Our Origin
Could Atheists explain to me how we ended up into this existence without the Almighty Creator?
Why should they ?! We do appreciate them accepting them as they are by expressing our Love Of God toward them by our courteous words and actions.
@hakemzrman - You mean that same almighty creator that is incapable of showing himself or even say "hello". That imaginary sky daddy concept that has been brainwashed into people minds since the Middle Bronze Age and there has been countless discoveries made since then, do some research (no the Bible is not a science or history book). Also atheists don't need to explain anything to you.
Why is it up to atheists to provide an answer?
As an atheist it is perfectly intellectually honest to disbelieve in your answer - a creator - while having no alternative of my own. I could simply state that I don't know how we got here and that would not, in anyway, make your answer more plausible.
Unrelated to my atheism I have a basic grasp of the discoveries that scientists have made over the centuries which lead me to the conclusion that human beings are the product of evolution. Natural selection has, from the bottom-up, designed and shaped a series of fit survivors that goes back 3.5 Billion years (our oldest fossils of microbes).
Now no one knows for sure, yet, how life started all those billions of years ago. The building blocks that made up the first simple proto-cells are very simple organic chemicals. Human beings and all lifeforms on Earth are made up of the same basic elements are the Earth beneath us and are driven by perfectly natural chemical reactions.
Of course there are still areas we don't understand, such as the origin of the Universe. Many believers look at mysteries like the origin of the Cosmos as an opportunity to stick God into that gap however this is flawed reasoning. That isn't to say that there are no gods, there may be, but no evidence has ever been found in any field of scientific study which suggests the intervention or existence of a supernatural realm.
One of the most powerful things we can do as human beings is admit to our own ignorance, admit that we don't know. When it comes to the origin of the Cosmos and other mysteries I honestly don't know the answer however I do not see that ignorant gap in my knowledge as needing to be filled by God.
This is for a number of reasons, first is that doing so is an argument from ignorance, such as the Cosmological Argument which is roughly stated as, "The universe must have a cause, therefore this cause is God". The second reason is that every mystery that human beings have ever filled with a God it has later been filled with a better more accurate explanation. Volcanoes and thunderbolts were once imbued with agency, they were either gods themselves or were the tools of gods and yet we understand now what causes these events is not supernatural. Zeus and Athena are not literally atop mount Olympus.
We see this hallmark even in the gods of today. The God of the Bible, for example, often visits plagues upon people. There are literally dozens of places in the Bible where a disease, plague, famine or drought are caused by God yet we understand today that diseases are caused by germs, viruses and bacteria, not by angry gods.
While a belief in a God might help believers reach some level of spiritual, moral or theological understanding that they have not before reached the idea of God has no practical application in the sciences and the sciences have yielded amazing results when it comes to extending our lives, preventing disease, and understanding reality. Gods, at one time, served as explanations for natural phenomenon, the earliest religions imbued natural forces with animism and used myth and personification to understand the seasons, natural disasters, disease, etc. We have moved beyond that as a species and so in my estimation religions are hold overs of a primitive time in human thinking that serve no purpose other than personal comfort and, perhaps, stimulating charity work (neither function actually requires there to be a belief in god let alone an actual god existing).It is up to atheists to provide an answer because religious guy do have one so atheists should too.. and good, it seems you've got one.
However, from your writing, you differentiating between God and Creator. Actually both are the same, but I rather calling Creator than God. Indeed, it is not logic that everything just popped up into existence without being created, like a car must have its manufacturer, as well as humankind.
And The Creator must have purposes for our existence. Religious people can explain the purposes but I don't find any Atheist that can explain why they came into existence, instead they say when you die, game over and nothing happens. If this is the case, logically I am sorry to say that Atheists lived useless as useless as they will die(since existence is useless/no purpose, as they say)It is not up to atheist to provide an answer to you because you're brainwashed into denying credible answers. The answer religious people have are rip-offs from previous religious answer based on nothing. Religious people can not explain anything and use the default answer "God did it".
Yes, but you could also Google it. I would only launch into such an explanation if I thought there was some kind of constructive point to it. Like you really wanted to understand that point of view rather than just rebut it.
P skinner I would rather you explain the meaning
Because you believe it. Google is another opinion.
We are asking you the meaning, interesting to hear from you.
Not to spark a literary fire, but I think the term would be "plausible deniability". No evidence to confirm nor deny said existence, yet vocally belligerent toward the pro stance. Not that they are vocally anti, just under a shield of personally manifested protection rule against the doctrines from which they came, and now appear to have seceded from, but smart enough to reserve the right to point the finger at those who remain subordinate to said doctrines.
It is neither new, suprising or something to be counted as debatable. Atheism is nothing more than a teenager at peak of puberty. The offspring of the Moral Dilemma aka The Ism. Demanding the car keys, a $50 and a Reason, from dear old mum (sensation) and dad (science), yet rolling eyes and hissing "whatever", because they just want to get the --bleep-- out of the --bleeping-- house and party with their "new" friends, before the folks start fighting again over how "it" all came about.
The funny of it, like all exhausted parents, mum and dad have been here longer, they're smarter and at the end of the day, they just want the spoiled --bleeping-- brat to move out alrrady, get a real job and stop mooching off them both... Ha!
Can any believer explain to me how/when/where/why god came into existence and where it is now?
"by accident" does not indicate how, when, where or why.
"Here" does not indicate where. In Paris? On Mars? Betelgeuse?wilderness! there is no God! get over it!
LOL Re-read the OP.
Always looking for new information; the OP implicitly assumes a god and I just thought that this new poster (to me, anyway) might have some.Impossible?? Very difficult to prove that something that happens outside our universe is impossible!
If there was a god or other "creator" of our universe it had to be outside it.
Ofcourse! The omnipresent Spirit is everywhere, therefore when mankind speaks of the Creator God, we do speak in present tense ,- "IS". He 'IS' in the past, He 'IS' now, he 'IS' tomorrow - He is f o r e v e r.
What meaning can it have to say something EXISTS outside of time and space?
One of things that makes it very hard for people to wrap their minds around the modern concept of God is that this God is defined by what it is NOT rather than what it is. This God is "beyond time and space", whatever the hell that means. How can something be said to exist if it's only characteristic is that it is BEYOND ordinary existence? Not to mention the fact that it takes up no space and does not have the dimension of time in which to act.
For example let's say there is a God, an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient and omnibenevolent God as many modern Christians suggest. This God is outside the Universe and at some point created the Universe. This means that there was, at some point outside of time and space, a God without a Universe.
So what meaning do God's characteristics even have in this state "prior" to him creating the Universe. Power cannot be used without time and something to act upon. Knowledge cannot be had until there is something to know beyond oneself (which there wouldn't be in the absence of the Universe). God cannot be present everywhere before there is time and space to be present in. And God cannot have any knowledge of how a group of living beings should interact when there aren't any living beings other than him.
The idea of God having any meaningful "existence" outside of the Universe makes no sense. It involves special pleading, meaning allowing God to break basic laws of logic to even exist in such a way. For example many theologians say God is a spirit-mind, a non-physical mind, but there is no evidence that such a thing could possibly exist. There is also no reason to think that "Existence" has any coherent meaning outside the Universe or that a mind could somehow possess the power to spontaneously create matter out of nothing.Outside of the implicit assumption that there is only one universe (unfounded and unprovable as far as I can see) I find no fault with your reasoning.
Given that, the unassailable conclusion is that there is no creator of the universe, whether called God or anything else. The universe then created itself, which is indeed hard to wrap our minds around. Perhaps it was "always" there, with time starting fresh with the Big Bang with or without any cause.Even if there are multiple Universes we can assume they have some form of matter/time/space, they must possess some dimension or attribute that distinguishes them from the imaginary or hypothetical. So if God was just an alien from another Multiverse that would turn most people's version of God on its head. Same can be said if it turned out there was a God but he formed spontaneously via some weird quantum interaction, if its a god concept that doesn't jive with the big religions of the world its likely to get rejected.
I'm not married to the idea of there only being one Universe but most theists seem to be, especially folks like William Lane Craig who bank on the idea that the Universe began from absolute nothing, ex nihilo.
And yes the alternative, of a self-created Universe, is perplexing to the extreme but I leave that kind of confusing stuff to the physicists.Personally, I still kind of hang with the cyclic universe: Big Bang, expansion, compression, repeat. No evidence (except that which is negative), but then we don't know it all yet. When (if) we find out what is causing the accelerating expansion maybe we'll know more. Or maybe, when the concentration is low enough, all the light quanta of those uncounted stars over billions of years, will begin turning to matter.
Kathryn L Hill, we are well too late with this God- no -God polemic. David has wrote over seven hundred years BC "Godless fools say in their hearts, 'There is no God.' They are corrupt. They do disgusting things. There is no one who does good things." (Ps. 14:1) During that era wasn't speculative atheism, but practical - a denial of moral government of God - that fool and wicked become almost synonymous. However, there wasn't a forum discussion; David says of 'godless-fool' has 'said in his secret thoughts, or within himself, what he is afraid or ashamed to utter with his lips...' Is anything new under the sun? The Man from Galilee said"... good tree produces good fruit, but a fatten tree produces bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, and a rotten tree cannot produce good fruit." A simple lesson of the nature.
Not too bright was he (David)? "Anyone that doesn't accept my version of my god is corrupt, does disgusting things and no good things. And by the way, lets kill some more of the neighboring tribe and get some slaves."
Mr.wilderness, Sir in this case the above comment has been directed to Kathryn L Hill not to to someone who suggests ''lets kill some more of the neighboring tribe and get some slaves."
?? The point was that the tribes of Israel did that, not you! I don't know you at all, but certainly presume you would never consider such actions as the ancient tribes performed - they were not a particularly moral group by our standards.
Michael-Milec speaks to me because I do not refute him. I listen respectfully.
You however, do refute him, even though his devotion to God is apparent.
I deeply respect devotion to God.
His faith is very profound, yet it does not phase you at all.
I am baffled by such irreverence.
You are small, the sun is big. Hydrogen churning into helium and our very lives are dependent on the phenomenon of the sun.
You respect nature. I respect nature, Michael-Milec respects nature when he says "The omnipresent Spirit is everywhere, therefore when mankind speaks of the Creator God, we do speak in present tense,"IS".
He 'IS' in the past.
He 'IS' now.
He 'IS' tomorrow
He is f o r e v e r."
Katheryn there is no you if there is no God .If you are not impossible
Then why should his person be. Explain.My point is this:
I can become aware of God because I exist.
Thankfully, I am.
Blind obedience can shut down sense of "I am " where joy of life exists.
Tyranny comes in the form of, "You do as I say, because I say so according to what is convenient for me."
More and more teachers have this type of attitude.
We need to have respect for the willing obedience children naturally have. They love us. They come into the world loving us and respecting us. We really need to return it to them. They set a good example for us. Do we notice it?Your explanation is that you do not want to believe because he is of law and order, no different then your local but more strick without love.
His laws were for ancient Isreal, but his principles are still intact.
People have lived their life's as they wish anyway, he has not forced any to follow his advice , but people choose their own conclusions.I believe in God. I find God because I love, have faith and need God. Some Christians do not inspire the love of God or even reveal that a personal relationship with God, based on one's faith and/or need, is possible. Instead, they psychologically whip us, force us and make us feel guilty. Then they inform us we are going to hell, the consequences for not blindly obeying.
BLAH.
Even religious guy cannot explain about the origin of Creator/God, instead they have faith about their Creator existence, because logically they should, because as a car has a manufacturer, so human should too. If a car has been manufactured and its purpose is to transport human from one place to another, then human should have one too. Plus, if a car has instruction manual, detailing how to use it or drive it, by manufacturer, then logically human also should have one from their manufacturer/Creator.
In this world, or in this reality, our logic valid ONLY for this reality/realm. It is scientifically proven. Rules/laws in this 3 dimension world won't apply in 2 dimension, 4, 5,6....and so on. For example, in realm of dream, we think it is logic that human can fly, but in this reality right now it isn't..
Thus, we'll never be able to answer with our logic, to explain something where our logic does not apply, like to explain how/when/where/why Creator/God came into existence and where it is now.
And how/when/where/why Creator/God came into existence and where it is now, it is not a relevant question. The real question is, does Creator existed? And by using our logic in this realm, Creator existed because we were existed, otherwise there will be nothing at all.
And when Creator was existed, logically there should be two ways: one which follows His Will(Heaven thing) and another one which does not(Hell thing). Like in this muslims' manual book from their Creator:
[Quran 2: 56] And give glad tidings (O Muhammad) unto those who believe and do good works; that theirs are Gardens underneath which rivers flow; as often as they are regaled with food of the fruit thereof, they say: this is what was given us aforetime; and it is given to them in resemblance. There for them are pure companions; there for ever they abide.
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Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."
So don't you want to take a leap of faith? Or become an occupant of terrible Hell, filled with regret, having to suffer alone?This is a very provocative and challenging question Wilderness, you are also labelled as non-believer, although in a democratic society you are entitled to practice your own religion or belief, but to challenge the existence of God is something!. Believing science as the source of all knowledge and wisdom is inadequate for its simplicity "science is man's creation" Let's put it in a philosophical way,..that each person is born "Tabula Rasa" in latin means individual minds are blank slate or tablet upon which the environment or nature's write. The knowledge that you acquired comes from our senses(sight, hearing, touch, smell, and taste) Our senses interpret ideas in our brains that are further worked upon through cognitive processes.Right? but here's the rub, Our perception is affected by a number of variables such as past experience, educational background, etc. and motivation at the time of perceiving can drastically alter what we see or think? Most non -believers think that they have the answers because of science but, if it cannot be answered, becomes inconsistencies or mysteries that cannot be explained by a God or because Atheist cannot justify its existence or because science is delimited by man's knowledge?Your existence here is not by accident ..there is a purpose why you are here, but to discover it that's your mission in life. If you don't believe in God or Creator, Why are you here?
You are correct - if questions cannot be answered then I don't have an answer. Is that not better than making up an answer that fits but never bothering to check and verify it is true? An incorrect answer often gives as much emotional satisfaction as a correct one, but that doesn't make it true - just satisfying. Insufficient, to a lot of people, as the desire for truth is more important than merely having an answer.
Why am I here? A question without an answer, except one made up to satisfy curiosity or desire. Perhaps there IS no answer - there IS no reason.I believe there is a answer to everthing , it is just there are things not open for us to know at the present time.
Example who would be the Messiah was a sacred secret, up until he validated that he was the one.
There are things Christ talked about and revealed about the heavens while here. Joh 16:12“I still have many things to say to you, but you are not able to bear them now.
Many things we know now , generations earlier did not know, like DNA.
Many people jailed and in prisoned for false witness and injustice by the system.
The point is every creation born has a puropse, Adam
Was to care for the earth and animals to beautify the earth global, and he was provided a helper Eve
So her purpose as well, but that puropse is still valid
GOD Almighty has not allowed that reason to disappear for their children. We will have our paradise.
2Pe 3:13But there are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell.
A promise made is a promise done . Will many help.AWW, don't be serious about it, I'm just trying to elicit your reaction to a different level, judging from the response, you have a vibrant discussion. Nice topic! Whatever the future holds, we have always our personal choice. Thanks.
Nature
"1 the phenomena of the physical world collectively, including plants, animals, the landscape, and other features and products of the earth, as opposed to humans or human creations.
2 the basic or inherent features of something, esp. when seen as characteristic of it."
The second meaning is interesting isn't it?Respect for nature the one common thing about both theists and atheists, I would say.
Why do we respect nature?
I would say that God is IN the universe AS nature (and everything else, including dark matter and all the elements). Not outside of it.
God is a rock and God is Gold.
God is light and lightening.
God is nature.
God is the qi flow within us. God is our consciousness.
God is His own consciousness.
Can we feel it?
That is the question we each have to answer for ourselves.I don't believe in God, or creator.. the source of it all came from the big bang. My question has always been what put the things in place to create the big bang?? I don't know the answer to this and yet for those that say the creator always existed well.. who created the creator then?? Are you saying this being came from nothing? How? What I do know is that the one constant throughout the universe is that energy exists, everything is made up of this, including us. Energy doesn't just disappear, it's reabsorbed into something else. I'm not religious but I am spiritual and I do know that we go to a different plane of existence when we pass away but I don't believe this is the result of a god or creator I believe this is just part of the universe. It's hard for us to think outside the box, or to think about what we can't perceive. You have to stop assuming that what you see is all there is to it.
In a democratic society, we have always the freedom of choice, for the sake of friendly discussion, let me ask you since you don't believe in God or Creator, Why are you here? What is the purpose of life? Do you believe that your presence here is a coincidence? Is spiritualism the same with religion or belief? Are you an Animist nor a Christian?
The Bigbang Theory, according to standard theory- our universe sprang into existence as "singularity" around 13.7B years ago? Where did it come from? we don't know, Why it did appear?, We don't know. It appeared out of nowhere for reasons unknown, most Christian won't give much credence to it, In other words, Christians believed the presence of a Supernatural Being that created these things beyond human comprehension, the source of all this energy observed and feel comes from the Creator? Let's take an atom, the basic element of all living and non-living things, Why electrons don't collide with protons and neutrons in the nucleus? or why planets in our universe follow a specific path? In other words, there is an order to all things, without order there will be chaos in the universe, and that same order of things was enjoyed by man since creation?Lots of questions, all answered very simply and quickly by "God did it". A pat answer - God did everything - but without any supporting evidence at all, so why is it accepted as true? Simply because it answers the questions without truly answering anything?
That simply isn't good enough - we can make up answers to everything, but that doesn't make the answer correct.Why is it he answers others , but not yours , he does , you reject the answer, you reject proof, but he allows
you to express your rejection, As we express his existence.Proof? What proof? "why planets in our universe follow a specific path?" or " since you don't believe in God or Creator, Why are you here?" is supposed to prove what? That we are ignorant (undeniable as we don't know everything there is to know)? Or that we need to make up answers we cannot show to be correct, just to have an answer (seems a silly method of understanding our universe)?
I do not doubt your vision in not seeing what others do see. But that is no excuse to say he does not exist because you have not seen proof, but it could be he he does not want to give you proof when he has others.
So no matter what you say that does not change the truth or another's experience.
And our reality is that we know he is , just as you are you.
That will not change and has not even before our births or past generations.What truth? And why do you think YOU have the truth?
Nowhere in my post will you find that I said god does not exist. If you can, please copy/paste it.
What I DID say is that there is no proof being offered, and there is not. A personal, untested, unverified, unrepeatable experience is not proof of anything even if I accept that it happened, although such an experience is not offered, either.
I understand you have a perception of reality that differs from mine. All you need to do to change MY perception is provide proof that yours is correct. Until that is done there is no truth being offered and your affirmation that your perception IS true is worthless. A perception need not be true, after all, no matter how much you claim it is.
So your communication here in writing has no proof you exist? Should I ignore your words your hubs as proof ?
What is good a proof of you is also good for him.
And he has more proof then you .which you can not create what he has already done.Great! Where are the words that a god wrote? With, of course, proof that it wrote the words, not someone else.
Who wrote about Adam and Eve. Centuries of details
No human can know but God who revealed to his penman, secretaries who are not bias .to the good and bad conduct of humans mentioned.
Explain how is it that we know exact age of Adam of death, the reason that his offspring die.
Death is real and an experience that have touched us all.
You do not want to consider the proof given for your personal reasons , when the proof of others is good enough for them.
So with that conclusion He will manifest himself when he wants to not because of the of doubt in humans.The Bible is full of myths stolen from other religions. It is far from the Word of God.
Are you a myth, you are woman, is birth a myth, aging, death, earth , moon, stars , sun, all exist all are true. What is a myth about these things.
No one knows who wrote those words. First they were passed down through generations by word of mouth, but who actually wrote the words is unknown.
Yes, Centuries of details known to be false. Such as a world wide flood. Or a man living in the belly of a fish.
Some penman claims to have received word from God, but that is unverifiable. A claim does not make it true.
No one knows the exact age of Adam. That, too, is unverifiable. A claim does not make it true. Nor do we know exactly why people die (of old age - disease, etc. we do know about).
Death is real. That is not evidence of a god, let alone proof.
No proof yet to consider. Yes, others consider untested, unproven, unrepeatable personal experiences to be proof. Much like saying "I prayed and then it happened, so it is proof God answered" when it could just as well have been coincidence.
Perhaps he will manifest, perhaps not. Perhaps He is not even there - is nothing but a figment of man's imagination.As an Atheist, let's first put aside the things about Adam, Eve, Bible, Quran, revelations and such kind of things, because those are not the important issues yet to be discussed by an Atheist.
The important thing first to be discussed is that an Atheist must acknowledge the fact, the Science, the simplest logic that everything is made, created, and brought into existence by our Maker/Creator/God. One doesn't need to educate himself with Science in order to understand this but for sure it is a bonus if someone learns Science.
An Atheist, is a person which always talking about Science and logic but ironically, they don't even know what they've talked about, or if they know it they simply just being ignorant, I am sorry to say this but this is the reality.
Your Science and logic said that everything happens for a reason, every action leads to a reaction, it is the simplest rule of Science. Plus, everything has origin otherwise Science is not reliable, and these all consider just the Science alone. For an example, when you've kicked a ball (action), it will fly into the air (reaction). For you to kick, you need energy and energy here is the starter or origin for your action. And all these, starter, action and reaction is valid to be applied to all things in this universe and Science says these all. So according to your Science and logic, don’t you think that anything you do, any action, whether good or bad, is having a ‘reaction’? Simply say like what you do you’ll get it back? If termed in Maker language, Heaven and Hell?
Thus, if an Atheist is a man of Science and knowledge, he shouldn’t reject and can’t even reject the existence of his Maker/Creator/God, even how hard he tried. He just can be ignorant and force himself to believe what he’ll want to believe and held tightly in mind the proverb ‘ignorance is bliss’. However, read further below before saying ignorance is a bliss.
Right now, an Atheist should be worried because there is the existence of Maker, our Maker/Creator/God. When there is Maker, there will be Maker’s Will. When there is Maker’s Will, there will be two ways: way that follows His Will and way that disobey His Will. When follow His Will we’ll be good otherwise good bye. It is like we ask our son to stop taking drugs and if he obeys the command, what would you do and feel? Shouldn’t you feel happy and thus want to rewards something to your beloved son? And what if your son disobey your command to stop taking drugs? Do you feel angry and rage? And feel want to punish your beloved son a bit because of the disobedience? That will be the same way Maker will treat us. So everything in this universe, like analogies I gave previously, are Signs of our Maker, to whom want to think.
Talking about the treatment of our Maker to us if we follow or disobey His Wills, read below what He will offer to one whom submit his wills to Him and one whom doesn’t:
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[Quran 2: 56] And give glad tidings (O Muhammad) unto those who believe and do good works; that theirs are Gardens underneath which rivers flow; as often as they are regaled with food of the fruit thereof, they say: this is what was given us aforetime; and it is given to them in resemblance. There for them are pure companions; there for ever they abide.
Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."
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Quran, is the Last Testament or Last Revelations or Direct Words of our Maker to us. The others, like Bible, Torah and etc. weren’t the pure one because our Maker doesn’t think to preserve their purity because they (Bible, Torah etc.) were meant for certain group of people of certain time period. However, Quran is descended as a mercy for whole humanity whether Americans, African, Chinese, Arabs, and many more, since about 1400 thousand years ago, and until the final day of this Earth:
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Quran (21:107)-“We sent thee not save as a mercy for the peoples.”
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Indeed, I know an Atheist will question, what the purpose of this life, and why our Maker has created us all? Why just don’t create us then there will be no suffering no pain no wars no problems no whatsoever? This has been clearly answered by our Maker below:
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Quran (67:1-2)- Blessed is He in Whose hand is the Sovereignty, and, He is Able to do all things. (1) Who hath created life and death that He may try you which of you is best in conduct; and He is the Mighty, the Forgiving, (2)
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Clearly stated by our Maker that this life is only as a test for us, like college examination. Passed, you’ll get Heaven and eternal life, failed then Hell for you.
Then an Atheist will question again that this Book is just a scam, fake, man-inspired book. Then our Maker has clearly answered again your question below:
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Quran (2:23-24)- And if ye are in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto Our slave (Muhammad), then produce a surah of the like thereof, and call your witness beside Allah if ye are truthful. (23) And if ye do it not - and ye can never do it - then guard yourselves against the Fire prepared for disbelievers, whose fuel is of men and stones. (24)
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Of course, you Atheist will never be able to create even one surah (chapter) like Quran, even if you and all Atheists and associates on this Earth were combined together. How can even you create such a miracle (Maker knows everything even something you can’t imagine)? About 1400 years ago, this Book told us about the accurate proportion of Earth land and Sea, land 28.888888888889% while sea 71.111111111111%, which at the time there is no device to measure to such accuracy. Moreover, about the Big Bang, about atom, about electron orbiting atom, about mountains are pegs for Earth, about fetus development, about pregnancy and birth, about roundness of Earth, and countless more scientific facts that Science at that time still don’t know about all of these. Even more, Muhammad can’t even read and write and does not even went out of Arabs so how does he know about all of these things? If not from our Maker? Thus, all answers an Atheist wanted are answered by our Maker/Creator in His Words, which is Quran, and detailed by Hadith of Last Messenger Muhammad.
Hence I am telling you all Atheists, this is a serious thing, please, you all men of Science and logic, thus you can’t even reject your own Maker/Creator, even how hard you tried. I am delivering this message here as asked by our Creator, to spread peace in Here and peace in Hereafter, and it is for your own benefit not me, because I am already a Believer.
Because this is a serious matter which involving your fate Here and most importantly in Hereafter, so I am here advising you first to get one English-translated Quran and read it wholly because all the answers you want are in there. For extra, you can check YouTube for lectures by a good guy named Dr Zakir Naik, you can search for an example “Dr Zakir Naik+Atheist” in YouTube. This guy talked very good and clear about Atheism, Islam, Buddhism, Christianity, and all, and all his talks are in Q&A modes, between him with atheists, Buddhists, Christians and many more.
Thus, don't you want to take a leap of faith? Or become an occupant of suffering Hell, filled with regret, for eternity, having to suffer alone?Then if you are not accepting the truth and not acknowledge your Maker before your death, this is what you will say in Hereafter:
Quran (33:66)-On the day when their faces are turned over in the Fire, they say: Oh, would that we had obeyed Allah and had obeyed His messenger! (66)
So have fear, otherwise what else can I do to help you.
Correct, " religion is outdated" except the one you make it for yourself then devotedly observe it.
I both think and feel that spirituality/religion should be a playful activity.
Yes and or no: "spirituality / religion" could be a playful activity but not the spiritual-supernatural matter of the living God the Creator of the Universe. We note, the eternal of God is far above "man made religiosity" and as such we read about " It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." Take it or leave it. These matters are not for discussion unless based on solid belief/faith/trust...
I once said to someone had God not left open the option (death) to escape from life, I might have tried to kill him.
There is more, much more to "life" then just killing the body...
God couldn't kill us either. Thus we are here.
Isn't it a bold observation " Couldn't kill us?"- Why should God kill you anyway?
I agree, the word "own" is very significant.
For the lucky ones, one's (own) work is play.
Which is why we say: Each to their own.Dan is the law outdated, all the things that happen to humans still reflect the same outcome, the morals of not stealing, not lying,
Not killing is in our Judicial law system as well
Will you stand up before a judge and break one of these and tell him the laws are outdated.
I would think not, the laws are allowed for our protection even morally as to protect from diseases .
The law keeps you with a public service to protect your life even though imperfect men are in charge. What would the world be like without law, who could live.I agree:
"<What would the world be like without law, who could live?">
These are laws to follow for our own happiness.
(Not to follow to prove blind obedience.)
This is the beauty of HP, freedom of expression as long as you stick to the topic, Ha! For the sake of friendly discussion, suppose there is God or God exist, your going to hell, your rejection of Him is beyond redemption or pardon but Christian God does not exact punishment He is a loving, forgiving and merciful God." Come all of you who are weary and burdened and I will give you rest" When Jesus Christ died on the cross, all our sins were absolved, but it's not a guarantee because of man's sinfulness, we were not able to take advantage of such benevolence. Jesus Christ said, "I am The Truth, The Way, and The Life and whoever follows me shall have eternal life", what a sublime promise to a sinner. So, where is God? After the ascension, Jesus Christ, left God's Spirit to dwell among men in our heart and mind in order to guide us and assist us , but because of our transgressions, the Holy Spirit was barred from ourselves. The workings of the Holy Spirit is manifold, it strengthened us physically and spiritually, it brings peace to our troubled mind, knowledge and understanding. The skeptics would say, give us the proof! No proof that's God's gift.Just an idea. Gudday!
OK - suppose there is a god. How do we find it? Of the thousands proposed, which tale is true? How can we tell?
Well, it's not difficult, from a Christian point of view, accept Jesus Christ as your savior and redeemer, but that's too simple, you have to undergo the following sacraments first in order to find what you seek-Baptism, Confirmation, Confession and Communion and the Holy Spirit will do the rest to guide you. Believe in Jesus Christ, He is your shepherd you'll never get lost. In other Religion, God is called Allah (Muslim), Yahweh (Hebrew) orJehova, Budda (Buddist). For Christians (Christ..)-Jesus Christ, "I am theTruth, the Way, and the Life, whoever follows me shall have eternal life" although to follow Christ is not easy, because of human nature whatever difficulties or inconsistencies encountered, you are not alone the Holy Spirit will be there always to guide you.You see how loving, forgiving and merciful He is. I hope I was able to answer your queries
You did...IF you believe there is a god and it is the Christian one. If you don't, you have not answered as how to find him. And if it is not the Christian/Muslim/Jewish one you have also not answered as everything you said is predicated on that (unfounded) assumption.
The bottom line thus becomes: If you believe in the Christian god, and that is the right story, you can find him because you already have. If either of those is false then you have no answer at all.The truth is he allows himself to be found, by who he wishes, this is not done by the demands of humans especially by people who doubt his existence. As long as he exist that what's important , if he doesn't we will not survive without his breath of life. Man intelligence is limited God almighty unlimited
Sounds like you're saying that if you believe then you believe. And if you don't believe, you never will as the desire is what's important. With enough desire we can convince ourselves of anything, including the existence of a god.
Yes?
well, for non-believers that would be their stand, we can't fathom the unfathomable even Christians, but we are secured with the knowledge that there is One that govern all these things seen and unseen, If we take a philosophical view of a god, the one that you can touch or talk to is already done, finished, then you may ask where is God?, Christians will tell you that God is with us, How? in the form of the Holy Spirit, How's did it happened? If you read the Holy Scriptures, God made manifestations to man before even made a covenant with them, for instance, Noah, the Great Flood? Abraham, Patriarch of Israel, God made his son Isaac to became the leader of the 12 tribes of Israel?. Mosses, the Ten Commandments -the Exodus?, Lot, the burning of Sodom and Gomorrah? and many more, and finally, Jesus Christ, HIs son, who died in the cross to save us and redeem us from our sins. Christian God is loving, forgiving and merciful, so where is God since He died in the cross anyway. After Ascension Jesus Christ came back among the apostles to give the breath of fire, God knows that the Apostles will be weakened by persecution in the propagation of faith, the spirit in the form of fire was given to them to give them strength and to succor them during the time of persecution at Pentecost, but what is the significance of this to an ordinary man?, Jesus said, whoever believed in me shall receive the same and as Christ promised, those who follow and believe in Him, the Holy Spirit dwells and lives with them, that if you believe?A living God. To non-believers, the notion of God will turn into mist and smoke when they are confronted. Just an idea.
No, what you have explained to us is not "just an idea" to you. According to your own way of understanding, it is Truth. I think, guess and surmise that you were sharing your own way of believing based on your own faith in the words of the Bible … I encourage you to just say so.
Then you will not be so afraid of the phase, "each to their own." And you will respect other's own choices and other's own thinking about these matters. As God does. Did He force you to believe?
And did He fulfill His promise to send a Savior only for us to proclaim, "It was just an idea." ?
No. I believe He sent a Savior so that each of us could save ourselves from our own ignorance. As Jesus stated, the harvest is abundant, but the laborers are few. Who are the ones who labor?
Those who use their free (self-guided) will. For them, and them only, the work of enlightenment is play.
The Way I See It
PS I am NOT a "non-believer."
Well, the Truth is NO ORIGIN, I have no idea, we can't fathom what is unfathomable because if you know that, you are no longer Human? How can you ask HIs origin if HE is ahead of you Billions of years? But if one ask you what is your origin or where did you came from, then you know the answers. It is assumed that when you discussed this topic your answers are anchored on facts. If you read my last thread those are Biblical facts! if you are a Christian, you know what it is? Just an idea. Nice discussion!
Thank you for sharing your beliefs.
My belief is this: One can know the truth of God, life, origin and all things physical and metaphysical according to one's own efforts to contact God directly through intuition and sincere devotion/focus.
We start the process of enlightenment through honest desire (willingness) for God/Truth.
Sharing My Own Belief.
You are ask a question and the reply is why you do not have an answer is weak. Really the answer is self explanatory the answers are facing humans everyday
generations to generation the fact that all things on this planet keep us living, by supplied food sources of the earth producing our needs, the sun
Circles our planet with out our control, the stars benifit us as well, for nighttime light,
The earth recycles itself, and we do not float out into space , we have a force of gravity to anchor all humans and animals and structures we build.
Next we have oxygen from plants that provide us
What we need to breath, many more things
So as an example if I said I want to posses an aquarium of tropics, what is the first thing you would think I need to have, a the home of an Aquarium, the oygen, the heat, the scenery of their habitat, which includes plants , wood, rocks, and Also I do not want to forget they need salt water not the water we drink.
And last the tropical fish to live in this Aquarium home.
Why is it man limits his eye to his level , but he can not see the bigger picture that we are in.
Look at the seas of water and the Seperation lines,
Look how the sun does not ever come to close to our planet in a perfect spot, the moon as well.
These are the proof , yet people reject the answers , that is your choice.
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