggie Thatcher go and look at the mess the country's in today. My generation, the clever ones of us, have had their chance and made their money, but I feel sorry for the kids of today. They just haven't got a chance.

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      wildernessposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Would you mind coming to the US?  We could use a few more with their head screwed on straight...

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      John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Why, in that case,have taxes always gone up as soon as a conservative government gets its feet under the table? (in Thatchers case she didn't even wait that long before almost doubling value added tax).
      
      Truth be told, the Tories do well for a select few at the expense of the majority.
      
      Most of the countries problems today can be laid at the door of Thatcher, most of the rest at the door of Cameron. You have of course noted how some local authorities are having their budgets cut to the bone whilst some others are having their budgets increased (especially Cameron's constituency).
      
      Mind you, you do appreciate how hard it is for the kids of today under this Tory government so you can't be all bad.

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         Miriam Weissmannposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         You've got to look at it another way, John. The conservatives are more honest than labour. Labour will always lead you up the garden path pretending to be for the worker and what have you when all that really interests them is lining their own pockets. Let's face it, did the worker ever get rich under labour? No. The conservatives do the same as labour but don't pretend to be helping the worker. I'm not a politician, but that's how I see it. If you ask me, we always know where we stand under the conservatives.

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            John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            About 3 million (official figures) workers lost their jobs when Thatcher was in power.
            Cameron's figures are heading the same way.
            They were a damn sight richer under labour than the Tories (and I include Blair's Tory party in that as well)
            
            You are right, we know where we stand under the Tories and I don't want to stand under anybody when they open their bowels.

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               Hollie Thomasposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               They've opened their bowels, John. Unfortunately, the majority of us are in harms way. Employed, unemployed, it doesn't matter to them; we're all scum.

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                  John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  I'm beginning to regret that, it's upsetting my stomach just thinking about it.
                  
                  Still, it is what they are doing to us so I'd better get used to it.
                  
                  I would workout how much income I have lost under the Tories but it would probably upset me too much.

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         Credence2posted 11 years agoin reply to this

         "Truth be told, the Tories do well for a select few at the expense of the majority"
         
         John, Sounds a great deal like our problem with the Republicans here in the states.

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            John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Yes,I think that's the point behind the thread title

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            aa liteposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            But Nu Labour were not that much better.  Remember Mandelson?
            
            Poor and ordinary people probably did better under Blair and Brown, but then it was a time of economic prosperity, which wasn't real as it turned out, but at that time they acted like it was and at least used some of the loot in tax credits etc.
            
            Not that I am in any way defending the Tories.  I just don't think Labour are much better.  The bigger question is: in a democracy don't people get the government they deserve?

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               Miriam Weissmannposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               If you ask me, aa lite, that depends on the choices.

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   John Holdenposted 11 years ago

   aa  lite, you no doubt remember how Blair said how much he admired Thatcher and saw no need to change her policies, and how Thatcher to all intents and purposes gave Blair her blessing and nominated him as her natural successor?

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      Hollie Thomasposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Unfortunately, and in spite of growing up within a home which was full of Labour activists, I see one nation Labour (please!) as the re-invented New Labour. There may be some albeit subtle  differences from the Tories, but they are just that, subtle and of no real worth. The point is Miriam, that the Labour party of today are so far removed from their roots, that they might as well be tories.
      
      Nevertheless, there are other left wing parties, there are options. In 2015, I predict a coalition between the Labour Party and the Greens- maybe I'm an optimist.

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         aa liteposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         I actually quite like that Ed Miliiband chap, and quite a few others in the opposition.  The problem is I like them in opposition, I am pretty sure that if they get into government they will bed quite bad.
         
         But the question is, do you think if Labour really went back to their roots, would they have any chance of getting elected?  I suspect not, which is why Ed squirms so much when he is being "trapped" into sounding leftist. 
         
         The main thing that drives politicians is to get elected.  If Labour is scared to sound like the old labour, it is because they reckon the electorate would not support it, I am sure that some people would be very happy, but not enough of them to make a difference.  Although I have to say I think it's quite positive that  the "people on benefits are all scroungers" rhetoric doesn't seem to have worked for the Tories.

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            Hollie Thomasposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            I actually quite like that Ed Miliiband chap, and quite a few others in the opposition.  The problem is I like them in opposition, I am pretty sure that if they get into government they will bed quite bad.
            
            I giggled when I read your first sentence aa, because I remember thinking that I quite liked TB, too. Then I read the remainder, clearly we are on the same page.
            
            But the question is, do you think if Labour really went back to their roots, would they have any chance of getting elected?  I suspect not, which is why Ed squirms so much when he is being "trapped" into sounding leftist.
            
            Absolutely not, they're like feminists, will be completely vilified and ridiculed when they attempt to bring a different perspective, attempt to educate the masses, or challenge the ruling political norms. HOWEVER, we live in a time where the levels of education are higher- generally speaking more people are accepting of minority groups, we are a multicultural society- we endorse gay marriage, single parents etc.
            
            ALSO, many of the families who've been hit by the Tory massacre are not the feckless unemployed scroungers as the tories would have us believe. They are ordinary people, middle class people, well educated people. This all people on benefits are work shy scoundrels may have had some impact in the eighties- but not now. In fact, other than the completely privileged, the question is, who have the Torys not P****** off?
            
            What worries me is that unless they are completely deluded, the Tories know that they will not be re-elected come 2015, and they seem not to care. Why is that? Are the changes going to be irreversible?

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      aa liteposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Absolutely!  I think roughly Blair and Brown's strategy was to look after the rich and corporations, make sure nothing stood in the way of them getting filthy rich.  However to appease their leftist credentials they tried to redistribute some of that loot,from taxes, to the poor and ordinary people through tax credits, creating jobs in the public sector etc. etc.
      
      The big problem with the plan was that the economy was built on the financial house of cards and on private debt.  Unregulated free market turns out to be as bad as too much regulation.
      
      But the problem is: why does labour have to sound like the Tories to have a chance to be elected?

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   WriteAngledposted 11 years ago

   I used to campaign for Labour a long time ago. I stopped when Tony Benn lost the leadership vote the first time around. He was one of the few people in the higher echelons of Labour who had retained principles and decency.
   
   When sleazeball Blair became elected as leader, I vowed never to vote for Labour again. I was disgusted that they had chosen someone who was void of all principles. Later developments, including the rise of the nauseating Ed Balls strengthened my opinion.
   
   Now, I really do not care what mess England digs itself into. I look forward to Scotland becoming independent and hope Wales will follow suit one day. I support Plaid Cymru as a refreshing alternative to the corrupt machinations of Labour in South Wales.

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      aa liteposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Absolutely agree about sleaze ball Blair.  What he's been doing since he left government is just as disgusting, waltzing around the world, amassing a fortune and avoiding paying taxes.

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      Hollie Thomasposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      I've had the pleasure of seeing Leanne Wood on Question Time, a couple of times.I noted that her background was in Probation.

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         WriteAngledposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         Leanne has also worked with Women's Aid.
         
         As a politician, in addition to national policies, she always focused on the importance of small-scale, very local activities such as allotments, food banks, etc. She has some truly visionary ideas in her Greenprint for the Valleys.
         
         I had the privilege, a couple of years ago, of spending a week in close quarters (dormitory with bunk beds and communal cooking) with Leanne on a Welsh language "bootcamp". That is where she gained my enormous respect for her humanity, lack of pretentiousness and total transparency. Unlike most politicians, Leanne is truly WSYIWYG.
         
         I really enjoyed writing a hub about her, even though it gets very few views.

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   e-fiveposted 11 years ago

   I'm in the US and I only vaguely follow Brit politics.  It seems to me that British (or Canadian or Australian) Conservatives are much more liberal than an average American Democrat.  No British politician would consider privatizing the national health care system.  American conservatives today are radical and out of step with the 21st Century.  They don't believe in science or practicality, and they want to force people into living by rules that benefit some cultures or segments of society over others.

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      Credence2posted 11 years agoin reply to this

      I pass on a big 10-4 for that comment, efive!

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      John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Actually that is exactly what the current bunch are trying to do.

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         aa liteposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         Exactly, but they are doing it by "stealth".  Also privatising the NHS actually started under labour, the current bunch are just doing it more.

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            EmpressFelicityposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Yes, there are actually far more similarities between Labour and the Conservatives than there are differences.
            
            When it comes to NHS privatisation, I'm a bit confused and would welcome a jargon-free explanation. As far as I can make out, the main changes are to do with (a) giving local authorities control of the healthcare budget in their area, and (b) allowing more contracting out of healthcare services to private companies. I can't see that either of these changes would necessarily lead to us being made to pay for our healthcare as individuals, rather than having the healthcare budget come from National Insurance/lottery money as at present.
            
            If anyone knows different, then I'm all ears lol.

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               aa liteposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               I think when people talk about NHS "privatisation" they don't mean it in the sense that people will have to pay for healthcare, but the fear that opening it up for-profit companies will negatively affect the quality of the free service.
               
               Some of the worries are the huge increase in the percentage of beds, appointments etc. NHS hospitals will be allowed to allocate to private patients.  I think it used to be 2% but according to reports a while ago the bill was joing to increase that to 50% (I'm not sure what the final outcome was, and I don't really have time to find out).  Obviously the fear is that this will greatly increase waiting times etc.
               
               There were also worries about how the new NHS will be affected by EU competition law.  I can't remember the details of that.
               
               Many people hold extremist views about the private vs. the public sector.  Some believe that the private is always better and more efficient than the public, while others hate anything that has a profit motive. 
               
               I think the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle, although in view of the G4 olympics security Snafu, the little problems with the financial sector, the far from successful farming out of finding jobs for the unemployed to the company of that hideous woman who was Cameron's "family czar" (in itself a pretty disgusting concept), I really don't see how any sane person can argue that private is always better than public.

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                  EmpressFelicityposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  A lot of the corruption and distortion (for want of a better word) that arises from privatisation stems from the fact that the privatised organisation/company still works hand in glove with the government. That family czar Emma Harrison (thank you Google) was given government money to train people and help them get jobs, which she failed to use for its intended purpose. She no doubt got away with it for so long because her client (the government) was too inefficient/corrupt/lazy to check up on her. If she'd been paid by a private company to provide a training service for its employees, you can bet that company would have been on her case a lot sooner. Then you have things like private finance initiatives (which should IMO be renamed *pirate* finance initiatives), and the G4 Olympics security bungle that you mention. I don't think that the health service will be any different. You already have privatised cleaning services in hospitals, and one hears horror stories about them not doing their jobs properly, with hospital infections and filthy wards being the result.
                  
                  In truth, I don't know what the best answer is regarding privatisation. I suppose the benchmark is "if service X were privatised, could there be genuine competition (i.e. not a monopoly), and could it run without intervention from the government?" In the case of something like - say - water, I'd say the answer was a definite "no". I am stuck with Southern Water. I can't get my water from any other company, because of where I live. Not only that, but it's possible for water companies to be foreign-owned. This potentially has quite scary implications - suppose we end up at war with the country concerned? Could they blackmail us ("you vill zurrender or we poison Kent and Sussex's water supply Muhahahahahaha!")?

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                     aa liteposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                     The thing that strikes me most, is how in this huge drive for privatisation and genuflecting to the free market, the basic principles behind the free market have been lost. 
                     
                     Lack of competition is one problem.  Even with the utilities that we can choose, there isn't really much to choose from, just a few big companies, and it is far from clear to me that I would be better off if I moved my gas and electricity to another company, it is far from clear to me that I would be better off, as far as I can tell they all commit the major sin of exploitation, quick to raise prices when wholesale gas prices rise, very slow to lower then when they go down.
                     
                     The basic idea of the free market is that providing better and cheaper services will lead to success, not doing so will lead to failure.  Strangely that rarely applies to the big players in our privatised world.  You can see why, if a company that makes amusing gadgets doesn't succeed, there is no problem if it goes down, but if a private company that runs care homes, or the banking sector screws up, the State has to interfere and help out.  If you take out the real competition and failure out of the equation you don't have a free market, you have welfare for big corporations and millionaires.

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            John Holdenposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            It would have been more honest for the Labour party to have not changed its name to New Labour, but New Conservative.

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               jandeeposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               If a miracle were to happen and we /somebody started  a n old Labour party my question is how would we prevent infiltration ?

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                  Hollie Thomasposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  We couldn't. Hence the birth of the nauseating New Labour and One Nation Labour party. Still, old Labour have assembled elsewhere and, one day, the misfits that occupy the front benches of the current opposition will need them.

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   John Holdenposted 11 years ago

   EmpressFelicity, the NHS won't disappear as it appeared. There'll be no announcement that as from this day the NHS will cease to exist.
   Instead what we will see (are already seeing) is a gradual erosion. More services being contracted out and then when faced with a six month wait for treatment, the subtle letter from the contractor suggesting that if you were to pay the contractor £X000, then rather than wait six months for your treatment you can have it instantly and if you take out insurance with the contractor then you wont have to pay anything!
   
   Eventually the NHS will become like Medicare in the USA, just there to provide basic healthcare for those who can't afford private insurance, oh, and you won't actually see any reduction in your tax bill either.

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      jandeeposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Don't forget the schools John.  Almost all are academies ! Oh woe is me !  All the stamps we've paid, and the unemployed have stamps paid  so where is it all ??

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   John Holdenposted 11 years ago

   It's not just water Empress, most of our utilities are now foreign owned, along with most businesses!

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