The Obamacare mess!

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   James Agbogunposted 14 years ago

   finally those who have wished for an opportunity to get their fist on the jaws of obama are getting the chance. Am not surprise that the opponents to the health care plan are passionately and aggressively staging a resistance to the policy of a man they could not stop with their votes. You could see the anger and pains in their eyes as they try to interupt every town hall event. Without any respect to opposing views, they shout to high heavens for the angels to hear. It stinks to hear that instead of a concern for the cost and where the money would come from, the problem is the rumour spreading around by the "false-news" medium and other stagnant systems. Yet, i respect those who have legitimate opposing views and are presenting them in a civilised manner. Perhaps, at the end of the day, they could be victorious.

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      ledefensetechposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      It would be nice not to have to worry about the cost of something, but that is what adults do.

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   Uninvited Writerposted 14 years ago

   I certainly hope they will not be victorious is this regard. I still believe that it is not the majority who are doing this but fringe elements. They don't realize that they are doing exactly what the insurance companies want them to do so they can continue to make obscene profits off the backs of sick people. My last comment because the same old arguments are going to come up again and the same false news. Don't let those 3 or 4 people get you down...

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      James Agbogunposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      It is nice to see the first comment pointing to a rather positive direction. Perhaps the response could define the public view.

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      nicompposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Nasty insurance companies, providing insurance for people!
      
      They should give it away. Shame on them for expecting to be paid.
      
      Anyway, their obscene profits are made off the backs of the well people. Well people pay premiums and don't need care. Sick people cut into the obscene profits. Nasty sick people!
      
      Hussein Obama will print more money. All these problems will vanish. There will be so much health care we'll trip on it when we walk to the mailbox to pick up our welfare check.
      
      Doctors will work for minimum wage and nurses for free band aids. Medical equipment will be repaired by high school graduates and designed by Chinese engineers.
      
      Hospitals will become places of wonder and happiness, freely treating all who venture through their doors with candy canes and fluffy teddy bears. Heart transplants will be outpatient procedures. Knee replacement coupons will arrive on the backs of Cheerios boxes.

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         Leta Sposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Cutesy lil post, Nicomp.  Really.
         
         But shouldn't you maybe try to be responsible regarding this and other issues, when violence hinges in the air?
         
         I am assuming that intelligent conservatives CAN be responsible...?  Anyway, just checking.  If NOT, well, just take THIS post as a cutesy little answering post in response to yours.    No reply needed...

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            nicompposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Hey, thanks! We conservatives need to constantly reframe the discussion when the Progressives/Liberals/Democrats attempt to distract. The main point is unconstitutional socialized medicine, not a few vocal folks on either side.

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               Leta Sposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               OK, then I'm going to assume you don't understand the issues, , and move on.

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                  nicompposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  I'll assume you aren't able to make your points well enough to change anyone's mind. More than enough reason for you to move on.

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                     Leta Sposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     You offer nothing of substance.  See above information if you want 'points.'  Yeah, I do get tired of the silly sound bytes.  Seems to me you are just making a lot of noise for fun or something.  That's all very well and good, but I recognize it for what it is.  So do a few others here.
                     
                     It's cool.  Your post was funny in its way.  I like wit, , even hollow-ish conservative wit, sometimes.... 

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      tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Ah yes, that "fringe" 49%
      
      
      
      http://www.gallup.com/video/122231/Obama-Issues.aspx

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         Uninvited Writerposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         I was referring to the ones who are causing the trouble and threatening violence...
         
         Oops, I wasn't going to comment

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            iamqweenbeeposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            I wasn't going to comment, either HOWEVER...whether we agree with Obama or not, violence is not the answer. We should learn to disagree without being violently disagreeable

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               Leta Sposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               Thank you!

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            nicompposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Oh, the SEIU enforcers.

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         AEvansposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         

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   pgrundyposted 14 years ago

   Surely you are not accusing these miscreants at the town hall meetings of being adults?
   
   That seems beneath you, seriously.

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      ledefensetechposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Now who's throwing in the kitchen sink in order to try to make a point?  At no time did I ever mention the town halls in this post.  Are you telling me that you don't consider cost when deciding something?

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   Uninvited Writerposted 14 years ago

   Yup...all present and accounted for

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   Leta Sposted 14 years ago

   Iowa is always at the top of the curve on so many things, including peaceful active debate:
   
   http://voices.washingtonpost.com/capito … id=topnews
   
   Sheds some light on the whole mess:
   
   http://voices.washingtonpost.com/capito … id=topnews
   
   Many people who DO READ have figured it out. The protesters are older people (most on Medicare, ironically, who have the time to attend day time town hall meetings and who have been scared witless by certain money interests--against THEIR own best interests).  From the New York Times Message Boards:
   
   1.
   
   I am puzzled about why so many Americans are concerned about health care reform. Medicare, a government program, actually works for those who need it. And, I would think most older citizens would want the assurance that should they lose their current health care plan, they could be assured of getting new coverage. So many private plans now rescind coverage for those who have had minor problems in the past — as banal as acne or hay fever. Moreover, many private plans are simply cancelled once people have really serious problems such as cancer, heart disease or diabetes. It is reasonable, even imperative, to question our government. But to accuse the government of having “death panels” that will triage patients according to their ages — and euthanize the oldest — is simply beyond belief. Let us hope that wiser hearts and clearer minds will prevail, and that we will finally get decent, universal health care.
   — jrwSacto
   
   
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   Curious that the folks who do not want “the government to stand between us and our health care” are the seniors whose health care is financed by the government through Medicare.
   
   Are these seniors profoundly disinformed about who actually pays for and regulates their health care?
   
   Also curious is the fact that seniors express such fervent concerns over the costs of health care.
   
   Are they unaware that a great part of health care spending in this country goes to finance Medicare and that any cost control will need to take on this issue?
   
   Or is the “greatest generation” just standing up and saying “I’ve got mine, why should I care about you?”
   
   And they say that we boomers are selfish!
   — Wonks Anonymous
   
   
   3.
   
   Actually, the reason is because that age group is more likely to watch and trust Fox News, Limbaugh, Hannity, Palin and the like. They’ve been voting against their own self interest by voting Republican for decades. Now these media scalawags are scaring the hell out of them with more lies and, true to form, they are swallowing the bait hook, line and sinker.
   
   It’s sad (for all of us, frankly)… They literally will not listen to reason.

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      nicompposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Wrong. Medicare is bankrupting the federal and state governments. The fed foists huge medicare expenses on the individual states and borrows money to pay its' share. . Medicare Part A has $38 trillion in unfunded liabilities.
      
      
      
      Wrong again. Voting Republican, historically, has been a vote for smaller government and lower taxes. Admittedly, George Bush broke that trend big time. In conjunction with both sides of the aisle, he abandoned fiscal responsibility with a fervor that would make any Democratic president proud.

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   ledefensetechposted 14 years ago

   It's not about reason, it's about choice.  Medicare denies you choice.  You can't see who you want to, you can't get the treatment you want, most importantly you don't know how much anything costs.  You cannot make reasonable decisions without knowing the cost of something.  Would you buy food without knowing the cost?  How about water?  Electricity?  Each of those things are arguably more important than healthcare, but we don't let the government provide those services.  Why not?

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      Leta Sposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      LDT, that's just UNREASONABLE.  Most of the protesters ARE older people and are ON Medicare.  Your argument, (or at least I think I know your argument, because frankly it is unclear except for that bare-bones, use-all word CHOICE) makes no real amount of sense.
      
      And tell me what you want to know about Medicare choices. Ahem. I worked for Medicare.  I can answer some questions for you, .  Medicare Gold?  Medicare Blue Cross and Blue Shield?  Medicare A, B, C, or Bush's (old) new Drug Benefit?  Are you aware the government farms out all things Medicare to private companies?  I worked for one.
      
      Bleh....

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         ledefensetechposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Sigh.  Yes I am aware that the government gives work away to those who bribe...um contribute to the campaigns of legislators.  That still doesn't mean you made the right decision in giving the money to them. 
         
         Besides you can't claim to speak for anyone on Medicare, you don't know what other decisions they may have made were they not forced to use it.  That is the central issue here.  Forcing someone to do something they don't want to do.  If they do, great, let them, but don't force them or take their ability to decide.

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            Leta Sposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            MY GOD, LDT...
            
            It is clear that you don't know anything about any of this.
            
            Medicare recipients have choice.  Period.  And you are automatically signed up (you will be, too) at age 65.  You will get Part A.  You have the choice to take B.  There is a premium you must pay.  There are also a number of different choices offered and meshed with Medicare through different private insurance companies....Humana Gold, Blue Cross, etc, etc.  Their premium may be more...or different, and they sometimes covered different things...had different choices as far as doctors, etc.
            
            And I said NOTHING about giving business away to those who 'bribe.'  This is the mode or manner of business/govt business, period.  When I held the job, it was under the Bush admin.  The company I worked for was contracted to offer Medicare patients information about Medicare.
            
            And YEP, you always have the choice not to take Medicare B...look out for your own butt--IF you are wealthy enough.  I cannot speak for those, quote, quote, 'forced,' but I know and can tell you stories of the system, snapshot a few years ago.

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               ledefensetechposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               Sigh.  Your definition of choice is being part of the program and getting to choose if you want to be part of the secondary program.  You don't get to choose your doctors, you have to choose among a slate of them.  That's not really choice.  Do your really think the best doctors choose to take Medicare patients?  That's like thinking the Workmen's comp doctors contract with workman's comp because they're good.  I've met those docs and with the exception of one or two, the remaineder obviously graduated at the bottom of their class.  Oh look at that, another government program that takes away your right to choose.
               
               That's what you don't get.  The protesters know that any type of government mandated healthcare will take away choice.  You may not consider that important, but obviously they do.  You might want to actually listen to what they have to say instead of assuming you know better than they do what their concerns are.
               
               Of course you didn't say bribe.  I did.  If you think those companies didn't lobby and give Congressmen money for access to those lawmakers, then you're more naive than I thought.

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                  Leta Sposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  LDT...  I can tell you, there are some very, very fancy costly plans out there, that it is anybody's choice to have, if they have the $$.  Also, some of the Medicare plans are JUST like private company insurance, with doctor networks, et al...
                  
                  You are going all one dimensional here....because it is clear you are at a distinct disadvantage.  I want to repeat--I am not looking at it that way.  And neither, I think, is the Obama Admin.  It is about solving problems.  The system needs an overhaul, it is clear.
                  
                  BTW, I highly, highly recommend that everyone invest in Long Term Care insurance when you get to a certain age, because as it stands, that I know of, you will lose your G-damned house...  I'm completely serious.

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                     ledefensetechposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     You're right, the system needs fixing.  What it doesn't need is for us to subsidize the costs of this thing.  Costs are going through the roof.  Simply paying for it isn't going to change that, in fact it will make things worse.  Think rising college tuition.  The same thing will happen to medical costs if we do some sort of universal insurance.
                     
                     As I've said before, if you really want to lower the cost of something, you must increase the supply of it.  In this case we need more healthcare workers.  People realize this and since medical schools limit the number of students they accept a year, hmmm wonder why they do that?, other areas like nursing, nurse practitioners and physician's assistant's are hot areas to study right now.  That is what is going to meet this demand for healthcare.  When enough of those people are trained, costs will fall for basic healthcare. 
                     
                     Now there are things we can do to help these things along.  One of the easiest things to do is to eliminate the monopoly drug companies have on their formulas.  You'd not need a prescription drug plan because the drug makers would be winnowed down to thde ones who could produce drugs at the least amount o cost.
                     
                     But you'll never hear anything that reasonable mentioned.  Could it be that drug companies bribe...sorry contribute to both parties so that they are sure to have access to power no matter who wins?  Could be.  Same thing with the AMA, you surely don't expect doctors to work under the same conditions as the rest of us, you know, meeting their patient's expectations for care?  Heaven forbid.

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                        Leta Sposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                        Look, what I don't think you understand at a very basic level is that this Obama plan isn't going to change that much, except to help those who fall through the cracks a bit.  We'll pay for those people.
                        
                        I cannot see me, for instance, changing my Blue Cross Blue Shield company insurance.
                        
                        The whole supply/demand thing regarding physicians...well...I'm not sure that isn't disingenuous on your part.  You never mentioned malpractice insurance, etc., and the amount of student loans these people have gotta pay after they get out of school.  And physicians will tell you, , due to managed care, and a combo. of factors...there isn't that much $$$ to be made in medicine any more...
                        
                        ANYWAY!  It's all about something way way way bigger than that, and that is that it is a universal human right for someone to get adequate medical care, despite their pocketbook.  Period. 
                        
                        That's what it is about for me.

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                           ledefensetechposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                           The only right we have is the right to live.  Anything else is a choice.  Funny you should mention malpractice insurance.  One of the reasons medical schools justify limiting the number of students they allow to practice medicine is that they claim to chose only the "best".  Even notice how many of them have some sort of connection with the medical schools?  Doesn't seem that random to me.  It's almost caste-like.  Well maybe that's too strong.  Biased might be a better word. 
                           
                           http://media.www.cm-life.com/media/stor … 0375.shtml
                           
                           Medicaid itself puts a limit on the numbers of doctors they will train.  Were you aware of this?  This cap was passed at a time in which people were talking about the aging population of baby boomers and we knew that we'd need more doctors.  Yet the government is limiting the very resource we need more and more of.  Conflict of interest?

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   Uninvited Writerposted 14 years ago

   See...I told you this discussion would go nowhere. Just around and around and around like every other one...

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      Leta Sposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I think it is because nobody actually reads anything or listens to anything.  They are also extremely caught up in stereotypes, lately...  And appear to just like to spew.
      
      I think for some people (other than many of us whose profession/interest it is to write.....and similar to the elderly protesters), these boards must give them a voice they otherwise might not have, and out comes all the unsubstantiated angst.
      
      The info. is there.  It simply isn't being read...and as the one commenter on the NYtimes blogs said, they simply don't/won't listen to reason.

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         girly_girl09posted 14 years agoin reply to this

         There is also a lot of information in the actual bill, itself. Everything is there in black and white (without bias commentary from EITHER side) if you read the actual text of the bill. I prefer to gather my information from that, as I do when any new legislation is being proposed. As someone who has read a substantial portion of the proposed legislation, I do not believe this is the best choice for America. Certainly not at this time. I have read countless bills, some incredibly disturbing, but this 'takes the cake'.

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            Leta Sposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            And can you outline your concerns, GG in a consumable manner?
            
            I am convinced to support it due to experiences working with Medicare and information from other reliable sources, studying other systems--English & Canadian--plus my belief that universal health care is a human right, plus my left-leaning philosophies.
            
            But some may want to see valid concerns that are not paranoia based.  That's all I've seen thus far, frankly.

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               girly_girl09posted 14 years agoin reply to this

               Definitely, I must get some sleep right now, but I will certainly take the time tomorrow to do this for you guys.
               
               I could give some talking points right now, but I don't want to just give my opinion without referring to the actual text of the bill...that is a pet peeve of mine!!! (I know a lot of people that do this on both sides)...
               
               Personally, I like to see actual text from the bill and form my opinion off of that.
               
               The fact of the matter is, there are scare tactics coming from BOTH sides on this issue.
               
               Here is a link to the actual text of the bill:
               
               http://waysandmeans.house.gov/media/pdf … 001xml.pdf

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   jiberishposted 14 years ago

   Seems like these 'troublemakers' are actually the elderly, who actually read the bill and are concerned about what's in it.  I went to my town hall meeting, and most of these people had the bill printed out and highlighted, or have already been involved with others who have read it.  I agree with them, they should raise thier voices, especially when some of these elected officials, who by the way work for the public, belittle the elderly for being concerned about a Bill that no one in congress actually read. Then, even the potus lies about what's in it.  I read the bill, and all thier concerns are warranted.

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   Leta Sposted 14 years ago

   Well.... (and I didn't read the article you've provided, thus far)...I don't think you can blame the Govt. for the 'fraternity' of medical schools in the U.S.
   
   I've been, um, associated (lol) with a few doctors (well, mainly med students and residents...kinda funny how that always turned out..BUT...moving along).  I can tell you that they DO NOT have lives.  The crap they have to learn is kinda silly (according to them, it is mainly rote memorization and isn't usually needed for their practice).  They LIVE at the hospital as a 4th year and as a resident.  As a resident, they are making approx. $8 and hour, due to the # of hours they put in.  It is SO bad that New York actually put a limit on the number of hours they could put in (it isn't unusual for them not to sleep for days...which is f*ing irresponsible and part of some stupid fraternal 'hazing' crap thing if you ask me).
   
   The profession of physician has always been respected. Always has been...  My broad philosophical opinion is that in America, we have associated it with the boys club and WEALTH for too long.  In Europe, you see the same respect, but not the astronomical salaries and other weird stuff that goes along with it.
   
   I'll read your source...  Get back to you later.  I really should do something else other than just post here tonight. 

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      ledefensetechposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      That's why I'm going to be a PA.  Not nearly as many bills and not nearly as much nonsense to go through.  As for the fraternization, well that's part and parcel of they way doctors are limited in this country.  So yeah, they do have something to do with it.  Can you think of any other profession which we intentionally limit the number of people who can be accepted in it?  Offhand I can't.
      
      Have a good evening.

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    annvansposted 14 years ago

    What really bothers me is when people were talking about how the elderly would not get as good of care.  If this would be true, shame, shame, shame.  Whoever makes the healthcare plan and whoever passes it should also have this same insurance.  I think people are outraged because they do not know exactly what everything will be with the new healthcare and they cannot get the answers that they need to make a final decision on whether or not to support it.  Somewhere, someone needs to write up all of the info and send it out soon so that people can see what it is all about.  I think doing this would stop the bickering at meetings.  Sending everyone the information on healthcare plans could also stir up another mess.
    
    Too bad this plan could not be used as a back up or that something could be done about the insurance companies not accepting those with pre-existing conditions.

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       ledefensetechposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       This bill is about 1,000 pages long.  There's now way it can be anything but a mess.  Remember these are the same people who wrote the tax code and even the IRS has a hard time deciphering it.

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          annvansposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Yeah, maybe that is what makes people wonder and wanna run out and get some answers.  Sounds like a mess. lol.  I guess those people will stay in an uproar until they get the answers they want though.

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