Why has non believers come against the believers platfom on hubpages?

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74
glendoncabaposted 14 years ago
I would want to suggest that we ask the right question to get the right answer. The operative question therefore is not what is wrong with the 'other' person? No. The question we want to answer is what is wrong with the world?

Your answer depends on your world view.

The task of the change agent with a sense of mission is to seek to remedy the ills of the world which inevitably includes a programme to convert others to their world view in the most non threatening way.

May I further suggest that Secularism does it through universities, textbooks, masonic lodges, and mass media.

Neo Pantheism does it through music, movies, certain segments of the holistic movement, books, pop culture, media, fashion, etc. New Age themes are in nearly every movie and popular song.

Theism particularly Christianity does it through churches, books, mass media, organized evangelism, preachers, private schools and universities, and most effectively through one-to-one private studies.

So even your strong advocacy is your voluntary or involuntary effort to convert me to your world view. The marvel of modern democracy is that we all get along. One love.
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1. 57
  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Cannot admit to a mistake huh?
  
  Your worldview is XYZ, therefore everyone else's is ABC.
  
  Interesting use of semantics, but still you are not prepared to listen to what is being said to you.
  
  Your approach is offensive and your assumptions are even more offensive.
  
  Thus we will always fight.
  
  Which is what your irrational beliefs are all about. You say "love" when you mean "hate."
  
  And never the twain shall meet.
  
  Oh well. You are right. You have no need to compromise when you are speaking for god.
  
  This is love?
  
  Interesting usage of the word. And you can keep it - evangelist.
  
  Just read what you have written. A lot of bullies use this approach
  
  The marvel of modern democracy is that you evangelists can no longer bring me to the stake - as you would like to do. I see it in your heart. Too bad...........
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  74
  glendoncabaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Worldview approach is not an us vs them. Its an attempt to classify how we all fit into a particularly view. That way we start out knowing where everyone is coming from.
  
  there are many abc
  many xyz
  many qrs
  
  when we study and understand others we can communicate with love. Love is regard and honour for others.
  
  If I were an atheist I would no problem with a fellow atheist or a theist saying to me he or she is willing to look at the big picture to understand the foundation of my ideology or philosophy. We dont have to agree to try to love and understand each other.
  
  Love is patient, kind, merciful. I may not be using the perfect words for your worldview but my first premise is love.
  
  Until you understand that I love you we cannot proceed. You need to go through the same learning curve I went through when I charged in here all innocent and did not understand the new paradigm here.
  
  Remove the old prejudices.
  
  I love.
  
  Love says you are important.
  
  Your views are important.
  
  Your context is important.
  
  Your right to express yourself is important.
  
  Because I love you I will not offer you what you have rejected.
  
  But dont insult me by saying I hate you simply because I wish the freedom to share my faith in this forum. And i do agree that religion has been responsible for much evil in this world. In fact religion is one of things wrong with this world. Paradoxically its one of things right with the world.
  
  This is the level of discourse I wish to engage in. Dont try to trap me with the "you are right, I am wrong" kindergarten material. We are bigger than that.
  
  Just because I believe that God is love does not make me the Inquisition. For God does not force. It is evil religious people who force with weapons. They are not following the example of jesus. America, just like white european colonists have used religion to exploit people. Yet paradoxically america is the greatest nation on earth. Seeing the big picture can be very liberating. Even for a Christian.
  
  I can probably tell you more about the evils of religion than you think. Remember I did Marxist leninist political theory with the leader of the communist party.
  
  If you slowly read what I have to say you will come to understand that you are dealing with a different Christian.
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  57
  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Semantics. I have told you that your assumptive approach is offensive and insulting.
  
  This does not matter to you and you have chosen not to address it.
  
  Why? Because you are more concerned with trying to persuade me that ignoring the fact that you offend me (and others who have tried to explain it to you) by behaving this way is actually showing me "love".
  
  What an odd definition of the word this "christian love" is.
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  74
  glendoncabaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  What assumptive approach? I already changed my entire approach to where i now respond to simple questions with simple answers and explanations. You just refuse my right to say I have faith in a deity and will share that voluntarily or involuntarily.
  
  Your messages represent militant sharing of your world view, your philosophy. I respect your right to share your view. Why do you resent me sharing mine.
  
  Tolerance in a pluralistic world is necessary.
  
  I trust that you dont hate me for being a person of faith. I love you whether or not you are a person of faith. We dont have to believe the same thing for me to love you. Love is the first and only command.
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  57
  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  OK. You are right - that is what I am doing. I am not expressing myself genuinely - in fact, I am lying.
  
  You love me and the fact that I perceive it as something else does not matter.
  
  The fact that the way you speak to me offends me does not matter and you should be able to continue doing so because you love me.
  
  You win.
  
  What a wonderful love it is. I feel it all this way away. I might even sign up and start loving others in the same way.
  
  Sheesh...........
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  74
  glendoncabaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Whenever I'm near to a breakthrough you resort to sarcasm, or accusing me of something I'm not saying.
  
  For example I'm not trying to share anything with you right now.
  
  I'm trying to get us started without prejudice on either side.
  
  I come to the table admitting:
  
  1. Both sides by definition have preconceived notions that make it difficult to communicate fairly unless we are both willing to admit to our biases, our common ground, and our disagreements.
  2. My bias is that of a Christian socialist (sort of) with Seventh-day Adventist theology. No wonder i call myself eccentric for those two dont really go together but thats another discussion.
  3. I perceive that your bias, and I could be wrong, is that of a militant atheist to whom the mere mention of the word Jesus is assumptive and offensive and insulting.
  4. The longer I spend trying to lay the foundation for both a good relationship, and fair communication it is possible that my motives will be questioned.
  5. When I first came to hub pages I made the mistake of offering Christian dogma and interpretations without first taking the time to understand that persons like Mark and others put up a wall once Christ is discussed. Part of the problem is that in my part of the world we witness mostly to people who already have some belief in God. The predominantly atheistic context is a new playing field for me, and if you guys are being entirely honest with me it is a difficult learning curve.
  
  In light of the above admissions, here is my request:
  
  In the words of the great German reformer "My conscience is bound to the word of God, and it is neither safe nor honest to act against one's conscience." Since my faith informs my lifestyle and communication, how can I follow my conscience on hub pages and live peaceably with you.
  
  BTW 'One Love' is an expression from the rastafari jamaican culture. remember Bob Marley. It's hard to explain if you suspect I am evil and hateful and absurd every time I say
  something nice. Sometimes we use it to say good bye. Or to say
  we are all one. If you see me as the enemy it's hard to explain. I'm sorry that you guys misinterpret even that. Which country r u in never heard of Bob Marley, Jimmy Cliff, or bunny Wailer or yes you will know of Shaggy, and Third World band. Not my crowd but hey every now and then pop culture gives us a nice expression. One Love.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Dear oh deary me.
  
  Just not getting it are you?
  
  And yes - I played football with Bob Marley some considerable time ago when I was a kid. He was a nice guy - a stoner, but quite happy to play football with a bunch of kids hanging around outside the venue he was playing at during a "smoke break."
  
  You are right. I give in. It is all me. I put up a wall once your invented persona called jesus is "discussed"......
  
  Nothing assumptive there - oh no. You have changed completely.
  
  Sheesh.
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  74
  glendoncabaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I dont believe you. You played football with bob marley. write a hub about it. I'm a big football fan. went to france in 98 with reggae boyz. I cried after the Croatia game. One of the biggest sacrifices for me as a Seventh-day Adventist is to miss matches on Sabbath. But y'know a christian and conscience.
  
  On a more serious note I am convinced you would rather use sarcasm than admit that i am making an effort to build bridges.
  You really really insult me with such a response after I have poured out my heart in a very non threatening way. Maybe you are not comfortable letting your guard down with a Christian. Right now I have no interest in a diatribe. Just answer my request. Meet me halfway. answer my request. Or you dont respect me enough to answer.
  
  Here is the request again:
  
  In the words of the great German reformer "My conscience is bound to the word of God, and it is neither safe nor honest to act against one's conscience." Since my faith informs my lifestyle and communication, how can I follow my conscience on hub pages and live peaceably with you?
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  57
  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yes - I played football with Bob Marley at the back of a concert venue in Holland when I was about 15 years old. We used an empty coke can.
  
  I am quite comfortable letting my guard down - but you are insisting on not listening to what I am saying, which makes it extremely difficult to have a conversation with you.
  
  You have not in any way acknowledged anything I have said except to accuse me of putting up a wall once christ is discussed.
  
  Guess what? - I understand the christ myth better than you seem to.
  
  I understand that I am christ. As I am all the other characters in the bible. As are you.
  
  But you seem to be thinking he is some one outside yourself who was an actual person.............
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  74
  glendoncabaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I have listened. and have asked you a simple request....
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  55
  My Downtown Viewposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The comment "I will pray for you" is a backhanded "good-wishes". Your telling someone that you are activly wishing them well, and implying they need all the wishing they can get.
  
  It's telling someone you want them to come out of this with a positive result and since that positive can only be a Christian belief in God, it's a passive aggressive: you want him to do well and doing well excludes his beliefs therefore he is wrong and dammed for it.
  
  The good intention might be there, but telling someone you will "pray for him" is not so much offensive to me as it is like finger nails on a black board.
  
  Just my opinion, Mark. I don't know is that's why you're offended...I'm just saying...
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  57
  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I will pray that you eventually gain the wisdom you are so obviously lacking then.
  
  That OK?
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  My Downtown Viewposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah, that really doesn't leave a good after-taste.
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  74
  glendoncabaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  We had a long discussion me explaining I did not say I will pray for you but said I pray God will grant me the wisdom to share his love with you. The very mention of god even in intercession for self empowerment to share a message can be a challenge so I really need to pray. and as you explained it is like saying good wishes if I had meant it directly at the time. However as you said the expected outcome for both sides are antagonistic hence could be viewed as offensive.
  
  Thanks for input.
  
  Trouble is I'm too much of a pacifist so I'm always explaining things to people when I should just state my position and sit down, but I so dislike hurting people.
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  sandra rinckposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  now you are saying that I am asking the wrong questions. I asked you a specific question but you insist that I cannot ask that question, why?
  
  no that is not what I am asking or implying. I asked you why you believe you are right and I am wrong.
  
  What does my world view have to do with you answering the question as to why you believe you are right and I am wrong?
  
  Yes, I know, it called Christianity except for the part where many people have been killed in the name of a god who burns those who don't convert, and his disciples are made to all be head, burn, belittle, lie and all other things just to demand some sort of respect for a really 'f'ed up god. But hey, you all made him.
  
  secularism took its roots from guess what...?
  
  note the next block quote...
  
  What the hell is the difference?
  
  And what, again, is your idea of One Love?
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74
glendoncabaposted 14 years ago
Sandra: YOUR QUESTION:

Your question assumes that I said I am right and you are wrong.

My worldview says we are all born in sin and shaped in iniquity. Something is wrong with all of us. And the gospel of christ offers salvation. You are free to accept the invitation of Christ or not.

My vocation as a preacher is live a life of love which includes the mission to keep repeating that invitation to Christ. Thats all.

But dont ridicule me for accepting the gospel. Respect each others position.

Mark: I agree with you that there is much that religion by definition deals with the world of the supernatural and will from time to time disobey human logic. I'm sorry that you find my sharing of my belief offensive. My main purpose in hub pages is to write for money and most of my religious work, if not all, is free.

Here is my religion blog if you want to meet the real me:

http://glendoncaba.blogspot.com/

As you can see barely monetised because i dont want it to be 'corrupted' by conflicting and offensive ads such as scientology.

So I dont think you will be exposed to my religion much in hub pages. Except for the forum.

But surely it would not be a religion forum without christians coming here to defend their faith. Some far more forthright than I could ever be.
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74
glendoncabaposted 14 years ago
Mark said:

The marvel of modern democracy is that you evangelists can no longer bring me to the stake - as you would like to do. I see it in your heart. Too bad...........

MY RESPONSE:

Mark. Dont believe me. Look to the cross of Jesus Christ. He went to the stake in love for the world. You resent my saying I want to love like Jesus love. I understand because you dont trust me. Will you trust the love of Christ who went to the stake to demonstrate that love. My first and final answer to all your questions and assumptions is the cross of Christ.

Please don't digress with the thesis of other crucified messiahs right now. The story of Jesus is my response. If you are offended by the story of Jesus there is not much else I can say.
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1. 57
  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Digress? I am not offended by the fairy tale of which you speak. I am offended that you think this is the way to show me love. I will not trust in this sort of love you are showing and Jesus was not a real person. Sorry.
  
  I pointed out that Horus met all the requirements to be the messiah - before they were written lol. And you promised you would give up your attachment to this jesus stuff if I did so.
  
  You did not keep your promise.
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  74
  glendoncabaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I seem to recall your crucified messiahs thesis was refuted by another theist.
  
  I'll double check that thread.
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glendoncabaposted 14 years ago
btw how do you guys insert the responses paragraph by paragraph, it would be easier for me.

Do you have to html each block.
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Mishaposted 14 years ago
It is not exactly HTML, it is quote tags. But yes, they should go around each block. Be careful to always have equal number of opening and closing tags, or you will mess up the forum page.
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1. 74
  glendoncabaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks Misha. Time consuming but worth the effort.
  
  I'll try for the future.
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74
glendoncabaposted 14 years ago
Hey where are the other christians. I didnt start this thread i only dropped in to greet Mark.
Talk about no good deed goes unpunished.
Come on people right now I am surrounded by about five atheists only too willing to dismiss people of faith as arrogant and insultive.

I've been hanging around in an effort to prove otherwise.

Just when I think I'm making a breakthrough, having carefully used
the available language, somebody said a word or phrase is horrible.

I am really not a fighter so I have been trying to make peace without much success.

Come on Christians where are you. The brotherhood of atheists are better supporters. On the basis of team work alone the atheists are better hubbers. Man I need to consider atheism, I love team work.
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Mishaposted 14 years ago
LOL Mark, you are definitely a christ for not taking offense for being called a liar
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1. 57
  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I don't think he meant it in quite that way.
  
  It was more a "getthefuckoutahere" sort of statement.........
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  64
  Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  LOL As we just discussed with SweetiePie, many statements can be read different ways
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  57
  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  LOL
  
  Quite right. And I must say - I try really hard to determine the underlying reasoning before responding.
  
  Don't always get it right and have had to apologize occasionally.
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2. 74
  glendoncabaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Misha as mark said its an expression meaning "wow, that really happened". Or the one with the expletive that mark used, in the religion forum. ouch. Naughty, naughty.
  
  I mean I'm a BIG BIG fan of football. In my fantasy i'm a forward for the reggae boyz.
  
  So its kinda like saying wow thats fantastic too good to be true.
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glendoncabaposted 14 years ago
This is getting boring. I listen. I apologise when I'm wrong. I try to learn. I admit the mistake of religionists of all shades.

But Mark refuses to answer a honest request.
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1. 57
  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Here is the request:
  
  So, I would have to wonder what exactly you are requesting. Maybe if you tried again?
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  74
  glendoncabaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Are you implying that it is impossible to do both?
  
  Let me rephrase.
  
  Let us say for the purpose of an experiment in diplomacy I would like to learn how to communicate with you without going against my conscience as a Christian, and yet without coming across as patronising, what are your ground rules?
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  55
  My Downtown Viewposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Shot in the dark - don't be patronizing?
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  57
  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I am not sure why I should be concerned with your conscience as a christian. This involves all sorts of irrational beliefs including making yourself miss football matches on the sabbath.
  
  How am I supposed to deal with that in any rational way?
  
  But how about you not making an assumption that you have all the answers and I am an ignorant heathen?
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  74
  glendoncabaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Would you believe me if i say I have no such assumption. But evidently my statements lead you to think I have those assumptions so I need to work on how I say things. we were here about a month ago.
  
  I dont hear you making any room for my beliefs yet except to dismiss them as irrational?
  
  enough for now.
  
  Welcome back. I have a funeral to attend (my brother-in-law) in england in the near future and might pass through europe for a few days while there.
  
  I did a short europe tour during my france 98 trip, very low budget. was working in media sales then. Actually worshipped in switzerland.
  
  So I'm sure you run into believers in secular europe as well.
  
  How do you relate to Christians in your country. do you have Christian friends.
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  57
  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Well - I do not know what to call making yourself not watch a football game because it falls on a particular day other than irrational.
  
  I have plenty of christian friends. We usually decide not to discuss religion or politics, but if they inject their religious beliefs into a non religious discussion, we will no doubt fall out.
  
  And even the ardent catholics do not miss football matches on a sunday, so their "interpretation" is a little different to yours I guess.
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74
glendoncabaposted 14 years ago
Here is a very long post from the New Age thread that deals with that Horus issue. Please understand that Make money is a strong speaker, meaning dont be too quick to take offense, just read it for the horus info.

I'm not saying I agree with his tone but the general repudiation of the Horus parallel.
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1. 57
  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  lol
  
  Yes - and Make Money calls me a communist because I do not believe in god. He also thinks the earth is only 6000 years old.
  
  Not exactly impartial.
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  74
  glendoncabaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I share his view on the latter. With some qualification as usual.
  On the former. I dont believe you!!!! (The exclamation marks will help others). You mean he's let out the secret that you were Mao and Castro's personal advisers
  
  Now you'll lose your White House pass. Well everyone is now in love with Castro so you'll be forgiven.
  
  Well if you agree to coach the reggae boyz I'll put in a word for you with my catholic friend.
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earnestshubposted 14 years ago
glendoncaba I am in shock, you still living on the same rock as me?
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1. 74
  glendoncabaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I know it sounds very unscientific. I normally have a very very believe it or not rational approach to things but this one I just work with the biblical scholars and the prophets.
  
  If I throw out literal Creation I throw out the bible. And so I accept the literal creation because the bible does not deny it.
  
  Leap of faith for me. Big leap. Nearly fell several times
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  81
  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I can understand it would take a leap, it does not seem at all supported by that which is known scientifically and has a large mass of empirical evidence for support.
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glendoncabaposted 14 years ago
And the scientists who are creationists have come up with some remarkable studies.
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, and some of the remarks have only four letters.LOL
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spidergirl364posted 14 years ago
Because its easy for cowards to hide behind a computer screen and say whatever they want.
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1. 64
  Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Ah, you are so right about cowards and computer screens! I take it you are a non-believer, since you are a coward, right?
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sandra rinckposted 14 years ago
Do we have an official list!
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Mishaposted 14 years ago
An official list of what Your Majesty?
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sandra rinckposted 14 years ago
ASU's, Viralinspecotrs, Christians spider screen names and much, much more. The irony is always fun.
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Mishaposted 14 years ago
ASU and Virus provider are long gone Your Majesty, but we seem to be infested with spiders lately, you are spot on! Should we send somebody to buy pesticide?
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1. 0
  sandra rinckposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  For me? Sure.
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Mishaposted 14 years ago
For You? Gawd forbid Your Majesty, I would never even think about using pesticide on your precious body. For Hubpages of course.
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  sandra rinckposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  yes, yes, I know what you were referring to. Me lord MetaGod.
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Star Witnessposted 14 years ago
they come against each other because both sides r insecure here.
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Mishaposted 14 years ago
I did not have a moment doubt you know Your Majesty. Look what I got:

Oh, and if you don't mind, I am done for today. Have a great night and I talk to you tomorrow
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