So..........
I thought you were going to bed?
Happy New Year, Mark.
The idea that the state should legally prevent parents from teaching religion to their children is a chilling reminder of Orwellian Newspeak. {1} It conjures scary images of the Thinkpol eliminating ideas and declaring personal religious beliefs as thoughtcrimes. In a free society, Mark, parents conveying ideas to their children is not child abuse. Forcing all children to be Knowles approved goodthinkers is child abuse.
I am hoping, Mark, you have continued success in the New Year.
{1} http://www.newspeakdictionary.com/ns-dict.htmlYou just weren't paying attention.
Good Evening, Mark. Many thanks for your prompt comments.
Please note how much of your reply is not related to what I said. Your initial position is parents “should be prevented …Legally if necessary” from teaching their children anything Mark Knowles considers to be “child abuse.” I read you as clearly being in favor of the Thinkpol eliminating ideas and declaring personal religious beliefs as thoughtcrimes.
Because I disagreed with your position, you made several assumptions about me, ignored what I said about usurping parental authority, and went about attacking your own false assumptions:
“I suspect that is because you hold some irrational religious beliefs yourself and it bothers you that if you cannot indoctrinate your children into those beliefs at a young age - they will not be likely to agree with them.”
”Teaching a 4 year old that evolution is a lie and the sky Daddy will burn them in hell for not believing is mental child abuse.”
”you favor ritual child mutilation and mental child abuse”
“This is why the Catholic Church gets away with so many pedophiles.”
“Do you derive some personal authority from teaching children religious hate?”
“Weird that you are OK with only certain forms of child abuse - as long as they are based on a particular religion.”
“I assume you are not OK with other forms of mental child abuse.”
Every one of these statements is a false assumption on your part.
With your permission, let us stick with your original statement:
“I think religious people who do this and try to insert their beliefs onto children are child abusers and should be prevented from doing so. Legally if necessary - as we deal with other forms of child abuse.”
Do you advocate legally preventing parents from teaching their children anything Mark Knowles considers as “child abuse?” On the other hand, if Mark Knowles is not the one to decide what is “child abuse” then who is? Your personal non-religious beliefs, Mark, should have nothing to do with who determines what is “child abuse.”
Finally, Mark, in the immortal words of Adam Clayton Powell, Jr., keep the faith , Baby!Hi, Mark. It is a pleasure to talk with you once again.
Forgive me if I try to hold you on topic. In your reply, you say, “I originally stated something along the lines of ’teaching children that evolution is a lie and replacing it with a belief in a god that will punish them for not believing,’ is child abuse.” This not entirely true. Your original declaration was “I think religious people who do this and try to insert their beliefs onto children are child abusers and should be prevented from doing so. Legally if necessary - as we deal with other forms of child abuse.” (See Quilligrapher desperately trying to keep the goal posts from moving.)
After which, I ask you for a clarification: “Do you advocate preventing parents from teaching their children anything Mark Knowles considers as ‘child abuse?’”
You try in your first sentence to shift the focus to me: “So - you do agree with me that child abuse should be illegal? Or not?”(See Mark trying to move the goal posts to another stadium.) The premise in your stated position is not if “child abuse should be illegal.” The premise is whether you advocate legally preventing parents from teaching their children everything you, Mark Knowles, consider as “child abuse?”
Most everything else in your reply is more of the same smoke and mirrors. Specifically...
“Perhaps you could state your position on child abuse”
“Do you not agree that cutting off a part of a baby's penis for religious reasons is child abuse?”
“Do you not agree that keeping a child out of the school system in order to teach them religious dogma instead of actual facts is child abuse?”
“ That you think child abuse should be left to the parents.”
“The real issue seems to be that you do not agree with my assessment that teaching religious dogma to children as a fact is child abuse?”
“Your defense of teaching nonsense to children instead of facts because your religion is threatened.”
“Your statements … have more to do with defending your irrational beliefs and your desire that they be propagated though child indoctrination.”
“Are you going to continue to misdirect the discussion towards that lie that parents are ‘teaching religion to their children,’ when they are in fact indoctrinating them into a religious cult.”
These are mostly false assumptions and an attempt to divert attention away from your original statement. I do not see why you try so hard to question what you assume to be my beliefs when the issue is you and your beliefs. Do you advocate legally preventing parents from teaching their children anything that you, Mark Knowles, personally consider as “child abuse?”
So once again, Mark, you originally said you “think religious people who do this and try to insert their beliefs onto children are child abusers and should be prevented from doing so. Legally if necessary - as we deal with other forms of child abuse.” This pronouncement seems to advocate legally preventing parents from teaching their children any ideas Mark Knowles considers as “child abuse?” If not Mark Knowles, then who will define the abusive teaching you wish to ban, a board of scientists, educators, psychologist, atheists, or other parents?
Your answer would be welcomed but, obviously, you need not answer if you choose not to. Your position seems fairly clear. Parents do not have the right to teach their children anything Mark Knowles deems they should not teach because he has declared it “child abuse” thereby justifying the force of law. This is not a matter of dogma but of a family’s right to live with a belief system that is no threat to your own. None of my beliefs are really important, Mark, particularly my belief that your position resembles Big Brother, destroying ideas with which you disagree, and advocating that your philosophical views be legally forced on the rest of the world.
Thank you again for sharing, Mark. How wonderful it is to express different perspectives without implying one of us is inferior.
Allow me to leave you with one more thought. “Half the people in the world think that the metaphors of their religious traditions, for example, are facts. And the other half contends that they are not facts at all. As a result we have people who consider themselves believers because they accept metaphors as facts, and we have others who classify themselves as atheists because they think religious metaphors are lies.” ― Joseph Campbell
This is the way these abusive atheists purport their ideas upon others. Bullying, insulting and making false conclusions, ignoring posts context and coloring statements.
Its all propaganda designed to spur a set of reactions but is hardly worthy of the name debate or discussion. Its simply the case of those who know less have the most to say.
If mark wants the world to believe as he does for whatever misguided reasons he wants to put forth as his truth, he is welcomed to try, although we cannot do the same, hmmm, and albeit more honesty would be appreciated.
This is why attitudes like yours, mark, causes wars.
I did not need to go to church to hear about satan or know of an underworld i just have to read all your posts.
I could have grabbed the idea from the illyad and i suppose you want that book burned now. I can get a belief in vampires from the local bookstore i guess we should stop this false doctrine also huh. Do you propose burning the book store that would teach your son to become a fan or admirer of vampirism? Thank you for being more aggressive than many many many christians i know in life, today. I thank God i see through your smoke and mirrors and lust to (legally) control the minds of all people everywhere.
If you really want to stop child abuse, get better parental blocks on the television set, stop them reading newspapers, scrutinize everything taught in schools and temper the friends they have and those they might accidentally bump into on the sidewalk. Yes indeed, do not let them out of your sight!! On second thought, this might be equated by some children to be bullying,
Hey there, ATM. It has been a long while since we exchange ideas. Very nice to see you here.
I certainly appreciate your telling me what Mark was referring to.
You said, “They [parents] are telling their children to believe in a particular deity and to practice particular rituals and to follow the scriptures and dogma of that religion, which will usually include teaching an intolerance to others who don't share the faith.”
In this regard, I have two opinions:
First, your remark seems to be teaching your own intolerance to others who do not share your disbelief in faith.
Secondly, teaching children is the primary responsibility of parents. Although many rely on the state to provide staff and facilities, they can never delegate that responsibility to anyone else, least of all to you and Mark! Consider for a moment that some parents fulfill that responsibility on their own by home-schooling their children to meet specific state imposed guidelines and standards. Your suggestion that the state should also set standards governing religious home schooling is too outrageous to comprehend!
Another comment is particularly interesting to me: “because Mark, like so many of the rest of us, would like children to actually be taught about religions, just like they're taught about so many other subjects…” With all due respect, what you and Mark would like a parent to teach their children is not something to be forced on them by you or by others. That responsibility lies solely with parents but thank you for your suggestions.
As for your saying, “like so many of us,” it is my opinion that the number of people in favor of an idea is never a measure of its value.
I thank you, ATM, for taking the time to comment on my remarks. I appreciate reading your ideas. Happy New Year!
Was I not clear before? I think indoctrinating children into religious cults and teaching them nonsense as reality is child abuse.
Don't understand how you did not understand that. Probably too busy researching all the things you promised to show me.
- Emile Rposted 11 years ago
0Most of these theists (or whatever she is) never seem to get that. Atheism isn't a philosophy - it is a lack of belief in god/s. That is all. While I may call myself a righteous atheist - http://wp.me/p2Jz2C-7 - I cannot and do not claim to be speaking for anyone else.
It is a lot easier with the Christians. They say they are a Christian - we can go look in the bible and see what they are supposed to be believing. I guess we need a manifesto or something?
Greetings, “Brother.”
Here we have another one of your sermons promoting religious intolerance and Jesus with a lower case "j." Show Muslims respect and you will receive respect in return.
You have already established that your spiritual beliefs have no value to anyone. You are a self-proclaimed “greeter” and your words clearly reveal a lack of respect for one Hubber who had declined your brand of hypocrisy.
Let us have a look at the spiritual fiber of Brotheryochanan from the Hubpages thread “earnestshub, you will be sorely missed.”
“So much i could say but it would be construed as just nasty meanness.
and you'd probably be right.
"I don't know where you get this mr nice guy stuff from? My perception is that he lied constantly, printed misinformation willingly, made himself out to be someone who he wasn't. Was blatantly rude beyond what is normal. He spewed crap like it was second nature and the list goes on.
"The only thing i think he knew was cars.
"I am just glad he isn't going to be in torments the rest of eternity, burned by the fires of hell - cuz that don't exist. He went peaceful - so we are told and he will get what he wanted - nothingness after death. He could have done so much better but he held onto the anger.
"Lets hope others find God through loss.”
– Brotheryochanan {1}
I often imagine his widow, his family, and his grandchildren reading your parting words about him.
Sleep well, "Brother."
{1} http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/88788?p … ost1898397
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