Church Leadership

1. 76

   pamijposted 10 years ago

   Should men of the cloth be held to  higher standards than the flock that they lead or are they merely mortals and are subjected to sin as the rest of humanity? If so should society readily forgive them as Christ has forgiven us?

   replyreport
   1. 0

      Beth37posted 10 years agoin reply to this

      "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Rm 3:23
      
      That includes Deviant Catholic priests, me, Zelkiiro, and Mother Teresa.
      
      "For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you." Mt 6:14

      replyreport
      1. 76

         pamijposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         Beth do you think Catholic priest are the only clergy members that commit lustful acts? Sad to say is quite viewed as the norm when speaking of lust, adultery and pedophile behavior in mainstream religious organizations people automatically think Catholicism. However is this a fair stigma?

         replyreport
         1. 0

            Beth37posted 10 years agoin reply to this

            I absolutely don't believe those sins are restricted to Catholic priests and how sad for the men who have served faithfully their whole lives only to be lumped in with the few who are sick in the head. I do agree with Kathryn that men were not made to be celibate. What a ridiculous farce it is to remain in that position if lust has taken over your life. Can you imagine they would consider it a worse shame to step down and think it preferable to molest a child?
            
            James 3:1 says, "Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly." So do I think these men don't struggle with the same sins you and I do? No, but the Bible says they will be held accountable, they are given a place of trust and they must seek help when they feel they are in trouble.
            
            Billy Graham, for instance, travels with other ppl who have kept him accountable over the years so that he would not stray and could not be maligned. He's a smart man. All men should be so wise.

            replyreport
            1. 76

               pamijposted 10 years agoin reply to this

               Amen!

               replyreport
   2. 84

      psycheskinnerposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      Math teachers need to do math well.  Forest guides need to not get lost.  Moral leaders need to be moral.
      
      If you lead there is an obligation to be clearly above average in that quality or all you will lead people into is error.
      
      I, for one, am tired of people who set themselves up as role models being complete hypocrites.

      replyreport
      1. 0

         Motown2Chitownposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         Agreed.

         replyreport
2. 88

   Zelkiiroposted 10 years ago

   If their position calls them to be celibate, then they should learn to keep their hands off of the altar boys.

   replyreport
3. 88

   Zelkiiroposted 10 years ago

   Actually, if they're horndogging over altar boys, they've got bigger problems than breaking their vows of chastity.
   
   Like, y'know, not horndogging over the choir ladies in the robes that leave a lot to the imagination. Or hell, if you're gonna be a pedophile anyway, why not go for the communion girls? WHY THE ALTAR BOYS?!

   replyreport
   1. 76

      Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      Right?

      replyreport
4. 76

   Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years ago

   *They should be allowed to have wives and families in the first place. Then the sex urge would not become deviated! We need to accept what is. What is the point of celibacy?
   
   *They need to be removed from priesthood when they do these perverted things. They obviously can't handle the position.
   
   *Yes, if they forgive themselves, and God forgives them, then we allow forgiveness… but it would be very stupid to NOT STOP THEM!
   Which Jesus would agree.

   replyreport
   1. 76

      pamijposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      AMEN!!!

      replyreport
   2. 0

      Motown2Chitownposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      Sexually deviant behavior is not born of celibacy.  A pedophile has a mental disorder.  More of them are married than are celibate.  You may as well have made the equally ignorant statement that all homosexuals are pedophiles, or that all men who aren't married yet are a danger to children.

      replyreport
5. 76

   pamijposted 10 years ago

   I do agree if they are overtaken with lust they should most definitely be removed. Did GOD remove David when he committed murder and adultery? Please refrain from profanity when responding.

   replyreport
6. 0

   Beth37posted 10 years ago

   "A 2005 article in the conservative Irish weekly the Western People proposed that clerical celibacy contributed to the abuse problem by suggesting that the institution of celibacy has created a "morally superior" status that is easily misapplied by abusive priests: "The Irish Church's prospect of a recovery is zero for as long as bishops continue blindly to toe the Vatican line of Pope Benedict XVI that a male celibate priesthood is morally superior to other sections of society." Christoph Schönborn and Hans Küng have also said that priestly celibacy could be one of the causes of the sex abuse scandals within the Catholic Church."

   replyreport
   1. 0

      Motown2Chitownposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      Clerical celibacy is a voluntary state.  As is chosing not to engage in sexual activity prior to marriage...which, incidentally, is the practice of celibacy.  Think about this...if being celibate makes one feel superior to those who are not,  does it make any sense at all that you would express that superiority through sexual activity?  Dysfunction and unhealthy secrecy and shame are what created the sexually abusive environment in the church- not celibacy.  And not that it will matter but chastity and celibacy are not synonymous.  Chastity is sexual fidelity in one's chosen state of life - celibacy is abstinence from sexual activity.  I also am not arguing against doing away with clerical celibacy...it has not always been the norm in the church and is a man made dictate.  However, again, it is voluntary.  Lastly, unless a priest is a member of a religious order, he does not take a vow of chastity.  He makes a voluntary promise of obedience to the Bishop that encompasses a choice of celibacy.  There are priests who have converted to Catholicism who are married...obviously they are not expected to be celibate.  Chaste, but not celibate.
      
      But to assume that because one is celibate, they will be driven to deviant sexual behavior is absurd.

      replyreport
      1. 76

         pamijposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         1 Corinthians 7-9  Now for the matters you wrote about: “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.” 2 But since sexual immorality is occurring, each man should have sexual relations with his own wife, and each woman with her own husband. 3 The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4 The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband. In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife. 5 Do not deprive each other except perhaps by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. 6 I say this as a concession, not as a command. 7 I wish that all of you were as I am. But each of you has your own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that.
         
         8 Now to the unmarried[a] and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do. 9 But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.
         Revert back to verse 1 and 2 as we can see these acts of insanity was a problem in the early churches as well.

         replyreport
7. 76

   pamijposted 10 years ago

   Motown I think her case and point is that Strict celibacy guidelines for priest is a contributing factor for their deviant behaviors, which I have to disagree as well. As you stated in your above post something has definately went awry in their  internal wiring. Being in heat so to speak will not turn your affections upon an innocent helpless child and in my opinion these individuals should be prosecuted with maxium penalties. They should not be allowed to hide behind church walls and titles. However lets keep our post respectful and refrain from deragatory behaviors that's offensive to others and again I thank all of you for your responses to this controversial topic.

   replyreport
8. 55

   EncephaloiDeadposted 10 years ago

   1. Catholic clergy aren't more likely to abuse children than other clergy or men in general.
   2. Clergy sexual abuse in the Catholic Church can't be blamed on celibacy. Not having sex doesn't make children the object of one's desire.
   3. Clergy sexual abuse in the Catholic Church can't be blamed on homosexuality.
   4. Clergy sexual abuse in the Catholic Church can't be blamed on an all male clergy.
   5. Almost all of clergy sexual abuse cases in the Catholic Church that we hear about in the news are from decades ago (usually the 1960's and 70's).
   6. Most clergy sex offenders aren't pedophiles.
   
   http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/do- … exual-abus

   replyreport
   1. 95

      wildernessposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      Unfortunately, your link relies heavily on the fact that Catholic priests are no more likely than other men to be pedophiles.  Buried within that assumption, but never mentioned, is that Catholic priests may well have a much lower rate of pedophilia if celibacy were not a factor; that is something that has never been tested.
      
      Personally, I think that "illicit" sex, whether pedophilia or homosexuality, by Catholic priests is likely higher because of a higher desire for sex, driven by celibate denial of the sex drive.  Those two groups are much less likely to become public, protecting the "spirituality" of the priest, so that's where his attentions go.  Somewhere he can have very private sex with little chance of it becoming public knowledge.

      replyreport
      1. 55

         EncephaloiDeadposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         It states in the article:
         
         "Most sex offenders are not celibate clergy. Most are married or partnered."

         replyreport
         1. 95

            wildernessposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            And that is an indication that sex starved clergy won't search for the "safest" way to satisfy their urges?
            
            I don't think so - the issue is not that there is an strong urge for pedophilia, it is that there is a strong urge for sex.  Pedophilia just happens to be easier to keep quiet.  As does, until recently, homosexuality as most gays were in the closet.

            replyreport
            1. 55

               EncephaloiDeadposted 10 years agoin reply to this

               From the article it states:
               
               "Furthermore, many men who don't have sex for a variety of reasons (e.g., no suitable partners, marital or relationship distress) don't turn to children for sexual gratification. They turn to other consenting adults. Think about it: If you don't have sex who becomes the object of your desire? Children or other adults? "

               replyreport
               1. 95

                  wildernessposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                  Yes, think about it.  While the clergy may desire a woman (presumably they do) who presents the least probability of telling the world?
                  
                  Children.  Children and, until the past couple of decades, gays that were still hiding in the closet (or were other clergy).  Will the clergy then choose the path most likely to protect their secret and position in the church or the path most likely to become widely known and ruin their priesthood?
                  
                  You're missing the entire point of what I said; that clergy will highly desire sex, they will desire sex with the opposite sex, but will settle for "safe" sex, sex that won't cost them their position in the church. 
                  
                  Unless they DO get caught, of course, whereupon they hope the church will cover it all up to protect itself.  Which is exactly what happened for years and years.

                  replyreport
      2. 76

         Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         -there is the aspect of power over the helpless child. maybe they feel powerless themselves. ooops I did not stay in the box.

         replyreport