I have recently read this and am wondering what your forum responses will be ?
Anyone ?
Does "educated" mean formal, classroom, education? If so, it appears that liberals are somewhat (not "far more") educated than conservatives.
If it means learning the ability to think and reason, if it means learning to be self sufficient, if it means learning how to support ones self, then I'd have to give the award to conservatives in general.
Education involves the seeking of facts, and learning about what is the truth, and what is not. Indoctrination is aimed at influencing people to believe in facts, without being able to back up these newfound facts with anything but opinion. You can be indoctrinated into a political party, a cult, or a belief system.
A good deal of formal education involves reading books to see what others think and then incorporating those opinions into one's own world view. My entire college education, outside of the sciences and PE, consisted of this and you're 100% correct; it is indoctrination, not learning how to reason or think. It IS seeking of facts...but those facts are no more than conclusions/opinions of someone else.
I believe that liberals are more educated or least more open minded than conservatives. Liberals see all sides of the issue. Also, liberals realize that there are differences which should be accepted. Conservatives subscribe to the purview that it is their way or no way. Conservatives are quite uncomfortable, even threatened by differences. They feel that differences are a threat to their particular world order. For example, in liberal households, there may be a conservative child which is fine with liberals. However, in conservative households if there is a liberal or individualistic child, conservative parents browbeat or use other psychological tactics to get their child into the conservative line.
Depends on your definition of "educated".
Gender studies (Rutgers)
Wasting time on the internet (UP)
Critical theory and social justice (Occidental),
Tattoos, piercings and body adornments (Pitzer),
The sociology of Miley Cyrus (Skidmore),
Being bored (Brown)
A google search showed multiple articles making conflicting claims. According to one, Pew Research found (in multiple studies) that Republicans were more informed, generally, than Democrats and that subsets (like the Tea Party) tended to be more educated than the whole of either party.
What, exactly, does this prove? To me, not much. Level of education in one field of study does not indicate a higher ability to make better choices in governance. It might only give one a bit of an edge in topics related to one's chosen profession. I don't think I would necessarily believe someone with a degree in marine biology had a better grasp on subjects like economics, immigration or tax law. Only a fool (or a person very, very insecure in their ability to give reasoned and rational explanations for their opinions on such topics) would argue otherwise.
Live to learn, I will carefully step around the edge here, and try not to fall into that lot of fools you mentioned. While I agree with most of your comment, I would offer a thought on its closing.
I can see the civic exposure involved in getting an advanced education, your marine biologist for example, as also being a bit of a life education. One that might add to the generally informed idea that you attribute to Republicans, (although I again generally agree with that, I would say Conservatives rather than Republicans).
GA
This whole conversation is beneath the level of intelligence and maturity of most adults. It's funny because the far left appears to find conservatives to be ignorant, mean spirited and uncaring. The far right appears to believe that most liberals are educated beyond their level of intelligence.
Wouldn't it be wonderful if, instead of insulting and dismissing the other side, we all attempted to hear each other, understand what factors have brought each of us to our unique conclusions, respect that journey and attempt to find common ground?
Let me clarify my post, I read an article saying being Liberally "educated" means there is far more the chance that liberal ideologies are based on the group mentality . Ie. An agenda, a pre- planed and Early education instilled pattern of intellectual growth. ..... political .."group think".?
This is a political talking point promulgated by powerful people (who, by the way, are highly educated) to cast doubt upon the findings of scientists and other scholars. Their goal is to avoid answering for their actions that contribute to the degradation of the planet and the foundations of culture, economics, and democracy. You are being led around by the nose and don't know it. Maybe you need to read a book or two. :-)
Essentially the article asked , simply , Why have liberals continue straight down the road of defeatism with the Clinton campaign born obstructionism given the total negativity of that path. At some point the acceptance of and the turning away from that defeat would be the natural path to walk except , that "group think " is the glue holding them together and the slime keeping them from progressing .
Try answering instead of dodging .
I responded directly to your premise by stating it was an invention to justify ignoring or minimizing the results of academic research and scientific findings. Just because you don't like my answer does not mean I was dodging.
You are buying into a theory promulgated by rich, well-educated capitalists who want the masses to remain dumbed down, so the powerful can tell them what to think. You are the one buying into a premise without presenting any real evidence to support it. I am likewise countering your premise.
You don't like it? Fine. My premise is just as well-supported as yours, i.e., not at all.
That sounds a lot like my 'take' on this matter, as well.
Now hold on Cred, don't interrupt them. It' getting good, and they are both making valid points, albeit the agreement with that validity depends on which side of the fence you are standing on.
Happily, I find myself confidently standing with one foot on each side of that fence. While I can find agreement with ahorseback's "group think" point, (even if he didn't mention the Right has the same problem), I can also agree with Vanessajanes point of the "promulgated talking point."
GA
Relative to the points of view of conservatives, someone has to be the 'devil's advocate'. This lady was sole in expressing this perspective, just making sure that it was not an isolated one. Do you really think that the rightwing sorts do not have its own form of "group think"? From my perspective the Right is more inlockstep in its thinking beyond that even possible by the left. We on the left are divided between establishment and populism. The Right all acquiesce in the reality of Donald Trump with little daylight to be found in opposition.
How does one explain then , The conservative child /adult / person who comes up through the overly - to put it lightly -liberal education system , at least on one side of liberal parenting and THEN becomes or morphs towards conservativism ?
I say one perhaps more likely to independent thought .
My point here in a less popular line of thought is this , of both ideologies I see liberals as being far more systematically "educated " ,directed , trained and indoctrinated from youth .
Following your narrative here, ahorseback, here is another quandary for you.
The links I provided are from Forbes magazine, a business publication that can hardly be accused of liberal bias.
This is interesting, the among the most educated states
#1 Massachusetts
Maryland
Colorado
Connecticut
Vermont
New Hampshire
Virginia
Minnesota
Washington
#10 New jersey
The most educated, I would be hard pressed to find any of these with the noted exception of Virginia or Colorado that even considered voting GOP. I mean, it has to be more than just a coincidence, yes? I grew up in Colorado and watched progressivism take the stage moving the state in a clearly different path from its more conservative neighbors of Kansas and Wyoming. Northern Virginia, in the shadow of the Washington, DC, will put on pressure to squeeze the remaining conservatism out of this state in time.
https://www.forbes.com/pictures/eglg45i … 688b61ed1e
Click the link below and be introduced to the least educated among the 50 states.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/karstenstr … 94f12071be
Oklahoma
Texas
Tennessee
Alabama
Nevada
Kentucky
Arkansas
Louisiana
Mississippi
West Virginia
Are you seeing a pattern? These states as the best of the worse (Oklahoma) and the worse, West Virginia are all, with the noted exception of Nevada, rock hard GOP strongholds. We will get Nevada to flip Blue once more of the exodus from Southern California into relatively inexpensive Clark County, Nevada takes its course. Again, is it a coincidence? I doubt it. So if conservatives are so smart why this consistent and continuous pattern?
Intelligent people and the GOP brand of conservativism clearly does not mix. You can talk about education indoctrination and such, but the stats do not lie. It is easy to see just who is who....
Isn't that the point? That the more educated (in universities, not the school of hard knocks) are indoctrinated in liberal philosophy?
Of course, we should also be recognizing that it is, for the most part, the urban states that are highly educated AND it is the urban areas that voted D. Estimating from the county map of voting results, there can't be more than a dozen or so rural counties that went D. And, of course, it is the urban areas that attract the more educated; the pay is better and high pay is necessary to pay off the huge debt load kids are accumulating now days.
So, using that line of though we discover that it is coincidence that the educated vote D. Were they rural they would vote R.
Isn't that the point? That the more educated (in universities, not the school of hard knocks) are indoctrinated in liberal philosophy?
First of all, Wilderness, I don't buy all this liberal education indoctrination stuff. If the Right complains it is because people cannot be easily indoctrinated in a higher education setting. Adults Free to think for themselves and reason independently? That has got to terrify conservatives and rightwingers.
Also, who says that the 'school of hard knocks" and a classic university education have to be mutually exclusive? There are also many that have been to the school of hard knocks and obtained a classic university education, I give more credibility to these than those that just claim education from the "school of hard knocks".
-----------------------------------------------
Of course, we should also be recognizing that it is, for the most part, the urban states that are highly educated AND it is the urban areas that voted D. Estimating from the county map of voting results, there can't be more than a dozen or so rural counties that went D. And, of course, it is the urban areas that attract the more educated; the pay is better and high pay is necessary to pay off the huge debt load kids are accumulating now days.
So, using that line of though we discover that it is coincidence that the educated vote D. Were they rural they would vote R.
--
Yes, I follow you here, but what about Texas and Vermont, two exceptions Vermont; not having any major large cities, can it be considered rural and a solidly Democratic stronghold ? Then, there is Texas as the 3rd most populous state in the Union and solid GOP, would you call it an urban state? I don't know that the distinctions you are making here are on the money. Arizona is another Texas type example that comes to mind.
I do apologize about making the false statement about Libs being more intelligent than conservatives. Sorry, it just slipped....
But there is a correlation however slight between educational attainment and intelligence when measured among adult populations. I don't know about you, but I prefer educated to not educated, doesn't everybody? Is there a reason that conservatives have been attacked as opposed to science and scientific inquiry and exchanging it for their trashy ideologies? Is ignorance something to boast about? In GOP circles, it looks like it is.
But your point of the difference actually being between urban and rural is not dismissed out of hand. You said that urban dwellers tend to be better educated. Do you really think that if all the highly educated lived in the rural areas that they would actually vote Republican? For the current residents of Petticoat Junction, I am not surprised but for truly classically educated people? I wonder, it is an interesting question.
Yes, Texas is primarily rural. Only about a quarter of the people live in large cities, and that isn't enough to counter the massive number of rural dwellers. Same for Arizona.
Vt - Vt is an anomaly. Perhaps too much maple syrup?
Educated to not educated? Well, when I go to a mechanic to fix my car I certainly hope he isn't depending on his degree in philosophy, music or English for guidance. A good background in blue collar training and work is what I want. But can ignorance be something to brag about? I don't know - are you proud that you haven't the faintest how to check crankshaft roundness, the freon pressure in your air conditioner or how to plumb for a new sink? Or does the ignorance of day to day life not count - only the ignorance from not knowing a dangling participle from a okapi?
And yes, I would expect the highly educated to vote with the others in their cultural life - even if that life is rural. It's not a matter of how much we know about esoteric topics we leave at the job when we go home, it's a matter of basic human philosophy. Either we depend on a nanny state (liberal) or we depend on ourselves and our friends in time of need (conservative). There are others, of course - religion, tolerance of other life styles, personal rights come to mind - but, to me, the root is responsibility. Are you responsible for yourself or is the government.
Credence , That's truly going over the top suggesting conservatives are less intelligent , even for you . If you were to truly listen in conversations to what you wrote you would be easily offended . Shame on you for even suggesting .
Why am I not surprised though ?
I hadn't caught that - that Cred somehow went from being formally educated straight into being more intelligent. Pretty obnoxious fallacy, even for a liberal.
It is over the top, and I apologize. Like I told Wilderness, it just slipped....
Yep Credence2, I do think the Right has a similar issue. That's why my comment included; "... (even if he didn't mention the Right has the same problem)..." But that doesn't mean I don't think ahorseback had a valid point.
GA
In terms of psychological attributes, liberals are more cosmopolitan in scope. They realize that there is more than one methodology in analyzing beliefs & so-called facts. They are more discerning. They also refuse to accept old, outmoded traditions. They are also nonconformist, even unconventional. Conservatives accept the status quo, believe in tradition although such traditions are passe and no longer workable. I am speaking of psychosocial liberalism. Liberals also try and test new theorems. They are not afraid of rocking that boat.
Conservatives believe in the tried and true. They lead a very conscripted life. They are fearful of the new and different. Some conservative may even contend that anything outside their purview is verboten, even evil. They want to be safe and go down that narrow, tested path. They are afraid of the modern, more so of postmodernity. Something about the modern unhinge the conservative mind. They love the past because it is tried and true, even "more safe" than the present.
Noted: one set of values is conducive to a progressing and improved society, the other is not so much.
If the Left were anywhere near as cohesive and defensive as the Right, the GOP would not win politically anywhere.
As a student of the past, I can say that before the 1960's, the past 'sucked'. Who really wants to go there?
They are educated by each other with these lessons on how to live: No consequences, no taking responsibility for themselves, no thinking ahead and planning for their future/success. No reality, no God. Yes, freedom to abuse freedom of action and freedom of speech. Yes, freedom to express themselves without common courtesy regard of the effects of their behavior on others.
So, after all this education are they oh, so smart?
NO.
I have looked at some research studies that say the Next Generation (Generation Z) that just voted for there first time in 2016 are largely conservative. They are also being called “more pragmatic”. I read a study based on all the chaos these young people have grown up with has had a profound effect on their lives. Aw, the age of smart phones and computers and a desire to know the facts.
Really something to think about the future leaders.
Trade schools and apprenticeships are on the rise. I like the idea of earning a good income while learning skills for higher paying careers. That is the route to go. The young people are being given an alternative choice, rather than going into deed at indoctrination collages.
Just a theory and I don’t really have anything to back it up, but I wonder if on average liberals are more drawn to formal education and conservatives are more drawn to trades and labour.
Conservatives tend to pride themselves on putting in hard work and everyone supporting themselves so I wonder if that translates into foregoing thousands of dollars in student debt and sitting in a classroom for 4 years.
On the flip-side, a lot of the popular degrees are in the social sciences and humanities which are areas that liberals tend to focus on and care about.
If you look at the literal definition of “conservative” you get: holding to traditional attitudes and values and cautious about change or innovation, typically in relation to politics or religion. Pretty much any subjects outside of math and history are about change and innovation.
Likewise if you look at the definition of “liberal”: open to new behavior or opinions and willing to discard traditional values. Which is conducive to attending college/university and expanding knowledge about multiple subjects.
Anyway, like I said, just a simple thought that I’m sure is terribly boring for you because it doesn’t really fit with your combative narrative but there ya go.
This is correct. Furthermore, the more educated a person is, usually the more liberal he or she is. Conversely, the less educated a person is, the MORE conservative he or she is. Conservatives, on average, are less educated than liberals.
Yes , yes , yes ,...... Let's all look at primarily liberally applied education system "studies" , ie. Harvard , Georgetown ,UCLA , and then determine that yes "liberals are more intelligent " . They sure are .Conservatives after all , are rednecks , drive jacked up -pick- ups ,hunt , fish and kill neighborly dogs , own lots of primitive weaponry , vote with their handgun supporting leaders every time ,they live in trailer parks and feed their kids starchy foods .
Who is really the most intellectual ? Those who most instantly categorize all others upon sight perhaps ?
Liberal intellectuals ? Aime , G.M.........Thanks for this , it's very informative. I feel more intelligent already .
I said nothing about intelligence. I was talking about education. There’s a difference. I don’t think a degree automatically makes a person smarter than someone who doesn’t have one. There are different kinds of intelligence that are measured in different ways and it’s not as simple as having a degree or not.
I was simply trying to explain why I think liberals may be more educated. Not more intelligent. As I said, I’m not interested in being combative.
education and intelligence usually go hand in hand …. But maybe not anymore.
Vermont became a bedroom community for 60's NY, NJ , Conn, Mass. in 1970 ..... ex hippy's who took over the legislature and became a totally liberal enclave . Legislature now over 80 % liberal voting , in other words a California wanna-be state ,
Fact , somebody isn't doing their homework , Credence.
Yea ,.... they claim to be all educated too , Too bad Vermont is a fiscal nightmare for one problem , a welfare state for two and a health care fiasco .
I just left that state for good , see us rednecks aren't so uninformed.
How can someplace like Vermont be compared with California? I can't debate you as you lived there and probably have better sense of what is going on. Good progressives of Vermont will say, 'don't let the door hit you in the rump on the way out'.
Where did you go, did you find your calling in West Virginia? Tell everybody in Hooterville there, hello.
You've found your element.
Actually no , I moved to California to change hearts and minds ! We may save that state from itself yet , next on the list ........your state .
There you go again Credence ,assuming conservatives are all rednecks ....nice !
Oh, they have HUGE plans for us! We need ALL the HELP we can get! Thanks ahorseback!
http://www.scag.ca.gov/Pages/default.aspx
Well, one day the western coast will be in the ocean, whereupon the radical left of the state will disappear. Without the two massive metropolitan areas the state will go red instead of blue.
Actually I would neither move to California nor try to change it , California's liberal ideologies and those people who believe them operate outside of America's definition of two party differences .
Ahorseback, you yourself used the term 'redneck'. Don't go to California all you are going to do is to come down with the case of Blue Flu. California is an impregnable bastion of the left. There are pockets where rightwingers are allowed to live, but they are cloistered and kept away from the civilized populace.
The State of Florida is purple in the fact the politically laggard parts of the state lie mostly on the panhandle. With the influx of New Yorkers and 'snowbirds' from New England, there is much more 'left' here than what is found among her southern neighbors.
Credence , I may have used the term in describing myself only , in fact I know I have but you have insinuated over and over again the correlation in conservative to redneck . You can't erase your history here .Apologies or not.
I apologized for using the term 'less intelligent' when comparing progressives with conservatives. Yes, based on certain voting pattern and the consistency of where they are found, you proved your own point, "Conservatives are less educated" Less educated means less urbane, less sophisticated, less successful, (it is not hard to show that the GOP red states are found among the union's least successful economically.
So, who am I going to go with, it will be Massachusetts and Maryland over West Virginia and Mississippi. Not to hard of a choice for me to make, but for the rightwinger/conservative types, not so much. I will not say 'redneck' but lets just say 'less successful'.
Everything that makes society go, the engineers, scientists and professionals are the people I like to be associated with, not the people that clean up at Walmart. Dale Carnegie mentioned that successful people surround themselves with those that are a model of that success already attained. And don't say I am elitist, It is my objective to shoot for the stars and not just the stone in the next yard.
Credence , You don't ever have to call yourself an elitist , your written posts speak volumes all by themselves on that ! When something is implied in every post; then there it is .
Credence , " I'm sorry BUT" doesn't very well mean , I'm sorry .
LOL California is no different that any other state: the liberals are concentrated in the pockets of concrete jungles, the ant hills in the savannas of modern life. Outside those enclaves of insanity and madness the free world continues to operate quite well.
Some are called.
They "Count it all joy."
But, I do get your point.
I won't want the task.
Saw this video today. Unbelievable. Students are now insisting that education, itself, is racist.This is the direction our 'liberals' are going. I would say the definition of 'educated' is going to diminish considerably if these types get their way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZKRz1QXtC4
Couldn't have stated that better Wilderness , The cities , always the overly populated liberal strongholds , always . A side note or interesting observation , I have always people watched and have found it amusing to watch city dwellers vacationing in the country - They never seem to really know what to do after they arrive !
Well Said, Wilderness, Well Said! As sad as it might be, we are becoming products of our environment, it seems.
As more people migrate into their expensive world of cubicles (called apartments), walk their dog in their small parks, eat in their small diners and are fed the same liberal pablum in their conversations and news outlets, then I guess it makes sense that they no longer realize that other part of America where there are trees, forests, mountains, home-grown foods, and the freedom to use and enjoy each.
The problem seems to be that the further the cities turn homes into human beehives, and tell the people this is good for them, the communications between Urban and Rural peoples will become more strained.
DON
Thus evolving we are soon to become the "Jetson's ", flying cars , cubicle jobs , socialized government will run everything , .......I watched a documentary the other night about a man in Nova -Scotia who lived as a hermit in a one room cabin all through his life while people worked to "normalize " his life , his home , his health and lifestyle .........He ended up dying alone in the woods .
Must have been a happy man .
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