True forgiveness, we will forgive the bigots and the hateful.
Many people throw around the word forgiveness, but rarely do they embrace the virtue, forgiveness is about sacrifice, sacrificing primal justice and righteous anger. That is what we must do, times are changing and equality for our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters is just around the corner. Majority opinion has changed and quickly the power will lie with the progressives on the issue, we must carefully avoid the temptation of retribution, we MUST forgive, the deaths of so many thousands, the suicides of so many hundreds of thousands due to that bigotry this we must forgive, difficult as it must be to us.
I hope we can do that for those misguided people and for ourselves.You are absolutely right, and I for one think we should start by apologizing to the members of NAMBLA by making them all scout masters.
Nice try, NAMBLA has nothing to do with equality for gay people, it may be news to you but pedophiles and gay people are different things. Indeed statistically gay people are less likely to be pedophiles according to research.
http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/h … ation.html
Don't worry I forgive your ignorance
Oh I know the difference. But since we want to be completely fair I think I should be able to go camping with a bunch of sixteen year old girl scouts so my rights aren't infringed on as well.
And I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that 99.9% of people who have raped or molested little boys were of the same gender.Oh I trust you with the girls
OF course people being able to go on camp with the children of others is not required fro equality under the law so it's totally irrelevant.
As to your edit, the majority are normally attracted to women, a large portion have no adult desire whatever and are simply fixated on children. Hardly any have ever slept with an adult of their own sex.It is if they haven't been caught. Then they just look like regular law abiding citizens to everyone else until proven otherwise. I've got four daughters and there is no way in hell they would ever be permitted to go camping with another man. Likewise if I had a son and found out that he was going camping with a homosexual man he would not be going. I'm am not accusing every man out there of being potential pedophiles, but common sense and the safety of children should prevail over political correctness.
I would never let my kids go camping with a man unless he was family but his sexuality would and should have nothing to do with it. Indeed as noted gay people are less likely to hurt children. SO it's pretty irrelevant to this topic.
As I said before All the people who rape little boys are of the same gender, that is what we call same sex attraction.
Gay people and pedophiles have completely different attractions, it's like saying straight men are equivalent to men who molest girls or that it would be better to send gay men with the girl scouts.
So you are saying that there is a difference between say, a sixteen year old boy and an eighteen year old boy? And that two year gap constitutes a difference in the thought process between a would be predator and an innocent experiment in consensual man love?
People who have sex with sixteen year old's are not definitionaly pedophiles. It is statutory rape but pedophilia relates to the offense against a pre-puberty child and statutory rape to a post puberty child.
So yes there is a huge difference between someone who wants to have sex with people younger than say twelve and someone who is having consensual sex with another adult.
Again it's as different as the separation between a straight man and a male pedophile who molests girls, they are radically and completely different. Neither will find the other's taste to be sexually appealing.This sounds like you are saying that a 12 year old is an adult. Seriously?
Many of the illegal aliens entering Arizona have a different view on pedophilia. You see, it's common practice to have sex with minors as young as 12 years old in Mexico. Then, many of these "undocumented workers" come to Arizona. How do you think that works out for many of the young girls in Arizona? Whether it's pedophilia or consensual sex with a 12 year old girl, it's sick at best, very sick. Either way, it's just wrong, immoral.
If you would like a bit of proof, please see this source (note the word Pulitzer):
http://www.pulitzer.org/archives/6709My post says no such thing, actually it says exactly the opposite that they are completely different.
"So yes there is a huge difference between someone who wants to have sex with people younger than say twelve and someone who is having consensual sex with another adult." (Adult being 18+)
As for your article yeah, I neither find it surprising nor indicative of anything, in first world countries around the world poverty forces young girls and their families into prostitution, it's terrible that it happens and more often than not it's not actually for people from that country that they are prostituted, wealthy men from first world countries (like the US) travel to other countries where they can commit such acts with less chance of punishment. Thailand for example has become renowned for exactly that and in the southern hemisphere several nations (like Australia ) have started convicting nationals of crimes committed in Thailand when they return.
The other issue is simply rape, rapes occur everywhere and yes they are terrible and often in religious communities like Mexico, and large parts of the US people are too ashamed to report them, Mexico's rate of rape is actually lower than the US's statistically (and yes that includes estimates for non reported crimes)
So using that as an anti illegal statement is completely useless.
Not to mention if your argument was true that would be just more reason to accept illegals so we can protect their children from such crimes with our legal framework which is better than Mexico's.So you want pedophiles to come to this country so they will get properly prosecuted?
I'm looking at my town's list of sex offenders and I think we are all stocked up over here.I would prefer that they be arrested and punished which is far more likely here.
Totally off thread topic though.So you would like to see the American public paying for the prosecution and detainment of countless Mexican pedophiles. That's interesting, but why stop at Mexicans? Why not round up all the pedophiles in the world and send them here for free room and board? We could be the worlds pedophile prosecution center!
I could just see our neighborhoods chalked full of halfway houses for peds to no end, it'll be great! perhaps then NAMBLA will get the respect they deserve after millions of kiddie diddlers gain the opportunity to vote in mass quantity for their right to free man/boy love! Just think of the rise in sales of black vans too! It's a win, win!Economic stimulus and a larger workforce?! it's a win win indeed!
(sorry but that does not deserve a serious answer though I wills ay that Mexicans are no more pedophiles than Americans)
But seriously thread topic.Men in Mexico are often more willing to have sex with minors. It's a fact. Call it consensual or call it what you want, but sex with a thirteen year old is wrong. I can provide a multitude of proof. My last source was pretty solid. . .you know the whole Pulitzer thing?
Yeah sex with thirteen years old is wrong, it happens everywhere though, prove it happens more in Mexico, as I said the rape rate in Mexico is statistically lower, have not been able to find any statistics on having sex with thirteen year old's though.
Prove it, the Pulitzer piece was an opinion piece that said no such thing it just noted that women were less likely to report rapes and that the police and justice system were less likely to take action on it it mentioned two girls which had been raped one fifteen one thirteen none of which proves anything about Mexican people being more willing to rape girls.
Slandering Mexicans is pretty transparent, I hesitate to use the correct word for it because I don;t like throwing it around.You won't say it, because if you have half a brain and you've read what I have said in this and other forums, you know you are totally wrong. Yeah, don't throw it around, because it's wrong. Some of my friends and family are Hispanic, people I love. In fact, two family members, and their children, are Hispanic and immigrants, one from Mexico and another from South America. I will say it AGAIN, because evidently, you don't listen; perhaps you only hear what you want to hear. I AM for legal immigration and green cards. This has nothing to do with race. It has everything to do with keeping people safe. It is SO typical of the left to play the race card. This is about security and safety, not race. By the way, there are Hispanic organizations in Arizona that totally agree with me on this. Do you want to use the term on them too? Your implied statement is offensive and unwarranted. It is groundless.
Josak, I've provided enough evidence in this and other forums. You don't want evidence, unless it supports your claim. The PULITZER piece indicates that rape statistics in Mexico are suspect because of a lack of interest in protecting young girls; it's cultural. That culture floods across the border and into America, and it's not one we want here. Not all culture is good.
Here's something from a state that isn't even a border state:
http://www.ncfire.info/NC%20Sex%20Crime … ildren.pdf
Yep. I know you'll say this is a worthless source too. You are in denial about Mexico, illegal aliens, and the crime that many of them bring to America.Your comments were directed at Mexican men not illegals in reference to your hilariously wrong theory that you have been unable to prove statistically in the least that Mexican people are more likely to be pedophiles. Oh I know you have lots of Mexican friends
List a statistical source and we can talk otherwise you really have nothing. Opinion pieces don't count for anything.
I only have one statistical source on the issue I can find but it claims quite the opposite that illegals commit 15% fewer crimes against children than native Americans.
http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2012/ … americans/Josak,
I have provided numerous statistics, straight from the government. I have provided statistics from CBS and other credible sources. No source on the planet is good enough for you, unless you want to believe it. It's comical at this point. In your haste to discredit anybody who disagrees with you, you have discredited yourself.
My statement was not directed at all Mexican men; it was directed at some Mexican men. The point that I have tried to make, one that somehow seems to elude you, is that there is a greater likelihood of innocent people suffering in America because people like you are so adamant that we must keep allowing illegal aliens here. Mexico is not all lollipops, rainbows, and unicorns. It has a lot of crime. Further, the crime statistics provided by Mexico are almost as comical as your inability to accept the reality of the situation. Yes, I stand behind my statement. In Mexico, it is common for men to have sex with young girls, and it is far more accepted than in America. If it's true, that makes me right, not a racist. Have you ever even been to Mexico? I have been there. Your statistics are as wrong as you are about me.
Your statement about me is based on arrogance, ignorance, and an attempt to win a debate. I, too, have a statement for people who say things like you do. I, too, will abstain from using it.Nope on this issue have provided absolutely no credible sources except for opinion pieces, no statistical data at all. Your comment was not addressed at illegals it was addressed at Mexicans. Yup I lived in Mexico on my way up the continent I lived there for a couple of years. I know what Mexico is like, there is a lot of crime due to poverty but and I saw no indication that men were allowed to have sex with girls. I in fact saw exactly the opposite, it's true people did not take it to the courts as much if it happened but our culture is one driven honor and family, and if someone violates your family then justice is taken in one's own hands, as a consequence Mexican men would be a lot more likely to consider the consequences which are much worse than a couple of years in jail.
Yeah I remember you citing sources, you only posted one good source from the governemnt with raw data, it turned out to not be about illegals but all immigrants and to show they committed less crime. Stellar record.
Present a single statistical source that backs your claim that Mexicans have sex with children more, but you won't because you can't as usual.When you say "due to poverty," you are making excuses. On one hand, you say there isn't a lot of crime, and on the other, you say there is a lot of crime that is "due to poverty." That's not a stellar record on being consistent. It's pretty wishy-washy.
If God enlightened you on this subject, you'd disagree until you were told to think otherwise by one of your liberal studies. No evidence I can provide would be sufficient in your distorted reality.
It's not racist when it's true. You are delusional. Sexual crimes against young girls occur all the time in Mexico. It is cultural. Laws are not enforced, and young girls are not protected the way they should be. You've lectured me before on not being compassionate. When I try to speak up to protect people, you justify the crime rate of illegal aliens by saying it's because of poverty, opportunity, or because illegal aliens commit less crime than Americans, which is fabrication of data. Tell that to the victims, and see how compassionate they consider you to be.
Primary sources are hard to come by when it comes to crime committed by illegal aliens. You see, if you raise any concerns, you’re labeled a racist by some raging liberal. Political correctness isn't protecting our children. It's not racism when it's true.
Study: 1 Million Sex Crimes by Illegals
Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2006/05/36410/#WP8t3FxwHAcHhrVJ.99
http://www.wnd.com/2006/05/36410/
More evidence that young girls are not being protected by the culture and government of Mexico:
"Prostitution in Mexico is legal, but the laws vary by state. 18 of the 32 states of Mexico regulate prostitution.[1] Prostitution involving minors under 18 is illegal, but such activities are common and represent a serious problem.[2] Some Mexican cities have enacted tolerance zones which allow regulated prostitution and function as red light districts. In most parts of the country pimping is illegal. The government provides shelter for former prostitutes."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_MexicoI never said crime in Mexico was low i said rape was lower, rape and child abuse are not financially motivated crimes, drug dealing, theft etc. are those are the crimes that Mexico has a problem with.
You have not provided any evidence if you did I would acknowledge it, simple as that.
Maybe if it were provably true but it's not.
Your first link is a perfect example of what Quilligrapher and myself are always talking about with your links, you either don't read them and they don't support your argument or just as often (as in this case) they provide no links to this supposed data, your article mentioned a study with no links to it, the only link is not for the study but for the organization that apparently conducted it and that link is 404 failed. I googled for the group "Violent Crime Institute" and there is no indication I could see that it even exists.
So I continued to do my best to find your evidence, I googled the supposed author of this study Deborah Schurman-Kauflin the only person of that name of any note in the field is now a practicing psychic medium.
I am being absolutely honest when I say I did my best to investigate your claim (which contradicts the several studies I have linked to from reputable bodies with the experimental data available) but there is nothing there, that is not evidence you posted, it's a joke.
Your next piece is about prostitution in Mexico and how despite it being illegal some minors work in the industry, that happens everywhere in the world without exception, here are just two examples of children working in prostitution in the US, one case involving many children directly from the FBI, both are from 2011.
http://www.fbi.gov/newyork/press-releas … n-new-york
http://www.fbi.gov/minneapolis/press-re … 41511a.htm
So I that is completely irrelevant to the discussion and is completely non statistical.
You are yet to raise a single substantiated or statistical point to back this flat out offensive and discriminatory lie that Mexicans are more likely to be pedophiles, if it were true that would be one thing since it's not it's quite another.Quilligrapher and Josak question the validity of both my data and my reading of that data. I guess that's conclusive proof that the data is wrong, I'm wrong, or the liberal point of view is right. I guess it's true, because two liberals agree on it. This is hysterical. Where do you get this stuff? Is there some site or some study? Please provide a workable link, so I can have more comic relief.
That's your misguided opinion. I have provided multiple sources that are relevant. You just don't want them to be relevant, because they do not support your liberal world. Consequently, you spend your your time trying to discredit the source without even focusing on what the message is. I've seen you quote unknown sources. Why are yours more relevant . . . because you say they are or because you claim to have read them? LOL
Crime statistics from Mexico are suspect. You SHOULD know that. Sex can be a financial crime, along with human trafficking. Your typical liberal playbook is amusingly predictable. That's why I supplied the second source about prostitution.
Again, you love to say that these same crimes happen in America too. Do you really think that is a valid statement? That’s really a pathetic argument. Your justification is that because it happens in America, it’s okay to bring more of it to America. When that argument doesn’t work, you say that illegal aliens commit less crime than Americans. You provide data, from sources that are unknown, and claim that the data is precisely accurate. I bet your “data” makes the victims feel so much better. You provide absolutely no plan of action other than disputing data and sources.
No data could prove my point with you. No source would be credible. You believe what you want to believe, and you spend all your time trying to find any angle to make your argument. When somebody provides evidence to the contrary, you discredit the source rather than debating. There are many sources that have the same conclusion, yet you spend your time researching the link to discredit it. That is disingenuous research. Anybody really interested in finding the truth would research the conclusion and the data, not every detail related to a source. There are many, many sources that have the same conclusion, but you don't really care about that. Again, all you want to do is "win" a debate; you use any tactic to do so, regardless of whether or not you are right. It's disdainful.No you don't post data, you posted articles with no evidence at all. You always do you have not posted a single reliable source, no data, no direct sources, no studies, no statistical data, no citations, no links to the studies, NOTHING.
Post a link that references a study that actually exists and you can find.
You can get mad all you like but it is incredibly transparent, you can't prove a thing because you don't have any data to back your claims.
As I said read your links and check that they are actually referencing and citing a real study this is stuff you should have learned in primary school.
I'm glad you clarified your point about 18 years of age being an adult.
You're absolutely delusional about Mexico.
Here's a quote for you:
“Not all illegal aliens are crossing into the United States to find work. Law enforcement officials indicate that there are individuals coming across the border who are forced to leave their home countries because of criminal activities. These dangerous criminals are fleeing the law in other countries and seeking refuge in the United States.”
Majority Staff Report of the House Committee on Homeland Security\
Denying permission is one thing, stopping them from doing so is another, usually with failed results. Good luck with that.
In other words, it's well known that the man is homosexual, yet he is taking the time to be a scout leader, much like any other guy taking the time to be a scout leader.There is absolutely no relationship between being a pedophile and a gay man. A true pedophile is usually unable to relate to other adults in any meaningful way.
Exclusive pedophiles/hebophiles: A true pedophiles is only interested in pre-pubescent children, usually under the age of 12, by the time the child reaches puberty they are no longer useful. This is their ONLY sexual interest, gender is irrelevant because the relationship is about power and control- nothing more. Even if the abuser manages to form and develop a relationship with another adult, it will only be to gain access to the age group that they have targeted.
A Hebophile on the other hand, is interested in children around the age of puberty, usually over the age 12, as they grow up they are also no longer useful. Again, the gender of the victim is irrelevant to the abuser- another power and control relationship. Pubescent children are their only sexual interest.
Gay men have relationships with gay men- not a perverse or abusive relationship, just a same gender one.Yeah, the penis goes in the butt, it's gay, you can't get around it. It's like Afghan's saying that it's not gay unless they want to get married, so they can fool around with men or kids without being labeled a homosexual. And, as we all know, is a death sentence in that country.
What on earth are you waffling on about? The difference between an abusive relationship ( where under age children are concerned) is not about where the penis goes- but the age of the partners. If you just want to have a homophobic, Islamophobic rant, then have one, leave pedophilia out of it, because you clearly know nothing about the topic- You're latest comment indicates that you can't differentiate between an abusive relationship and a same sex relationship, even when presented with the evidence.
So then by your logic, I am a same ageafile because I'm the kind of prevert that likes having sex with women that are the same age as me. Whereas people who like to get their boogie on with someone who is ten years younger than them is a cradle robber, anything younger than that and they're Hugh Hefner. So those dudes are not interested in the gender, it's purely about overpowering somebody. Except when it's reversed, then they are like submissive people, regardless of the gender of person that is taking advantage of them, cause they like it anyways. Except of course if they are under the age of thirteen because that is a magical number that separates pedophiles from the other preverts, Since, after all, everyone is a prevert of some type.
The difference is between children who cannot understand the consequences of sex and therefore cannot possibly consent and adults.
People who are attracted to CHILDREN are more unlikely to be attracted to men as well than any other sexual preference. Men who are attracted to children have very different sexual appetites than someone who is attracted to men and neither will find the other's sexual appetite appealing. Just as you presumably do not find twelve year old girls sexually appealing gay people don't find 12 year old boys attractive.
So i repeat you are as a presumably straight male attracted to women more likely to be a child molester than a gay man who is attracted to men. So this discussion is utterly irrelevant.So then by your logic, I am a same ageafile because I'm the kind of prevert that likes having sex with women that are the same age as me
Didn't call you a pervert and never mentioned who you do or not have sex with. But if you think it's ok to have sex with minors....More nonsensical rubbish to deflect from the issues.
Whereas people who like to get their boogie on with someone who is ten years younger than them is a cradle robber.
No, unless they like to abuse children- we're talking about consensual relationships between adults. Get with the program.
anything younger than that and anything younger than that and they're Hugh Hefner.
Depends whether they've reached the age of consent. Two 14 year olds who decide to have sex may not be acting legally, but it's not an abusive relationship- see the difference?
So those dudes are not interested in the gender, it's purely about overpowering somebody.
Erm, no, it's about power and control. Over powering somebody is something different altogether- abusive relationships take the form of one of the individuals having more power than the other. Like an adult and child- see how that works? An adult can manipulate a child into a sexual relationship because they have more power and the child is much more easily manipulated- and controlled. Overpowering is not about manipulation, it is about force. Look it up in a dictionary.
So those dudes are not interested in the gender, it's purely about overpowering somebody.
Erm, no, it's purely about controlling somebody, not overpowering somebody. I can point you in the direction of reliable and universally accepted definition in a dictionary, if you'd like?
Except when it's reversed, then they are like submissive people, regardless of the gender of person that is taking advantage of them, cause they like it anyways
What on earth are you prattling on about? If you're referring to same sex relationships, yes, gay people like to have sex with their own gender. How on earth have you established that one of them has to be submissive?
Except of course if they are under the age of thirteen because that is a magical number that separates pedophiles from the other preverts,
Erm, no, that is what differentiates a pedophile from a hebophile. Both abuse children (minors) who are not consenting adults (that is, believe it or not, quite an important consideration) Since you were the one to bring up pedophiles you need to be clear exactly what and who a pedophile is. And you're not.
Since, after all, everyone is a prevert of some type.
Speak for yourself. I don't abuse children or obsess about what two consenting adults do in the bedroom, same sex or otherwise. But if the cap fits....That explains a lot. Of course, you are only speaking for yourself, dude.
Nope, that's according to Holly the psychopathagist.
Nope, that's according to Hollie the former criminal justice case manager, which included the supervision of high risk predatory sex offenders!
But not the low risk, "I swear that kid was eighteen!" statutory rape stuff.
Interesting, you believe you have the right to deviant behavior with sixteen year old girls. And, you say you know the difference?
What makes you think I have deviant intentions with sixteen year old girls? I just want to stop being discriminated by intolerant bigots like you, and to be able to go camping with a bunch of underage girls. you are just a hateful person.
Sure, that;s all you want to do. Camping with a bunch of underage girls.
<--- me being hateful
Oh, that sounds so very nice!
But I caution you to place blame where blame is due.
In your opinion, from what I've seen around here, any person who says homosexuality is wrong, and who fights against liberal activism that would make us legally condone homosexuality, is a bigot, and therefore responsible for the deaths of homosexuals who commit suicide?
Is that a correct assumption?
I want you to be sure and specific in your answer, please.
Because if that's what you meant, then your whole sentiment here falls apart, revealing itself for the irony-laced fake-compassion sarcasm that it appears to be.
Here, just in case you don't follow that,
I can probably also say it this way---------
What?! You're blaming conservatives for the suicides of gays?!
And then cautioning liberals to pretend to forgive them, to not enact "retribution" (vengeance!) upon them?!
LOLOL. You deign to urge gay activists to not assault people who simply speak what is right?! Gee, how (not) nice of you!Yup people who discriminate against gay people, who label homosexuality as wrong are through their ignorance and bigotry often at least partially responsible for the massive rate of suicides in the LGBT community. My best friend in my youth hung himself in the closet of our orphanage for just that reason, because the nuns who operated it told him what he felt and who he loved was wrong and an abomination. Believe me it takes a lot for me to forgive them for causing a child's death.
I am not blaming CONSERVATIVES many conservatives have nothing against gay people and support their equality, several of them are here on hubpages, I am blaming BIGOTS correctly for that is where a lot of the blame lies, without their malicious lies and ignorance the rate of suicide for gay people would not be seven times higher, statistical research proves that is a fact not an opinion.
Assault? No Pretend? No
I would like people in the gay community and supporters of equality such as myself to not give in to the temptation of retribution for hundreds of years of oppression. Not to for example criminalize homophobia as hate speech.
I think it's terribly nice of me actually, certainly a lot kinder than what your ilk has been doing for a very long time.Wow.
First of all, there is no such thing as "homophobia".
A phobia, or prejudice, or bigotry, etc., means that a person is afraid of something for no reason at all. There is plenty of reason for people to fear and dislike homosexual actions and especially homosexual activism. An example is your high-and-mighty attitude here, your condemnation of people who speak about right and wrong.
And how dare you even talk about homosexual suicide as though homosexuals are the only confused, hurting people who commit suicide. I have friends and acquaintances who have, or who've known people who, have committed suicide, and they weren't gay. Some people just have emotional problems, and yes some of them have been persecuted and insulted and etc.
There are people who've been mocked and persecuted because they were fat, or ugly, or skinny, or retarded, or poor, or conservative, or Christian, or a myriad of other things. Your agenda is two-fold-----to raise homosexuality to the level of legitimacy that it doesn't deserve, and to exact some form of vengeance upon those who you perceive as being responsible for hurting the feelings of gays.
Sure, there've been people who've mocked, verbally and physically assaulted gays. But so have gays done that (and sometimes more) to straight people and Christians just because they were Christians and/or straight. And they've gotten by with harrassing straight people in public; they don't even try to hide it anymore. Just like you having the audacity to accuse people here, with no shame at all.
You want to blame the nuns who told your friend what right and wrong is?! At least they told him right. Hopefully, they didn't mock him; hopefully, they told him that there is hope for repentance and forgiveness! But apparently you would blame them even if they did. Your vengeance is misplaced. It is actually those like you who tell impressionable kids that they're being wrongfully persecuted, instead of telling them that their lives are worth living and that they are indeed loveable and that they can indeed have a decent happy life with someone of the opposite sex, who are to blame.
"Hate speech" is what you've spoken here--------blaming conservatives, calling them bigots. You want to hold it over our heads and act like we need your forgiveness?! Oh my. It is you who needs to seek forgiveness for your false accusations.
And let me tell you something else--------suicide results from mental depression and/or mental and emotional disorders. I know, because I've had friends who committed suicide, and they were not gay. There are of course sometimes reasons like being mocked or persecuted that precipitate suicide, whether that person's problem is gay temptation or whether it's being persecuted by bullies for whatever invalid reason like being ugly or retarded or whatever. But in no way is suicide limited to people who have homosexual temptations. I certainly don't see you having compassion for everyone who's about to commit suicide or who has committed suicide. So your agenda is flat selfish and is a persecution of conservatives. And no, a conservative is not conservative just on one issue. A conservative believes there is right and wrong, and will stand up for what's right. You have no right blaming anyone including those nuns, unless they mocked the person and refused to give them hope. A "bigot" and a "bully" is someone who mocks and persecutes someone. A person who simply tells someone the truth about right and wrong is not a bigot.As noted the rate of suicide int he gay community is seven times that of the straight community so your objections on that issue are laughable.
I am not attempting to get Vengeance when i am specifically asking people to forgive. Again laughable.
There is no serious history of persecution of straight people by gay people there is a massive history of the opposite. Again laughable.
Nope scientific evidence demonstrates that gay people almost universally cannot have healthy and happy relationships with people of the opposite sex, gay people who marry or go through reformation therapy have 95% divorce rates a suicide rates which are four times higher than the already massive gay suicide rate. Wrong again.
Nope homosexuality is not wrong, it harms no one and is declared a normal and healthy part of the human sexuality spectrum by every psychiatric, psychological and medical board in the country. Wrong again.
Again not conservatives, many conservatives have done no wrong on this issue, bigots are the ones who require forgiveness.
They demonized my friend, moved him to a small room by himself because they were afraid he would rape the other boys and they told him he was an abomination for sleeping with another man, so he killed himself, they committed evil.
Homophobia is a real thing, psychological and psychiatric experiments prove it all hatred and discrimination of same sex people comes from fear, (it is the fear nodes that light up in homophobes when shown gay people under a brain scan).
Want to continue being provably wrong?
It's thanks to people who are so provably wrong such as yourself that gay rights are advancing so quickly so thank you!No, it isn't thanks to me at all.
It's thanks to people who persist in calling wrong, right, and who push that on everyone else. And thanks to the people who cave in under the type of pressure that you post here, cave in for fear of being further accused and harrassed.
So give credit where credit is due. It's not my doing at all. Take the credit for yourself, even, if you wish, but in time you will not want the credit, because no matter how much bullying and false rhetoric conservatives have to endure, they will at some point find it worthwhile to speak truth which gives hope to people struggling with homosexual temptations. Christians and other conservatives offer hope to those who struggle with this. You and other gay activists offer no lasting hope at all, only temporary appeasement for selfish reasons. Any person who struggles with anything needs to know that they're not alone, that they're not hopeless, that they're among a society that struggles with all kinds of sins and temptation, but that they can have closure over persecutors, they can deal with their own personal problems with the help of, not enablers, but of people who understand what right and wrong is, and what repentance and forgiveness is, and can overcome those things by learning the consequences of one's actions and taking one step at a time, of people who truly do respect each person as a human being and who validate the person's ability to exercise self-control and human dignity.
Could you explain your definition of primal justice? How should primal justice be enforced?
I have an idea of righteous anger, but how do you define it?
How far back in history do we have to go to sacrifice the above two in order to move forward?
What are your parameters for this?Primal justice is just what people feel automatically, internally, to be just, the impulse that makes us want to punish things ourselves with violence or retribution.
Righteous anger is what people who have been wronged, like that gay community have been, feel.
I guess it's always our lifetime we have to look at, I don't think people should pay for the sins of their fathers so forgiveness is not required there but actions perpetuated by living people do require forgiveness.
And why do we have to forgive them? No, they have to make their efforts. I am tired to forgive or being too complaisant with them. They are adults as I am.
Ah, what short memories!
Just over 100 years ago several states in the US had an age of consent as low as ten, one state as low as seven!
Age of consent is an arbitrary figure, it might be right for one person but still far too low for another.I seriously doubt 7, 10 or even 12 is ever the "right" age.
Can I ask why you believe that? I understand that in itself it does nothing but the consequences of it particularly in non retribution are positive no?
There is a misconception that people who don't forgive are miserable people. That isn't really true. So if it has no negative impact what is the point?
Hmm yeah I was not really suggesting people forgive for their own benefit so much as for the benefit of those being forgiven. Though I do think it's good for the forgiver too since they can move on with their lives without the anger.
Josak,
It seems that there IS a lot of violence, at least in border states, perpetrated by illegal aliens. My source is the FBI, and the site actually takes you to an FBI site. References are included in the site. I think that’s a pretty good source.
IF you read the article, you'll find that immigrants, from all over the world, are heavily involved in gang activity in America. It seems that the Mexican-American border and many illegal aliens do pose a "continuing criminal threat to the United States."
FBI:
“The US Southwest Border region represents a continuing criminal threat to the United States. The rugged, rural, and porous area along the nearly 2,000 miles of contiguous US-Mexican territory invites widespread criminal activity, including drug and arms trafficking, alien smuggling, human trafficking, extortion, kidnapping, and public corruption. US-based gangs, MDTOs, and other criminal enterprises in both the United States and Mexico are readily exploiting this fluid region and incur enormous profit by establishing wide-reaching drug networks; assisting in the smuggling drugs, arms, and illegal immigrants; and serving as enforcers for MDTO interests on the US side of the border.”
“Continued drug trafficking-related violence along the US Southwest border could trigger increased migration of Mexicans and Central Americans into the United States and, as such, provide a greater pool of victims, recruits, and criminal opportunities for street gangs as they seek to profit from the illegal drug trade, alien smuggling, and weapons trafficking. Likewise, increased gang recruitment of youths among the immigrant population may result in an increase in gang membership and gang-related violence in a number of regions.”
http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publi … assessmentWait is is this about Mexicans committing sex crimes against children or have you just changed the topic on a thread about forgiveness for people who have discriminated against gay people AGAIN?
You responded in less than two minutes, and you claim I don't read sources? Yes, IF you read the article, you should find that it talks about human trafficking. I'd say that has something to do with sex.
Yeah it doesn't say anything about children and it mentions many gangs from many different affiliations and ethnicity are using prostitutes and smuggling people into the country for sex, I believe the biggest problem is the US in that area is actually from the Eastern Block with Vory Mafias shipping them in.
But I still can't see any statistical analysis of Mexicans being responsible for this or anything to do with Mexicans having sex with children.OMG
Wrong. Illegal aliens are involved in human trafficking and sexual exploitation of children:
FBI:
"Human trafficking is another source of revenue for some gangs. Victims—typically women and children—are often forced, coerced, or led with fraudulent pretense into prostitution and forced labor.16 The Bloods, MS-13, Sureños, and Somali gangs have been reportedly involved in human trafficking, according to multiple law enforcement and NGIC reporting."
http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publi … assessment
Sureños - "A large share of the immigrant gangsters in the most notorious gangs such as Mara Salvatrucha (MS-13), Surenos-13, and 18th Street are illegal aliens. Their illegal status means they are especially vulnerable to law enforcement, and local authorities should take advantage of the immigration tools available in order to disrupt criminal gang activity, remove gang members from American communities, and deter their return. Once explained, these measures find much support, especially in immigrant communities where gang crime is rampant."
http://www.cis.org/ImmigrantGangsUhuh so no statistics, no proof and mentioned amongst several other gangs tat do the same thing. Gangs do bad stuff and poor areas have gangs it's not news to anyone and it's irrelevant to illegal immigration.
Your denial is laughable. I have another government site that states that over 40 percent of all gangs in America are composed of illegal aliens. I can also provide a government source that details the massive crime and violence perpetrated by gangs, detailing the percentage. None of this matters to you.
Again, God Himself couldn't convince you of something that is not liberal. This discussion is pointless, with you.
I'll hold out for a study by a liberal organization. Perhaps one will happen, and you'll change your tune.Can I see this source that cites it's data that shows 40% of gangsters in the US are illegals?
Source, Josak:
"Most of the illegal immigrants in the US live in California btw."
Source, FBI:
"Formed in Los Angeles, 18th Street is a group of loosely associated sets or cliques, each led by an influential member. Membership is estimated at 30,000 to 50,000. In California approximately 80 percent of the gang’s members are illegal aliens from Mexico and Central America. The gang is active in 44 cities in 20 states. Its main source of income is street-level distribution of cocaine and marijuana and, to a lesser extent, heroin and methamphetamine. Gang members also commit assault, auto theft, carjacking, drive-by shootings, extortion, homicide, identification fraud, and robbery."
I have better statistics, but this goes to show that illegal aliens are involved in A LOT of gang crime.
http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publi … t-2009-pdfSo not the source I asked for? there are about 1.5 million gang members in the US, 80% of 30 000 to 50 000 is not much comparatively additionally according to that source they are not using human trafficking prostitution as a source of income (at least not listed.)
There are 2.5 million illegals in California."So not the source I asked for."
What, do you think I work for you or something? This isn't about sources; this is about you wanting to win a petty debate. I could provide sources all day, but you are adamant that your liberal views are right. This is pointless.
Josak,
Criminal Aliens - "55 percent, or 225,390, of the people removed in FY 2012 were convicted criminal aliens – almost double the removal of criminals from FY 2008, and the largest number of criminal aliens removed in agency history."
http://www.ice.gov/removal-statistics/
That's right, 1/4 of a million criminal aliens were deported in 2012. That's no small number. There are roughly 2.2 million incarcerated people in America. According to the government-provided data, we have deported the same number of criminal illegal aliens in the past 15 years as we have in prison in all of America right now!Yous till have not learned the terminology? Criminal alines are any person not born in the US who commits a crime in the US so it includes legal immigrants. Most of them are simply deported for the crime of illegal crossing so again irrelevant.
Wrong. Criminal alien does not mean that when the sources clearly delineate the crimes.
Did you read the source?
Homicides
Sexual Offenses
Drugs
The only thing that is irrelevant is your apathy and lack of compassion for the victims.
@Onusuonus, we don't have statutory rape in this country, we have unlawful sexual intercourse charges (in the scenario that you speak of ) and by the very definition will always by high risk, not low. Also, I worked with adults over the age of 21. Our criminal justice system is two tiered, those under the age of 21 are young offenders- not adults.
An 18 year old with a conviction for a usi would be always be assessed as high level of harm, even if the likelihood of re-offending was low. I have absolutely no idea why you would consider such an offence to be low level of harm. I guess that demonstrates your lack of understanding.If there is no such thing as statutory rape in this country then why does everybody call it statutory rape? Ah, your little story is starting to fall to pieces...
I was talking of my country, duh! I live in England. Note the "we don't have statutory rape in this country"
Exactly, and you guys probably still have taxation without representation.
Is there an Age Gap Provision?
Mistake of Age Defense? Just curious.Below the age of fifteen often determined as rape because child not capable, or deemed capable of consent. At fifteen the charge will invariably be one of USI, unless there has been use of force, in which case rape again.
But depends on the factors and individual cases. One case for example, which I supervised, was of a twenty five year old man having sex with a fourteen year old girl. Charged with USI, not just because girl looked much older, but her family, including mum and dad, told him she was 19. (I know, what kind of parent would perpetuate a lie like that?)
But in the main, above 15 a USI, below 15 rape.I am surprised by how many States in the U.S. are also 16 It seems way too young to me.
I suppose it does (now my daughter has just turned 16 *cringes at the thought*) but I also suppose it depends on the individual and the partner. I think a girl (or boy) of 16 having a relationship with a man of say, 30, just doesn't seem right at all. At sixteen, most kids are still very immature and childlike, so I'd still consider it verging on abusive. Although not defined as such in law.
Welcome to the world of hateful bigots. Now why should we expose our youth in the Boy Scouts to potential adult predators? For the sake of political correctness? I think not.
Really it's just common sense for a parent to want their child to participate in extra curricular activities without having to worry about people trying to explore their sexual inhibitions with them. There aren't a bunch of 30 year old men out there fighting for their right to go camping with sixteen year old girl scouts, and if there were, no parent in their right mind would support it.
So we either except the fact that young people camping with members of the opposite sex or with same gender attraction is inappropriate, or we act by selective hypocrisy and make a civil rights issue out of it, as has been done over the last decade.So what does all that have to do with believing that gay men are pedophiles?
Oh yeah, You jumped in at the middle of the conversation. You'll have to go back and read to get the full context.
yeah, read it. Your point is still irrelevant. And by the way, it is not only men who rape little girls, women abuse too. Not as many convictions because the offences go largely unreported.
You just don't get it do you? For a pedophile or hebaphile, children are their sexual orientation. Not adults.
It does get reported, just not as often, so yes we do know that it happens. And by definition, rape can include penetration with an object- women rape too.
We do not however, know that aliens visit earth. So again, not only a completely irrelevant comparison, but more speculation and nonsense.This was reported.
http://nation.foxnews.com/sex-crimes/20 … sbian-rapeThank you, Lie Detector. I had momentarily wondered if in the US rape would be defined in the exactly the same way as the UK. But here in the UK, penetration with an object is also defined as rape.
@Onusonus. I don't say it happens, studies and reports say that it happens.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s … report.pdf
Look to table 4.2 if you don't want to read the whole document. And then you can retract your ludicrous statement about aliens and female sex offenders.And all I'm saying is there may not be proof that these rapes occur and you can say that it does based on the same speculation that this guy does.
No, you can't say that there may not be proof, because there has been sufficient evidence (proof) to convict these people. Or, are you saying that the courts, police and entire criminal justice system are lying because you just don't want to hold your hands up and state that you were wrong when you claimed that only men sexually abuse?
I never said only men sexually abuse. And there's plenty of evidence of ancient aliens. Ever read the book "Chariots of the Gods"? Just think about it.
You said only men sexually abuse boys, you were wrong. Women abuse boys as well as girls. Largely unreported (as I said before) but still reported and convictions brought. So no, has nothing to do with same gender attraction, that is between adults. Abusers don't give a damn about gender. You really need to get that.
"As I said before All the people who rape little boys are of the same gender, that is what we call same sex attraction" No it isn't. The same abusers also abuse girls. No same sex attraction, just the abuse of children.
I said we don't if aliens visit the earth, I didn't say they that didn't. See the difference? Working with what we know, not what we think and opinions that we might have.Actually I originally said "I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that 99.9% of people who have raped or molested little boys were of the same gender." Which is verifiable, not based on your speculation. I usually try not to speak in definites but you caught me. I stand by my original statement. Alien abductions go largely unreported because they don't want the unbelieving world to think they are crazy. I can't put a number on it but it's probably a large number. Because I said so. No evidence required.
Then verify it. I'm not speculating, my knowledge comes from study and experience- working with victims and perpetrators- where does your knowledge (?) come from exactly. I can substantiate anything that I have said. If you require evidence, fair dues, just ask for it!
I also didn't say that I don't think there might be some substance in alien abductions- I think that there may be, it's possible. But I don't know that this is the case. Neither do you. I do, however, know that women and men are convicted for rape and sexual abuse, I also know that men who sexually abuse little boys also sexually abuse little girls.
But, if you want to go through your life, making silly assumptions, sounding ridiculous and expecting to be taken seriously, well.... that's your choice. But you do not have the right to label as a pedophile other men because they are gay. Stupid rhetoric like this, ruins lives.I think you are projecting just a tad. I never said that All Gay men are pedophiles. And that is how you discredit yourself. I did say that the vast majority of people who rape little boys are men. And just as men should not go camping with young girls, so should homosexual men not make an issue out of exclusion from the Boy Scouts.
To stress my point, I have four daughters and there are a lot of young girls that are around my house all the time, however I do not permit them to be in my house when my wife is gone for both their protection and mine. There is one girl in particular who is a pathological liar and if I were to be alone in the house with her at any point I could very easily find myself in trouble with the law should she decide to conjure up a story for her own entertainment purposes. This is called prevention and is purely common sense. Likewise there is no hatred involved in preventing Homosexuals from going camping with young men.
As a side note I noticed that you have classified those people who are attracted to children at various stages of development as having a "sexual orientation" so perhaps you should be defending the folks at NAMBLA since they too were born that way.
You said that 99.9% of boys are abused by men, and that this is known as same sex attraction, yet, you repeatedly ignore the fact that those who abuse, abuse both genders, therefore nothing to do with same sex attraction- lust for children, not gender. Has that sunk in yet?
Yes, the pedophile community want their abuse to be recognised as an orientation, I actually loathe to use the that word because it normalises abuse. But I did not how to get across to you, despite numerous attempts, that abuse of children is not about their gender, but their age. You just don't get it!
It is their orientation, but an illegal unhealthy one, for very good reason. THEY. ABUSE. CHILDREN.
Hetrosexuals and gays have an orientation but it's not about abuse. It's about the gender of the partner. Can you still not recognise the difference?
And if you're going to go down that road, stating that certain (healthy, non abusive individuals) should not be given any access to minors. Then you have to say that neither orientation, or gender, should be given access to children because both are capable of abuse. Which, frankly, is a ridiculous statement to make.
Who's projecting?Hollie, don't you think that the existence of NAMBLA is antithetical to your assertion? Clearly they are a "man/boy" love association and not a "man/any gender" love association. And if it is all about power then why do they insist that there are cases where the intercourse was consensual? Now don't get me wrong It is obvious that young people who may be coerced into it should not be held accountable, but in the predators mind, it would seem at least in some cases, they felt that the sex was consensual.
I personally believe that if a man gets caught doing something to a child in such a perverse manner, no matter what is going on in that twisted little brain of theirs, they should have their man parts removed in some vial manner. Not just a clean cut either, (that would be to nice), but perhaps with a blender, or a meat grinder.
Onusonus,
Nambla, and organisations like just like them will always attempt to latch on to some legitimate movement to try validate their own existence. They are fully aware that if they started a movement that was just about having sex with children- it would get nowhere. Admittedly, that is what it's about- but they try to make it a gay rights issue, a civil rights issue, they can only do that if they attach their orientation to a specific gender. They have seen how successful the gay rights movement have been when it comes to securing their rights. And they want the same. This is a tactic.
Sex offenders are the most manipulative, calculating, devious bunch of individuals that it will ever be your misfortune to meet. They will always attempt to minimize their offences, describe them as something else, and always, always, portray themselves as the "victims" By asserting that they're just gay, they can do just that.
I could offer you a multitude of examples of how they twist their offences into something else. The man who abuses his girlfriend's son or daughter- in his view is never a pedophile; he's prosecuted because the police don't like him, or because the child lied, or because the mother was having an affair and wanted rid of him. Or it was the child's fault, they were acting in a sexual way and led them on. If you don't believe me then do some research yourself. The victim role is where they're most comfortable- and they'll always find a way to be a victim.
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