Rapture

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   Roseberryposted 15 years ago

   Will we as Christians have to go though the tribulation or will the church be rapture first?
   
   I have posted my answer on a hub but wanted your input!

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      BDazzlerposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Some of my best friends and Christians I respect deeply are very much pre-trib. In my opinion, the way they have to put too many scriptures from too many contexts together to make that work, scripturally. 
      
      I based my "post tribulation rapture" belief on the following scripture:
      
      
      
      To me, that looks pretty post-trib ... and people I've loved and respected very much have tried to convince me otherwise ... but I just don't see it.
      
      
      I also enjoyed the first few books of the Left Behind series ... but they started to drag after a while.

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         aka-djposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         This verse speaks of the "elect" that come "out of the tribulation". They did not go "into" the tribulation as believers.
         I have studied the various views, and pre-trib makes the most sense, based on a broad understanding of the scriptures. Jesus used the days of Lot, and the days of Noah as exaples, both families were delivered out of the "judgment", just to mention one.

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            BDazzlerposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            Yeah, see dj, that's what I mean ...  people have to start parsing and pasting ...what does 'elect' mean, what does Noah mean etc.   ... my general rule of scripture inerpretation is "go simple first" and "don't complicate it too much" ... I've studied a lot of other people's opinions of those scritpures, and I started out "pre-trib" and began my in-deapth study with the intention of proving myself right. 
            
            All of the "pre-trib"  books I studied actually convinced me otherwise.
            
            I just haven't been able to justify, whether from Perry Stone, Tim LeHey etc. etc. etc.  books or my own study dumping what I consider to be the obvious interpretation.

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            quietnessandtrustposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            No body in those examples left the planet. No need to leave earth to be delivered from evil, unless your "god" is to weak.
            
            Jesus prayed to HIS FATHER "I pray that YOU not take them out of the world, but that YOU deliver them from the evil that is in the world"
            
            No point in arguing with Jesus,
            
            Shalom

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      ellie1142545posted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Not all of us believe in the Rapture...I do....So my answer is, No we won't go through the tribulation....God Bless!

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   WHoArtNowposted 15 years ago

   If you truly believe, and you've accepted that Jesus Christ died for your sins and that you are a sinner, "if" the rapture comes, the believers will be taken from this world before the Rapture.
   
   It's us mere Atheists that have to suffer for 7 years to the Glorious Appearing...

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      aka-djposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      "rapture" BEFORE Rapture"? I haven't heard that before.
      Sounds like you are waiting, with great anticipation, to go throuh that period.

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         WHoArtNowposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         Me? I'm an atheist, I'm just reading a very interesting set of books called "Left Behind" I'm not religious, but I do like a good story. And yeah, what I meant was if you do the above, then you will be taken AT the rapture. I can't even remember posting, so must have been late!

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   aka-djposted 15 years ago

   I have not read much of their stuff (to be honest). I have however listend to (and raed) a lot of Chuck Missler. His arguments for pre-trib are very convincing, but he doesn't "dogmatically" insist that he is right.
   I doubt that I'll be around, but time will tell. Used to believe that we would never make it to the yr. 2000. Though I hwve never been an advocate for date setting. It was more of a personal expectation. Since then I am a bit more "flexible".

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      BDazzlerposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      I'm very good with that ... I have a "scripture interpretation" hub on the back burner which will address why it's not only "OK" but perhaps even "GOOD" for Christians to have different eschatological views.

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         sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         yes, to be different but the same in Spirit is a good thing!    It shows remarkable love, understanding and acceptance towards one another.  Is there really a pre-tribe post trib. rapture???
         
         Who really knows but I do feel that it is safe to say that whatever one gives you the greatest comfort is the one you will believe.  So believe it, though I would suggest not thinking of it at all only because well... say you were wrong.
         
         I could only imagine the turmoil it would present to the faithful to have been left behind, would a faithful believer who has been left behind give up then?  I dunno.  I could consider that some would. 
         
         You got to figure that you base your whole life on the belief that you wont, so to be left behind anyways regardless it might hurt a hell of a lot more to have to search even deeper into your heart and be more honest and truthful.  Not just to yourself but with God as well. 
         
         Some issue concerning Christianity are so futile.  I might deny anyone who comes and say, I am Jesus based on Scripture because of what it says will happen when Jesus does come back but I wouldn't stand in conviction as to whether or not I was good enough to be pre trib or post trib... seems that sort of thinking is only giving to some false hopes or giving to oneself more credit than they deserve.
         
         Though it is not to say that you shouldn't have faith that you have escaped the horrors of tribulation... I am just saying that if you are so honestly certain about which your destiny lies with is like saying you already have it all figured out. 
         
         I think to myself often, God I hope you don't put me through such a thing but if I have to then it will be the greatest test of faith a person could come to with God.  So then, those who are not caught up in the rapture could be those who possess the greatest faith of all.  So then the first will be last and the last will be first. 
         
         But don't get me wrong, I couldn't say really what I would or wouldn't do. 
         
         So let's see what happens. 

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   Make Moneyposted 15 years ago

   Here's a good cometary on the Rapture

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   pylos26posted 15 years ago

   Are rappers going through rapture while rapping?  tee hee

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      BDazzlerposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      

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   Jeramiposted 14 years ago

   The Rapture as it has come to be called, As described in the bible describes 144,000 saints that were given the seal of God on their foreheads.They were protect from death and from more than they could bear.  They went through the tribulation. that is what the mark was for. As soon as they had recieved the mark, the four angeles turned loose the winds of the "tribulation" These four angels that are seen holding back the wind(Rev.7) are most likely the same as the four horsemen of the apocolipse. I believe that this event is past history. If it were to be speaking of future events the answer would be YES the church would go through the tribulation.

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      fishmoxposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      wrong.  that's not the rapture.
      those are the Jehovah's Witnesses, or so they think.

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         ellie1142545posted 14 years agoin reply to this

         The 144,000 are those who come to believe, and slain for their belief, during the tribulation...When the time comes for Jesus to come to end the battle of Armageddon, those 144,000 saints will be with him, to fight the final battle....

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            fishmoxposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            kinda cultic way of believing, but that's just me.
            I don't speak for everybody.

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            Make Moneyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Yeah the 144,000 saints will be with Jesus when He returns.  But the 144,000 saints or at least some of them were in heaven long before the coming tribulations, according to Matthew 27.
            
            Matthew 27:50-53 50 "And Jesus again crying with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51 And behold the veil of the temple was rent in two from the top even to the bottom, and the earth quaked, and the rocks were rent. 52 And the graves were opened: and many bodies of the saints that had slept arose, 53 And coming out of the tombs after his resurrection, came into the holy city, and appeared to many."
            
            I doubt that it was the full 144,000 saints that arose when Jesus opened the gates of heaven with His death and resurrection because I doubt that the population of Jerusalem was even close to 144,000 at that time.  If there were more saints that arose out of their graves at that time than the population of Jerusalem then it would be more widely historically known and all the Jews would have become Christians.  I believe a good portion of the 144,000 saints are Christian martyrs through out the ages.

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   Inspirepubposted 14 years ago

   Well, for those who believe the Rapture is yet to come, and would like to have the final word (whether it be "I told you so" or "gee, I miss you up here in Heaven"), here's a service you need to subscribe to, before it's too late ...
   
   Post Rapture Post
   
   The ultimate Last Word.
   
   Jenny

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      aka-djposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Nice.
      Anyone here posted a message there?
      Just curious.

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   Born Again 05posted 14 years ago

   I do personally believe in the pre-trib rapture. If by some chance I am wrong, I might be disappointed but it wouldn't change my faith. God is in control. It's His will be done, His Kingdom to come, not mine.

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   Make Moneyposted 14 years ago

   The man of sin has to sit in the temple as if he were God before the second coming of Jesus Christ and judgment day (2 Thess. 2:1-4).  That will start the 42 months of tribulations.
   
   The woman in Rev 12 is referring to Mary but also to Christ's church.  This is what Rev 12:6 says will happen during those 42 months (a thousand two hundred sixty days divided by 30 = 42 months),
   
   Rev 12:6 "And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she had a place prepared by God, that there they should feed her a thousand two hundred sixty days."
   
   I'm not sure about a rapture but we want to have our names written in the book of life.
   
   Rev 3:5 "He that shall overcome, shall thus be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."
   
   Also it looks like no one that is left on earth will be taken up until after the tribulation when Jesus Christ returns.
   
   1 Thessalonians 4:12-17 12 "And we will not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning them that are asleep, that you be not sorrowful, even as others who have no hope. 13 For if we believe that Jesus died, and rose again; even so them who have slept through Jesus, will God bring with him. 14 For this we say unto you in the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who remain unto the coming of the Lord, shall not prevent them who have slept. 15 For the Lord himself shall come down from heaven with commandment, and with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God: and the dead who are in Christ, shall rise first. 16 Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be taken up together with them in the clouds to meet Christ, into the air, and so shall we be always with the Lord. 17 Wherefore, comfort ye one another with these words."
   
   1 Thessalonians 4 is also talking about purgatory, "them that are asleep".  As is Ezechiel 37 when talking about the valley of the dry bones that will be resurrected.  These both are those that overcome the second death (Rev 2:11 & Rev 21:8).

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    benakoaposted 14 years ago

    3000 years from now soeone will still be having this conversation like some folks did 2000 years ago. And some poor folks will still think something will happen. You got to respect a people who beleive in Santa.

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    quietnessandtrustposted 14 years ago

    To be kept from evil and to be delivered from it while standing right here on the earth, that is salvation.
    
    A Jewish Messiah does not think like an American consumer.
    
    Shalom

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    quietnessandtrustposted 14 years ago

    Here is the point above all other points and one that no person who is a Rapturite that I have seen can refute.
    
    Now this is Messiah praying here, so it might just carry a wee bit of weight OK?
    
    "I'm not asking you to take them out of the world,
    but to keep them safe from the evil one...They are not part of this world any more than I am...Make them pure and holy by teaching them your words of truth...I am praying not only for these disciples but also for all who will ever believe in me because of their testimony."
    
    Well there it is, in HIS very own words, and HE does not contradict HIMSELF once HE says something, right?
    
    Read it again and tell us where HE asks for us to be taken out of the world.
    
    Shalom

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    quietnessandtrustposted 14 years ago

    In the days of Noah the people that were taken, were taken in the destruction, the people that were left, were left to live, they got into the ark (Messiah) and lived, they obeyed GOD and were left HERE on the earth to live, the ones taken were taken and destroyed. THIS IS THE DIFFERENCE. People who believe in a pre tribulation rapture have this backwards is all, once you tell them this, hopefully they will see. If you are taken in a flood, everyone knows what that means, if you are left in a flood, they know what that is too. LEFT ALIVE. “The water took John and Billy away and they drowned.”
    
    No place does it say that HE is coming again and then again after that. Being ready just means to be about THE LORD'S business. Then no matter when HE returns, we will be told "well done, I see you are busy doing MY business and not your own."
    
    We must understand how a Hebrew Messiah thinks and taught, as well as HIS follower did, Westerners think like one, not like a Hebrew, so they “interpret” the scripture in a Western mind set. This just has to be taught to them. They do not understand Hebrew poetry either, I mean, how could they???
    
    Hebrew always told things like several times but with different pictures, but it was still the same story line. I can do the same thing today, tell a story about an event 3 different ways.
    
    Psalm 91 is all about massive tribulation on earth and HIS people not being removed, instead they are kept under the shelter of THE ALL-MIGHTY...so come what may, they are by definition SAFE.
    
    Judah's Daughter said on another hub:"One thing we know is that God compares the Day of the Lord to that of Noah and Lot. The righteous were spared, and He tells us to be watchful so we're ready to do what He tells us to do, as were Noah and Lot...and thus the parable of the 10 virgins. Amen"
    
    Exactly right...and none of them left the earth to be spared, they just were ready because they followed orders...we are soldiers, few follow orders.
    
    Shalom

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    quietnessandtrustposted 14 years ago

    To many today running around trying to "FIGURE OUT" when He is coming, THE LORD warns against this practice. No man knows the day or the hour, that means NO MAN, nobody can figure it out!!! SO QUIT IT ALREADY.
    
    He does not want us bothering even to try, like silly minded, hand wringing little children trying to "figure out" when daddy is coming home after daddy told them does not know when.
    
    If as much time was spent "doing HIS business" as there is "hand wringing"...the church would no be such a mess!!!
    
    Just give it a rest, carry on with HIS business and watch and be on guard, at the ready position always!!!
    
    To say that one "knows it will be before the tribulation" is to say that you know when He shall return...and YOU do not, none of us do.
    
    If you are ready and doing HIS business and NOT your own then>>>>>WHO CARES WHEN HE IS COMING?????
    
    Messiah said "Nobody knows when I am coming and that is that, now get to work!!!" When people KNOW, when the boss is returning, they screw around until 5 minutes before he arrives. That is why Jesus is going to return on a day we know not.
    
    Shalom

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       Ron Montgomeryposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Congratulations on discovering the bold trick.  It does however lose some of it's effectiveness when you bold each and every word.  You may want to try selecting the text that most needs emphasizing and bolding only it.

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          quietnessandtrustposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          When I have an entire statement to make in a bold manner, I just do it. If I have one word to make a bold remark with, I just so it as well.

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    aka-djposted 14 years ago

    quietnessandtrust, without reprinting all you wrote, I have this to say. Though Jesus taught the CoI, yet His teachings are universal. To say that (we) westerners can't understand it is narrow minded.
    Secondly, the church is also universal, and is a peoduct of revelation, not education.
    Thirdly, the pre-trib view does not in any way "predict" His second coming. He Himself said "when you see these things...it is near."
    Fourthly, Enoch was "raptured", and stands as an example for the end time. I am not trying to be divisive, but these points counter your stance on the subject.On all your other points I am in full agreement.

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       quietnessandtrustposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       A Western mind does not think like a Hebrew, it cannot until it is taught how a Jewish Messiah lived and taught, they cannot understand Hebrew idioms or it's poetry, nor would I expect them to.
       
       The rapturites do teach in fact that they know HIS so called rapture of them will be "before" the tribulation, therefore prediction when it will happen, they think they know "the day and the hour" will be before.
       
       I already spoke of Enoch and how close HE walked with GOD, the Church does not do this, not even in the same ball park sir.
       
       Shalom

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          goodfriendiamposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          I truly don't understand why there would be a rapture. Like I said before, I don't believe, everything the bible says. For it is not living, how can it? For God does not dwell in man made objects, for he dwells in us, all of us, in the whole world. But it is only when you choice to walk with him now, present time, that you will see him. I do not believe what others say for even Jesus said there will be those who say I am here, no he is over there (again my wording, not some old scripture writing that is dead and buried and is now know more) I also don't believe he is coming again, this is a contradiction, he will come to each individually in there mind when they are ready. peace

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    goodfriendiamposted 14 years ago

    I don't believe in the rapture, for I believe he has already came once and died, and then the second time he came and is amongst us now, for in acts it says something to the fact that in those days i will pour out my spirit upon all flesh. So he died, he rose first coming, then he went up to the father, and then his spirit was poured fourth upon all of us, second coming, rapture right here. this is what I believe. Father, son, holy ghost all one.

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       aka-djposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Acts 1:11 ? Physically ascended, therefore (in like manner) shall come again.
       Also 1Thes 4:17. Clearly talks about a"physical" union in the air? I don't know how you would overcome these two (alone), with the "no-rapture" view?

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          goodfriendiamposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Well for me I don't believe everything that is written in the bible. For it is stated somewhere in the bible that we are to divide the truth rightly. Meaning the truth from the false. I don't believe, in all the stuff about God being angry and destroying, and sending people to hell. For he can't be Fear and Love both. For that would be a contradiction. my thoughts

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             quietnessandtrustposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             To physically meet HIM in the air is what it obviously says...but the rapturites think it will be before the tribulation.
             
             Jesus prayed against this concept.
             
             We will be transformed in a moment and that moment will be when HE raises all the dead in Messiah upon HIS coming to rule and reign, HE is NOT coming on a secret "yo-yo" to take us to heaven.
             
             And Enoch walked so close with GOD that he was found to be with GOD before he died. The Church does not walk in the same manner with HIM.
             
             Jesus prayed against us and believers as a whole being removed from the world...,this cannot be avoided. It is GODS business what He did with Enoch, but Jesus makes it clear that we are going nowhere until HE returns, and even then we will at the same time return with HIM to rule and reign.

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          quietnessandtrustposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          To physically meet HIM in the air is what it obviously says...but the rapturites think it will be before the tribulation.
          
          Jesus prayed against this concept.
          
          We will be transformed in a moment and that moment will be when HE raises all the dead in Messiah upon HIS coming to rule and reign, HE is NOT coming on a secret "yo-yo" to take us to heaven.
          
          And Enoch walked so close with GOD that he was found to be with GOD before he died. The Church does not walk in the same manner with HIM.
          
          Jesus prayed against us and believers as a whole being removed from the world...,this cannot be avoided. It is GODS business what He did with Enoch, but Jesus makes it clear that we are going nowhere until HE returns, and even then we will at the same time return with HIM to rule and reign.

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    Make Moneyposted 14 years ago

    Aka-dj I think Acts 1:11 just means that Jesus will return the same way that he left.  Acts 1:9 says "a cloud received him".  Acts 1:10 mentions "two men stood by them in white apparel" (angels).  Acts 1:11 says "Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."  Then Luke 21:27 says this about when he returns "And then they shall see the Son of man coming in a cloud, with great power and majesty."
    
    Yeah 1 Thes 4 talks about being "taken up together with them in the clouds to meet Christ, into the air".  But 2 verses back it says "we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord".  The tribulations will happen before the coming of the Lord so it can't be a pre-trib rapture.  But if you want to call it a rapture it will happen at "the coming of the Lord" so it can't really be called a post-trib rapture either.

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       quietnessandtrustposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       The 2nd coming is the resurrection of the dead in Messiah and those of us who are alive and remain at the time...NO SECRET RAPTURE WILL HAPPEN.
       
       "Father I pray that you not take them out of this world"
       
       Funny how nobody addresses this, hummmm?????

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    RooBeeposted 14 years ago

    "The Rapture" is a good excuse not to try and correct some of the horrors that man has visited upon this planet. Heck, why bother if you're going to be "taken up' anyway?

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       quietnessandtrustposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Well, that is the mentality of some, sadly.

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    quietnessandtrustposted 14 years ago

    The non-spiritual self, just as it is by nature, can't receive the gifts of God's Spirit. There's no capacity for them. They seem like so much silliness. Spirit can be known only by spirit—God's Spirit and our spirits in open communion. Spiritually alive, we have access to everything God's Spirit is doing, and can't be judged by non-spiritual critics. Isaiah's question, "Is there anyone around who knows God's Spirit, anyone who knows what he is doing?" has been answered: Christ knows, and we have Christ's Mind and Spirit.

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    quietnessandtrustposted 14 years ago

    Good-night

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