Who will blink in the coming showdown between Trump and the state CA?

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   jackclee lmposted 7 years ago

   The showdown over sanctuary cities policy supported by the Governor of California and many mayors.
   The questions is who has the legal upper hand and who will win in the end?

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      colorfuloneposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      Well, its like this "pride goes before for a fall" ... California Senate leader, Kevin de León admitted that half of his family lives in America illegally and they are using false forms of government identification.  Now, isn't that in most cases in the real world considered a FELONY?
      
      Lawmakers debate making California a “Sanctuary State”
      *  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUr8pYr5AXs
      
      This is like la la land to me.  I really don't think CA is going to win this battle, I would be very surprised if lawlessness wins.  Why not do things legally is me question. 
      
      Illegal aliens who request a privilege to become citizens of the US do not have Constitutional rights,  in regard to applications for admission.   
      Landon v Plasencia, 459 U.S. 23, 32 (1982).

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         jackclee lmposted 7 years agoin reply to this

         I agree and yet, there are many on the side of sanctuary cities...
         I can never understand the logic of that.

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            Paul Wingertposted 7 years agoin reply to this

            Are you willing to pick the fields for minimum wage? Didn't think so. CA has the largest economy in the US, 6th largest in the world. Go ahead and cut their funding! For every dollar CA gives the feds, the feds give CA about 78 cents in federal funding. CA doesn't need the feds. The feds need CA! Now if only WA, OR and NV join in.

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               jackclee lmposted 7 years agoin reply to this

               Paul, CA has a huge debt too -
               http://www.usdebtclock.org/state-debt-c … clock.html
               
               I personally am not willing to work the fields but there are some Americans willing given the poor jobs situation. Also, we need a guest workers program to replace the illegal migrants working the fields.
               The sanctuary cities policy is unlawful and will be stopped one way or another. We can't have another Kate Steinle incident that goes nuanswered. Are you willimg to sacrifice your loved ones in the name of PC?

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                  Paul Wingertposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                  CA can stop paying Fed taxes and easily fix any debts and start a program to legalize the illegals. Whole states across the nation (especially in the deep south) thump their noses that federal laws (or not enforcing them), what's the difference?

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                     wildernessposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                     How?  For every $ Ca sends to DC, the feds return $1.18 in federal spending.  How will that loss repay debts?  Especially if they simply open their borders to anyone that wants to come and use the new Ca. welfare program?

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                        promisemposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                        They could easily tax all goods that come into California ports from China on the way to the U.S.

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                           wildernessposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                           Nah - cheaper to unload in Mexico and ship them up with labor at 1/10th what California wants.
                           
                           But taxiing all chinese imports at 20% won't pay for millions of new, non-working citizens.

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                        Paul Wingertposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                        "For every $ Ca sends to DC, the feds return $1.18 in federal spending." BS. Try again.

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                           SherrieWeynandposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                           Exactly. California gives the Feds now than we get in return. Illegals can and do pay federal taxes through the use of TINs issued, and contrary to popular belief illegal, undocumented people are not able to collect any welfare or foodstamps. It's a simple Google search to verify any of that information, but people refuse to hear it because it very well might invalidate their arguments.

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                              wildernessposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                              I'd say you haven't sat in the welfare office much, and watched as dozens of people come through.  People that can't speak the language and require an interpreter to find out how much they can squeeze the American public for. 
                              
                              It may not be legal but it certainly happens - sanctuary areas don't ask for documentation and make it easy.  Estimates run over $10,000 per person (person, not family, for what it costs the country for illegals, and that is NOT being made up by the tiny number of illegals that pay federal taxes.

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      promisemposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      If Trump overreacts, the Calexit ballot amendment will likely pass. It will set up a greater possibility for California to secede if Trump cuts funding to the state. Why send billions in tax dollars to DC and get nothing back?
      
      Imagine the economic and political damage if Oregon and Washington state joins California. The remaining United States would be cut off from the Pacific coast.
      
      http://www.yescalifornia.org/

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         jackclee lmposted 7 years agoin reply to this

         There is no over reaction here. He is just enforcing the law that exists. CA will not succeed. What will they do? Become part of Mexico? Maybe then we can stop the illegals coming here...haha

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            promisemposted 7 years agoin reply to this

            What law? The executive order facing many lawsuits and court challenges?
            
            If California broke away, it would make an enormous amount of money by charging tariffs on goods (mostly from China) that come to California ports and transport over their new border into the United States.
            
            The cost of our goods and services will go up as a result.
            
            California already gets less federal money than it contributes to the U.S. as a whole. So it would be a win-win for the California economy and a lose-lose for the rest of us.

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               jackclee lmposted 7 years agoin reply to this

               We are talking about immigration laws and the unlawful sanctuary cities policy... You as a mayor or State governor does not have the right to override Federal laws. For too long we have allowed this to go on and now we have 20 million illegals working here. We also have 95 million Americans out of the work force. What is wrong with this picture?

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                  promisemposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                  I am opposed to illegal immigration as much as anyone I know. I'm just saying that Trump needs to be thoughtful about how he fights California because it may come back to bite him as well as the rest of us.
                  
                  If he really wants to fight illegal immigration -- which I doubt -- he would be much more aggressive with punishing the businesses that hire them. They are just as much responsible for creating this mess as anyone.

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                     jackclee lmposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                     Very true, but why not start with deporting felony illegals. That is part of the fight to end sanctuary cities policy. Who could be against that? Of all the immigration debate, I would have thought this was the common ground and yet I guess I was wrong. The people who support illegal immigrants refuse to give one inch. I think they are misguided. They will alienate most clear thinking Americans.

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                        promisemposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                        I agree.

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               RJ Schwartzposted 7 years agoin reply to this

               California won't break away - that's a pipe dream at best.  If you really look at just how difficult separating would be, you'd see the mountain of work it would take to accomplish.  Remember that California gets its drinking water from other states - first major hurdle.  Who will defend the state?  And once every US Federal building is closed, and all federal employees leave, what happens?  It's much bigger than just talk.

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                  colorfuloneposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                  45.8% of CA is owned by the federal government, so talk about CalExit cracks me up!  Its kind of silly. It is important to fight for states rights over the federal government's though. The federal government needs to be ripped apart and put back together again so that 35 million people don't work for the federal government anymore.  How many people do we need working for the federal government?  One hundred thousand competent people, maybe not even that many.
                  
                  What do those tens of millions of incompetent people do for jobs then?  Manufacturing products that we now buy from China, (once the banks crash there isn't going to be any world trade and the government will shut down).

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                     RJ Schwartzposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                     Agreed - and the ones that stay need to be kept on pay scales that are equivalent to real jobs, none of this $100k and up for being a bureaucrat

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                        colorfuloneposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                        Oh, for sure!  There is no reason anyone should receive the maximum federal paychecks if they don't or can't perform at a level of excellence.  Unless of course they have special favor for doing something unethical.  wink

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         wildernessposted 7 years agoin reply to this

         If Trump cuts funding to California, the possibility of secession will be zero.  Same as if he doesn't cut it.  The possibility of a vote to secede may rise slightly, but not the possibility of secession.
         
         California receives $1.18 in federal spending, grants, etc. for every $1 it pays in federal taxes.  The "billions sent to DC for nothing in return" just isn't there.
         
         If California, Ore and Wa. succeeds in seceding, how long do you think it would be until Northern Cal., southern Or and southern Wa. secede from the states and petition for re-admittance into the US?  Those states are no more solid in their insanity than the rest of the country is.

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            promisemposted 7 years agoin reply to this

            I think we are using different sources of information. The reports I found show that California receives fewer federal dollars than it gives.
            
            https://wallethub.com/edu/states-most-l … ment/2700/
            
            One in three California voters support the CalExit amendment. If Trump continues the attacks or cuts funding, it won't take much more for the amendment to win.

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               wildernessposted 7 years agoin reply to this

               I personally prefer some actual numbers, not an artificial "rank" that is neither described nor defined.  One could find taxes paid and federal spending levels for each state, but I'm satisfied that the arithmetic is done correctly.
               
               http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-03-0 … l-spending
               
               Of course, it's awfully easy to juggle those numbers into almost anything.  "funding" (your link), for instance, is not "spending" (my link) - the federal money spent on, say, a research grant in a federal facility is money that will remain in the state but is not "funding" a state controlled expense.  Money going into a military base, or into a manufacturing plant building a tank or plane is the same; it will be multiplied many times inside California, but will not be counted in "funding".  Just "spending".
               
               All it takes is to double the voters willing to vote to secede.  And to forget the results of the last (only) attempt at doing that, pretending that their vote will actually mean something. 
               
               (as an aside - do you think Californians voting to secede have any intention of paying their portion of the national debt? Or any debt, whether personal or state, owed to anyone at all?)

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                  promisemposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                  My mistake. That link goes to a study whose deeper numbers were used in other articles. This one shows that CA sent $4.2B and got back $3.9B over a 30-year period.
                  
                  http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailycha … scal-union
                  
                  Either way, please don't read too much into my original post. My points are simple:
                  
                  - Trump did threaten to cut funding to the state.
                  
                  - Californians are growing more in favor of a state constitution change that would make it easier to cut ties to the U.S.
                  
                  - If Trump cuts funding, why would the state want to pay federal taxes?

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                     jackclee lmposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                     We faught a civil war to preserve the union. Do you really think CA will be allowed to leave? Be real.

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                        promisemposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                        Do you really think we would invade California?

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                           jackclee lmposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                           No invasion necessary. Never under estimate the power of the purse. When funding is pulled, we will see how CA react...? They are depended on big government and $$$.

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                              promisemposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                              Actually, they are not. Some sources (Wilderness found differently) show that California contributes more tax dollars to the federal government than it gets back.
                              
                              And like I said on other posts, it can easily tax goods coming into its ports that the  federal government currently receives. So if anything, the feds lose.

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                                 jackclee lmposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                                 That is not the point. Do you think a State can run a deficit year after year? Like the US government?
                                 Do you think the State can print money like the US govenrment? Do you think they have gold in reserve like Fort Knox?
                                 The reason we survived all these years on deficits is the value of the dollar in world exchanges. Without that, the paper would be worthless. Remember after WWII, German Marks was worthless...

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                                    promisemposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                                    I was addressing your point that California is dependent on the U.S. But to your next points, I agree with your concern about running a deficit.
                                    
                                    Most countries don't have a gold reserve like the U.S. and are surviving without our chaos. A state that becomes a country can print currency like any other country.

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                     wildernessposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                     Absolutely he threatened to cut funding to a state that refuses to follow federal laws.
                     
                     I actually doubt that Californians are growing in favor of seceding. Any more than Texans are (or were before Trump )
                     
                     For the same reason I want to: it is the law and I go to jail if I don't pay.  Isn't that why we ALL pay taxes?
                     
                     Of the three, #2 is important.  Almost as important as the legal impossibility of secession.

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                        promisemposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                        Wilderness, I highly doubt it too. Saner minds will get more control over the situation.
                        
                        But I used to doubt that our country would ever get to this point. I'm starting to think that anything is possible.
                        
                        By the way, I just saw a poll saying that even Republican Californians are starting to line up with the Democrats against Trump.

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                           wildernessposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                           LOL  If we can elect a Donald Trump, anything could happen.
                           
                           Well yes, Republican politicians hate him - that's been a given for a long time.  And there's an awful lot of people out there incapable of distinguishing fact from lie; with the amount of crap that's being thrown about I don't doubt for a moment that there are those that wish they hadn't voted for him.

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   Paul Wingertposted 7 years ago

   

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   ahorsebackposted 7 years ago

   Two border walls should be considered , the Mexican wall and one on the Cali border to the normal states of the US............Let them secede  , who will then pay their outstanding state deficits ,  'we the people ' ?
   
   They are a failed state -
   
   
   
   Let them fail !  Or like Chicago, Detroit , etc.  Trump should move in and force feed them into a  little reality , as to national security , economics ,  and general  apathy to ALL reality !

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      Paul Wingertposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      The orange man-baby doesn't face reality. How can he impose it on anyone else? CA can stop paying fed taxes and use it towards fixing their debt. Problem solved.

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         ahorsebackposted 7 years agoin reply to this

         And somehow you don't think that precedence will  cause a reaction from the feds ?
         Better read your civil war history .
         Americans , real Americans , already look at California as a political -  financial liability .

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         RJ Schwartzposted 7 years agoin reply to this

         Everyone on this debate has been civil except you Paul - is the name calling helping or hurting your narrative?

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   andyb123posted 7 years ago

   no silly

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   PhoenixVposted 7 years ago

   I'm not a resident of California but can I vote for them to secede from the Union?

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   PhoenixVposted 7 years ago

   Instead of california seceding maybe the US could sell california, to China or soros or somebody.

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